#cbs is obviously homophobic

[artistiafox]

So the general rumor going around is that CBS canceled NCIS Hawai'i in an effort to rid network TV of LGBTQ+ relationships, and honestly this makes more sense than "financial reasons." If that's the case, then honestly they're just crap, and to replace a show that was headed by a woman of color and had a diverse cast with a show about a *checks notes* hetero white male who was originally played by a toxic and abusive person is just... wow, that's the hill you're making your stand on CBS?

[player1064]

kate for someone reason thinking jamie is homophobic not sure why or how but she does (sara has me obsessed with the idea that they can’t stand each other now lol) and then him introducing her to gary and she’s like 🤯 ft. micah in the corner like you didn’t know he never shuts up about him???

god Kate and Jamie literally CANNOT STAND EACH OTHER!!! I'm OBSESSED with that dynamic tbh!!!!!!! As always. this one is much longer than intended...

Also, don't need to have read it but this is technically intended to tie in to my fic Happy wife, happy life (but tldr Jamie regularly calls Gary his wife partly to keep their relationship under wraps but mostly bc. he finds it funny to call Gary his wife.)

---

“Obviously we’re done for the season right before pride month kicks off,” one of the CBS producers is saying, eyes darting over something on an iPad. “And since you four have been pretty popular we were thinking of including you in some of those ad campaigns, so if I could just get some dates off of all of you –”

“No,” Jamie says immediately.

All three of his colleagues snap their heads up to him, but only Kate looks at him coolly and says “no?”

Micah, because he’s Micah, chuckles and slaps Jamie in the shoulder, trying to diffuse some of the new tension in the air. “Not like you to turn down extra cash, Carra.”

Jamie rolls his eyes, pretends not to notice the way Kate’s eyes are burning into him. “Check my contract. Wish I could, honest,” he says to the producer, feeling very very glad that he had a clause added to his contract specifically so that he doesn’t have to take part in things like this, “But it just wouldn’t be do-able. You lot ‘ave fun, though, with yer rainbows and yer glitter.”

Kate just looks at him incredulously. “This is one thing you decide to take a stand on, mister ‘I don’t care about politics’?”

Rainbows just don’t really suit Jamie, is the thing. Nor does the extra scrutiny that comes from wearing rainbows.

Doesn’t really matter to him what Kate thinks of him, though, so he just shrugs and continues packing up his stuff for the day.

*

“Jamie – Jamie, I finally got onto Raya, can you have a look at my profile?”

Jamie looks up at Micah with a frown. “What the fuck is a Raya?”

“It’s a dating app,” Kate says from her end of the desk, in that unimpressed tone of hers that makes Jamie wonder why she’s bothering to insert herself into the conversation at all.

“An exclusive dating app,” Micah corrects, wiggling his phone in front of Jamie.

“Weren’t you already seeing someone?” asks Jamie, but he accepts the phone with a sigh and puts his glasses on. “I don’t – I’ve never used one of these things, what am I meant to be lookin’ at?”

Micah shrugs. “Didn’t work out,” he says breezily. “How have you never used a dating app, you’ve not been married that long. And look at yourself, you can’t tell me you weren’t a player before Mrs Carra came along.”

Jamie had got around a bit, in his playing days. Not much, mind, because he’d had to be careful, but he’d done alright. Unfortunately – and this is not something he’ll ever admit to anyone, even under duress – any thoughts of that had gone out the window the moment he’d walked onto the Sky campus after retiring.

“You’re right,” he says with a wink, “look at me. As if I’d need an app to find myself a bird. Why’d you want me to look at this, I’m not exactly your target audience. ‘less there’s somethin’ you’re not tellin’ us,” he adds, elbowing Micah and waggling his eyebrows.

Kate looks on unimpressed as the two of them double over in laughter. “Not that any of us would have a problem if you were, right Jamie?” she says haughtily.

Jamie catches Micah’s eye and has to fight back another bout of laughter. “Dunno,” he says, “I can think of one or two problems I’d ‘ave if Big Meeks here suddenly tried hittin’ on me.”

Micah bursts out laughing again, his hand clapping to Jamie’s forearm, and Jamie can’t help but join in – it’s infectious, okay?

“God,” Micah says, wiping a tear from his eye, “can you imagine how your missus would react. I’d never be able to work in television again.”

“Nah, she’d prob’ly send you a fruit basket, thank you for taking me off ‘er hands.”

Kate clears her throat and the two of them sober immediately at the sight of her raised eyebrow. “Maybe cool it with the outdated banter,” she says, “or do I need to remind you boys that you’re not in a dressing room anymore?”

She storms off, he heels click-clicking away as Jamie and Micah look at each other and try (and fail) not to start laughing again.  

*

“You didn’t want to bring your wife to the end of season party, then?” Kate asks politely, looking slowly around the room.

“Huh?” Jamie says eloquently, because he’s had a couple of glasses of prosecco and he’s not thinking as quickly as he usually might. “Oh, the missus. Yeah, she’s here but  – I dunno, she’s a bit shy, like. You didn’t invite Malik?”

Kate rolls her eyes, the way she always does when Jamie mentions her boyfriend. “Well, he lives in America. So.”

“Carra,” an annoying voice calls from just behind him, “Carra, come over ‘n meet Schmeichel? I’ve not seen ‘im in years, d’you know, I think I’d forgot how tall he was.”

Jamie puts a hand on the small of Gary’s back to keep him from bouncing around too much (the man is such a lightweight, it’s embarrassing), and says “I’ve already met Peter, you dolt. I work with ‘im, remember?”

Gary squints at him for a second. “You drag me all the way down to London, and then y’can’t even be bothered to –” he finally seems to realise that Jamie had been talking to someone, because he quickly shakes his head around a bit and holds a hand out to Kate with a smile. “You’re Kate, right? I love what you do on the show, honest, I’m always sayin’ people need to be meaner to James here.”

Jamie thinks he sees Kate blush a bit, like she hadn’t realised anyone else had noticed her dislike of Jamie, but she takes Gary’s offered hand anyway. “And of course you’re the famous Gary Neville, I’ve heard a lot about you,” she greets. “But aren't you still with Sky? What brings you to our little operation here?”

“Scopin’ out the competition,” he says with a wink, then turns back to Jamie. “Carra – Peter?”

“I said no! I’ll talk to him later, stop badgerin’ me.”

“Did you two travel down from Manchester together?” asks Kate, “You know, Jamie seems so invested in my relationship but none of us have ever met his wife, do you know where she’s got to?”

“Ah, his fuckin’ wife,” Gary mutters, smirking up at Jamie. Jamie winks in reply and slips his hand down a bit to pinch him on the arse.

Micah comes over, his tuxedo strained against his biceps, and he pulls Gary away from Jamie to throw an arm around his shoulder in a half-hug.

(Gary squirms a bit at the unexpected contact, but he still gives Micah a friendly pat on the chest.)

“Big Nev! It’s been ages, man – Jamie told us you were coming, but he’s promised that before and not delivered.”

“Been pretty busy, up in Manchester,” Gary says with a shrug, carefully extracting himself from under Micah’s arm and returning to Jamie’s side. “But I’m obliged to do the plus one thing at least two –” (“Three,” Jamie corrects,) “—fine, three times a year, and I figure there’re worse places to be.”

“Aw, you love it really,” Micah says. “I’ve always kind of wondered what it’s like to be a WAG.”

Gary rolls his eyes. “It’s a thankless job, to be fair.” He pokes Jamie in the bicep and adds “I’m going back to talk t' Peter, you miserable old twat. Honest, I’m always talkin' to Scousers fer you.”

“I already know –” Jamie starts to protest, but Gary’s already wandered off. “Ugh. Sorry about ‘im. You can’t take Mancs anywhere, can ya?”

The two Mancs he’s talking to look at him, unimpressed.

“He seemed nice,” Kate says carefully.

“He’s not,” Jamie replies.

*

“Good summer?” Micah asks, their first show back after the break.

“Brilliant,” Jamie replies with a grin. “It were my turn to choose the destination, so –”

“Ibiza?”

He nods. “Ibiza. The house was done just in time, too.”

“You know, I can’t really imagine Gary in Ibiza.”

“Oh, he hates it. Complained the whole time, but he does that wherever we go.”

He becomes aware that Kate is watching them from across the desk, not trying to hide that she’s listening to their conversation with curiosity. Jamie nods to her, all polite like. “Hows about you, Kate, good summer?”

“It was fine, I –” she shakes her head. “Sorry, you’re saying you go on holiday with Gary Neville?”

Micah scoffs. “Who else would he go with?” he asks, and Jamie points to him in agreement.

“I dunno, his wife?”

Jamie blinks.

He thought he’d got all this out the way, dragging Gary along to the party a couple of months ago. Apparently not.

“Gary is my wife,” he says, then suddenly feels very stupid saying that to someone who’s not already in on the joke, so he corrects to “my husband, I mean. Obviously he’s not – he’s a man. Obviously.”

Kate’s eyes are wide, unblinking. She looks between Jamie and Micah, lips pressed together while her brain seems to be buffering.

“You’re married to a man?” she says eventually. “But you’re not gay, I mean – you’re –”

Jamie, who last time he checked definitely was gay, raises an eyebrow, amused. “I’m what?”

“You’re a footballer,” she attempts, and oh, this is far too easy.

“Bit ‘omophobic, that, sayin’ footballers can’t be gay,” he replies, holding back a smirk.

“Oh shut up, you know what I – you’re a lad! You’re always with the banter, and the…”

Thierry wanders over, freshly brewed cup of tea in hand. “What have you two done this time?” he asks, looking pointedly at Jamie and Micah.

Jamie raises his hands to protest his innocence.

“Thierry,” Kate asks, reaching a hand out towards him, “did you know Jamie’s married to a man?”

Thierry rolls his eyes. “Ugh, fucking Neville,” he replies, and goes to sit down.

[didnt-hear-cold-as-you-live]

I’ll honestly only stream original Speak Now due to anger with that and I wouldn’t be sorry // Ok, I have to ask, what's the hold that particular lyric has over so many fans? I've seen other people say a similar thing. It's as if a lyric mocking another woman (a very real woman who has expressed being hurt by the lyrics) is somehow a make or break element of the song, and it can't stand on its own without it.

If Taylor doesn't change the lyrics, I'll understand. They were written a long time ago, and faithful recreations, warts and all, are one way of reclaiming her art. However, if she does change them, I'll understand as well. After all, changing a throwaway line so it doesn't potentially hurt a real person is another way of reclaiming her art in a way she's proud of, if she so chooses. (If I were her, I would reach out to CB with a private apology and let her decide.)

Can you help me understand where your passion on this topic comes from? I'm earnestly curious and not sure why it's inspiring such discourse.

For me, it really really deeply upsets me if art should only be allowed to exist if it’s of moral purity. That obviously excludes things that are flagrantly racist / homophobic / etc, but a) the whole song is “”””sexist”””” and the line doesn’t change it so I think it’s dumb as hell anyway, but moreover I think her even HAVING to change a lyric due to its perceived horrible sexism is inherently fucking sexist. No one holds any men accountable for the product of their time lyrics they wrote as teens. Like, in an adjacent example, Paramore stopped performing Misery Business because of one line in it for YEARS meanwhile other bands who came up in the same genre at the same time have entire careers built on shit talking “slutty” women and no one has ever batted a fucking eye. It’s absolutely infuriating to me to act like these women have to grovel at the feet of the general public and apologize for these things when they’re really not THAT bad to begin with, honestly - sorry but a teen having angsty emotions and blaming another girl is fine. It’s literally fucking fine. They do that. It’s not completely morally pure but what is at that age? It’s dumb to expect them to be in that avenue.

And then like I said in the tags there’s a whole added element of dating someone who watches porn of black women being brutalized half to death but then changing one lyric in an iconic song because THATS too mean and offensive - and the entire societal expectations in one umbrella versus the other - which is simply something I do not have the words for nor do I think this website has the nuance and bandwidth for, but am sure someone somewhere could write an entire doctorate about it.

[yarboyandy]

The Americans blatantly not understanding the satire of your Captain and Issac art is hilarious and shows why there has to be a different show for American audiences. (Obviously it’s not every American

I know 😭 maybe I’ve become a bit more spoiled in my small circle of mutuals or had a different internet experience than most but i was actually surprised that people thought I was being genuine and hating on the show/being homophobic.

I literally almost responded to someone like “are you genuinely this up in arms over satire for a…cbs sitcom?” But realized I didn’t care all that much and also i had to go to work lol. I think people here tend to humanize their media and assume any negative feedback against it will hurt its feelings

[kaypeace21]

The kids & teens echo their parents' problematic teachings/mistakes ( narrative analysis).

Brenner (’Papa’) in s1 k*dnapped El (according to Becky/Terry) to makes her into a weapon and spy to "fight the commies". Brenner in s1 also tells her to spy on people using her powers and to repeat the words she hears back to him. El in s3 says she can ″fight” the russians/ “commies” using her powers, spies on the boys and repeats the words she hears- back to Max . And literally in s3 when deciding to go into the void to see the mindflayer; she says a similar phrase brenner said to her in s1 (when discussing her going into the void to interact with the demogorgon). We also see how in s1 she refused to k*ll a cat like Brenner told her to- but in a flashback (between s1-2) she was so desperate for food in the woods she k*lled a squirrel with her powers (something that she felt guilt over).

When Will in a s1 flashback- admits he doesn’t like baseball but is doing it to appease their dad. Jonathan says “don’t like things cause people tell you you’re supposed to. ESPECIALLY not him (Lonnie)” Will in s3 rips up everything he likes-comics, drawings, etc .And  smashes castle byers (*which he originally drew/ and later created with jonathan after their dad left* ) using a baseball bat to do so.We also see in s1-2 Will still has a baseball and baseball mitt in his room (showing he really didn’t takes jonathan’s advice to heart).I also talked about how the destruction of cb also hints at Will’s abandonment issues and internalized homo*phobia-here.

Billy flashbacks show he quite literally became his father/ab*ser. When in a baseball-flashback he calls Billy a "p*ssy" we then see young-Billy get into a fight and call another boy a "p*ssy". We see Neil backhand slap his wife in the face- as kid Billy cries "don't hurt her." But than flayed-Billy backhand slapped Max in the face. Max in s2 even mentions Billy hurts her cause he can’t hurt her mother. And in s2 he hit Steve with a plate- mirroring his mother throwing a plate at Neil. In s2 he also shoved Lucas into a bookshelf after Neil did so to him. And in the st novel ‘runaway-max’ Max mentions Billy’s r*cist beliefs were originally from Neil.

We all see how Will parallels to Billy-aka h*mophobic dads forcing their sons named William play to baseball (and the many other parallels). I also think it’s pretty telling that El in s3 is watching Billy in the void flashbacks- evolve into his father/ab*ser (in the same season her and Will are subconsciously mirroring their ab*sive dads). We see she does empathize with Billy to a certain extent. I talked about it in more depth here. But cliffnote version: El uses the term “pretty” for woman she aspires to be like-Nancy was 1 of them in s1.  So El cries when describing Billy’s mom as “pretty” cause she knows what it’s like to have a mother figure (Terry) stripped away from you because of an ab*sive father - similar to both her & Billy’s experience .

Max tells Lucas she can be angry like Billy sometimes (aka her nickname ‘mad max’) and never wants to be like him. But after this convo she mimics Billy. Earlier, we see Billy in s2 antagonize max and demand her to “say it. say it!”And later Max yells at Billy “say it! say it” and attacks him with a bat. (Baseball was something Neil taught Billy). Showing that even Neil has influenced her to a certain extent (via Billy’s ab*se of Max). And thus showing the generational cycle of ab*se. And it’s also a parallel to Will; since both vent their anger via a bat.

Jonathan & Billy’s are foils. Foils can be characters with some similarities to highlight a key difference between said characters. They have similarities but the biggest difference between them is: despite similar backgrounds one is a good older brother and the other is not. And obviously jonathan, like other characters loosely paralleled to Billy, aren’t b*gots like Billy.But look at the similarities .  Both have homophobic dads who are into baseball , both had their dads shove them into walls, both had a parent abandon them, both are into rock,both are poor, both are attracted to wheeler women,both are older brothers. Both attacked Steve after their younger sibling disappears. Jonathan also tells a story where his dad made him k*ll a rabbit- to " teach him" how to be more like him. Hargrove (Billy's last name) - means "Grove filled with rabbits". And in s4 it's rumored Jonathan works at 'surfer boy" pizza. And who was a surfer boy in s3...billy. I also wanted to breakdown Jonathan & Billy’s fights with Steve ( and how it reflects their father issues… which Steve accidentally triggered):We see Billy and Jonathan both shoved into walls by their father’s . For Billy this is in a direct consequence of Max running away . And for Jonathan- Will’s disappearance (and Jonathan assuming Will ran away to Lonnie’s). Billy first shoves Lucas into the wall similarly to Neil. And both Jonathan and Billy are told to “STOP”. 

Billy mimics his mother-by throwing plates at Steve. And  we see jonathan before the fight to tell nancy to leave and it’s “not worth it” to argue with Steve. However he stops in his tracks when Steve says he’s “like his father”. Then Steve proceeds to insult his family. And  eventually Jonathan who throughout every season is generally portrayed as non confrontational attacks steve.Even when the cops come- Jonathan elbows the cop in the face and kicks steve with handcuffs on and even says handcuffed for the cop to “get off’ (like he told Lonnie earlier -after Lonnie shoved him into the wall).

Both would rather hurt  their own fathers-but Steve (and the cops) were used as their proxy instead. The fights might also reflect what the boys have been taught by their fathers-aka vi*lence. Also on some subconscious level jonathan may have been like-oh you think i’m like my dad? I’ll show you what my dad is like (beats steve with no mercy)

With Dustin, his relationship with Dart in s2 echoes his mom's emotional dependence on her cat, Mews. And as Claudia ( his mom) goes searching for Mews - Dustin goes searching for Dart. 

Kali ,  is a deeply nuanced and often kind character-  but uses her powers to make Brenner “her papa” be  her literal mouth piece when trying to persuade others. Sort of similar to El & Billy repeating words from their papa/dad.

In regards to (Dysfunctional) ROMANCE...

In s1, Nancy says “my parents never loved each other”. Later Jonathan says Nancy is repeating her mom’s mistake of being with someone she doesn’t even love ( by being with Steve). We even see Steve parallel Ted in s2 to hammer down this point . Both give mike advice about “staying on the bench” and the “team”, in s2.  This is also another baseball ref, since Ted mentions Mike “striking” out (Steve also had a baseball- trophy in his room, in s1, as another parallel between the 2). Plus, both steve and Ted eat chicken as both wheeler women storm off  from the dinner table upset. Both Ted/steve were/are athletes who were rich and older . But the st*ncy relationship does end in s2 -and she doesn’t continue to repeat  her mother’s mistakes.

We also see Mike repeating his mother and Nancy’s mistakes -in regards to romance. Mike wears similar shirts as his mom and dad in s3- who are stuck in a loveless marriage. The same season he's in his awkward forced relationship with El. in s3, mother and son are in loveless relationships but are both secretly interested in a dude named William. Yep.

We also have in s3 Mike saying after pissing off El “what did i do wrong?” what did i do wrong?” (2x while eating). Mirroring how Ted after angering Karen says “what did I do? what did i do?” ( 2x while eating).

Or how in s1 Mike encourages El to sit in Ted’s lazeboy saying “that’s where my dad sleeps” .And in s3 -as Karen watches Ted sleep in the laze-boy  the lyrics “ I should have walked away “ play. As she holds back tears regretting her decision to be with him .

This is also why Mike tells El romantic love is “something OLD people say” & Mike tells Will “we’re not KIDS anymore” (and says they have to get girlfriends / can’t live together for the rest of their lives). cause he’s just is trying to mimic his parent’s romantic dynamic with El.

And similar to Steve being compared to Ted (Nancy’s dad) to show st*ncy won’t won’t work out. Mike is paralleled to Hopper (El’s dad) to show m*leven won’t work out . EXAMPLES:

* Both saying to El  to eat “real food” not “eggos.”

* Saying others are “corrupting her” and in response gals say neither guy respect El’s ability to make “decisions” in regards to romance. Hopper not accepting El wanted to be with Mike ( and wants them to break up)  and Mike not accepting she dumped him.

*both  burping on couch eating chips. Hopper is on a lazeboy so kind of a loose parallel to ted.

*explaining promise vs com-promise: and making promises. (Hopper even spells it “com-promise” (to make the parallel more obvious). Steve in s2 also makes a “promise” to Nancy after their breakup.

* Both saying her “(New) look …it’s cool”. Also need to point out Nancy called Steve “cool” to his face after their awkward breakup-to break the ice .Just like mike did in relation to El (after their breakup).

* And  both saying the look is“bitchin” after El says the new look is “bitchin” ,first.

* El saying to Hopper and Mike “you lie.”

* Max saying “find something that feels like you -NOT HOPPER .NOT MIKE- you.”

* We also had mike be called El’s brother & cousin in s1. And in s2 the 2 are paralleled to Luke/leia (siblings).Plus ,there’s the loose parallel of Joyce (El’s foster mom) & Terry (mom) keeping lights up/El’s room decorations up hoping their kid is alive-sort of Like Mike keeping the blanket fort up & talking to El via walkietalkie (like Joyce with the phones to Will).

In s3 Jonathan is called “mother’s son”, and grabs an axe like Joyce does in s1 . Similarly, Will is called “Lonnie’s kid” ,and in s3 mimics Lonnie by grabbing a  bat . Joyce in s3 also wears Jonathan’s s1 shirt. (Comparable, to how Mike wears similar clothes to his parents - and repeats their romantic mistakes- specifically his mother’s).  Which begs the question. What romantic mistakes of his mother is jonathan repeating? Well this is going to be A LOT to break down...

Both Jonathan/Joyce make the same romantic mistakes. (which is why j*ncy/j*pper mirror eachother).  Murray  brings up Lonnie when talking about the potential of J*ancy/J*pper first getting together.Both j*pper and j*ncy get into a yelling match in cars in s3. And Murray asks if both ships are having "lovers quarrels '.

When describing j*pper in the car , Murray says Joyce thinks of Hopper as a “brute” that reminds her of a past "bad relationship" (lonnie) and that she wants to be with a “good guy” (like bob)  but that she’s “curious how (Hopper) is in the sac’ - ‘sac’ is slang for bed. Murray also says in the car to j*pper " cut the horsesh*t -and admit your sexual feelings for eachother”. Mirroring  In s2 murray saying for j*ncy to " cut the bullsh*t -and share the damn bed '. Notice Murray emphases the physical relationship more than the emotional- saying J*ncy should go to the “bed” and Jopper the ‘sac’ (slang for bed) in order to cut the horse/bull-sh*t.

The first thing we see of j*ncy in s3ep1 is them literally them sharing a bed , half dressed after b*nging, lipstick on Jonathan's face. Then Joyce (wearing jonathan’s s1 shirt)-points to and touches the lipstick on his face. After this J*ncy gets in the car - and as Nancy yells at jonathan to not give her a ‘jonathan byer’s pep talk’, he sighs /agrees , and Nancy applies her lipstick . Showing  a stark contrast between their physical chemistry vs emotional chemistry. (And how this connects to Joyce and Jonathan being similar in their romantic entanglements-let me elaborate.)

The shirt Joyce wears in s3 is originally worn in a s1 flashback, where  jonathan(in his room) tells Will not to mimic Lonnie’s teachings (about baseball). But also when Jonathan hears his parents arguing on the phone.

We see in s1-present time (after Will goes missing) -Jonathan watching Joyce on the phone begging for Lonnie to respond. Jonathan in s3 specifically gets offended Nancy waited a whole night to call him about an emergency (that may relate to Will)- because when Joyce begged Lonnie to call her back over an emergency about Will- Lonnie never called her back. Heck in s1 & 2 we even have a scene of Joyce getting annoyed at hearing Hopper & Lonnie’s answering machines. 

We even have the Nancy applying Lipstick scene parallel the j*ncy phone convo.  Nancy saying to not give a Jonathan byers’ “peptalk-right now”/ “lecture-right now” (positive and negative words)cause “ I really don’t need/give a sh*t”.

And maybe it’s a stretch but Jonathan saying to Nancy (while shooting Lonnie’s gun).“ I guess *he ( and my mother* must have loved eachother { at some point}” . Reminds me of  Nancy saying to Jonathan in s3 “ I guess *we* just don’t understand eachother {anymore}”.

Jonathan even brought up his father-in his car fight with Nancy. So i believe this line comparison was intentional by the writers. In both the j*ncy/j*pper car fights Lonnie is brought up. Lonnie affects Joyce and Jonathan’s relationships without even having to be around.

Also , yes, I’m aware that neither side was entirely right in the s3 j*ncy fight (nor am I excusing what Jonathan did to Nancy in s1).But let’s break something down- Nancy causes him to lose his job (which he needs to support his family /for his own college-since his dad isn’t around). And then Nancy says “here comes the Oliver twist routine again” (showing she doesn’t care much about his poverty that Oliver and Jonathan share or the fact -similar to Oliver-a parent is gone). Than right after Jonathan brings up his dad-she really put salt in his wounds calling him an “assh*le” (like Nancy called Lonnie- right before jancy first hooked up).

Nancy does apologize  and says she never even thought he was like “those assh*les” and “never meant it”. But Jonathan just dismisses the remark  by saying she just said it "in anger”- and then jonathan says to Nancy he’s “completely, entirely, mortifying wrong” for the fight. Which -no ... he wasn’t. Even Nancy did a double take at his comment- and Jonathan smirks cause they know it’s bs to patch up their fight. Than Jonathan says to not let it get to her head .which it immediately does as she says “i look forward to you never doubting me again.” But you know he’s probably emulating what Joyce used to say to pacify Lonnie. Cause (similar to Nancy in anger) Lonnie in anger called Joyce “an assh*le” too- while hypocritically attacking her parenting. And Jonathan says nothing to this. But does excuse Nancy for doing so to him-by dismissing it as just anger/the fact she didn’t mean it. what is telling is in that same”assh*le” convo -Lonnie says about Jonathan’s words “ SEE. (cough audience) that’s your mother talking RIGHT THERE”. Again illustrating how he mimics  Joyce (especially in dysfunctional romantic dynamics).

The first scene of j*ncy in s3 after “sharing the bed” is even a back to the future ref-a film name dropped in s3 (by steve/robin who mention the creepy  parent /son vibes in the film) . Jonathan puts on his pants and trips and falls face first. This in ‘back to the future’ happens to Marty -when a younger-version of his parent hits on him. yikes...

We also know how Billy & Jonathan are foils. SO (another parallel/contrast is)... Billy is attracted to  mrs.wheeler cause she subconsciously reminded him of the parent (mother) who abandoned him as a kid. Jonathan is attracted to miss Wheeler ( Nancy) cause subconsciously she reminds him of the parent (father) who abandoned him as a kid. Both are subconsciously  getting into unhealthy relationships to fill that void of abandonment-caused by their parent.

*Also people seem to forget part of the reason Jonathan made a move on Nancy In s2 was to PROVE he didn’t have ‘trust issues’ relating to his dad. Which he does.

He’s internalized his parent’s romantic dynamic to a certain extent- he’s just more in the Joyce Role.  While Nancy fits more so in the Lonnie role (no I’m not saying she’s as bad Lonnie- it’s just a lose parallel).

It’s especially ironic since he criticized Nancy for “rebelling” and making the same romantic mistakes as her mother. And telling her she’ll just end up with someone like her dad. And that st*ncy will be “like your parents who you found so depressing”. He wasn’t wrong - st*ncy was like karen/ted. But-Yikes. J*ncy is resembling Joyce/Lonnie too. Both Nancy pairings fit Jonathan’s expression of being in a relationship that resembles their  parents. ‘Black meet kettle’ (google that expression if confused). Nice work buddy you played yourself XD.

*Also, in s1, during Jonathan’s relationship lecture to Nancy, he throws in the mention of the  ‘cul-de-sac’ because Nancy mentioned at the sh**ting range how her parents moved there to make the perfect nuclear family . Symbolically I think it’s fitting that’s where the wheeler-parents moved to since it can translate to ”a route or course leading nowhere.” Nancy also states she thinks her parents never loved eachother (st*ncy-aka Nancy saying she “loved “ steve when she didn’t). She mentions this after Jonathan says he wasn’t around for when his parents supposedly loved eachother (j*ncy- they have strong feelings for eachother-but are just not compatible). But, unlike j*ncy, i don’t think Lonnie ever loved Joyce -but Jonathan despite hating him- thought he must have loved Joyce at some point (despite never seeing proof) . Cause when Nancy says her parents never loved eachother he just says “must have married for some reason?”(aka he assumes love=marriage). So i think both j*ncy & st*ncy loosely parallel their parent’s romantic dynamics (at least to a certain degree). Even the camera angle during the s3 j*ncy  fight- emphasizes  Nancy’s side profile -reminiscent of the s1 convo where her and jonathan talk about their parent’s messed up relationships.

Ok back to discussing the shirt of Joyce & Jonathan.The shirt Joyce wears that’s originally jonathan’s is shown when Jonathan tells Will not to mimic Lonnie’s teachings / Jonathan hears Joyce arguing with Lonnie via phone. The other time Jonathan grabs the shirt is when he’s in his room (and thinks he hears Joyce on the phone) .It’s also worn by Joyce as she brings attention to the lipstick (which is a symbol of fighting/mostly the physical chemistry of j*ncy).   And Joyce also wears this shirt when she  picks up the bob drawing and sadly caresses it.

Later (in the same shirt) after Hopper asks her out :Joyce watches cheers (Ep “rescue me”) and jopper is compared to Dianne and fraiser. Diane says as joyce is listening to the tv “He (fraiser) had a couple of sips of Chianti tonight and asked me to marry him.” At dinner Hopper orders a chianti  while being stood up by Joyce. And Dianne and Frasier don’t marry and are also not endgame, cause she ditches him at the alter.

The other ep of cheers she watches in s3 was with Bob in a flashback , and was called “ the rebound part 2″ in reference to Fraiser (aka Hopper). He’s just a rebound to Bob-why she’s thinking of Bob after Hopper asked her out. Aka lIke Murray said to her later in s3-she really does want to be with a “nice man” like Bob but goes for men that aren’t necessarily good for her- that she gets in yelling matches with similar to Hopper/Lonnie. Because she’s curious how they’re “like in the SAC”.

Also is it a parallel to Karen & Ted who are together living in a loveless marriage in a cul-de-SACK? like the “sac”?maybeeee... This is the same season Karen (stuck in her loveless marriage) says J*pper is ‘odd’ -but oblivious Ted just puts a hand on her shoulder and says “well you know what they say. Someone for everyone” . Karen turns to Ted, back at j*pper: SIGHS DEEPLY. Ted while jopper stare at eachother: “Holy smokes”.

Also, I’m not saying Nancy & Hopper are as bad as lonnie it’s just a loose comparison- that Joyce & Jonathan lean into relationships that involve a lot of “lover’s quarrels” and s*x (rather than something more emotionally healthy).

You could also argue that m*leven /St*ncy being called bullsh*t (aka not in love) ties to Murray saying about the j*ncy/J*pper “cut the bullsh*t/horseh*t” (as foreshadowing that it’s not healthy either). Nancy even says in s1 : her h**king up with Steve is “b*llshit” as foreshadowing. But in s1, she also says Jonathan’s ‘romantacized excuse’ for wrongly taking her pic was also “b*llshit” so it could be foreshadowing too?

We also see St has this recurrent theme : characters A’s bf/gf paralleling character A’s parent- st*ncy (not endgame),j*ncy( TBD?),m*leven ( TBD?)

Similar to how Nancy/Steve parallels her parents, Nancy/Jonathan parallels his parents, Nancy/steve also parallels Steve’s parents. It’s implied Steve's dad in s1 cheated on steve's mother (but she still stays with him and follows him on his business trips cause she doesn’t trust him to not cheat).  Tommy saying it’s a “good call” for her to do so. Making the fact Steve wrongfully assumed Nancy cheated on him (with jonathan) in s1 probably sting more. Steve- even after this wrong assumption is clarified- still doesn’t trust Nancy and  echos his mom in s2 saying he could stay in Hawkins for a year-so he can “look after her” and so she won’t “forget (his) pretty face.” Mirroring his mom. Later, after their fight at the party he calls jonathan Nancy’s " other boyfriend' . Showing he always feared inf*delity/Nancy cheating on him with jonathan (after s1). Later after this fight (and or breakup) Tommy  is the first to throw it in Steve’s face that Nancy went  away with Jonathan. After this- Steve once again- tries to get back with/makeup with Nancy .  Not even getting into whether or not they were officially broken up when Nancy ‘left town’ and hooked with jonathan. Cause people on both sides constantly debate it- I constantly go back and forth with myself over the answer ,tbh. Nancy dancing to the lyric “every vow you break” is up to you to interpret. The singer Sting divorced in 1984 (same year as s2) following his affa*r -which is how the song “every breath you take” came to be in the first place.  And it’s about spying on your ex and monitoring them- cough like how l*max and m*lven also had spying elements and danced to the song (mindflayer spying). And sort of like Steve wanting to watch Nancy out of romantic insecurity. I'm not dying on either hill tbh on whether st*ncy were already broken up. ( I think the Duffers made it debatable/ambiguous on purpose).  The point is Steve mimicked his mother to a certain extent: cause that behavior of staying despite possible infidelity (or just staying despite having so little trust in your partner you assumed they’d cheat unless you watched them) was normalized by her.  Either option isn’t healthy.But , regardless, we see Steve actually decides it’s best to be apart-unlike his mother. ps: Steve in s1 called his dad an “a$$h*le” , similar to Lonnie being called that as well. 

Similar to how Mike tries to emulate his parent’s dynamics into his own romantic relationship (in s3)-lucas does the same.Lucas' dad in s2 says to Lucas that when his wife is mad the 1st thing he does is apologize and then to buy her whatever she wants. In s3 we see Lucas sort of misinterpret his dad’s words . When giving Mike romantic advice he says "get them some thing pretty that says I'm sorry"(he forgot the whole first step of verbally apologizing and jumps right to the presents just being a symbol for the actual apology) . 

 In this same s2 convo  Lucas asks his dad “what if she’s wrong?” And his dad JOKES “she’s never wrong” . But kid-Lucas takes this literally (when it was clearly a joke). So when Mike asks in s3 “what did I do wrong?”. Lucas says Mike did “nothing” wrong  (which Mike most certainly was wrong) and he implies men always have to apologize even if the girl is wrong-  so Mike is the “victim”. 

And  before I hear it.No. I won’t tolerate Lucas hate/villifying here (in comments/reblogs)-so don’t try it! He’s literally a kid in middle school.  And every character has flaws that they’re unlearning.I shouldn’t have to say this . It should be obvious - that every character is nuanced and evolving.but there’s a double standard in this fandom when it comes to characters that are poc: we see how people villify Kali despite her good points and than act like Billy is a saint - sigh. And i still remember the weird lucas hate from s1.  i don’t want to contribute to that bs in the fandom or be accused of such.Anyways... I digress

 The whole point of this post is to analyze parental (& other nuanced characterizations or) dynamics-not ‘attack’ your fav character/ship. Although I’ll be honest most of the ships mentioned- i don’t have much hope for being endgame XD.I love the characters, though.My hope (and assumption) is most of the characters i’ve discussed will see what they’re doing and actively stop repeating their parent’s questionable teachings/dynamics.

 Also fun fact- it’s very telling we had the 2 main villains in s1 be 'Papa' (terrorizing el) and a creature that in d&d is a demon called "the deep father" (terrorizing Will). In s1, Nancy even describes the demogorgan as “like a lion” & Lonnie’s name literally means “lion’.

Not to mention all the other parallels between Lonnie and the monsters- which I talked about it here .

[abortionado]

how is spencer queer-coded. like i know he gay but i cannot think of any specific examples of queer-code

(Please note that I’m not saying any of these things make you gay/genderqueer, or that all LGBT people fit these tropes, but these are common experiences that LGBT people share, and with the knowledge that his character was supposed to be queer, they fall into place, in my opinion.)

(Also these examples include gender stuff because I believe in nonbinary Spencer supremacy)

• He repeatedly sets himself apart from other male characters who are “alpha males.” This is presented as just a personality thing, but what it is at its core is that he consciously rejects hypermasculinity and sees himself as a different kind of man than his hypermasculine peers. This is very similar to how I feel about straight female peers.

• This is kind of an obvious one, but that character he met up with in New Orleans, Ethan, was pretty clearly supposed to be an ex-boyfriend, in my opinion. Spencer splits off from the group, meets Ethan at a bar, and doesn’t make contact with the group again until the next morning. He tells Gideon that he had thought about ditching the FBI entirely to stay in New Orleans.

I can’t say for sure, since they don’t tell us, but given that Spencer doesn’t have anything else going for him in New Orleans and there aren’t a lot of fully grown adults who have platonic sleepovers when a free hotel room is available, I don’t think it’s unreasonable to assume they were hinting at sex and rekindling a college romance.

• His disdain for and disillusionment with Christianity. He’s not just not religious, Christianity specifically seems to actively make him uncomfortable and unhappy. In part 2 of Fisher King, he plays along with Diana’s delusion about giving a lecture, but he absolutely refuses to entertain Tobias’s religious delusions, even when his life is on the line. He gets annoyed when Derek talks about believing in God but not the Devil, and tries to poke holes in his logic. He talks about people “perverting the Bible” to “justify anything.”

They never explain why this is other than the one time he says he’s “a man of science,” which doesn’t hold up—he never has this sort of knee-jerk negative reaction to astrology, JJ’s fortune teller, Islam, superstitions, or literally any mentioned belief system other than Christianity.

(It’s quite common for LGBT people in the US to have negative experiences and trauma associated with specifically Christianity, since, for lack of a better way to say this, Christianity is the religion that creates most of our problems.)

• The whole Tobias Hankel plot. Why was he, specifically, written into a situation where he’s being told to repent of his sins?

• This is gender, but in the Adam/Amanda episode, Spencer closely aligns himself with Adam. (“Guys like us…”) Ofc I’m aware that Adam is not genderqueer, and that Adam and Amanda are two distinct personalities born of a mental illness, but Spencer being the only character who is able to relate to, identify, and understand an unsub who is simultaneously a man and a woman reads as genderqueer coding, in my opinion.

Derek and Rossi aren’t able to get through because they’re “alpha males,” but I’d note that Emily wasn’t able to establish rapport with Adam, either, indicating that Spencer specifically had a connection to Adam.

• Also gender—being able to relate to and establish rapport with the pregnant woman in the swinger episode when Derek and Rossi couldn’t, because he (again) is a different kind of man than they are

• His whole background as an “outcast” and his tendency to relate to and empathize with people who others don’t understand, tbh. (Fortunately, this is not so common anymore, and a lot of LGBT people thrive in high school, but when Spencer would’ve been growing up, gay teens were often abused and mistreated by their peers.)

• The sexual assault element during the goalpost incident. The fact that he was stripped naked is odd. It resembles a sexual humiliation factor that (very sadly) is often present in real life homophobic hate crimes.

• Having to hide his significant other from his close friends at the risk of their safety. (I know Maeve was a woman, obviously, but keep in mind that this was aired on CBS and they didn’t want him with a man. The storyline mirrors the situation of a lot of gay youth in love.)

• Minimal Loss. Spencer and Emily, who are both heavily queer-coded, were trapped inside a church, facing the wrath of a corrupt sect of fundamentalist Christianity. I’m 100% convinced that the fact that it was those two characters inside of the church is significant

This is all I can think of at the moment, but if anyone has examples they’d like to add, please do!

[grindy-cog]

I’ve been following you for some time and I know you’re replying to anonymous messages, maybe you can help me too. I saw someone’s ask about H50 queerbaiting on another blog I follow for a different fandom, saying that it very bad. I only just started this series, so I don’t know what to think and I'm worried if I should continue to watch. I’m sick of this happening everywhere. Do you agree it was THAT bad?

Dear Anon,

I’m so happy to hear you started watching H50; hope you’re enjoying it this far and thank you so much for following me!❤️

I think I know what post you’re talking about, as I might have just read it myself. I already answered another anon’s question about queerbaiting and queer coding on H50 *here*; it’s a very long post and I am sorry for that, but if you’re looking for a detailed explanation, I think it may be worth your time.

To directly answer the question you’ve asked me though... YES, I would say that queerbaiting on Hawaii Five-0 was extremely bad with Mcdanno; in fact, I have never seen queerbaiting that bad in my entire life before; I don’t think I ever will again, and that’s saying something, considering modern TV shows. I won’t go into too many details below, in case you’ll end up reading my previous reply on this matter, but I often have no words for what had been happening on that show. I mean, sometimes it seemed that the only missing on screen thing for Steve and Danno to be widely considered canon, was a sex scene; and let’s be real, sex doesn’t even always make a non-platonic relationship; nor does sex defy it as a romantic one.

A casual viewer would, at times, likely get genuinely confused about whether or not Mcdanno is canon in that way; or if the characters are ‘just’ extremely close and affectionate friends, with apparently zero verbal control, more often than not. I know this, because I have been a very casual viewer of that show once upon a time too. I know, because the very first episode of H50 I’ve ever seen, left me so dumbfounded about wtf was happening, who was with whom and what that show was supposed to be about really; that I still sometimes don’t know what to think about that particular storyline. I would be worried that I was reading too much into what was presented on the screen then, but I was (un)lucky enough to watch that episode with my openly homophobic brother; and no, it wasn’t just my queerness, seeing something that wasn’t there - some homophobes obviously could see something too. And said episode honestly wasn’t even the gayest one, if you asked me.

I know queerbaiting is a very touchy subject these days and sometimes - whether we like it or not - it can be mainly just a fandom thing; a purely fanon perspective on some relationship. But this isn’t the case with Steve and Danny; there was way too much, actual queerbaiting on H50 for that. Hell, even the very last two minutes of the series were an example of forced straightwashing, though Steve’s character certainly looked anything but in love with a woman standing in front of him. I won’t even comment on Alex O’Loughlin’s opinion on that particular relationship, because that’s another matter entirely.

I’ve recently spoken to someone in rl, who watched the original H50 (1968) years ago; and they said that even the relationship between the Steve and Danno, our Mcdanno is (rather loosely, in some ways) based on, was really ambiguous at times. But that was many (and yet, not so many) years ago and we can’t really speak about obvious queerbaiting in the original version, because back then it would be literally illegal for Steve and Danny to be together, even in Hawaii, where I think homosexuality was made legal in the 1970s. And while that series ended in the early 1980s, there’s no way that anyone would let them happen on the screen back then, especially in that kind of show.

But in the 21st century? In a Hawaii-based TV series? With two leads, who would obviously be totally on board with that? And a fanbase that was mostly supporting of it to happen? That’s a very different story. The truth is, Peter Lenkov and CBS were extremely lucky that H50/Mcdanno fandom was never nowhere as big or as popular, like the ones of SPN/Destiel and BBC Sherlock/Johnlock, for example. Because I don’t think they’d be able to do all that for a bloody decade, without some serious consequences on the show’s ratings alone; or without some (possibly even loud) media backlash, on Mcdanno’s behalf.

I still believe it’s worth to watch this show, though; and not just for Mcdanno. But even if you’ll decide not to finish watching H50, I hope you won’t leave our fandom.

Not sure, if I’ve answered your question.

Take care,

[queenkeeleyhawes]

REPOST: queenkeeleyhawes’s official ranking of keeley’s male character counterparts

**reposting because i added theo (i forgot him the first time), added martin (mutual friends) because i recently watched it. removed david from top tier after i revisited some things. moved sven to top tier because it’s what he deserves. and moved gene hunt lower because let’s be honest, he’s the worst.**

this list includes: husbands, boyfriends, bosses, and other male coworkers. there is some of her work that i left off because her part was too small. i started this list originally at 5 am a couple of weeks ago. these are my personal opinions. please don’t come for me. most are pretty self-explanatory too but i did list reasons anyway. if you happen to disagree with me, that’s fine, but i’m pretty set in my ways so even if we have a nice conversation, you’re unlikely to change my mind. ** SEMI(?) SPOILERS AHEAD**

Top Tier 

Spiros - hello he literally did everything for her and her family. took such good care of them from day one. literally found them a house when they got on the island. and furniture. and a maid. he got her ring back when she sold it to bribe those thugs in series 1. attempted to tutor gerry when she couldn’t find anyone else. held her when she needed a good cry after hugh nearly died and after florence could have died delivering her baby. watched her children while she went back home briefly. built gerry his zoo. the list goes on and on.

Caspar -  saw her for who she was. was impressed by her mind. “you’re beautiful as well as good. one of those things i can't change. the other i never will.” that is all. 

Fabian - *crying emojis* he literally cared so much for her. always wanted to be with her. literally put her aunt into a home and paid for it when it was not cheap. pretty much disowned his eldest daughter for her. after everything still adored her.

Samuel P. - hoo boy it’s a lot. clearly they made a connection. but he respected her and her marriage to not pursue it further when she put an end to it. was so happy for her when she found her son.

Jarvis - he just loved her so much. the lil hotel kissing scene. the way they looked at each other. ugh. we’re not even going to talk about them singing together in rehearsal. i don’t have it in me.

Dick Dewey - i mean hello. good on the eyes. sweetheart. loved her so much. the hand washing scene. the lake scene. saved her father from the bear trap and let some other dude take the credit.  made all the boys apologize to her via song after they humiliated her in church. 

Danny - let her move in with him when he saw how terrible her living arrangements were. so much more. i really wanted them to end up together.

Theo  - obviously, he belongs in Top Tier because he was always just absolutely wonderful to louisa and to gerry (duh) and he always gave her the best advice. like I truly believe they were best friends and though he didn’t include himself, he was definitely part of the “men she loved the most on the island.” also he’s an “honorary woman.” the end.

Sven - literally saved her son from dying. brought her nets for her olives. let gerry borrow a goat. eventually i liked them together and i think they could have worked...but...you know.

Good Tier

Harry - cool dad. loved their relationship. he took care of her.

Tom - they were very good friends and he treated her so well. he genuinely cared for her as an employee. obviously the real chemistry was there but i'm honestly glad they didn’t go in that direction.

Ray - listen i know he’s an ass but he’s the ass that you actually love. and she changed him for the better. i loved the dynamic between him and alex and as they grew as friends. plus dean and keeley just played off each other so nicely.

Daniel - she just wanted him to call about that damn flat but he finally had his little break through by the end so he can stay and obviously matthew and keeley working together is *heart eyes.*

Richard Shaw - he had his issues but he really did love kathleen and even though he was basically in denial about their son and did some things she didn’t like...he was a good man who took care of her.

David - i mean it was literally his job to save her and he did try (we’re not gonna talk about the end of episode 3). i believe he really put her at ease and was making her change her opinions and views on so many things. but there were issues...we can’t deny that.

Mr Morley - we didn’t see them interact much...but he’s fine.

Chris - he’s fine as co-workers go. i think he definitely respected alex eventually but he wasn’t my favorite.

Will (MI-5) - he was fine. a little boring but fine and he literally was not even cute. really zoe??? he did love her. and she did end up having a good life with him.

Bad Tier

Martin Grantham - almost cheated on his wife for revenge. told her potential boss she had mental health problems just to keep her from getting the job. believed a rumor that she had hired a solicitor so he hired one out of spite. umm the bar scene with their son. everything he did with peter. enough said.

Rob Graham - he almost cheated on his wife. he was in slight denial about their son. didn’t want to get a dog. loved her and he clearly fought to stay with her. a few points for that.

Joe M*cb*th - was just kinda there? not horrible but not great.

Steve A - do i really even need to explain? he’s just so infuriating. you’re probably wondering why he’s not lower on this list...but...well just wait until you see the rest.

Mr Royal - he just generally sucks and also he ruined her dessert in that one lil scene and was just horrible. and he fucking slapped her, knocking her to the ground???? no sir.

Peter - the jealousy i mean come on and he terrorized her. nearly killed her best friend. not to mention i’m about 99.8% sure he stole her cat.

Hugh - ugh he was with her to make vasillia jealous. i don’t care what he tried to say. and i hate that he called her angel when that’s what her husband called her. also i think she just liked the idea of them and then realized how quickly it wasn’t going to work out, especially when he wanted her to go back to england when they hadn’t even been there that long and clearly corfu made her happy?!?!? purposefully hurt spiros.

Miles Mollison - it literally took him hearing his mother calling his wife a failure for him to grow a spine?!?!? and dude your wife looked like that *long sigh*

Trash Tier 

Billy - how many times did she have to ask him about getting a job. the jealousy. he didn’t do anything???? he took care of jake so he gets points for that. but he made her feel like crap for it so….bye. and he told tina even though angela didn’t want to tell anyone.

Michael - literally tried to murder her.

Othello - actually murdered her.

Dennis Hamilton  - crazy, jealous. possessive. made her get an abortion. spent all of her money. just gross.

Alec Wilson - hello he literally had another wife and two other children that she knew of. and he only gave her 5 measly fucking pounds….rude. 

Terry Leather - had an affair with another woman. kinda redeemed himself in the end but not really. 

Hallam - literally had an affair with her sister. forced her to take in lotte when she was terrified she’d lose their baby. was trash to his little sister after making a big deal about getting her out of the asylum. was horrible to blanche. was fine (?) with the staff but not really?? 

Sam Webster - had an affair. got another woman pregnant when that’s something his wife wanted again. literally never believed her about anything. blamed her for alice’s death and then later tried to tell her not to blame herself when she was depressed. horrible to their son. just an all around shitty person.

Roger - jealous of j’s power. racist remark about david. tells her something she specifically said she doesn’t care to hear. and let’s be honest he was probably bopping some blonde 20 year old.

Dryden - wouldn’t leave his wife. forced her to get an abortion. literally picked up a 15 year old at some gathering for a bj. gross gross gross.

Gene - grade A asshole. i literally do not understand why people love them together??? he was the one who saved her as a child??? but then almost hooked up with her in the afterlife??? creepy. no matter how many times i re-watch, i cannot find any redeeming qualities in him or any reason why they should be together. also he was a sexist, homophobic, RACIST pig. i don't care it was the 80s...gross. this one you definitely will not be able to fight me on.

[hotseok]

Is it really homophobic to call them out? Aside from the fact that assuming someone's sexuality is not a good thing to do, wouldn't it be bad for wonho if knetz see this? They can be vicious af. But if Wonho really did go to a gay bar, good for him for having fun. Wonho is obviously pro equality so whatever his preferences are, he still has my soul.

Anonymous said:Dami I don’t know if you wanna talk about this issue (if you don’t just delete the ask, it’s okay) but I’ve seen really weird tweets about this whole ‘Wonho gay’ thing like some people are even saying rumours like this could end his career in a country like sk? I hope they’re just exaggerating the whole thing but even if they are I’m honestly a bit worried, especially since cb is in less than 2 weeks

i’m just gonna put these two asks together since they’re on the same topic; and i agree. i feel like edgy stan twt need to comprehend that there is a time and place for everything. wonho gay is not a bad thing of course not, but they also got to think about the context socially and personally.

personally, if he did go to a gay bar and or is gay, outing him without his consent? ew. socially, while it’s wrong of course, it’s very much still a taboo and the impact of the backlash could potentially make him/his group face hardship.

but anyway thats my two cents ig

[mattberry]

i’m watching bb20 w my dad and i don’t follow all the time but i love jc can u let me in on why people don’t like him ? i don’t wanna root for a problematic person ):

most recently, him saying the n word, which you might have seen last sunday (i made a post about this when it happened but the fact that cbs bleeped midget put it on the same level as the n word which it obviously isn’t–reference john mulaney if you don’t agree–and dick i believe tweeted about it as well, saying if jc hadn’t realized what he said was wrong in the first conversation he wouldn’t have just said “the n word” in the second conversation [i would link to this but dick posts so goddamn much twitter stopped loading on july 23 of his feed])

that whole “scooping” thing…  

and just him being an absolute idiot 100% of the time while cbs gives him the funny lovable edit trying to make it like they’re not racist or homophobic when jc is white (he’s Spanish, which is considered white European if i’m not mistaken). people have said on the show (ie not the feeds that i’ve seen, though admittedly i haven’t gotten to watch them that much) that supposedly everyone in the house likes jc and he isn’t anyone’s target (how??? especially if he is as liked as he is - that should spell target for you) but it seems like that’s just because they get to laugh at his accent or how stupid he seems

update: apparently he punched rachel in the face????? hfrifnejfn seemingly by accident but still

[dogsliampaynedoesntinstagram]

How in god’s name is it Harry’s fault that Ben and James have CBS connections through the late late show. They can’t exactly get the head of something like that.... fired? They’re just trying to make a living, as you do. How would they know about specificifies like that? Will you ever stop goddamn reaching in your life and maybe start discussing how Liam is working DIRECTLY with openly homophobic people (Migos) or Louis with actual misogynists (Cowell)? I truly do not hear sumn

I don’t think this attempt to both minimise and attack others is successful.  Either strategy would be more effective by itself, although probably not work for a number of reasons.

1. I didn’t blame Harry for anything Les Moonves did.

2. I’ve written quite a lot about Migos. 

3. Your idea about what working with someone ‘directly’ means is obviously based entirely on weird defensive politics -and not a consistent or principled analysis.

4. Ben Winston voted for Boris Johnson. (only tangentially relevant here, but I haven’t mentioned it all day - and that feels wrong).

[jmsa1287]

How 'Big Brother' Rejuvenated Itself with its Celebrity Edition

Ahead of the finale tonight, i wrote about how good “Celebrity Big Brother” has been and how the reality show’s proper edition could learn a thing or two from it.

"Big Brother" is one of the most-talked about TV shows of the year. Omarosa Manigault-Newman is making headlines along with Donald Trump. And no, it's not 2004.

After nearly two decades of being on the air, the CBS reality show is currently finding itself in the national spotlight - several years after the peak days of reality TV; when the drama of non-scripted fights and voting people out of games were still a novelty to broad audiences.

The first edition of "Celebrity Big Brother" has been nothing short of a success for the franchise and the network, which struggles to remain relevant as streaming companies and cable channels dominate the zeitgeist. The last time "Big Brother" made major news was back in 2013 with its 15th season - and for the wrong reasons. Houseguests were caught making racist and homophobic comments on the live feeds, which allow fans to watch the players 24/7. This time around, however, the reality show has received praise from fans who are responding to its all celebrity cast and its abbreviated and heightened season.

Normal seasons of "Big Brother" are slow-burning marathons that ask a lot from its audience. It airs three nights a week for the duration of the summer or about three months. (The longest season was "Big Brother 18," which unfolded over 99 days and 42 episodes.) It starts with about 17 players and they're whittled down through a series of competitions (Head of House Hold, Power of Veto), evictions and backstabbing until one player is left. After a jury of evicted houseguest deliberate, a winner is crowned and takes home a $500,000 prize.

"Celebrity Big Brother," which started on Feb. 7 and ends Feb. 25, is just under three weeks long and began with just 11 (famous) contestants. Everyone voted out during in this game will be on an non-sequestered jury. The rapid-fire pace of this season, where two players are voted out each week, is proving to be a delight amongst die-hard superfans - bite size "Big Brother" is more digestible and exciting than the drawn out three month game. Not only are things moving quickly here, but game play and strategy is concentrated. Several winners of "Big Brother" proper have used the long game to their advantage by laying low for the first half of the game, avoiding conflict and keeping quiet - obviously, this makes for boring TV. In the second half, they win challenges, build alliances and do what they need to do in order to make it to the end. With only a few weeks in "Celebrity Big Brother," the stars don't have time to hide and are forced to play out-in-front games.

In addition to superfans lauding "Celebrity Big Brother," casual viewers are also responding to it. Created as counterprograming to the Olympics, which airs on NBC, "Celebrity Big Brother" has held solid ratings numbers over the last few weeks. The response to the show has been so positive that Julie Chen, who hosts every season of "Big Brother," said the celebrity edition of the franchise could become an annual event.

"With these ratings, it did what we hoped as opposed to running repeats of the current slate of shows," she recently told Entrainment Weekly.

Of course, bringing in the casual viewers is most likely the celebrity cast, which includes Miss Columbia Ariadna Gutierrez, "Real Houswives" star Brandi Glanville, MMA athlete Chuck Liddell, Big Time Crush singer James Maslow, "The Cosby Show" actress Keshia Knight Pulliam, Tony Award-winning actress Marissa Jaret Winokur, NBA star Metta World Peace, "RuPaul's Drag Race" judge Ross Mathews and "American Pie" actress Shannon Elizabeth. But the show's biggest draw is likely Omarosa Manigault-Newman, who made headlines late last year for suddenly exiting the White House. She says she quit, the Trump administration said they fired her for a fourth time, referencing the times she was booted from President Donald Trump's reality show "The Apprentice," where she first gained fame as an iconic reality TV villain in the early 00s.

Omarosa's stint on "Celebrity Big Brother" has been described as an opportunity for her to rebuild her image, serving as a platform for her to spill the tea on any Trump administration secrets she may have. Over the last few weeks, Omarosa gave the producers and the viewers what they wanted, dishing about her experience working for the Trump administration, sparking mainstream media picking up her sound bites about President Trump and Vice President Mike Pence. Even the "Big Brother" fans who tune in for the strategy and gameplay surely can't help themselves being tantalized by some political hot goss.

Though people may have initially tuned in to watch Omarosa, viewers likely stayed with "Big Brother" because of its fantastic cast, all of whom are much older than a typical season of the show. The celebs are hungry for the money, which they keep, and no one is interested in a showmance. Unsurprisingly, the celebs are also great in the diary room - where they give off-screen confessionals; Omarosa is demure and coy, Mathews is direct and sassy, Maslow is cocky and charming.

"Celebrity Big Brother" has not been a perfect season of reality TV - like any first installment, the show is in its trial and error phase, working out kinks on the fly, hoping to improve future seasons. The live Monday episodes could have been incredible and riveting TV. These episodes find the celebs competing for the Power of Veto on live TV before evicting their fellow houseguests. What could have been heart-pounding and shocking TV, ended up being grave disappointments as both Pulliam and Metta World Peace decided to quit on these Monday episodes, totally robbing the viewers of enjoyment. Also "Celebrity Big Brother" would have also worked better if it was actually a little bit longer - another week or so would allow the end game to play out. As it stands now, the finale will feature the final five houseguests, who will battle it out in a two-hour episode.

Nevertheless, "Celebrity Big Brother" is a fresh rejuvenation of one of the first major reality TV shows in the U.S. The "Big Brother" franchise has experimented with format before (the spinoff "Big Brother: Over the Top" was an online-only version of the show that aired in 2016), but it feels like producers struck gold here, where an abbreviated season similar to "Celebrity Big Brother" can be used for an all winners season or anther all stars season. With a few tweaks, this new phase of "Big Brother" could yield fantastic results.

[marastriker]

Greaseball and Dinah have two kids, a boy and a girl. Your typical nuclear family. The girl is older, and her name is Norma Jean. She's a first class passenger car. She has black hair like her dad, with little blonde streaks. She resembles Marilyn Monroe, hence her name. She's a little bit of a butt to her younger brother and has a special talent for impersonating other's voices, leading to some confusing prank calls 🤣.

The boy's name is Presley and he 100% resembles his dad (since he's a little diesel as well). Becoming a parent has really made GB into a better person cause he doesn't want to treat his kids the way his father treated him. (His father was an abusive, alcoholic, homophobic, toxic masculine dude who beat his mom. They got divorced and GB's dad was able to paint his mother out to be unfit and got custody. GB left as soon as it was legal for him to do so.) He would die for his kids and supports them in every single possible way.

Electra and CB (also being better people after becoming parents) have three kids; two twin boys who are electrics. One, Armani, is super boujee and takes after Electra. He's a little on the autistic spectrum, but is super smart and competitive and can never relax. He always gets upset over the littlest things, like Presley scoring a point higher than him on a test. The other, Axel, is a loveable dork. He's not as smart, but is super sweet and has so much love to give. Sometimes he feels like he lives in his brother's shadow, because he's not as attractive or smart, but his parents constantly remind him how much he is loved.

The girl is a hot pink caboose named Rose. She takes after CB in the way that she looks (curly strawberry blonde hair, freckles, etc) and in her tendancies (she gets excited over seeing scrap metal in decommissioned frieght yards or the bones of dead animals but only because she likes to imagine what that being was like. She always says she wants to be an archeologist when she grows up). She and Norma Jean are BEST friends and they love pranking people and watching horror movies. Rose is just a kid and doesn't get why people freak out when she quotes Sixth Sense: "I see dead people!" Electra and CB have to remind her that not everyone gets her references.

When they're older, Rose and Presley start dating, much to GB's chagrin, but he eventually learns to accept the relationship when he sees Presley looking at Rose the same way he looks at Dinah. That's how he knows it's real.

Extra stuff.... when they decided to have kids, Electra had CB swear off crashing trains and gave him a new outlet: art. Buys him all the art supplies under the sun, and it turns out CB is an incredible artist. His early stuff very obviously was a way to vent out trauma, but he starts making stuff for/inspired by Electra and the kids eventually too.

Joule is the favorite, fun auntie. Wrench took a refresher course in pediatrics to prepare in taking the best care of the kids' health. Krupp and KW are proud uncles, but don't know how to express it. Volta is the strict auntie that makes sure the kids don't get into trouble. Purse spoils the kids with toys and shopping trips and spa days.

When Rose and Presley get married, CB walks her down the aisle and it's the proudest he's ever felt in his whole life.

But Dinah and GB are the MVP's when it comes to good, homecooked meals. Electra and CB mainly order out, but sometimes CB can put together a nice meal with a few tips from Dinah. And the repression in setting the kitchen on fire

There's more but this is getting a little long 😅

not me and @little-diesel-gb coming up with electraboose and greasedinah fankids and their whole backstories/life stories

(if you want me to elaborate I will)

[heterokatedison]

Look I'm absolutely not trying to hate or anything and really agree with your post about more representation in shows but something I don't quite understand is when I'm part of both the wayhaught and kadena fandom but am constantly being told I need to watch The Bold Type bc of its wlw poc rep which I totally agree with but I feel like a lot of the wayhaught fandom already watches The Bold Type, a lot of people I follow were wayhaught blogs and are now kadena blogs

ok so I accidentally wrote a super long winded response to this and it’s like four thirty in the morning so it probably doesn’t even make sense and I’m sorry and you definitely don’t need to feel obligated to read it all but first I want to say that you phrased this message really nicely and I appreciate it and everything else is under the break

there definitely is a big overlap which is great, but I wasn’t trying to say “every person who likes [x show] needs to be watching [y show] too” because I think people should watch what they’re interested in and not sacrifice their time/money/mental health to make other people happy but also because in the grand scheme of things the views from tumblr alone aren’t likely to save a show from cancellation. I just meant that our community as a whole should be examining how we interact with rep/shows with rep if that makes sense??? particularly when it comes to how willingly/quickly we’ll watch something. some people (but obviously not all) will drop everything and marathon a couple seasons of show to get to white gay content (which I understand, because I’ve done that too) and then pressure everyone else to do the same regardless of whether or not they’re interested in it, but, when presented with lgbt characters of color, respond with “idk it’s not really my thing” “I’ll watch it at some point” “it’s not explicit enough” (all real things things I’ve seen said about the bold type, one day at a time, and the get down, respectively). so these stories already aren’t being as highly prioritized, but then we’ll also demand more from them at the same time.

with the exception of sk*m I watch(ed) all the shows I listed in the post, so in a matter of the past few weeks I’ve seen the wayhaught cheating storyline (understandably) get a lot of negative feedback but most of it has been to the effect of “I don’t like the normalization of cheating/how tropey it is” rather than anger directed to the characters themselves, whereas with kadena there seems to be a lot of people calling it bad representation specifically because adena hadn’t broken up with coco before kissing kat (even though she admitted to it and broke up with her the next day) and demonizing adena especially, despite nikohl’s tweet suggesting that coco was potentially dangerous. I mean I’m super against cheating but I can understand both of those situations to some extent, but there are still other people holding kat and adena to a higher standard of what constitutes “good representation,” which is unfair, particularly when wlwoc are rarer to see.

another example is how people reacted to lexa’s death on the h*ndred vs poussey’s death on oitnb. and when I say this I’m honestly not trying to diminish how bad or painful the lexa situation was for people because it was absolutely disgusting and unacceptable (especially when you take the baiting and interactions with fans into account) and people had a right to react the way they did. and they took their righteous anger and turned it into a global movement, and charitable actions, and giant billboards calling the cw out, which is beyond incredible. but then just a couple months later, oitnb killed poussey, a black lesbian, and people were less angry with that than they were about being spoiled for the show. an all white group of writers chose to kill off a black lesbian in a way that deliberately paralleled the real life murder of eric garner in some hamfisted attempt at social commentary, after months of discussing the psychological toll of the byg trope, not even a week after a massive homophobic hate crime that primarily affected poc, and not only were people largely unbothered by it, they were actively DEFENDING IT because “it sent a message.” except people who don’t care about real police brutality aren’t going to care about fictional police brutality, and even if they did, representation shouldn’t be sacrificed to teach oppressors a lesson.

and then after lexa was killed how many of us followed alycia to fear the walking dead??? (I did) we’re willing to watch a show that perpetuated the byg trope spun off of a show that perpetuated the byg trope (and I’m not even going to get into the way women and poc are disproportionately killed off in that franchise) because we like this actress who played a lesbian in a different show. and that’s not an isolated incident: wlw flocked to supergirl during season 2 for gay content, accidentally discovered katie mcgrath in the process, and suddenly the merlin fandom saw a revival four years after its series finale. but we knew at least a couple months in advance that laverne cox would be playing a trans character on doubt, and people didn’t turn up in huge numbers to watch it, and it got canned after two episodes. TWO. cbs yanked it off the air and didn’t even burn off the rest of the season until six months later. and I’m not gonna lie, it wasn’t a great show (I mostly watched it at first because I like laverne cox, but it did improve over the course of the season imo), but cancelling it after two episodes is outrageous. there was no outrage from tumblr, though. even now if you check the tags there’s like two or three posts about it. and a trans woc in a main role on network television was so important!!! and laverne deserved so much better!!!

personally I blame a lack of support from the network more than anything: cbs didn’t promote doubt like it should have and axed it before it could find an audience. netflix didn’t promote the get down like it should have and released it at bad times. and like I said earlier, views from tumblr most likely won’t save a show in the long run. eyewitness and in the flesh prove that. but at least with them there were real genuine efforts to extend/revive them. it’s been three years since itf was cancelled and people are STILL petitioning to bring it back. and we showed that tumblr campaigns actually CAN have an impact: that’s why sense8 is getting a two-hour finale!!! between that and the “lgbt fans deserve better” project our community has shown that we’re relentless and stubborn and dedicated when we want to be. but the fact that we don’t always want to be is really sad.

[abortionado]

but neither of them are written as lgbt canonically? it’s not homophobic of viewers to just watch the show and go with what canon says even if it was homophobic of cbs to make the writers write out their sga. or are you saying that people being like extremely opposed to thinking abt those characters in that way is homophobic? (coming from someone who is queer and thinks reid is no and emily is a lesbian)

Yeah okay so I don’t think anyone has to write fics about mlm Spencer/wlw Emily or anything like that, obviously, but my opinion is simply that if you want to side with a homophobic network over the gay man who created the show and had visions for these two characters as Queer, you’re making that choice

It IS more about opposition, but I don’t think you have to be “extremely opposed,” I think any opposition to the concept speaks volumes. I think if you’re not open to the idea of Spencer liking men/Emily liking women, you’re probably weird

[jforsythia]

It’s funny that you brought that up, because I very recently began watching BB6 for the first time all the way through, and I was thinking similarly. It was super uncomfortable to watch how blasé the houseguests were with talking like that/CBS was for airing it. The feeds were way worse (of course, no surprise). Obviously CBS knew they could get away with it - those attitudes were more “””acceptable””” because of the racist homophobic crapshow the social climate was back in 2005. Granted, I was 9 that year- but even then I was cognizant enough of the nasty things being said about gay/muslim people.

ANYWAY the point of this was that I got curious & scoured around the internet to see if I could find ANY call out posts or news articles about it, and found a grand total of 1 (I'm sure there’s gotta be more out there somewhere) that criticizes CBS for not showing Ivette’s overt racism and islamophobia directed towards Kaysar (calling him a sand n***** amongst other things). 

And it’s crazy/sad that none of that blew up, cause the bbfans would never let that shit slide today

i tried rewatching season 6 last night and within the first 3 episodes there were several very homophobic and xenophobic remarks made i just could not do it i genuienly dont know how cbs thought any of that was quirky or funny to air??