#cause like obviously people had different view about belos

[alithetiredartist]

Post canon boiling isles politics fights are probably so funny. Like “NO THIS TEENAGERS IS EVIL” “NO THEY WERE THE GOOD ONES” whatever the boiling isles equivalent to thanksgiving is probably like hell

[mdhwrites]

you've said the collector isn't a kid bc he's been alive for thousands of years, but isn't he still mentally (and physically for that matter) a kid though? or at least that's how i think the show wanted us to perceive him as

(though the show never makes it clear if the collector's species just age much more slowly than others, or if being trapped for so long caused this specific collector to never age during that time)

for the record i do 100% agree abt the collector being a monster, so i'm not trying to argue with you on that/excuse the collector's actions just bc """""he's a kid"""""

So... This is one of those things that can't really be proven or disproven. On the one hand, you have the fact that you do not need to be mentally a child to be childish. Also, you can also be a child physically but have had to grow up quickly so you have the worldview of an adult. Not only that but we don't know how his people age. He was apparently old enough to work with his brothers (he knew their guidebook on genocide) but... Apparently a couple thousand years hasn't changed him whatsoever.

The thing that stops me most from claiming he is a child... Is the Draining Spell. In fact, even more than his lines about playing in bones, how Belos likes to torture the Grimmwalkers, destroy them, etc. like that that proves he knows what death is and is kind of extremely evil with how much glee he takes of all of this, just the fact that he KNOWS the draining spell at all is not a good sign.

That is not a spell a kid learns. That is not a spell a kid is taught. MAYBE some very evil or naive kids might accidentally read it but to be able to regurgitate after having been away from such books for literally thousands of years? Let alone to be able to even theorize with someone else on how to do it on a race of people that didn't exist before you were imprisoned. That means you mastered that fucker. You are the draining king! You sapped the magic out of people for FUN. That is how much you like this spell.

Also, if we want to claim he's just a dumb kid who doesn't like death or hurting people, doesn't like mass genocide like his brothers did... What the fuck was the conversation with Belos? What was ANY of them?

"I wish for a spell that can kill all witches upon this land. To make them extinct."

"Oh, you just mean make them sleepy, right?"

"...What?"

Belos is not exactly a subtle person at the height of his ability, let alone as Philip who BARELY is even okay at his job. He used mercenaries and two people who obviously were ready to believe anything he said. MASTER MANIPULATOR! So how is it that the Collector's childish views made him okay with this? It's not like the witches imprisoned him? Hell, he was willing to work with the Titan Trappers who VERY explicitly wanted to murder Titans for him but he just calls them weird. Like... Collector, you had literally NOTHING else to do than talk to these two people. Did you literally never listen to ANYTHING they said?

It doesn't make the Collector come off as a child. It just makes it so S2 Collector is literally a different character. The two are entirely incompatible. Even if they acted the same, the knowledge base and morality of the two Collectors is too severe for them to co-exist.

BUT. Like I said: I can't firmly prove that the Collector does not have a child's mind because while S2 Collector absolutely is just childish and gullible, he is not naive nor is he a child, except in physical appearance. S3 Collector though? That's a lot harder of a sell. He literally just wants to have fun and friends and is too self centered to care about if other people are having fun too. His fun prioritizes everything. That... Honestly still isn't actually a kid's point of view. Kids aren't inherently monsters. They do feel bad for their actions, even if they want to be justified in having fun. Admittedly, the Collector does EVENTUALLY do this as well so it's still kind of there but really awkwardly when put beside even everything else in S3.

After all, he presents King with the same book that has his brother's instructions to kill everything. A kid would not pull that out. They wouldn't risk for a SECOND that being seen. At least... Not a ten year old like this. Not unless we want to say that the Collector is a literal toddler, which is not the vibe TOH is going for. No, he's old enough to know what he's doing is wrong, just not old enough to actually do something about it I GUESS.

You're not supposed to think about it, like most elements in the show. Just like how you aren't supposed to think about how Amity bullied Willow for YEARS. Or how Hunter has probably killed wild witches in the past. There are inherent, core parts of these characters that you're just supposed to ignore so that they can be redeemed and given hugs because they never actually did anything wrong. So the show can tell you they're good people, rather than addressing and showing how they've stopped being bad people.

So yeah, we can argue about if The Collector is or isn't meant to be a child. It doesn't really matter at the end of the day, especially when good luck being actually able to say one way or another. I still won't claim it. I will just claim that he is a monster before he is ANYTHING else.

And I think that's way more important.

======+++++======

It is fun how TOH takes a shot at redeeming the gems in SU and how the fandom rallies around killing the villain being TOH's final subversion when the Collector is RIGHT THERE. You know what also redeemed one character who then went into personally decided exile while also killing the big bad but did it way better? Amphibia with Andrias and the Core. *sigh* Just a side tangent from my Discord recently I wanted to share.

I have a public Discord for any and all who want to join!

I also have an Amazon page for all of my original works in various forms of character focused romances from cute, teenage romance to erotica series of my past. I have an Ao3 for my fanfiction projects as well if that catches your fancy instead. If you want to hang out with me, I stream from time to time and love to chat with chat.

A Twitter you can follow too

And a Kofi if you like what I do and want to help out with the fact that disability doesn’t pay much.

[imsosocold]

People are saying the “ new” Collector is better because now he’s more than a kid with too much power. Personally I always thought the seeming contrast between physical and mental age was intentional, if the Collector could even be measured by human metrics.  But whatever, I actually do find the “ kid with too much power” concept interesting with how it could mirror Luz and Philip’s journeys.

At the start of the series Luz viewed the Isles through a fantasy book setting and her arc was her learning that the Isles wasn’t like that, it was its whole own separate place with its own rules and culture. Those who lived there were just like her and that her actions there hold heavy, real life consequences. Luz reached these conclusions with help of the positive influences around her. If Eda, King, Hooty, Gus, and Willow hadn’t been there for her, if she had been left to fend for herself, I think Luz would had drawn different conclusions.

Philip, on the other hand, couldn't separate the Boiling Isles from the Bible stories he was told and the tales of witches that were spread in his village. He also was forced to wander and fend for himself in the Isles alone from a relatively young age.  Someone Philip had previously turned to for guidance was now going against everything he’d ever taught him, it must’ve been like the cautionary tales they both would have been told about. Obviously Philip was very negatively influenced by his surroundings and the people within them. But recently, at least, there’s been a shift in thinking. Maybe it was from seeing the human realm and how it changed but it’s obvious through Philip’s interaction with “ Caleb” and " the Grimwalkers" that he does doubt the legitimacy of the stories he’d been told and thus his own beliefs. With his plan and his confidence in it falling apart,  so does Belos’s body.

The Collector I thought had no influence in contrast to the both of them.  Going back to how the Collector was said to be THE  child of stars and not star people, the Collector would hypothetically have nothing to watch over them, no set goals or expectations,  left in the cold and uncaring universe they were created from.  Lacking any reference, they’d just treat the Isles as a form of entertainment, something to explore and play with. What else would it be? In doing so the Collector caused irreversible harm to its inhabitants through the Titans. But nobody bothered to explain anything to them, he was locked away harshly instead.

But now turns out he’s also a victim of negative influence via “ bad Collectors” ( weird for Dana to portray almost the majority of a whole species as bad ™ when she’s refrained from doing that for all the other species, isn’t that mindset the same as Belos’s) and it’s implied the Collector didn’t hurt the Titans at all. He’s STILL is a kid with power, despite what others may say, but just a less interesting version that brings nothing new to the conversation. I didn’t want him to be meant to be same as others, I wanted him to not be meant to be anything.

But I’ll be satisfied if the Collector does what Belos never did: grow up. I want them to realize their actions are part of a perpetual cycle and that while he recognizes they were negatively influenced by a lot of forces he also did a lot of fucked up shit of their own violation.  I want him to pinkie promise King they will play again but they’re not ready yet to be his friend. I want the Collector to hold himself responsible even if other characters don’t, even if the fandom won't. It won’t be fun but it what he wants to do.

(Shock, I know because me not wanting the Collector’s  more negative qualities to be retconned or ignored clearly means I want them tortured and  killed. I want  them to  be redeemed and I expected him to be from the start but I’m not happy in doing so that Dana and co took away what made them so interesting to me in the first place.)

[i-love-hobbies]

Eda may have more trauma than what we've seen on screen - theory

Her seeing a lot of death I think is a fact.

She has been a criminal for three decades and she ate a dude while being so chill about it. For someone to be this chill they have to have seen a lot of death and recovered from it.

She is extremely reckless like on another level when she doesn't (or refuses to) recognize the danger. We've seen her permanent record. She also got caught by Warden Wrath. She almost had Amity stabbed with a lot of spikes. She fell for a scam (for thirty years she has been a scammer) for an elixir, cause of cards.

She got herself scammed kinda on purpose just so she can prove to be better than Lilith. She actually got caught by the fun police.

She fell for Luz's apple blood signs (how bad is that problem?). She punched a guard. She almost had Amity get blasted. She told King to echolocate the lake (I know they didn't get caught and that she was expecting that as she has experience with the coven but why risk it?). She had to hit the fool's blood.

Now obviously the roots of this problem come from her parents. Her mom was probably very ignorant of her behaviour and her dad fired fireworks in the house (In my opinion this was her second transformation ever. So my problem is "in the house".)

Ok so her growing up with this problem makes sense but she has shown to respect others' opinion. She respects a fourteen year old from another dimension without natural magic and a kid which till now didn't have magic and she has no idea which species he is from.

Yes telling her "just follow the rules" like Lilith and teachers did would not work but Raine seems like the person who would recognise why rules are there in the first place and straight up say:

- You want Bump to allow you to study every track. Well don't have him completely dependent on the Emporer's coven money by breaking everything.

Now this obviously didn't work immediately, but it should have planted a seed, right?

How has she not grown out of her biggest flaw? It's been near five decades. For five decades she refuses to change?

What was stopping her? The guards she can mop the floor with? Yes she was in isolation, because of her choices, curse and wild magic but again didn't do anything till now about it.

1. Isolation 2. Bigger problem with the curse and talking to people 3. Bigger isolation

Again she didn't break the cycle for three decades. Why?

She has been shown to be very adaptive. She probably had to change at least a bit to find herself with someone with stage fright, to rebel against her mom's cures and find an elixir, to be able to so drastically change her point view of the coven system, that she accidentally inspires someone to rebel. And is overall a very mature person when it comes to her giving advice.

Then she completely pauses and refuses to change in any way. Refuses to learn from her mistakes. Refuses to learn how to manage her curse better. Just stops.

Then Luz shows up and she is adaptive again.

What happened in between? She never needed to learn to be adaptive or to put herself in other people's shoes cause she already knew how, someone just needed to show her affection.

Now here is my theory. She was apart of a rebellion or better yet she led one at some point in the past and before it and while being in it, she had overcame her reckless problem thanks to Raine.

We have seen the difference between what she was going through while she was a scammer and while she was actually proactive in a pretty small rebellion. It was a big difference. She probably thinks Raine is death. At first it felt kinda safe and then BAM.

Also her punching the guard for some stranger, her line "Only truths!" which as pizzaboat pointed out is just her saying "I'll tell you only if you catch me just like always!" her leadership when it came to Raine's rebellion that fell cause Raine fell for a trap.

Also I should probably point out Raine's rebellion as it feels relevent. I think they had a family or close friends that died in this thirty years (maybe in Eda's rebellion, maybe cause of stuff that was curable back in the savage ages when a lot of plants weren't extinct).

And then they finally decided to act while before they were just trying to join the ranks as they're plan was to destroy the system from the inside so minimum people would die, but they finally really started recruiting people, recently.

On the other hand I think Eda, after finding out how her sister was treated and probably distanced herself even more from her, cause of the fear of the curse hurting her even more and going to the forbidden part of the library, found the author of the unauthorized history book, who was probably in the rebellion that formed immediately as Belos became emporer (there is no way such a rebellion didn't exist).

From them she learned exactly what she was getting herself into and what was actually effective and started learning how to form a rebellion, before even becoming officially a criminal.

Also I think she probably used a fake identity so her family doesn't get attacked ones she became a wild witch. I'm imagining dark green clothes with red eye contacts and no hair.

While being in the rebellion she probably learned a lot of skills and went through a lot of trauma, as death was kinda normal, with the help of her mentor and her new found apple blood problem.

I think the rebellion also succesided in something but mostly it failed miserably and the rebellion was destroyed with her probably the only survivor (at the very least her mentor dies).

Also I'm still begging for an Eda vs Belos fight which is definitely not happening outside of a flashback.

Also if hundreds really did die Infront of her in the matter of a week, maybe even in a second if Belos came personally. She probably needed someone who fulfilled the role of a therapist and probably for a long time no one had heard of her or her other identity as she was hiding in the forest cause of the flashbacks she had.

Not sure what happened to the therapist but I wouldn't be surprised if they're dead.

This combined with her nightmares I think is something she is still recovering from by refusing to recognize danger, by trying to escape reality. By being so reckless so she can feel better and have fun always.

Anyway if I'm right imagen how hard s1ep18/19 and s2ep7 hit her.

[sepublic]

Luz’s Self-Punishment?

           I actually think that like Lilith, Luz has a tendency to overtly punish herself for mistakes, she’s just… WAY more productive and efficient about actually fixing the situation, even at the cost of herself- Maybe even especially because of it!

           I say this because Luz makes the understandable mistake of crashing Owlbert, who was fully willing to indulge in Luz’s antics during Escape of the Palisman by taking her to the Glandus game. And obviously Owlbert is also justifiably hurt and maybe reluctant to reconnect with Luz… But it’s also worth observing that Luz is clearly beating herself up mentally over her mistake, she doesn’t hesitate to throw herself into the Bat Queen’s trials and even risk her life to rescue Owlbert!

           And, obviously- Luz is a very impulsive kind of person in general, incredibly brave, and would do anything for her friends. But I am concerned about Luz possibly beginning to see herself as like, a burden, or even someone who keeps hurting people even when she tries to help them… Especially when they tell her not to. Take for example, Luz turning Willow’s memory photo back up because she still wants her and Amity to reconnect… and it leads to Willow’s mind almost being destroyed. Luz’s efforts DO pay off in the end; However, Wing it like Witches has Luz recklessly challenge Boscha to a Grudgby game, over Willow’s honor.

           That’s fine as it is… But the problem is that Luz says that Willow is challenging Boscha. And I think this is a scenario where Luz legit thought she was doing what was best for Willow, that this was of course what Willow wanted… And while she was justifiably mad, I think Luz may have projected some of her own anger onto Willow by assuming she felt the same way, while also seeing an opportunity to play out her Azura fantasies through a Grudgby match; Hence why moments before Boscha drops trash on Willow, Luz looks VERY intrigued by Amity pointing out that Boscha only listens to Grudgby… Amity wasn’t at all suggesting Luz challenge her to a game, but Luz is remembering that Azura movie she brought up earlier, and getting ideas.

           So when Luz does recognize she made a mistake… I think she’s just a tad too eager to both take on ALL of the responsibility and repercussions, but also doesn’t do too much to vouch for herself when Boscha starts attacking. Now, you could argue that this is just Luz being kind of impulsive and thoughtless, not thinking of herself in a genuinely forgetful way, while also not anticipating Boscha to be THAT intense; But I have to wonder if Luz will sometimes shoulder the blame and burden of her mistakes too much. Just as Amity did when she cut herself off from Grudgby after accidentally injuring Boscha and Amelia that one time… And it’s interesting that Luz is inspired to take all of the blame after Amity recounts this story; And it’s Amity who realizes what’s up and thus goes out to get Willow’s help.

           Or, take Witches before Wizards! Luz enrolls in Adegast’s Quest, wanting to play out her fantasies, and does so on her own, on her own terms… Ideally only Luz should be in danger, if any comes around; And yet Eda and King still get involved to rescue Luz, and Luz finds out that her getting into this quest was what endangered them in the first place, because she was meant to be a hostage! Then we have Agony of a Witch; Eda tells Luz to just mind her own business and be happy, and not concern herself. But not only is Luz legit scared for Eda… She also expresses a desire to ‘pay her back’, as if Luz thinks the happiness she provides isn’t enough. As if Luz feels she’s inadequate, perhaps a burden…

           Which, matches with Luz being the child of Camila, who’s single and occupied with the VERY time-intensive job of being a nurse, and is already stressful as-is. I think Luz quietly taught herself to not try to be a burdern on Camila… Or at least thought that was what she became, when her mother agreed to send her to Reality Camp. This is her mom, who objectively loves her and is supposed to, and likely was the only one supporting and indulging in Luz’s interests for her entire life. So when Luz DOES meet Eda and King, Willow and Gus, or Amity… While she’s still very much herself in a lot of ways, an utter weirdo and a cryptid;

           I AM concerned that Luz is going to be too conscious of the impact she has on others, a bit too much. She went ahead with trying to help Eda’s curse despite Eda telling her not to… And it led to a disastrous heist at Belos’ castle that led to Eda being captured and losing all of her magic, permanently. Luz let Willow and Gus help her in the heist, and they got in trouble as well… And I’m afraid that maybe Luz is beginning to think that any time she tries to help others, she just makes things worse. And/or, Luz feels like she should do things on her own so her loved ones don’t get involved… But even when she tries to in Witches before Wizards, her actions directly lead to Eda and King being captured.

           Am I saying Luz is a bad or thoughtless person? Absolutely not- She can be a bonehead sometimes, but all of her mistakes are completely understandable. Luz needs to remember that a lot of her friends chose to get involved for Luz’s sake, they mutually care for her and vice-versa, she is by no means a burden and her own presence lights up their world. Eda reassures Luz that she chose to sacrifice herself for the girl, and hopefully the advice will stick there… But even so, Luz is a fourteen-year-old who was ostracized for a LONG time.

          She’s no doubt been conditioned to think of herself as a screw-up who hurts people… Hurts her mother by lying to her, Luz should’ve been honest when she had the chance; Hurting Amity by accidentally reading her diary when she just wanted to be friends… Making a statement that Viney and the others justifiably take out-of-context, but Luz interprets this not just as Viney and the others being valid in their initial fears; She thinks it means she HAS done wrong and hurt people, and so she accepts Viney’s rejection without a second thought and really lets it get to her.

           I’ve seen others speculate that Luz has Rejection Sensitive Dysphoria, and I really think this could be the case? Luz normally is herself, but lately, when things suggest otherwise… Luz starts to doubt her world-views, at least in application to herself- For others she’ll always vouch for them! But it takes a lot to love oneself… Take for example, Luz clearly berating herself for being too forward with Amity when she tries to initially approach her in Lost in Language, perhaps acting on some confirmation bias; That if Luz fails, then clearly this means she shouldn’t have tried in the first place, and of course nobody is interested in her.

           Luz knows to unapologetically be herself and encourage others to, and then fully support them… But does she expect a lot of support herself? Is Luz resigned to the idea of being rejected either way, so she just goes ahead with who she is… And just waits to see what people DO respond to her, without getting her hopes up? Luz gives it a try, see what happens- And if they don’t respond, alas. If they DO respond… New friend, and Luz can get a bit carried away. Like her plan for Willow to sneak into Hexside and get a better grade… Luz was also legitimately altruistic, but I certainly hope that Luz doesn’t blame herself for getting Willow into trouble, especially since Willow ended up in the Plant Track because of her. Like Eda, Luz has accepted being herself unapologetically and not needing the approval of others- But Eda was also clearly lonely for a while too, having to wait for fellow weirdoes to resonate with her and reciprocate. For Luz, I imagine it’s a very different scenario with just passively waiting for someone to respond to your open invitations about who you are…

           …VS actively WANTING someone, wanting them to accept you, etc., hence Luz’s apprehension about confessing to Camila. And maybe this could lead to some dynamic between her and Amity, where Luz doesn’t know how to handle actively desiring a connection with a specific person that may or may not fully reciprocate her… Luz loves intensely and affectionately and she focuses on making others happy so they don’t suffer like her; Is there the fear, the resignation that they won’t return the same? And that’s okay because they’re already doing so much for Luz just by tolerating a screw-up like her and her mistakes…? Coupled with how stressed Amity is and the abuse she has, and Luz might be afraid that Amity won’t ever feel the same way- So Luz should just be content with what she has, and then not move forward. Don’t get her hopes up.

           Believe me, I don’t find this at all contradictory with my past takes of Luz as being someone who constantly asks why can’t she have it all, both for herself and others… I think she’s rightfully defiant and demanding in that self-respecting way, thanks to Eda especially. But when it comes to emotional love and whatnot, that kind of intimate connection, unconditional kindness and favors… I’m not sure if Luz ever expects that from others, nor does she ask it of them? It’s of course because she’s so kind and selfless towards people, her own demands and challenges towards the system are also into consideration of others just like her.

           But maybe it’s because Luz is partially demanding because she sees it as helping others in a roundabout way… Or she’s only ever like this with strangers, with people she expects to already not think much of her, to not accept her, so Luz doesn’t have too much qualms with trying to be all perfect and subdued for them… But for people who DO accept Luz, it suddenly feels like a lot of pressure and responsibility, because she’s not used to this. She doesn’t want to screw it up, making friends who like her, because this is so rare, and it requires a lot more mutual reciprocation from others, VS an attempt to change the system or fight against the law, cause a prison break, etc.

           Luz seems like the person who can handle learning a lost form of magic, fighting monstrous demons, all that jazz incredibly well; But when it comes to navigating actual emotional relationships, Luz has a lot more difficult navigating. Sometimes she copes with her fear by just going for it, sometimes she forgets about it entirely in her eager excitement, getting her hopes up… But in general, I don’t want Luz to think that she actively causes trouble for people, and that she hasn’t done enough to deserve the people who actively choose to be around her; Much less Luz’s potential apprehension about not being enough for someone she ‘forces’ interaction with because she wants to be with them, like Amity. I think Luz’s growing mistakes and incidents could contribute towards a growing sense of being a screw-up in her own way… And when you’re an insecure teen, you tend to forget about and disregard your good actions in hindsight, even as you’re performing them.

           While Luz’s efforts do sometimes pay off, it’s usually after something goes wrong and everyone grapples with the situation. Sometimes Luz has to wonder if it could’ve been done in a much better way, and if her friends had to do too much heavy-lifting to make things right, to pick up after Luz’s mess- Like maybe her friends could’ve just fixed this on their own, it was only Luz getting into a mess that made them get involved sooner rather than later. The thing about Luz’s mistakes is that a lot of them are understandable, or while bad, nevertheless escalate past a point she could’ve feasibly expected, so maybe she’s being too hard on herself for the consequences.

           I think Lilith is someone who also has an issue with this, as does King- And both have learned to confront that they cause messes that they didn’t intend, but still contributed towards. Of course, King is way more adjusted than Lily… And I can see Lilith and Luz potentially bonding over that feeling of being ‘cursed’, like any attempt to make things better for others just causes problems… And they’re already so much of a liability and a burden as-is. Even when they do things alone and for themselves, issues for their loved ones can develop as a direct result… So maybe they should just cut ties? To protect the ones they care for… Besides, their loved ones probably don’t need them THAT much anyway, their friends are too cool for losers like them.

           I kind of feel like Luz and Lilith could have a potential issue of really undervaluing themselves and their achievements… That when they do bring them up, they don’t really mean it and it’s just a shallow attempt at making themselves feel good- But deep inside they know it means nothing. Lilith knows that being Head Witch of the Emperor’s Coven means nothing, not without Eda’s approval, and especially because she got it as a hand-me-down from Eda… But she still boasts of it anyway to invite other witches, and to lie to herself. If Eda contrasts with Lilith and can teach her sister to engage in some self-love… Then consider that Eda does the same to Luz; And what this could say about Luz and Lilith as two people on the receiving end of Eda’s support, who have a lot to learn and benefit from Eda and already have.

           Maybe Luz expects herself to do a lot, because she recognizes that she IS a lot… So she tries to take advantage of this, and tries to compensate for past failures, by doing something good with it. This isn’t to say that Luz never acts in her self-interest, ever, because she’s still a fourteen-year-old kid with a loving and supportive family, who’s allowed to have fun and has still had genuinely positive lessons and growth in the Boiling Isles… Any issues she suffers in the Boiling Isles, if Luz gets them, would’ve been less worse than that of the Reality Camp, minus the physical harm bit of course. But that doesn’t seem to register to Luz that much because that’s not what really matters to her in the end.

           Regardless, I’m afraid that Luz is going to pick up on the idea that each time she innocently tries to go forward and do something for herself and/or others, without their permission… It just makes things worse, forcing others to not only fix the problem, but also make things better so Luz doesn’t mess up again. In other words, Luz probably thinks her friends are doing all of the actual work in making things better, which could play into how Luz thinks the world of her loved ones and is incredibly supportive of them. Perhaps she thinks they’re way cooler than her, too cool for Luz… It’s not too much of a prevalent issue NOW, I think, but it could be in the future. Luz could begin to wean herself off from doing what she enjoys, just for herself, because she thinks she’s a screw-up…

          And then her friends have to reassure her otherwise about everything, that even if Luz seems to be a disaster-magnet, it’s part of the charm and not her fault, she shouldn’t hold herself back! If anything, Luz should keep weaponizing her chaotic energy, making the most of what she has as always! Considering the school system that Luz grew up in, and how she’s ND-coded… I wouldn’t be surprised if a lot of schools really punished her and forced Luz to dwell a lot on her mistakes, without much room for productively fixing things; It’s a common neurodivergent experience to be unproductively yelled at for messing up, and then to internalize that. And it could contribute to Luz focusing on what she’s done wrong over what she’s done right. If Amity is learning to love herself, then… I sincerely hope Luz isn’t contrasting, by learning to doubt herself. Especially since the Boiling Isles has been almost objectively superior to the Reality Camp; Because there, she would’ve REALLY internalized even worse lessons, and not gained any of the good ones.

           Now, maybe I’m looking too deep into it; But hey, what if I’m right? At the very least this provides food for thought… You may as well take a chance, because what do you have to lose if you’re wrong- Nothing! But if you don’t try, you could lose the opportunity to really think and enjoy and anticipate something… And be right, or wrong- Either way you had fun!

[nerdylittleshit]

The Sinner, the Saint & the Fangirl

Female archetypes in 3x12 & 5x01 aka The Great Meta Scavenger Hunt Round 4

In this weeks challenge our task was to take a closer look on both 3x12 and 5x01, with bonus points if our focus is on the female characters of the episodes. And obviously this meta challenge is not a comnpetion and the real prize is the friends we made along the way or so I have been told, but I also really wanna win this thing (whatever this thing is), so bonus points here we come. Instead of comparing the two episodes and/or their female characters though, I decided to place each of them in a certain category. Namely is that woman a sinner or a saint? (Or because this Supernatural, a fangirl.)

The sinner/saint dynamic is something that exists as long as movies exist, and of course it is the kind of stereotype reserved exclusively for women. It is very prominent in old western, but not limited to it. The names are already self-explanatory; the saint is a woman of virtue, symbolizing innocence and purity. They often end up being either a victim or at least the damsel in distress, and if they survive they are the reward for our hero. Opposed to that is the sinner, women who have a low social stand for whatever reason and are often portrayed promiscuous. They usually don’t survive the movie. And at least if you watch an old western chances are big our saint is portrayed by a white woman with light hair, whereas the sinner is almost always portrayed by a woman of colour (because next to misogynist those movies were also racist).

(As you can see during my time at university I also had a beginner’s course of film study)

Of course this kind of archetypes evolved over time and today female characters get to be more complex. That doesn’t mean they aren’t used anymore, or at least their basics. Because it’s something most viewers are familiar with, and whenever these archetypes appear the audience doesn’t need much time to decide how to view this character (basically: good guy or bad guy?). But it is also used to subvert our expectitations towards certain characters.

Some time ago I wrote a meta about Supernatural from a feminist point of view, with a special look at the Carver era (which you can read here). In it I also noted that during the first years (the Kripke era) almost all female characters end up in one of three categories: antagonist (sinner), love interest or mom/sister characters (saints). Especially during the Carver era female characters have become more complex, but even today it seems like Donna might be the only current female character who doesn’t fit in either character, but is instead one of the few female friends the Winchesters have (Jody is also a mom character, whereas Charlie was portrayed as a little sister). And looking back it made us realize that even in Supernatural early years there was a group that didn’t fit in either to one of the three groups: female law enforcers (which Donna is of course as well). (More on this here and here). But I digress. Going back to 3x12 and 5x01 we can place almost all characters in the sinner or saint category, with the exception of Becky, who gets her own category.

So let’s have a look.

3x12 Jus in Belo

Bela:

The episode starts with a reminder that Bela stole the Colt from the Winchesters. Dean assumes she just wants to sell it to the highest bidder, when in reality Bela tries to exchange the Colt for her soul.

Of course we as an audience don’t know this yet, and neither does Dean, so we just assume she is a horrible person, who is okay with hundreds of people getting possesed and causing mayhem, only to get some extra cash.

Of course one could argue that her goal only to save her own soul when the Colt could save so much more people isn’t any better. It is still a very selfish reason for her to steal the Colt. And it places her opposite to Nancy, who considers sacrificing her own life in order to save many more people.

If anything Bela is a great example of how our expectations get subverted. Until 3x15 we only think of her in terms of a sinner. None of her actions are selfless or in any way heroic. The way we view her character is only changed once we learn the reason she made a deal in the first place: to escape her abusive parents. It doesn’t make her a saint, but it removes her from being a sinner as well. If anything it places her near characters like Bobby or Dean who both suffered from abusive parents as well, but eventually made different choices (and is also a comment how different male and female characters with the same backstory are treated at Supernatural, just saying).

Nancy:

Nancy is probably the character who fulfills any stereotypes the most, mostly because she only appears in one episode and it is usually the recurring characters who are allowed to get more complex.

Nancy is a classic saint, no doubt. She is introduced wearing a cross and a rosary, telling us at first glance that she is very religious. The very first thing she hears about the Winchesters? That they are “ Satan-worshipping, nutbag killers”. Her fear of them is not just based on the fact they are criminals (she works at a police station, she is used to them), but that they are satanists. And yet it appears she believes in the good of the people after all, or otherwise Sam’s trick to get her close enough to their cell in order to steal her rosary wouldn’t have worked.

After Victor Henriksen and the others learn the truth - demons are actually a thing - we get this little exchange.

Dean: How you holdin' up, Nancy?

Nancy: Okay. When I was little, I would come home from the church and start to talk about the devil. My parents would tell me to stop being so literal. I guess I showed them, huh? That should hold.

It further confirms Nancy’s religious nature, as well as showing us that Nancy at least as a child divided the world into black and white, evil and good. We can only assume her morality got more complex over the years, as she wasn’t completely hostile towards Sam and Dean even when she still believed them to be the bad guys.

As the plot thickens Ruby appears and offers a spell to get rid of all demons, though it includes killing a virgin. Which is how we learn that Nancy is still a virgin. Interesting enough Ruby speaks first of a person of virtue, before she specifies her request that she needs a virgin. We can argue therefore that in Supernatural a virgin automatically translate as a person of virtue. Furthermore virgins seem to symbolize purity and innocence. The only other time virgins were brought up again was in 6x12, where again their virginity was tied to the mythology of the show, in that case dragons who were after virgins. (And then of course Eve, who chose the body of a virgin as her vessel, subverting the image of the pure and innocent. But furthermore also a body nobody had used before (so to speak) and the irony of course of a virgin mother.)

Of course this is also bullshit. Your decision wheter to have sex or not (and with whom and how often) doesn’t say anything about your virtue. Deciding to stay a virgin doesn’t make you a good person, the same way that having sex doesn’t make you a bad person (especially not as a woman, no matter what people say). But its an image so old - virginity = purity - that we buy it without a second thought. That is the way arechetypes work after all, because they are familiar.

It is also the reason why Nancy never becomes a love interest. Apart from the fact that she appears to be rather young, the fact that she is a virgin immdiately not only places her in the category of a saint but also regarding the Winchesters in that of a little sister.

The reason though Nancy is a person of virtue/a saint is not her virginity but her willingness to sacrifice herself in order to save all the people the demons have possesed. She is also doing this while everyone around her (Sam, Dean, Ruby, Victor) still argue whether it is the morally right thing to do, reminding them it is her choice.

As I said before Nancy functions here opposed to Bela. Whereas Bela’s actions are based on selfish motives, Nancy is willing to do the ultimate sacrifice, a completely selfless act. We could further argue her decision is based on her faith as well, as Christianty is about altruism.

The episode ends however with all of our sinners surviving (Bela, Ruby, Lilith) whereas our only saint dies, despite the fact Sam and Dean tried everything to save her. Portraying her as the genuine good person she is, her loss perhaps hurts the most.

Ruby:

Enter Ruby. The great thing about her character is that during the whole of season 3 and 4 she is written ambiguous enough that we are never quite sure in which category she belongs, until her final reveal in 4x22. She is without a doubt no saint, but the show up until the end of her story makes us wonder if she a sinner either. And we are reminded of this here, because the very first thing Sam says about her, is that she is here to help them, marking her her as an ally.

Ruby, or more specific her spell, represents the moral dilemma of the episode. Is it okay to kill one person in order to save many others? Especially if said person is willing to sacrifice herself?

It leads to a great display of the different kind of moralities Sam and Dean have ( @postmodernmulticoloredcloak wrote a great piece about it here). Sam is willing to think about it, whereas Dean pretty much says that Ruby’s choice is no choice at all.

Henriksen: We do not sacrifice people. We do that, we're no better than them.

Ruby: We don't have a choice.

Dean: Yeah, well, your choice is not a choice.

Dean’s position here equals Victor’s. You can’t fight monsters if in order to do so you become a monster yourself.

Dean: It doesn't mean that we throw away the rule book and stop acting like humans. I'm not gonna let that demon kill some nice, sweet, innocent girl, who hasn't even been laid. I mean, look, if that's how you win wars, then I don't want to win. 

Ruby on the other hand thinks certain sacrifices are neccessary in order to win a war. She even points out that doing the spell would kill herself as well, a sacrifice she is willing to do if it helps the Winchesters. This particular part made me wonder if Ruby didn’t secretly count that Sam and Dean wouldn’t go through with her plan. Because what would have been her gain if she died? Her offering along makes us wonder about her true nature. If Nancy’s virtue is displayed by her willingness to sacrfice herself, can’t we say the same about Ruby?

This explanation makes a lot of sense. Ruby offers to sacrifice herself, therefore she places herself in the category of “good”. But it would also include the sacrifice of someone else, testing if Sam would be willing to consider it (he is, and we see the exact same dilemma in 4x22, where Sam kills a nurse because he believes it is the only way to defeat Lilith). She knows the Winchesters won’t go through with it, with Dean basically preventing it (because Sam only gives in to Ruby fully once Dean is gone). She still survives, leaving the police station once the Winchesters don’t agree with her plan and probably told Lilith where they are, to finish the episode with a great “I told you so”, showing them that her way would have been the right way all along.

Ruby: Don't thank me. Lilith killed everyone. She slaughtered your precious little virgin, plus a half a dozen other people. So after your big speech about humanity and war, turns out your plan was the one with the body count. Do you know how to run a battle? You strike fast and you don't leave any survivors. So no one can go running to tell the boss. So next time… we go with my plan.

In hindsight Ruby is a classic example of a sinner, including her seducing Sam. But up until the big reveal in 4x22 the show plays with our instinct reaction to her (she is a demon, she must be bad), making us constantly wondering in which category she fits (just as Bela’s story only gets complete with her last episode).

Lilith:

Aka the big bad of the season. I love how Dean after Ruby tells him there is a new big bad out there instantly assumes it is a he, until she correts him. You know, men don’t have the monopoly on murder.

This marks also the first episode we actually see Lilith, and it is interesting what kind of vessel she chooses: that of a young girl. Just as with Nancy we instantly assume the little girl to be innocent, only to get that expectation subverted as well. It is not the only time she appears as a little girl - she does the same thing in 3x16 (in a really creepy way I might add, causing the moral dilemma if it is okay to kill a child if said child is possesed by a demon).

We only see her in an adult vesel in season 4, still wearing white and having long blonde hair, both visual signs of purity, while also presenting her in suggestively way. Furthermore I might add Chuck’s vision in 4x18 of Sam and Lilith having sex, which by then has become a little theme, after sleeping with Ruby and presenting Meg initially as a love interest.

Lilith of course is a classic sinner. From a demon’s perspective though she could be seen as a saint as well, sacrificing herself for a greater goal (the rise of Lucifer).

5x01 Sympathy for the Devil

I don’t count Lucifer disguised as Nick’s dead wife here, because I think Lucifer mostly identifies himself as male.

Becky:

And this is where we add a third category, the fangirl. Becky is of course no sinner, but also no saint. For this episode she is merely a plot device. And another example of the shows long list of consent issues, as she seems to have a problem to let go of Sam.

Furthermore Becky is a comment of TPTB of how they view their audience/fandom. And it is not a very pretty picture.

When she appears again in 5x09 she is yet again just a plot device (getting the Winchesters to the con in the first place, telling them later about Crowley and the Colt). 7x08 is so full of consent issues I’m not even going there.

It seems like once Becky fulfilled her job (giving the Winchesters information they need) the writers didn’t really know what to do with her, and transformed her into a big joke about fans and their delusional way to see the world. Not really funny.

It took one Robbie Thompson to give us Charlie Bradbury instead, and later 10x05, to show us that fandom and fans can be portrayed in a much mure postive way. 

Meg:

And the last one on the list. Meg’s journey starts as someone who looks like an ally/love interest back in 1x11, only to be revealved to be a sinner all along. She pretty much stays this way in the first five seasons, but eventually works together with the Winchesters in season 6, 7 and 8, as they have a common enemy in Crowley, leading to her sacrficice in 8x17. It doesn’t make her a saint of course, but again we can’t put her into the category of sinner either. What is interesting here is that she stays a sinner all along in the Kripke era and only becomes something more, more complex once Sera Gamble and later Jeremy Carver took over.

In 5x01 we see her in all her evil glory though. She kisses Dean against his consent (demons and sexual assault is a topic of its own), and arranges it that Bobby gets possesed and almost kills Dean. Like she could have killed Dean a million different ways, but she wanted his surrogate dad to do the job, punishing Bobby along the way.

Tl, dr:

Archetypes, such as the sinner and the saint, are used frequently in Supernatural, especially in the first five seasons. They are used especially if a character only appears one time, because the audience is already familiar with this kind of characters. Recurring female character tend to be more complex, with the show often subverting our expections. Also, sacrificing yourself is kinda a big thing.