#challengers discourse

[billyrussoapologist]

Challenging Challengers - why one of the most popular films of the year is also one of the most divisive

I don’t get the criticism for Challengers. I get just disliking it, that’s valid, personal preference and all. But some of the hate is so bizarre. I’ve seen people saying it glamorizes cheating (considering all three characters are miserable, pretty objectively terrible people, I don’t see it), that it’s gay p*rn (there’s not a single s*x scene in this movie), that the character arcs are incomplete (those last few shots say a lot. Besides, it’s not like they were suddenly going to become great people after being toxic for so long).

The most baffling criticism I’ve seen is calling this movie a chick flick, geared towards women, a woman’s fantasy. I can assure you that no remotely sane woman is watching this film and seriously wants to be like Tashi. The characters are complex, the cinematography is insane, the score is the best I’ve heard in a while. It’s not even like the central protagonist is a woman (although even if that was the case, I don’t see how that would automatically make it geared towards women). While all three are main characters, I would argue if there was one central protagonist, it would be Art. The movie starts with his daily routine, seen through his lens. Although they’re all morally questionable, he’s arguably the most relatable and has the strongest conscience. Also, both of the male leads are attractive, but in a realistic way. Sure, they’re shredded, but that fits in context with their characters as professional athletes. Otherwise, they’re attractive in a very real, obtainable way, which is nice to see. If this was a “woman’s fantasy,” then surely they would have the more stereotypical razor sharp features of types like Rob Lowe or Zac Efron. There are films with similar relationships that aren’t seen as strictly “for women.” Match Point, Vicki Cristina Barcelona, Y Tu Mama Tambien, The Dreamers (which contains explicit scenes of incest in addition to the threesome relationship), all of which are heavier on the s*x/romance than Challengers, and none of which are seen as geared specifically towards women.

So why does Challengers get this treatment? As far as I can tell, it’s just because a lot of young women have very vocally praised this film. When women, especially young women it seems, latch onto something, the perceived total value goes down. It also raises the question of why it’s seen as an insult that a movie would be geared towards women, like it’s somehow inferior and less prestigious than movies geared towards men. I believe a lot of men have watched women latch onto this film without knowing much about it or understanding it much, and think that women must be glamorizing cheating or leading men on. When in reality, women just love a great movie.

If you read some of all of this post, thank you. It was lengthy, but I had to get this out. I’m always up for a discussion, if you agree or disagree, feel free to share. Just please keep it civil and polite.

[allthingswhumpyandangsty]

writers, this is a sign for you to say fuck censorship and write a disgusting fic that will sicken your readers

[drownedcat]

the “lily is actually patrick’s daughter!!” theory is one i cannot get behind. tashi duncan had her whole life planned out, controlled. the one unpredictable thing in her life was her knee injury which completely threw her off course. every choice she makes is a concious one - she has weighed the pros and cons of it all before making a decision. yes, even cheating on art in atlanta. but there is not a chance in HELL that she wasn’t tracking her cycle or on long form birth control or something akin to her knowing her windows. you really think patrick zweig’s daughter wants to cuddle and watch spiderverse? that child would be bouncing off the fucking walls. lily was certainly planned between tashi and art. maybe i’m wrong and i’m willing to be wrong, but the way tashi is written i cannot imagine her having an unplanned pregnancy with patrick. regardless, art is lily’s father in every sense of the matter.

[canichangemyblogname]

Assuming that every last line that comes out of a gay character’s mouth is sex and/or kink related is actually homophobic. “God I hope so,” “And a I’m just trying to keep up,” “You’re a vision in a cone” << none of these lines were actually about kink or inherently some reference to sex. When you assume that every time he flirts with his boyfriend, there’s some secret meaning to his words that reveals he’s a sex-crazed pervert, creep and freak, you’re being fucking homophobic.

[clispectors]

love, jealousy & rivalry

a lover's discourse by roland barthes / challengers (luca guadagnino) / asking about you by eloise klein healy

[dlldior]

genuine question why do proshippers love to use the "erm you're younger than the black butler manga 🤓☝️" argument when they're getting shit on for fantasising about a child and an adult together

because surely, assuming the person arguing against them is a minor, that'd make their point more valid seeing as minors are uncomfortable seeing grown adults sexualise another minor?

i mean tbh this discourse can just be wrapped up by saying "ciel's a child you absolute nonce" and that'd be the end of that but it had me thinking

[frenzyarts]

Terf should stand for Trans Exclusionary Radical Failure because I have seen the most misogynistic shit come from them

Feminist card revoked

[super-nova5045]

mike faist doing numbers on tumblr during the DEH era and now him doing numbers for challengers…my babygirl will never not be famous

[miraculouslumination]

You know sometimes it just hits you that so much of queer "discourse" is basically one group of queer people trying to cultivate a subcommunity for themselves and their identity while another group of queer people cry and scream about how that group, who is just trying to exist and have their own bubble, is the cause of all their own group's problems

[hallaburger]

i'm actually really upset at the watcher "fandom"

y'all seem like a lot of fair-weather fans to a group of guys who have consistently put out shows that you love, you've gone to their live shows, you've bought their merch, you've followed them over the years as they've grown and built their own brand

and then when they come out to say "hey, we're proud to announce the next big step for us as creators, producers, talent, and directors," you fucking scream and rail and throw a fit because they are launching a paid service that allows them MUCH more creative control and freedom while also supporting their staff in a more sustainable way???

that's sick and pathological, and i wonder how many of y'all were blogging in support of the wga/sag-aftra strike, because if you were and you're pitching a fit now? check yourself. not fucking cute to say you support those folks and then bitch and moan when your so-called favorite creators take the initiative to support themselves in a way that they feel more confident in.

"but we liked the old content that looked like it was made in a basement and the blue and yellow text and--" okay, did you ever think that maybe?? MAYBE???? the guys wanted to do something better??? if you really supported them, you'd be in support of their creative ambitions, too.

[separatist-apologist]

Hey uh... is everyone okay?

[allthingswhumpyandangsty]

I’m glad I decided to leave Wattpad and stop using it as my main posting platform when I did years ago, because looking at it now, the censorship and the unfairness the platform gives its users are insane.

apparently your book could get shadowbanned if it contained violence, even if you rated it properly and gave your readers proper trigger warnings for them to decide for themselves if they wanted to go ahead and read it or not.

porn is allowed there but it has to be porn with plot. so porn without plot is banned if one of your readers decided they didn’t like what you wrote and reported your book to the platform. 🤡

listen… I wasn’t going to put 2 platforms against each other (if you like Wattpad and are okay with how they treat you as a writer and/or reader, then good for you), but meanwhile over here in AO3 we don’t have to deal with any of these censorship issues (and I hope it stays this way)

AO3 has a team of lawyers protecting its users.

AO3 doesn’t let any ad pop up on their site ever, because it’s a non profit organization, not one of those big corporations where you have to subscribe and pay for premium service if you want to keep using the app without an ad popping up every chapter.

AO3 — unlike Wattpad — is run by fans. for fans.

AO3 thrives solely on volunteers and donations because people appreciate how fairly it treats its users and how the platform refused to let censorship stop anyone from creating art.

you can write the wildest, most fucked up works on AO3 without having to fear your works might be reported. as long as you tag your works properly and make sure all the trigger warnings are there for your potential readers to decide for themselves if they want to read your works or not, you’re good.

*hence the “Dead Dove Do Not Eat” tag, which is very common on AO3.

just… if you’re looking for a sign to join AO3, I think this is it.

[vaxyl]

Thinking about Vax'ildan.

Thinking about Vax and hair.

Thinking about a small child running to his mother crying because a bigger kid pushed him into the Gladepools and his hair is all messed up now.

Thinking of him sat in front of the fire as his mother dries and untangles his hair, singing to him in her mother's tongue.

Thinking of him and his sister sitting on stools at the kitchen table waiting impatiently as their mother braids their hair all prettily for the Harvest Close Fair, the pair giggling and kicking their feet as they're asked to "please sit still for just another minute, you two."

Thinking about Vax asking to brush his mother's hair and braid it, so she teaches him how to do it and Vex asks him to braid her hair as well.

When Syldor takes the twins, aged 10, to Syngorn, he forces them to have their hair cut according to Syngorn's bizarre Family Hierarchy Hair Rules;

waist length hair is indicative of political status

hair just above the waist is indicative of being the head of your household

just above the elbow length is indicative of being the household heir

just below the shoulder length is indicative of being respected by your household

hair that's shoulder length exactly is indicative of being from a wealthy household but of having little respect

just below chin length but just above shoulder length is indicative of you coming from a non-wealthy family

hair at chin length or shorter than chin length is indicative that you have been disowned by your family's household

Syldor has waist length silky black hair, which he usually leaves undecorated unless he's hosting or attending a ball

Vax also has silky black hair, Syldor having it cut from just above the elbows up to exactly shoulder length - while Vex has curly brown hair that had also been just above the elbows before it was also forcibly cut to shoulder length exactly

Vax would continue to help his sister with her hair, brushing it and braiding it for her

Whilst Vex slowly earned a modicum of respect through her hard work at school, her hair allowed to grow longer, Vax never gained any respect as he flunked his classes and started to act out, so he had to keep his hair shoulder length

By the age of 16, Vex had her hair back to just above her elbows to show that she's now the household heir - while Vax has rebelled and cut his hair into a choppy pixie cut in an attempt to piss off Syldor

He's forced to wear a wig to social events and he's banned from using sharp objects, but its worth it to him

When the twins run away from Syngorn and end up living in the woods when Byroden is gone, Vex has Vax cut her hair to match his as a symbol of her love for him and Vax cries while doing so because his sister's hair is so important to her

from then onwards, Vax comes to consider both of their hair as incredibly sacred to him, taking as good of care as he can of both of their hair even while living out in the wilderness

they both grow their hair out to be waist length, almost as if to spite Syldor and Syngorn

Vax braids Vex's hair in a way that protects and maintains her curls, while he likes to decorate his hair with small braids with colourful beads through them

When they join Vox Machina, Vax accidentally becomes the resident hairstylist as well as the resident cook - Scanlan, Pike and Keyleth all go to him for hair cuts, hair styling & help with shaving properly

Percy wouldn't start asking for his help too until after they've dealt with the Briarwoods and freed Cassandra & Whitestone

Cassandra also goes to Vax for help with her hair, having him cut it to her shoulders for her after years of Delilah not letting her style it how she wants to

when Grog gets the belt and grows a beard, Vax helps him to style and maintain it

Vax and Gilmore do each other's hair, teaching each other different styles and hair care tips as they gossip - just two boyfriends who have "caring for the other's hair" as a love language, so cute!

Vax and Allura, who are best friends with messy feelings in my fanon, love to gossip over tea and take turns braiding each others hair as they do

and I can so see Vax starting a hairdressing salon in the back of the 2nd floor of Gil's shop

just...Vax'ildan and hair 😭

(I will never forgive TLOVM for the fuckass ugly hair they gave Vax, let him have pretty hair!!!)

[myfandomrealitea]

Was your Safe Spaces post discord-(or any closed forum I guess) specific, or do you think the same should go for fandom-themed blogs on tumblr? Like, if I follow someone for Doctor Who content, I'd rather they didn't put real world issues on my dash, but otoh, it's their blog and they get to decide what they post on it (preferably tagged so I can curate). I've observed that people that run themed blogs that become popular often seem to feel an obligation to use their platform for activism (or, in the case of crypto-radfems, deliberately built their platform to recruit), and it stresses tf out of me for the reasons you mentioned, but it's not like the maintags are much safer because there will be spam relating to real-world issues, or antis trying to relate fiction to real world issues.

Realistically; the same outlook can and could be applied to any social setting. Be it online, private, public, face to face, ect.

Your point about obligation in terms of platform scale is something I've also noticed and have been dabbling about raising. Mostly because you see it a lot with celebrities or public content creators who receive a large following. Its often less that they feel obligated and more than they're usually bullied into it.

For example; I follow a trans (FTM) vlogger on Instagram. His entire online presence is based around being trans and helping to educate people and support people in regards to learning about being transgender, transgender health, his personal transitional journey, ect.

He's got a modest following, nothing ridiculous but I think right now he's sitting at around 75,000 followers.

And as of late, there are random people who don't follow him and aren't at all interested in what he has to say flooding his comment section with things like:

Why didn't you mention anything about Gaza?

All these followers and no shout outs for smaller creators?

What are you doing to raise awareness for X?

All these views could've been used to raise awareness for X.

And its fucking ridiculous. People are pressuring a middle class trans man with 75,000 followers to accept responsibility for counter-responding to a literal war when there are actual celebrities and billionaires with both the actual reach and money to make a difference who simply refuse to because they won't personally benefit from it.

I used to run a really popular fandom blog here on Tumblr. For an actual fandom, not just what I do here and now. It started off small, but I eventually grew it to the point where my follow count was creeping toward 10,000. Which for Tumblr and for a fandom-specific blog was not at all insignificant.

And the moment my notes count started going up, the demands started flooding in. People expecting me to reblog their donation links, demanding I share their friend's aid post, asking why I wasn't reblogging awareness posts or donation drives, ect.

Its largely because its easier to harass accessible people over it than it is to harass someone like Kim Kardashian, but its also because again: we have such a skewed understanding of what is actually effective in terms of activism and circulation of information.

Most of it comes down to shaming people and trying to assert that they're a bad person for having the privilege and benefits of a large following but not doing anything for other people or to 'deserve' that following. They're 'a bad person' for having 75,000 people's attention and not using it to force them to be aware of X.

A good example of proper audience targeting and activism is the page We Rate Dogs.

We Rate Dogs will share awareness posts and donation drives.

About dogs.

Because their followers are there for the dogs. Their followers like dogs. They want to enjoy dog content and help dogs.

If they started sharing posts about war and death and rape, the people who are following them to see cute dog videos will simply unfollow them.

They're using their targeted platform properly.

[girlfcker]

btw if you see tashi as the villain even after rewatching challengers i don’t like you.

tashi duncan is a black girl who came from a lower income family and was always told and promoted as having a gift and being at the top of her game 25/8. her gift was her passion and she had it ripped from her hands, her very being, unfairly because she wasn’t at the top of her game for once, something that clearly stung because that’s how she was always promoted, always seen as. tashi also dealt with racism and was surrounded by majority white competitors even when she began to coach art.

she had every right to be bitter, even 20 years later in life she has every right to be bitter because she never got to recover or even try again and here comes her husband, recovering like nothing. with patrick, you can see him lose everything because he pushed everything away in attempts to stand on his own and prove he didn’t need either of them while it’s very obvious tashi is clinging to whatever she can without trying to prove she needs art or patrick.

her family relied on her gift and passion and was told it would change their lives for better, which it did. her scholarship relied on her gift and passion, her life depended heavily on getting up every morning to enjoy that passion. so yeah, i say let her be mean and bitter to people.

[balkanradfem]

im glad to see more people talking about the substance because i felt like i was going crazy seeing how well received it was!! you covered pretty much every problem i had with it very nicely but i also wanted to point out the things outside of the movie. ive had a thousand ''how to look like sue'' videos pop up without ever searching for them. ''sue makeup tutorial'' ''workout to get sues body'' ''sue outfit inspo'' ''sue hairstyle'' its everywhere. i actually saw a women younger than sue lamenting that she was elisabeth and wished she was sue! you can argue maybe they didnt get the point of the movie buuuuuuuut 80% of the movie is just showing the audience that sue is very sexy and playing into that gets her everything she could dream of. and given how people are now obsessing over and wanting to be the actress uhhh i think they actually did understand the movie, but the movie didnt understand the movie if that makes sense. the movie has put the actress out there to be treated just like sue. also sues actress said in an interview that she wore prosthetic breasts in the nude scenes to make hers bigger. even the young, conventionally attractive actress wasn't considered sexy enough for the movie, she had to be made artificially sexier. For a movie about how bad women are treated for aging and having imperfections, it sure went out of its way to make sure there was no sign of age or imperfections on the women.

That is devastating, I'm saddened by this, but it also makes sense, because the movie failed to examine or challenge the notion that it's better to be Sue, they showed Sue as a body without personality, without humanity, only male projection, and then failed to challenge any of it. And the current propaganda is the same! We are told it's better to be nothing but male projection on a synthetic body.

I was horrified by everything about Sue, including the prosthetic chest they added to make her even more unreal and palatable to male standards. She is everything I don't want to be, and her apparent enjoyment of life was all forced, all a performance, nobody could enjoy living like that.

You're right that the movie just gave them that message! That it's normal to yearn for something so unattainable and so unsustainable and inhuman, just because it's shown as something more desirable, more acceptable in the society. It's such a scary fantasy, and I'm angry now that they never challenged or rebuked it, it was just gone and then everything else went bad and it's just an awful message.