#condal you understand.

[mummer]

the nights watch cultivated its strength from doomed men who had their life as their only possession..... making an offering at the onset of winter... this is not a sentence but an honour......

[juniorfor2]

I cannot believe that Ryan Condal seems to be making ANOTHER character in the show his mouthpiece (and for some bullshit magic explanation). Jace would never say, “our Valyrian histories, meant to gild us in glory.” Where does that work with his character, where has his characterization developed to make us think he would say such a thing? Oh wait, it hasn’t. Also, there would have been plenty of Valyrians who couldn’t ride dragons, why would they lie?

I had heard that Ryan Condal didn’t believe that one needed dragon rider blood to ride a dragon, but I didn’t think they’d be shoving it in so soon like that. And I knew that he fundamentally misunderstood magic in ASOIAF, but did he really have to be so weird about it. And just throw out all the lore?

One thing a writer MUST understand when it comes to magic, is that it must be grounded. It cannot have rules that are thrown out at a moment’s convenience, it must have very clear lines that are not to be broken. If a crystal ball gives someone visions, it can’t then two books later give someone the powers of a god. How magic works in a universe must be clearly understood by anyone who cares to take even a small amount of time.

GRRM, even with so many characters and different types of magic on different continents that isn’t always clear, manages to understand this where C&H don’t. He generally picks a certain area, and out of that area only a certain few that have the genes may access certain powers. Otherwise, it must usually be asked with blood magic.

Only the First Men have warging blood, but not everyone has the actual power. The genes passed through a few of the Starks (Bran, Rickon), and is more prominent in the free folk (Orwell, unnamed others, referenced as a normal part of life). NO ONE ELSE GETS IT THOUGH. Not the Lannisters, or the Baratheons, or the Targaryens (excluding Bloodraven because of his mom). ONLY those with First Men blood have the potential to access this power.

Out of all the Valyrian houses, only 40 houses were able to ride dragons. This points to the genes being fairly exclusive, they aren’t just mutating all the time to produce the genes/magic to ride dragons. Now, out of the 3 houses that fled the Doom, only one has the most prominent genes to ride dragons. If House Targaryen or another dragon-riding house ever married with the main Velaryon or Celtigar line pre/post Doom, then they also have carriers and occasional riders (Addam). BUT ONCE AGAIN, NO ONE ELSE CAN ACCESS THIS POWER. It is a power established through blood.

If that rule, after now being established in both the First Men and the Valyrians, is broken, then none of the lore makes sense and any magic can happen. There’s no way to make predictions in ASOIAF, no way to understand who gets to do what. Hereditary magic cannot be written and tossed aside for fun or random whim (looking at you Nettles. I know your ambiguity is important, but we know you’re not non-Valyrian cause that breaks the rules).

All other magic accessed, typically through R’hllor or the once of Dany’s fire magic, must be through blood or death. The sentence “only death pays for life” works for this. Dany got her fire magic by sacrificing Drogo, her son, and Mirri to the fire. Lady Stoneheart comes back, and kills the Frey men. Stannis summons a shadow monster, and kills his own brother.

GRRM UNDERSTANDS how magic must work when created. He knows it must be grounded, and he doesn’t even include that much of it to ensure it doesn’t get out of hand. Ryan Condal, however, does not.

Ryan Condal, and any other writers, throw around magic when convenient. The Iron Throne is insinuated to cut whenever someone makes a mistake in ep1. It shouldn’t say anything, because Aegon created it to be an uncomfortable seat and getting cut would be fulfilling that very purpose, but they give credence to a myth that GRRM has already implied is false.

“Cursed? It’s a throne made of swords!”

The White Stag shouldn’t mean a thing, but for some reason now it represents the rIgHtFuL ruler. Is there no such thing as a god ordained ruler for animals? Correct, but ignore that I guess.

Somehow making people experience magical hallucinations (they are magic, yes, Condal said it) is just shoved in with no explanation. How is Alys doing this, why is she doing it. Even Melisandre and Thorros of Myr had an explanation for their magic and a reason for using it.

And now in s2 ep5, the magic is just erased? It’s such a wishy washy conversation that I don’t even know. Now, it doesn’t matter if you have dragon blood? Or it must be thick? These people don’t know how genes work, so what are they saying and how would they know? The dragonseeds are already established to have the blood/genes, so what’s the point of the saying anyways for the audience? And why would bastards be recorded? There’s no reason. Everyone who married out of the family died or their children married back into the main line so they’re out too. It’s just incoherent.

Writers, you cannot be so irresponsible with magic. You must establish your rules, you must stick to them (preferably just grab GRRM’s rules). You need to be better. Even if you disagree with some of the rules or change them, MAKE SURE YOU KNOW WHAT THEY ARE.

[the-common-cowgirl]

So it seems that GRRM took down his excellent critique of HOTD Season Two and their exclusion of Maelor. This begs the question; How much did Ryan Condal have to stomp his feet and cross his arms for George to give in?

[black-queen-rising]

Me desperately trying to find this so-called "bias" it often feels like a solid two thirds of this fandom claim that the HotD producers/writers have towards Rhaenyra when literally every single change to other characters has fundamentally come from minimizing/obfuscating/or otherwise reducing her narrative and overall characterization and character.

Yes, I'm sure this woman who they have invented continual bad decisions, internalized misogyny, blatant disregard for the people closest to her, ineptitude, blindspots, and blatant, borderline unbelievable public disdain for in their adaptation of her character; who's background as a victim of child abuse, of continual misogynistic psychological and eventual physical violence, who's love of both other women and her own womanhood, infamy in her charm and popularity and continual attempts (and yes, often failures) to rise above the positions she was forced into they have also ERASED...is actually someone they're going out of their way to portray sympathetically?

Oh, but they favor her because...idk they haven't shown her being violently raped or repeatedly physically abused? Because you believe they actually think that making her seem like an idiot who never knows or thinks about what she's doing is somehow favorable?? Because it seems like ANY of these changes have actually endeared her to the fandom much less the show's general audience??? I literally cannot explain it most of the time, it baffles me.

I know I shouldn't be because why should any of us ever be shocked by misogyny in media anymore? By the portrayal of a woman for a mass-media (and heavily desired male) audience that's reductive and hollow?? But it's simply unreal to see how so many people somehow believe that this was done out of some sort of benevolence or favoritism. That so many people believe any of the changes made in the opposite direction of, and often active opposition to Rhaenyra's portrayal in Fire and Blood, were made out of some sort of desire to make her a tangibly more sympathetic or broadly understandable character, is something I'm not sure I'll ever be able to fully understand.

Except, of course, in the view that I really hope not everyone who says this sort of thing actually believes; that a self-confident woman who exercises her own agency is such an affront that even an unsympathetic, inconsistent, reductive, and idiotic cardboard cutout of a character is still a more respectable alternative.

[thesilverlady]

Ryan saying that he is a fanboy of asoiaf and cares about the world building but doesn't realise that he has made Rhaenyra's whole bloodline and all the future Targaryen kings of westros bastards are one of the funniest shits about this show

anon no hard feelings but let me grab the chance to kindly ask everyone to no longer send asks about Ryan and his. shein characters. I think we're beating a dead horse here and we should invest our time in something better ♥

but to answer you, I think he did realize it and thinks it's "deep" and morally gray because *points fingers* it's kinda like cersei and her kids- *gunshot*

Generally this show and any other show they might do after will always be anti targaryen because they've never given a thought to that family even during the gold years of GoT. They're just the perfect cows to milk because fans will always come for their stories - even the people who passionately hate them.

As for the dance, Ryan had this vision of telling the story of a broken family where everyone is in the wrong, where there isn't true villains, the true tragedy is the hate because only targaryens could tears down their own house and blah blah blah

That man clearly hadn't read f&b, hasn't understood the appeal of the Targaryens and couldn't have missed the point of the dance any more than he already has.

I think. we've established all that. Characters were done dirty. Lots of mischaracterization, and disregard of worldbuilding/lore.

[manderleyfire]

#the greens' love and loyalty and trust in not just each other but also their dragons was what differentiated them from team black #which was filled with betrayers and turncloaks. the greens' bonds of family was /their/ redeeming quality. so of course ryan condal takes #that away from them and gives it to rhaenyra. because everything good abt the greens and everything bad abt rhaenyra is propaganda (via gojuo)

Remember what they're taking from you

Fire and Blood, p. 398:

Fire and Blood, p. 387:

Fire and Blood, p. 390:

Fire and Blood, p. 401:

Fire and Blood, p. 402:

Fire and Blood, p. 409:

Fire and Blood, p. 424:

Fire and Blood, p. 425:

Fire and Blood, p. 437:

Fire and Blood, p. 473:

Fire and Blood, p. 561:

Dangerous Women, The Princess and the Queen, p. 783:

Fire and Blood, p. 506:

Fire and Blood, p. 381:

Fire and Blood, p. 380:

Fire and Blood, p. 533:

Fire and Blood, p. 541:

Fire and Blood, p. 542:

Fire and Blood, p. 550:

[fandom-blahs]

There's this one type of fan I don't really understand. When something they like gets adapted and they just run to defend the myriad of changes at it comes off like

idk

Someone that enjoys whatever is thrown their way and not because the original is well written or is good.

[darksvster]

okay i was asked to post this on tumblr since i posted a mini essay about it on twitter so here it is, i added some more examples and elaborated on my points that i couldn't over twitter.

so, when i first watched episode 207 i thought it was weird how religious rhaenyra was, until ryan condal mentioned the cult imagery. now i think instead of the show making her paranoid and neurotic in the final arc, they're going to make her more of a cult leader figure.

i think rather than leaning into her paranoia and the idea of a "hysterical paranoid mother" after she loses her sons, they're going to have her drink her own kool-aid more and more. it's interesting that this is what emma and ryan discuss in this scene with the dragonseeds in the inside the episode.

i think it's interesting that instead of the show positioning her like "a leader amongst the smallfolk," this episode positions her in a darker light, like someone who is manipulating the people there for her own goals. and when vermithor turns on the bastards, she doesn't let them run, the guards keep them barricaded in.

she is literally enraptured by the fire in these scenes. now that she knows it's possible for others to claim the dragons, she has been vindicated and wants more. this is not a merciful queen who is reaching out a hand to the smallfolk, she's throwing stuff at the wall and seeing what sticks. after all, these are just smallfolk. bastards with no honor. ryan literally describes the scene as a ritual sacrifice.

and who do you conduct sacrifice for? the gods. but in this case, the gods the seven or the old gods, they aren't even just dragons, but the fact that rhaenyra sees herself in the dragons. she says as much in the literal pilot of the episode when viserys asks her what she sees when she looks at the dragons. she understands the power they wield.

she knows that their power lies in the dragons. but she doesn't reflect viserys' belief that they are a power that man never shouldn't have trifled with. she leans into the chaos and fire and blood of the dragons, we see that in the sowing, clearly.

rhaenyra inherited the worst of both viserys and daemon and that will lead to her madness. she's got viserys' strong belief in prophecy (one now exacerbated by her desperation).

we see that faith in the prophecy falter but never truly fade. rhaenyra has always taken is seriously, to the point that everything she's done this season is in response to the prophecy. her pacifism isn't just due to avoiding bloodshed. she makes it clear to jace that before plunging the realm into war she had to know there was no other option because of the burden of the prophecy.

even though daemon has never believed in prophecy or superstition. she's also got daemon's desire and lust for power and strength (something she confessed wanting specifically because daemon is a man when she was speaking to mysaria).

it's a great deconstruction of the chosen one archetype to have her drink this koolaid and believe herself the chosen one only to have that belief corrupt her. emma d'arcy speaks on this in their interview with gq when discussing rhaenyra's growing fanaticism.

I think something that has been happening for Rhaenyra throughout the series is a growing religious fanaticism. After her father’s death, there is this desire to be connected to him in some way. And losing him happens at the same moment as having her throne usurped. And so that thing that would have been such a direct connection to him is also stolen. So in lieu of that, there’s that searching [through] the histories. I think imagining that at some point her name will feature next to her father’s is in some way comforting, and I find it very moving to see a person who in grief has committed themselves to the history books. As the series goes on, I think we see her more and more invested in her faith. She returns to the old gods. I think all of these actions are in search of her right; the thing that she thought she had received from her father, she is looking for evidence again and again. And part of it, I’m sure, is a choice. I think sometimes in times of loss, we can choose the anchors that we are going to cling to, and her faith becomes one. But I think there’s a narcissism in it. I think her connection with her religion is about wanting to reinforce a divine right. And I think, looking at [episode] seven when this miracle takes place, and this man claims Seasmoke, I think she feels that it’s a gift from the gods. I think it’s what allows her to ride roughshod over Jace’s very legitimate concerns about his own status. I think it’s what allows her to stage a massacre, essentially. She feels that she is riding on the wings of her faith. But her faith, and her belief that she is the ruler that is supposed to sit on that throne, are completely enmeshed.

They continue:

What is going through Rhaenyra’s mind as she watches the Targaryen bastards be devoured and torched alive? I think she feels like a god. I think she feels super proud. I mean, I think it’s uncomfortable. I think there’s something, actually, also that ties into the religiosity — even being back in proximity to dragons, to that fire, is to somehow be living her birthright. To be soaking up the divine, somehow. And do you think that she feels as though the decision to essentially stage a massacre, as you say, is vindicated when the two new bastard dragonriders are found? Totally. Without a shadow of a doubt. I mean, it’s horrendous, but I think she is now this sort of emboldened fanatic, [and] I think she’s experiencing events within a far bigger timeline. She’s imagining the history books. And you know, what’s happening right in front of her is awful. But in 300-400 years, what will be documented is possibly a very short war; a huge civil war that was averted, that this was the first ruling queen, that this ruling Targaryen queen expanded the Targaryen’s ability to have dragons within their armoury.

emma's read on this supports what we see on screen when it comes to rhaenyra's newly found zealousness. the religious aspect could lead her to do things that might have been seen as atrocities by her. it could lead to mysaria abandoning her, her riders turning on her, and we would see more of that targ madness.

gods are mentioned several times in 207. first by addam, who says that the gods are calling him to greater things. rhaenyra has never been the extremely religious sort but, in this scene, she looks like she's had a moment of clarity.

importantly, rhaenyra doesn't know who addam's father is, or hugh's or ulf's. this is simply the first time in history that a non-targaryen (at least in her eyes) has claimed dragons. it's something that she believed impossible. it can feel like destiny to the desperate and she's been extremely desperate after losing daemon, rhaenys, and continuous loss after loss with no hope of recourse.

mysaria says that rhaenyra is lucky addam chose to bend the knee to her rather than himself. and her reply is that it is ordained. this religious vocabulary being used is intentional!

her complaint against the lowborn is that there is an ancient fealty from highborn houses. she essentially implies that bastards do not have honor. mysaria corrects her by pointing out that her legitimate half-brothers aegon and aemond aren't exactly delights, but that doesn't make rhaenyra see the light. instead she recognizes that there's fealty to be had from lowborn people too. the order of things have changed, as mysaria says, so she realizes that she can lift up people who have been historically stepped on and give power to the powerless, calling them her army of bastards.

but when jace calls this out, predicting that someone (perhaps hugh?) could lay claim to her throne if she legitimizes these bastards if not by name then by offering them the power of gods. obviously, jace's concern is real, his entire legitimacy lies on both viserys' past support and also the fact that he has a dragon of his own. if any bastard can claim one, what does that make him? but rhaenyra's response isn't logical. she believes that the throne is part of her and her son's destiny. their right.

for years, on some level, rhaenyra has believed that even though people have insulted her sons, they are full-blooded targaryens. she says herself that if she was a man she could father a dozen bastards, and as heir, she gives birth to three without hesitation. these aren't strongs or velaryons to her, her sons are targaryens.

but even when jace essentially begs his mother not to give commoners dragons, bringing up her past sins and pointing out his own struggle knowing that he's harwin strong's son, her response is somewhat cold. she says now that the gods have laid this in front of her and she has no choice.

the dragonkeepers call what she's doing blasphemy and note that it isn't the gods who brought the dragonseeds to her, but she herself has done that.

Dragonkeeper Elder: This is an abomination. You sent an Andal before a dragon. The judgment was delivered. Now you would send more. Rhaenyra: Ser Steffon Darklyn was the blood of the dragon. Dragonkeeper Elder: It was a blasphemy. He was no dragonlord. Neither are these. Rhaenyra: And yet the gods have set them before us. Dragonkeeper Elder: You have set them before yourself! The dragons are sacred; they are the last magic of Old Valyria in this sad world. They are not pieces on a board for the games of men. Our order will take no part in this.

to the dragonkeepers, she's using these bastards and dragons like chess pieces in her war. but to rhaenyra, who has seen addam claim seasmoke, it seems like this is a divine right — a sign from the gods. and that's proven again when hugh claims vermithor.

addam claiming seasmoke changed everything for her. she talks about claiming a dragon as a transformation, and, in many ways, this claiming has transformed her as well. she tells the dragonseeds that their purpose now is the end the hardships of war.

she paints a lovely image promising them peace at the end, but it is a wholly false image. with vermithor and silverwing now in her arsenal, there will be more suffering, more bloodshed. there are no promises of peace now that the war has been given to the dragons, not until everyone is dead. and if that happens, well, the gods willed it, not her.

in this moment, when she says "may the gods bless you" i have to wonder, is she talking about the seven? or the valyrian gods? or the dragons? i don't think she's fully in deep, but i can see the set up for a much darker storyline for rhaenyra rather than the book plot. every time her beliefs are proven or something impossible happens, that could reinforce her zealousness.

i have always said that rhaenyra is a combination of viserys and daemon, and i think that still. i think that she has both of their madnesses within her. as she loses more, the only thing she'll have to hold onto is that prophecy and the divine right she believes in now.

even this scene from the finale promo has over-the-top messiah, chosen apostles, last supper vibes. her saying "i have entrusted you with a power only few have known" as if she wasn't desperate for them and had no say in who the dragons chose. i love it!

honestly i'm totally here for it, i think it's an exciting direction to take. i don't think rhaenyra was always like this, she might have had the proclivity for it growing up under viserys' wing, but it's the war that's pushed her to this point. desperate people will turn to things like faith in order to guide them when the real world disappoints. i think it's a far more nuanced look at a sort of "madness".

and i'm here for the conflict that will happen with daemon as a result. i think daemon will be in direct opposition to this. he's NOT the type to follow cult leaders. this will be their conflict on top of the existing power struggles. this, to me, is far more interesting of a struggle as opposed to nettles causing romantic tension. this show has a tendency to lean away from harmful stereotypes about women. pitting woman against woman is one of them, as is the hysterical woman.

daemon dying for her could be a form of devotion, or perhaps even a command from a delusional rhaenyra who believes he will survive it. daemon could end up drinking the kool-aid too after the devastations of the war or simply realize that this is the last thing he can offer to someone who is too far gone to be saved.

THIS IS THE FIRE I WANT FOR RHAENYRA. this is the mad queen setup that we could have had! targ exceptionalism and completely going off the deep end as a way of coping with an unwinnable conflict. without viserys, without rhaenys, no one is there to temper the fire within her.

[juniorfor2]

See, I honestly think half the problems in HOTD could really just be solved if they slowed down their pacing. The second season was described a while ago as “action-packed”, and I was pretty suspicious then, but seeing it now has really just confirmed what I theorized.

During the actual Dance of Dragons, the politics and events can mostly be separated into 4 main parts:

Aegon II’s Usurpation - Rook’s Rest/Battle of the Gullet

Rook’s Rest/Battle of the Gullet - TB takes King’s Landing

Rhaenyra’s Reign - Rhaenyra’s Death

End of Aegon II’s Reign and the Queen’s Army Claims King’s Landing for Aegon III

The transition from smaller house politics and action to main Targaryen Hightower conflict is a bit messy around Rook’s Rest and the Battle of the Gullet, but for the purposes of a finale HOTD s2 should obviously be ending with Rook’s Rest.

During the first section, most of the action happens with the smaller houses and other kingdoms, not the Targaryens/Hightowers. The only truly notable events in the beginning for them are Lucerys’ and Jaehaerys’ deaths. Beyond that, almost everything is either politics and diplomacy, or small house battles (in the Riverlands and Reach).

This includes Jace’s diplomacy with the Arryns, the Manderlys, and the Starks. This results in Jeyne Arryn clearly outlining this fight as one against the patriarchy, the Manderlys gaining a marriage pact, and the biggest Easter Egg for ASOIAF - the Pact of Ice and Fire between the Starks and the Targaryens.

In the Riverlands, this results in all but two small houses declaring for Rhaenyra, and going into battle against the Lannister Army (resulting in Jason Lannister’s death). In the Reach, again most declaring for Rhaenyra, by first sending ravens demanding the release of their house lords, and eventually harassing Oldtown’s army when KL refuses to respond and Criston kills the lords/ladies.

There are so many things going on in the other kingdoms, that almost every episode should be focused on them, not Rhaenyra or Alicent.

If the writers had done so, it would have fixed almost all the inaction from Rhaenyra and Alicent. In F&B, Rhaenyra doesn’t do much of anything due to grief. And to be fair to the writers, this was actually a bit of not so great writing from GRRM, as most of the Targaryen/Hightower women in the first section do absolutely nothing (see Helaena as well). But unfortunately, there’s not actually much they can make them do now, because none of the action is near them - it’s in the rest of the Seven Kingdoms. So the only thing they can do is stupid shit like talking with each other in a sept where they say nothing original and act like none of the childrens’ deaths meant anything.

If, instead, the writers had focused on the rest of the Seven Kingdoms, this would have fixed that. There are so many battles, so many important conversations that would have filled the time. Both Rhaenyra and Alicent would have had so little screen time, that any scene they did have would matter a lot, without needing to fit in useless scenes. For instance, despite Rhaenyra having only one line in Ep. 1, it was a very meaningful and important line to the point that we didn’t actually need to hear much more from her.

This would result in action scenes like Lucerys’ death, B&C, Arryk/Erryk’s death, and Rook’s Rest becoming extremely shocking actions with large implications that stretch across the entire season, not quick actions scenes that can be forgotten as quick as they were seen.

This season shouldn’t be action packed. It should be slow, it should be the 1st season of GOT. Jace should have spent at least 2-3 episodes in the Vale/Winterfell, not be doing nothing but giving one-liners. The Burning Mill should have been an actual battle, the first real battle for Rhaenyra/Aegon. We should see the dozens of ravens flying in, declaring for Rhaenyra. We should see Aegon’s frustration and despair as he realizes that his mother/grandfather lied to him, that the Raelm would never flock to his side. We should be exploring themes of the patriarchy and how women broke out of or found ways around gender roles, of the lords placing more power and want for a king’s chosen heir over male primogeniture, of how non-feminist women can still fight for a feminist cause. Not one of misunderstandings where misogyny is stripped away for self-insert characters and political mouthpieces.

I hate to say it, but I wish D&D were the writers over C&H. They too were misogynistic and racist, but they adapted scenes so well that book themes carried across regardless of their intent.

[unicoo]

A lot of people when watching this show forget the world they live in is not the world WE live in. It’s fiction so you have to think within the realms of THAT FICTION not your reality, THEIR reality yk, in the FICTIONAL WORLD…….

So like a critical component of understanding team green and Alicent’s motivation for pushing their claim is completely lost on this fandom because of the fact that it’s so irrelevant nowadays that we wouldn’t even consider it.

But like…for most of human history marriages, especially aristocratic marriages, were binding social contracts that were meant to provide benefits and incentives to both parties. The woman would perform her wifely duties of bearing heirs (sons), child rearing, emotional (and physical - sometimes against her will unfortunately) support, and generally running the household in domestic affairs. And in exchange for these labors and quite frankly difficult and at times harmful tasks the woman was provided with safety from the outside world, all her needs being taken care of, and her children being the heirs. And a woman’s son being the heir means consistent protection into her old age when her often much older husband eventually died.

There was a purpose to marriage outside of love and ambition. But because we are privileged enough to live in a more modern society where marriage is a personal contract for which the technicalities can be selected by both individuals to ensure security and happiness, we cannot really even consider that once upon a time in the not so distant past there was a clear purpose. The man got sons/heirs and the woman got sons/protectors to care for her in her old age.

So when Alicent pushes for her son she has a plethora of reasons: believing in tradition, protecting the lives of her children who have competing claims, consolidation of suffering, etc. But she has one very clear and very reasonable reason that nobody acknowledges. She delivered on her part of the bargain and contract and she wants to collect what she is owed. She produced the sons, she gave the emotional and physical support (against her genuine will), she reared the children, she ran the household domestically and the entire kingdom. She did “everything expected of her forever upholding the kingdom, the family, and the law”. And now it’s time for her to collect her dues now that her much, much older husband is dead. To have her son be king and to be taken care of into her old age.

That is the contract she agreed to. That is the contract almost every woman in history agreed to. I give you a son and I get comfort and security when you (the husband) die and my son becomes the heir.

So I can go on and on about the personal, psychological reasoning that Alicent has that are all perfectly valid. But I don’t have to because at the end of the day she did her part of this marital obligation and contract and she deserves to receive her rewards.

[maybeiwasjustjade]

Genuinely, perhaps 99% of me, believes that the only reason Condal and Hess made HOTD Aegon a r*pist/have adult Aegon’s introduction the aftermath of the SA of a maid, was because they knew that if Aegon was just a drunk and a cheat—like almost all Westerosi men—he would be too tragic of a character not to root for, and they really couldn’t have that. No, Aegon has to be the monster to Rhaenyra’s saint, because if you took away the act that made him monstrous, he’s so easy to root for, and the TB/TG divide would be significantly larger.

Cheating and visiting brothels are quite common in Westeros, with the vast majority of male characters doing one or the other or both. Drinking is even more so. Aegon would still be palatable with either or both traits because it doesn’t make him worse than Rhaenyra. Rhaenyra had three bastards with Harwin because Laenor’s gay, so it makes her affair understandable and valid. Aegon was forced to marry his own sister as a young teen, and clearly despises the whole targ-incest tradition. Why is it a crime that he doesn’t find his little sister sexually or romantically attractive???

Aegon’s basically a Greek tragedy made flesh. The eldest son conceived to be a long-awaited heir, yet simultaneously cheated out of a birthright. Born wanted yet unwanted, the heir who is not an heir. Meant to be loved, yet raised without it, with a mother’s disdain and fear as his only companion. His father stopped wanting him sometime after his second birthday (probably around the time Jacaerys was born), and his mother never wanted him anyway. His mere existence is a threat to a crown he never wanted, yet nobody cared when they placed it on his head. He wants love but no one loves him, and contrary to popular belief, that lack of love didn’t just stem from adulthood. He was a little boy once too, who very much didn’t deserve that level of apathy.

Married to his sister despite his clear disdain for his family’s incestuous tradition. Forced to father children on her at the grand old age of sixteen (and she fourteen). The only thing he ever really loved was his dragon, and the children he had. And even those he loses to tragedy, and someone else’s doing.

It’s not at all a surprise that Aegon’s defining trait is his love for Sunfyre. A ridiculously strong bond, born from years of having only each other. Moreover, a dragon is the symbol of power, which Aegon has little of. He can’t protect himself from his own family’s abuse or machinations, and unless he claims the crown everyone he loves will die. Dragons also represent freedom, and the ability to just fly away. And if there’s one thing Aegon wants more than anything in the world, it’s to run away from his family and the accursed throne.

In that, he’s not so different than a young Rhaenyra (pre-personality change anyway). Young Rhaenyra hated having to conform to societal standards. Hated having no choice but to marry, and to whom. She too wanted to fly away to freedom. There’s too many parallels between the two, even down to their ages pre-timeskip. Rhaenyra was about 18, and Aegon now is only 20. Yet Rhaenyra at 16’s only problem was whether her infant brother would replace her as heir, while Aegon’s was being forced to play house with his sister and newborn twins.

Perhaps misogyny and society would always be Rhaenyra’s greatest opponent, and the same Aegon’s ally when it comes to their claims, but it was not the only issue. Precedent declared that Aegon would be heir ahead of her, yet it was Rhaenyra’s position and honor that Viserys defied law for, even when she committed high treason against the crown thrice. She got everything; Aegon had nothing. He’s the underdog of the story, not her. So had they not made him an on screen r*pist (unlike Daemon who was off-screen one and merely an on-screen pedo and wife-killer), it would’ve been very hard for the writers to push their “Rhaenyra good, TG bad” narrative. Those two would’ve had too many parallels and foils for it to work, and they really couldn’t have that, could they.

No, Aegon has to be the villain; Rhaenyra has to be the hero. It’s a black and white war, good vs evil. That’s the story HOTD is trying to sell, and not at all the complex tragedy of a family tearing itself and its dynasty into pieces over greed and idiocy.

[synchodai]

I understand that because GRRM deleted his post, people will wildly misconstrue and exaggerate what was written, so here it is in full so you can read the actual words firsthand:

I want to isolate the part about Maelor. Here are the things GRRM says about him:

Condal assured him that Maelor would be included but walked it back.

Said that he still loved the B&C sequence on the show despite the lack of Maelor and it not being as strong as in the books.

Rickard Thorne in Bitterbridge wouldn't happen without Maelor.

Helaena commiting suicide wouldn't have happened if she didn't receive news of Maelor being so brutally murdered in Bitterbridge.

The Butterfly effect he is talking about is Maelor's birth -> B&C Helaena chooses Maelor -> Jaehaerys is killed instead of Maelor which leads to Helaena's guilt and trauma -> Maelor is brutally murdered in Bitterbridge -> Shatters Helaena's already fragile psyche -> Helaena kills herself -> KL smallfolk riot because Helaena was a popular queen -> Rhaenyra is driven out of KL by the smallfolk.

Things GRRM DIDN'T say:

He hates how the show handled B&C.

That Rickard Thorne or even Maelor is an essential character.

That the events have to happen as written in the book.

That he hates Rhaenyra.

Ryan Condal has committed treason most foul and now must be fed to his dragon.

[black-queen-rising]

New competitor for my list of: Top 3 Weirdest Phenomena in My Absolute Weirdest Fandom Experience of All Time.

Reading something that broadly fits under the #anti-HotD umbrella, that acknowledges the story’s underlying message of the destructive power of systemic misogyny, talks about how the show is incredibly reductive in it’s “feminism” benevolent misogyny, and how none of the characters are done well…and then after all of that flips things back around to say “and that’s why Rhaenyra was always wrong, why her reign would’ve ended in horrible destruction no matter what, why the simple energy or will to try to incrementally change this terrible system via the existing laws and precedents (which I have decided to obfuscate) was doomed to fail, and nothing ever will or can change.”

My brother in fandom do you truly not see a single inconsistency talking about ~toxic misogyny~ to justify a system and position that’s more conservative than Queen Mary I and Queen Elizabeth I? More importantly, are you really going to talk about a narrative in which every. single. character. is eventually put through immense psychological torment ending in tragic death because said destructive misogyny. You can recognize what the show has done is reductive and ultimately harmful, congrats. Can you explain to me why Alicent and Aegon and Rhaenys and Helaena and (yes, no matter how much you hate them) Daemon, and Aemond, and once again every. single. character. were ultimately victimized, traumatized, lost everything, and then died in misery without bringing up the “choice” you believe Rhaenyra made to go to war?

No???

The point is that it does not matter if you work for the system or against it, if you are disadvantaged or privileged by it, if it has given you everything or taken it all away; when that system of toxic misogyny is left to flourish and let loose as a weapon against your enemies it will not spare anyone, when there is no counterweight to it the destruction will not die down it will simply grow worse, and choosing sides is pointless not because they’re “both bad” but because they have all been victimized by that system far worse than they ever could’ve been by each other.

You wanted a tragedy so bad? Congratulations, you’ve found one. Now stop wasting your time being pissy that Rhaenyra isn’t MacBeth no matter how bad you want her to be and start reckoning with the fact they were all forced to be Antigone no matter how desperately you want the ones who externally validate your views to be the only ones justified.

[alicentflorent]

"call it propaganda against rhaenyra, what is the most awful version that alicent would have recounted to historians" This just makes the whole thing even worse. They decided show Alicent lied about being in the room, not even that, she lied that it all took place in her room and the greens exaggerated what happened to helaena and her children because she wasn't forced to choose a child to die and her 6 year old daughter was not threatened with rape if Helaena didn't choose, the evil mind games that caused Helaena to lose her sanity? didn't happen, it was just told that way to make the blacks look like evil monsters involved in blood magic. Every bad thing they did? a conspiracy theory probably.

It's gone from senseless violence committed against women and children who were specifically targeted, whose story wasn't questioned in the history book as being fabricated in any way, not even by those who fully support Rhaenyra. Blood and Cheese was never Dae;mons fault. The greens just lied and tried to paint him as the evil man who targeted children during a war because of HIS desire to punish the greens and the fact that he is a bad guy capable of doing cruel things (we literally see him abuse and threaten Mysaria into helping knowing full well she isn't guilty of anything warranting being locked in a cell to die) but really he wanted aemond and it all just went horribly wrong and those evil greens didn't care they just wanted to turn it into propaganda, cheapening the very real trauma that Helaena and her children went through because obviously they only care about slandering Rhaenyra. Ryan Condal they can never make me like you and discounting something that happened to women and children at the hands of MEN that was never disputed by "historians"? real feminist of you.

How did the HOTD fumble blood and cheese so badly? This could have been your red wedding but it was more like some half assed plot taken from d&d’s season 8 scrapped plotlines

[atopvisenyashill]

if condal had been able to wrestle away asoiaf from d&d and do his little queer coding for random characters who do you think it’s getting that treatment in the main series. i’m not doing a poll bc he’d obviously choose more than one character to do this with (considering he basically did it with every targaryen + alicent, u can make the argument here for others as well imo), we’re all just gonna start yapping lol. my thoughts are-

arya stark - no brainer

sansa stark - also obvious to me

samwell tarly

theon greyjoy - i Really think he would have done a tragic visaemon thing with throbb

cersei lannister - i think she would be his alicent esque “she’s a lesbian except she also wants to fuck her male relatives” thing, i think of condal had been able to go wild with asoiaf he would have done some amazing and WEIRD shit with cersei & joffrey’s relationship

brienne of tarth

jaime lannister - man Already has the bi wife energy + is constantly thinking about how amazing other men are, i think he would playing up some crazy gender performance stuff with brienne, jaime, and cersei relationships on all three legs of that triangle

oberyn martell - i know he is bi in canon but the way they write his queerness in the og series is almost cartoonishly queerphobic and i think condal would have had much more interesting things to say here

[visenyaism]

HOTD blog post GRRM posted and almost immediately deleted under the cut for archival purposes

Beware the Butterflies

SEPTEMBER 4, 2024

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Back in July, I promised you some further thoughts about Blood and Cheese… and Maelor the Missing… after my commentary on the first two episodes of HotD season 2, “A Son for a Son” and “Rhaenyra the Cruel.”

Those were terrific episodes: well written, well directed, powerfully acted. A great way to kick off the new season. Fans and critics alike seemed to agree. There was only one aspect of the episodes that drew significant criticism: the handling of Blood and Cheese, and the death of Prince Jaehaerys. From the commentary I saw on line, opinion was split there. The readers of FIRE & BLOOD found the sequence underwhelming, a disappointment, watered down from what they were expecting. Viewers who had not read the book had no such problems. Most of them found the sequence a real gut-punch, tragic, horrifying, nightmarish, etc. Some reported being reduced to tears.

I found myself agreeing with both sides.

In my book, Aegon and Helaena have three children, not two. The twins, Jaehaerys and Jaehaera, are six years old. They have a younger brother, Maelor, who is two. When Blood and Cheese break in on Helaena and the kids, they tell her they are debt collectors come to exact revenge for the death of Prince Lucerys: a son for a son. As Helaena has two sons, however, they demand that she choose which one should die. She resists and offers her own life instead, but the killers insist it has to be a son. If she does not name one, they will kill all three of the children. To save the life of the twins, Helaena names Maelor. But Blood kills the older boy, Jaehaerys, instead, while Cheese tells little Maelor that his mother wanted him dead. (Whether the boy is old enough to understand that is not at all certain).

That’s not how it happens on the show. There is no Maelor in HOUSE OF THE DRAGON, only the twins (both of whom look younger than six, but I am no sure judge of children’s ages, so I can’t be sure how old they are supposed to be). Blood can’t seem to tell the twins apart, so Helaena is asked to reveal which one is the boy. (You would think a glance up his PJs would reveal that, without involving the mother). Instead of offering her own life to save the kids, Helaena offers them a necklace. Blood and Cheese are not tempted. Blood saws Prince Jaehaerys’s head off. We are spared the sight of that; a sound effect suffices. (In the book, he lops the head off with a sword).

It is a bloody, brutal scene, no doubt. How not? An innocent child is being butchered in front of his mother.

I still believe the scene in the book is stronger. The readers have the right of that. The two killers are crueler in the book. I thought the actors who played the killers on the show were excellent… but the characters are crueler, harder, and more frightening in FIRE & BLOOD. In the show, Blood is a gold cloak. In the book, he is a former gold cloak, stripped of his office for beating a woman to death. Book Blood is the sort of man who might think making a woman choose which of her sons should die is amusing, especially when they double down on the wanton cruelty by murdering the boy she tries to save. Book Cheese is worse too; he does not kick a dog, true, but he does not have a dog, and he’s the one who tells Maelor that his mom wants him head. I would also suggest that Helaena shows more courage, more strength in the book, by offering her own own life to save her son. Offering a piece of jewelry is just not the same.

As I saw it, the “Sophie’s Choice” aspect was the strongest part of the sequence, the darkest, the most visceral. I hated to lose that. And judging from the comments on line, most of the fans seemed to agree.

When Ryan Condal first told me what he meant to do, ages ago (back in 2022, might be) I argued against it, for all these reasons. I did not argue long, or with much heat, however. The change weakened the sequence, I felt, but only a bit. And Ryan had what seemed to be practical reasons for it; they did not want to deal with casting another child, especially a two-year old toddler. Kids that young will inevitably slow down production, and there would be budget implications. Budget was already an issue on HOUSE OF THE DRAGON, it made sense to save money wherever we could. Moreover, Ryan assured me that we were not losing Prince Maelor, simply postponing him. Queen Helaena could still give birth to him in season three, presumably after getting with child late in season two. That made sense to me, so I withdrew my objections and acquiesced to the change.

I still love the episode, and the Blood and Cheese sequence overall. Losing the “Helaena’s Choice” beat did weaken the scene, but not to any great degree. Only the book readers would even notice its absence; viewers who had never read FIRE & BLOOD would still find the scenes heart-rending. Maelor did not actually DO anything in the scene, after all. How could he? He was only two years old.

There is another aspect to the removal of the young princeling, however.

Those of you who hate spoilers should STOP READING HERE. Spoilers will follow, at least for the readers among you. If you have never read FIRE & BLOOD, maybe it does not matter, because all I am going to “spoil” here are things that happen in the book that may NEVER happen on the series. Starting with Maelor himself.

Sometime between the initial decision to remove Maelor, a big change was made. The prince’s birth was no longer just going to be pushed back to season 3. He was never going to be born at all. The younger son of Aegon and Helaena would never appear.

Most of you know about the Butterfly Effect, I assume.

Yes, there was a movie with that title a few years back. It’s a familiar concept in chaos theory as well. But most science fiction fans were first exposed to the idea in Ray Bradbury’s classic time travel story, “A Sound of Thunder,” wherein a time traveler from the present panics and crushes a butterfly while hunting a T-Rex. When he returns to his own time, he discovers that the world has changed in huge and frightening ways. One dead butterfly has rewritten history. The lesson being that change begets change, and even small and seemingly insignificant alterations to a timeline — or a story — can have a profound effect on all that follows.

Maelor is a two year old toddler in FIRE & BLOOD, but like our butterfly he has an impact on the story all out of proportion to his size. The readers among you may recall that when it appears that Rhaenyra and her blacks are about to capture King’s Landing, Queen Alicent becomes concerned for the safety of Helaena’s remaining children, and takes steps to save them by smuggling them out of the city. The task is given is two knights of the Kingsguard. Ser Willis Fell is commanded to deliver Princess Jaehaera to the Baratheons at Storm’s End, while Maelor is given over to Ser Rickard Thorne to be escorted across the Mander to the protection of the Hightower army on its way to King’s Landing.

Willis Fell delivers Jaehaera safely to the Baratheons at Storm’s End, but Ser Rickard fares less well. He and Maelor get as far as Bitterbridge, where he is revealed as a Kingsuard in a tavern called the Hogs Head. Once discovered, Ser Rickard fights bravely to protect his young charge and bring him to safety, but he does not even make it across the bridge before some crossbows bring him down, Prince Maelor is torn from his arms.. and then, sadly, ripped to pieces by the mob fighting over the boy and the huge reward that Rhaenyra has offered for his capture and return.

Will any of that appear on the show? Maybe… but I don’t see how. The butterflies would seem to prohibit it. You could perhaps make Ser Rickard’s ward be Jaehaera instead of Maelor, but Jaehaera can’t be killed, she has a huge role to play as Aegon’s next heir. Could maybe make Maelor a newborn instead of a two year old, but that would scramble up the timeline, which is a bit of a mess already. I have no idea what Ryan has planned — if indeed he has planned anything — but given Maelor’s absence from episode 2, the simplest way to proceed would be just to drop him entirely, lose the bit where Alicent tries to send the kids to safety, drop Rickard Thorne or send him with Willis Fell so Jaehaera has two guards.

From what I know, that seems to be what Ryan is doing here. It’s simplest, yes, and may make sense in terms of budgets and shooting schedules. But simpler is not better. The Bitterbridge scene has tension, suspense, action, bloodshed, a bit of heroism and a lot of tragedy. Rickard Thorne is a tertiary character at best, most viewers (as opposed to readers) will never know he is gone, since they never knew him at all… but I rather liked giving him his brief moment of heroism, a taste of the courage and loyalty of the Kingsguard, regardless of whether they are black or green.

The butterflies are not done with us yet, however. In the book, when word of Prince Maelor’s death and the grisly manner of his passing (pp. 505) reaches the Red Keep, that proves to be the thing that drives Queen Helaena to suicide. She could barely stand to look at Maelor, knowing that she chose him to die in the “Sophie’s Choice” scene… and now he is dead in truth, her words having come true. The grief and guilt are too much for her to bear.

In Ryan’s outline for season 3, Helaena still kills herself… for no particular reason. There is no fresh horror, no triggering event to overwhelm the fragile young queen.

And the final butterfly follows soon thereafter.

Queen Helaena, a sweet and gentle soul, is much beloved by the smallfolk of King’s Landing. Rhaenyra was not, so when rumors began to arise that Helaena did not kill herself, but rather was murdered at Rhaenyra’s command, the commons are quick to believe them. “That night King’s Landing rose in bloody riot,” I wrote on p. 506 of FIRE & BLOOD. It is the beginning of the end for Rhaenyra’s rule over the city, ultimately leading to the Storming of the Dragonpit and the rise of the Shepherd’s mob that drives Rhaenyra to flee the city and return to Dragonstone… and her death.

Maelor by himself means little. He is a small child, does not have a line of dialogue, does nothing of consequence but die… but where and when and how, that does matter. Losing Maelor weakened the end of the Blood and Cheese sequence, but it also cost us the Bitterbridge scene with all its horror and heroism, it undercut the motivation for Helaena’s suicide, and that in turn sent thousands into the streets and alleys, screaming for justice for their “murdered” queen. None of that is essential, I suppose… but all of it does serve a purpose, it all helps to tie the story lines together, so one thing follows another in a logical and convincing manner.

What will we offer the fans instead, once we’ve killed these butterflies? I have no idea. I do not recall that Ryan and I ever discussed this, back when he first told me they were pushing back on Aegon’s second son. Maelor himself is not essential… but if losing him means we also lose Bitterbridge, Helaena’s suicide, and the riots, well… that’s a considerable loss.

And there are larger and more toxic butterflies to come, if HOUSE OF THE DRAGON goes ahead with some of the changes being contemplated for seasons 3 and 4…

GRRM