#especially if he dismissed Damian's questions about his parents in the past

[some-kind-of-creature]

It wasn’t supposed to be a secret.

If you died while with the league, you will no longer be acknowledged to have existed, especially if you died during a mission. A disappointment will not be remembered.

The bats and birds don’t like speaking about the people they have lost, so they don’t. If someone ask about the dead, they will tell the person they don’t talk about that.

So how was Damian supposed to know that he should have told his father about his dead brother?

[norahjakobs]

Earth 33: Outlaws - Jason Todd

Earth 33 is my attempt at rewriting the dc universe. I’m doing this entirely for my own entertainment and as such will be writing what appeals to me. I’m starting this au off with the members of the outlaws, almost all of whom never canonly have been members.

So without farther ado, here’s Jason (This is a long one)

(TW: Death, Drugs, Overdosing, Crime, Vague Allusions to Rape)

Jason Peter Todd was born to Willis and Catherine Todd in a backstreet in Crime Alley. His father a small time crook and his mother drug addicted and unable to take care of him, he was basically left alone emotionally other than the few times Willis made time for his little prince of Gotham. Such as when he pickpocketed two tickets for a flying grayson show.

Willis got arrested on charges of drug use, theft, and grand theft auto. Reportedly he died in a prison riot started by some of Harvey Dents goons. Jason was 8 when this happened and it affected him greatly, he locked himself in his room in the Todd familys beat up tiny apartment for three days till he realized his mother hadn’t gone shopping or even begun to try and hustle any money for bills. He knew then that he’d be taking care of his mother till the day she overdosed like how the neighbors kept saying she would. Pick pocketing and theft became his new way of life but it was beyond stressful for a child of his age, and he was beat up several times by both gang members and police officers who caught him stealing.

He was 10 when his mother died from an overdose, it had been a long day and he was just happy to be able to bring some noodles and dollar store tomato paste home. But as he entered his home of ten years it smelled like how the alleys he always rushed through instead of walking smelled. He set the bags down at the door and rushed to the source of the scent. He got into the cramped kitchen and found his mother, dead. He went into his room and with a vacant expression on his face packed anything he had of value, he knew he couldn’t call 911, the phone service to the house had been cut three months ago, and besides there was no money to give his poor mother a proper burial.

He lived on the streets for the next two years and those two years taught him the way of the street, the distrust, the scrappy fighting that came when you hadn’t ate in three days, the value of a warm meal. Late one night he saw a chance that didn’t come by everyday, the batmobile, unguarded in an alleyway. He could only imagine how much the tires on it would fetch, so yeah he tried to jack the tires off the batmoblie. He was caught by Batman, who took him to get some food and talked with him. He was dropped off at a Wayne funded shelter.

And the next morning something bizarre happened, the people at the shelter let Jason know that there was someone interested in taking him in. He was hesitant at first but agreed to meet this person. A little later Bruce Wayne came in and chatted with Jason who was at first dismissive of the man but warmed up during the conversation, especially when Bruce shared about how he lost his parents when he was around 10. Jason agreed to try out living with him.

He liked it alot to say the least. He ran around the manor stuffing his face full of junk food almost constantly when he first got there till Alfred stepped in, just for his healths stake as a tumble down the long stairs or getting stick off of eating too much wouldn’t be all that fun for the kid. Jason wanted to stay and so stay he would.

Bruce put graves for Jason’s parents in the Wayne family graveyard next to Dick’s parents. Jason was put at ease by finally being able to put them to rest, including his mom’s body that was tracked down in GCP’s system as a yet to be identified body, his father’s body however had not yet been found.

Something that Bruce hadn't accounted for was the fact that Jason was a troubled sleeper, everything else he was doing perfectly with adjusting too, he was doing amazing at school, his checkup only indicated that they might want to give him some multivitamin gummies. But he just couldn’t get to sleep, he was too nervous too, and when he wasn’t too nervous he was too full of energy and trying to use it up doing something. So it was inevitable that he noticed how often Bruce was out at night and how at times he couldn’t find Alfred anywhere.

So when Bruce and Alfred were busy at some glala that didn’t let children in (Side note to myself, write younger Jason at one of these glalas) Jason poked his nose around the house looking for anything hidden. And while pulling books off the shelf in the study he tripped on the carpet and knocked a bust on the desk over, revealing a button. He did what you do when you find a button and he pressed it revealing a firemen pole, which he went down.

He ran around the cave unattended for an hour and when Bruce and Alfred has finally managed to get back home he had managed to put on one of Dick’s old robin costumes and was trying to figure out how to turn on the batmobile. Bruce sat him down and explained everything, and once he was done Jason asked if he could be Robin, and pointed out all his selling points like that his grades were good, he was good at running, he could throw a punch.

Bruce agreed to let him become Robin after a few months of training. Jason would remember his first night as Robin as one of the best of his life, only second to being adopted. His first night they dealt with a few purse snatchers, a mugging, and the crown of the night was a heist being pulled off by The Riddler at an art museum.

He met his brother Dick he and Bruce went to Bludhaven for a weekend due to Wayne Enterprises related business. The three of them met up for lunch on the Saturday and Jason and Dick got along greatly and poked fun at Bruce throughout the whole meal. On Sunday it turned out a mob had made the billanet plan to kidnap Bruce Wayne and hold him for ransom. Nightwing and Robin teamed up to save him and by the end of the adventure Dick gave Jason his phone number and told him to call whenever he’d like.

He was pretty friendless though, at school he was focused on the work and there wasn’t any sidekicks around his age running around Gotham. So Bruce organized the sidekick equivalent of a playdate with Blue Devils on again off again sidekick Kid Devil, also known as Eddie Bloomberg. The two were only supposed to taking down Polka-Dot Man who was planning a robbery. But when they returned to where Batman and Blue Devil were supposed to be figuring out a case with Zatanna at her hotel all they found were scorch marks and a very confused Zachary Zatara who had been in the hotel dining room before hearing a bunch of yelling and coming to investigate.

The events that followed were both chaotic and too long to list here. But for more details you can read here!

A couple years later he had hit the age of 15 and was overall, happy. He had a brother who loved him and checked in on him, he had a penpal who understood the stress of being a sidekick. But he also had lingering problems, anger over the treatment he got as a child and the treatment he saw others get, an empty feeling left by his parents. And what really brought out these feelings was a man by the name of Felipe Garzonas, someone that represented everything he hated. A person who abused his privilege to take advantage of those less fortunate, and then got off thanks to that privilege. Batman and Robin got him arrested but he got out the same day thanks to diplomatic immunity. And the man’s victim, overcome with terror took her own life. So when Jason was left alone with the man on a balcony it didn’t come as a surprise that he didn’t help when Felipe was falling to his death. Though the question of if he was pushed or slipped would never be answered.

Jason’s mental health took a dip due to what had happened and the fact that Bruce was avoiding him, and he called Dick who was having problems of his own at the time. But agreed to take Jason on a teen titan mission or two while his mind lingered on what had happened in Gotham and wandered to his family. But his mind got taken off that by meeting the titans and helping with one of the many smaller problems they had.

But when he got back he couldn’t get his mind off his past, so in an attempt to bring himself more closure on the topic he started looking for his father’s body. But meanwhile The Joker pieced together that one of his goons, was Robin’s father and so a plan was formed. Jason figured out that his father wasn’t dead but had gotten away the day of the riot and was working for The Joker who was planning something off in the alps. And due to the avoidance Bruce was showing to Jason, Jason decided to go out on his own. And we all know how that goes. His body, alongside his father’s was found in the wreckage of the blown up building.

He was laid to rest next to the graves for his parents and finally for the first time in years they were all together. But nothing lasts and Taila Al Ghul, in a bid to have something to use against Bruce in case he found out about Damian prematurely. So she sent one of her other pet projects, Twilight, or better known is Slade Wilson’s missing son Grant Wilson.

When he came out of the Lazarus Pit he was confused and tried to flee and there was some trouble stopping him till Taila tranquilized him. It turned out he had no memory of his life than his own name and the fact he died. He was respective to The League Of Shadows training, he still had the muscle memory from being Robin and was in a mental state that was easy to manipulate. He took to hanging around Grant as he reminded Jason of someone in a couple ways and Grant’s inner big brother came out around Jason.

By years end, Jason had fully integrated with The League and was sent on his first mission. When he had came back from it he had been sobbing but the deed was done. Taila talked with him about what had happened and tried to help him desensitize to the issue, she had grown to care about him and it hurt her to see him like this. After this incident his memories started to return, sparked by the familiar feeling caused by what he had done and the subconscious fear of being ignored again because of it.

He shared what he was remembering with Grant and that only helped to fuel the flame of rage in him. He wasn’t mad that Bruce couldn’t save him, he was angry that Bruce let there be chance the same would happen to another kid by letting The Joker live. He made a plan to try and make Bruce understand and set out on his way. Taila feared for him but did offer the original funds he needed for the plan.

He had his 17th birthday right as he was taking over Gotham’s underground as The Red Hood. It was a quick and hostile take over where he intimidated those he could, and killed those he couldn’t. News of The Red Hood found it’s way to Bruce quickly who was working alone at the time due to Tim being with Young Justice at the time. The drug lords were scared and one even agreed to meet with Batman but before they could give out much information they were shoot sparking a chase through the city where Batman failed to catch Red Hood.

He tracked down The Joker and kidnapped him and while waiting for Batman to arrive did all the things that Joker did to Jason in that warehouse so long ago. When Batman did arrive it became a tense confrontation where Jason revealed himself and demanded to know why the clown still breathed. Bruce answered the way he always did, saying they could not be the judge, jury, and executioner. He ended up forcing Bruce to make a choice, either kill The Joker himself or Jason would do it. Bruce instead threw a batarang at Jason, cutting the side of his neck and then The Joker detonated explosives that had been in the building.

He survived and fled Gotham. He decided to go meet his replacement Tim, he broke into the Young Justice base and kidnapped Robin not wanting to also take on a half kryptonian, speedster, and a demigod. The two fought and Jason mocked his replacement but he wasn’t trying to kill Tim. And when things were looking dicey for Tim, Jason nerve pinched him and left.

He then went off to Bludhaven to bother Dick. Who at the time was dealing with the Court Of Owls and the fact they were stalking him and trying to kidnap him. So when Jason was following him and saw some other shady character was following his brother he started a fight with them. Nightwing very quickly joined the fray between Red Hood and Talon and the two scared them off. Their chat afterwards was awkward to say the least, but weirdly friendly since Jason had just helped Dick and Dick caught on to the fact that Jason had been trained by The League of Shadows.

Dick made an effort to help Jason who he had figured out had been brainwashed during his time with The League of Shadows. And some progress was made. But when they went to Gotham so Jason could try to have a normal-ish conversation with Bruce, it blew up in his face when they had gotten talking about Taila and Jason let it slip that Taila had a son that she said was Bruce’s. Bruce, with no where to direct his feelings on the matter, got cross with Jason for not telling him sooner and the two started arguing. It ended when Jason pulled a gun on Bruce and Dick knocked him out with some sleeping gas.

Jason spent a month in Arkham and was beyond angry, he was angry at Bruce for taking out his complicated emotions on him and he was mad at Dick fortaking Bruces side. He had been admitted under an assumed name as a non criminal resident so he was being kept away from where the violent offenders were. Which was for the best, if he had been anywhere near The Joker it wouldn’t have been pretty. He got out when Tim bribed Arkham to let him out. Jason thanked his younger brother and asked about why he did that and Tim explained that the reason Jason was in there wasn’t fair, and besides he was mad at Bruce as Damian just showed up and stole the Robin name. Jason offered to get Tim a drink but he rejected pointing out the were both underage.

It wasn’t long after that he turned 18. He was headed out of a gas station with the first legal box cigarettes he had ever bought that he got a call from Dick asking him to come to the cave, it was important. So he did, everyone did. And it was a grim affair as Bruce had died. Jason didn’t handle his grief well and left the cave before he could hear the message that was left for him. He left Gotham city as well, both because he needed some space from the situation and because he knew that there was about to be a fight over who would wear the cowl.

He went to LA and met up with an old friend, Eddie Bloomberg who was acting as part time tech support for the Teen Titans. The two had a happy, tearful reunion. Jason, who was crashing on Eddie’s couch for the moment continued his work as Red Hood but it was mellowed out. There was a combination of reasons for this, Dick’s support (even though it had been withdrawn), not wanting Bruce’s ghost judging him, and trying to get in a better mental space and not throw away the chance he had.

After Bruce had came back Jason went back to Gotham, and they hashed things out, by no means were they on the same page, they probably never would be again. But Bruce was willing to offer Jason a place in the batfamily as long as he agreed not to kill anyone, and Jason was willing to agree.

Jason and Stephanie got to know each other pretty well since they were given the chance finally. And they got along greatly. It was a nightmare for Bruce however as he had snark coming left and right. Jason also got to know Cass better and they had a couple things to relate on. And for the first time in three years he was finding happiness in his family life.

But again, nothing lasts for forever. Jason late one night while on patrol noticed someone had broken into the penthouse of a well respected lawyer. And he found Twilight was the intruder and it was no mistake that he caught him. The League wanted him back and weren’t willing to take no for an answer, and Grant felt it was personal. So the ensuing argument was intense and by the end the fight had found it’s way onto the top of Wayne tower where Grant misstepped and fell to his seeming death, and worse batman had seen the end of the fight and given prior events including falling to death and Jason Bruce didn’t trust that it was an accident and banished Jason from the city till things were more clear.

Out on his own yet again he decided to form a team and work on the move, no superhero wants the murdery batfamily member in their city for long. So he got on his bike and he went back to LA.

[mydeardeath]

A dragon hoard (part 2)

on AO3

part 1

When he opened his eyes, he was still in the same room. Still alive. But something had changed. The room was perfectly clean and clothes had been laid on a chair. This meant there were humans in the castle. Humans working, willingly or not, for the dragon. They could either help him escape or prevent him from doing so. He would have to be wary of them.

The pants were simple black slack, a bit short for him but still comfortable. They came with a dark green tunic that brought out the color of his eyes. Both were far warmer than his previous outfit, but not made to survive in the freezing weather. Plus they didn't give him new shoes and the fancy one he was wearing wouldn't support a trek through the mountains, especially if he had to walk for a few weeks.

Once he had changed, he tiptoed to the door and put his ears against the hard wood. He could hear movement from the other side. The noises were pretty faint so whatever it was, did not stand outside his room. As much as he had been careful, the door had creaked when he opened it. He headed toward the source of the noises that seemed to come from the other end of the corridor.

All the doors were opened, people bustling around carrying fresh sheets, dusting the furniture, washing the windows, waxing the floor and oiling the door seal. They were at least six of them in this part of the castle, apparently to make it liveable again. But why ? Did they live there too ? Had the Dragon abducted them ? If they had been kidnapped, how long ago had it happened for them to renounce to escape and resigned themselves to live here ? He stood there watching them dumbfounded until one of them noticed him.

A middle age woman dressed in a typical maid outfit looked up at him and offered him a sweet smile : "You're finally awake, boy ! Come with me, you must be starving ! Timothy told me you had had nothing to eat since you arrived."

Without a pause, she grabbed his arm drug him down the stairs to lead him to the kitchen. The smell hit him as soon as he entered the room. He had not eaten in more than a day and the sight of eggs cooking in the pan and the smell of freshly baked bread made him salivate. But Damian was a prince, he would be undignified for him to rush to the food.

The woman had still a hand on his arm and pushed onto a chair. Right after that, a young boy with wild red hair placed a plate in front of him, glancing at him timidly from behind his locks. They were all eyeing him curiously, in a more obvious way for some of them. He was probably the reaction each time a new face appeared. Or maybe they could tell who he was ? The one that had cleaned the room he had slept in might have seen his clothes and deduced he was royalty, or at least a noble.

He had started to pick at his food when a man in his sixties sat down in front of him offering him gentle smile.

"I guess that you have a lot of question about this place and why you are here ?" Damian simply nodded to show the man he had his attention. "I was born in this castle, my parents worked here for Mr.Drake and his wife. I have never met her, she left his husband before my birth. She couldn't stand him as he had become bitter as the years passed. They had a son, Jack, that liked to go explore the world. He was rarely home from what I remember so when his father, Mr. Drake, disappeared, he dismissed all the persons that worked and lived here. Then, two decades ago, rumors of him being back spread. Rumors that proved to be true. He was back but not alone, he was accompanied by a...woman and their child. They didn't stay long. They basically just dropped their baby and left. Their son, Timothy regularly came to the villages close to the mountain. Not just for food but for knowledge too. He was a very curious kid. And as he became older, he started to hoard knowledge. That why we are here. We are part of his hoard. All of us, me and you as well."

"Hoard ? Are you insinuating that this Timothy is a Dragon ?"

The old man let out a little laugh at that : "I guess that most people that have never seen one with their own eyes rarely believe in their existence. But, yes the Drakes are Dragons."

"The Drakes as in the noble family ?"

"Ah yes, the curse of the Drake family ! We have all heard of it. Truly, I don't know more than you if it is legend or reality. He could be. Or he could be tale born from Mr. Drake human name and familiarity with humans. Most don't think that Dragon can be as intelligent as humans, don't think that beast could take an interest in our civilization unless they are themselves part of it or at least used to."

Damian had still difficulties believing the man. Dragons had never been a thing he had believed in. He probably still would have doubts until being face to face with the creature in broad daylight to accept their existence. And anyway, what kind of name for a dragon was "Timothy"? It was more sweet than intimidating.

"Have you tried to escape ?"

"Escape ?" The old man burst into a loud laughter, his entire fragile frame shaking. "I have never lived more comfortably than now, we all do. Why would any of us want to leave ? We were authorized to bring our family. Their nothing more for us in the villages down the mountain."

"Well there is for me and I don't intend to stay here."

"Then let us give you better clothes for this weather."

"You're helping me ?"

"It would be a shame if you died before Timothy brought you back. Because he will."

The old man insisted he finished eating while the boy fetched boots and a fur coat for him. He didn't care that the man thought he would not manage to reach Gotham, he would try. He had to. He wasn't one to give up so easily. So by noon, he was out of the castle with his new outfits and non-perishable food offered by the cooks. They didn't bother with wishing him a safe travel, all convinced he would be back in no time but they still gave him a map so he could go in the right direction. He was a bit suspicious of it, they could easily offer the same information to the Dragon so he would find him quickly. But he hadn't much of a choice : it was either that or wander haphazardly in the wild lands.

The first hours, he swallowed kilometers with a steady and fast pace, helped by the afternoon sun. He could probably go for one more hour but after that he would have to start looking for shelter. Passing the night outside would be suicide. The cold could easily take him and if he made a fire it would probably attract predators. So it would be either die of hypothermia or be eaten alive by wolves.

As luck didn't seem to be on Damian side for the past two days, it began to snow. At first, it was just a few snowflakes that melted almost immediately. But soon his vision was obstructed and he could barely perceive the trees surrounding him. He had spotted an excavation a bit earlier. He didn't like to have to turn back, but it was the safest solution. He had no guarantee it would stumble upon another shelter before it was too late.

The inside of the cave was dry, protected from the snow and the wind. But the cold had managed to sneak inside. The entry was narrow enough that he didn't worry much about animals. Nonetheless, he was still frozen to the bone. He put off his wet clothes with trembling fingers, he wrapped himself in the thick blankets he had been given by the castle inhabitants. He fell asleep curled up on the hard ground, shivering.

It was still dark when he opened his eyes once again. He couldn't see anything, but he could hear something against the stones at the cave entry, as if something was trying to come in. He wanted to get up, to be ready to face up against whatever the threat was.

He realized at this instant that in his haste, he hadn't thought to ask for a weapon. Not that it would matter right now as he couldn't even move. His whole body was numb and he could barely move, even less fight. The sound of stones shifting and hitting the ground seemed to grow louder as time passed. Damian was still trying to will his body to move when the heap of rock blocking the cave opening broke down under his assailant onslaught.

Soon the creature was in the cave, his breathing echoing against the wall. Whatever it was, the beast was massive. Damian couldn't tell what it looked like, it was too dark for that. Yet it wasn't hard to guess that the old man had been right. The dragon had found him.

part 3

[incoherentbabblings]

Comic Book Shenanigans

So these two panels caused a little kerfuffle didn’t they?  Dick’s statement that Bruce has to be father to a bunch of batkids?  Correct.  Dick’s second statement that Damian suffers the most from Bruce’s ‘scattered’ parenting tactics - not because he’s the youngest, or most vulnerable - but because Damian’s Bruce’s ‘one real’ son? Eeeehhhh hmmmm.  Bruce leaving off the final S in sons accidentally/intentionally(?) stating that he doesn’t think of Dick or Jason as his sons?  Oh people’s butt clenched so fast and hard.

I can get behind the idea Dick not thinking of himself as Bruce’s son, since they emphasised it enough in the past that Bruce made a point of not trying to replace John in Dick’s life. This didn’t stop Bruce from viewing Dick as his son though (my favourite example is definitely Superman/Batman #65, it may have been a fear gas hallucination but by god you can pry that panel of bby Dick calling Bruce dad from my cold dead hands.  Other examples include the adoption arc in Gotham Knights, Bruce Wayne: The Road Home where in Bruce’s notes he talks about Damian, Dick and Tim as his sons and so on).  The above statement from Dick however requires Dick to know that Jason also doesn’t think of Bruce as his dad.  Which again, I can get behind in this continuity, but I can’t get out of my head how when Jason first woke up and dug his way out he literally started begging for his dad to come help him.  Again, we know Bruce thought of himself as Jason’s dad, hence the adoption years before Dick up to the Batman and Robin Convergence Issue.  Tim is in a similar boat in this universe but again Pre-Flashpoint he was the only one of the boys to take Bruce’s surname and do the whole Father’s Day issue of Robin and so on.  

The point is, Dick's exclusion of himself I can justify because I can get behind the idea that's how Dick himself understands his relationship to Bruce or how Dick thinks Bruce understands their relationship (true or not).  The dismissal of Tim and Jason, whilst fustrating, are totally logical in this universe. 4 Robins in as many years means heavily affected relationship trees right?

But this week's Batman where Bruce deliberately separates Jason and Dick from Damian is poorly phrased at best or is actively dismissive of Bruce's relationship to Dick and Jason at worst.  They're not his sons because...?  They're not related to him?  Or at least, that's the conclusion that many people jumped to.

I know Seeley and King do think of the batfam as an actual family regardless of biology (I'm sure they’ve both said as much in interviews in the past).  I saw lots of praise for Dick's relationship to Damian in this issue, how it really blurs that line between fraternal and paternal and how frightened Damian is in being replaced in that position in Dick's eyes. So I guess people got confused over how the boys can clearly see each other as brothers but Bruce cannot acknowledge any of them as his sons apart from the one he's (conveniently) biologically related to.  Maybe you could argue it's also because Damian is younger and needs guidance beyond that of a mentor (which is why Dick blurs the line between brother and dad right?) but the 'only bio kids count' schtick is still there in the background, especially in these panels.

I don’t really blame the writer’s for this. I think that after the New52 made it that Tim, Dick and Jason were never adopted nor really had that paternal influence due to the condensed timeline alongside the focus of Damian being The Son of Batman while the other three were distanced from Bruce as a father figure and so on and so on, have really made people feel like DC is dismissive of adoptive families.  Especially when by 2011 Bruce was referring to the boys as his sons [plural] even if Dick and maybe Jason didn’t feel the same way, then the reboot happens and now Bruce only refers to Damian as his son, and the status of the others when it comes to who is or isn’t adopted and when this all happened is really unclear.  On a tangent it’s linked to Cassandra’s treatment as well with the feeling that she has really been shafted for years now (oh my goodness people are begging for her to be adopted again at the end of Tynion’s arc, just so she can have a set place in the family no questions asked no more conveniently leaving the poor girl out of group shots and so on).  The same arguments are happening on the Green Arrow side of things right?  With Mia still …well MIA… and Ollie’s relationship to Roy versus Connor versus Emiko...

It’s really unfortunate (but I believe unintentional, not that it lessens the impact really) phrasing that is a bit screwy.  Dick’s statement (a totally understandable one from my point of view and makes sense in universe) from this weeks issue coincidentally coincided with King’s panel from Batman and it just made people remember that the Bruce isn’t really being allowed to be a father to any of the kids because of the consequences of the condensed timeline of the New52. 

Maybe this is something Rebirth will fix, maybe not. If not though, can I nudge editorial a little bit?  Bruce seems to not be allowed to be a dad to anyone outside of Damian, who just so happens to be his biological child, which leads to an uncomfortable line of thought that the others don’t count because of their lack of relation.  The reality is that it’s probably a lack of history.  We don’t really know what the three boys relationship to Bruce was before the New52 starting point outside of the odd flashback or annual here and there (with I think Jason’s remaining the most intact and Tim’s...not... lol Tim what a mess...)  If the paternal relationship is ignored, you have either just a mentor relationship (which I really doubt Bruce could do and not create a familial attachment to the boys) or the unfortunately persistent child soldier analogy, which is something no fan wants nor believes in… I think.  I hope.