#dc sucks with characterization

[wanderingmind867]

I don't like making shipping posts often (as a recent rambly post of mine can attest to), but this post has to be made. Point Blank: it's harder to find good ships with DC comics, I think. Besides Barry Allen x Hal Jordan, there's very few ships I see lots of support or proof of. Marvel had lots of possible ships, though. And do you know why? It's because their characters aren't cardboard cutouts! The Avengers are all super distinct! The Justice League feels kind of generic sometimes. Marvel just cracked the characterization code quicker.

Think about it. Look at the X-Men vs The Teen Titans. The X-Men were all so distinct. Within three or four Issues, you're gonna know enough about each x-men member for them all to be distinct. I'm currently in Issue #15 of the Teen Titans, and so far I still see no differences between Aqualad and Kid Flash! The Teen Titans only had four or five main characters, but only Robin, Wonder Girl and maybe Speedy come off as super distinct. Kid Flash and Aqualad feel like the same character sometimes! It's infuriating! Marvel never had this problem! I could probably tell Cyclops from Iceman nd Angel from Beast instantly. I know Hawkeye from Hank Pym, and Tony Stark from Reed Richards. That's why ships with Marvel characters work so well! They're all so distinct that you never have to worry about confusing one character for another! Angel x Iceman, Quicksilver x Hawkeye, Vision x Scarlet Witch, Thor x Iron Man, Reed Richards x Sue Storm, Quicksilver x Cyclops, they all just work!

But I can't really tell Ray Palmer from Barry Allen or Garth from Wally West! DC doesn't understand how to nail characterization, and it always shows. Always, always, always. And I hate it. No wonder I can't seem to find many good ships for the original Teen Titans. If it doesn't involve Dick Grayson in some way, the original Teen Titans don't have to have that many ships. What about Garth x Roy? Wally x Garth? Wally x Roy!? Nothing. I'm speaking hyperbolically, but you get the point. It's unfair to DC's characters. I want more attention on the characters DC wrote off as bland! Give it back to me!

[cyanide-sippy-cup]

Whoever decided to put the Batfam member who's supposed to come from a dark place in life and understands how slippery the slope really is when it comes to falling into crime in the fucking Kite Man show and have her mindlessly impale a guy should be slapped. Once for making a Kite Man show and once for Steph.

Like she's not above killing people. She's not like Bruce who refuses to take a life ever. She'd blow the Joker's fucking head off if given the chance. But she's supposed to understand the regular dudes. She understands the importance of a life. She knows that guy's probably got family at home, or at least deserves to be given a chance. It took a long time before anybody gave her a chance, she knows how hard it is in that life.

Then again it's a spinoff of the Harley Quinn show so what did I expect.

[martyrbat]

for when dc releases a new comic that mischaracterizes him again AND the humiliating ordeal of telling ppl that arent your mutuals that bruce fucking wayne aka mr cashcow is your favorite character

[lygma-nygma]

The genuine struggle of being a Riddler fan when all three of his most popular incarnations are different levels of deeply ooc for completely different reasons and you find all three insufferable but they're his most talked about because they're the only non-comic versions of him that aren't Jim Carrey, in three episodes of an animated series, or made of lego. You still reblog stuff about the ones you don't like though because the art is nice but god damn does it ache a little.

[kittykatninja321]

Much to think about…

[pablohunie1993]

i could watch tom taylor read every single issue of hellblazer live in person and i still wouldn't believe he's read it

[cyatzura]

i am a real hater about this like the fanonization of characters has been rampant for years but then that part of the fandom was rewarded with the wfa webtoon and it's popular so ofc they would try cash in on other parts of the fandom so we got this abomination

[daydreamerdrew]

Lazarus Planet: Revenge of the Gods (2023) #2

[lazaruspiss]

oh and there better not be another nightwing pride variant. like either commit to making him queer or stop including him in queer lineups. its bad for my heart :(

[robinverse]

The chad “I don’t see myself as a father figure but I think i can make a difference in his life” Bruce Wayne vs the virgin “I didn’t have a good childhood so why should he?” Bruce Wayne

First Panel - Batman: Dark Victory #9

Second Panel - Robin & Batman #2

[ikeep-forgetting-mypass]

I'm gonna go on a bit of a rant here (again) (this is gonna be a bit over the place, I'm awful at actually putting my brain down lol)

While I'm a fan of power scaling and 'who would win's?', one thing I really, really hate is when superman is brought into the question, or Batman as well.

Why I hate it is because how boring they are in these. Superman immediately wins, Batman immediately wins because 'prep time' or because 'it's superman.'

And I get it, Superman is literally 'That Guy' for DC, I do. But because of how overpowered he is, and because of dudebros, it immediately makes any fight with him so fucking boring because he won't struggle. He won't have to make an effort, he'll just one shot them blah blah blah.

It's why so many people don't like Superman, because he's been portrayed as a god, unfeeling and simply a tool for people to say, 'he sweeps' without explaining why or how he wins, which would at least make it a bit interesting. When Clark is written well, I;E as someone who actually has emotions, people get surprised because of how deeply their characters have been butchered.

(Batman using guns and abusing his kids, Superman seeing himself as above humanity. These two get their characters massacred the worst out of everyone and it sucks.)

What makes fights between powerful characters entertaining and fun is HOW they fight each other.

How do they counter attacks? How do they injure each other? How do they dodge each other's attacks? How do they use their surroundings and terrain, their intelligence and tools? That's what makes it interesting.

To just summarize a fight with "oh he just flicks a finger and the other guy explodes that's it" like. No. That's not an interesting fight, a shameful way of writing a fight.

It's why I avoid anything regarding battles between Supes or Hulk, of Saitama, or Goku, not just because the comments will be utterly insufferable, but because I know it's going to bore me out of my mind. Especially when they act like the other character isn't powerful, and is just some weakling.

With Batman, I hate Batgod.

Batman is a human. Peak human, incredibly intelligent and a damn invaluable fighter, but still human. I hate it, when people just say he wins bc 'prep time', especially if he's fighting a powerful character for the first time, you can't prepare for the first encounter that happens in a death battle.

I like seeing characters struggle during battles, I like it when they put effort in. I like it when they have weaknesses and aren't just a flat character of 'oh he's unbeatable' with no other defining features.

The best stories with them are when they're struggling, mentally or physically, when they have to test their beliefs and their physicality.

TLDR: learn how to write creative fight scenes using elements from their characters and not just how hard they can punch for the love of fucking god if this keeps happening I'm going to shoot every fight scene creator istf-

[newgraywolf]

So, I lied, apparently the brain worms are too strong, So here’s part 2! Same as last time, I’m on Mobile, and I’m sure there are many errors/mistakes, please tel me and I will edit it once I can!

Red Hood was having a bad life day. First, he has to deal with Bruce (he was supposed to protect him, save him, save everyone) trying to get him to come visit (as if he doesn't want to, but he can't, not until He's dead not until he (they,she,he,it ) had vengeance).

But then he has to deal with Replacement (his brother, (Their King, the Ruler, will he help them, can their revenge finally come?) And he just can't calm down! He can never be calm while He's still alive!

He can barely even remember what he was saying, and looking back at his helmet footage his voice doesn't even sound human sometimes, and some of his words seem to be, different (why can nobody hear me,him,her,them, why, why, why, someone please listen, someone help us).

But he does remember one moment, in the middle of his rant he, he felt calm, content, almost relaxed for the first time in years (for the first time since he (They,she,he,it) died).

But then he noticed something, barely noticeable. When he looked at Tim's shadow, he noticed it seemed a little different, a little off in a way he just couldn't quite seem to grasp, but then he noticed it reaching out to his shadow and his shadow, seemed to move too? Despite the fact that neither Tim nor himself moved.

And then he looked at his shadow and squinted his eyes, he swore he saw a crown with flames made of shadows and a small ring on its hand as it reached over. And when their shadows seemed to clasp hands, and he swore he saw a flash of Lazarus Green come from Tim's shadow, and it seemed to be a little more solid, the flames on the crown grew a little, and when that happened, he seemed to feel. Content (Their king, protector, Ruler, savior, has promised, he will help us, he will avenge us).

Jason knew one thing was sure, he would need to tell Bruce about this. Maybe he could come over to the Manor, he didn't feel quite so angry anymore.

Short DPXDC Prompts #809

Danny is extremely weak and injured and he really hates overshadowing people. He does the next best thing: takes over the shadow of a person. Unknowingly, Danny just possessed the shadow of Red Robin.

[frownyalfred]

Hi. I'm not a canon purist and enjoy some fanon content very much, but I do think people in the fandom should at least familiarize themselves with the canon content and source material. It's easier to break the "rules" so to speak and experiment with canon when you know what that actually is. I've noticed a lot of fans that are only familiar with fanon criticise content that doesn't line up with what they believe to be canon but isn't. The Red Hood for example. I've seen writers who portray him as the violent criminal he is in much of the canon be completely decimated by Jason fans who only know fanon and the retconned version of Red Hood and completely deny canon even exists and refuse to even glance at the comics. Transformative works are important and playing in the sandbox is for everyone but fandom literally cannot exist without canon. Canon is important and people can do whatever they want with it but they should respect it enough to at least look at it.

Hi anon, I'm going to hold your hand as I say this, and I will say it as gently as I can: This is still a form of canon purism.

We can absolutely agree that readers shouldn't berate or abuse writers for how they choose to portray characters in fic, whether that's a more canon-faithful characterization or a popular fanon version. If readers don't like how a character is portrayed, we should encourage them to hit the back button instead.

I want to draw your attention to some of the words you used in your ask above: "should" "respect" "decimated" etc. Those are some strong words to describe how you think people need to behave, in order to exist in fandom. Of course, there is no fandom without canon source material -- I'm not denying that. But with such a wide and varied canon, the DC fandom has examples of the Red Hood you mention above, AND the "retconned" version you also reference. Both are canon, as in actually, officially, canon. WFA is canon, and that Red Hood looks very different from the Red Hood you describe.

Now, I think your issue is that you enjoy a certain version of canon, and you're frustrated that the fandom doesn't also, as trends ebb and flow, enjoy that canon as much as you do. Again, I want to acknowledge that just because a certain version is popular, it doesn't give folks the right to berate authors for writing a different version. But again, I don't think that's what we're really talking about here. From your ask's tone, I think you're suggesting that people should, in order to participate in fandom, read that older canon, that different version, or as you say, "glance at it" before enjoying or writing the fanon version.

Guess what? They actually, really, really, don't have to. It sounds like you have some issues with judging your fellow fandom members who don't read what you do or reference certain canon. But the magic of this fandom is, you can enter it at any point. We're a big pool, and if someone's entry point is the Lego Batman movie and that's it, that's still valid.

Fandom stems from canon, yes, but I almost never hear people talk about movies, or web comics, or other media when they talk about "required reading." It's always a comic. I really wish people would reflect on that before suggesting it as the one true path to being a fan.

The other thing I don't see asks like these reference ever is the reality that sometimes a fandom outstrips its canon material, and that that's an eventuality in some spaces. Fanon interpretations become popular, and people write about those specific characterizations or scenarios. They ebb and flow, like I mentioned, and some are more canon-faithful than others. Some completely reject canon, and again -- it's still fandom. It doesn't make it better or worse than a more canon-faithful fic. It's just different.

I had a couple asks about this topic a few weeks ago, and I'm assuming you haven't read those or you likely wouldn't have sent me this ask. But in them, I discuss how sometimes we need to suck it up and be unhappy that canon-faithful fics aren't as popular in a fandom at a specific time, and stop punishing fellow fans for writing and enjoying those fics. And we really need to stop shitting on them publicly on Tumblr.

Because often, what you're really saying is that you wish more people would write more canon-faithful fics, and stop writing ones about fanon topics you don't enjoy or think are accurate. And to that, I again say, there is nothing you can or should do to change that behavior from others. If you want to read it, write it, enjoy it, etc, do it yourself. Build the comic-faithful community here, write fics and promote challenges, create a discord channel and discuss your "required reading" there.

We are all writing and reading fanfiction at the end of the day. It is a great equalizer in many ways. My silly Lego Batman fic is just as valid as a canon-faithful rewrite of a certain Batman issue. One is not better than the other, or more deserving of respect. You will never get me to admit otherwise on this blog.

tl;dr: people should absolutely not berate authors who choose to write canon-faithful characterizations. however, there are layers of judgement and disdain many DC comics canon-faithful authors/readers have for their fellow fans that I think we need to examine critically in order to coexist respectfully.

[bitterrobin]

you, batman/batfamily fan, can you be normal about parents and their flaws without making them exaggerated abusers?

can you absorb the fact that Jack and Janet Drake were not perfect parents, but they still loved Tim? and that Tim loved them enough that he tried to tear a razor sharp boomerang out of his father's corpse with his bare hands? that the Drakes were not millionaires who forced high society values onto their son for the sake of a public image? (that they weren't even rich for that long of a time?)

can you be normal about how the deep recesses of poverty affect a family unit while allowing a parent nuance? can you write Willis Todd without making him a classist caricature of an abuser? can you write Catherine Todd and Crystal Brown without portraying their drug addictions as fodder for their children's whump? (I added in Crystal bc she canonically suffered from drug addiction, but I haven't seen much of her in fics tbh)

can you accept that as much an abuser David Cain was, he still loved Cassandra enough that he utterly fell apart when she left him? That he was genuinely astonished/proud of her when she spoke to him for the first time even as she threatened him? he still sucks majorly, but you can't deny that he loved her. that's what makes their relationship so painful.

can you be normal about Talia al Ghul? can you write her without making her an ooc rapist or child abuser or cold dragon lady? can you acknowledge that every ounce of her characterization surrounding Damian is vastly different from her original pre-Morrison personality to the extent that og Talia would never even have a child in the League?

can you pick apart when a parents portrayal is out of character, that a writer made them hit or neglect their child because above all else they exist for drama and action? that you can find DC characters who actually had traumatic childhoods instead of grafting them onto a Bat-character? (> this last sentence is mostly about Tim btw)

Exploring a character's parents and how they affected them is always interesting, but I've seen fics that genuinely steer towards character assassination rather than an exploration of events written in the comics. They exaggerate a parent's portrayal not to write about a complicated parent-child dynamic but so they can have Bruce or Jason rushing in to comfort them (yes, this is about the Tim Drake shrimp fic). Idk, I think most of my ire just stems from the fact that content about Mia Dearden or Todd Rice or Grant Emerson aren't widespread, Mia specifically always gets explored in Bat-circles as someone that just adds to Jason's character rather than analyzing her on her own, in addition to the constant hell that Talia goes through in both canon and fanon.

[artbyblastweave]

🔥 Textually "political" superheroes, ala Green Arrow being a leftist and Flash being a conservative, Bastion being cancelled, etc.

Rapid-firing your specific examples- half the fun of Green Arrow is the tension between his leftism and his absurdly privileged status as a billionaire superhero. I wasn't actually aware Flash is a quote-unquote conservative- I'm assuming this came up in that godawful comic that tried to map out how the League would vote in the 08 election- but honestly this is kind of a "he's a white midwestern cop" moment, I feel like the politics associated with his job are always a little bit of an elephant in the room for the Flash Fandom. Bastion is his own post I've been meaning to make for a while, but the short version is that Bastion is a really, really funny dark comedy beat, if you choose to apply that lens.

Circling back to the Flash specifically, though- I get the sense these days that big-two superheroes are rarely characterized as meaningfully politically conservative, in the quotidian manner in which many, many real life people are. I certainly get why they shy away from that, I'm not saying that I want them to pick a couple leaguers who seem like The Type and have them start flying Gadsden flags, I'm just saying it has a certain impact on the verisimilitude of the setting when nobody on these teams has the generically shitty politics of that coworker you roll your eyes at or the Uncle you dread seeing at Thanksgiving. I think it was Memecucker that had a post a couple years ago about how you probably couldn't get away with anything analogous to that thing they once did where Hal Jordan was expressly racist as a character flaw that he had to overcome- you probably aren't gonna get an A-lister who's transphobic and has to be taught the error of their ways, for example. I'm not entirely certain how true that is- pretty true in my reading experience, but then again, there are a lot of comics, so maybe someone took a swing at that hornets nest and I just missed it and I've been talking out my ass for about 800 words.

(I did hear rumblings that they tried to do like, a coming-out-to-tepidly-accepting-parents metaphor with Franklin being a mutant during the Krakoa thing? I don't recall people talking about that beat in a positve light, which makes sense. "Have you tried not being a mutant" has always been a fraught analogy no matter which group is being referenced.)

Anyway my final takeaway is that indie cape things, by virtue of not having to keep everyone in their casts sympathetic and marketable in perpetuity, generally have way more leeway to depict superhero communities with a much wider spread of (potentially horrific) personal politics. Bastion being an example of that- if he showed up in Marvel or DC, he'd be, like, a bit character who shows up in a two-shot issue to get demolished or shown-up by Actual Superheroes (tm) but in Worm? Nope. There's no decades-long protagonist like Spider-Man or Batman through whose lens we view this setting by default. Bastion's as much a superhero as anyone else we've met, he's exactly as real, weighted exactly as much as the rest of them. And he sucks.

[jayladfanpage]

what jason ships are you partial to? reasonings and silly musings would be fun to hear as well :) My personal fav is jaykyle !

To be entirely honest, there's very few Jason ships I outright dislike, those being Jaymia, Jaytim, Jaydick (no real reasoning behind this one, it just icks me), and Jaykara. Everything else I can at least partially get behind. My FAVORITES, though...

Jayde/Sladejay is a big one. I'm obsessed with Jason dating older men and I do see Jason, at least in his villain era, appreciating the fact that Slade respects his methods and his ideology. Slade himself has a lot of hard-set morals and a deep, obsessive love for his family despite causing them nothing but pain, which sounds like a certain Gotham vigilante I know. Also, we all know Slade likes them younger. (Even though that's really bad characterization, it's still funny, so whatever) and I do see them genuinely making each other "better" in that villain power couple way. They wouldn't make each other good people, but they could make each other happy and content and fix their emotional cravings together.

Another big one is JayKyle as well! They're just so toxic and messy I fucking adore them. The epitome of "If we hate each other enough this might work." Both of them need to get dicked down good in order to shut up and the other is more than willing to do it. Jason being completely isolated when he was a hero vs Kyle being introduced to so many heroes at once it's hard for him to forge genuine connections with most of them in the beginning. Both endlesly getting compared to their better, more loveable predecessor. I'm insane

... Jayroy. And I'm not sorry about it. Obviously if you’ve seen my ao3 you're aware of how much I just adore them but. ARGH THEY MAKE ME INSANE. Part of this is because RHaTO was my first DC comic and I'll always be at least a little emotionally attached to it, for all that it sucks ass. Also, I do thing that Roy "Savior Complex" Harper would obsess over the idea of fixing Jason -- especially since Lian had just died when they formed the Outlaws in my timeline. I also think Jason would help Roy with his rampant abandonment issues ( @royboyfanpage has some great posts about that if you're interested) due to how unwilling he is to let go of people, RHaTO characterization notwithstanding. And I just think Roy Harper is really fucking hot and Jason deserves a kind, stern dilf with long hair

You may notice that none of these answers include women and that's because Jason's kind of a dick to most women he interacts with. I am excited to see where JayRose goes though!