#dunk and egg speculation

[nulnoildrinker]

On the question of who the descendants of Dunk are, the answers seem pretty clear cut.

Brienne is his spiritual successor. She is abnormally tall, a defender of the downtrodden, and a true knight, despite the role society tries to force upon her. Also Evenfall Hall had Dunk's shield lying around in a very "grandpa's old stuff"-type of way.

Hodor, a giant of a man, whose grandmother could have been in the perfect time and place to have been ✨️dunked✨️.

And last of all the Lannister siblings. Because Dunk was at his most Fabio-esque when around Tywin's grandmother, Rohanne Webber.

I'm not saying that Tywin necessarily descends from a bastard line of house Lannister, but what I am saying that Tywin shared Grandma Rohanne with his cousin/wife, Joanna. As such, the chances that our favorite trio of siblings descend from our favorite Lunk is twice as big.

But why, you might ask?

Because "The Giant of Lannister", the nickname given to Tyrion by Shae is an obvious clue left to us by GRRM himself. It is known.

Because banging his sister was deemed "sinful", Jaime would have to look for a more distant relative. In his defence, thie case of incest between him and Brienne would be less severe than the one between his parents.

Because much like Dunk, Cersei's head always was thick as a castle wall; but as the books have progressed, the rest of her has followed suit. 😳

[befooremoonrisee]

i think it would be very funny if one of the redheads actresses casted for dunk and egg was the ashford girl because people would go crazy over the ashford tourney sansa theory

[nobodysuspectsthebutterfly]

Have you ever done speculation on future Dunk & Egg titles? I've been wondering what the title of the final story that would presumably focus on Summerhall would be. I think GRRM once listed The Lord Commander as a title (though I might just be thinking of The Kingsguard), but I think he was LC when the Laughing Storm whose name is currently escaping me sort of rebelled and Dunk settled that? Idk, just curious on your thoughts on future D&E titles

I'm not sure I have any thoughts, sorry? Like, I know that the story with the working title The She-Wolves of Winterfell will have a different title, but I can't think of what the title will be. (The Northern Visitor, The (Really Tall) Household Guard?) As for Summerhall, The Lord Commander is possible, since Dunk was not yet LC during the trial by combat with Lyonel Baratheon (and that story is probably The Champion).

My thing is more about speculating what stories could happen in the working titles GRRM has listed. Like, I think The Village Hero must involve the story of how Pennytree became a royal fief, and thus would involve the Blackwood-Bracken Feud and probably the first time Egg meets Betha. I have the feeling that The Sellsword involves the Third Blackfyre Rebellion, Dunk and Egg either with the Golden Company themselves (as spies for Bloodraven?) or with another mercenary group (maybe the Company of the Rose or the Second Sons?) that encounters the GC right before they invade Westeros, D&E's efforts to end the war, and Aerion (himself a former? Second Son) being a douchebag as always. (Probably he's the one who dishonorably kills Haegon Blackfyre after he surrenders.)

The Champion would have Lyonel's rebellion (and Jenny and her Prince of Dragonflies), so The Kingsguard could include the tourney that has 10-year-old Barristan the Bold as a mystery knight, or the tourney when he was 16 and unhorsed both Duncans and was knighted. Unless The Kingsguard would be Lyonel's war, in which case The Champion could be a story involving the fall of Danelle Lothston, the shift in the course of the Trident (away from the Inn of the Crossroads), and perhaps the time Ser Lymond held the bridge against Ser Maynard. And of course, The Lord Commander would be the Tragedy at Summerhall, and how Dunk saved Rhaella and baby Rhaegar, but in the end died with his king.

But otherwise, I'm not good at devising future D&E titles myself. Hope this helps anyway!

[marwyn]

Definitely

(The World of Ice and Fire - Ancient History: The Doom of Valyria)

dany can do this in twow

[allyriadayne]

rereading the beginning of the hedge knight and i'm soooo interested in the differences in parenting between baelor and maekar.

we first meet maekar's sons daeron and egg. one too drunk and the other wanting to run away then we meet baelor's son valarr, a knight with good enough ability to ride in a tourney and this is what their parents have to say about them

baelor is understanding of his family. trying to make a compromise because he was /born/ of the compromise between the targaryen and martell. valarr obviously doesn't have baelor's ability with the lance (and the question of the competitors throwing the competition is another) but he's good enough and seems to enjoy at least the pageantry.

to maekar baelor's soft because he tells him he "should never have commanded [daeron] to enter the lists". maekar is not a person who like to be tell what to do, and what's more he believes his sons are extensions of himself. his sons are going to be perfect and defeat baelor's son if it kills them. it's not the first time daeron has disappeared, per baelor's words and we can guess why! maekar's expectations weight him down. the anvil never yields to anything!

baelor tells maekar "daeron is your blood and mine" in the excerpts at the beginning, seeking to make his brother understand his own son for what he is (and that he makes the comparison between daeron, aerys and rhaegel is so so interesting! maekar's own frustrations with his brothers later projected to daeron?).

later baelor once again express the same sentiment "they are blood of his blood" but with completely different meaning. /his/ blood, not /your and mine/. maekar's blood, his family, is different than the others, TO MAEKAR. they need to be better, faster, stronger, to stand out. he sees his family with the same fourth brotherism pov he feels. the inferiority syndrome to the max.

...and this inferiority is what makes him push daeron to enter the trial as well, considering he very well knows how inept his son is at this seeing he knows daeron's habits of whoring and drinking. maekar doesn't understand other people besides himself, he's half fooled by aerion's good boy facade and thinks daeron is fine and he only needs pushing.

in contrast, while baelor seems sad to dunk when he comes out to fight for him he comes with valarr's armor. this is mere speculation but i want to think baelor thought valarr would offer himself to fight for dunk's cause. baelor clearly supports it and he must think his son does as well. but from what we've seen about valarr, he's mediocre at best and has no great interest in great deeds, if he were he would train harder and probably be as good as baelor. but he is not! he accepts valarr won't change his mind just as he accepts maekar won't either. so baelor must wear valarr's tighter armor and be the good he wants to see in the world.

[calmerut]

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[that-dreaming-dragon]

Transience and Mutability of Identity

So I read two really powerful and beautiful posts today. One about the transience of identity. The other one about You Can Just Be.

Like I’d mentioned on day 14, my personal color is orange. Looking back my journal, I had talked about my orangeness as well as how I just, had this idea of myself.

I mentioned the earlier two posts together due to their relevance. At least in my eyes. As a shapeshifter, it is all about change. Identities aren’t always so set in stone. I like the words inherent and intrinsic, stuff from within. As we experience the world around us, time and space, we experience change both outward and inward. It can also mean that it is okay to not have all the pieces, or just make up stuff as you go.

It is your identity, do whatever you want with it forever.

I mentioned something to the other polymorph and shapeshifter of otherconnect discord, that I wondered if I may have been a polymorph, then the draconity took over, and nowadays I’m just a draconic shapeshifter.

My origin stories and theories are always messy, confusing, chicken-or-egg situation. Memories are also fickle thing, every time you try to recall it will twist it a little. What can we be sure of the stuff we remember is true or not? And does it really matter?

If you didn’t click in to any of the links, that’s okay. Let me tell you about my own experience a bit.

Before draconity, I started without a “true” form. I started like your typical alterhuman stories, obsessed about the creature I later learned are called dragons. I’m not sure of the exact timeline of things, but let’s say while in the process of understanding my own nonhumanity (before draconity), I was also in the process of finding my color.

It goes like this. I say red was my color. Then yellow. And then, when a orange coded side character finally shows up, I say “that, that’s my color.”

I think by the time I found the word dragon, orange was already cemented. And while I was discovering who I am as a dragon, I suspected the orange is a intentionally added on aspect, because of how much obsessed I am with the color orange. It’s hard to tell if my special interest is the orange color or dragons (or even birds or art), perhaps all of the above.

In the dreamwidth journal entry linked after my day 14 post, I talk about how I had a dragon that I tentatively dubbed “me” prior to the orange fuzzball dream dragon.

A bipedal dragon with spiraling curled horns, frilly fin for cheeks, belly platted, webbed wings, sharp spine on elbows and ankles. Sounds like a pretty typical western dragon no? But like Daski (@indornaga)’s writing, you can also see foreshadowing, breadcrumbs of my true self.

I really have no idea what happened, but a year was all it took, and the barely there on my mind dragon was cast out. My orange self slam-dunked into my mind, perhaps not quite out of nowhere.

The mutability, how casually I just changed everything. From scale to fur, webbed to feathered wings, spiky spines replaces by soft mane and round features. Somehow still bipedal, in a manner of speaking. My main mode of travel was either flight, or roll.

The previous dragon never got colored though. And I think that’s where the created element comes in. I just went and slap that orange on there. Oh and you can see the red and yellow remained. Why white wings? Probably just because it make sense. At this point my eyes are so cartoonish there’s no obvious color, but later on my eyes are rainbowy pearlescent with rosey pink tint, and black sclera.

I have a thing against mainstream meta concepts.

It is merely speculation, but I suspected that may be why I am the dragon I am. I just want to break tradition, separate from the average mindset, I don’t want to be anywhere near “typical western or eastern dragon”. But that’s mostly a theory that is tied into the potential of just how much of my true self is created. Like the whole involuntary vs voluntary discourse, it is ultimately a pointless thing to ponder. I am already who I am today.

You know the whole thing how some with otherlink identity will get to a point where you can no longer tell where the voluntariness is anymore? Maybe I was originally voluntarily a orange furred dragon, maybe I truly is just a orange furred dragon, involuntarity and all. It all seem so inconsequential in the grand scheme of things. The whole contemplation don’t add much value to my self discovery besides anxiety and distress.

You can just pick a color. And maybe along the way, you found other pieces to fit into your personal canon, or you end up finding new parts of yourself. Alterhuman experience is after all, a wonder.

[thephantomcasebook]

What is even the point of having Aegon sexually violate his mother??!!! Had a cringefest yesterday with my friend after reading that speculation. The sad part is none of this shi* is beyond Hess...and even Ryan, who openly implied in the GOT Con that Daemon was probably 'in love' with Viserys. They were ready to take inc£st to a whole new level. 😭

I think there is a great trap that is absolutely inherent in George RR Martin's writing, in general.

His stories are built on an incredibly subversive and nihilistic foundation that was meant to challenge fantasy tropes that J.R.R. Tolkien and Robert Howard created in the 1930s/1940s.

However, the problem with that is that GRRM has the discipline - most of the time (Read @duxbelisarius military analysis of "The Dance) - to know what the line is for his universe and how far one can take the nihilistic nature of the story and then pull it back. the Dunk & Egg stories are a masterclass in that type of 1960's Marvel Age morality tales in which doing the right thing is the hardest thing to do and you don't get rewarded for it, but the main characters do it anyway and it costs them dearly every time.

However, if you don't recognize that, than the ASoIaF Universe with all it's Nihilism and Brutality is just the type of world that is seductive to lazy and bad writers to dream up and bring into existence some of the most horrific and degenerate situations, because, they believe that is the world of "Game of Thrones". They believe that everything is awful and bad things happen to people all the time. So they can make or write something exploitive, because, they believe it is in the very DNA of Westeros.

That type of small minded thinking is also tempting for someone who has a personal mission to write in their political or social agenda to torture and languish female characters by turning every male character into a monstrous rapist, abuser, or generally unhinged in order to make some bullshit Sapphic social commentary about the treatment of women in the real world and how men hold all the power and patriarchy and all that bullshit.

The issue remains that they fundamentally don't understand the Jack Kirby and Stan Lee type of morals that GRRM is trying to set down. Yes, bad things happen. Yes, humanity is capable of true evil. And the right thing is hard and can be stupid, and you can be punished for doing it. But that doesn't mean that you don't do it. GRRM is constantly taking characters and evolving or degrading their morality, based on the Marvel Age principle of the 1960s Comics he grew up loving.

You give a writer a story in Westeros and they'll show you what kind of storyteller, good or bad, they are by the end of it.

[atopvisenyashill]

Do you think Rhae Targaryen might’ve married a Hightower? It seems like a sensible match and it might explain where Alerie and Lynesse got their looks from.

First of all, thank you for giving me a chance to speculate about mysterious timeline shenanigans, it’s my favorite pastime lmao. 

Second of all - it IS a theory I like, yes, and I also kind of like how it plays with the history of Targaryen women, but especially with a potential namesake for Rhae: Rhaena of Pentos and her own happy Hightower marriage, which is the other big theory about why the Hightowers look suspiciously Targaryen-ish. Gives me hope both ladies were happy in their marriages <3

Thirdly - okay i’m gonna over analyze here, let’s buckle in. 

Targaryen Princess marriages tend to fall into a few categories. There’s the most obvious brother-sister, first cousin, or uncle-niece marriages. For that category there is Visenya, Rhaenys, Alysanne, Jocelyn, Alyssa, Aemma, Daena, Naerys, Aelora, Daenora, Shaera, and Rhaella. 

For marriages outside the family, they tend to marry a family with Valyrian heritage  - Alyssa Velaryon’s second marriage, Rhaenys, Rhaenyra, Baela, Rhaelle, and probably Elaena’s marriage to Ronnel Penrose is in this category as well.

The last category is the fun one - when they marry someone without Valyrian heritage OR a vassal, they tend towards rich, powerful, and ancient families, who have been hanging around KL a lot. To break it down: 

Daella married Rodrik Arryn, a Lord Paramount who had been at court since Alysanne and Jaehaerys were young. 

Viserra is engaged to Theomore Manderly, NOT a Lord Paramount but a powerful, ancient, and well connected family & Theomore was friends with Aly & Jaehaerys when they were young. 

Rhaenyra has an affair with Harwin Strong, the heir to a powerful, ancient, and rich house, whose dad is on the Small Council so he’s in KL constantly & gets a job there instead of at home. 

Shaera is engaged to (though she does not marry) Luthor Tyrell, the heir to a Lord Paramount. 

Rhaena of Pentos is basically our One complete exception to a lot of these rules for Targaryen women marrying - she marries twice, both times to a house that is not the lord paramount for their region, and both times are likely to be kinda controversial. Firstly, because the Corbrays are old but broke, and secondly, because Garmund is a Hightower. We don’t know why she married Garmund, but what interests me is Corwyn, despite being of a lower status than Rhaena, is at KL constantly because his brother is on the council of regents, similar to Harwin, Rodrik, and Theomore (makes me wonder if she meets Garmund because the Hightowers try to get back into politics once Aegon III no longer has a regent).

All that to say - we know Daella (Egg’s Daella) and Rhae are both in this category and that’s FASCINATING to me. We have no real context for how they marry, or when, or for what reasons and there’s so many fun outcomes here. 

It’s easy to guess who Daella marries - the Evenstar, though she has Dunk’s baby - just based off of a few clues, but we have no idea if she marries for love (and then falls out of love), if she marries for politics, because she’s pregnant and needs a proper wedding now right now, etc., and I’m really excited to get to this, i NEED more dunk & egg because i NEED to watch Dunk and Daella fall in love so badly. 

And then, per your ask, we have Rhae!! 

Besides Rhaena, she’s the only married but unaccounted for Targaryen who could explain why Alerie and Lynesse potentially look Targaryen-ish. Rhaena is way far back, but we know that the silver and gold hair can crop up sometimes later on - Valarr Targaryen had a streak of silver despite having a brown haired mother, father, and grandmother. I actually think it would be fun if both of them married into the Hightowers, Rhaena through the female line and Rhae by marrying the heir, to explain the coloring, but Rhae by herself is still a good option. Too much math here but - Leyton was probably born between 230-250, which matches up with Selwyn Tarth, born in 245, and Selwyn’s grandmother being Daella, born in 199, therefore Rhae probably married Leyton’s grandfather, mayyyyyyybe his father, so Hightowers having Valyrian features as Rhae’s great-grandkids isn’t a huge stretch, esp with Andals being so fair haired in general. BUT, as I laid out above, the female lines tend to intermingle again later down the line, like with the Penroses, and with the Rhaenyra-Laenor match. if Rhae marries a House that already has Valyrian blood (like Elaena did), that also explains why the Hightowers are a lil Targaryen-ish, and even fits with the patterns of Targaryen marriages as well.

I think it’s likely that whoever they marry would be someone who is at Court often, perhaps serving on the Small Council or their parent serves on the Small Council, or has a friendship with Maekar or Aerys. And even makes sense, because lowkey the reigns of Aerys I - Aegon V are super messy and full of marriage drama, and what’s better than a Targaryen princess making eyes at a cute, silver haired Hightower lord while her daddy is dealing with a Peake uprising, I ask you. 

Anyways, yes, very excited for Rhae, I desperately want her to have married a Hightower with love on the mind because I think both Targ Lady-Hightower Lord marriages going well when the two Targ King-Hightower Queen marriages are notoriously shitty, would be really funny. Also, watch me smoosh Dragon Twins references into every other Targaryen sister relationship until George himself stops me!!

[goodqueenaly]

We see in the Dunk and Egg books what Egg's relationships with his older brothers was like, but what do you think his relationships with Daella and Rhae were like given what (very) little we know about them?

Virtually impossible to say, given the almost total lack of information we have on them, much less Egg's relationship with them. We know that in their childhood, Rhae tried to give Egg a love potion so that he would marry her instead of their sister Daella, but we get no sense from Egg on how this incident made him feel about either of his sisters (only Dunk's reflection on his, Egg's, casual approach to Targaryen incest and Egg's own youthful insistence on joining the Kingsguard). I think it's possible if not probable that Egg was educated alongside his sisters: we don’t see much in terms of Westerosi children's education in the books, but there is direct precedent both for mixed-gender classes, so to speak (when Shireen is taught alongside Edric Storm and Devan Seaworth on Dragonstone), as well as what I would consider indirect precedent (Sansa's ability to compare her reading and writing skills to those of her brothers, for example, suggests to me that all of them were taught these skills together, to give her a more immediate means of comparison). However, given both his official, and to some extent gender-dependent, roles (as a page for two years to the royal court in King's Landing and a would-be squire to his brother Daeron), it's also possible that Egg did not spend as much time with either or both of his sisters growing up. None of the above precludes Egg having a relationship with Rhae and/or Daella while young and/or in their adulthood, of course; these are simply points to consider.

It is worth pointing out the possibility (which I like to consider true) that Egg was from a young age betrothed to his sister Daella. If that was the case, then I might hope that in future Tales of Dunk and Egg our young co-protagonist will discuss his relationship with his sister and sometime fiancee. Indeed, given the strong possibility, I think, that a future entry in the Tales will describe the romance of Dunk and Daella, we could just as easily (and not mutually exclusively) hear from Daella about her relationship with Egg. (Where that leaves Rhae is unclear, although as I've noted so little can be speculated about Rhae's marital, much less personal, future.)

Again, however, this all remains to be seen. I certainly hope that GRRM will make Rhae and Daella interesting, full-fledged characters with unique and developed relationships with each other and their other family members (not to mention those outside their family), but I also can't pretend that I've not been disappointed in depictions of other Targaryen princesses (*cough* Fire and Blood *cough*)

[nulnoildrinker]

Sure, some of Old Nan's stories might be kernels of ancient folk wisdom inherited through millennia of oral traditions. But have you concidered how fun it is to lie to children?

She likely did the Lucamore Strong Limbo with Dunk, and we all know that he likes women with that extra little spark in their eyes.

[daenystheedreamer]

How do you think they’ll format the new dunk and egg series? I’m feeling like an 8 episode season per short story.

Also I’d love to see them adapt the wolves of Winterfell short story that’s been speculated

I'm hoping it's episodic, but I suspect it won't be :( hopefully they won't centre the targs but i think we all know its gonna be otherwise

[thebibliomancer]

Essential Avengers: Avengers #300: Inferno Squared

February, 1989

Presenting        the NEW TEAM!

Mister Fantastic

The Mighty THOR

Invisible Woman

Steve Rogers, the CAPTAIN

and reintroducing

Gilgamesh, the FORGOTTEN ONE!

-reverent whisper- The Worst Roster!

Its finally arrived...

I’m going to keep an open mind because at least its not Dr Druid, who I will never stop dunking on. But Gilgamesh is dragging this team down. Look at him in the cast box. He’s just a grim brunette with a boxy head.

Thor is going to be on the same team. You’re going to put Gilgamesh in Thor’s shadow right from day 2? You’re not giving him much of a chance, Simonson.

Also, the title is technically INFERNO^2 but I don’t know how to do the superscript thing and I don’t think it works in the title bar.

Last times on Avengers!

Thor disbanded the Avengers. There are no Avengers.

Because of X-Men demon related biz, the Captain Notmerica decided to go get Invisible Woman and Mr Fantastic in the middle of the night. But they’re already involved in another subplot with a creepy egg kidnapping Franklin.

The heroes chase Nanny down but find her enforcer Orphan-Maker and Franklin-in-a-robot-suit tough fights. Also, Gilgamesh showed up to specifically this subplot even though he was going to New York to fight demons.

AND THE KANG SUBPLOT IS STILL HAPPENING?

GOD DAMN IT

This is Fred Kang, the Kang that was sorta the focus Kang of the Kang Klubhouse subplot of the Nebula Kang arc.

He nicknamed himself after Fred Flintstone.

While every other Kang was getting seduced by Nebula Kang into giving away their best technology, Fred Kang kept his dick in his pants and helped Beard Kang and Dinosaur Kang go after Nebula Kang to stop her from stealing the weapon in the bubble in the center of time that the Kangs really wanted.

But after freeing the Avengers from Nebula Kang mind control, the Kangs fell into time and disappeared.

Fred Kang finds that he’s still trapped on the surface of the time bubble in time. That’s why its all pink around him. Time bubbles are pink.

And that’s why I’m peeved at seeing Kang. Aside from the subplot doing nothing and being bad, explaining it takes a whole lot of words considering how nothing of a story it was.

Fred Kang says a lot of technobabble about why he’s still alive and how he’ll be dead once random probabilities run out.

But he gets distracted by seeing a vision of the demonic invasion of New York. And wonders where the fuck the Avengers are.

Hey, you and me both, buddy.

He speculates that the demons killed the Avengers and are destroying alternate futures. But that can’t be because the Avengers are going to enter the time bubble, the bubble in time in the future. So therefore, he needs to enter their probability envelope to escape non-existence.

Just so much technobabble. I hate you, Fred Kang.

Long story short, he’s going to try to help the Avengers to ensure his own existence.

There is just so much Kang in this ISSUE THREE HUNDRED OF AVENGERS, WHICH IS PRIMARILY CONCERNED WITH AN X-MEN CROSSOVER EVENT.

My positivity is leaving my body.

Kang spies on N’astirh and some of his demon guys discussing all the child sacrifice Madelyne Pryor is getting read to do. Kang don’t like that none.

Not because of the child sacrifice but it does mean that the timeline is going a direction that’s bad for him, personally.

He finds what he thinks are some Avengers (being the Captain, Mr Fantastic, and Invisible Woman) and flies off to their position.

In a bit I kinda love, Mr Fantastic backseat drives Sue by telling her to use her force field to protect herself from being set on fire.

And her reaction is ‘yeah, no shit.’

Gilgamesh is not so worried about how to stop Franklin without harming him. He just walked up and punches Red Franklin in the back.

Luckily (for Franklin’s spine) the suit is pretty mighty and holds up well. Presumably, Gilgamesh is a lot more rusty than he thought.

Meanwhile, the Captain clobbers Orphan-Maker to pay back the cheap shot. He knocks him on his ass and the creep starts crying to Nanny.

Mr Fantastic realizes, oh right, the egg.

He wraps around Orphan-Maker and threatens to murder him if Nanny doesn’t free Franklin.

Mr Fantastic: “I don’t want to hurt your boy, but where my child is at risk, I’ll be just as bad as I have to be. Don’t make me do something we’ll both regret.”

Lamentably, Inferno keeps happening.

Back over with N’astirh, one of his horrible demons brings Red Franklin to N’astirh’s attention and goes ‘hey its an important baby, a dark childe.’

Having this dark childe would help them more efficiently fuck over Madelyne Pryor after she plays her part in this mess.

Back at the quasi-Avengers part of the plot, Nanny agrees to leave without Franklin. But as she’s getting into her airship, she nursery rhyme orders Franklin to murder everyone.

Mr Fantastic was expecting this. Because an easy way to have him be the smartest person in the room is to let him read ahead in the script.

But now that Nanny and Orphan-Maker are out of the picture, Reed has a plan to free Franklin. Or kill him.

Reed... Reed just does this stuff sometimes.

Invisible Woman: “But -- you may hurt him! Even kill him!”

Mr Fantastic: “We must take that chance, darling. As long as he’s under Nanny’s mental control, the entire world is in deadly peril!”

Is it though?

It’s a mighty robot suit but he’s barely a deadly peril to the entire park.

Like I said, Reed just does this stuff sometimes. He’s always willing to make the hard choice, especially if it puts Franklin in a coma.

This time, he yanks some wires out of the Fantasti-Car to zap Red Franklin and fuse his armor.

Red Franklin face plants, armor busted as planned. Franklin maybe dead.

Nanny chooses this moment to try to expeditiously retreat but Scary Susan rears her head.

If you’re not familiar, Scary Susan is the tendency of Sue’s modern personality to be “will fuck you up if you give her half a reason. Do it, jerk. Make her day.”

Some times it seems like she thinks of the most fucked up application of her power and just WAITS for a chance to use it. She needs an excuse. She’d be a monster if she did it for no reason.

Oh, the Spot trying to steal some of Reed’s technology. BAM FORCE BUBBLE IN HIS SINUS.

Yeah, Scary Susan.

Don’t cross her.

Nanny tries to escape, Sue catches the ship and holds it in place, and then the ship blows up from the strain. She contains all the wreckage and then dumps it into the nearby lake.

While Sue was maybe killing an egg and a child (they’re fiiiine), Reed was confirming that he didn’t actually accidentally(?) kill his son.

He can’t actually get the armor off here, though. Franklin was sealed into the armor and the armor is powered by Franklin.

Mr Fantastic: “Looks like Nanny didn’t expect to let him out again. And there’s technology here I’m unfamiliar with. A pity it died with its builder.”

Is it??

Like, science is neutral or whatever. But are you bemoaning the loss of child-powered robot suits?

Gilgamesh remembers he’s in this book so points out that the wreckage that fell into the lake wasn’t enough to be Nanny’s full ship. He guesses that the wreckage was a decoy that Nanny ejected so she could escape.

The Captain also remembers Gilgamesh is in the book now and asks hey who dis.

Gilgamesh reminds the Captain that they’ve fought together, during Eternals vol 2. But, hey, both of them were dressed differently and Gilgamesh didn’t have a name at the time.

For some reason, saying he didn’t have a name at the time doesn’t job the Captain’s memory. So Gilgamesh goes off on a whole speech.

The Captain: “Have you a name now?”

Gilgamesh: “I have had many. I woke when the world was new and slew dragons. Enkidu was my brother; Achilles my friend. I helped Aeneas set his standard upon the Palatine Hill... and strove beside David in the mountains of Judah.”

The Captain: “You’re the Nameless Eternal, the Forgotten One!”

Gilgamesh: “Indeed. It’s nice to be remembered.”

His response comes off as so wry.

Reed apparently listened as far as the first name drop and just decides this dude is Gilgamesh.

And that’s how Gilgamesh gets the name Gilgamesh. He was nameless up until this point, I just called him Gilgamesh for convenience.

Gilgamesh agrees that he was called Gilgamesh once so might as well go by that name now.

Now that Franklin is definitely saved forever, the Captain tells Gilgamesh that New York is swarming with demons and dammit he needs to put together a team, a team of Avengers! And Gilgamesh, monster hunter, would be great for that!

Now that Franklin is definitely saved forever, Mr Fantastic tells the Captain that as for himself and Sue, they’ve retired to devote more time to Franklin.

And while Reed is saying that, N’astirh kidnaps Franklin behind his back.

Just picks up the big red suit of power armor that Franklin is still stuck in and pulls him through a portal.

Plot is playing monkey in the middle with Franklin as the ball.

Reed tries to track the portal N’astirh used but since its demonic magical portal and not a SCIENCE portal, Reed’s at a loss.

The fantastic foursome of Mr Fantastic, Invisible Woman, the Captain, and Gilgamesh pile into the Fantasti-Car and fly around New York. Hoping that they’ll be able to detect Franklin’s unique energy signature.

Half-faded from existence Fred Kang though knows that Reed won’t be able to find Franklin with all the static being generated by Inferno. But his existence depends on them finding Franklin and reforming the Avengers! And Fred Kang is pretty sure he knows where N’astirh is hiding out.

So with his last seconds of existence, he activates an abandoned Growing Man.

Maybe this confirms that “Fred” Kang is actually the same main Kang that the Avengers tend to deal with over and over again. Since the Growing Man is presumably where the Avengers left it during issue #268: the Kang Dynasty.

With Kang, I find it best to just not sweat the specifics.

As the tiny Growing Man walks down the street, a demon actually spots him and decides to mess with him. And while the Growing Man starts off teeny-tiny and the demon is able to fling him around, he grows bigger and winds up hanging the demon over a lamppost like a wet towel.

With that done, the Growing Man follows the order that Kang apparently gave him to not be recognized by the Avengers. Uh, the whatever you call Cap’s group.

To accomplish not looking like a Growing Man when Growing Man he be, the Growing Man wades into some Inferno goo that’s just dripping off the Empire State Building.

It has mutagenic properties but eh Growing Man is a robot.

Now looking like a gross slime monster, the Growing Man walks off to find some Notvengers.

Over at wherever N’astirh set up shop, he plops armored Franklin in front of his demons and tells them to get to it.

For whatever reason, limbo demons are better at cutting Franklin free than Reed was. They didn’t even need specialized equipment.

Free of the armor, N’astirh jams him in some goo that will keep him asleep and siphon his power.

Geez. Franklin just keeps being used as a battery.

With Franklin’s power, N’astirh will be able to power up the portal bringing demons from Limbo. He’ll be able to move his entire army in an instant!

Ruh roh!

And rather than stick around and make sure this goes off without a hitch, N’astirh fucks off to another Inferno tie-in to sort out some business with S’ym.

Who is a Cerebus the Aardvark reference.

Anyway, the fantastic foursome of Cap and friends still haven’t been able to find Franklin’s energy.

Reed says he’ll search building by building if he has to but then there’s a big SKREEE-A-THOOM of thunder and the Captain asks Reed to detour.

It’s a friend from work.

(It’s Thor, doing what Thor does best. Beating up a pile of things and shit talking.)

Hey, remember how Thor disbanded the Avengers and took off with Black Knight to do Asgard stuff?

Black Knight is still with him!

He’s in a coma though.

I expect it’s serious.

Its kind of funny to me that Black Knight’s curse is so afflicting him that he’s become a prop.

No fooling.

Thor even tosses him into a vortex to keep him out of the way/safe while he joins Cap et al.

You could replace Black Knight with a bag full of fine porcelain.

Anyway, when they see that Thor is fighting demons, Gilgamesh gladly jumps in and starts punching. Thor doesn’t recognize Gilgamesh in his new armor or under his new name but is glad for the help.

(Side note: Thor and the Avengers apparently line up really well. He just returned to Earth in Thor #400 which came out the same month as Avengers #300.)

The Notvengers explain the situation to Thor off-panel and he agrees to join the team to help find Franklin.

And this is when he tosses Black Knight’s comatose body into a vortex for later.

Even with Thor, the Notvengers still have no idea where to look for Franklin and are thinking of splitting up to cover more ground. Mr Fantastic and Invisible Woman will keep looking for Franklin while Captain, Thor, and Gilgamesh will keep fighting demons.

The Growing Man doesn’t want them to split up for some reason. Sure, Kang needs A Team of Avengers or else the future is demons forever apparently. But also, I guess he wants it to be A Team of Avengers that also has one-half of the Fantastic Four in it.

So demon goo disguised Growing Man throws a car at them.

Demon goo disguised Growing Man taunts that they’ll all die and then Franklin will belong to demons forever and then runs off, baiting them to follow.

Invisible Woman thinks this is clearly bait for a trap but eh it might lead them to Franklin and they don’t have better ideas.

So they chase.

Goo’d Growing Man tries not to make it too obvious. He knocks down some buildings as he passes, forcing the Avengers to dodge debris or catch it.

The Notvengers get in the Fantasti-Car so they can follow without being at falling building level.

The goo man leads them to the World Trade Center which is where the demons made their base. Also, its just covered in goo and gross. He starts climbing.

The Notvengers fly or stretch up to the top of the building. And Reed’s Franklin-Detector detects a Franklin so they’re sure that the “demon” led them to the real Franklin.

The Growing Man goops into the building. Thor wants to smash into the building with Mjolnir but a bunch of actual demons have shown up, wondering who the fuck is intruding on their cool base.

They attack the Notvengers while loudly announcing everything like who they’re working for and that they’re guarding a kidnapped child.

I mean. Limbo demons aren’t the brightest. They’re dumb enough to follow Belasco, S’ym, N’astirh, Madylne. They’re just a real pack of idiots.

Anyway, action scene. The Notvengers beat up the demons.

A demon: “Look! It’s them was on the view screen! The Dark Childe’s parents! They should be dead! Kill them!”

KA-POW

Mr Fantastic: “Mister, you just said the magic words! There aren’t enough of you in all the world to keep me from my son now! And in the words of my best friend, ‘it’s clobberin’ time!!!’”

I’m always a little confused how Limbo managed to kill or corrupt the X-Men when they came to rescue Illyana in the original timeline of the Magik miniseries. The same Limbo demons when invading New York just get foddered by any superhero that fights them.

There’s an X spinoff book of a bunch of mutant kids beating up demons during Inferno.

That’s besides the point though.

The point is that the Notvengers are kicking demonic ass and making it look easy.

Gilgamesh comments that Avengers Assemble isn't a great battle cry (shut your dumb, eternal mouth) but concedes that the way the Captain says it makes it sound cool.

Because, remember, everything after Stern was fired was meant to lead up to Steve Rogers taking his place as the one, true leader of the Avengers.

Methinks Gilgamesh's comment be shilling.

Invisible Sue ignores everyone else fighting demons and just wanders into the demon nest to find Franklin stuck in demon goo with a star drawing his super Franklin energy out of his eyes.

Sue figures this is Probably Bad. She thinks its maybe connected to the big pentagram teleporting demons into the city. Either way, this nonsense gotta stop.

So she puts an invisible force field around Franklin to prevent the star from absorbing his energy. But the star is still drawing his energy, it just can't escape the bubble. So it builds up and builds up and then explodes.

Luckily, Franklin is immune to Franklin so is unscatched by a massive explosion. And it even frees him from the demon goo.

I don't know if Sue thought that through so its lucky that Franklin was immune to Franklin.

Anyway, when Franklin was freed of the demon suck, the pentagram above the city also blew up.

So this is probably what Fred Kang meant when he ranted that there'd be a forever demon future if there were no Avengers. Except other tie-ins, X books, gave other explanations for why the pentagram blew up. So probably the Notvengers accomplished nothing but saving a child. Which is pretty cool but other groups saved more children during this same event.

The demons present do freak out that the pentagram has been destroyed. N'astirh is gonna be peeved! Unless maybe they beat up the intruders??

Except these same intruders have been kicking their asses and continue kicking their asses.

I mean, we've got a god, someone who has been mistaken for several different gods, coolest man on Earth Steve Rogers, and also Mr Fantastic who is slingshotting the demons at Thor and Gilgamesh to beat up.

After everyone but Sue finishes beating up literally everyone, the demons emit pink smoke and then disintegrate.

Thor and the Captain tell Gilgamesh that he's pretty cool and asks him to stick around.

Gilgamesh: "Will there be more monsters?"

The Captain: "Mister, fighting monsters is what the Avengers does best!"

I dunno about best but they do fight a fair number of monsters.

Mr Fantastic asks Invisible Woman how Franlin is. She says he's asleep but seems fine. But insists that they get him home and having a doctor look over him is probably a good idea too.

I guess it looked like Mr Fantastic and Invisible Woman wouldn't be joining this new Avengers group the Captain is trying to put together because the Demon Goo Encrusted Growing Man pops up again to give them a common threat.

He shakes the World Trade Center tower, threatening to knock the whole thing down.

... Ah, things that are slightly awkward in hindsight.

And I just learned that one of Marvel's favorite ways to imply an alternate history is to show the World Trade Center still around.

I no longer think that demons infesting the building and a future robot trying to shake it down are that awkward in comparison.

Thor throws Mjolnir at what he thinks is another demon. But when getting bonked in the head by a speeding uru mallet makes the monster grow instead of fall down, Thor realizes that this gross goo dripping guy isn't a demon. It's Growing Man!

The Captain seems annoyed that Kang is somehow involved in this. Because, y'know, we're already dealing with a demonic invasion! Geez!

Mr Fantastic says that figuring out Kang's involvement is a problem for later. The problem for now is that this new proto-Avengers team is very heavy on the punching which is bad for facing a foe that absorbs kinetic energy.

So Mr Fantastic streeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeetches all the way back to the Fantasti-Car.

He makes some adjustments to the front thrusters and FTZAPT!s the Growing Man and then BEEYOOOW!s him.

Even though Mr Fantastic asked the other heroes to not punch Growing Man until he figured out a way to deal with him, Thor and Gilgamesh get bored and jump off the World Trade Center to start punching a Growing Man.

Luckily, Mr Fantastic’s efforts have been successful.

Instead of getting bigger, Thor and Gilgamesh’s blows make the Growing Man into a Shrinking Man.

He did something something science science and maybe reversed the polarity of the neutron flow so now he works backwards.

Thor hits with all his might and the Shrinking Man shrinks down to the point he can’t be seen anymore.

Mission accomplished, I guess.

Franklin wakes up and says he dreamed of “lotsa monsters!”

Reed tells him it was all a long nightmare. So I hope that Franklin doesn’t look around at the state of the city right now.

Thor and Gilgamesh and the Captain’s short term memory must be short because they repeat some conversations from elsewhere in this issue.

Thor again wonders at such a strong warrior as Gilgamesh exists without Thor knowing about him. Despite Cap earlier telling Thor that he’s met Gilgamesh before.

Gilgamesh has completely forgotten ever meeting Thor.

And they’ve all forgotten when the Captain tried to recruit Gilgamesh for his new Avengers team.

Cap again asks if Gilgamesh will join. Gilgamesh again asks if there will be monsters to beat up. And Cap again says yes.

Gilgamesh: “It has been long since I was abroad in the world. I would like to see what mankind has made of itself. And I have little else to do right now.”

Pfft. ‘Sure, I’ve got nothing better to do.’

Mr Fantastic reports from the Fantasti-Car that the radio reports that Inferno has mostly petered out by now. There’s still some demon stuff going on but, eh, other people are handling that. Want to go to the Richards’ house for milk and cookies?

As the group flies over New York back to Connecticut, they have a conversation about how the Fantasti-Car has been nicknamed Pegasus because Reed and Sue have been reading Franklin Greek mythology lately.

Gilgamesh (who seemingly was overlooked by the colorist in this panel) comments that he remembers Pegasus. And then implies that he himself was Bellerophon who rode the Pegasus and slew the Chimera.

God, leave some famous people to actually be themselves! This is why nobody likes the Eternals, on a personal level!

The Captain comments that he can’t tell whether Gilgamesh is bullshitting him or not but intends to get to know him so he can figure it out.

Later, after returning to the Richards’ Connecticut home and putting Franklin to bed, the Captain gives the hard sell.

The Captain: “Reed, Sue, we haven’t really had a chance to talk much... but after tonight, I’m more convinced than ever that the Avengers are not only useful... but essential. They’re needed. That’s why I was coming to see you originally. You’ve got the team experience... and the leadership qualities. Will you join us?”

Reed says he thought that he and Sue had to step back from the superhero biz to spend more time with Franklin.

Now, the way its phrased here, he makes it more about protecting Franklin rather than just being a more present father. Which is a change from how it was presented in Fantastic Four.

But either way, the events of Inferno made Reed and Sue realize that you can’t just retire from superheroics and rely on being left alone. Two separate groups came after Franklin.

Supposedly very quietly (but I spot exclamation points) this new team of Avengers piles their hands over Franklin’s bed and announce that the Avengers are reborn!

The Worst Roster lives!

So let me comment first on this as a milestone issue.

The Avengers don’t have good milestone issues it seems.

Issue #100 tried to be a good milestone with an Every Avenger Ever story but the writing wasn’t prepared to handle that many characters so some of them just dropped out of the plot for a while. And the villain was Ares and the only reason he was a threat that required Every Avenger Ever was that he’d randomly found Black Knight’s extremely cursed sword.

Still, They Tried.

More than I can say about issue #150.

That one built up a shake-up of the team roster. But was basically a clip show and hit deadline problems or something and reprinted half of issue #16.

Issue #200. Well, it was issue #200. It didn’t celebrate team history as a 200th issue. Didn’t try to incorporate Every Avenger Ever. And it had Carol Danvers get magically pregnant and elope with her new baby boyfriend. It was baaaad.

Issue #250 was a double-size issue which had the first East and West Coast Avengers team-up. The villain, Maelstrom, wasn’t anything special. But he presented stakes that required both teams. I call this a good but not great milestone.

And now issue #300.

Well. It boasts a revolutionary new Avengers roster, featuring two mainstays and three new members. It doesn’t really celebrate Avengers history. Kang is around but is only tangentially connected to stuff. And the Avengers milestone is just another Inferno tie-in. It’s a decent tie-in, if we must tie-in. I can’t say that the story is as insulting and stupid as the undermining of Monica Rambeau or the Dr Druid ruins everything issues. But this is nothing special for an Avengers milestone, especially since this revolutionary new roster will not stand the test of time.

So let’s get into the Worst Roster.

This is the end of Simonson’s run. Around long enough to finish demolishing the team and setting up a new roster that will itself be demolished not long after this.

It’s kind of odd to set up a new team and then leave the book. But apparently it was because of that new team that he left the book.

APPARENTLY, Simonson had gotten permission to put Mr Fantastic and Invisible Woman on his new Avengers team. They were free agents at the time with the Thing leading the Fantastic Four. And Simonson likes the characters.

He got permission but it was revoked. Sales dropped on Fantastic Four so the higher ups ordered for Reed and Sue to go back to the Fantastic Four.

This pissed off Simonson, who just went to all the effort setting up this new team only to have two-fifths of it yanked away. So he quit. /APPARENTLY

So, we’ll never know how things would have played out if Simonson got to keep the team he wanted to write and stayed on the book.

I’ll comment how the Worst Roster worked under the writers that actually wrote it when I get there. 

For now, I’ll share some thoughts about the new team as a concept.

I don’t hate Mr Fantastic and Invisible Woman joining the Avengers.

I’m a fan of mixing things up. Putting characters in new contexts. Beast on the Avengers was great. What is Beast away from X-stuff? A real fun guy! His BFF relationship with Wonder Man was unexpected but they were a great duo.

The second roster of Avengers was all about this. What are Hawkeye, Scarlet Witch, and Quicksilver away from their supervillain bad influences? They’re heroes is what!

I actually think Cyclops should join the Avengers! He deserves a little time away from X-stuff too.

And the Avengers and Fantastic Four have pretty close ties around this time. They’ve both housed the other team when they were having headquarter problems. Jarvis babysat Franklin for a while. There’s links there. And with Ben running the Fantastic Four, why not put Reed and Sue in a different context.

I’ve heard criticisms that say a leader type like Reed would rankle under the command of someone else.

But there’s two different ways that could go. Cap cited Reed’s leadership qualities. He may have wanted Reed to lead this new team. Only for Reed to turn this down because if he wanted to lead a team, he’d go back to the Fantastic Four. Uh, like he does do.

Alternatively, gosh, friction over who should lead the team happens so much in Avengers. It’s one of their recurring character beats. During Cap’s quirky quartet, both Hawkeye and Quicksilver argued that they should be in charge instead.

During Shooter’s run, there was friction between Captain America and Thor over how Thor was leading.

Hercules being a sexist dick about Wasp being in charge during Avengers Under Siege.

Hell, even recently you had Dr Druid standing slightly behind Monica muttering how if he ran the zoo.

Friction over who should be in charge is an Avengers tradition! Unlike X-Men or Fantastic Four, there’s not an assumption over who should be in charge. There was a revolving leadership during the first roster and votes for chairman during later rosters!

A power struggle between Steve and Reed! And look how the roster is set up! Thor would back Steve. Sue would back Reed. Would Gilgamesh be a tie-breaker? He’s leaning Steve, currently!

As I said. We can’t know how it’d play out. But Reed preferring to be in charge is a feature, not a bug.

The team doesn’t have to be a perfect, happy family right off the bat. It just needs to have interesting character dynamics.

I’ve mostly talked about Reed here. I have no problem with Invisible Woman being on the team either. She has interesting powers, is legitimately strong enough that she’s not automatically overshadowed by having Thor and Gilgamesh standing nearby, she sometimes has a personality. If this roster lasted, I’d be excited to see how she interacts with the non-Reeds. New contexts!

I’m mostly annoyed that its only Sue. Are we still doing the thing where we’re only allowed one woman per team?

We know Cap and Thor. They’re both very Avengers. No complaints. So what about Gilgamesh.

Gilgamesh. Is the weak link in the Worst Roster. I’ll defend the idea to have half the Fantastic Four on the team. But Gilgamesh is a boring option. Not bad, just boring.

That might be why Simonson wanted to put him on the team. He’s been used so infrequently that he’s a bit of a blank slate. And Simonson has written him before.

Gilgamesh claiming that any given myth or legend was actually him could be fun, mostly if he’s just lying about some of it.

But having another strong godly dude next to Thor isn’t the most inspired choice.

I think there’s a reason why Sersi becomes the go-to Eternal for Avengers stuff. She’s fun and has interesting powers. From what I hear, when she is an Avenger she’s used in the most boring way possible (love triangles) but still.

So to teal deer. If this Worst Roster wasn’t infamous for getting almost immediately abandoned. I would be excited to see how it plays out.

That’s the real reason why its the Worst Roster. Not who was part of it. Because Marvel didn’t even have the guts to stand by it.

And also because Reed and Sue quit so quickly we never even got to find out if they’d keep wearing their FF jumpsuits with the 4 on them. Would they have taken a sharpie and extended the 4 to an A? Would they have gotten individualized costumes just for this?

We’ll never know!

Curse you, Marvel! Curse you!

Follow @essential-avengers​ because I’m willing to give dumb ideas a chance. This is often a character flaw. Reward me for it with likes, reblogs, and comments.

[azureflight]

So, GRRM posted this a few days ago

While the praise heaped upon Shogun is absolutely correct and 100% deserved, that's not the part that's stuck with. (But seriously, go watch Shogun, and then go read the entire Asian Saga, go!) Rather, it is this part:

This is important, because "oh, show is the show and the books are the books" has been his go to defense against any fandom outrage about any changes.

Now he is suddenly completely making a 180 turn?! "How many children does Scarlett O'Hara have?" was his go to quote to demonstrate separate canons for books and adaptations existing and being equally legitimate.

What happened George? What happened? You were super happy about Dunk & Egg just 3 days before this post, so that's not it.

The script for the Conqueror's story is not even close to being finished, so that's not it.

What happened and where?

I don't know what we're gonna get in the second season of House of the Dragon, but as far as speculations go, this is the first thing that actually made me go "oh shit." What have they done George? Is Nettles truly cut? Or is there more?

[imaginarianisms]

b.etha b.lackwood actually has potential to be a Very intriguing character when you rly sit down & think about it. like. this is all based on speculation & i have no idea what fire & blood is gonna do surrounding the later targaryen kings & their queens & i haven't personally read the dunk & egg novellas so i could definitely be wrong about a few things but this is a meta on b.ethania b.lackwood.

b.ethania blackwood was born in 201 AC & would've been 5 years old when her father (or possibly even her grandfather as her father wasn't named, only known as lord blackwood) lord q.uentyn blackwood of raventree hall died in a tourney & killed by ser otho bracken who'd later become known as the brute of bracken at a tourney in king's landing during the reign of d.aeron ii the good targaryen which reignited the eons long feud between the blackwoods & the brackens (three years before the tourney of ashford where baelor 'breakspear' was accidentally killed by maekar targaryen, aegon v's father, which is where dunk & egg takes place), & thus i'd imagine that would cause b.etha to hate the brackens because of her (grand?)father's untimely death. to add salt to injury, she would've seen him die in front of her eyes because although he used a blunted longaxe, he struck him so hard that he stove in his helm's visor & his face beneath & that could've traumatized b.etha severely. maybe her older brother (or father, depending on if you think q.uentyn blackwood was her grandfather), the so far unnamed lord blackwood, inherited after quentyn's death. she would've been 8 years old when d.aeron ii 'the good' targaryen died during the great spring sickness. so, b.etha would've been raised in a time where women were more valued in comparison to the previous eras with the help of m.yriah m.artell, daeron ii targaryen's queen. house blackwood never lacked for powerful women in their house, however, but i think she would've looked up to queen m.yriah m.artell as a child. let's go with the scenario that betha is quentyn blackwood's granddaughter, she has every reason to hate the brackens & that's not even getting into petty blackwood-bracken feuds, this is a legitimate grievance in her family & i think that would've forced her to grow fast.

she's known to be willful & spirited, similar to her ancestors agnes blackwood & alysanne blackwood & later in life lyanna stark & arya stark. she would've grown up likely around someone of the likes of brynden rivers / bloodraven & shiera seastar & if she's anything like her female blackwood relatives, she's fierce, strong-willed, loves animals & an excellent archer, hunter & warrior & hella bisexual, but it's also plausible that she has the power of greensight & was a seeress, maybe even a skinchanger. maybe she even learned sorcery from both brynden & shiera later on in life but considering that the blackwoods are known for their magic & mysticism, that wouldn't be surprising at all. maybe she's brynden rivers' half sister through melissa blackwood or smth bc she was definitely related to melissa blackwood & she very well could've learned political intrigue from them. so, bethania could probably be an intriguing mix of agnes blackwood, alysanne blackwood, lyanna stark, sansa stark, arya stark & val/ygritte were all merged together into one badass powerhouse of a woman which i think aegon would've respected. house blackwood was originally from the north but for whatever reason they were exiled thousands of years ago & now that they're in the predominantly andal (read: european white folx) dominated riverlands, they've had to adapt as a minority unlike the indigenous majority north, & while they're the only indigenous house in the riverlands (& one of the few houses in general) that still follow the old gods, they participate in jousts & tourneys like the other andal southron houses do & they're powerful & wealthy enough to get away with it. it's possible that bloodraven may have inadvertently set up aegon v to meet betha bc he's kind of a giant troll, or maybe she saw him coming in her dreams. i'd& like to think that she & aegon bonded over the mystical & their adventures & aegon's mother was dyanna dayne so he would've been aware & raised in a time where women were respected & aegon himself is half if not more than half dornish. so considering he's half a dayne, he likely would've been raised in tales of brave chivalry & i think that aegon & betha would've bonded over that, too.

betha & aegon married for love which was exceptionally rare. i'd like to think that her fierce nature endeared aegon & the fact that he was a targaryen prince but was friendly to & practically grew up & lived among the common people would greatly intrigue betha, but also at the same time bc they're both stubborn, it definitely caused some friction from time to time, especially when he became king & he was often in wars as he was often described as forced to spend most of his reign in armor quelling one rising or another most notably the fourth blackfyre rebellion so he wasn't at home very often & it's entirely possible they became estranged but still loved each other. they married at summerhall when she was 19 & he was 20. i'd imagine they're both probably shorter than average bc we love to see short couples slay together. they probably could've met as kids before reuniting as teenagers. she & egg running around dunk is a very adorable image. it's also very possible that betha would've known rohanne webber & would've been friends with egg's sisters. aegon was pro-common folk & supported many reforms to give numerous rights & protections for the smallfolk that was unheard of at the time & limiting the rights of the high lords & i'd like to think that bethania definitely supported these reforms that angered a lot of the high lords which frustrated aegon because he couldn't do anything like that when everyone, even his own children, rebelled against him, when literally all he wanted was peace, prosperity & justice for all & i think betha supported him through all of it.

i'd like to think that she was slightly mean but in a good way & was never afraid to speak her mind & let others know when something they said or did was wrong, a kindhearted & pragmatic but also stern, tough-love type of person when necessary & i also think that she was likely a big political player & had a big say behind the scenes. she sometimes had to tell aegon to put his foot down, not that he didn't already have that confidence but sometimes you need a little push to get your point across. i'd& also like to think that betha saw duncan the tall as some kinda big brother figure & liked teasing him about everything at every given opportunity & seeing as brienne of tarth is a descendant of his, i think she'd like brienne very much & would be proud. betha definitely had a very dominant personality in any room she entered & left.

i think that when it comes to parenting, she was the stricter & more dominant one of the two (in more ways than 1), & when their kids end up fucking up big time doesn't hesitate to let them know that they fucked up big time, maybe tosses a slipper at duncan when he gets a lil too mouthy or does smth stupid, like, lbr most of her kids, especially jaehaerys & shaera make some pretty shitty decisions that really ended up fucking aegon & his peaceful reign over & she wouldn't have liked that one bit. i like to think she ended up liking jenny of oldstones, even after she tried to warn jenny away from duncan by telling her the most embarrassing & most annoying stories of all the shenanigans he did since he was born but she liked that anyway & she technically cost duncan the iron throne & she wouldn't have anything against daeron being gay bc its not considered a sin to the old gods. but at the same time No One Fucks With Her Kids. she's like one of those almost embarrassing soccer moms that will be super passionate when aegon, her kids or dunk are performing at tourneys & would straight up fight other ppl in the stands, & she was clearly the more dominant one of the pair, always standing in front of egg & speaking louder than him in social gatherings bc she Knows she's That Bitch. obviously that changed when she became queen & aegon becomes king & obviously they need to watch their behavior in the public eye, but you could easily tell that if you were close to them, that dynamic hadn't changed. i'd like to think that duncan & rhaelle takes the most after bethania physical wise so they look the most visibly indigenous with brown skin, black hair & dark eyes in comparison to paleskinned blonde haired purple eyed jaehaerys & (bc i like valyrians who don't look paleskinned white haired & purple eyed + native targaryens SWEEP) mixed features of paleskinned black haired purple eyed shaera & tanskinned silver haired dark eyed daeron (who i imagine is rhaelle's fraternal twin) & rhaelle was both a mommy & a daddy's girl & even as an adult she's still their babygirl but even though duncan looks like bethania, his personality's a lot more like aegon's. i'd like to think that betha, daella & rhae were the closest of friends once she was formally introduced into the family & they told her all about aegon & all of his worst stories & they'd always be hanging out somewhere & gossiping, with rhae especially, but that's specifically because i'm tired of female romantic rivals trope & aegon never wanted to marry any of his sisters at all, & the aerion thing & the love potion story was enough so please for the love of g-d grrm can we not have incest for one (1) generation.

regardless, she was the last non-targaryen queen before the targaryen dynasty fell & she is robert, stannis, & renly baratheon & rhaegar, viserys & daenerys targaryen's great great grandmother & (legally) joffrey baratheon, myrcella baratheon (legally) & tommen baratheon (legally), mya stone, bella rivers, gendry waters, edric storm, shireen baratheon, laena iii velaryon, corlys iii velaryon, rhaenys targaryen-martell, aegon (vi) targaryen-martell (if young griff really is that aegon, but that's how he'd perceive it either way), jon snow & khalakka rhaego's great great grandmother. she's the ancestor of the vast majority of the five kings & daenerys targaryen save for balon greyjoy & robb stark, but i& suspect the theory that melantha blackwood, wife to lord willam stark, mother of edwyle stark (who married marna locke & had rickard stark who then had brandon, eddard, lyanna & benjen & then the stark children) & jocelyn stark (who married benedict royce in the vale), who could've possibly have fought against the young boy lord edwyle stark's rival claimants of winterfell upon lord beron stark's death during the she wolves of winterfell period, is bethania's younger sister, so that would make bethania the great great great aunt of robb, jon, sansa, arya, bran & rickon in the paternal line through eddard & lyanna & i suspect that's one possibility of where the starks' recent greensight comes from. so with all that in mind, brandon, eddard, lyanna, benjen & rhaegar would be cousins, just as robert & eddard would be cousins, & rickard & aerys ii (his murderer) would be second (?) cousins & that would make rhaegar (& viserys & daenerys) a third cousin of lyanna (& brandon & eddard & benjen for that matter, which collectively makes rhaegar, viserys & daenerys third cousins once removed with all the current era stark children through the blackwoods & ned & robert having the same separation, iirc i believe they'd be, like, third cousins & bc of that, the present day targaryens, starks & baratheons are all direct descendants of bloody benjicot blackwood & daenerys would actually have more blackwood blood than the current era starks & she's also quite a bit of dornish blood who the rhoynar were known to use water magic, & jon has blackwood blood on both rhaegar & lyanna's side). yeah. she would've known a young tywin lannister, very likely a young joanna lannister & young barristan selmy & gerold hightower & likely knew maester aemon & several of the grandparents & parents of the current generation.

in the later years of his reign, aegon was consumed by the search for dragonlore in the hopes of hatching dragons; he was desperate for the power that he believed could bring peace to westeros & his dream of dragons led to the tragedy of summerhall. the books don't really say who exactly died but it's known that aegon v died, as did their son duncan & duncan the tall, aegon v's kingsguard, died there, too & it's very possible that his sisters daella, rhae & their children died there, too. maybe even betha did, too, but i'm leaving that up to interpretation in a scenario where betha could've lived, maybe because she wasn't there or she escaped just in time to look out for her very heavily pregnant granddaughter rhaella targaryen. maybe bethania helped rhaella give birth to & raise rhaegar while the fires consumed summerhall & most of their family in it & bc of that i think betha & rhaella were close. it's also implied that duncan the tall saved rhaella (& betha itc) from the fire before going back in. for the rest of her life, she wore nothing but black in grief for her husband & family.

it's entirely possible that they were fans of daeron ii targaryen the good, who knows, maybe myriah martell could've mentored betha when she was introduced to court & going with the theory that betha could possibly be bloodraven's younger half sister, myriah could've adored her & treated her like a protégé of hers considering she & melissa blackwood may very well have gotten along at court during the reign of aegon the unworthy. betha & aegon also both agreed that the incestuous marriages of so many targaryens did more harm than good (& that's not even getting into his own experiences as a child), but even though betha tried to make politically advantageous betrothal marriages for her own children to house baratheon, house tully, house tyrell & house redwyne, literally every single one of them married for love over duty save for rhaelle: duncan married jenny of oldstones, a mysterious common woman & gave up his throne for her, jaehaerys & shaera got involved with each other despite aegon & betha trying to separate them, daeron was gay & died with his lover ser jeremy during a battle & rhaelle was sent as a peace offering to the baratheons & she's the entire reason why robert, stannis & renly & robert & stannis' children have a claim to the iron throne in the baratheon dynasty bc they have targaryen-blackwood ancestry in the paternal line through their father steffon baratheon. she would've been around when the last blackfyre rebellions & maybe the ninepenny kings were happening (which, btw, the gang was all there, the targaryens, the baratheons, the greyjoys, the starks, the lannisters, the arryns, the tullys & the martells were all there; brynden 'blackfish' tully, tywin lannister, kevan lannister, tygett lannister, quellon greyjoy {asha & theon's grandfather}, ormund baratheon, steffon baratheon, aerys ii targaryen, hoster tully, petyr baelish's father, jon arryn, rickard stark & barristan selmy, all united against the ninepenny kings so a lot of the dynamics & alliances of the past generation began in this war & house blackfyre was ended in the male line).

betha would've likely had duncan at least 19 to 23 at most, but for simplicity's sake i'm going with she had him at 19 & he was conceived on their wedding night at summerhall & later fell pregnant with him; she had jaehaerys ii at 24, shaera at 25, daeron at 27, rhaelle at 27 at least to 33 at most but i'm just gonna say that she had her at 27 as daeron's twin & betha would've unexpectedly become queen at 32 years old in 233 AC. she would be queen for approximately 26 years & when she became queen the brackens were probably crying screaming shitting throwing up & be BIG MAD ngl bc a blackwood of raventree hall becoming queen of the seven kingdoms would've been so humiliating for the brackens & i wouldn't have put it past the brackens to try & send their daughters to seduce aegon when he was younger like they tried with aegon iv targaryen but it didn't work just like last time (but unlike the feud between barba bracken & melissa blackwood, i'd like to think that bethania was. far more direct & aggressive towards her competition & wouldn't hesitate to beat a bracken bitch's ass lmfao). she would be the only queen in the targaryen dynasty (& the baratheon dynasty for that matter) who worshipped the old gods save for of course the de facto crown princess sansa stark. & honestly i think as queen, that would be disputed especially among the faith of the seven, specifically for her faith of the old gods (aka her INDIGENOUS RELIGION) & the faith very specifically sees the old gods as little more than demons (which is what. yknow. christianity said about indigenous religions in our world) & she would be the only indigenous queen of westeros. bethania's faith (& her being an indigenous woman who's also a warrior) would be another reason why people didn't want aegon to be king, considering many lords considered him half a peasant because he practically grew up among the smallfolk. so betha would've likely had to face sexism, antinative racism & faith discrimination. & i think her being a powerful indigenous woman & being a worshiper of the old gods & also her ties to bloodraven would've played a factor into the debates of the great council of 233 AC & even beyond possibly, westerosi politics was no stranger to criticizing unorthodox nobles, particularly women like larra rogare during the lysene spring, & maybe a reason why some lords may have wanted to get aemon on the throne was so that they could have a son of maekar who had no troublesome ties to the old gods rather than the half peasant son who's wife worshipped those strange & ancient gods & possibly practiced magic. i& genuinely think that betha's familial religion was used as an argument against aegon v's kingship & even after his reign bc how could aegon be trusted as a prospective defender of the faith when his own queen worshipped gods who were "little more than demons" & tried to turn aegon & betha's children from these same old gods from their "sinful" mother who "encouraged them away from the light of the seven" & assumed to share the same intrigue in magic & evil as associated with another blackwood old gods worshipper (& a bastard & maybe even her older half-brother at that) brynden "bloodraven" rivers. for people who were already distrustful of aegon bc he was basically brought up around the common people, the fact that the prince's wife & the mother of his heirs worshipped gods other than the seven might have been useful ammunition in their arguments against his ascension to the iron throne & during his long reign afterward.

overall, i think she was a talented political mind who's skills were ultimately strengthened by the eons long bracken-blackwood feud & possibly the teachings of melissa blackwood & brynden rivers & maybe even shiera seastar, who's own skills were honed during the court of king aegon iv targaryen the unworthy, may well have been the power behind her husband's throne if not his equal, smoothing things over when he infuriated the high lords, maybe she even served as his hand of the king when brynden rivers was exiled to the wall for his entire reign, i also think she's an extremely pragmatic & also deeply loving woman & was the one responsible for arranging her children's betrothals & while she was upset that they broke their betrothals, she never disowned them for it but despite all her diplomacy & tact, she had a fiery temper that was utterly terrifying in its power, & may have been a skilled seeress, huntress, archer & warrior, who knows, maybe she fought alongside aegon & her sons during one of the blackfyre rebellions. i genuinely believe she was a popular queen among both the smallfolk & the nobles which was a rare feat for a monarch but despite that respect, i'm sure there were rumors that always followed her around. i'd like to think she outlived her husband & most of her family & spent the rest of her life trying to protect the remainders of her family as dowager queen & dowager grandmother who still followed the old gods faithfully. i personally interpret that during their wedding, betha planted the last weirwood tree in the royal godswood of king's landing & ravens tended to flock to her whenever she went outside & she always seemed to know more than she logically could, even with the help of spies which she no doubt used, but she always claimed to others it was mere intuition.

she would've been 51 when brynden rivers disappeared during a ranging beyond the wall & would've been 58 years old during the tragedy of summerhall where her husband & so many of her family & friends died & when prince rhaegar targaryen was born. (which, btw, betha technically provides half of rhaegar, viserys & daenerys' genes bc the next two generations were inbred rippppp & that technically makes them half blackwood thus "half" native if you will lmfao). i also calculated how old she'd be in the present day & she'd literally be 99 years old. i'm& genuinely considering an au or maybe her main verse where betha actually Does live bc idk i think it'd be interesting to see betha interact with the current generations, particularly her grandchildren & great grandchildren & being forced into this intrigue.

[addamvelaryon]

do you think house velaryon had some sort of fall-out/ lose the favor of house Targaryen after the blackfyre rebellion? i mean Daemon Blackfyre had velaryon blood from Daenaera while the royal family wouldn't since they are from Viserys ii's line (now I'm speculating) and probably not having that close relationship with house velaryon as aegon iii's line did

After the death of the dragons, the Targaryens had to integrate more into Westerosi society in order to keep their family powerful. Marriage alliances are the best way to do that. So that obviously meant less Valyrian marriages with house Velaryon.

Now if there was a fallout between the 2 families, then yeah, the Blackfyre Rebellion would be the primary reason. I mentioned in this post that there's ample reason for house Velaryon to be Blackfyre loyalists, one of which is Daemon's blood ties to the family through Daenaera Velaryon.

The books make mention of several notable families who supported the Red Dragon and those who supported the Black Dragon. But there's nothing about which side house Velaryon supported. I think GRRM probably hadn't made up his mind on this at the time of writing TWOIAF/Dunk & Egg, otherwise why not mention it? While he could ultimately decide to depict house Velaryon as supporters of Daeron II, the author has still laid the groundwork for them to be Daemon supporters instead. So it wouldn't even come out of the blue if GRRM decided to go there in Fire & Blood v2.