#deceit theories

[loganslowdown4]

Today I was thinking about how the dark sides are represented as ‘villains’ because c!Thomas thinks that that side of himself is reprehensible. Like he sees completely in black and white. And because of this, any thought or action that comes from that side is immediately villainized, to the point where they act and even look like cartoon villains.

His point of reference for ‘bad guys’ has always been from his experience with the media he consumes, like cartoons or video games. It’s actually an immature way of looking at himself.

I get the wanting to separate good from bad, and this works for the big moral yes or no questions. But there gets to be a point where we grow up and realize that most instances in our lives have shades of grey answers, which is actually why Janus and Remus are there. We eventually just accept those sides of ourselves as part of us.

And eventually, they become more mellow and we realize they’re just there for self preservation. It’s not selfish to look after yourself if you have to lie about something. We’re not bad because we have intrusive thoughts. Being bothered by them literally shows us what NOT to do. In their way, they are a form of moral compass.

Neither sides are there to make him comfortable, but being comfortable leaves you vulnerable when you need protection. So Janus and Remus aren’t great sides but they aren’t ‘villains’ either, as Thomas sees them. They deserve acceptance just as much as Virgil does, because, like Virgil, they’re working to protect Thomas just as much.

Just some food for thought today! 😁 Also check out the colours in Thomas’ tie whoa 👀🤍🖤

[let-roman-bite-someone]

also did anyone notice the rattlesnake sound at one point when janus was speaking?

has this happened in any of the earlier episodes? it’s really cool and i feel like it should have, but i’m too lazy to go back and check

[fanderstuckin2018]

Okay I loved Deceit, he’s probably my favorite side, but…I never figured out why this song was on his playlist. Hmm, maybe I just need to analyze some more…

[lavender-actualy-posts-shit]

Okay I’m going insane over this.

Logan has stopped smiling over time, right? He’s “Lost his joy” we all know this.

And we all suspect that this is because of the Orange side, yes?

Well what if, now hear me out! I know I’m kinda destroying logicality here, but what if It wasn’t Logan.

No Logan at all. No, this isn’t the Logan we thought we knew..

This is, with the help of Janus, the Orange side disguised as Logan.

And Janus is the only one who knows. Because Janus is in on the plan. Even if he doesn’t want to be…

[will-die-for-janus]

…so we all agree that Remus and Janus wanted Logan to get angry cuz he’s definitely going to become the orange side…we all agree on that?

[camile-leon]

sanders sides

hello the special interest brain rot has hit once more and I’m writing it here because :)

okay so currently for characterizations:

Red “Roman”: Fanciful/Dreams/Passionate Side, However I feel is growing to be more representative of or taking more responsibility for C!Thomas’s Motivations. Presides over Left Arm, Brainstorm Mode, and Summons things very easily. Has a sword. One of the Primary Sides and Colors. Prince of the Imagination. Insecure and working on it. (?) Arc in progress.

Orange “REDACTED”: theorized to be Wrath or some form of Rage, based off of all of the ostrich sized Easter eggs. *See the “See/Speak/Hear” theory below*. Previously seen as the orange fruit (Thomas doesn’t like fruit? 🤔), and possessing Logan’s Eyes as he finished ranting his arc motivations to remus. Notable uses of the color include as text in the SvS redux game, saying “hello” using *upside down calculator* (👀) speak.

Yellow “Janus”: Deceit/Self-Preservation, and recently accepted, or, at the least working hand in hand with patton. Can silence/repress any of the sides, disguise self as any of the sides, and also can summon things when inside the mindscape. Has a shepherds cane. I feel like has a strong or at the least secure ego after being resisted on the mere basis of his presence alone and continuing to offer arguments without giving up. He responded after Roman made fun of his name yes, but like that was fair, and even though it hurt, it did give insight on how much Janus knows about Romans insecurity. Primary color.

Green “Remus”: Intrusive Thoughts, and by extension repressed thoughts?? Can conjure out of the mindscape, cast shadows over vision(?), allergic to soap. Carries a Mace. Duke of the Imagination. Chaos incarnate and ego doesn’t GAF. My theory is, because of the unique connection to repressed thoughts, he can bring out the repressed sides when out of Thomas’s direct consciousness’s “line of sight”. Maybe teams up with Janus for that ability? Idk.

Navy Blue (Dark Blue) “Logan”: Logical Thinking/Rational Thoughts/Local Librarian. Has incredible memory recall and database. Carries or Conjures Flashcards. One of the Primary Sides and Colors. Only side to not reveal own name. Closest contact with the orange side. Wants to use the chemistry degree. Mid Arc. Secure Ego is struggling because of arc.

Light Blue (Cyan) “Patton”: Morality/ the Feelings(??). Head honcho like Joy in Inside Out. Can use Nostalgic/Sensory memory. Can turn into a giant frog when overwhelmed? Possibly a primary color? one of the primary sides. Unstable ego/sense of Thomas’s self.

Purple “Virgil”: previously black color. Anxiety/Fight or Flight. Increases anxiety levels in whoever, eyeshadow levels indicate anxiety, can magnify and multiply voice, can also make things darker. Has built a more secure ego, but is still defensive at times. Pet spider. Theory is that paranoia is old version? Future version? Coexisting part that needs stability which makes sense.

color theory:

complimentary colors- the characters at odds to each other. Red green/Yellow Purple/blue orange. the first two groups don’t like each other like at all. HOWEVER, i think Logan and tangerine would work together??

also, Primary Colors- I think Janus, Logan, and a form of creativity(?) are the oldest. I think it took time before orange, patton, and Virgil were developed. But! I think the creative split happened latest, with remus and Roman being youngest in the group unless patton is cyan in which case I think that uses green so then patton is youngest which is SO FUNNY.

see, hear, speak: ???

Janus= can hide other sides entirely, can silence other sides entirely, I don’t think effects ears directly

Remus= can make other sides quieter? (Could also be just movie making and focus), can make the screen black, I don’t think effects other sides mouths directly.

virgil= can make voice louder/multiply, can make the screen black, I don’t think effects ears directly

orange= effects eyes “blinded with rage”, I don’t know anything else ʅ（◞‿◟）ʃ

now you may be asking why is a primary color getting the perks of the secondary colors?? I don’t know. It’s a darkside thing?? I Guess?? Catholicism!

I love psycho analyzing my faves <3

and this concludes my note to self theory notes.

thank you Thomas sanders for my favorite special interest, giving my therapist an in to understanding/communicating with my brain, and for still sharing all of the fun you bring to content in such a wide variety.

it’s very weird and para social but I would love to give you a hug one day, and to share the PowerPoint I made in middle school as a leadership project based off of you and the sides (of which I saved the very enthusiastic and uninhabited script of a first special interest). I aspire to remain even half as busy as all of your projects. Absolute wildest dreams would be to work with you on a creative project.

does anyone know where to send fanmail? Is it just Twitter?

[bereft-of-frogs]

I really hate that I know exactly why episode 3 pushed me over from 'eh' to 'OH' and about half of that reason we're just going to file under 'path of deceit vibes' and pretend I liked path of deceit a normal amount, and I'm not projecting anything and that doesn't reveal anything about the extremely specific narrative or character types I'm drawn to (mortifying ordeal of being known etc etc)

but the other half of the reason is it has triggered Theory Brain and I CANNOT stop thinking about the possibilities for what really happened the night of the fire but I also don't want to post about them in case I'm totally off base (very possible)

but ARGH I have THEORIES

[janustrash1]

So am I gonna have to be the one to talk about the stress ball?

[justyourtypicaltuesday]

Can Roman Mythology give us insight into who Orange is?

(Note: To minimize confusion, I will be differentiating between historical/mythological figures and their Sanders Sides counterparts by coloring each mention of a Side in their respective color.)

Ever since the fact that three (or four, depending on definition) of the known Sides have names rooted in Roman mythology was brought to my attention, I've been meaning to do my research and explore how this could hint at the next plot point- and given my recent fascination with WTIT, I thought giving my thoughts on Orange theories couldn't hurt.

If you didn't already know, Virgil is named after the famous Roman poet because Joan and Thomas wanted his name to fit with Roman, like Logan and Patton's go together as Logos and Pathos. In addition to this, Remus was named after the Roman myth of Romulus and Remus, in which two princes disagreed on how to found Rome and Romulus had Remus killed. And most intriguing of all, Janus is named after the Roman god of doors, duality, beginnings, transitions and famously has two heads (which the half-human, half-snake face is reminiscent of).

While this is all very intriguing, I started doing research into these Roman myths to explore possibilities for Orange's character. So, I started by looking at other Roman deities closely related to Janus, and two names came up repeatedly, Juno and Diana. Juno is the Roman equivalent of the Greek goddess Hera, and Diana the same for Artemis. Juno and Janus in particular have a strong relationship, often working together to bring in a new month with a new moon. The epithet Juno Covella- to "oversee, help and protect the moon during difficult labors," and that during these rituals Juno "had the function of aiding and strengthening the moon / when her force was supposed to be at its lowest." Additionally, in Virgil's "The Aeneid"; the protagonist Aeneas has to flee Rome because of a storm Juno created. He's led to Carthage, which is historically Rome's sworn enemy, but he starts to grow an attachment to the people there. While the rest of the story (which I've spared for the sake of brevity) may be a concerning parallel to Virgil's character development, the main character having to flee his home for its rival is a dead ringer for his story, and in this comparison, Rome would be the Others. If Rome was home of the Others, Juno would be one of them, and therefore could realistically be a contender for Orange.

Depending on the source, Janus and Diana (sometimes called Jana) are a pair of deities, or Janus is the son of Trivia, an epithet of Diana. Either way, the two are closely linked. Given Diana's equivalent to Artemis, she is associated with hunting and the wild. However, something particularly interesting about Diana is she is sometimes referred to as a "triple goddess" - referring to three aspects of herself. Diana the Huntress, Diana the Moon, and Diana of the Underworld. Virgil often would call Diana by the name Trivia in his works- referring to three-way crossroads. In legends associated with Diana, she is shown to have the power to assign and rearrange authority, and is heavily associated with a woody grove named Lake Nemi. She was even sometimes worshipped as "Diana of the Wood". Given the WTIT endcard completely centred around a tree, this makes for an interesting observation...

And if you think I'm reading too much into things here, maybe you're right. But during this research, I found that Virgil is an anglicization of what was most likely originally Vergilius or Virgilius. This being Virgil's original name would fit with the naming convention of Janus and Remus, and there's evidence Virgil was mocked for his name sounding like virgin. Sound familiar?

"Shouldn't it be something like Virgin?"

I'm not saying that my theories are flawless, or even likely. In fact, Thomas has no obligation to continue the theme of Roman mythology in characterizing the Sides. But given the current pattern, I wanted to take a stab at what a possible Orange inspired by Roman myth could be. And here's my answer:

- Name beginning with C or D to continue the trend of naming each side with a unique letter.

- A "last resort" - a push of energy to get through a difficult, desperate situation.

- A metaphorical hunter, a "tamer of the wild". A calculated aim and precise with delicately honed skill.

- Assigns authority and place. Possibly responsible for assigning the Duke and the Prince, and who is regarded as a Light or Dark Side.

- A guide through difficult crossroads and a bringer of well-meaning change, often in partnership with Janus.

- Symbols of the moon, lakes, trees, and the underworld.

Take what I've said with a pinch of salt, as this is mostly the result of a few Google searches and internet rabbit holes late at night. I am not a historian and I'll never claim to be one, but it doesn't mean I can't have some fun and learn something in the process.

[tsfander]

See no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil, do no evil.

See: Remus, Thomas’s morally corrupt side of Creativity and intrusive thoughts: Forces Thomas to see/realize the truth in many ways. //He can make Thomas see and think things he doesn’t want to see or think//

Hear: Janus, Thomas’s sense of self-preservation, selfishness, and deceit: Forces Thomas to hear things he doesn’t want to hear. //Can pretend to be others to say what needs to be heard//

Speak: Virgil, Thomas’s caution, vigilance, and fight-or-flight/ anxiety: He forces Thomas to be safe by speaking his anxieties. //Speaks differently when overly anxious.//

Do: Orange, the role is unknown: Forces Thomas to do things to better himself in ways that are currently unknown. //Can influence what other sides do//

These sides are not inherently evil, and in my opinion they are the most important sides out of all of them because they force Thomas to better himself by dealing with issues he wouldn’t have otherwise dealt with because they are unpleasant. All of the dark sides, despite their differences, are working together.

Theories where Logan is the Orange side or where parts of Thomas’ identity (mostly logic) are currently splitting like Creativity did or where there are new sub-parts of specific roles are really interesting and fun, but I myself doubt it due to Logan already having his own role and Logan explaining that these things only happen during Thomas’ early development, most likely when his singular identity was still forming.

“At a young age, you filed away products of your imagination as either welcome or forbidden. This led to the development of two separate sides of your creativity.” - Logan in Dealing With Intrusive Thoughts

I don’t think the orange side could be a sub-part of Logic or any other role because these changes cannot happen now that Thomas is an adult and his identity is whole. He has not gone through intense experiences, like trauma, that would change that fact. If parts of what made his singular personality were currently splitting or coming up with sub-parts of themselves, Thomas would most likely have multiple identities that delve into DID territory, which the team had explicitly explained that Thomas did not have because he is one singular identity. It’d just be too complicated and wouldn’t make sense for the current plot. I’m not trying to bash anyones theories!!! This is just why I personally think the Orange side is a completely separate dark side that has always been there from the beginning and is only influencing Logan through unknown means. + Four Wise Monkeys theory

[hdheadcannons]

How do you think Hitoshi would react to meeting the entire cast

Depends.

He might like a few like Bani, Katsu, Hide, Shion, etc.

Might be a fan of Otome since shes a mangaka and its canin her manga is very well known.

Hed be sus of Izanami

And might not like Yumeo and Tomoya

[manosaldibujo]

UNDERVERSE 0.7 HAS ALREADY REACH MORE THAN A MILLION VIEWS!!!

LET’S GO AND GIVE SO MUCH MORE LOVE, IT DESERVES EVERYTHING. GO AND WATCH UNDERVERSE 0.7!!! —> 💜

[fanderstuckin2018]

Another one!!

A PsychoAnalysis of Virgil Sanders’ Playlist

There is an EXTREME theme in most of Virgil's songs of growing apart from someone. Like I'm talking heavy themes of a messy falling out, and I think we all know what its referencing. But I'll save that to the end. Here's the songs analysis!

Theres a lot of emotions connected with the collapse of a relationship, and its demonstrated so in SO MANY of his songs, so I'll color-code it to make sense. Blue is sadness and regret, red is anger and frustration, yellow is relief. Keep in mind that these arent all the songs, just the ones that most support my theory/analysis.

Sally's Song: talks about being unable to be with someone romantically because of the lack of acknowledgement towards the singer. "What will become of my dear friend? Where will his actions lead us then?" It's mournful of the loss of connection that the singer once had with the subject of the song, like they're longing for it back. Yes ik this song was maybe just added because he likes Nightmare Before Christmas, but it fits into this theme quite well...

It Ends Tonight: Talking about ending a relationship, cutting someone off very messily. "Maybe it's best you leave me alone", "Now I'm on my own side/It's better than being on your side". Despite being more heated, I'd say this can also be a song of relief due to the lyric "a weight is lifted from my chest". ALSO the "darkness turns to light" lyric can directly reference Virgil, and how he essentially "transformed" from being a Dark Side to a Light Side over the course of his character arc.

I'd Hate to Be You When People Find Out What This Song is About: bro this one is RIPE with themes of fall out, as well as regret. The singer seems to have had a hand in this messy breakup or fall out with the subject of the song, and seems resentful of themself for it. "When I asked you/Believe me/You never let go/But I let go". They are conscious of their role in ruining this relationship, and seem to place most of the blame on themselves for it. "And now you're trying desperately/But I'm tongue tied and terrified of what I'll say" implies that they seem to want to get back with whoever they pushed away, but are too afraid of repeating the past to actually reconcile.

A Decade Under the Influence: this song seems to be about friend group issues. There's hints of good memories "You kept still until the long drive home/You slept safe and close to the window", and yet theres the underlying anxiety of "I got a bad feeling about this". Then there's the whole "To hell with you and all your friends" that repeats consistently throughout the song, as well as the lyric "I thought it through and my worst brings out the best in you" making me believe that the singer was probably the butt of the jokes or the most "replaceable" one within the friend group. I hesitate to categorize this song as "angry or frustrated" because it sounds more anxious and paranoid, but can also fall under relief with the context we have of Virgil's story; relief that he doesn't feel that way anymore.

I'm Not Okay: okay I get it this song was put on his playlist cause "haha Virgil emo" but I'm serious it also falls under this theme quite directly. And yes, its regret out of everything. "I never want to let you down/Or have you go, it's better off this way"; despite the singer not wanting their subject to be cut out of their life, its obvious they know its beneficial for both parties. There's a bit of relief as well as regret. I think this can also go along with Influence's themes of being the scapegoat of a friend group, because of the lyrics "forget about the dirty looks" and "You sing the words but don't know what it means/To be a joke".

Thnks Fr th Mmrs: Okay this one is my personal fav, I think Fallout Boy slaps. Anywasy, this song can be both heatedly passionate and relief, but I believe it better fits under relief. It seems like this event that happened is far enough in the past that the singer has come to terms with it. Specifically with the line "One night and one more time/Thanks for the memories/Even though they weren't so great". This can also be taken as sarcastically rather than genuine, and I think both fit Virgil's character well. The singer understands that what has happened has happened, and there's no way to change the past "I'm looking forward to the future." However, they still feel weighed down because of it "And this crystal ball/It's always cloudy except for/When you look into the past."

Ignorance: AAHHH THIS ONE IS MY ALL TIME FAV THANK YOU VIRGIL FOR INTRODUCING ME TO PARAMORE. Ahem. Okay. So I referenced this song in like my first post to this blog, but I think it's VERY obvious what Side this song refers to. I mean, take a guess: "Where's your gavel? Your jury?/What's my offense this time?", "The same tricks that, that once fooled me/They won't get you anywhere/I'm not the same kid from your memory", "Ignorance is your new best friend". Yeah this song is aimed towards Deceit/Janus 100%. This is a very anger-powered song and its clear that the singer holds immense hatred towards the subject. Deceit I believe is the best contender for this because of the entirety of SvS ("Where's your gavel? Your jury?"), and also because "ignorance" is something very intertwined to Deceit's character and his motivations. When we first meet him, one ofthe first things he says as himself is "what you don't know can't hurt you," which is a different way of saying "ignorance is bliss." Thus, "ignorance is your best friend". There's also references to the singer's past relationship with the subject, and it can be inferred that it was positive in some aspects, but ended up being toxic and repressing to them, thus why they left; "Yeah, we used to stick together/We wrote our names in blood/But I guess you can't accept that the change is good." I could go on and on about this song, but I think I've made my point.

The Ice is Getting Thinner: hooh boy. This one makes me sad. This song is about a relationship slowly dying, but both parties holding on to the relationship without really trying to salvage it. It seems that "change" was once again the reason for this drifting apart ("We're not the same, dear, as we used to be/The seasons have changed and so have we".) It's longing, just like Sally's Song, longing for how things used to be, even if what "used to be" wasn't healthy or beneficial for both parties; "it saddens me to say/But we both know, well, it's true/That the ice was getting thinner/Under me and you." It sounds almost like they are coming to a realization and acceptance of this.

OKAY SONG ANALYSIS DONE, HOW DOES THIS RELATE TO VIRGIL??

Well I think thats obvious. He's being eat up by these swarming emotions that surround his leaving of the Dark Sides. The fact that these make up 8 out of the 20 songs (and many more can be connected back to this theme of relationship fallout!) shows that it's been on his mind for a long time. If we go off of the implications of these songs, it seems that Virgil himself realizes that his leaving the Dark Sides was seen as some sort of betrayal, no matter the circumstances. He blames himself, he blames Janus, he's angry about their fall out but he also is relieved by it. No matter what happened, I believe that these feelings are going to come to a head one way or another. He needs to confront his past, and it seems that he wants to, but is also held back by his own anxiety over the situation (and his anxiety in general.) There's so much tension between him and Deceit/Janus specifically that is just bubbling beneath the surface that probably is going to erupt some time in the future and will drive a rift even further between the Light and Dark sides. In what way? I don't know....

~

hope you enjoyed :) virgil's playlist is my favorite out of all of the sides' and thats partially because I was an emo when it released HAHAH. I'm thinking of doing deceit's next, cause hes my fav character, and i just think its fitting lol. i also might redo roman's psychoanalysis bc i literally did that last night at midnight and I wanna add more evidence and direct quotes. im a nerd...i like writing essays XD

@thatsthat24 what do u think man did i do a good job 👀

[cheesecakemermaid1048]

It seems that Yumeo knows Tomaya's sister, Chion, on a personal level. Either that or he greatly admires her work

 I am leaning toward the first one. It is possible they could have known each other as co-workers beforehand. If that's the case, it's not a surprise that Chion doesn't know him.

If you remember memories of her talent were erased.It wouldnt be the stretch, she would also forget the people she met while doing her work.

If I am right,that will make what Chion said about Yumeo bittersweet.He probably realized in meeting her again,she has no memories  of him,so he kept his mouth shut in order not to confuse her more.

Side notes:

Chou is already my favorite. She seems plain to me at first but now knowing she can kick ass.She is my favorite now

[numberoneanika]

uhhh hey guys here's my crack mastermind theory. no real spoilers but under cut nonetheless

okay so you know those little title things they have under the characters? like satoru has "sapere aude" tomoya has "drifting innocence" chou has "fleeting butterfly" etc. etc.

so

hes the only guy

i have more reasoning but ill do it later whatever

[logically-asexual]

also the idea of this last fic i posted is like. deeper than just “logan disguises as virgil and let’s see what happens”

like when virgil ducked out it was pretty much just a device that was possible within the canon of the show to allow the story to unfold and for thomas to explore the positives of anxiety. but it’s not something that just happens in real life. or i don’t know. maybe there’s times that you block out an emotion so much and are so deep into the repression and denial that you can think that you don’t have it but that’s not likely and probably not what they were trying to portray. evidenced by how when they ask “that’s something you can do?” logan responds “for this video, i guess.”

but deceit disguising as patton is something very clever because you can see it as more than just the characters. you can see thomas defending himself from the shame of lying by disguising his motives. the method is the lie but when patton proposes it the motive is concern for a friend’s feelings, which thomas might consider a good enough motive. however if janus proposes it the motive is selfishness and self preservation, which thomas absolutely isn’t open to.

so logan isn’t heard as logic because his propositions are taken as some. strict instructions coming from a stern serious person who thomas almost doesn’t identify with. logan disguising an idea as coming from anxiety instead of The Teacher means more than just “logan dresses up as virgil”. it reflects a probably maladaptive response that many with executive dysfunction have, where you can only get things done when the deadline is pressuring you and panic is the only thing that fuels you. you can only make yourself something you’d consider otherwise boring or stressing when you frighten yourself into doing it with threats of missing the deadline, wasting time, ruining your future, etc etc.

i just wanted to point out that i just. really like this concept as part of thomas’s journey of distancing himself from the serious, teacher side of his personality. he will still need to do something’s that are usually this side’s responsibility, but they wouldn’t get done if the impulse doesn’t come from a place within himself he listens to and considers important.