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katyahina · 11 days ago

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Gwyn's family tree members references and genetics (! slight update on 12/30/2024)

(An ask reply to an anon)

(A graph for convenience)

Alright, I will go with what we can certainly make out of the family tree! ...almost. There are definitely some missing links! You don't have to accept all of my suggestions here and only focus on 100% confirmed ones, but I will explain why I added them! Let's start in order!

Gwyn, his mother, his uncle Lloyd and... sister? cousin? fifth known child?

Unfortunately, yes, we can't be sure of Gwyn's eyes color since it appears to be just reflection of fire, nor of his hair color as he looks pretty aged! However, Lloyd is his uncle, as well as certain locations connected with the Way of White stuff (Sunlit Altar, altar in Undead Paris that Reah prays at, and altar in Catacombs where you find Darkmoon Seanse ring) all feature a statue of a woman in a crown, that holds an infant with a sword:

I do not believe it is mother of Nameless King at all, since 1) statues of his were destroyed, so why keep the infant one? 2) his trademark weapon is spear, not sword, but Gwyn's IS sword and 3) this statue appears to be some 'common' object connected with Way of White!

Now, I am going to do something I normally dread to do. I am going to..... *swallows nervously* quote the text of the items descriptions in this post, instead of posting screenshots. :s Okay this will be VERY trying, but I have to do it to fit within images limit per post!

WHITE SEANCE RING

A divine ring entrusted to the head bishop of the Way of White and apostle to Allfather Lloyd, uncle to Lord Gwyn. It grants additional attunement slots. The head bishop of the Way of White is the guardian of law and caste, and one of the great royals of Thorolund.

LLOYD'S SWORD RING

Ring given to knights of the Way of White. Depicts Allfather Lloyd's Sword of Law. Boosts attack power when HP is full. Much time has passed since the worship of Lloyd was common in the Way of White. The clerics of Carim had always strongly asserted that Lloyd was a derivative fraud, and that the Allfather title was self-proclaimed. (Japanese script has 'collateral relative' (傍系) rather than 'derivative fraud')

GOLD COIN

Coin made of gold, with Allfather Lloyd and his white halo shown on its face. (...)

Lloyd have been a very relevant figure amongst clerics, taking Gwyn's role after his death until Gwyndolin grew some backbone, and 'white halo' is basically a symbol of the Way of White! However, as an uncle, he'd have to be a brother of either Gwyn's mother or father (I choose mother), and Gwyn's parents are never mentioned... I assume they died earlier. Maybe, like the statue with Gwyn in infancy suggests, too early and Gwyn was basically raised by Lloyd!

We will get to Seath and Shira properly in due time, but in Japanese, Seath's description uses 外戚, which means in-law, related by marriage to a (female) relative of Gwyn! I don't think it is Gwynevere; she is only ever stated to marry Flann, besides, Yorshka calling Gwynevere a sister while also being child of Seath feels like a dealbreaker to me! I don't think it is Fillianore either, since she was given away to keep Pygmy away! But, Shira is a "daughter of the Duke", and also can use lightning that can be a gene if both Gwyn and NK owning it is of any indication!

The thing is... I am not sure who this mysterious relative of Gwyn is, specifically. Sister? Cousin? Unmentioned child? (if Gwyndolin and Filianore were never "showcased" unlike NK and Gwynevere, maybe someone else was dodging the spotlight? heh) Lloyd's element appears to be simply sheer, clear white light, in it's purest form, whereas Gwyn's element is sunlight and lightning, so I feel like this relative at least has to be of the same generation as Gwyn himself or below (like NK)! But, yes..... this family tree is really weird, right?

Nameless King / Faraam

(This ( x ) video by Crest)

He is another character with whom I am not sure! It appears that he not always had his wonderful mane, but I am not certain whether his hair always were white or not! Unlike other known children of Gwyn, that appear to combine Gwyn's traits with second parent's, NK is also kind of just "Gwyn at home", having nothing much to stand out by his own...? Gwyn's hair is most likely grey from aging, and this could apply to NK as well since he lived for a very long time. He also looks like a husk now!

On the other hand, white/grey hair might be an actual gene running in the family that doesn't depend on age! Just write NK down, this is something that will be useful later!

+ I played around with the idea that Velka could have been his mother since crows are following him too until I got a better idea, but this would be just a fun headcanon! Here ( x ) is a short post if you want to read, but in simple words; Caffrey Goddess of Fortune might have been his mother, to which he owns the chance to rebuld as God of War Faraam instead after having lost everything, who is also a sister of Velka as someone connected to birds too with the wings!

Gwynevere and her mother Fina / Nehma

Thankfully, Gwynevere HAS decent references, and could even shed a light (ba dum tss) on some genetics!

Her eyes look rather orange, just like the sunlight associated with her healing miracles (Bountiful Sunlight and Soothing Sunlight), yet there is a little grey circle at the pupil! x) It might become relevant later! Fun fact: she has distinct moles on her body ( x )! Though you can observe from her textures too:

As for Fina, I really think she is a SUPER likely candidate for her mother!

Notice how her symbol is Estus Flask, and Gwynevere is strongly associated with healing! As for why Nehma = Fina:

NAME-ENGRAVED RING

A special ring that can be engraved with the name of a god. Becomes easier to connect to worlds of players who chose the same god. There are countless vestiges of long-lost gods in the ruins of Drangleic. Or perhaps they are the very same gods as ours, only known by different names.

Another case right here is Pharis being named Evlana in Drangleic! Similarly, Fina got another name, since she IS Goddess of Love!

EMBRACED ARMOR OF FAVOR

Armor of Lautrec the Embraced, representing the goddess Fina's love. The goddess's arms wrap around it, as if to embrace the wearer.

^ This line makes me wonder whether Fina was not a regular humanoid God, but had literally golden body! There is a nameless and faceless Blacksmith Deity in the setting whose death gave birth to Titanite Demons, so why not another atypical God like this? I can imagine her being mostly non-physical save for some... obvious places

ESTUS FLASK

The Undead treasure these dull green flasks. Fill with Estus at bonfire. Fills HP. The Estus Flasks are linked to the Fire Keepers. The Dark Tales also make reference: An emerald flask, from the Keeper's soul She lives to protect the flame, And dies to protect it further.

^ Lautrec kills Anastacia and takes her soul, and his next destination past that point is Anor Londo, but specifically the hall that leads to "Gwynevere's" chamber! He made Fina's love his whole guidance, Estus Flask is a symbol of Fina in Dark Souls 2 menu, Estus Flask is made of a Soul of a Fire Keeper, Gwynevere seems to be very much connected with love and healing too, and he goes to where "she" is! I would not put it past him that "Gwynevere" messed up his radar, he seems to act irrational in his delusion about being "loved by Fina", but you can see everything about this questline is thematically connected! ...there is also the fact that if Lautrec's armor is of any indication, Fina was wearing a crown! Gwyn was the king, so another one crowned would be his wife, right?

I think whereas Gwynevere didn't inherit Fina's (presumed) golden body and turned out a regular humanoid deity, the orange glint of her eyes might be Fina's gene, a color of healing (the liquid in Estus Flask)! Gwyn's eye color might actually be grey and only show in her eyes vaguely! (This is a surprise tool that will help us later). Brown hair might belong to either Fina, or to Gwyn when he was way younger! Or.. to Gwyn's parent? Put a pin on this!

Rosaria, Anri and Horace

I think Rosaria's line is the furthest diluted from the divine ancestry, since having children with a human resulted in JUST humans, not sort of Demigods! Also, Irithyllian preset does say these humans have "features of old gods"!

(Video by Bonfire VN ( x ))

Unfortunately, Rosaria doesn't have eye texture! Grey skin looks cool, but oh well. I suppose it is more fair to take the look from the final version, which is just normal, if only slightly less saturated!

Her hair appears to be not black but actually just dark grey, like Filianore's, however, Anri, Horace and average Irithyllian appear to have black hair!

(From this ( x ) page, without Hollowing filter)

dggsdfsfd Yeah I know, most of Dark Souls 3 face data is just bald, and their hair color data is just black, but! I think it is kind of "legit" since you can see their eyebrows, that are black too! Sorry for a cursed joke about Artorias though, he does have black hair and I just thought it was a funny idea that he did sleep with Gwynevere at some point- look, Gods were wery proud of his accomplishments against the Abyss and even gave him that medal ok? fsjjfd xD

Why Anri's Hollowing is "regular" and Horace's is green-ish that was introduced in Drangleic is another topic tbh. But, I think that Anri takes more after Rosaria, whereas Horace takes more after Aldrich! Anri's grey eyes are from Rosaria, and I think Aldrich would have blue eyes like Horace's! look it is thematically appropriate right?

Also an idea: maybe Anri's gender thing should be taken at a face value? Although basically just a human at this rate, they are still a kid of a mother of rebirth, so maybe they legitimately can have either biological gender for the purpose of being able to have children with any person? Just an ability inherited from Rosaria, because this is what Rosaria's power is about! What do you think?

Flann and Dancer of the Boreal Valley

Flann was a God of Fire, and Dancer is stated to be a direct descendant in the royal line!

RING OF THE SUN PRINCESS (DS1)

This ring is granted to those who enter a Covenant with Gwynevere, daughter of Lord Gwyn and the Princess of Sunlight. This slightly warm ring boosts the synergy of miracles. The Princess of Sunlight Gwynevere left Anor Londo along many other deities, and later became wife to Flame God Flann.

SUN PRINCESS RING (DS3)

(...) Gwynevere left her home with a great many other deities, and became a wife and a mother, raising several heavenly children.

I think that the place the Gods of Anor Londo left to was Heide in Drangleic, and even there we arrive long past its ruin! Not certain where they are now and how many generations of these children appeared, but at least some direct children or even descendants returned into Lordran continent! Aldia, Creighton and Gilligan travelled from Drangleic to Lordran continent, so why not some of these relatives too? (Considering how oddly nobody in Drangleic knows shit about Lordran continent despite it being literally there oversees, I take it as it got concealed for undefined time, and maybe these descendants of Gwynevere, along with some other Gods, opened the path back to it?)

SOUL OF THE DANCER

Soul of the dancer. One of the twisted souls, steeped in strength. Use to acquire many souls, or transpose to extract its true strength. The Pontiff Sulyvahn bestowed a double-slashing sword upon a distant daughter of the formal royal family, ordering her to serve first as a dancer, and then as an outrider knight, the equivalent to exile.

(In Japanese, 旧王家の末裔 - 'descendant of the Old Royal Family')

DANCER'S CROWN

Crown worn by the Dancer of the Boreal Valley. The mirage-like aurora veil is said to be an article of the old gods, permitted only for direct descendants of the old royal family.

Dancer can conjure fire in her hands, which the Pontiff and Fire Witches who use the Profaned Flame can't do, which might imply hers is all natural, and does this smoke-like thing when using her dark magic sword (which is, again, unlike the Pontiff's actual arsenal with HIS dark magic sword). Considering Flann is God of Flame, her capacity for using fire and ash "naturally" convinced me that she descends from Gwynevere and him!

Unfortunately, nothing to latch onto considering her or Flann's appearance, really.. But I'd suggest that if she takes his abilities more than Gwynevere's, whatever you imagine Flann looking like, she'd look more like him as well!

Queen of Lothric, Lothric, Lorian, Oceiros and Ocelotte

Well, first things first: I do not think Queen of Lothric IS Gwynevere! There are no damning evidences for this!

For one, Gwynevere's name is not forgotten or obscured by the events of Dark Souls 3, it is mentioned in descriptions and by Yorshka, so why would it be omitted under just 'Queen of Lothric'! Second, Gwynevere is still referred to as a princess consistently, she never queened-up! The only exception from this is illusion of Gwynevere calling herself a queen, and... well, it was needed, to support the legend. :p Third, Rosaria is also linked to items associated with Gwynevere, same as Queen of Lothric, so this is just descent, really!

But what truly cemented my opinion is that in Japanese script, Queen of Lothric is said to be compared with 'the' Goddess of Bounty and Grace! (Taken from this ( x ) document by Last Protagonist, it is for Bloodborne but it has a Dark Souls WIP folder). Why would Gwynevere be compared with herself? :p

(Upper image of the ribbon in statue by Lokey's Lore ( x )) The ribbons seem to miss in the concept art, but I feel like they got added to further hint at descent rather than to... well, add a plot hole...? x) Miyazaki initially wanted Gwynevere to have motherly vibe and the design we have now only exists because the guy who drew that concept liked it too much, so maybe his initial idea for her got a second chance in another character?

Like I said, the grey in the eyes WAS important, because, look! The brothers' eyes ARE grey! :p Their hair is actually very grey as well; with a very slight hint of blond for Lothric and slight hint of brown for Lorian, but you can tell game's lighting makes their hair look way more saturated than they actually are! Lothric's eyes are also blind of course, you can more clearly see from the texture that the pupil is ruined..

Ocelotte's model is a cut content, but he really has grey skin, and some crystals! Notice that Oceiros is also lacking scales, but is growing fungi-like things that are otherwise found in Vagrants!

In Dark Souls 2, essence of Seath lives on same as Gwyn's, Witch's and Nito's but in a form of nearly an "element", and corrupts the Duke of Tseldora into madness, driving him to indulge in mad experiments and create weird beings! It is possible that this happens again in Dark Souls 3 when now the vessel of "Seath" becomes Oceiros instead and similar descent into madness repeats! Very ironically, Seath DID reach immortality if you think of it, but he no longer realises that he did fhdfhds As for Vagrants, I wonder whether it was intentional too, since Seath did experiment with marine life forms quite a lot (Pisacas, Giant Clams)...?

I think the grey eyes and hair is linked to Queen of Lothric; the orange hues must have weakened over generations, and it is not the last of grey hair you'll see x) Really have no idea what Oceiros would've passed onto them, though...? Ocelotte's grey skin is most likely a dragonic trait.

Gundyr, Gertrude and their parents

GUNDYR'S HELM

Ancient helm of a set of cast iron armor, belonging to Champion Gundyr. Modeled after a former king. Gundyr, or the Belated Champion, was bested by an unknown warrior. He then became sheath to a coiled sword in the hopes that someday, the first flame would be linked once more.

古い王 - king from long ago, king from the past, etc

Gundyr doesn't appear to be one of Oceiros' children, but I've been thinking about it for a while.. I figured out what made the most sense for his story is being a collateral relative to the twin princes, considering he was sent out to replace Lothric (well, this is what he was told..) It will be a tangent to explain, so here ( x ) are my conclusions on what exactly happened with Gundyr!

Granted, I might end up making him more of a distant relation than her direct son from previous marriage- it'd be even better, to be honest! But, this is a base draft of the family tree. His helmet resembles his ancestor, that, again, would work better as someone several generations apart from him!

UPD 12/30/2024: I did decide it made more sence if "ancient king" was... well, ancient fdgfdsd And appeared to be ancestry of Oceiros instead, with Gundyr being collaterally related to Oceiros! I am not strong with familial terms so I am not sure what this relation is called now if I move him further than being half-brothers with the twins and Ocelotte :o Just thought it worked better!

BOUNTIFUL LIGHT

Miracle taught to knights of Gertrude, holy maiden to the Queen. Gradually restores a large amount of HP. The Heavenly Daughter is said to be the Queen's child.

DIVINE PILLARS OF LIGHT

Miracle of Gertrude, the Heavenly Daughter. Brings down multiple pillars of light in the vicinity. The Queen's holy maiden Gertrude was visited by an angel, who revealed this tale to her.(...)

The fact that her own daughter is simultaneously described as her servant of sorts gave me an impression of being the bastard child! I guess one thing Gwynevere certainly passes down to her descendants is sleeping around, except this is ACTUALLY Fina's fault hdhfshfgsdh

Seath, Gwyndolin, Filianore and Priscilla

I think this is apparent that Gwyndolin is a child between Gwyn and Seath, as serpents in this lore are "imperfect dragons", and Seath himself is inherently connected to Moonlight element (Moonlight Butterflies he created, Moonlight Greatword being literally made from a part of his body)!

COVETOUS GOLD SERPENT RING

The serpent is an imperfect dragon and symbol of the Undead. Its habit of devouring prey even larger than itself has led to an association with gluttony. This gold ring, engraved with the serpent, boosts its wearer's item discovery, so that more items can be amassed.

MOONLIGHT GREATSWORD

This sword, one of the rare dragon weapons, came from the tail of Seath the Scaleless, the pale white dragon who betrayed his own. Seath is the grandfather of sorcery, and this sword is imbued with his magic, which shall be unleashed as a wave of moonlight.

And, yes, needless to mention that Gwyndolin is a sorcerer. Sorcery is THE Seath's thing!

I would actually take Aldrich's render with a grain of salt; right, we don't know what Gwyndolin's eyes were like in Dark Souls 1, but also Gwyndolin has white/greyish skin, when Aldrich using this body has a pretty much human skin tone! The hair on Aldrich also appears to be way more white (a trait of being corrupted by Dark, check Four Kings or Abyss Watchers), not grey like Gwyndolin's 🤔 I guess his look is more of an approximation than literally just using Gwyndolin's body! Though, pale eye color can still be used as a headcanon! Just maybe less dead looking..?

Filianore also has this grey hair with a very slight hint of brown that might as well be neglected! Her eyes also appear to be corrupted by sort of wooden texture, and after time runs wild, she honestly reminds me of what Elana looks like...? Turning into wood is a common sign of devolution in this setting as everything that isn't a Dragon evolved from the trees! But... furthermore, connected with darkness.

It is Humanity when it is not running wild! Four Kings becoming very tree-like is the quickest example! The void-face type of Giants also turn into trees upon devolving and, interestingly enough, their particular souls have a spot of darkness within! Further clue towards Filianore having some Dark in her by nature is the very fact that she was sent away with Pygmy lords! Would not a God that actually has some Dark/Humanity in them be THE best candidate to keep them in check.... and the one most likely to remain safe there in Gwyn's eyes, you know?

Priscilla has a little scales and eyes, unlike Seath, despite being most likely his child! Seath being white-colored is accentuated, and so is her being "stark-white" crossbreed!

SOUL OF PRISCILLA

(...) Use the soul of this crossbreed bastard child and antithesis to all life to acquire a huge amount of souls, or to create a unique weapon.

LIFEHUNT SCYTHE

Scythe born from the soul of Priscilla, the stark white crossbreed trapped inside the Painted World of Ariamis. Even the Gods feared Priscilla's lifehunt ability, and in the hands of a mortal, its power will turn upon its wielder.

I think Priscilla and Yorshka have to have a shared second parent, since you can get a miracle version of Priscilla's Lifehunt Scythe when Aldrich dreams of Yorshka! At the same time, Gwyndolin is the lastborn of Gwyn yet Yorshka is their younger sister, nor Priscilla or Yorshka are recognised as Gods by the narrative! Basically.. Gwyn got cucked dfggffd I keep telling you all and you don't believe me!!

Okay, but what connects Priscilla to Darkness is definitely not from Seath's ancestry, as Dragons are beyond Light or Dark! I absolutely agree with the idea that Priscilla and Velka were connected; Velka's crow people and some clerics are in the Painted World of Ariamis, Occult Ember is here, Priscilla's Dagger has Occult affinity, in Dark Souls 3 the Crows worship Priscilla, there is a statue of mother holding a child... But, I think Velka rather adopted her than was her biological mother! Another thing is that Velka is a "heretical" deity, implying she made Darkness her own weapon rather than was naturally aligned with it or corrupted by it to the core! What Priscilla inherited though, had to be inherited directly, biologically, naturally and not learned, since her "ability" manifested since infancy:

PECULIAR DOLL

A strange doll in strange dress. There once was an abomination who had no place in this world. She clutched this doll tightly, and eventually was drawn into a cold and lonely painted world.

The Daughters of the Dark in Dark Souls 2 are fragments of Manus' own darkness, and their elements naturally oppose everything about Gods and their world! Nashandra's element is Death and Alsanna's element is Ice/Cold, both opposing Life and Fire respectively! Elana is the devolution into a tree life form, whereas Nadalia is ash - both oppose the concept of time as Age of Fire created it! Elana by devolution, Nadalia by exhaustion as ash is final result of burning, when nothing IS left to burn! And in every game, death more blatantly goes hand in hand with the darkness, too.

Priscilla embodies two of these: Ice and Death! She is even connected with invisibility, too! At the same time, since Gwyndolin's hair is AKTYALY grey, Yorshka's hair is brown and Shira's hair is brown also and was white only in the concept, her white hair might also be result of the Dark settling within, not same as her white fur!

As for who IS that mysterious parent that passed the 'Darkness gene' to Filianore, Priscilla and Yorshka...? Okay, here I will slide a theory about how Caitha of all people fits the role well ( x ) compiled very well by @val-of-the-north, if you want to read! I really liked it and honestly think it fits within lore! Besides, Gwyn sure likes to flirt with the danger, as scared as he is. 🙄 He was enemy of the dragons but let Seath close and kept Midir alive, he feared humans but still trusted Four Kings... would not put it past him to look at someone aligned with the Darkness and go "I should not put my dick in it, however," fhsdhff

Shira and Yorshka

(Shira's face data from this ( x ) page)

Her hair is light brown, or perhaps dark blond, in the final version? Her eyes are also green though, even if not as radiant in color as Priscilla's! Her name literally means 'white' though, and she is 'daughter of the duke'! You can also see the original intention for her was white hair! or..... is it grey hair? AGAIN? x)

I am not sure why she turned out to be so humanoid, not showing draconian features whatsoever! Perhaps how many features manifest is a random chance, and her mom's genes just turned out to be much stronger than Seath's! Though this makes me wonder if Seath's "intended" eye color is green, and that would be the color if he had eyes?

(Images by Moonlight Ruin on Twitter ( x ))

I think Yorshka has her mother's eyes, as they do not have draconian narrow pupil! (Well, if it was Caitha, she very likely has blue eye and red eye, and this is just the blue!)

Seath is not only white, but also cyan/blue/purple/pink, and Yorshka displays these features! As well as taking after the mysterious parent with the 'Dark genetics', specifically with the ability manifesting as Death / Lifehunt shared with Priscilla:

LIFEHUNT SCYTHE (DS3)

Miracle of Aldrich, Devourer of Gods. Steals HP of foes using an illusory scythe. Aldrich dreamt as he slowly devoured the God of the Darkmoon. In this dream, he perceived the form of a young, pale girl in hiding.

All things considered, I feel like brown hair gene comes from somewhere in Gwyn's family, likely from his mother? However, the grey hair gene apparently suppresses it on every occasion!

Dunnel and Painter

I just think Dunnel is a likely candidate for whoever was father of the Painter:

PYROMANCER'S PARTING FLAME

The pyromancy flame of Livid Pyromancer Dunnel that attracts the echoes of the death. When Dunnel lost his hideous spouse, he gave his own pyromancy flame as an offering, which transformed into a parting flame. Not long after, Dunnel became a mad spirit, cursed to wander the lands.

Priscilla is referred to as an abomination within the lore, and hideous spouse is not quite far off! It clearly refers to the context of what life itself fears rather than... well, like, her actual appearance. And Priscilla is connected with Death, whereas combining his flame with her changed it into something connected with Death as well! He also invades in a place that looks a lot like her arena in Dark Souls 1!

Bro just looks like old Patches -_-

(Video by BonfireVN ( x ))

Her skin is definitely more grey and dragon-ish, but I am not sure to which family member I could link orange eye color to :') Just the fact that she is meant to envision the Flame, I guess?

_________________________

Okay, thank you for giving me a reason to organise all this! I thought I'd just dump some references together, but it turned out to be sort of an analysis, and I figured some useful things for myself too! So, my conclusions are:

Grey hair gene is very real, it might even be natural hair color of Gwyn and Nameless King, not reliant on their age! Gwyndolin's hair is also grey, and Aldrich's version having white hair is reasonable since Darkness corruption seems to cause white hair!

Brown hair gene most likely appears from Gwyn's mother, or other relative of his

Descendants of Gwynevere tend to have grey hair and grey eyes, seems like the brightness of sunlight have worn out over time genetically in this family

Dancer is the only known 'apparent' descendant of Gwynevere and Flann, others appear to be either much more diluted or not having ties to Flann at all

There is a 'Darkness gene' running in the family in Filianore, Priscilla and Yorshka that manifests in different forms like it was with Daughters of Dark (ice and death with Priscilla, death with Yorshka, defiance of time with trees/ash with Filianore)

Mixing with a dragon genetically has very random results, from apparent to absolutely indiscernable

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