#dunk and egg speculation

[nulnoildrinker]

On the question of who the descendants of Dunk are, the answers seem pretty clear cut.

Brienne is his spiritual successor. She is abnormally tall, a defender of the downtrodden, and a true knight, despite the role society tries to force upon her. Also Evenfall Hall had Dunk's shield lying around in a very "grandpa's old stuff"-type of way.

Hodor, a giant of a man, whose grandmother could have been in the perfect time and place to have been ✨️dunked✨️.

And last of all the Lannister siblings. Because Dunk was at his most Fabio-esque when around Tywin's grandmother, Rohanne Webber.

I'm not saying that Tywin necessarily descends from a bastard line of house Lannister, but what I am saying that Tywin shared Grandma Rohanne with his cousin/wife, Joanna. As such, the chances that our favorite trio of siblings descend from our favorite Lunk is twice as big.

But why, you might ask?

Because "The Giant of Lannister", the nickname given to Tyrion by Shae is an obvious clue left to us by GRRM himself. It is known.

Because banging his sister was deemed "sinful", Jaime would have to look for a more distant relative. In his defence, thie case of incest between him and Brienne would be less severe than the one between his parents.

Because much like Dunk, Cersei's head always was thick as a castle wall; but as the books have progressed, the rest of her has followed suit. 😳

[befooremoonrisee]

i think it would be very funny if one of the redheads actresses casted for dunk and egg was the ashford girl because people would go crazy over the ashford tourney sansa theory

[biichama]

Can't get back to sleep so I'm thinking about how Brienne of Tarth can be related to both Duncan the Tall and the Targaryens. Because, like, the first is confirmed by word of George and the second comes from TWOIAF, right? Well, 'recent ties' to House Targaryen anyway, which I assume are ties of blood but who knows. Whatever the ties are, it does mean that they're something that people in ASOIAF know about, since TWOIAF like F&B is written as if it's an actual book from the setting.

So like from what I've seen from, like, reading meta is that the prevailing theory is that Dunk got one of Egg's sisters pregnant and she got married to the Lord of Tarth to cover it up, so both ancestries are by way of one of Selwyn Tarth's parents. And that more or less fits? It's a Targaryen connection that people would know about, plus a Dunk connection that they might not. Too bad for the Tarths that their lord got cuckolded but maybe Selwyn's other parent was an actual Tarth by ancestry somehow, who knows?

But like that's not the only way it could have happened? So I wanted to get down my thoughts now on like some various other alternate options.

Option 1: Selwyn has one Targaryen-related parent and one parent fathered by Dunk. Both ancestries come from him.

Basically what it says on the tin. A Targaryen daughter (likely Egg's sister) married the Lord of Tarth, had his kid, and then that kid married Dunk's kid with whoever. It gives you a known Targaryen connection with options for known and unknown Dunk connections.

Option 2: Selwyn has a Targaryen-related mother and his biological father (whether or not he knows it) secretly is Dunk. Both ancestries come from him.

So I checked some dates on the wiki to see if we had a canon age for Selwyn and it turns out that he's actually in his mid-fifties, giving him a birthdate in the 240s, after Dunk joined the Kingsguard but before the tragedy of Summerhall. So like it's possible that he could have been secretly fathered by Dunk somehow, though I don't know how likely it is. But it's not like we haven't had Kingsguards fathering kids outside their vows before, coughcoughJaimecough.

Option 3: Selwyn is descended from Targaryens, Brienne's mother is descended from Dunk.

It's a pretty basic theory, honestly. A Targaryen woman, likely Egg's sister, marries into the Tarths and then Selwyn marries Dunk's probably granddaughter (or secret daughter???) Nobody said the Dunk genes were from Selwyn.

Option 4: Selwyn is (somehow) descended from Dunk, Brienne's mother is descended from Targaryens.

So yeah, Dunk's DNA gets into House Tarth in whatever fashion, then Selwyn marries a woman who's related to House Targaryen somehow. Probably via a previous Targaryen woman (possibly Egg's sister?) marrying out of the dynasty, though I do like the sub-option where she's the daughter of Prince Duncan the Small and Jenny of Oldstones quite a lot.

It does beg the question of why Aerys wouldn't have considered Brienne's mother as a possible bride for Rhaegar if she's the Targaryen connection, but idk maybe she had smallfolk cooties if she was Jenny's daughter or she was already married to Selwyn with Galladon on the way before Aerys gave up on Rhaella having a daughter to marry to Rhaegar, even if she wasn't. Checking the the wiki shows that Galladon would have already been born before the Baratheons left for Volantis.

Options 5+: Both Brienne's Dunk and Targaryen ancestry is through her mother, however it happened.

Maybe the Dunk Knocked Up Egg's Sister theorists are right, but the cover-up marriage was to someone else other than the Lord of Tarth. Or some version of Option 1 or 2 happened, but substitute Brienne's mother for Selwyn. They all still fit the basic idea of known 'recent ties' between the Tarths and the Targaryens.

Option ???: The 'recent ties' to House Targaryen are not ties of blood.

Which is legit, but then what are the ties??? Like if they're ties of blood that at least fits in with Brienne's pale blondness. TELL US YOUR SECRETS, GEORGE!!!

[nobodysuspectsthebutterfly]

Have you ever done speculation on future Dunk & Egg titles? I've been wondering what the title of the final story that would presumably focus on Summerhall would be. I think GRRM once listed The Lord Commander as a title (though I might just be thinking of The Kingsguard), but I think he was LC when the Laughing Storm whose name is currently escaping me sort of rebelled and Dunk settled that? Idk, just curious on your thoughts on future D&E titles

I'm not sure I have any thoughts, sorry? Like, I know that the story with the working title The She-Wolves of Winterfell will have a different title, but I can't think of what the title will be. (The Northern Visitor, The (Really Tall) Household Guard?) As for Summerhall, The Lord Commander is possible, since Dunk was not yet LC during the trial by combat with Lyonel Baratheon (and that story is probably The Champion).

My thing is more about speculating what stories could happen in the working titles GRRM has listed. Like, I think The Village Hero must involve the story of how Pennytree became a royal fief, and thus would involve the Blackwood-Bracken Feud and probably the first time Egg meets Betha. I have the feeling that The Sellsword involves the Third Blackfyre Rebellion, Dunk and Egg either with the Golden Company themselves (as spies for Bloodraven?) or with another mercenary group (maybe the Company of the Rose or the Second Sons?) that encounters the GC right before they invade Westeros, D&E's efforts to end the war, and Aerion (himself a former? Second Son) being a douchebag as always. (Probably he's the one who dishonorably kills Haegon Blackfyre after he surrenders.)

The Champion would have Lyonel's rebellion (and Jenny and her Prince of Dragonflies), so The Kingsguard could include the tourney that has 10-year-old Barristan the Bold as a mystery knight, or the tourney when he was 16 and unhorsed both Duncans and was knighted. Unless The Kingsguard would be Lyonel's war, in which case The Champion could be a story involving the fall of Danelle Lothston, the shift in the course of the Trident (away from the Inn of the Crossroads), and perhaps the time Ser Lymond held the bridge against Ser Maynard. And of course, The Lord Commander would be the Tragedy at Summerhall, and how Dunk saved Rhaella and baby Rhaegar, but in the end died with his king.

But otherwise, I'm not good at devising future D&E titles myself. Hope this helps anyway!

[marwyn]

Definitely

(The World of Ice and Fire - Ancient History: The Doom of Valyria)

dany can do this in twow

[allyriadayne]

rereading the beginning of the hedge knight and i'm soooo interested in the differences in parenting between baelor and maekar.

we first meet maekar's sons daeron and egg. one too drunk and the other wanting to run away then we meet baelor's son valarr, a knight with good enough ability to ride in a tourney and this is what their parents have to say about them

baelor is understanding of his family. trying to make a compromise because he was /born/ of the compromise between the targaryen and martell. valarr obviously doesn't have baelor's ability with the lance (and the question of the competitors throwing the competition is another) but he's good enough and seems to enjoy at least the pageantry.

to maekar baelor's soft because he tells him he "should never have commanded [daeron] to enter the lists". maekar is not a person who like to be tell what to do, and what's more he believes his sons are extensions of himself. his sons are going to be perfect and defeat baelor's son if it kills them. it's not the first time daeron has disappeared, per baelor's words and we can guess why! maekar's expectations weight him down. the anvil never yields to anything!

baelor tells maekar "daeron is your blood and mine" in the excerpts at the beginning, seeking to make his brother understand his own son for what he is (and that he makes the comparison between daeron, aerys and rhaegel is so so interesting! maekar's own frustrations with his brothers later projected to daeron?).

later baelor once again express the same sentiment "they are blood of his blood" but with completely different meaning. /his/ blood, not /your and mine/. maekar's blood, his family, is different than the others, TO MAEKAR. they need to be better, faster, stronger, to stand out. he sees his family with the same fourth brotherism pov he feels. the inferiority syndrome to the max.

...and this inferiority is what makes him push daeron to enter the trial as well, considering he very well knows how inept his son is at this seeing he knows daeron's habits of whoring and drinking. maekar doesn't understand other people besides himself, he's half fooled by aerion's good boy facade and thinks daeron is fine and he only needs pushing.

in contrast, while baelor seems sad to dunk when he comes out to fight for him he comes with valarr's armor. this is mere speculation but i want to think baelor thought valarr would offer himself to fight for dunk's cause. baelor clearly supports it and he must think his son does as well. but from what we've seen about valarr, he's mediocre at best and has no great interest in great deeds, if he were he would train harder and probably be as good as baelor. but he is not! he accepts valarr won't change his mind just as he accepts maekar won't either. so baelor must wear valarr's tighter armor and be the good he wants to see in the world.

[calmerut]

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[that-dreaming-dragon]

Transience and Mutability of Identity

So I read two really powerful and beautiful posts today. One about the transience of identity. The other one about You Can Just Be.

Like I’d mentioned on day 14, my personal color is orange. Looking back my journal, I had talked about my orangeness as well as how I just, had this idea of myself.

I mentioned the earlier two posts together due to their relevance. At least in my eyes. As a shapeshifter, it is all about change. Identities aren’t always so set in stone. I like the words inherent and intrinsic, stuff from within. As we experience the world around us, time and space, we experience change both outward and inward. It can also mean that it is okay to not have all the pieces, or just make up stuff as you go.

It is your identity, do whatever you want with it forever.

I mentioned something to the other polymorph and shapeshifter of otherconnect discord, that I wondered if I may have been a polymorph, then the draconity took over, and nowadays I’m just a draconic shapeshifter.

My origin stories and theories are always messy, confusing, chicken-or-egg situation. Memories are also fickle thing, every time you try to recall it will twist it a little. What can we be sure of the stuff we remember is true or not? And does it really matter?

If you didn’t click in to any of the links, that’s okay. Let me tell you about my own experience a bit.

Before draconity, I started without a “true” form. I started like your typical alterhuman stories, obsessed about the creature I later learned are called dragons. I’m not sure of the exact timeline of things, but let’s say while in the process of understanding my own nonhumanity (before draconity), I was also in the process of finding my color.

It goes like this. I say red was my color. Then yellow. And then, when a orange coded side character finally shows up, I say “that, that’s my color.”

I think by the time I found the word dragon, orange was already cemented. And while I was discovering who I am as a dragon, I suspected the orange is a intentionally added on aspect, because of how much obsessed I am with the color orange. It’s hard to tell if my special interest is the orange color or dragons (or even birds or art), perhaps all of the above.

In the dreamwidth journal entry linked after my day 14 post, I talk about how I had a dragon that I tentatively dubbed “me” prior to the orange fuzzball dream dragon.

A bipedal dragon with spiraling curled horns, frilly fin for cheeks, belly platted, webbed wings, sharp spine on elbows and ankles. Sounds like a pretty typical western dragon no? But like Daski (@indornaga)’s writing, you can also see foreshadowing, breadcrumbs of my true self.

I really have no idea what happened, but a year was all it took, and the barely there on my mind dragon was cast out. My orange self slam-dunked into my mind, perhaps not quite out of nowhere.

The mutability, how casually I just changed everything. From scale to fur, webbed to feathered wings, spiky spines replaces by soft mane and round features. Somehow still bipedal, in a manner of speaking. My main mode of travel was either flight, or roll.

The previous dragon never got colored though. And I think that’s where the created element comes in. I just went and slap that orange on there. Oh and you can see the red and yellow remained. Why white wings? Probably just because it make sense. At this point my eyes are so cartoonish there’s no obvious color, but later on my eyes are rainbowy pearlescent with rosey pink tint, and black sclera.

I have a thing against mainstream meta concepts.

It is merely speculation, but I suspected that may be why I am the dragon I am. I just want to break tradition, separate from the average mindset, I don’t want to be anywhere near “typical western or eastern dragon”. But that’s mostly a theory that is tied into the potential of just how much of my true self is created. Like the whole involuntary vs voluntary discourse, it is ultimately a pointless thing to ponder. I am already who I am today.

You know the whole thing how some with otherlink identity will get to a point where you can no longer tell where the voluntariness is anymore? Maybe I was originally voluntarily a orange furred dragon, maybe I truly is just a orange furred dragon, involuntarity and all. It all seem so inconsequential in the grand scheme of things. The whole contemplation don’t add much value to my self discovery besides anxiety and distress.

You can just pick a color. And maybe along the way, you found other pieces to fit into your personal canon, or you end up finding new parts of yourself. Alterhuman experience is after all, a wonder.

[atopvisenyashill]

Do you think Rhae Targaryen might’ve married a Hightower? It seems like a sensible match and it might explain where Alerie and Lynesse got their looks from.

First of all, thank you for giving me a chance to speculate about mysterious timeline shenanigans, it’s my favorite pastime lmao. 

Second of all - it IS a theory I like, yes, and I also kind of like how it plays with the history of Targaryen women, but especially with a potential namesake for Rhae: Rhaena of Pentos and her own happy Hightower marriage, which is the other big theory about why the Hightowers look suspiciously Targaryen-ish. Gives me hope both ladies were happy in their marriages <3

Thirdly - okay i’m gonna over analyze here, let’s buckle in. 

Targaryen Princess marriages tend to fall into a few categories. There’s the most obvious brother-sister, first cousin, or uncle-niece marriages. For that category there is Visenya, Rhaenys, Alysanne, Jocelyn, Alyssa, Aemma, Daena, Naerys, Aelora, Daenora, Shaera, and Rhaella. 

For marriages outside the family, they tend to marry a family with Valyrian heritage  - Alyssa Velaryon’s second marriage, Rhaenys, Rhaenyra, Baela, Rhaelle, and probably Elaena’s marriage to Ronnel Penrose is in this category as well.

The last category is the fun one - when they marry someone without Valyrian heritage OR a vassal, they tend towards rich, powerful, and ancient families, who have been hanging around KL a lot. To break it down: 

Daella married Rodrik Arryn, a Lord Paramount who had been at court since Alysanne and Jaehaerys were young. 

Viserra is engaged to Theomore Manderly, NOT a Lord Paramount but a powerful, ancient, and well connected family & Theomore was friends with Aly & Jaehaerys when they were young. 

Rhaenyra has an affair with Harwin Strong, the heir to a powerful, ancient, and rich house, whose dad is on the Small Council so he’s in KL constantly & gets a job there instead of at home. 

Shaera is engaged to (though she does not marry) Luthor Tyrell, the heir to a Lord Paramount. 

Rhaena of Pentos is basically our One complete exception to a lot of these rules for Targaryen women marrying - she marries twice, both times to a house that is not the lord paramount for their region, and both times are likely to be kinda controversial. Firstly, because the Corbrays are old but broke, and secondly, because Garmund is a Hightower. We don’t know why she married Garmund, but what interests me is Corwyn, despite being of a lower status than Rhaena, is at KL constantly because his brother is on the council of regents, similar to Harwin, Rodrik, and Theomore (makes me wonder if she meets Garmund because the Hightowers try to get back into politics once Aegon III no longer has a regent).

All that to say - we know Daella (Egg’s Daella) and Rhae are both in this category and that’s FASCINATING to me. We have no real context for how they marry, or when, or for what reasons and there’s so many fun outcomes here. 

It’s easy to guess who Daella marries - the Evenstar, though she has Dunk’s baby - just based off of a few clues, but we have no idea if she marries for love (and then falls out of love), if she marries for politics, because she’s pregnant and needs a proper wedding now right now, etc., and I’m really excited to get to this, i NEED more dunk & egg because i NEED to watch Dunk and Daella fall in love so badly. 

And then, per your ask, we have Rhae!! 

Besides Rhaena, she’s the only married but unaccounted for Targaryen who could explain why Alerie and Lynesse potentially look Targaryen-ish. Rhaena is way far back, but we know that the silver and gold hair can crop up sometimes later on - Valarr Targaryen had a streak of silver despite having a brown haired mother, father, and grandmother. I actually think it would be fun if both of them married into the Hightowers, Rhaena through the female line and Rhae by marrying the heir, to explain the coloring, but Rhae by herself is still a good option. Too much math here but - Leyton was probably born between 230-250, which matches up with Selwyn Tarth, born in 245, and Selwyn’s grandmother being Daella, born in 199, therefore Rhae probably married Leyton’s grandfather, mayyyyyyybe his father, so Hightowers having Valyrian features as Rhae’s great-grandkids isn’t a huge stretch, esp with Andals being so fair haired in general. BUT, as I laid out above, the female lines tend to intermingle again later down the line, like with the Penroses, and with the Rhaenyra-Laenor match. if Rhae marries a House that already has Valyrian blood (like Elaena did), that also explains why the Hightowers are a lil Targaryen-ish, and even fits with the patterns of Targaryen marriages as well.

I think it’s likely that whoever they marry would be someone who is at Court often, perhaps serving on the Small Council or their parent serves on the Small Council, or has a friendship with Maekar or Aerys. And even makes sense, because lowkey the reigns of Aerys I - Aegon V are super messy and full of marriage drama, and what’s better than a Targaryen princess making eyes at a cute, silver haired Hightower lord while her daddy is dealing with a Peake uprising, I ask you. 

Anyways, yes, very excited for Rhae, I desperately want her to have married a Hightower with love on the mind because I think both Targ Lady-Hightower Lord marriages going well when the two Targ King-Hightower Queen marriages are notoriously shitty, would be really funny. Also, watch me smoosh Dragon Twins references into every other Targaryen sister relationship until George himself stops me!!

[thephantomcasebook]

What is even the point of having Aegon sexually violate his mother??!!! Had a cringefest yesterday with my friend after reading that speculation. The sad part is none of this shi* is beyond Hess...and even Ryan, who openly implied in the GOT Con that Daemon was probably 'in love' with Viserys. They were ready to take inc£st to a whole new level. 😭

I think there is a great trap that is absolutely inherent in George RR Martin's writing, in general.

His stories are built on an incredibly subversive and nihilistic foundation that was meant to challenge fantasy tropes that J.R.R. Tolkien and Robert Howard created in the 1930s/1940s.

However, the problem with that is that GRRM has the discipline - most of the time (Read @duxbelisarius military analysis of "The Dance) - to know what the line is for his universe and how far one can take the nihilistic nature of the story and then pull it back. the Dunk & Egg stories are a masterclass in that type of 1960's Marvel Age morality tales in which doing the right thing is the hardest thing to do and you don't get rewarded for it, but the main characters do it anyway and it costs them dearly every time.

However, if you don't recognize that, than the ASoIaF Universe with all it's Nihilism and Brutality is just the type of world that is seductive to lazy and bad writers to dream up and bring into existence some of the most horrific and degenerate situations, because, they believe that is the world of "Game of Thrones". They believe that everything is awful and bad things happen to people all the time. So they can make or write something exploitive, because, they believe it is in the very DNA of Westeros.

That type of small minded thinking is also tempting for someone who has a personal mission to write in their political or social agenda to torture and languish female characters by turning every male character into a monstrous rapist, abuser, or generally unhinged in order to make some bullshit Sapphic social commentary about the treatment of women in the real world and how men hold all the power and patriarchy and all that bullshit.

The issue remains that they fundamentally don't understand the Jack Kirby and Stan Lee type of morals that GRRM is trying to set down. Yes, bad things happen. Yes, humanity is capable of true evil. And the right thing is hard and can be stupid, and you can be punished for doing it. But that doesn't mean that you don't do it. GRRM is constantly taking characters and evolving or degrading their morality, based on the Marvel Age principle of the 1960s Comics he grew up loving.

You give a writer a story in Westeros and they'll show you what kind of storyteller, good or bad, they are by the end of it.

[nulnoildrinker]

Sure, some of Old Nan's stories might be kernels of ancient folk wisdom inherited through millennia of oral traditions. But have you concidered how fun it is to lie to children?

She likely did the Lucamore Strong Limbo with Dunk, and we all know that he likes women with that extra little spark in their eyes.

[goodqueenaly]

We see in the Dunk and Egg books what Egg's relationships with his older brothers was like, but what do you think his relationships with Daella and Rhae were like given what (very) little we know about them?

Virtually impossible to say, given the almost total lack of information we have on them, much less Egg's relationship with them. We know that in their childhood, Rhae tried to give Egg a love potion so that he would marry her instead of their sister Daella, but we get no sense from Egg on how this incident made him feel about either of his sisters (only Dunk's reflection on his, Egg's, casual approach to Targaryen incest and Egg's own youthful insistence on joining the Kingsguard). I think it's possible if not probable that Egg was educated alongside his sisters: we don’t see much in terms of Westerosi children's education in the books, but there is direct precedent both for mixed-gender classes, so to speak (when Shireen is taught alongside Edric Storm and Devan Seaworth on Dragonstone), as well as what I would consider indirect precedent (Sansa's ability to compare her reading and writing skills to those of her brothers, for example, suggests to me that all of them were taught these skills together, to give her a more immediate means of comparison). However, given both his official, and to some extent gender-dependent, roles (as a page for two years to the royal court in King's Landing and a would-be squire to his brother Daeron), it's also possible that Egg did not spend as much time with either or both of his sisters growing up. None of the above precludes Egg having a relationship with Rhae and/or Daella while young and/or in their adulthood, of course; these are simply points to consider.

It is worth pointing out the possibility (which I like to consider true) that Egg was from a young age betrothed to his sister Daella. If that was the case, then I might hope that in future Tales of Dunk and Egg our young co-protagonist will discuss his relationship with his sister and sometime fiancee. Indeed, given the strong possibility, I think, that a future entry in the Tales will describe the romance of Dunk and Daella, we could just as easily (and not mutually exclusively) hear from Daella about her relationship with Egg. (Where that leaves Rhae is unclear, although as I've noted so little can be speculated about Rhae's marital, much less personal, future.)

Again, however, this all remains to be seen. I certainly hope that GRRM will make Rhae and Daella interesting, full-fledged characters with unique and developed relationships with each other and their other family members (not to mention those outside their family), but I also can't pretend that I've not been disappointed in depictions of other Targaryen princesses (*cough* Fire and Blood *cough*)

[daenystheedreamer]

How do you think they’ll format the new dunk and egg series? I’m feeling like an 8 episode season per short story.

Also I’d love to see them adapt the wolves of Winterfell short story that’s been speculated

I'm hoping it's episodic, but I suspect it won't be :( hopefully they won't centre the targs but i think we all know its gonna be otherwise

[azureflight]

So, GRRM posted this a few days ago

While the praise heaped upon Shogun is absolutely correct and 100% deserved, that's not the part that's stuck with. (But seriously, go watch Shogun, and then go read the entire Asian Saga, go!) Rather, it is this part:

This is important, because "oh, show is the show and the books are the books" has been his go to defense against any fandom outrage about any changes.

Now he is suddenly completely making a 180 turn?! "How many children does Scarlett O'Hara have?" was his go to quote to demonstrate separate canons for books and adaptations existing and being equally legitimate.

What happened George? What happened? You were super happy about Dunk & Egg just 3 days before this post, so that's not it.

The script for the Conqueror's story is not even close to being finished, so that's not it.

What happened and where?

I don't know what we're gonna get in the second season of House of the Dragon, but as far as speculations go, this is the first thing that actually made me go "oh shit." What have they done George? Is Nettles truly cut? Or is there more?

[imaginarianisms]

b.etha b.lackwood actually has potential to be a Very intriguing character when you rly sit down & think about it. like. this is all based on speculation & i have no idea what fire & blood is gonna do surrounding the later targaryen kings & their queens & i haven't personally read the dunk & egg novellas so i could definitely be wrong about a few things but this is a meta on b.ethania b.lackwood.

b.ethania blackwood was born in 201 AC & would've been 5 years old when her father (or possibly even her grandfather as her father wasn't named, only known as lord blackwood) lord q.uentyn blackwood of raventree hall died in a tourney & killed by ser otho bracken who'd later become known as the brute of bracken at a tourney in king's landing during the reign of d.aeron ii the good targaryen which reignited the eons long feud between the blackwoods & the brackens (three years before the tourney of ashford where baelor 'breakspear' was accidentally killed by maekar targaryen, aegon v's father, which is where dunk & egg takes place), & thus i'd imagine that would cause b.etha to hate the brackens because of her (grand?)father's untimely death. to add salt to injury, she would've seen him die in front of her eyes because although he used a blunted longaxe, he struck him so hard that he stove in his helm's visor & his face beneath & that could've traumatized b.etha severely. maybe her older brother (or father, depending on if you think q.uentyn blackwood was her grandfather), the so far unnamed lord blackwood, inherited after quentyn's death. she would've been 8 years old when d.aeron ii 'the good' targaryen died during the great spring sickness. so, b.etha would've been raised in a time where women were more valued in comparison to the previous eras with the help of m.yriah m.artell, daeron ii targaryen's queen. house blackwood never lacked for powerful women in their house, however, but i think she would've looked up to queen m.yriah m.artell as a child. let's go with the scenario that betha is quentyn blackwood's granddaughter, she has every reason to hate the brackens & that's not even getting into petty blackwood-bracken feuds, this is a legitimate grievance in her family & i think that would've forced her to grow fast.

she's known to be willful & spirited, similar to her ancestors agnes blackwood & alysanne blackwood & later in life lyanna stark & arya stark. she would've grown up likely around someone of the likes of brynden rivers / bloodraven & shiera seastar & if she's anything like her female blackwood relatives, she's fierce, strong-willed, loves animals & an excellent archer, hunter & warrior & hella bisexual, but it's also plausible that she has the power of greensight & was a seeress, maybe even a skinchanger. maybe she even learned sorcery from both brynden & shiera later on in life but considering that the blackwoods are known for their magic & mysticism, that wouldn't be surprising at all. maybe she's brynden rivers' half sister through melissa blackwood or smth bc she was definitely related to melissa blackwood & she very well could've learned political intrigue from them. so, bethania could probably be an intriguing mix of agnes blackwood, alysanne blackwood, lyanna stark, sansa stark, arya stark & val/ygritte were all merged together into one badass powerhouse of a woman which i think aegon would've respected. house blackwood was originally from the north but for whatever reason they were exiled thousands of years ago & now that they're in the predominantly andal (read: european white folx) dominated riverlands, they've had to adapt as a minority unlike the indigenous majority north, & while they're the only indigenous house in the riverlands (& one of the few houses in general) that still follow the old gods, they participate in jousts & tourneys like the other andal southron houses do & they're powerful & wealthy enough to get away with it. it's possible that bloodraven may have inadvertently set up aegon v to meet betha bc he's kind of a giant troll, or maybe she saw him coming in her dreams. i'd& like to think that she & aegon bonded over the mystical & their adventures & aegon's mother was dyanna dayne so he would've been aware & raised in a time where women were respected & aegon himself is half if not more than half dornish. so considering he's half a dayne, he likely would've been raised in tales of brave chivalry & i think that aegon & betha would've bonded over that, too.

betha & aegon married for love which was exceptionally rare. i'd like to think that her fierce nature endeared aegon & the fact that he was a targaryen prince but was friendly to & practically grew up & lived among the common people would greatly intrigue betha, but also at the same time bc they're both stubborn, it definitely caused some friction from time to time, especially when he became king & he was often in wars as he was often described as forced to spend most of his reign in armor quelling one rising or another most notably the fourth blackfyre rebellion so he wasn't at home very often & it's entirely possible they became estranged but still loved each other. they married at summerhall when she was 19 & he was 20. i'd imagine they're both probably shorter than average bc we love to see short couples slay together. they probably could've met as kids before reuniting as teenagers. she & egg running around dunk is a very adorable image. it's also very possible that betha would've known rohanne webber & would've been friends with egg's sisters. aegon was pro-common folk & supported many reforms to give numerous rights & protections for the smallfolk that was unheard of at the time & limiting the rights of the high lords & i'd like to think that bethania definitely supported these reforms that angered a lot of the high lords which frustrated aegon because he couldn't do anything like that when everyone, even his own children, rebelled against him, when literally all he wanted was peace, prosperity & justice for all & i think betha supported him through all of it.

i'd like to think that she was slightly mean but in a good way & was never afraid to speak her mind & let others know when something they said or did was wrong, a kindhearted & pragmatic but also stern, tough-love type of person when necessary & i also think that she was likely a big political player & had a big say behind the scenes. she sometimes had to tell aegon to put his foot down, not that he didn't already have that confidence but sometimes you need a little push to get your point across. i'd& also like to think that betha saw duncan the tall as some kinda big brother figure & liked teasing him about everything at every given opportunity & seeing as brienne of tarth is a descendant of his, i think she'd like brienne very much & would be proud. betha definitely had a very dominant personality in any room she entered & left.

i think that when it comes to parenting, she was the stricter & more dominant one of the two (in more ways than 1), & when their kids end up fucking up big time doesn't hesitate to let them know that they fucked up big time, maybe tosses a slipper at duncan when he gets a lil too mouthy or does smth stupid, like, lbr most of her kids, especially jaehaerys & shaera make some pretty shitty decisions that really ended up fucking aegon & his peaceful reign over & she wouldn't have liked that one bit. i like to think she ended up liking jenny of oldstones, even after she tried to warn jenny away from duncan by telling her the most embarrassing & most annoying stories of all the shenanigans he did since he was born but she liked that anyway & she technically cost duncan the iron throne & she wouldn't have anything against daeron being gay bc its not considered a sin to the old gods. but at the same time No One Fucks With Her Kids. she's like one of those almost embarrassing soccer moms that will be super passionate when aegon, her kids or dunk are performing at tourneys & would straight up fight other ppl in the stands, & she was clearly the more dominant one of the pair, always standing in front of egg & speaking louder than him in social gatherings bc she Knows she's That Bitch. obviously that changed when she became queen & aegon becomes king & obviously they need to watch their behavior in the public eye, but you could easily tell that if you were close to them, that dynamic hadn't changed. i'd like to think that duncan & rhaelle takes the most after bethania physical wise so they look the most visibly indigenous with brown skin, black hair & dark eyes in comparison to paleskinned blonde haired purple eyed jaehaerys & (bc i like valyrians who don't look paleskinned white haired & purple eyed + native targaryens SWEEP) mixed features of paleskinned black haired purple eyed shaera & tanskinned silver haired dark eyed daeron (who i imagine is rhaelle's fraternal twin) & rhaelle was both a mommy & a daddy's girl & even as an adult she's still their babygirl but even though duncan looks like bethania, his personality's a lot more like aegon's. i'd like to think that betha, daella & rhae were the closest of friends once she was formally introduced into the family & they told her all about aegon & all of his worst stories & they'd always be hanging out somewhere & gossiping, with rhae especially, but that's specifically because i'm tired of female romantic rivals trope & aegon never wanted to marry any of his sisters at all, & the aerion thing & the love potion story was enough so please for the love of g-d grrm can we not have incest for one (1) generation.

regardless, she was the last non-targaryen queen before the targaryen dynasty fell & she is robert, stannis, & renly baratheon & rhaegar, viserys & daenerys targaryen's great great grandmother & (legally) joffrey baratheon, myrcella baratheon (legally) & tommen baratheon (legally), mya stone, bella rivers, gendry waters, edric storm, shireen baratheon, laena iii velaryon, corlys iii velaryon, rhaenys targaryen-martell, aegon (vi) targaryen-martell (if young griff really is that aegon, but that's how he'd perceive it either way), jon snow & khalakka rhaego's great great grandmother. she's the ancestor of the vast majority of the five kings & daenerys targaryen save for balon greyjoy & robb stark, but i& suspect the theory that melantha blackwood, wife to lord willam stark, mother of edwyle stark (who married marna locke & had rickard stark who then had brandon, eddard, lyanna & benjen & then the stark children) & jocelyn stark (who married benedict royce in the vale), who could've possibly have fought against the young boy lord edwyle stark's rival claimants of winterfell upon lord beron stark's death during the she wolves of winterfell period, is bethania's younger sister, so that would make bethania the great great great aunt of robb, jon, sansa, arya, bran & rickon in the paternal line through eddard & lyanna & i suspect that's one possibility of where the starks' recent greensight comes from. so with all that in mind, brandon, eddard, lyanna, benjen & rhaegar would be cousins, just as robert & eddard would be cousins, & rickard & aerys ii (his murderer) would be second (?) cousins & that would make rhaegar (& viserys & daenerys) a third cousin of lyanna (& brandon & eddard & benjen for that matter, which collectively makes rhaegar, viserys & daenerys third cousins once removed with all the current era stark children through the blackwoods & ned & robert having the same separation, iirc i believe they'd be, like, third cousins & bc of that, the present day targaryens, starks & baratheons are all direct descendants of bloody benjicot blackwood & daenerys would actually have more blackwood blood than the current era starks & she's also quite a bit of dornish blood who the rhoynar were known to use water magic, & jon has blackwood blood on both rhaegar & lyanna's side). yeah. she would've known a young tywin lannister, very likely a young joanna lannister & young barristan selmy & gerold hightower & likely knew maester aemon & several of the grandparents & parents of the current generation.

in the later years of his reign, aegon was consumed by the search for dragonlore in the hopes of hatching dragons; he was desperate for the power that he believed could bring peace to westeros & his dream of dragons led to the tragedy of summerhall. the books don't really say who exactly died but it's known that aegon v died, as did their son duncan & duncan the tall, aegon v's kingsguard, died there, too & it's very possible that his sisters daella, rhae & their children died there, too. maybe even betha did, too, but i'm leaving that up to interpretation in a scenario where betha could've lived, maybe because she wasn't there or she escaped just in time to look out for her very heavily pregnant granddaughter rhaella targaryen. maybe bethania helped rhaella give birth to & raise rhaegar while the fires consumed summerhall & most of their family in it & bc of that i think betha & rhaella were close. it's also implied that duncan the tall saved rhaella (& betha itc) from the fire before going back in. for the rest of her life, she wore nothing but black in grief for her husband & family.

it's entirely possible that they were fans of daeron ii targaryen the good, who knows, maybe myriah martell could've mentored betha when she was introduced to court & going with the theory that betha could possibly be bloodraven's younger half sister, myriah could've adored her & treated her like a protégé of hers considering she & melissa blackwood may very well have gotten along at court during the reign of aegon the unworthy. betha & aegon also both agreed that the incestuous marriages of so many targaryens did more harm than good (& that's not even getting into his own experiences as a child), but even though betha tried to make politically advantageous betrothal marriages for her own children to house baratheon, house tully, house tyrell & house redwyne, literally every single one of them married for love over duty save for rhaelle: duncan married jenny of oldstones, a mysterious common woman & gave up his throne for her, jaehaerys & shaera got involved with each other despite aegon & betha trying to separate them, daeron was gay & died with his lover ser jeremy during a battle & rhaelle was sent as a peace offering to the baratheons & she's the entire reason why robert, stannis & renly & robert & stannis' children have a claim to the iron throne in the baratheon dynasty bc they have targaryen-blackwood ancestry in the paternal line through their father steffon baratheon. she would've been around when the last blackfyre rebellions & maybe the ninepenny kings were happening (which, btw, the gang was all there, the targaryens, the baratheons, the greyjoys, the starks, the lannisters, the arryns, the tullys & the martells were all there; brynden 'blackfish' tully, tywin lannister, kevan lannister, tygett lannister, quellon greyjoy {asha & theon's grandfather}, ormund baratheon, steffon baratheon, aerys ii targaryen, hoster tully, petyr baelish's father, jon arryn, rickard stark & barristan selmy, all united against the ninepenny kings so a lot of the dynamics & alliances of the past generation began in this war & house blackfyre was ended in the male line).

betha would've likely had duncan at least 19 to 23 at most, but for simplicity's sake i'm going with she had him at 19 & he was conceived on their wedding night at summerhall & later fell pregnant with him; she had jaehaerys ii at 24, shaera at 25, daeron at 27, rhaelle at 27 at least to 33 at most but i'm just gonna say that she had her at 27 as daeron's twin & betha would've unexpectedly become queen at 32 years old in 233 AC. she would be queen for approximately 26 years & when she became queen the brackens were probably crying screaming shitting throwing up & be BIG MAD ngl bc a blackwood of raventree hall becoming queen of the seven kingdoms would've been so humiliating for the brackens & i wouldn't have put it past the brackens to try & send their daughters to seduce aegon when he was younger like they tried with aegon iv targaryen but it didn't work just like last time (but unlike the feud between barba bracken & melissa blackwood, i'd like to think that bethania was. far more direct & aggressive towards her competition & wouldn't hesitate to beat a bracken bitch's ass lmfao). she would be the only queen in the targaryen dynasty (& the baratheon dynasty for that matter) who worshipped the old gods save for of course the de facto crown princess sansa stark. & honestly i think as queen, that would be disputed especially among the faith of the seven, specifically for her faith of the old gods (aka her INDIGENOUS RELIGION) & the faith very specifically sees the old gods as little more than demons (which is what. yknow. christianity said about indigenous religions in our world) & she would be the only indigenous queen of westeros. bethania's faith (& her being an indigenous woman who's also a warrior) would be another reason why people didn't want aegon to be king, considering many lords considered him half a peasant because he practically grew up among the smallfolk. so betha would've likely had to face sexism, antinative racism & faith discrimination. & i think her being a powerful indigenous woman & being a worshiper of the old gods & also her ties to bloodraven would've played a factor into the debates of the great council of 233 AC & even beyond possibly, westerosi politics was no stranger to criticizing unorthodox nobles, particularly women like larra rogare during the lysene spring, & maybe a reason why some lords may have wanted to get aemon on the throne was so that they could have a son of maekar who had no troublesome ties to the old gods rather than the half peasant son who's wife worshipped those strange & ancient gods & possibly practiced magic. i& genuinely think that betha's familial religion was used as an argument against aegon v's kingship & even after his reign bc how could aegon be trusted as a prospective defender of the faith when his own queen worshipped gods who were "little more than demons" & tried to turn aegon & betha's children from these same old gods from their "sinful" mother who "encouraged them away from the light of the seven" & assumed to share the same intrigue in magic & evil as associated with another blackwood old gods worshipper (& a bastard & maybe even her older half-brother at that) brynden "bloodraven" rivers. for people who were already distrustful of aegon bc he was basically brought up around the common people, the fact that the prince's wife & the mother of his heirs worshipped gods other than the seven might have been useful ammunition in their arguments against his ascension to the iron throne & during his long reign afterward.

overall, i think she was a talented political mind who's skills were ultimately strengthened by the eons long bracken-blackwood feud & possibly the teachings of melissa blackwood & brynden rivers & maybe even shiera seastar, who's own skills were honed during the court of king aegon iv targaryen the unworthy, may well have been the power behind her husband's throne if not his equal, smoothing things over when he infuriated the high lords, maybe she even served as his hand of the king when brynden rivers was exiled to the wall for his entire reign, i also think she's an extremely pragmatic & also deeply loving woman & was the one responsible for arranging her children's betrothals & while she was upset that they broke their betrothals, she never disowned them for it but despite all her diplomacy & tact, she had a fiery temper that was utterly terrifying in its power, & may have been a skilled seeress, huntress, archer & warrior, who knows, maybe she fought alongside aegon & her sons during one of the blackfyre rebellions. i genuinely believe she was a popular queen among both the smallfolk & the nobles which was a rare feat for a monarch but despite that respect, i'm sure there were rumors that always followed her around. i'd like to think she outlived her husband & most of her family & spent the rest of her life trying to protect the remainders of her family as dowager queen & dowager grandmother who still followed the old gods faithfully. i personally interpret that during their wedding, betha planted the last weirwood tree in the royal godswood of king's landing & ravens tended to flock to her whenever she went outside & she always seemed to know more than she logically could, even with the help of spies which she no doubt used, but she always claimed to others it was mere intuition.

she would've been 51 when brynden rivers disappeared during a ranging beyond the wall & would've been 58 years old during the tragedy of summerhall where her husband & so many of her family & friends died & when prince rhaegar targaryen was born. (which, btw, betha technically provides half of rhaegar, viserys & daenerys' genes bc the next two generations were inbred rippppp & that technically makes them half blackwood thus "half" native if you will lmfao). i also calculated how old she'd be in the present day & she'd literally be 99 years old. i'm& genuinely considering an au or maybe her main verse where betha actually Does live bc idk i think it'd be interesting to see betha interact with the current generations, particularly her grandchildren & great grandchildren & being forced into this intrigue.

[addamvelaryon]

do you think house velaryon had some sort of fall-out/ lose the favor of house Targaryen after the blackfyre rebellion? i mean Daemon Blackfyre had velaryon blood from Daenaera while the royal family wouldn't since they are from Viserys ii's line (now I'm speculating) and probably not having that close relationship with house velaryon as aegon iii's line did

After the death of the dragons, the Targaryens had to integrate more into Westerosi society in order to keep their family powerful. Marriage alliances are the best way to do that. So that obviously meant less Valyrian marriages with house Velaryon.

Now if there was a fallout between the 2 families, then yeah, the Blackfyre Rebellion would be the primary reason. I mentioned in this post that there's ample reason for house Velaryon to be Blackfyre loyalists, one of which is Daemon's blood ties to the family through Daenaera Velaryon.

The books make mention of several notable families who supported the Red Dragon and those who supported the Black Dragon. But there's nothing about which side house Velaryon supported. I think GRRM probably hadn't made up his mind on this at the time of writing TWOIAF/Dunk & Egg, otherwise why not mention it? While he could ultimately decide to depict house Velaryon as supporters of Daeron II, the author has still laid the groundwork for them to be Daemon supporters instead. So it wouldn't even come out of the blue if GRRM decided to go there in Fire & Blood v2.