#especially if they read the odyssey

[thestellargoblin]

i swear to god, if i see one more "poor calypso, she deserved better, such a tragic unrequited love story 🥺🥺🥺" post/tiktok/content/literally anything online, something is getting brutally stabbed

[lyculuscaelus]

So lately I’ve been seeing a lot of posts asking people to stop trying to make Odysseus look nice in their works cuz he’s a “messed-up person in the mythology”. Your opinion is valid however I have but one thing to point out:

You want to know who started all this? Who started to “make Odysseus look nice” in the first place?

It’s Homer. It’s nobody else but Homer himself.

A non-Homeric Odysseus would try to murder people out of his own interests. He’d murder Palamedes without remorse (and we’d be cheering over this but it’s a murder after all), he’d attempt to murder Diomedes just to get the Palladium himself, he’d volunteer to kill Astyanax…meanwhile you wouldn’t find any mention of either Palamedes or Nauplius in Homer’s poems, neither did he mention anything abt the Palladium heist (and Diomedes necessity did not happen until Conon’s version), the death of Astyanax, the distribution of war prizes, etc. And all the details in the Odyssey seemed to deny the existence of Nauplius’s vengeance at all, so Odysseus would not take any of the blame.

A non-Homeric Odysseus would be depicted as “cruel, treacherous”, meanwhile in book 10 of the Iliad Odysseus was not mentioned to have killed anyone during the marauding, neither did he promise Dolan anything at all. The negative interpretations are denied by these details subtly put by Homer.

A non-Homeric Odysseus would be widely known as a “coward” for only shooting arrows from afar. But Homer gave him a spear and had him absolutely slaying in both the Iliad and the Odyssey. That part of Ajax’s speech was invalid already.

Most importantly—a non-Homeric Odysseus would be having kids everywhere else, and the loyalty to his own wife as seen in the Odyssey is no where to be found. Meanwhile his lineage was a single-son line made by Zeus in the Odyssey, and his love for Penelope was one of his main drives, especially seen in book 5 of the Odyssey. He loved his family as a loving parent—something you don’t get to see in most of the non-Homeric writings—for most of the time they followed a different tradition indeed, in which Odysseus wasn’t half as nice as in the Odyssey.

TL;DR: in case you haven’t noticed, the characterization of the Homeric Odysseus was quite different from a non-Homeric version of Odysseus. It’s not that Homer didn’t know of the existence of other versions—he knew them too well, which is why in his version of the story, you don’t get to see any mention of them.

[sigsfigs]

jane of all trades

@professorfcknmoriarty

[gingermintpepper]

hi, i haven't read the iliad and the odyssey but want to - do u have a specific translation you recommend? the emily wilson one has been going around bc, y'know, first female translator of the iliad and odyssey into english, but i was wondering on if you had Thoughts

Hi anon! Sorry for the somewhat late response and I'm glad you trust me with recommendations! Full, disclosure, I am somewhat of a traditionalist when it comes to translations of the source text of the Iliad + Odyssey combo wombo, which means I tend to prefer closeness in literal verbiage over interpretation of the poetic form of these epics - for that reason, my personal preferred versions of the Odyssey and Iliad both are Robert Fitzgerald's. Because both of these translations (and his Aeneid!) were done some 50+ years ago (63 for his original Odyssey tl, 50 flat for his Iliad and 40 for his Aeneid) the English itself can be a bit difficult to read and the syntax can get confusing in a lot of places, so despite my personal preferences, I wouldn't recommend it for someone who is looking to experience the Iliad + Odyssey for the very first time.

For an absolute beginner, someone who has tried to read one or both of these epics but couldn't get into it or someone who has a lot of difficulty with concentrating on poetry or long, winding bits of prose, I fully and wholeheartedly recommend Wilson's translation! See, the genius of Emily Wilson's Iliad + Odyssey isn't that she's a woman who's translated these classics, it's that she's a poet who's adapted the greek traditional poetic form of dactylic hexameter into the english traditional poetic form of iambic pentameter. That alone goes a very very long way to making these poems feel more digestible and approachable - iambic pentameter is simply extremely comfortable and natural for native english speakers' brains and the general briskness of her verbiage helps a lot in getting through a lot of the problem books that people usually drop the Iliad or Odyssey in like Book 2 of the Iliad or Book 4 of the Odyssey. I think it's a wonderful starting point that allows people to familiarise themselves with the source text before deciding if they want to dig deeper - personally, researching Wilson's translation choices alone is a massive rabbit hole that is worth getting into LOL.

The happy medium between Fitzgerald's somewhat archaic but precise syntax and Wilson's comfortable meter but occasionally less detailled account is Robert Fagles' Iliad + Odyssey. Now, full disclosure, I detest how Fagles handles epithets in both of his versions, I think they're far too subtle which is something he himself has talked at length about in his translation notes, but for everything else - I'd consider his translations the most well rounded of english adaptations of this text in recent memory. They're accurate but written in plain English, they're descriptive and detailled without sacrificing a comfortable meter and, perhaps most importantly, they're very accessible for native english speaking audiences to approach and interact with. I've annotated my Fagles' volumes of these books to heaven and back because I'm deeply interested in a lot of the translation decisions made, but I also have to specifically compliment his ability to capture nuance in the characters' of these poems in a way I don't often see. He managed to adapt the ambivalence of ancient greek morality in a way I scarcely see and that probably has a hand in why I keep coming back to his translations.

Now, I know this wasn't much of a direct recommendation but as I do not know you personally, dear anon, I can't much make a direct recommendation to a version that would best appeal to your style of reading. Ideally, I'd recommend that you read and enjoy all three! But, presuming that you are a normal person, I suggest picking which one is most applicable for you. I hope this helps! 🥰

[chrysanthemumandthesword]

I'm going a little nuts. I've just read the Odyssey (they only had me read the Iliad in high school, so I'm correcting that oversight, lol). I've looked at multiple different translations because the library/Guttenberg Project are free so comparing/contrasting is easy and fun! I've also listened to EPIC. And like... it's an adaptation with an obvious set of themes drawn from the original they want to explore over others more predominately present, so there will be differences. It's also a modern interpretation? So like... it's not going to 100% adhere to ancient Greek values? Like a modern audience is going to have some qualms about baby murder, so if you want to adapt it that's going to have to be addressed (if you don't take the coward's way out and just shove every war crime on Neoptolemus - or go the full historian route and fully write from an ancient Greek perspective which may alienate new readers but could also be dope? It's subjective).

Like, we all should know an adaptation (especially a modern one) is never a substitute for reading the original work. But adaptations can also bring new or expanded perspectives on the original work, expand on or address themes from the work in a new way, as well as inspire people to read the original. And honestly? A popular adaptation should motivate people to read/watch the original - this is exactly what kicked my ass in gear to read the Odyssey!

I'd also say don't hero-worship the original. Especially if you haven't read it in a while and have a knee-jerk negative reaction to any new adaptation. The original works should still be read but let people have fun! Don't criticize, just say if you want more content/context read the original! I would, for example, never criticize someone for loving Muppets Treasure Island or Treasure Planet even though they don't stick one to one on the original Treasure Island story - even though it was my favorite book growing up. I think they both are made with a love of the source material, but are changed for the medium + the specific themes they want to address.

I don't know. If an adaption makes a story (especially and old one) more accessible it should usually be celebrated and met with encouragement to look deeper into the source material instead of acting superior - especially if you haven't read the source material in a while either. Let people have fun and encourage them to explore! Don't shame them for liking an adaptation, especially when it's made to expand the reach of a wonderful work to a younger, wider audience.

[theboykingsmichaelsword]

having freshly rewatched supernatural imagine my surprise when i see teen!dean asking wtf yarrow is in s10e12 about a boy and sam having to explain not only what it is but what its used for

when way back in s2e8 aka the iconic crossroad blues not only was dean the one who noticed the yarrow first(even if he couldn't think of the name) he was also already aware that they're significant in occult practices

you know

in case you needed proof of how inconsistent spn's writing is and/or the later seasons' writing team's commitment to the dumbification of dean winchester

[itsajollyjester]

I've had a few people say I should try and read every translation of the Odyssey

I regret to inform you that I tried that and it ended in me reading none of them

[unsweetenedsugar]

As much as I like the musical, I still found it a lost potential by making Odysseus a good person at the beginning of the story. This is Odysseus AFTER the Trojan war, already cunning, sacker of cities, complicated. A man brought nothing but war and destruction back to a home that had changed so much when he was gone.

A tale of innocent-at-heart boy growing into manhood and potentially a ‘monster’ would be much more fitting with Telemachus as a protagonist.

Imagine Telemachus who had listened to all those heroic stories about his father and looked up to the father he didn’t even remember only to have the man and a goddess tell him ‘ruthless is mercy upon ourselves’.

Imagine the moral struggles when Telemachus was asked to kill the maids/slaves by his father’s order. He might have grown up together with some of the girls. But it’s words from his father, a hero, and a goddess, so is this what it takes to be a man?

[ninadove]

I'm honestly shocked that since Emotion/Representation aired I've yet to see anyone do anything at all with Felix and Mary Shelley's Frankenstein??? I think about it every day it's literally THE Felix piece of media. It's his entire character thesis. What are we doing guys

I KNOW I WAS JUST THINKING ABOUT IT THE OTHER DAY

To be fair I have seen a few people headcanoning it as one of Felix’s favourite books (Which yes. Absolutely. 1,000,000%) but there hasn’t been any fics/art/edits/etc. about it yet to my knowledge. My copy is at my parents’ and in French but I am tempted to find an English PDF since it’s been public domain for a good while now. The web weave potential is insane.

I have many thoughts about Felix and literature in general… I have him quote Cyrano de Bergerac all the time in my fics, for example. I was thinking of starting a list of works of art and literature he’d enjoy, so I’ll take this as a sign to get writing! I can get my fandom friends to make some suggestions as well! 📝

Edit: @bittersweetresilience got us covered, our honour is safe 💜🦚

[shittywriterbrain]

I JUST REALISED THIS IS ABOUT HOW THE SKY AND THE SEA WERE DESCRIBED IN ANCIENT GREEK TEXTS LIKE AT LEAST HOMER DESCRIBED THE SEA AS WINE-COLORED AND SHIT I FUCKING LOVE THE FOUR WINDS

[adrift-in-thyme]

I think Ody must’ve met every person in the Underworld

[kara-zor-els]

I finished justice league odyssey and my takeaway from this book is that everyone wanted Jessica Cruz carnally (honestly, same)

[seeminglyseph]

Somehow I started playing BG3 again despite being in a DAI mood based purely on the fact that I was distracted and was considering a Sorcerer/Wizard multiclass situation and became entirely focused on multiclassing a character and also just existing in “fuck around Act 1 and be a half elf with draconic sorcery again” because I am so sore and exhausted and when I go back into DAI I am reminded of the fact that I have had the time to like… build a set of characters that I like… have allowed to grow out of the bounds of canon into their own beasts. And when I go back to canon I remember “oh right fuck. All of this is about to be proven wrong by a new game. I just had like a decade to build a story of my own making because we kinda just got scraps of story development for a really long time and I just made my own in my head to tide myself over.”

Which I’m not like. Mad at, it just takes a bit of time to recalibrate to “right, all my headcanon lore needs to be forgotten because the real lore is actually going to be updated and I can’t get confused when the characters and story I created to keep the adventure going don’t exist and the lore I made up isn’t real.”

Which feels like. So stupid in its own way, but like… DAI came out in 2014, trespasser came out in 2015. I’ve had time to like… construct my own narratives that serve storylines that just… exist for me. I know they’re self indulgent, and honestly for a while there the Dragon Age fandom scared the shit out of me so I didn’t want to write it all down and share it because I knew it was self indulgent and I didn’t really want to like… get in trouble for it. And people got in trouble for some very mild things in the DA fandom. And if you say there isn’t you’re lying because it has a fuckin’ reputation. I’ve known multiple people uninterested in the series based entirely on the toxic sludge that comes with the fandom’s reputation.

I mean maybe you also might have been lucky enough to just keep entirely to yourself and your isolated group of friends without being bothered by other people and if so like. Congratulations, you managed to get through Dragon Age without the sludge. That’s beautiful. Many were not so lucky.

I am sitting outside again and therefore just shit talking on my phone instead of any of the things I am declaring myself to be doing. I’m like. Mega sore and feel like shit so like… I guess I’m just like… grouchy.

Plus one of my OCs did have a fraction of June’s soul in him so like. I always knew that a new game would come out and be like “no bitch you can’t have soul fragment of the Evanuris without knowing that canon will take this from you ultimately” it just does feel weird to have lived in the nebulous world of “nothing exists so nothing is incorrect” to suddenly be like… “oh, right. There is going to be a canon and there will be answers as to how Solas’ character arc is resolved and who the Evanuris are.”

And like. It’s wild but I’m kind of anxious about that because like… I’ve spent so much time just… speculating and daydreaming and living in a world of *not* having a new Dragon Age game, that now it’s like… “fuck I need to let go of the Dragon Age I built in my mind and try not to let that inform my opinion of the game.”

Because like… Self Indulgent Daydream Dragon Age and Veil Guard are never gonna be the same universe. And like. SID is fully just tailored heroic and romantic scenes about OCs that make me feel really cool in my head. It’s shallow and pointless but emotionally satisfying and hardwired into my attachment to Dragon Age. But Veil Guard is like… gonna be coming in at a severe disadvantage if I compare it to like. A story I made up in my head specifically to cater to me and my wants in the moment I was crafting the story for myself. Which is like. So deeply unfair to like. Everyone involved with the series.

Also I still blame EA and not BioWare for like 90% of the business issues. Like. It feels really clear that the issues are happening higher up the ladder and someone’s getting scapegoated. Part of the evidence being the attempt to avoid paying appropriate Canadian severance packages. While Canadian companies can be plenty scummy, makes a little more sense if an American overhead felt that they could just keep cutting costs with their Canadian company with Canadian grants, and then while laying off Canadian workers they didn’t want to also pay Canadian severance packages because like. The whole point of having a satellite company in Canada is to cut costs. It’s really annoying to pay more to people that don’t even work for us anymore, like fuck. We couldn’t even have a successful Montreal branch like what are we even doing you guys. They have so many tax breaks you guys.

I am kind of stoned now maybe and kind of grumpy. And just throwing like. Rocks at hornets nests probably lmao.

Or just yapping. I’ve been sitting here talking so long I don’t think anyone’s gonna read it. Lost messages in recipe blogs etc etc

[smolgreybunny]

I just found the Iliad and the Odyssey in graphic novel form this weekend, and I'm so excited to read them! They're by Gareth Hinds, and the insides are as gorgeous as the covers! I'd come to terms with the fact that I'll probably never treat the original texts lol, old texts don't keep my attention well. But I also know they're referenced in modern literature super often, and I wish I understood the references better. So I saw these and realized it's a great way for me to actually read them!

Would people be interested in a reading list of classic ancient world literature for beginners I'm kinda in the mood to infodump

[gossippool]

GOD OKAY SO i skimmed through the script specifically to look for discrepancies in the character names because i had an inkling they would do something like that and i found exactly what i wanted. i formally present my findings:

so for wade the distinction is pretty clear cut; when the suit and mask are on, he's referred to as deadpool. when he's out of the suit, or even just when his mask is off, he's wade.

pretty simple even though it IS still interesting--he's literally masking when he's in the suit; he adopts a persona that comes off with the mask. but here's the fun part! LOGAN doesn't wear a mask throughout most of the movie, and yet he is referred to as the wolverine sometimes and logan in others.

firstly, take the bar scene:

he's introduced in the script as LOGAN, but the moment the bartender attacks him and wade questions if he of all people is going to let himself be spoken to this way, he becomes WOLVERINE. a defensive wall. and it switches right back to logan the moment he says "you don't want this"--back to the person he is who's lost everything, who doesn't want to fight anymore, instead of his x-man mantle.

same with the scene in the diner:

he's wolverine until he finds the rubbing alcohol and downs it. then he's logan until wade brings up his position as an x-man and the version of him who died, and then he switches back to being the wolverine.

and one part i find especially intriguing is the scene in logan's mindscape:

"cassandra and LOGAN stand in a gorgeous, ethereal place." "WOLVERINE falls to his knees."

i found it very curious that when he confesses what he did to laura, he's logan all the way through, but he's wolverine when talking to cassandra about the same thing, even though she did have an effect on him.

you could argue that he has his walls up because he's still wary of her, or that it's ironically even harder for him to talk about the past when he's in his own mind, or that he was aware of what was happening outside the whole time and part of him had been playing into it on purpose even through it all. i think all of them make sense in their own way.

there are a few more instances of this, but tldr i just think it's so so fucking cool that they play with his two different identities in the dialogue names to show when his walls are up. it's a fantastic visual representation of which side of him he shows at what time, and it's just great direction too for the actors reading the script.

he's wolverine throughout the entire honda odyssey fight scene and even in the hideout, or when he's reminded of who he thinks he's supposed to be and, consequently, of his failures. he's logan when he tells laura about what he did. when he's stripped down to his most vulnerable, or when he can forget about being the wolverine for a while, when drinking helps him forget--

or when he's back home with wade and has found peace within himself.

[neil-gaiman]

Hello Mr. Gaiman, I'm very excited because I finally bought The Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula K. Le Guin, can't wait to read it. This editon has a foreword by you. Can you tell us a bit about how you were aproached about it? And how the whole 'invite another author to make an introduction' usually happens in the publishing industry? Thanks and I hope you have a lovely day!

I'm pretty sure that this is one of six books where I wrote an introduction to the series and talked about the individual books -- 2001: A Space Odyssey, Dune, Neuromancer, The Once and Future King, The Left Hand of Darkness, and Stranger in a Strange Land -- where what I wrote about the individual books has now become an introduction in its own right. Probably without ever asking me, although I would have said yes if asked.

Normally I get asked to introduce books that people know I have a connection to, especially to help books that are coming back into print.