#disagreeing with a popular fanon trope is so hard | Explore Tumblr Posts and Blogs

out-of-this-dimension · 3 years

Text

Fanon Hot Takes(tm) - Part 1

Hi, today I decided to do something a little different-- I wanted to talk about common Star Fox fanon and my hot take on them. A lot of people know about these headcanons because they’ve been so integrated into the fandom over the course of the long years. This will include things I see that are very recurring in Star Fox fics. I will not be linking any fics as examples and no, I will not be bashing any fics, just discussing how I think the tropes came into being and my personal thoughts on them.

To keep these posts from being super long, I’m going to break them up into several parts with me talking about various fanon things in each part. This is Part 1 out of God-knows-how-many.

Obvious disclaimer is obvious: These are my own personal feelings. If you disagree, then that’s totally fine! Variety is the spice of life and all that.

#1 - The Metal Legs Theory

Is there a better way to start the post off than by beginning with the metal legs theory? This one has been around for ages, it seems, and I don’t actually remember where it began but I’m 99% sure it was at least popularized by Game Theory if not originating entirely from MatPat’s video. I know the idea stems from the puppets used in the advertisements for the SNES game and how they had metal legs to help stand the puppets up. Regardless of where or how it all began, the theory’s existed for a long time. Adventures soft deconfirmed it with Fox’s legs appearing to be organic and Miyamoto hard deconfirmed it years later when Zero was released. Still, due to the theory’s popularity, it exists in a lot of fanworks today-- sometimes stated as fact and sometimes as the butt of a joke.

My hot take: Surprise, surprise... the Metal Legs Theory has always been one I’ve personally felt neutral towards. I really don’t have an opinion... it’s just kind of there to me. It adds a layer of grit to the Star Fox universe that I personally don’t think appropriate for the likes of SF64 and SFAdv (Assault is dark enough that it’d feel slightly more at home but even still, it feels a bit too dark) but it’s not so over-the-top that I’ve ever discounted its value entirely. I think it could be something fun to explore if you’re wanting to do a grittier take on the series (I mean, hey, I’ve done that before, it’s fun) but as something that’s canon? I’m... not surprised Miyamoto shot it down when it was brought up to him.

To me, a lot of dark theories about Nintendo games are really interesting to think on but it’s probably for the best for the brand that they don’t really pursue them. I don’t think the idea of forced leg amputation (particularly to become a pilot) is a subject that should be so easily tossed around games ultimately aimed for kids. So, really, interesting concept, fun for fanworks, but not something I’d ever want to see be made canon. Down for amputee rep in the series though, that would be nice... but maybe without the edgy, gritty vibe this fanon brings to the table.

#2 - James is Alive Theory

I somewhat tackled this in an old theory a long time ago about why I do think James McCloud is dead so my answer for this one is probably not going to be surprising. The character that held James’s position in the original Star Fox for SNES was Fox Sr. and I want to acknowledge that he was later confirmed to be trapped in an alternate dimension in the Itoh comics as opposed to outright killed. SF64 paid homage to this with James appearing at the end of the “true” route as an enigmatic figure that guides Fox from the exploding Andross base. Zero does something similar to this in its ultimate level.

James’s death has been questioned for years however, with some people believing he’s still out there somewhere and others believing him to be trapped in an alternate dimension a la Benimaru Itoh comic style. To be fair, the games have been very flakey about the fate of James McCloud-- to the point that no one really knows who actually killed James or how James actually died. In some renditions, he’s sucked into a black hole allegedly. In others, he’s allegedly straight up murdered. And we don’t really know whodunnit, with some evidence pointing to Pigma, some evidence pointing to Wolf, and a lot of evidence pointing to Andross. I think the mythos behind James’s death is honestly really fascinating and the fact that it is a mythos is really neat in itself because it adds that layer of mystery to his character. He’s seen as the pinnacle pilot of the Lylat System, the person that Fox is constantly being compared to, and making his demise something of a legend even to the players really adds to his mystique. So what are my thoughts about the idea of him being alive?

My hot take: I still do think James McCloud is dead or at least in a state in which he cannot be considered alive. At the time of SF64′s production, I think it’s safe to say that all of the lore from Star Fox Adventures had definitely not been dreamt up yet (particularly the cut content from Dinosaur Planet that talks about death and the part where Andross somehow persists as a ghost). However, even if you take a look at only SF64, I think the evidence points to James being dead all along. SF64 is a massive love letter to archetypes, particularly sci-fi archetypes. And if you think about it, James’s spirit returning from the grave to help his son honestly fits the bill pretty nicely alongside the other archetypes used in the game. Throw in Adventures, where Rareware all but put the final nail in the coffin with the Cheat Token easter egg where (presumably) a ghostly, disembodied James gives Fox encouragement... yeah, the odds aren’t seeming good for James.

I’ve talked about my theory with James at large, I think, but to recap: my personal theory is that James is stuck in limbo a la Andross style in Adventures. He exists as a ghost of sorts that cannot move on. Perhaps due to magic, perhaps due to his own willpower to see Andross and his legacy destroyed. I don’t discredit the idea he’s in an alternate dimension but I wanna point out that he’s also never seen in any of the warp segments (at least to my knowledge). He does seem to go where Andross goes or seems to linger on Venom, leading me to believe he is haunting the planet or his old enemy in some way.

In general, I don’t like the idea of “oh no, but this character was alive all along” especially when their death is such a focal point in another character’s arc (Zero especially emphasizes that Fox rebooted the team somewhat as a revenge run against Andross). It makes it all feel a bit cheaper somehow. But... I’ve seen fans tackle the concept with really innovative ideas so I can’t say I hate it. I just think if it’s done, it needs to be done right and extremely sparingly. The overuse of fake deaths in Assault is one of my biggest gripes to date about the game’s story but that’s a rant for another time.

#3 - General Pepper is a Dictator and Corneria is an Empire

Ahhhh General Pepper, you fluffy doge you. With that face (no, we won’t talk about his Assault design), it’s hard to think that this guy could be nefarious in any way. He is, after all, a pupper (a ‘good boi’ if you will), and dog characters are generally depicted as “good guys”. General Pepper should be no exception, right? Haaaaa...

I’m not entirely sure where this came from-- I’ve been directed to a particular fic that I think at the least popularized the fanon approach of General Pepper being Secretly Evil(tm). I’ll admit, I have not read the fic entirely yet but it’s on my ever-growing backlog. But lately, I’ve noticed a surge in people adopting the headcanon that there’s more to this fluffy, fluffy boi than what meets the eye. His Japanese title of “shogun” does not give him any favors, either. And when you read the Star Fox subtext, it actually paints an interesting picture of what Corneria is really like and who General Pepper really is. You never really see any leadership outside of General Pepper. He seems to be touted as the single leader of Corneria. The Cornerian army seems to have bases all around various planets, even attempting to control the climate of Fichina for... reasons? Additionally, you never see any other “good-aligned” planetary forces explicitly referred to as being “Katinan” forces or “Macbethian” forces... it’s all just under Corneria. And I think that is interesting. It really implies here that Corneria is an empire in its own right, though the game never calls it such (likely due to the evil connotations of empires).

My hot take: I absolutely am on board with General Pepper being a dictator and Corneria being an empire. There’s some pretty hefty evidence for it in the games and it adds a delightful shade of grey in an otherwise incredibly black and white set up. The Star Fox games can be so easily boiled down to “Corneria good, Venom bad” but adding in General Pepper being a dictator... lends into question the morality of it all. Sure, Venom is clearly bad and Andross is also very clearly bad. But how clean are Corneria’s hands really when it seems like they’re perfectly fine colonizing whatever planet they can?

I think the added fact of General Pepper being a dictator adds a fair amount to his juxtaposition to Andross as a character. The two are pretty heavily paralleled as the leaders of their respective factions, their existence as characters basically born from the Japanese idiom "the relationship of dogs and monkeys” (the Japanese equivalent of “fighting like cats and dogs” for us Americans). You can take it a step further and think about how Pepper is a man of war while Andross is a man of science and innovation. And further still-- how they used to be allies but took very different paths that led them to cross each other.

And it adds another layer of creepy to Andross’s line in Zero, where Andross mocks Fox for following the orders of dogs. Being a head scientist, Andross would have known a lot of Pepper’s dirty little secrets. With this headcanon, Fox might come across as idealistic towards Corneria, having his own biases. But Andross, who has been burned by General Pepper in the past, might be more aware of his and Corneria’s flaws. It takes that standard black and white conflict of “Corneria good, Venom bad” and chucks it out the window for something more interesting. I don’t think it’s enough to absolve Andross of his crimes-- far from it, the guy is a maniac and commits war crimes like he’s out for a stroll picking wildflowers, not a care in the world. But Pepper being a dictator and a very morally grey character adds a layer of complexity that I think rewards fans that are paying attention and I love when people capitalize upon it in their works.

Now make no mistake, this does add a layer of grit to the tale and I did criticize the Metal Legs Theory for doing that as well. The difference here is that it can be subtly in the background whereas the Metal Legs Theory feels like something that is overtly gritty. And honestly? I never see Nintendo acknowledging Pepper openly as a dictator. I don’t see the black and white nature of the Star Fox series ever being openly challenged... but maybe subtly. And I think for this series, that’s perfectly fine. I like it when developers reward players for paying attention to the worldbuilding... even though in this particular case, the idea of Star Fox helping an empire does, again, call into question the morality of it all. Sure, Pepper will probably never be like Andross in his villainy. But, again... how clean are his hands? And how nice is Corneria really, knowing what we do know about its relationship with other planets?

Anyways, I could ramble on and on about Corneria, Andross, and Pepper but I think a lot of it would fit better in a separate post so I will be ending Part 1 here! Part 2 may be out soon, it depends on my attention span. I’m still writing out the Star Fox Assault remake concept so that’s also taken some of my time up. Hopefully, I’ll have time to make some more posts and breathe some life into the SF fanbase on here.

Send me any fanon takes or common tropes in Star Fox fics that you’d like for me to talk about.

#star fox fanon #fanon #theories #starfox #star fox #long post #james mccloud #the metal legs theory

32 notes · View notes

octopunkmedia · 4 years

Note

Hi! My friend and I recently played D:BH and when we dipped a toe into the fandom, we found a LOT of Reed900. That confused us, because we hadn't even seen RK900 after our first playthrough and Reed seemed the opposite of nice. I finally watched your film and I really admire all the work you put into it, but I still don't understand. I love hearing people talk about the things they love, though, so could you explain what it is about RK900 that motivated you to make a whole-ass movie?

I've been in this fandom since literally day one, so I witnessed the origins of Reed900 and its growth personally (at least English speaking fandom. Russian fandom could be quite different). When DBH first came out, HankCon was definitely the dominant ship and primary reason we were all here, with some love going to Connor/Markus and Simon/Markus as well. A lot of people were non shipper fans. And you also had a handful of Connor/Gavin folks but no one gave Reed much development for the first 7 or 8 weeks. And at this time we all saw RK900 as evil. No one had any real "soft" headcanons for him. I remember seeing the Harrison Ford meme go around at that time where Connor was "Baby boy, baby" and RK900 was "Evil."

However, two things happened that changed this. One, a couple people started pointing out some of Gavin's dumb charm, like not being able to say "fuck" properly and winking with both eyes, which softened us to him. On top of that, as Hankcon casefics were written more and more, it started to become common to have Gavin as a background character at the DPD. And in many of these Hankcon fics, there was a subplot about how RK900 showed up and became Gavin's partner (often those stories were from Connor's POV and dealt with his feelings of meeting an upgrade of himself). Coupled with this, a lot of artists like Don Lemefo were making extraordinary beautiful art of Reed900 together, entertaining the concept of them being partners.

The fandom started to agree rather quickly that RK900 and Reed being partnered just made sense - and to me, I think this stems from the HankCon arc in the base game. Take a detective droid like Connor and have the asshole cop learn to love him - but Reed900 inverts many of the Hankcon tropes quite intentionally.

As more fics were written, people gave Gavin the habit of smoking to be "the opposite" of Hank's drinking. They gave Gavin a cat to be the opposite of Hank's dog. Many times Gavin is shown as anxious to contrast with Hank having depression. And then, we kind of can't ignore the big sexy elephant in the room lol. In Reed900, the human detective is generally seen as the bottom, while in HankCon, the human is generally seen as the top (don't @ me, I am speaking in majorities, not absolutes). As for 900, he is often a harder version than Connor - more sarcastic, more "take no shit," more aggressive in his dynamic with his human. I once saw someone say Reed900 was invented to give Gavin a dom, and I can't really disagree with that - although D/s and BDSM fics for HankCon absolutely did exist (there's one called Scratch that comes to mind) Reed900 seemed a more organic outlet for that sort of expression, imo. The fics I saw for Reed900 at that time were much more extreme, much more masochistic, just generally kinkier than it's sister ship.

So Reed900 provides a similar attractive dynamic, but offers a different version of HankCon, and allows writers to start from day ONE of their meeting rather than having the baggage of canon to deal with. Very quickly they started to become of equal importance to the fandom as Hankcon was, often paired up together as sister ships in solidarity. Kind of a Goofus and Galiant double date, where HankCon were loving and doting and Reed900 were the old married couple who called each other "assholes." Of course over time, fandom can't resist fluff, so Reed900 evolved from its BDSM/hatesex roots and a few slow burns like Fuck Pride and Like A Light I'm Luring You, along with some more comedic fics like DPD, cemented the idea that Gavin and 900 could actually LOVE each other. Even in the case of slow burns that were still sexy, like No Strings Attached, the softer side of the ship rose to become what I feel is now the most widespread version of the boys in English speaking fandom. Fanon Gavin was also softer and usually given a lot more redemption and development compared to his canon origin.

It always confuses me when people tell me that DE is the only Reed900 they enjoy because "regular Reed900 is too abusive." I have not seen such a thing in YEARS at this point. The overwhelming majority of Reed900 content created in the past year and a half has been incredibly soft, and very similar to how they are portrayed in Evolution. I did not invent that - it was pulled from all of my experience in fandom. The only thing I can say is that Russian fandom seems to have still held on to the idea of RK900 as a dominant tank, because I get a lot of comments from them about how my Nines is too soft compared to their version of him.

Also regarding the name Nines - I first saw this used in a fic by TerminallyDepraved back in July 2018 or so. Richard was the most popular name at first (a joke of his nickname being "dick", because....Gavin), especially because Brandon McCauley used it in what was, at the time, the most visible Reed900 casefic/slow burn series. It was also the summer of a thousand names of 900 lol, as every damn fic had a different one back then. Kay, Ace, Alex, Conner, Oleg (wtf Russia), Conrad, Conan, Collin, and some just left it RK or R. Over time the Richard name kinda faded for English speakers (although Russia holds it high still) and Nines/RK are pretty much the main ones I've seen for some time. Nines took awhile to catch on, as it's the name of a character in Nier Automata as well and that was hard for some of us to reconcile, but eventually it stuck.

TLDR, why I personally love Reed900 is a whole other story that basically comes down to "I'm Gavin and I need a Nines" (which Austin essentially is for me lol). I love enemies to lovers, I love work partners, and I love the possibilities. HankCon started to wear on me after awhile when I felt like I was reading the same thing over and over, and I eventually fell out of it. I didn't ever get that fatigue with Gavin and Nines for whatever reason. I just love them, more than I hate any of the struggle of making films, so that's the short of it.

Bear in mind this is one person's POV of how the fandom evolved so it's not an absolute truth, especially outside of English fandom. I was primarily on Tumblr and AO3 at the time but things on Twitter Jericho and Discord were not on my radar and may have been different back then (Hankcon was probably a lot hornier on Twitter Jericho than it was on Tumblr, for example).

What you gotta understand about Reed900 fandom though is 1) it wasn't random, 2) it wasn't a fucking "har har crackship" like people dismiss it as and it barely even spent time as a "rarepair", and 3) even though it isn't canon, it is so rooted in fanon at this point that there's a lot for new folks to catch up on, lol. Sorry I'm on mobile and can't put this under a cut rn - hopefully it isn't too annoyingly long. 👀

#reed900 #900gavin #detroit evolution

383 notes · View notes

imreallyhereforkataang · 4 years

Note

Hey you don’t have to answer this if you don’t want but do you not have issues with zut*ra? The parallels gifset you made was from a zut*ra saying that it was Aang’s fault Azula hit him. I really like your blog but zut*ra fans shit on Aang at every opportunity. Why put up with that?

Hey yourself! Appreciate that you censored Zu/tara, there.

Do I have issues with the ship. The way I see it, there are two ways to view romantic Zu/tara. One is simply given their canon personalities and dynamic -- acknowledging both characters' values, their motivations, their still-significant relationships with other people -- and then imagining Zuko and Katara trying something together in the future/an AU. The second is to view romantic Zu/tara in the ways it's commonly depicted in popular fanon; things associated with yin/yang notions, etc.

I don't really take issue with people shipping Zu/tara in the former case, because that’s often not affiliated with the unpleasant tendencies of aggressive Zu/tarians (and, keeping canon in mind, hopefully defuses the appeal to some common trends like Fire Lady Katara). I'm sure there are people who like to play around with the ship just for fun, like any other non-canon ship, not because they actually think Katara and Zuko are soulmates in-universe (or maybe they do but they're chill about it) but because their characters offer a premise that seems like an interesting idea to explore. And some people ship things casually, without thinking about it too hard or meticulously weighing characterizations. I don’t personally have a problem with that. Write fics, make art, play around and have fun while respecting the characters -- that's what fandom's supposed to be. Do I think Zuko and Katara are romantically compatible? No, and context is one contributor, but if people find a way to make it work for themselves, or they want to rewrite some elements of canon while staying aware that they are, in fact, rewriting canon, or if they want to focus more on what than who and would admit to doing so, then I understand. Some people are just more drawn to different dynamics, and they can still be respectful and maybe even appreciative of how the story actually played out regardless.

It becomes another scenario for me when people claim that Zu/tara was "robbed" in canon or that it had more development than the canon ships -- essentially, when people are adamant about applying their fanons to what we know in canon. Honestly, the depiction of Zu/tara that most people call for in the actual work does not sound like it involves Katara and Zuko at all. I often find people remolding Zuko and Katara to fit an aesthetic/dynamic/trope that, again, matches more with what they are than who they are, if anything, and then proceed to call that interpretation canon or "missed potential." When people forget canon, when people neglect Katara's trauma, when people dismiss her justifiable anger as "sexual tension," when people ignore how little Katara actually saw of Zuko's journey in comparison to the viewer, when people make claims that attraction had anything at all to do with Zuko's motivation to forge his path in becoming a better person, plus a whole lot of other things I've heard, that's bothersome. (In fact I'm probably going to write about Katara's anger, particularly in the back half of book 3, in the future, and why it's neither "OOC" like some claim nor indicative of attraction, though sometimes it's funny to me how fandom's driven me to think this is an actual debate worth having.)

I'm a fan of Katara and Zuko's canon relationship. They make a kickass duo and they demonstrate a great story about redemption/forgiveness, but it doesn't amount to a love story. In fact I would argue that making it about love (ignoring the fact that they never had feelings for each other) detracts from the story's effectiveness, because it would suggest ulterior motives for Zuko and that Katara had superficial reason to forgive him more easily. You may have noticed I tag platonic Zu/tara as "aang's yangs," because that's ultimately how I view them as a pair. In my eyes, they're the deuteroganists of AtLA, and since Aang’s the protagonist they branch outwards from him and reflect different parts of his journey while still standing on their own. Of course, their own story together is important as well, but I honestly feel like most of every argument for canon romantic Zu/tara is actually better suited for either Ka/taang or Zu/kaang (I could give an example but I'll refrain for the purposes of this ask).

Oh my, and double standards. Double standards everywhere. Such cold takes. Just today I was laughing over a brief "Aang is an abuser" /evidence/ post so ridiculous that it's impossible to take seriously. I suppose that's indicative of how I view Aang and Mai slander these days -- I know I'm on the correct side of the argument, if these complaints even warrant one, and so I've come to not let them weigh me down much too often, but I'm very probably going to hold a bad impression of you if you believe those sorts of things. And I don't think I'm being unnecessarily rude in saying so -- some people really just go to outlandish lengths to promote a ship whose merits are based on speculation and whose potential issues are traceable within the canon work. And if someone disagrees and says it could work, and that they want to play around with it, they can go ahead and explore the dynamic for fun, for sure. I just don't enjoy people who are aggressive/insensitive about it.

Rest assured -- and you've probably seen from the sort of content I reblog -- Aang is my fxcking cinnamon apple. I’m probably not going to bother engaging with people not worth spending the energy on, but of course I’m going to show support and love for my boy in spaces where that’ll actually mean something, and perhaps that can spill over into other areas by sheer number. It’s way more likely I’m going to judge someone for dissing Aang than for shipping Zu/tara, so if I reblogged a gifset from someone who shits on Aang, I probably wasn't aware of who the OP was outside someone who made a gifset for something I wanted to reblog. I’ll be honest, though, Anon, I’m really not sure which gifset you’re referring to, because I know I reblogged one recently, but I looked through the OP’s blog and didn’t find anything myself besides the fact that they ship Zu/tara. They even made a gifset for Aang. Suppose it’s just something I’ll have to watch out for.

Appreciate that you like my blog! As well as that you didn't want me to feel pressured to answer, that's kind of you. Sorry for the long response.

#irhfk replies

6 notes · View notes

tbatf-callout · 5 years

Text

Tbatf Callout

This is a collection of over 20+ people, with their own stories and issues with the creators of TBATF.

TBATF is a popular eddsworld comic with a huge fanbase. Of course, these people who all chose to remain anonymous to avoid being attacked and harassed came together and decided enough was enough. We want to make this clear, we aren't jealous of their fame, or who they interact with. We aren't jealous of their fans. We are concern individuals, who either been hurt, shunned and/or manipulated. We weren't lurking in the shadows and we certainly aren't liars. Everything posted below is the truth share between-now friends. Now you have the right to take what we say with a grain of salt but we assure you we aren't lying. For this reason, we will not be referencing anything from the official TBATF comic. The issues with the comic itself are purely speculation and humor is different for everyone.

What we want from doing this post, is that we all as fans learn to not blindly follow others, and understand that even our favorite people can do horrible things. We don't want a fandom war, we don't want people being hurt or attacked over their decision after reading this. It just to get the truth out.

This is Jax, one of the creators of TBATF personal discord, and this was her message to this ex-fan. This is horrible, this is disgusting. No matter what, that was a line she decided to cross. Now it's well known, Jax is in her later 20's. Jax is in control of her own actions, and mature enough to know that this is wrong, but she sent it anyway. Now you can say "but maybe they deserve that message". No. They did nothing, and here what happen before Jax sent this.

We have cut out our friend name for their safety, and Eli is a fake name for the sake of avoiding any harassing. This person did nothing wrong, we aren't even sure why Jax was so angry to even start attacking this person. But this is disgusting and shame on her, for thinking she could ever send this to someone.

Manipulation Intentional or not, manipulation can be severely damaging to everybody's mentality and the people around them. One big red flag of manipulation is changing the story and bringing out what seems like "love" and "support" when people start calling you out for bad behaviors. You ever hear the phrase "I didn't mean it, you know I love you"? That is one of the most common manipulation tactics that we see going through the posts that the crew of TBATF has pushed out.

Once criticizing becomes too hard for the crew to bare, they often send out what they call a heartfelt post of "we love you all and don't believe what other people are saying about us" type of post. These contribute to them not only guilt-tripping their audiences to be on their side. When this offense is repeated, it shows that the crew knows exactly what they're doing is wrong and gathers "supporters" who know absolutely nothing about the full situation and only knows what the TBATF crew tells them.

According to Psychology Today, "guilt trips are a form of verbal or nonverbal communication in which a guilt inducer tries to induce guilty feelings in a target, in an effort to control their behavior. As such, guilt trips are a clear form of psychological manipulation and coercion." In other words, guilt-tripping is the conscious act of forcing your feelings into other people in order to control their decisions and behavior patterns. You control them like sheep and not letting the audience choose their own sides when all the evidence is placed on the table.

On the site "Learning Mind", we learn that there are a few ways that we as a group can recognize blatant guilt-tripping. One of the big ones is the seventh one that is listed "7. You don’t feel as if you can say ‘No’." When it comes to the conditions that TBATF layout, they have strict rules and a narrow mindset, these are big creators that have in the past lashed out at other creators that had different harmless viewpoints. To them, agree to disagree doesn't exist and they don't seem to put those viewpoints past the person in front of them. When younger children interact with these people (we know their fanbase are younger kids) they want to live up to their expectations and don't seem to look at their idol's awful behaviors and instead of blinding themselves to a toxic idolization of a toxic person. It happens often with big YouTubers who have either done appalling things or started dreadful trends.

Anti-Ship/Anti-Fandom

The main rule enforced in the servers any of the creators are mods or admins in having this one rule in common. No Shipping

However, as most know, this is a rule they've been well known for breaking, as long as it's not two men or two women. In their server, they have a strict no ship rule. Which we are aganist, but not for their reason of "avoiding ship wars". The problem is how they do handle the issue when ships is brought up. There a correct way and wrong way of coming at it.People who post art have to do this

or else they get gang on and harassed and their content deleted if the boys are close together or something stupid like that.

They act like people who draw or write these ships or different fanon ideas as...kinda bad people.

They seem to act that if you don't follow eddsworld canon, you aren't in the right and people who have interacted with them, came forward and said they felt bad for shipping or for liking certain characters. It's dishearting to hear from people you look too, saying how awful certain things you enjoy when the things you enjoy aren't bad. Shipping isn't bad as long as you respect others. If you ship and someone else doesn't, then that's okay. If you have a headcanon and someone else doesn't, also okay. As long as it isn't a problematic trope, then go for it. But these creators don't seem to understand this, and instead attack and belittle.

Now they used to have blog, which they consider their steampunk au. In said au, each of the boys, or how they phrase it, their ancestors (while completely identical to the main characters with altered outfits), have a female partner. Three of them are white, except for Tord's wife, who is a whitewashed Japanese character.

The main focus will now be on her, as she is the most problematic. When Tord is portrayed, he is seen as a cheater, along with the other boys every once in a while. When asked why he doesn't get a divorce, he gets a gun put to his head, and states she is the daughter of the leader of the mafia and would kill him if he even tried. They are still portrayed as very sexual with each other, almost ignoring the fact Tord is not willingly with her. It also pushes some stereotypes (usually European) of violent and forceful Asian people, while highly sexualizing her. When cosplayed, she is always depicted as a white woman, as long as she has a large bust. They don't mind this ship and don't get on people either when they ship Eduardo and Laurel. So what assumption are we suppose to make? Hetero ships is fine, but if we make it same-sex couple it's bad?

(This isn’t true in our experience and were all in many servers? This is a trick to try to sell their nonshipping in rule. Like look what happens if we don’t have this rule, the fandom is nasty and horrible and we’re the only safe place)

There still a lot of issues but we figure to end it here and be open to discussion. It took a lot to even decide to get to this point and we want the truth to be out. We're tired of being label as liars, people who are jealous, haters, etc. Please don't harass anyone, and don't send hate to each other. Thank you for your time.

#eddsworld #ew tbatf #eddsworld tbatf #tbatf #callout #txt post

644 notes · View notes

notreallythegreatestperson · 4 years

Text

THE POSITIVE & NEGATIVE; MUN & MUSE - MEME.

FILL OUT & REPOST ♥ This meme definitely favors canons more, but I hope OC’s still can make it somehow work with their own lore, and lil’ fandom of friends & mutuals. Multi-Muses pick the muse you are the most invested in atm.

TAGGED BY: @the-judge-of-bones (sort of)

TAGGING: Do it

MY MUSE IS: canon / oc / au / canon-divergent / fandomless / complicated

Is your character popular in the fandom? YES / NO.

Is your character considered hot™ in the fandom? YES / NO / IDK (only a few weirdos)

Is your character considered strong in the fandom? YES / NO / IDK

Are they underrated? YES / NO / IDK (they get a lot of attention for being evil but imo there's more potential depth to them that doesn't get explored enough)

Were they relevant for the main story? YES / NO (while you can hc any number of things, you could remove all direct references to them and still have most of the narrative be the same, apart from the very end or the geno route)

Were they relevant for the main character? YES / NO / THEY’RE THE PROTAG (especially since I believe in NarraChara)

Are they widely known in their world? YES / NO

How’s their reputation? GOOD / BAD / NEUTRAL. (varies depending on setting, but generally not great)

HOW STRICTLY DO YOU FOLLOW CANON? — I tend to stick pretty close to what little is properly established for Chara, and I enjoy finding little details in the game that I can link into their story (e.g. Asriel asking Frisk to let him win in the final fight, or the fire tools in New Home being filed down.) There’s definitely some of my own headcanons in there though, and I’ll often switch up canon a little bit to make a RP setup work.

SELL YOUR MUSE! AKA TRY TO LIST EVERYTHING, WHICH MAKES YOUR MUSE INTERESTING IN YOUR OPINION TO MAKE THEM SPICY FOR YOUR MUTUALS. — You know the trope of “the villain has to think they’re doing the right thing”? Chara’s the opposite of that. They’re a kid deliberately playing the villain, who’s just happened to gain the power needed to be actually dangerous. They’ll do almost anything to get to where they want to be. They’ve got the RP potential for anything from soft wholesome interactions with family and friends, to intense fights to the death. They’re very reactive, and will change the way they talk and act to get a particular response out of someone. They’re the kid who thought they were the Chosen One, and died for that mistake.

NOW THE OPPOSITE, LIST EVERYTHING WHY YOUR MUSE COULD NOT BE SO INTERESTING (EVEN IF YOU MAY NOT AGREE, WHAT DOES THE FANDOM PERHAPS THINK?). — They’re straight up not a good person. They can be very antagonistic, no matter how friendly your character is. I don’t ship with them at all, romantically or sexually. They’re a bit overplayed as a RP character, and I don’t exactly do much new with them. It’s very hard to get them to open up, or to do any kind of character development - not impossible, but hard.

WHAT INSPIRED YOU TO RP YOUR MUSE? — I’ve always found villain characters interesting, often more than the protagonists themselves. When I first heard of Undertale, I only knew of Chara as the “hehe creepy murder kid villain” character, and played about with RPing them a bit. As I got more into the fandom, I started learning more about them, and how much depth they could have, and it inspired me to keep developing and writing them.

WHAT KEEPS YOUR INSPIRATION GOING? — I tend to be very on and off with blogs like this, I’ll have a period where I’ll have loads of inspiration and then it’ll drop off over time. This time around, I’ve managed to join a really cool discord and made some great friends, so I’m hoping they’ll inspire me to stick around a bit longer :D

SOME MORE PERSONAL QUESTIONS FOR THE MUN.

Give your mutuals some insight about the way you are in some matters, which could lead them to get more comfortable with you or perhaps not.

Do you think you give your character justice? YES / NO / I SINCERELY HOPE I DO?

Do you frequently write headcanons? YES / NO / SORT OF? (I have a bunch, I just rarely make a headcanon-specific post. Please ask me about headcanons for anything though.)

Do you sometimes write drabbles? YES / NO

Do you think a lot about your Muse during the day? YES / NO (That’s a special interest baby!)

Are you confident in your portrayal? YES / NO / SORT OF?

Are you confident in your writing? YES / NO. (I know it’s not the best, but I think it works well enough)

Are you a sensitive person? YES / NO. / SORTA. (Not really, I’m generally pretty thick-skinned, though it’s still always reassuring when someone lets me know they enjoy interacting with me 💛)

DO YOU ACCEPT CRITICISM WELL ABOUT YOUR PORTRAYAL? — I try my best to, I want to make this an enjoyable experience for my partner too, and as long as it’s constructive criticism and not just “haha you suck”, I’m happy to listen.

DO YOU LIKE QUESTIONS, WHICH HELP YOU EXPLORE YOUR CHARACTER? — YES. ABSOLUTELY. SEND ME RANDOM QUESTIONS FOREVER AND ALWAYS.

IF SOMEONE DISAGREES TO A HEADCANON OF YOURS, DO YOU WANT TO KNOW WHY? — If they want to discuss it, sure! Chara’s very based on headcanons and how you personally interpret canon, and it’s honestly really interesting how many different views there are on it.

IF SOMEONE DISAGREES WITH YOUR PORTRAYAL, HOW WOULD YOU TAKE IT? — it’s not for everyone, and that’s chill! I’m not expecting everyone to like my take on the character. If there’s something specific I’m doing wrong (eg a serious issue I’m misinterpreting), feel free to let me know.

IF SOMEONE REALLY HATES YOUR CHARACTER, HOW DO YOU TAKE IT? — Again, that’s honestly chill. They’re a pretty polarizing character, and the fanon for them can be pretty negative sometimes. I don’t personally agree with some of the reasons why people don’t like them (nochoco’s theory of them abusing Asriel, for example), but I know I’m not gonna be able to change everyone’s mind.

ARE YOU OKAY WITH PEOPLE POINTING OUT YOUR GRAMMATICAL ERRORS? — I don’t mind jokey mentions if I make a funny typo, or pointing out mistakes in permanent parts of my blog (a friend pointed out yesterday that my description had been saying Indepent instead of Independent for months lmao). I don’t think that nitpicking every reply is gonna do much good, though.

DO YOU THINK YOU ARE EASY GOING AS A MUN? — I hope so!

#look at what you’ve done (meme)#disconnected. (ooc)

2 notes · View notes

hannigrammest · 5 years

Text

The Story of How Hannigram Became Canon to Those Who Are in Doubt

This post is mostly meant for the casual viewers who I noticed have joined Hannibal Subreddit after the news about the S4 negotiations. It is great that we are growing in numbers, but there seems to be a misunderstanding in regard to Hannigram (the romantic relationship between Will and Hannibal) and people who ship this pairing.

Hannigram is not a fanon pairing. It is not ‘just in the heads’ of silly girls or overly-romantic viewers. It is a canonically acknowledged couple that is supported massively by the cast and Bryan Fuller. Furthermore, this romance is the essence of the show, because Will and Hannibal find everything in each other. No, their relationship is not based merely on romance or sexual attraction. But also no, a more explicit romance in S4, which seems very likely and has been hinted at many times, will not destroy the complexity of the relationship. It will add to it.

The first part is canon evidence of Hannigram season by season. The second part of this huge post is tweets, quotes, and photos with Bryan and cast in regard to Hannigram. (Sorry, I can't seem to break the post in parts for easier reading, the formatting links don't work here for some reason.)

THE SHOW ITSELF

Season 1 is obviously the most ambiguous one in this regard because the relationship only starts to develop. And yes, the majority of scenes can be interpreted as the blossoming friendship, because it is a friendship first and foremost. Even several rather romantic moments can be technically classified as such — but only if you ignore the looks that Will and Hannibal give each other and the later narrative. Still, this is all ambiguous at this stage.

When Hannibal offers Will to take care of Abigail, he repeatedly calls them her “fathers”. Not “uncles” or “caretakers” or any other option — fathers, and while this word by itself might not mean much, it is clearly supposed to hint at what kind of relationship is going to unite Will and Hannibal in the future. In 1.07, Will doesn’t come to the appointment and Hannibal is pining. It is a very powerful and explicit scene, with Hannibal slowly walking to his chair, checking his calendar to make sure Will had to come, touching the phone longingly, then abruptly making a decision and going to look for him. All of this is accompanied by the corresponding music. Is this scene romantic? Some may see it this way, some may disagree. But I think most will agree that such obvious pining is a common romantic trope that's often shown in media. The focus and the way the scene is presented are everything: they didn't just show that Will didn't come and that Hannibal decided to find him. No, we had a slow focus on all his hesitant actions and his longing for contact. In any way, at this stage, it is no longer a mere friendship. It goes deeper, to the point where Hannibal can’t stand not knowing where Will is and craving contact enough to drive for hours in the search for him.

Once again in 1.07, Will brings Hannibal a bottle of wine out of blue and acts awkwardly and shyly when declining the invitation to join the dinner party. We don’t know why Will did it and it is never addressed again, but I think everyone will agree that bringing a bottle of wine to another person for no reason and just for him has a rather romantic shade.

Then, in that same scene, Will claims he can’t stay because he has ‘a date with a Chesapeake Ripper’. It is a joke, of course, but once again, it’s fiction. The word choice is very deliberate, and Bryan loves to foreshadow the upcoming events.

In 1.08, Will drives an hour in the snow to tell Hannibal about the kiss with Alana and Hannibal exhibits a very controlled jealousy, making a snarky comment about the long drive and telling Will that he had been motivated not by attraction, but by the need to find a balance.

In 1.09, Hannibal calls him and Will Abigail’s fathers again and touches his shoulder. Yes, it is ambiguous, but when (especially) you know what’s coming, you can’t help but notice how this touch is too hesitant and fragile for a mere gesture of friendship and unity. I’ll just say, even my father caught up on it right away, which is saying something.

These are the most explicit things I recall from season 1. Now, season 2 is way more direct.

Many scenes of Hannibal pining, sitting with a glass of wine and staring at Will’s chair at his time of appointments is a common romantic trope. Yes, it can be interpreted in different ways — for example, Will has already become a part of Hannibal and Hannibal misses him as the person who has the power to understand him. However, I feel like I have to emphasize the fact that it cannot be the only reason. Hannibal has already met people with extreme empathy before, such as Pazzi. He has also met people who were happy to join him and who had similar mindset, as Tobias Budge. Hannibal wasn’t interested in them, but he’s interested in Will. Will is special because he is himself, and like Hannibal will say later, love either pays you a visit or it does not. It clearly did with Will.

Soon after Will is released from prison, he goes to Hannibal to start the implementation of his and Jack’s plan. What does he choose to do? He dresses up and polishes himself up, presenting himself to Hannibal in the way that we have never seen him before. The first thought that comes to mind is ‘seduction’. Consciously or unconsciously, Will makes himself look as attractive as possible.

In 2.08, Hannibal touches Will’s face and holds it, staring into his eyes. This is romantic. It is one of the most popular romantic tropes that ever existed. ‘Transcendent’ love doesn’t require this kind of very intimate touch to be displayed. More than that, things become very dangerous here because if there had been no explicit follow-up, Bryan would have been accused of queerbaiting. Fortunately, it wasn’t the case.

In 2.09, Will has a dream where Hannibal directly calls him his ‘beloved’ several times. In 2.10, Hannibal treats Will’s hands very gently and we get camera focusing on it thoroughly. It is a deliberate depiction of eroticism that's often used in romances to create and underline romantic and/or sexual tension. In the same episode, we have a beautiful sex scene, seemingly between Hannibal and Alana and Will and Margot. However, it is there to show a very intimate and all-encompassing connection that is developing between Will and Hannibal, and it is structured this way specifically. Will reaches orgasm when he sees the Wendigo, a reflection of Hannibal. The words used before, like Hannibal's words about "never touching", are said to Alana but put on the image of Will.

Alana notices the shift in this relationship and asks Will and Hannibal about it. They talk about “crossing boundaries” and the fact that they “know where we are with each other”, and Alana clearly remains suspicious. In the end of the episode, Will and Hannibal have an intimate dinner full of lingering glances.

In 2.11, the episode starts with the eating of ortolans, which has being pointed out as an allusion to blowjob by the creator) If you have missed it, just re-watch this scene again with this in mind. It is very explicit, to the point of being uncomfortable. Hannibal’s reaction to learning that Margot is pregnant from Will is to hint Mason about it, thus endangering her and her child. Granted, he seems to genuinely regret it, but the deed is done. It is a jealous and possessive reaction, which has been further confirmed by Mads. During the con, he said: "If Margot had Will’s baby, it would be very hard for Hannibal to get over it. He’d be jealous and very grumpy." In this same episode, Alana looks at the burnt ‘Shiva’ that Hannibal has left for Will and calls it a ‘courtship’. So, we get the explicit confirmation that Hannibal is courting Will. And no, he isn’t courting an emerging killer in Will because at this point, he thinks that Will has already embraced his potential by killing Randall and Freddie and eating her. To Hannibal’s mind, Will is almost ready, but he is too lovesick to stop. Can you imagine him digging up the corpse of ‘Freddie’, decorating it, and displaying like that? It’s hilariously romantic — in a dark way.

In 2.12, Will chooses Hannibal by freeing him from the trap and then not giving him up to Jack after he mutilates Mason. Hannibal draws a fanart (!) of himself and Will as Achilles and Patroclus. For those who don’t know, these two are popular examples of lovers. This isn't just friendship. The reference to Achilles and Patroclus is often used to hint at a romance, it's a popular trope as well.

In 2.13, Hannibal talks about ‘imago’, an image of a loved one, and then says that he and Will have an image of each other and offers him to run away. Two men running away together to reunite with their daughter is romantic. Will chooses Hannibal once again by calling him, but it is too late. We get a heartbreakingly tender and intimate touch between them before the stabbing. As Mads said, "Will is the light of Hannibal's life and Hannibal killed Abigail to break Will's heart the way he broke his." Just as he said that "Hannibal was blinded by love."

Season 3 is where all subtext is taken into text. Hannibal has chosen Bedelia as a substitute to Will, and note how many people believe they become lovers. So, why Will and Hannibal running away is platonic, but Hannibal doing the same with Bedelia is not? Even though when the only person he does love is Will. We see that he is dissatisfied with Bedelia and is growing restless.

In 3.01, we get a flashback to Gideon who teases/mocks Hannibal by saying, ‘If only that company could be Will Graham’. So, in the very limited interactions, even he managed to glimpse the attraction, because let’s be honest, he didn’t have time to understand all deep layers of this relationship, but his phrase has been included deliberately.

In this episode, Hannibal meets Anthony, practically a Will mirror. He looks similarly, is smart, sassy, and he is even enthusiastic about Hannibal’s crimes. Ideally, he is everything Hannibal has wanted. But what does he do? He kills Anthony and turns him into a Valentine heart for Will. Before that, he makes an example of the heart from Da Vinci’s ‘perfect man’. In 3.02, Will recognizes it as such and calls it a Valentine and a ‘broken heart’. He asks himself, “Do I still want to go with him?”, and answers, “Yes”.

In 3.03, we get the first ‘in love’ confirmation. Hannibal is shaken after seeing Will and hearing his words of forgiveness. When talking about him with Bedelia, Bedelia says, “Betrayal and forgiveness are best seen as something akin to falling in love”, and Hannibal replies, “You can’t control with respect to whom you fall in love”. The longing for Will has made Hannibal reckless, and Bedelia notices it by mentioning that he is going to get caught with this kind of behavior. In the end of the episode, Hannibal once again says that Will makes him feel love. He adds, “Love. He pays you a visit or he doesn’t.” Which love can either come to a person or not? Technically, these words could be interpreted as platonic love, but in the beginning of this very episode, we got a confirmation that the nature of this love is romantic. Will, in turn, is still reverent about Hannibal and even travels to his home to find out more about him. His attitude changes when he sees Chiyoh, who he sees as another toy abandoned by Hannibal, and it brings back the insecurities. We see it through how often Will compares himself and Chiyoh and how he is filled with anger and bitterness again (which were absent before this meeting). Chiyoh sees right through him and repeatedly states that Will is wrong to compare them, but Will persists.

In 3.04, we see that Will spends a lot of time sitting in Hannibal’s house, which is yet another romantic trope. Even Alana knows where to find him. Will admits to Jack that he “wanted to run away with Hannibal”, which also has a romantic connotation. Before that, Will was making the boat that he later uses to come and find Hannibal. This scene is intercut with his Mizumono memories, namely, with Hannibal's face that emerges every time he moves yet another part of the engine. This is a vivid demonstration of Will trying to repair what is now broken. He also literally sails after Hannibal, which is considered extremely romantic by many tropes at once. Chilton calls Will and Hannibal’s interactions a “flirtation” in this episode.

In 3.05, when discussing what to do with Hannibal, Chiyoh says, “I told you, there are means of influence other than violence” and kisses Will, thus showing him what others means exist. It is yet another direct allusion to the romantic part of Will and Hannibal’s relationship because Chiyoh basically offers him to kiss Hannibal instead of trying to kill him.

In 3.06, Hannibal says the famous, ”If I saw you every day, forever, Will, I would remember this time”. He said the same words to Clarice in the books shortly before having sex with her. It is an utterly romantic phrase that just cannot have any other meaning, especially when you count the narrative and the source material. Will adds some more romantic phrases, like “We are conjoined, I wonder if either of us can survive separation.” Such level of love is incredible, but you don’t say things like that to a person who you feel can just understand you. Nor to a simple friend or a spiritual mentor. It’s everything at once, especially when coming from Will. Things go badly after that and we get a knife and a drill. Scenes in Mason’s house are great and show that Will and Hannibal could be a great team. Hannibal saves Will and carries him home bridal-style. He changes his clothes, puts him into bed, and waits for him to wake up while writing down formulas that could change the time and erase some of the events. When Will wakes up, Hannibal admits that he has discovered Will in his Mind Palace, victorious, thus giving the power into his hands. When Will rejects him (by saying he’s not going to miss him), Hannibal gives himself up, knowing that chances are, he will never get back to freedom and he will never see Will again. Prison is the ultimate act of love because Hannibal is helpless there, completely on Will’s mercy. As Mads said during the con, "Will forgetting him was the last thing Hannibal wanted to hear, so that’s why he surrendered. The only way Will would see him again is if he’s in jail, and he would eventually visit. He was afraid he’d never see Will again otherwise."

3 years pass and we see that Will has a family. But — surprise! He is unhappy. He doesn’t even go fishing with them to have some time for himself. He hides the letter from Hannibal and goes to read it in the middle of the night. He never returns Molly’s ‘I love you’, never attempts to touch her, can’t even keep up a conversation with her, and literally sees himself falling to pieces. At the earliest opportunity, he jumps at the chance to see Hannibal. He didn’t have to do it. We are shown that he has recreated the crime scene perfectly, better than ever before, but Will lies to Jack about it and asks to see Hannibal.

In 3.09, we have a very powerful scene of Hannibal and Will reuniting, exchanging long sorrowful and heartbroken gazes. Hannibal says, “I gave you a child”, which puts him and Will in a category of parents again. He says that Will has chosen a ready-made family and Will doesn’t argue. We get a “Murder Husbands” reference from Freddie.

In 3.10, Will seeks Bedelia out. He acts catty and jealous. Bedelia calls him “Hannibal’s bride”, and calls Will out on visiting Hannibal just because he missed him, which Will doesn’t deny. He is confident and snarky at those scenes, using every opportunity to cut into Bedelia for having a relationship with Hannibal and surviving it in even better shape than he did. Bedelia says, “My relationship with Hannibal is not as passionate as yours”, and then adds: “You are here visiting old flame. Is your wife aware of how intimately you and Hannibal know each other?” They literally place Hannibal on the same level as Will’s wife. Then we have, “Your experience of Hannibal’s attention is so profoundly harmful yet so irresistible, it undermines your ability to think rationally.”

In 3.11, Hannibal sends Francis after Molly and Walter. Will doesn’t really comfort them, we see clearer than ever what a wedge exists between them. Hannibal asks, “How is the wife?”, which is another display of blatant jealousy. Will gets it, and he can’t deny the truth any longer.

In 3.12, we have the exchange that should have settled the debates about romantic part of relationship once and for all. Bedelia compares herself and Will to Hannibal/Bluebeard’s wives, and mentions how she would have preferred to be the last — the one that Will is. Will asks, “Is Hannibal in love with me?”, and Bedelia replies, “Could he daily feel a stab of hunger for you, and find nourishment at the very sight of you? Yes. But do you ache for him?” Will’s look and his silence speak volumes as everything fades to black slowly. This is it, the textually explicit confirmation. Fans didn’t come up with the idea that Will and Hannibal are in love, it was stated directly on screen, several times.

Shortly before the confession, Bedelia says, "It excites him, knowing that you marked in this particular way." Personally, I always felt some sexual subtext in this phrase, and it is confirmed when we regard the similar scene in the book. Clarice gets sperm on her face and these same words sound. Granted, the situations are very different, but it proves that the phrase does indeed have sexual connotations, and it was deliberately planned like this.

Will devises a complicated and deadly plan after this. He sets up Chilton, which can be seen as courting gift to Hannibal, and in 3.13, he lies to everyone to break Hannibal out of prison. Bedelia calls him out on it once again, saying, "Can't live with him. Can't live without him." Will doesn't deny it - he confirms it. When Hannibal says he'll agree to the plan if Will says 'please', Will does it - in an obviously flirting way. Hannibal calls him a 'cunning boy', which is once again obvious flirting, especially considering the way he says it. His plan results in the deaths of numerous officers, but Hannibal is free. We have another romantic trope where Hannibal pretends that Will is a hitchhiker and asks if he’s going his way. In the house, they have another loaded conversation where Will admits that he doesn’t think he can save itself, and that it’s fine.

Predictably, Will can’t handle seeing Hannibal killed, so he reaches for his gun. We know the rest. At the cliff, Will finally accepts the truth, and he gives the fate a chance to stop both of them or to set them free. They fall into the ocean under the Love Crime song, and since the water symbolizes reborn, we can guess what happens after that.

Post-credits scene indicates that Will and Hannibal have paid a visit to Bedelia and are in the process of eating her while she’s hiding the fork to stab one of them as he approaches. The deleted epilogue to the series shows that they are in perfect harmony now.")

Who's too lazy to read all of that, you can just check the quotes below and watch some fan videos where direct lines from canon are presented. My two favorites:

Reciprocity

Crazy in love

QUOTES

Initially, during S1, Bryan said he wanted to explore the idea of “heterosexual male friendship”. However, he later admitted that he was worried about negative homosexual stereotypes surrounding the imbalance in power in the relationship between Will and Hannibal, and in the podcast due to the beginning of American Gods, he confessed that he “wanted to approach “Hannibal” from the angle that no one has explored before — the angle of romance”.

During the airing of S2-S3, and beyond, Bryan was the one who pointed out romantic and even sexual subtext, and promoted Hannigram further. The cliff scene is officially labeled as "Kiss_alts".

Their love is queer

A collection

Canon. Original tweet is deleted, so only Bryan's is left. The person asked him to say whether Hannigram is canon.

Falling

Last wife

They Flip

Always

Will and Hannibal survived the Fall

Mere teasing, but it shows that Bryan does acknowledge sexual tension between Will and Hannibal: They did change clothes as well as Their lips were busy (to the question of what Will and Hannibal were doing in the car in TWOTL).

Bryan's favorite quote from the show: Is Hannibal in love with me?

Finally, the shirt Bryan wore at one of the latest meetings

Hugh on why it took Will so long to realize Hannibal is in love with him

Hugh on Will's reaction to Bedelia's answer about Hannibal being in love with him: ‘Oh crap, maybe this thing I’m feeling is love’

Hugh: Relief from loneliness

Hugh: It's romance

Mads: It was love at the first sight

You know better than to breed

Will Graham is covered in Hannibal’s body fluids

Bryan: I feel one is omnisexual and one is heterosexual and there's a lot of influence going back and forth, who knows with a six pack of beer what would happen: http://uproxx.com/sepinwall/hannibal-creator-i-wanted-to-be-sure-we-had-an-ending-for-the-story/

To the question of whether explicit Hannigram was a part of the initial plan, Bryan Fuller stated: "No, it naturally evolved because I guess I was absorbing so much of Mads and Hugh's performance, which felt like it was growing in intimacy, and it would have been inauthentic not to address it. Because all of these characters, and particularly Bedelia, was able to call out what she had witnessed [between Hannibal and Will], it seemed like a natural conclusion. I remember when I turned in the rewrite pages where Will asks Bedelia if Hannibal is in love with him, I got a note from Don Mancini, one of our writers who was always pushing for more homosexual text – not just context or subtext but text, text, text – and he was like, "I'm so glad you put that in there! They said it! They said it!" http://www.digitalspy.com/tv/hannibal/interviews/a667077/hannibal-bryan-fuller-talks-season-4-sexual-fluidity-and-how-will-became-clarice-starling/

Discussing what motivated him to verbally acknowledge the romance between Will and Hannibal, Fuller mentioned: "It felt like we had to s–t or get off the pot, ultimately, because there had been so much going on between these two men that when Will asks, "Is Hannibal Lecter in love with me?" it is very much about death and the romance between these two men. There is a quality to connections that go above and beyond sexuality. You can have this intimate connection with somebody that then causes you to wonder where the lines of your own sexuality are. And we didn't quite broach the sexuality. It was certainly suggested, but the love is absolutely on the table." http://tvline.com/2015/08/29/hannibal-series-finale-will-lecter-cliff-bryan-fuller-interview-season-4/

Remembering how the song for the finale of the series was created, Fuller said: "It was interesting. She [Siouxsie Sioux] was like, "I want to write this song, and what are the things I should really be thinking about?" And I was like, "this is a love story. A love story between a full-fledged psychopath and someone who has nascent psychopathic abilities." Actually, Hannibal Lecter is not a psychopath; he's something else entirely. But it's a love relationship between two men: one of them is a cannibal, and one of them understands those cannibalistic instincts all too well." http://uproxx.com/sepinwall/hannibal-creator-i-wanted-to-be-sure-we-had-an-ending-for-the-story/

Bryan Fuller: "Clarice never, until the end of Hannibal, submitted to that romance, whereas Will seemed to be on a slippery slope right from the beginning, so there's a contrast to be drawn between them." http://www.digitalspy.com/tv/hannibal/interviews/a667077/hannibal-bryan-fuller-talks-season-4-sexual-fluidity-and-how-will-became-clarice-starling/

Bryan in the commentary: "“After killing Francis Dolarhyde with Hannibal Lecter, he realizes this is exactly what Hannibal Lecter has wanted all along. He has wanted a partner in crime - a murder husband, as it were - and the sad truth of it all is that Hannibal was right. Will did enjoy it. Will thought it was a beautiful, powerful thing." https://omnisexualhanniballecter.tumblr.com/post/134099645797/after-killing-francis-dolarhyde-with-hannibal

Hugh during PaleyFest 2014 (prior to S3): "They are in love or they love each other, that's unquestionable. I think it's a platonic love... but it's rich in... (audience and cast laughs) Ok, we've done two seasons so far... so platonic love and they recognize each other as unique in the world, they reflect each other in a way, it's like profound recognition and relief that comes with it. And they are good looking guys." Mads agrees: "Exactly. Losing him or what Hannibal did with him in the two seasons is probably the closest he has ever been to loving anyone. And what love means in his universe we have to see later on. But it's heartbreaking everything that happens to poor Will is also heartbreaking for Hannibal."

Hugh: You could say that during the second half [of season three]-I mean, obviously we’re jumping ahead here, but Will comes back to Hannibal. He’s now got this family, and Will, independently and pretty quickly, starts coming to the conclusion that it’s not sustainable for him to have that family. Like, he’s not the guy. He’s not the right person to be able to look after them, to live with them. It’s not compatible with who he really is. And you could argue that Hannibal is just driving him more quickly to come to that realization. So in that sense, it is kind of brutal, tough love. His love is saying, “Know thyself.” Mads: As Hugh is saying, it’s unavoidable. It’s going to happen sooner or later. Might as well happen sooner, before he’s stuck. [Interview http://oh-dr-lecter.tumblr.com/post/129331180920/theyll-say-were-in-love-fangoria-august-2015]

Mads Mikkelsen on ‘Which scene has been the defining moment?'

"Probably one of the moments early on, maybe mid first season, where I spend some quality time in therapy session with Hugh and he’s flying away thinking about something and I have the chance, Hannibal has the chance, to watch him. And he becomes very warm watching him. He sees not only this brilliant person but he sees something he loves. I think that is the definition of Hannibal." [https://twitter.com/noforts/status/1071952333221888000]

Bryan and Hugh discussing Will's motivation in TWOTL at the cliff and beyond (in the commentary to S3):

Hugh: The point was that it wasn't the horror that drove Will to do this, the horror was secondary, it was a horror in reaction to how much he loved what happened between him and Hannibal. We have seen so many moments of Will is covered in blood and shaking and horrified and this moment he suddenly realizes it is his true self.

Bryan: I remember the day you shot the closeups, you both came running to me and I remember Mads was particularly giddy, giddy as a schoolgirl, he said we really went for it, we really went for the love story, we almost kissed and it's all there and you can use it.

Hugh: We had to push in that direction so that there is no point pretending otherwise.

About Bedelia's leg:

Bryan: The false interpretation is she cut her leg which is a crazier version of Bedelia than I understand. Of course the intention is they survived and there are three place settings."

Hugh, answering the question what is happening to Will and Hannibal now: "Let's just say they're on a beach somewhere. [Interviewer] Just chilling on a beach? [Dancy] Yeah, just chilling on a beach. Drinking something out of a coconut."

Also, the reports from people who visited one of the cons mentioned the following."Today at Red Dragon Con it was announced by Mads that Hannibal and Will are now married, have dogs which he calls “the ugly carpets” of the relationship, and live in seclusion for 4 years before hunting together." Regardless of whether it is going to come to fruition or not, this is how Mads imagines Will and Hannibal's life Post Fall.

Mads in May 2018:

"“I think that Hannibal and Will… they’re not really alive without each other. They are a piece of the puzzle for the other one’s soul.”

A great video where Mads talks about Hannibal and his feelings in S2 final.

Question: Was Hannibal suspicious of Will before he smelled Freddie Lounds or was he completely clueless about it at that point?

Mads: Hannibal doesn't have a masterplan. He's living from day to day and he's seeing possibilities and opportunities, and one of them is Will Graham, who he is obviously in love with, in a certain way - that way. But I think at that time, Hannibal has been blinded by Will Graham. He believes truly that he will walk down the path with the light, hand in hand, with Will - and Abigail. That's his dream, that's what he wants, and I think it does surprise him and it does break his heart. It is a turning point for Hannibal when he becomes the cleaning man instead of the man who loves. Until then, he'd been a man full of love, and after that, I think he is... slightly angry. It was a surprise for him. He was tricked.He got blinded by love.

Interesting interview bit:

IGN: Reba’s final scene was another where you got to really pull direct quotes from the book. But here, I was reading it as Will can also be projecting about himself, as he talks about what it might be like to have a serial killer in love with you. Was that in your mind too, given you had these great quotes from the book but that it could definitely be maybe be a bit more of an echo here, given the situation.?

Fuller: Oh, absolutely. It was a great synchronicity of events where everything that Will was saying to Reba in the novel actually applies to Will Graham in the television series. So there was the want of seeing that scene because I haven’t seen it in any of the adaptations where we get to see Reba, post all of this, and have a quiet moment between the two people who were in love with serial killers.

Bryan: "My ship is canon" (https://twitter.com/BryanFuller/status/1072599788581998593)

Bryan about Will and Hannibal's relationship: "Will accepts who Hannibal is. It’s also narcissistic, in the way that we fall in love with people who make us feel better about ourselves and who make us feel like we’re a better version of ourselves. That makes us feel more secure in our bodies, in the dysmorphia of who you are on the inside versus who you project on the outside. That disconnect narrows dramatically when somebody sees you, understands you, accepts you and loves you. It’s transcendent." (http://collider.com/bryan-fuller-hannibal-silence-of-the-lambs-interview/)

Bryan about Will's reasons for jumping, surviving, and attacking Bedelia with Hannibal: "I think one of the reasons it seemed so organic for Will to go over the cliff with Hannibal at the end was that, in his mind, as he understood the universe in his world, he had peaked. It’s also stopping a monster and stopping himself from becoming a monster, but I think part of him was thinking, “That was beautiful. I don’t think I can do that again and feel as high as I do now.” Everything overwhelmed him and he went over that cliff because there was an apex to his experience, in a way that was poetic and dramatic. ... The kind of suicide where somebody jumps off a bridge, part of them hopes they survive and part of them wants to be over. I think a lot of people are hoping for some percentage of survival that may change them because they’re looking for change within themselves. So, I think there was some bit of that. For the ending with Gillian [Anderson], there are two place settings for a reason." (http://collider.com/bryan-fuller-hannibal-silence-of-the-lambs-interview/)

Bryan about Will and Hannibal's relationship in S1: The relationship between Will and Hannibal in this first season is the seduction. It is Hannibal Lecter recognizing in Will Graham for the first time in anyone that he has ever encountered in his life the opportunity for a friendship, a real friendship, because he sees something in Will Graham that he also sees in himself. They are both unique in their crazy. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TzU7O7Q0R5U)

Hugh about the start of Will and Hannibal's relationship: "It’s an instant love between them, it is as if Will met not the best chess player in the world, but the only absolute, the only person he can play with, that enters in the room - or rather, in his life - with a chessboard in hand, and this provokes in him a pleasure and an incredible relief. When we find Will at the beginning of the second season, he was betrayed and thrown in jail, so he is not in a really enviable situation, but the connection he had with Hannibal has remained unchanged, it is something which he can not get rid of. This time, however, he manipulates their connection because Hannibal still needs him and their friendship, but beyond the practical utility must be said that the bond with Hannibal is, even for Will, a source of uncontrolled, involuntary pleasure.”

Mads about the start of relationship: "Hannibal sees an opportunity in this young man. And so he can hopefully, one day, walk hand in hand down the road of life." https://k-s-morgan.tumblr.com/post/187266698258/hannibal-sees-an-opportunity-in-this-young-man

Mads during S1: "When he sees Will, he recognizes himself to a degree. [Hannibal] has empathy, but [he] uses it as a tool; Will has empathy, but he doesn’t know what to do with it. Lecter sees an opportunity to open this man’s eyes and see his full potential realized. And he also sees the opportunity for a friend, which is probably not what he’s had too many of. Even though Hannibal is the puppeteer, he really loves Will." https://screencrush.com/hannibal-lunch-preview/?utm_source=tsmclip&utm_medium=referral

Bryan: "The tricky thing with this show is that it is a story about two men and their relationship. But if it were just about male point of views, it wouldn’t be interesting. I feel like we haven’t done as good of a job, in Season 2, of representing the female characters and their point of view of the world. I think there’s a greater opportunity in Season 3 to do that, and do more of that. In Season 2, we knew the story was about these two guys, and everybody else around them were pawns. Jack Crawford was a pawn. Alana Bloom was a pawn. It was all about what was between Hannibal and Will Graham." https://collider.com/hannibal-season-3-details-filming-europe/

Bryan about S4: I'm still hoping for more Murder Husband adventures!

source: https://www.reddit.com/r/HannibalTV/comments/72bk89/the_story_of_how_hannigram_became_canon_to_those/

12 notes · View notes