#daemyra and GRRM

[lanaisdoe]

^ THIS

Matt Smith stating that Daemon loves Rhaenyra multiple times and when asked again this summer while shooting season two who Daemon loved the most. He answered with ‘Rhaenyra’

Ryan Condal - ‘He loves his family, particularly loves Rhaenyra.’ And also stating on another occasion that Rhaenyra is the woman that Daemon actually loves.

Geeta Patel saying that the entire production discussed it and wanted to show that daemyra are deeply in love with eachother, and called their love sexier then sex.

Even Sara Hess who hates Daemon admitted that Daemon and Rhaenyra belonged together.

GRRM himself said not too long ago that Daemyra is one of his favourite things about Daemon.

I could go on and on with more examples, yet I’m supposed to take random online users with nothing but headcanons and self inserting for their ship’s opinion seriously when they say that Daemon doesn’t love Rhaenyra? Be ever so serious.

[spacerockfloater]

hi! i noticed you learnt about what ryan condal said regarding blood and cheese. it was…something. i would like to know your thoughts on the matter. though it would be completely understandable if you need sometime to gather them together or if you would rather not at all! thank you and bye!

Hello beloved, thank you so much for asking me! I’d love to share my opinion!

If anyone’s wondering, @rhaenelle is referring to this interview where Ryan Condal essentially says he believes that Blood & Cheese’s brutality and heinousness was exaggerated by the Greens in a propagandistic attempt to convince their subjects that Rhaenyra and Daemon are the worst villains ever born, hence why he toned the event down; to show us what he thinks is the accurate version of Jaehaerys’ murder.

Now, I am aware that Condal had already warned us that HOTD was going to be a feminist retelling of the events of F&B, which practically means that his plan has always been to whitewash the everlasting fuck out of Rhaenyra. So what do I think about this?

Well, for starters, I think that Ryan Condal is an excellent businessman. He knows what kind of tropes are going to make the audience engage with his show. He understands that people need a hero to cheer for and a villain to hate, therefore he removed the moral ambiguity from all of the characters and divided them into two categories: the Blacks, enlightened revolutionaries full of passion, deserving of admiration and correct in everything they do, and the Greens, pious fools with a moral superiority complex who are stack in the ways of the past and commit despicable crimes. The average viewer does not possess the intelligence to comprehend that both parties have their good and bad moments, and that they’re both correct in fighting for what each believes is rightfully theirs. Simultaneously, he benefits from the modern trends that want women in media to take revenge when they are wronged and emerge as triumphant girlbosses, because of course a white upper class woman’s suffering in a western world (or Westeros) society has everything to do with her gender and nothing to do with her personality or decisions (even if this works solely for Rhaenyra, because Alicent seems to be held accountable for every single one of her actions). Finally, it is obvious that Condal is trying to appease disgruntled Daenerys fans, so he has rebuilt Rhaenyra into this tortured martyr that wishes to change the world for the better in an attempt to make her resemble her great granddaughter six times removed.

For all of these reasons, I find it very logical that he is going out of his way to minimise the tragedy the Greens experience. It just doesn’t make Rhaenyra look good and honestly, who wants that? The producers saw how unhappy Danny’s stans were when they made her lose her shit; they’re not going to make the same mistake twice. They don’t want their show to tank like the last season of GOT did, so they’ll do everything in their power to keep the audience happy. And it’s working! What’s the last thing Condal says in this clip? “You kinda start rooting for [Blood and Cheese]!” and boy oh boy, the TB stans sure do! Literally hundreds of memes that rejoiced at Jaehaerys’ death were posted on X this week, with tens of thousands of likes. But when Lucerys died, it was presented as the most foul thing to ever happen in the ASOIAF universe. It is the TB supporters that dictate which child murder is good and which is bad, and that decision usually depends on which child came out Rhaenyra’s womb, not let’s say, the fact that one kid was a toddler that could barely walk, while the other was a teenager that laughed at the disabled person he mutilated himself.

It’s all just marketing

That being said, I want to clarify that I understand why Condal and the HOTD producers do what they do, but being a good entrepreneur does not necessarily make you a literary genius. Now, I’m not gonna explain why stripping Rhaenyra off of every character trait that made her interesting is a bad decision and that in their attempt to remove the blame from her so that they can elevate her as this righteous patron of feminism, they’re accidentally removing all of her agency and turning her simply into a victim, because I have a whole blog dedicated to that. But let’s just say that presenting Rhaenyra as this sexually liberated idol that’s incapable of evil, when in fact she’s an entitled aristocrat who’s completely at the mercy of men around her, from her father to her husbuncle, is the most performative activism move ever pulled in recent TV history, as well as pushing the narrative that Alicent suffers from internalised misogyny because duh, a woman can only be good and a feminist if she supports Rhaenyra, not when she pursues her own interests.

Ultimately, I think we just have to accept that this show is not meant for TG fans. We are not going to find any satisfaction in it. Everything that was unique and admirable about the Greens in the book has vanished. Their family dynamic is fucked up, Alicent’s children hate her, Aegon and Halaena cannot stand one another, Alicent is constantly a victim and never someone that chases her own ambitions, Halaena is very vague, Aemond appears to be more angsty than angry, Aegon is a stupid rapist, Jaehaerys’ death was turned into a mockery, Alicole was weaponised in order to make us shit on Alicent and Criston even more and so on. This show barely caters to us because we’re not making them any money.

The reason that there are more TB than TG stans is because (I’m gonna get so much fucking hate for this) most people who watch TV are fucking morons. I swear, when F&B came out 6 years ago, no one gave a flying fuck about Rhaenyra, because we all understood that everyone involved in the Dance of the Dragons was fucked up in their own way and that the message of this story, just like the general message of ASOIAF, is that nobody deserves to sit on that fucking throne. We were all in agreement about that. But then this fucking show came along and all the oblivious simpletons that swallowed whatever the producers shoved down their throats, grabbed the book and decided that “Woah, this book is obviously a critique on patriarchy and Rhaenyra is obviously the victim of the story”! As if GRRM, the man who said that he doesn’t sit down and think “Oh, I’m going to write a woman now” but instead he believes women to be people just like men, with complex personalities, would ever do that. And they just can’t believe that it is possible for book!Rhaenyra to be an evil racist classist full of entitlement! Surely it must be because the Greens are rewriting history! There’s no way GRRM, the man that created Cersei fucking Lannister, would ever make a female character that’s vicious and crazy just because she feels like it! Y’all need to sit down for a moment. I say this as a radical feminist that supports the 4B movement: you’re projecting your own ideas onto George’s work. Not all the media we consume has to reflect our ideologies, but if you think that it has to, then this book isn’t the anti misogynistic masterpiece you wish it was.

Like, when it comes to F&B, I am firmly anti Targaryen and did not wish for any side to win. I wanted them all wiped out to be honest. But when it comes to HOTD, I’m TG basically out of spite at this point.

All in all, I just think that things are going to go downhill for us from this point on. They’ll just keep glorifying the Blacks until the very end.

[lady-corrine]

Daemon did not love Rhaenyra truthers found dead in a ditch once again. 🫶🏻

[lanaisdoe]

^THIS. Yes. For me, the moment Daemon's all joyful when he receives the letter from Rhaenyra and then all devastated when he sees what's written there combined with his words (never blaming Rhaenyra, not getting angry at Rhaenyra, not being scared or shocked, just being devastated, resigned, broken...), him feeling no guilt at all, just the weight too heavy to be borne, then just letting Nettles go and afterwards setting off for a suicide mission to destroy what he believes to be the last thing standing between his wife and their goal–for Rhaenyra and their children– to prove his absolute devotion to her one last time– well, to me THAT has always been the greatest proof of his undying love for Rhaenyra and Nettles being his daughter/daughter figure.

Someone once said "Daemon simply couldn't live in a world in which Rhaenyra didn't trust him" - and that is how it's always felt to me... His devotion to Rhaenyra and their family was absolute...

And GRRM would agree... after all, when asked to name 3 things he loved most about his favorite character Daemon, the first thing he named was "Daemon's relationship with Rhaenyra"

–Would he have said that if Daemon had been cheating on her or hurting her? Nope. GRRM made Daemon for Rhaenyra. He made them bind their souls. He even made them die on the same day just 5 months apart. Daemon and Rhaenyra's line is the one that prevails for centuries, their sons both become kings of Westeros, even Daenerys is of their descent... And these two are literally the ONLY two characters GRRM made secretly marry by binding their souls in an old Valyrian blood magic ritual...

Nettles is Daemon’s daughter and absolutely no one can convince me otherwise. First of all, her personality is incredibly similar to Daemon’s mother, Alyssa, which I don’t think is a coincidence. Both are anything but refined and ladylike, Alyssa is “as bawdy a wench as any barmaid in King’s Landing, as she herself was fond of boasting”, Nettles is “a filthy girl with an even filthier mouth”, both are tearaway tomboys, they are both described as not conventionally attractive, Alyssa has a broken nose and mismatched eyes while Nettles has a scarred nose and crooked teeth. And not only Alyssa, but also Baelon’s bravery, bopping Balerion on the nose, Baela and Daemon’s personalities all echo in Nettles, particularly in how she tames Sheepstealer. There are too many similarities between them for it to be random.

Second of all, if we look at Daemon’s reaction to “Rhaenyra’s” letter, there’s something a lot of people miss:

The prince greeted me politely, but as he read I saw the joy go from his eyes, and a sadness descended upon him, like a weight too heavy to be borne. When the girl asked what was in the letter, he said, ‘A queen’s words, a whore’s work.’

He was happy when he got a letter from his queen and wife, but became very sad when he read its contents, he was crushed with grief. He then blamed Mysaria for the content of the letter. This reveals several things:

1. If he lost attraction to Rhaenyra and was cheating on her, why would he be happy to get her letter ?

2. If he didn’t care about Rhaenyra, why would he be sad instead of angry ? Why did he feel no guilt or shame, or try to cover up the truth if he was cheating ?

3. If all he wanted to do was control Rhaenyra as a puppet, if he only cared about himself having power, why didn’t he fly back to King’s Landing after letting Nettles escape and come up with a way to gaslight Rhaenyra, who at this point was beginning to lose her handle on King’s Landing ? Wouldn’t he have wanted to prioritize winning the war ? Persuade Rhaenyra to name their son Aegon heir instead of Joffrey ?

4. A “weight too heavy to be borne.” That isn’t the reaction of a man who got caught cheating and regrets it, it’s the reaction of a man devastated that his queen and wife lost faith in him and made him choose between her and his daughter.

He blames Mysaria for the letter, instead of getting angry at Rhaenyra herself. Why is that ? Because he lived with Rhaenyra in an unconventional joint family for a decade and yet Rhaenyra is unable to accept Nettles and doesn’t trust him anymore. Rhaenyra and Daemon raised all of their children together. He likely expected that he’d be able to officially introduce Nettles as his daughter after the war. But those plans were dashed terribly.

Yeah, it's exhausting to point out all of the things you say abt Mysaria, Nettles, and Daemon time and time again over the past few years to people. As for Nettles being Daemon's bio daughter, I truly believe in it. At first I was like "🤨" but then "🤔" and now I've been on board for a while. It just makes sense to me, esp when you contemplate that Daemon absolutely would have been sleeping around on Rhea while a few feet/miles from the Stepstones or slept with some pirate or whatever. And yes, it adds so much to see Nettles act Baela-Daemon-like or have more...room to behave contrary to the ideal "lady" when she's had to look out for herself perhaps from very young childhood.

[darklinaforever]

Lucerys is definitely Daemon's son.

[mikasaerens]

This fandom seriously needs to reckon with the fact that the outlines for seasons 3 and 4 are potentially disastrous. GRRM spoke up about Maelor but it’s clear that he has tons of issues with the second season and this was the tamest remark he could make. For him to outright SAY that the outlines for s3 & 4 would involve more toxic butterflies… y’all this is going to be a fucking shit show. Hopefully this drama and whatever’s going on behind the scenes will lead them to course correct.

[an3-lim]

What i just saw???? Daemyra wouldn't have happened if Harwin and Laena survived? And why is that? Because those two were such great loves of Daemon and Rhaenyra?

People can't read 💀

[sunnysideaeggs]

it seems like people miss the detail that Blood & Cheese tied and gagged Alicent and then strangled her bedmaid, killed Helaena's guards then that happened.. Young Jaehaerys was the main target, but Daemon took more lives that day too. He is a monster, I want to vomit every time they call him a hero and that he died for Rhaenyra's cause, when in fact, he abandoned her alone with her children and went to die a badass death. Aemond wasn't even the biggest threat to "Rhaenyra's cause" that was Daeron, especially after the first battle of Tumbleton that she lost two dragons for the greens, and the hightower army is far from small

I mean that’s the same people that idolizes Rhaenys for killing hundreds of people to have eye contact for a few minutes with Alicent. You can’t expect them to have empathy for the common people, they’re convinced they are descendants of Targaryens of some shit.

The idolization of Daemon is something even George falls for nonnie 😵‍💫😵‍💫😵‍💫 he’s framed as a hero bc GRRM thinks he is. He’s not, and imo, both Aemond and him are the weakest links of their respective teams, both preferring to run away with a woman they loved and abandon their families in the most dire moment. The battle of the god’s eye is not meant to be a badass moment, it’s two selfish men dying to get written down in history.

And if I hear once more about how Daemon ‘died for Rhaenyra!’ and didn’t meant to abandon her in a city that rightfully hated her for a girl she envied and feared, I’ll riot. He preferred to face death instead of leaving Nettles and going back to his boring wife who desperately needed him. He knew he wouldn’t be able to handle Daeron so he settled for the next best thing: die a badass death instead of living to see his failure.

[hvrricqneeee]

If anyone wants me to make posts about any specific problems with House of the Dragon, my opinions on characters, character arcs, relationships, dynamics, scenes, season 1 vs season 2, Fire and Blood hypotheticals, show canon vs book canon, or just anything related to Fire and Blood / House of the Dragon, drop a comment and I’ll get back to it.

[fantasybuff96]

Matt Smith stating that Daemon loves Rhaenyra multiple times and when asked again this summer while shooting season two who Daemon loved the most. He answered with ‘Rhaenyra’

Ryan Condal - ‘He loves his family, particularly loves Rhaenyra.’ And also stating on another occasion that Rhaenyra is the woman that Daemon actually loves.

Geeta Patel saying that the entire production discussed it and wanted to show that daemyra are deeply in love with eachother, and called their love sexier then sex.

Even Sara Hess who hates Daemon admitted that Daemon and Rhaenyra belonged together.

GRRM himself said not too long ago that Daemyra is one of his favourite things about Daemon.

I could go on and on with more examples, yet I’m supposed to take random online users with nothing but headcanons and self inserting for their ship’s opinion seriously when they say that Daemon doesn’t love Rhaenyra? Be ever so serious.

[horizon-verizon]

Thinking about how GRRM literally created Daemon to be Rhaenyra’s consort. For those who don’t know, originally GRRM couldn’t decide on who was the best option for Rhaenyra and that’s when he got the idea of Daemon. He literally created Daemon for Rhaenyra.

Rhaenyra was originally going to marry either a Lannister or Lyonel Strong (Daemon was not yet created or included in this draft) then GRRM thought up the character of Daemon and added him as Rhaenyra’s consort instead.

More male characters should be created SOLELY to love and support the female protagonist.

nobodysuspectsthebutterfly has a post showing GRRM originally had Rhaenyra marry Lyonel Strong (and how no matter what and by whatever husband, the greens were going to try to usurp her), evidenced by the RPG guide (2012) for ASoIaF.

F&B was published in 2015; The Rogue Prince was published along with other stories in an anthology in 2014; and PatQ was published back in 2013. I would say that he created Daemon for Rhaenyra to give Viserys more of a reason to want Rhaenyra as his heir, since Viserys, now that D exists, canonically also wished to make sure the realm would not go towards someone he didn't fully trust. Also it gives the story so much more breath when you have a character like Daemon. And, of course, Rhaenyra and Daemon are pretty compatible in terms of character and political necessities; they provide the other with what they need/want the most even as they aop were "rivals" for the throne even thought they also kinda weren't. This was always Rhaenyra's story, anyway, for all the other interesting characters that surround her and interacted, tried to remove or support her (Corlys, Rhaenys, Alicent, Aemond, etc.). Her childhood, rise, and fall impacted by the misogyny and what she did or tried to do to keep her kids alive AND vie for the throne she was given and had oaths of protection for.

"couldn't decide on who was best who was the best option for Rhaenyra" -- idk, perhaps it was more hi wanting to enrich the story and give more personality and "family" to this part of Targ history, as he has done more for Jaehaerys, Rhaena, Alysanne, Maegor-Aenys before them. This doesn't stop or negate how Daemon was likely made with Rhaenyra's support base in mind. It is compelling to hear of a man/partner do whatever he can for his lover/wife, whether or not he has a character the complexity or cooperativeness of a coconut or as complex as Daemon is bc you don't get that often in traditional fantasy, male centered fantasy. Or it's publicly reviled with a million excuses before whatever version and manifestation in a particular work is actually critiqued. Because sometimes, there is something to be said abt just fictional dudes who are just more trouble than they are worth being posed as a model man. The lines between such things can get crossed.

And it appears Harwin was also created for Rhaenyra since there is no mention of him before PatQ/2013. But he (Harwin) happens to have much less characterization & personality done for him AND Rhaenyra quite clearly wanted to live as freely with a partner as possible and that wasn't really going to happen with Harwin for as long as Laenor lived at least.

Even if she was angry at Daemon for a myriad of possible reasons for the 111-112 incidents and perhaps they finally got through a successful reconciliation through their shared love for Laena (even before her death), there's room for a lot of complex & layered feelings on Rhaenyra's part towards Daemon. And I mention all of this bc apparently, GRRM also toyed with the idea of exploring Rhaenyra and Harwin's relationship more, saying that:

There’s a whole story there. At least a novella, maybe a novel but we simply did not have the time to tell it [in the show]. And it did not fit the format of my history book. But it’s a story and I’d love to do that.

(he is saying that their relationship's arc alone could fill/become a novella and he thought about doing it) which does goes to show you that Harwin WAS very important in some way to Rhaenyra--guaranteed to be someone she felt and experienced was a positive one for a time in her life at the very least.

I don't really go for Harwin bc I don't know anything abt him apart from his position, family, and devotion to Rhaenyra...so he has very little appeal for me in terms of shipping. That, and again, Rhaenyra seems to be the type who wants the "best" sort of conditions to be herself and have relationships in the open. I explain/rant HERE.

Still I agree; more males made only for a woman, plz and thank you. It's what we deserve (if a man is there and/or the attraction is there).

[ammmyturtle]

“There was barely a night in which Princess Rhaenyra was far from his brother’s dreams, and every so often she visited Prince Viserys’s as well. ”

��——— Unworthy by Sweetestpopcorn

[lady-corrine]

Rhaenyra and Daemon with first-born Aegon, by Gary Gianny

[darklinaforever]

.

“The Blacks are on the same level as the Greens.”

“There are no sides to choose, they are all equally bad.”

“I’m the people’s team, but says mostly pro-green things.”

“I'm team Greens because they care about the people !”

Besides I note that out of 4 crimes out of 2 really counts in my eyes.

Blood and Cheese was a response to the murder of Lucerys, caused by the Greens, and the taxes were the fault of (well get that !) again the Greens who had emptied all the coffers !

Which means that only crimes number 2 and 3 are real crimes for me. And I don't know about you, but they always seem less serious than those of the Greens.

[anticanonhearts]

hi daemyra nation. i would like to offer you this playlist:

[eschercaine]

QUESTION: Who is your favorite character to write in Fire and Blood? GEORGE R. R. MARTIN: Daemon Targaryen, the Rogue Prince, is one of my favorite Targaryens. He’s very charismatic, he’s very changeable. You never know what he’s gonna do, what side he’s gonna come down on. Is he gonna do something appalling? Is he gonna do something heroic? He does both in the course of this, and I like that kind of complexity in my characters. I like people who have a little humanity to them. Because I think all of us have both good and evil in us.

Meanwhile, the House of Dragon writers...

RYAN CONDAL: I’m having trouble understanding it. We established right out of the gate, in the pilot, that Daemon is a fascinating guy, but he’s not Ned Stark. To me, Daemon is the antihero of this story. He’s a character with a real darkness to him, who’s dangerous and charming in equal parts. I knew people would be fascinated by him and latch onto him, but I figured they’d do it in the way they did with Jaime Lannister or Bronn or the Red Viper. I did not think they would oddly apply this sort of super-fandom to him and try to justify every single thing he’s done as being intrinsically heroic. It simply isn’t. It’s not the case. I see Daemon as having heroic aspects to him, and I understand why people would. I mean, he’s incredibly charismatic, he’s handsome, he looks great in that wig, he rides a dragon, he has a cool sword. I totally get it. But if you’re looking for Han Solo, who’s always going to do the right thing in the end, you’re in the wrong franchise, folks. SARA HESS: He’s become Internet Boyfriend in a way that baffles me. Not that Matt isn’t incredibly charismatic and wonderful, and he’s incredible in the role. But Daemon himself is… I don’t want him to be my boyfriend! I’m a little baffled how they’re all, “Oh, daddy!” And I’m just like: “Really?” How — in what way — was he a good partner, father or brother — to anybody? You got me. He ain’t Paul Rudd.