#dw fandom discourse

[leikeliscomet]

You think Martha deserved better because you think her being attracted to Ten is some moral failing she needed to correct I think Martha deserved better bc the misogynoir in S3 in the show and fandom was so rampant that Freema Agyeman, other Black and mixed actors and fans are dealing with the repercussions over a decade later we're not the same

[oobbbear]

Somehow me making a silly post about how I love Stan and would forgive all his crime no matter what got twisted into I think ford and fidd are equally terrible irredeemable person as bill cipher and there’s people talking shit in my inbox now🚶‍♂️I’m going back to my cave I hate it here

[thirdeyeblue]

“Nine would have treated Martha better than Ten did”

I need to talk about this argument that never seems to stop circulating.

Note: Not a venomous/anti post. There’s more than enough of that across fandom spaces as is, and this is supposed to be a place for ✨sweet, blissful escapism✨

When making this argument, people seem to envision a scenario in which Nine never met Rose.

While I can appreciate a good hypothetical, recognizing Rose's significance to the Doctor (Nine and Ten) is essential to understanding why things with Martha played out the way they did in the first place.

In the third series, the Doctor is grieving. This grief is deliberately threaded into nearly every script, whether spoken aloud or not (and these are just a few examples):

He's burning in Rose’s wake the entire time Martha travels with him, which is why it’s so frequently called upon: It’s 100% deliberate in framing his grief. He grieved as Nine too, of course— having been fresh on the heels of the Time War — but then he met Rose, which changed everything.

Back then, he was still a rude, traumatized pain in the ass, but we watch Rose soften more of those jagged edges with every episode as they grow closer; as he lets his guard down and forms a deep connection with her.

He falls in love (against his better judgment) and it's game over.

And yes: provided S1E1 had been titled 'Martha', one can realistically assume things might have unfolded similarly to how they did with Rose. However, it wouldn’t have been that way just because the Doctor was Nine and “Nine was different” — it would be because he wasn’t already in love with someone else. The same can't be said for the start of S3.

Think of it like this: if Rose AND Martha had been in that cellar — if Nine had taken both of them along with him in S1 — we’d eventually be looking at the most melodramatic love triangle ever, what with him living in close quarters with two brilliant, gorgeous, compassionate young women... But Doctor Who is plenty “soap opera” as is with just one woman in the TARDIS.

(I certainly wouldn’t object to reading that fic, though)

Now, regarding the unrequited elephant in the room…

His inability to be romantic with Martha isn’t because he thinks her lesser, nor is it for lack of compatibility. It isn't because Rose is any better than her. It certainly isn’t just because he’s Ten.

It’s really only for one reason, which can't be denied — and now I’m a broken record:

He is still in love with Rose.

(cut from a tenrosedaily gif)

Nine is Ten, and Ten is only such a mess in S3 because he’s just lost the love of his life. Martha merely got caught in the crosshairs of a volatile Time Lord in mourning, and yes — it sucks. Absolutely.

But it also feels dismissive to chalk Ten and Martha’s relationship up to little more than some sort of mindless dance of pining, jealousy, and toxicity.

Ten trusted Martha with his life over and over again — and hers, with him. He constantly praised her brilliance, happily carting her around time and space with no intention of letting her go. In the BBC’s extended universe of novels/comics/cartoons/etc, there’s so much depth to their relationship: love and trust and trauma and sacrifice. They had their own special bond as mates, their own complexities — so it’s a bummer that it's forever overshadowed by the other things.

I’m not denying that there was a lot of stuff that sucked/was for sure toxic about Ten's S3 behavior, but so many of the things I've seen him catching flak for can be directly attributed to being A Clueless Fucking Alien Idiot (not a trait that’s unique to Ten) — as well as his flat-out obliviousness to Martha’s feelings.

So yes, I agree: if Rose never existed, he would have treated Martha differently as Nine. He also would have treated her differently as Ten. Certainly.

But Rose did exist, and when discussing canon, it matters.

“He tells me that he absolutely, 100% loves Rose... He tells me how my daughter; my wonderful, beautiful, clever little girl saved him from himself before… And he says that’s all because of me! I made her into the Rose Tyler that saved him.”

-Jackie Tyler, Flight Into Hull!

Martha got the short end of the stick in S3. She came round at the wrong place and time, but that doesn't mean it was all bad. It doesn't mean the Doctor didn’t adore her. It certainly doesn't mean the time they spent together was wasted or worthless. They were brilliant!

Sure, he could be a twat, but let it be known that he was a twat with Rose as well, both as Nine and Ten. I’m sure Tentoo can be plenty infuriating, too. So while I'll defend Ten (and Tentoo) into the ground forever and ever and ever, I'll concede that he's fucked up.

The Doctor is a certified Pain In The Ass. It’s one of the things I love so much about this character — dynamics.

But never forget that Martha was goddamn tough as nails and overcame every bit of it. She moved on with her life, and the Doctor moved on with his. One can only pray that, when they inevitably drag her back onto the show (which feels inevitable if I'm honest), we see at once that she's been living her best life for all these years.

[etoilesbienne]

My plea to the rest of the qsmp tumblr fandom: Please stop making every piece of content relate back to the first purgatory.

I don't want to be a person who shows up and rains on parades to ruin fun for people, but I think there's a sizeable amount of this community that doesn't really realize how much the first purgatory has affected every less popular character's fanwork. Especially on tumblr, where English is the lingua franca and almost everyone communicates in it. You have to understand most characters on qsmp were not exactly the same characterization wise on quesadilla island than they were on purgatory. Not that they aren't the same characters, it's just people seem to be prioritizing only those purgatory characterizations over every other moment on the server, while also not looking and trying to understand these characters outside of purgatory at all.

Purgatory 2 got hit with it too, like I don't think I saw a single team in P2 that didn't get extensive comparisons to any of the P1 teams. Like I get it, media parallels, that's cool! It's just tiring when you look at any character's tag or a P2 team's tag that is less popular in the English fandom and 95% of it is just to do with purgatory one, or wanting them to do something from purgatory one, or saying how they should join a purgatory one team. I can't wait until we can move on to a new arc in the server that involves all the characters, but until then, please be aware that almost all of the non-English characters have been almost, like, mostly only receiving content about purgatory one still. It's a disservice to the characters and the CC behind them, they become side characters to streamers who are more popular in English fandom.

I don't think anyone's, like, a bad person for liking purgatory or enjoying purgatory content, nor is any one team worse than the other or deserves any hate, just understand it's a struggle for anyone who likes these less popular characters to find non-purgatory one based content. Let these characters be their own individuals instead of extensions of other characters. :(

[queenie-avenue]

I've decided to try my hand at making a really REALLY bad video essay. Except, I don't know how to edit, so it's gonna be on a PowerPoint or Canva slides LMFAO-

Dedicating this video (if I actually finish it) to @arson-09 cuz I love their rants about ACOTAR, as well as the whole Rhysta Fandom.

Note: This is no hate to the ACOTAR fandom. These are things that I've personally noticed in the fandom and wanna talk about it solely for my own entertainment because I'm a yapper

[picnokinesis]

Seen a lot of discourse going around about these two at the moment, so I thought I’d draw them and throw some positivity into the void because I love them both so much! They’re absolutely wonderful characters, and also you cannot tell me that  Rose “what’s your name, your pronouns and are you in a union” Tyler and Dan “I don’t need anything so long as other people around me are alright” Lewis wouldn’t be the best of friends, like just imagine it. They’re running through space and time to stand up to injustice and also offer you some soup (and maybe a bad pun or two), and they’ll make sure each other are okay whilst they’re at it. I love them.

[starlightseraph]

honoured to have been summoned, comrades 🫡

@dtmsrpfcringe

those screenshots are truly unhinged.

- ever heard of candid photos? ones that aren't posed or staged to have the person look a specific way? ones that capture the essence of a moment and have a more organic feel? ones that can celebrate the mundane? is it abnormal for family/ friends/loved ones to take candid in-the-moment pictures? no. or if it is, then i guess everyone i know, all the people i've seen doing this, and every person who's ever posted a non-posed photo of their loved one is a creep.

- appreciation and kindness for everyone but him? let me refer you back to this: "happy birthday to the best person most of us will ever know. the kindest of people, the cleverest of people, the funniest of people and the best dad of (many) people. sometimes i wonder what i do to deserve him..." and this is only a selected example, not an exhaustive list.

- hijacking his party and refusing to acknowledge that it was his? the card they posted was literally for a combined party. a 90th birthday, and given that david's not 90, but he's in his early 50s while she's almost 40, and it's not anywhere near either of their real birthdays, it's fairly obvious that it was meant for both of them. as you would know, if you payed attention to the goddamn card.

- normalising abuse? girl where. you have no knowledge of their private communication and boundaries, what they've talked about/agreed on, what they find mildly annoying and what they are genuinely upset by. poking fun, egging on, banter, all are perfectly healthy. if he's truly disturbed by anything, it is his responsibility to communicate that, and her responsibility to respect it. but these interactions are normally not public. they've almost certainly discussed social media sharing outside of the few snippets we've seen. it's fairly safe to assume, then, that any conversations they've had on-camera apply to those specific instances. "not right now" as opposed to "not ever". and a reminder that we literally do not know these people. you can't draw a diagram of an entire house by peering through a few windows.

- about the criminal offence bit, i can tell you, with absolute certainty, that no one is going to report anyone to the police for taking a candid photo in a kitchen. i promise, it's not illegal, by any stretch of the law, for a wife to take a photo of her husband standing at a counter. it may be technically illegal in some places to distribute those photos without the person's consent, but we, as outsiders, have no way of knowing and therefore shouldn't assume that she didn't get consent. i have several lawyers in my very close family, and i can already hear the legalese they’d break into to counter this argument.

the most important point i want to make is that they are married, and have been for a dozen years, and have known each other for years more than that. they understand each other, they probably know each other better than anyone. they certainly know each other better than we do. when you get to that point with someone, you generally don't need to confirm every single thing you do. in most cases, you can get a sense of what's ok and what's not. it's possible that georgia has some difficulty with that, as she's neurodivergent, but in that case the boundaries just need to be clarified for her. if she's unsure, she can ask, if she's unaware, he can tell her. because human relationships go both ways, boundaries need to be communicated, understood, and consistently adjusted. only then are they even tangible concepts that can dictate social interactions. and smaller things or individual moments can exist freely, without a giant rubric attached. they're both adults, they both have agency, and they both have access to support. trust that they're making good choices for themselves and each other, because you have no real reasons to think otherwise.

[galedekarios]

what it feels like going into gale's tag for good art, meta or hcs

[anthony-crowleys-left-nut]

small doctor who related rant under the cut:

apparently some people don't multiship the doctor and like, get mad at other people for doing that lol? but even over the course of a human life we love many people, in many different ways. imagine living over 2000 years. it just makes logical sense to me. and people argue over the doctor's sexuality (i read them as gray ace or demisexual), but i think we can all agree the doctor feels love. why would you want your blorbo only to feel that once, lose it forever, and then spend the rest of their life without feeling it again? like i'm a rose stan til i die but she's gone. why would i be mad at people who ship the doctor with clara or river? (which i also do but that's beside the point) like do you not want them to be happy lol? not to imply that happiness is only achieved through falling in/being in love but like. let that alien move on lmao. and liking multiple ships isn't like... disloyal to your fave or something. and liking a different ship than you is not an affront to your fave either.

ok i'm done bye

[cleopatraphouse]

Amy Dallon haters be like “if I was emotionally neglected for years and then psychologically tortured by one of the scariest serial killers in the world, I would simply not freak out about it”

[leikeliscomet]

I like how if u wanna anything about the doctor being aspec you gotta have video clips, interviews quotes, 5 links to the AVEN website and Sylvester McCoy holding the asexual flag or something but if u wanna say he isn't aspec you just have to say he isn't or "Moffat era" lmaoooooo

[taehyungfirst]

I can't tell if I've been living under a rock or if something's up lol.

I'm someone who kind of stopped focusing on Kpop for years, though I kept up occasionally with bts and especially tae.

Back when Golden came out, (and seven and 3D before that) I never actively listened to the album but I was kind of forced to because of just how popular they it became lol. Like those songs were EVERYWHERE.

Even now, I work at a mall, and almost a full year later every day at least two-three of jk's songs play when I'm heading in and heading out. It's still everywhere.

For Muse by jimin though, I know some of the songs are very catchy and I've heard snippets of them on social media, but they weren't everywhere like the tracks on Golden were.

Sure, I've heard bits of Muse online (mostly friends into Kpop posting about it), but I haven't heard any of the songs playing otherwise. Maybe I've been living under a rock these last two months, but they're definitely not as popular or known by the general public in North America.

Yet I happened to come across a post today while scrolling about how Muse just achieved 1 billion streams! That's amazing but crazy. Some of the tracks apparently have over 400 million streams in less than 2 months. I'm actually shocked, like how have I not been hearing those songs anywhere? Did the fandom mobilize like crazy in a way they haven't before? I haven't kept up with the overall fandom, but the numbers are legit impressive but insane

Yeah, song charting in the US but didn’t get any us city entry. The fandom didn’t mobilize in a crazy way there is a secret third thingy they’re using that I can’t say because pjmsies gonna be mad at me 🫢

[starleska]

as i'm posting a lot about the Toymaker it's only fair to address the elephant in room regarding his racist history and characterisation. i feel this is important, especially as i will be writing fanfiction and creating similar fanworks for him. discussion of racism re: the Toymaker below:

i tend to veer far away from fandom discourse, and don't believe enjoying a bad character = glorifying their bad traits. however, i'm a white person who has privilege in not being personally, directly affected by racism, and i think it's important to have this discussion about the Toymaker, a character whose history is inextricably tied with racism and whose recent depiction is canonically racist, whether we agree with this portrayal or not (or how well it was handled). the following are things we can't, and shouldn't, ignore:

in his original portrayal in the 60s, the Toymaker was played by a white actor (Michael Gough) who wore a Chinese mandarin outfit. this outfit was apparently sourced from the set of Marco Polo due to the BBC's tight budget. even though Michael Gough (the Toymaker's actor) was not putting on an accent nor was he in yellowface (the latter incorrectly sourced from a poorly-tinted print advertising the serial), this choice is unquestionably offensive today.

the word 'Celestial' as in 'The Celestial Toymaker' (alternately the name of the serial and sometimes applied to the Toymaker himself) was used as a slur for Chinese people at some point in history. i can't verify, but i believe it was sometime between the 19th and 20th century. although it appears that the term was supposed to refer to the Toymaker in its astronomical context, as a godlike, transient being, in combination with his outfit it is obviously offensive.

in the original broadcast 'The Celestial Toymaker', the King of Hearts (one of the Toymaker's pawns) outright says the N word. this is while reciting the 'eeny, meeny, miny, moe' rhyme, and appears to have been an ad-lib by the actor. this is revoltingly racist, and is rightly cut from most audio re-airs or animations.

the Toymaker as depicted in 'The Giggle' is a racist; he freely makes racist microaggressions and uses stereotypical accents in order to torment other people. the most overt example of this is his 'you must be used to sunnier climes' comment to Charles Bannerjee, a brown-skinned British man of Indian descent (his parents being from Kerala is sourced from 'The Giggle' novelisation). in the BTS for this episode, RTD has said this portrayal is a conscious effort to address the character's racist history: canonising his original outfit as a purposeful, offensive choice.

responses to this modern canonisation of the Toymaker as an actual racist have been mixed:

some feel it's a clever way of boiling the character's history down and making a truly despicable villain.

others feel it's a heavy-handed attempt to 'get ahead of the curve' of being criticised for the character's legacy, particularly as there was nothing to indicate the character was racist himself in the original portrayal. these are roughly my feelings about this choice.

for some, it makes sense that the Toymaker is racist because he views everything as a game, including playing with character's race and culture: it's all a performance to him, and as a nonhuman, godlike being, why would he have our cultural sensitivities except to weaponise them and hurt us?

however, by the same stroke, some wonder why would the Toymaker be racist at all if he likely exists beyond our human notions of race, as well as other qualities like gender, sex, age, etc.?

wherever you fall on this spectrum of feelings towards the Toymaker's character, ignoring this history and these facts can be harmful. i've seen a lot of POC upset and alienated alternately by the choice to canonise the Toymaker's racism, as well as the choice to bring back the Toymaker at all given the character's history. now, i'm a fan of the Toymaker. i love camp, theatrical villains; showy reality-benders with little regard for personal space; awful bastards who murder and abuse and don't care one jot about who they hurt. he's a fantastic concept with awesome powers and undeniable style, and the moment the Toymaker was announced, i knew i was going to fixate on him. this is a common feeling for lots of people: many of us simp for gorgeous bad guys, and that's fine! however, i'm conscious of doing real harm by either replicating the Toymaker's racism, or choosing to ignore it entirely. even if i disagree with this recent characterisation, i would hate for anyone to feel disrespected, excluded, or harmed by my fandom activities, particularly of the gushing 'oh he's so cool/handsome/etc.' variety, or creating ship, x Reader, x OC fanworks. so here's what i'm thinking of doing:

in my fanworks for the Toymaker, i will not be recreating his overtly racist characterisation. although i may be replicating, for instance, his pseudo-German accent (a Bavarian stereotype), i will not be writing him using microaggressions, nor will i be expanding on this trait by writing him using slurs or similar racist behaviour. this is because i feel doing so would be more harmful to my friends who are POC, as well as strangers who may stumble across the fanworks. this is also because i do not feel i could handle such a subject in a nuanced, meaningful way, and don't want to inadvertently upset people just trying to have fun in fandom.

to prevent the former being an erasure of the character's racism, i will link to this disclaimer if the Toymaker's racism is relevant to a fanwork/discussion. the aspects of the Toymaker that i enjoy are centred around his being a ridiculous, playful character, and i have no interest in exploring his bigotry. likewise, i do not want to continually remind POC fans about his racist characterisation, as i do personally feel that the way RTD handled the topic was clumsy and ill-informed. however, i recognise that i have privilege in being able to make that choice, and do not wish to glorify racism as an attractive, desirable trait.

i understand that there will be folks on both sides of the aisle who will feel strongly about the choice to enjoy the Toymaker as a character at all. some may feel strongly that fandom is not activism, and that posts like this aren't necessary when simping for a bad guy played by an attractive actor. others may be actively harassing people for finding the Toymaker attractive, or as a character worthy of exploration. i feel strongly that no one should be harassed for enjoying things in fiction, and i will not tolerate hateful or abusive language/tactics being used in any facet of this or other discussions. i hope that we are able to have open, honest, and informed conversations about the Toymaker's racism, both historically and in the present. we shouldn't shy away from the topic because it makes us uncomfortable, and people do have a right to choose whether or not to engage with triggering content. let's do our best to be mindful and respectful of each other's boundaries, educate one another where possible, and continue to have fun in fandom without harming others.

thank you kindly for reading this! this was written as well as i know how, but please do let me know if this approach seems like a good idea, or if there are other things i should be considering. take care, and have a lovely day 💖🙏

[tinkerbitch69]

Hmm…oh!

Hello there!

Welcome to the Doctor Who fandom! I see your new here, so I’ve provided some orientation material to help you settle into the fandom and explain a few things you might be a little confused about, sweetie.

Please ignore the screams! ☺️

[chaosandthe-deadblog]

hi i'm a sapphic ship in a fandom, but don't worry, i'm one of the good ones! yes haha one of the girls is a happy energetic sunshine one. yes the other one is dark and mean. but don't worry i'm one of the good ships. yes the dark one is secretly soft, because lesbians can't do anything wrong ever! yes, i'm one of the good lesbian ships, the girls are never masculine or mean to each other or have any type of complexity whatsoever! because i'm a good lesbian ship. and the girls are also never bi or pan. because im a good lesbian ship. the guys can have complex dynamics and issues because they're bad ships, don't worry, mine has no conflict or bad things because lesbians are cutsey and wholesome always! lesbians never do anything wrong! lesbians are cute femenine soft girls! no there's also no sexuality at all, because that's gross, no one wants to see that. i'm a good lesbian ship. don't worry.

[gingerteaonthetardis]

Abbey, did you notice how the Rose and Ten/Rose hate is getting so strong and persistent lately? It is making me feel uncomfortable, because most of it is rooted in hypocrisy and misogyny. And the same people claiming to adore Nine/Rose while blatantly roasting Rose, and calling her misogynistic slurs… I try not to let this affect me, but I relate to Rose and seeing her constantly being called a "whore", called bland, stupid, clingy and/or unlikeable, reading she was only loved by the Doctor because she’s blonde and white, that she should have died… It’s like I am being attacked myself. It feels awful. :(

Also, most of it comes from either dudebros or Martha stans, especially the ones who ship her with Ten. Like…

hey, nonny! i'm quite sick, so forgive me if this reply isn't as clear as it could be. i am trying to extend grace across the board here, but i'm also on a lot of cold meds, lmao. another disclaimer: i'm not an authority on anything at all in the world.

the long and short of it is that you're right, this is a bunch of gross, misogynistic bullshit you're seeing right now! however, it's not quite accurate to say that this is a thing happening lately.

it wears new faces, but basically since nuwho started airing, people have found reasons to hate rose. people hated that she was uneducated, that she was poor, that she was a teenager, that she had acne, that she had the audacity to grow as a character, that she dressed in a certain way, and oh, did i mention that they really really hated that she was poor and uneducated? a lot of it was thinly-veiled classism (or not veiled at all) mixed with a spattering of misogyny, straight up, and a lot of rose fans were demeaned for their love of her.

seeing these sorts of takes has always been an unfortunate fact of existing in this fandom.

however, it is also important to point out that there was (and still is, i'm sure) a lot of racism baked into this fandom, and into rtd's era in general. i have less direct experience with this, but i am aware overall of the vitriol martha was subject to as a character, how dismissive people were of her being a viable love interest for ten, and it's almost impossible not to see how she was subject to humiliations within the canon of the show that white characters simply were not. i can guess, though i cannot cite any examples myself, that some black fans and fans of color in general have been demeaned and made to feel unwelcome here.

this is, like the above, an awful fact of the fandom and its history.

these are not necessarily equivalent. but they're both realities.

SO, cut to now. you have a fandom that has undergone several cataclysmic shifts, has imploded, has turned on itself dozens of times before. there are people who care about rose and are understandably defensive of her. there are people who care about martha and are understandably defensive of her. there are people who hate them both. there are plenty of people (like myself) who love both characters, who have nuanced reads of them. you have people who maybe ship one pairing or the other but not at cost of either rose or martha. you have multishippers. maybe some of us even ship martha and rose with each other, because we're cool and sexy and love women.

but then there are shit-stirrers. there are people sending hate to real living human beings in what they perceive as defense of their faves. there are users misrepresenting themselves as fans of anything when they are, in fact, just attention-starved, brain-poisoned lonely people.

and their shit ass takes are, i'm sorry to say, an unfortunate fact of this fandom.

they are not, however, representative of the majority of ninerose fans or tenmartha fans. the people bullying uninvolved ninerose bloggers? they are not representative of the majority of tenrose fans.

they're not representative of anything but their own misery.

the fact is, there are so many ways to be a fan of this stupid space show, so many ways of engaging in fandom, and some people have just chosen to be cruel, misogynistic, racist, classist, or some combination of the former. they've chosen to be unoriginal, hateful bullies, which is sad and sometimes very hurtful, because it's a huge disservice to both the material, the people who made it, and the people who enjoy it.

but!! there is an upside, i think, which is that we can make our spaces kinder if we curate them well. it's down to us to report harassment and to block people who make tumblr toxic. it is down to us to reblog the art and stories and meta and gifs that bring us joy, or that we feel add depth and meaning to the show. and it is essential!! that we remember we are here voluntarily. if fandom isn't fun anymore, if it makes us feel bad about ourselves, it often means it's time to step back and find our footing again. to unfollow some people, follow some new people. to try to connect with the people we do like and follow in a more personal way. to find the people in our personal lives who make us feel safe and tell them what's going on.

i'm sorry for what you're feeling, nonny. you're not the only one. <3 don't be ashamed if you feel you need support from irl friends/mutuals/etc.

i don't know how long you've been a part of the fandom, but as someone who has been around for 5 years and who has friends who have been here for twice, even three times that long, just know that there are plenty of good people around if you look for them.