#canto 8 predictions

[lu-is-not-ok]

How it feels to be T minus six months away from being thrown into The Chamber which is awfully Red.

Anyway, I'm going to take this opportunity to make some Canto 8 predictions before the Roadmap drops for fun.

Now, these are a mix of theories that have been brewing within me since the game's launch and some stuff that hit me extremely recently. I'm going to try to keep the most general/sane predictions at the front while the more specific/deranged takes are gonna stay at the bottom.

Enjoy.

(And just in case anyone is curious, yes, I will be making a Canto 8 bingo board after we're done with this Season's Intervallos.)

Canto 8 Name Predictions:

The Disillusioned / The Disenchanted (Reference to either Land of Illusion or the fairy Disenchantment from DOTRC)

The Indebted (Reference to the Debt of Tears from DOTRC)

The Cycle Continuing (Matching the Canto 7 format of misleading you into thinking it's a description of the plot when it's actually describing the Sinner as well - Sancho is trying to end the dream, she's the Dream Ending Sinner)

All The Other Predictions:

The lesson Hong Lu will have to learn is to stand up for himself against his Family.

As the Saplings of Light seem to be happening in reverse Ruina order, Hong Lu would end up being assigned Chesed. Thus far, every Sinner tied to a Sapling of Light had to learn the same lesson as the counterpart Sephirah - Heathcliff had to learn to move on from his past like Hokma, while Donqui had to learn to have hope in the future like Binah.

Chesed's arc revolved around him learning that he needs to stop lying to himself and others, and that simply following authority only contributes to perpetuating the harm they cause, so his resolution has him stand up to that authority and try to rebel. I expect Hong Lu to have to go through something similar in his Canto.

Hong Lu will Distort.

Did you really think I would forget that foreshadowing from all the way back in Hell's Chicken?

Hong Lu will be the key to the Immortality of the Mind his elders are seeking.

This would tie him directly to the theme of resurrection that him being the Jade implies, plus it would be a direct reason as to why his Family is actively looking for him - they need him for their own goals.

There will be at least One cannibal in the Jia Family.

No I am not letting go of that Canto 2 line about bitten off fingers.

The Land of Illusion will be revealed to be where one of (if not more) of the Rivers is.

DOTRC potrays the Land of Illusion as a place with notable supernatural Rivers + thematic cohesion between Land of Illusion and Hades as forms of "afterlife" (we already know one of the Rivers is named after a River of Hades).

Hong Lu will be revealed to be both Jia Baoyu and Lin Daiyu, not in a "they merged the two characters into one for the sake of adaptation" way, but in a "this character is composed of two characters in-universe" way.

The framing and timing of the reveal of Hong Lu's name being Baoyu feels incredibly suspicious to me, to the point it actively makes me doubt that's all there is to his true identity. Plus there are multiple things about his E.G.O.s and certain writing choices that can't be explained with him Just being Baoyu.

[yisangtheacclaimedfeministpoet]

My Canto VII predictions!

[friendofoyster]

Dream of the red chamber or something idk i havent read it

[astranauticus]

i don't have the screenshots on hand because this is just a thought i needed to let out after being woken up by my buildings fire alarm at 7am (i am in shambles, thanks for asking) but back at the start of canto 7 i was trying to figure out what in the Fuck hong lu meant by don quixote being 'the most lucid' of the sinners and eventually my read was that she's the one who's most clear on what she wants because hong lu brought up how her eyes are sparkling and the two times dante notes someone's eyes sparkling in that episode (?) were when don talks about saving all the people in la manchaland and when charon says she wants to eat candy at an amusement park, and also this would very nicely mirror the bit in the final sancho fight when dante ruminates about how so far they've been trying to help the sinners out of their issues by figuring out what they want and then promising it to them but with sancho she doesn't want anything because everything she's wanted as don quixote was part of that dream that she's now woken up from (especially with dulcinae talking at length about the difference between sancho and don's eyes)

but like..... there's one other thing about eyes that dante notices in that early episode

so i'm wondering if this is an idea that's gonna come back in canto 8, that dante's old tricks aren't going to work here either because hong lu just doesn't really want anything for himself when he's been living his whole life surrendering (hah) himself to being used by other people for their own goals

[patchworkfox01]

~Potential Canto 8 Spoilers/Predictions~

I'm probably gonna upload a video with my Predictions later today but for now I thought it'd be fun to post them here.

First and foremost, I think it's pretty clear that the main EGO for Season 6 is more than likely based off the Yin and Yang Dragon from Lob Corp. I'm also gonna go out on a limb and say it could very well be our first Aleph EGO.

I also think Spider of Marriage is going to be present in the Season 6 Battle Pass. I know people thought it would be included in Heathcliff's Canto, but honestly, I think it's much more thematically fitting with Hong Lu. I do think if it gets into the battle pass, Heathcliff could very well be the other recipient for it though.

Indicant's Trial could MAYBE be a Season 6 abno, but given we just got a banner for it, I think it'd be weird if it got 3 EGO within the span of a month.

As for a few other predictions that I think would work for Hong Lu's Battle Pass, my personal choices are Stuck In Heaven and Wandering Mind.

Now, for the actual Canto predictions. For one, I think Iori will show up somewhere in the Canto, given the usage of one of her moves in Nocturnal Sweeping. As for if she'll be important, it's really hard to say, but I do think she'll be present.

It also feels safe to say that we'll see a member of Cinq East to match Don's Cinq East ID.

It feels like a pretty safe assumption that we'll have another run in with the Heishou Pack, preferably without being interrupted by Ricardo this time. This is more of a hope than a prediction, but I'd love to see other branches as well.

[hymnzz]

hong lu with no light in his eyes 🤤🤤🤤

[mento--mori]

this is my prediction for Canto 8

[picaroroboto]

prediction for the vibes of Canto 8 Dante: <Hong Lu, are you okay!?> Hong Lu: No :) Dante: <C-can I help? Is there any way I can help you?> Hong Lu: Also no but thanks anyways :)

[slothpower-central]

Here's my super early before everything Canto 8 bingo card

You all asked for it so I shall hand it over, keep in mind this is subject to change massively based on things like the intermissions, I want to be the first person to make a Bingo card for way in the future, call it a....long term investment Here is my super early Canto 8 Bingo card!!

Okay so I kinda wanna explain the board choices for funsies!

Hong Lu is a rock-.....obviously the big theory is on here!

Mothershu crumbs-So my friends and I refer to like character moments and hints as crumbs and mothershu is what we refer to as Ryoshu being a mother or like alluding to that(like with smth like Spider Bud)

Sinclair snaps-We get another moment similar to his shut the fuck up moment in Canto 7

Freak Lu- uhm this one is more of a silly one since with the number of times that man is tied up or smth and is chill with it (What do you mean it was a unique and fun experience?!?!) my friends and I think he's into it, so we included it for fun

No romance plotline-sigh. Wishful thinking on the part of a Hong Lu yume shipper(me) one of the original novels main plotlines is a whole romance love triangle thing goin on with Baoyu. My friend an I were going back and forth on if/how they could adapt that madness so to subvert expectations,we said no romance

We go to the Land of Illusion-Look if Baoyu goes there in the original, who's to say we won't go in Limbus

Outis Family crumbs- Outis saying anything about her family or home or Penelope or any of that

Uhm the Lin Daiyu space is self-explanatory aside from the descriptors, it's more in reference to my friend's bingo card she made for Canto 7, and it had "Dulcinea is a baddie" on there so I had to carry on the joke

That Grey Bastard appears-uhm.... that's in reference to Demian. My friend group is not a fan of him (I'm literally close friends with the real reincarnation of Emil Sinclair, of course we have conflicting feelings on Demian)

Levels copy the style of chapter names- So the names of levels last canto matched up with the way chapters in Don Quixote are titled and it was the same way in Canto 5 so Amia and I thought it might carry over to Canto 8 ^^

Heathcliff crumbs-We kinda threw his one in here but y'know more Heathcliff family moments or more Heathcath

Baoyu name reveal-Okay before you say, "But Sloth, they did reveal it to the sinners!" uhm no, look at who was in that convo. It was Wei, Xichun and Hong Lu, the other sinners do not know, or they just really decided to not comment on that

Chapter with the most npcs-This one is a prediction because guys. The original novel has like 400 characters in it.

Story Dungeon in Canto-So I always like to ask whether we'll get one since in Canto 6,we didn't get a dungeon,so we put it on there

Hong Lu is a "Charon situation"- I proposed some kind of crazy idea that Hong Lu was like overwriting Baoyu's personality/old self or smth and Amia responds with "Charon situation" since in Leviathan Lapis gets herself overwritten by one of her mirror worlds, that being Charon. So maybe something of a similar nature happened to Hong Lu (Yes this is different enough from rock theory to me)

Hong Lu doesn't distort- Ha you thought! Amia and I are like *convinced* the Hell's Chicken line is a red herring meant to throw us off. Like Quixote distortion was a big theory for a while and she didn't distort (Can bloodfiends distort? Idk) I know we're in the minority but like unless something changes my mind, I'm gonna keep being in the minority

[melonisopod]

Predictions for Canto 8:

-Mili Song

-Hong Lu's "Pass On"

-Base EGO voiceline change

-White boy jumpscare (Demian after credits scene)

[necronatural]

Limbus Company theory

Okay, I have absolutely no idea if anyone's noted this yet. Did anyone pick up that the Sinners are held down by a Sin, represented in their EGO, and their Canto are about their struggles against another sin entirely. The branch creates a space for 'penance'. When Rodya entered the field of effect of the branch, Baba Yaga went crazy, freezing the entire mine. There's clearly some paralleling at work here.

So let's go through.

Gregor, Canto 1: Sloth V Gluttony (survival); note that this expedition failed, and we later explore Sloth with Yi Sang

Rodion, Canto 2: Pride V Gloom; note that Rodya refused to actualize

Sinclair, Canto 3: Gluttony (Greed) V Lust

Yi Sang, Canto 4: Sloth V Gluttony (greed); Dante's resonance begins

Ishmael, Canto 5: Gloom V Envy; Dante's resonance progresses

When we look at the dominant sins of the remainder...

Heathcliff, Canto 6: Envy...

Don Quixote, Canto 7: Lust…

Hong Lu, Canto 8: Gloom…

Ryoshu, Canto 9: Wrath…

Meursault, Canto 10: Pride…

Outis, Canto 11: Pride…

Faust, Canto 12: Pride…

Dante, Canto ?: ????

Sins not confronted yet: Sloth, Pride, Wrath

Sinner sins left to explore: Envy, Wrath, Lust (If we're talking strictly what progressed Dante's clock, Gluttony & Pride)

Assuming Dante's doomsday clock setting is moving in 5 minute intervals, Dante currently has 2 positions left on their clock; 5 minutes to midnight and midnight itself. It's made almost explicit that their resonance with sinners is the tool with which they resonate with the branches. By obtaining each sin, they're building to some sort of complete whole.

Predictions based on this theory; Pride being so back-heavy probably means we're going to scramble for branches with Hermann. It gives the impression that for whatever reason Pride is necessary, which is interesting.

My own theory: Rodya says she'll settle in the cold [Gloom] for a little longer, and Sonya says she doesn't have the mark. I'd say this might mean Rodya hasn't sufficiently resonated. Sonya may have tried to bait her in hopes of getting better results in this regard.

This may mean ...

The last few Cantos will be a losing streak (LOL)

Someone who hasn't cleansed themselves of their opposing sin/formed the mark of cain will get the branch; I'd imagine this person shares sins with Dante, Vergilius, or Charon, who I believe are probably Envy, Wrath, and Lust respectively (OOP @ WHO WE'RE MISSING ⬆️)

In that respect Vergilius V Sloth, Charon V Pride, Dante V Wrath. I even think the wrath Dante is opposed to could be Vergilius

Very notable there's only 3 sins missing; it could be possible we already have Dante's branch; they were very obviously part of the group of Cain Marked, and again, their clock started at 25-to-midnight and just kind of sat there for a little while. It's also possible it didn't move until Yi Sang because their sin was Gluttony (ambiguous manifestation)? If Hermann also represents Lust ..... Think about it

Rodya's refusal of the call of Cain might become plot-relevant, just as our failure to observe what happened to Gregor on the myth arc timeline of 3 years ago and relationship with the Big Bad makes it obvious he's going to be a core character in the future. We can tell based on those who have the mark of Cain that he just doesn't have the chops, so mayhaps their mutual exclusion will be a surprise tool that will help us later.

And of course, my theories for the sins that weigh down our remaining Sinners: Heathcliff V Sloth, Don Quixote V Wrath, and Ryoshu V Pride. I predict all the Prides share Rodya's opposing force, which is Gloom; we see this in the books these characters are based on, with Meursault's despair of being sentenced to death being overcome by his Pride, Outis putting herself through grueling trials for the sake of returning to her family, and Faust beginning with suicidal depression leading to her pride creating(summoning) Mephistopheles.

I think it would be pretty funny if Dante was Gretchen's evil baby. Or that Gretchen might have been their previous self, manipulated into giving birth to Dante (extremely vulnerable and exploitable state), which they will be disgusted by and put to death. How many representations of the Divine Feminine in classic literature can Dante represent any% speedrun

[lu-is-not-ok]

In the roadmap of this season, the new .5 shown is one seemingly related to the sweepers. Given each of the .5s/second .5s were ones that setup for their next cantos I am wondering what sort of info you wish to glean from it?

I myself am rather interested in sweeper lore generally, so more about that, and perhaps the dynamics between them will again parallel Gong Lu's family. I wonder if Dante’s autotranslate for distortions will allow them to speak with the sweepers, they do seem to be standing in front of them in that teaser image.

I am. So excited anout that intervallo.

So here's a brief list of things I'm excited for, plus maybe a few silly predictions cause why not:

Since we're dealing with Sweepers, we're likely going to be in the Backstreets of whatever District Canto 8 is gonna take place in. I'm really excited to learn more about the worldbuilding for the Backstreets. Plus you fucking know Rodya is gonna have some shit to say about the class disparity, as is often the case.

Sweepers are in this interesting place of having Family-like structures, but having them work in a similar way to Bloodfiend Families - in that one can choose to become part of a Sweeper Family rather than being forced into being born into it. Considering how Fanghunt Hong Lu is the way he is, I hope facing that idea of choosing one's own Family so directly will elicit some sort of reaction out of Hong Lu.

An introduction to a new faction. I doubt they can make Sweepers into IDs (they're not like power armor where you can have the helmets be conditional, nor are they like prosthetics where you can only have a part of the face be replaced), so if they go with Event Identities we're gonna need something else for those. I'm personally hoping for a Syndicate because I like em.

Partially related to the above, I'd love to see a plot that at least partially parallels/references the Sweepers chapter in Distortion Detective. For those who don't know, there's a short arc in DD where Moses and co end up stuck out in the Backstreets during the Night and are forced to weather the waves of Sweepers while looking for shelter. Moses is able to tell they'll be unable to survive through all three waves of Sweepers, so they try to get the people already in hiding to let them in. Eventually, someone does - a group of Thumb members, causing Moses and co to have to make a deal with them to stay overnight. I'm hoping the Intervallo will have some sort of parallel to that, where the Sinners will be forced to make a deal with someone (potentially the faction used for Event IDs hopefully) to survive the night.

In general, some sort of Hong Lu nuclear bomb is inevitable. Something with the same dramatic impact as the Don Quixote being a Bloodfiend reveal at the end of Warp Express. My bet is on a proper reveal that he's a runaway, and that his previously stated reasons for leaving home (alongside perhaps some other things he's said) were a complete lie all along.

Which, speaking of Hong Lu being a runaway. Here's my silly prediction for what setup they could use for the Intervallo's plot that I've been rotating in my head for a bit now. Imagine, if you will, Hong Lu recognising that the District the bus is heading into is his home District. Imagine the panic that would stir within him. What if, in the middle of the night, Hong Lu does what he's tried once before and attempts to run away again. He disappears from the bus, and similarly to that one mini episode where Heathcliff almost got lost to the Backdoor, Faust is immediately concerned over retrieving him. Especially if being turned to liquid by Sweepers is one of those things Dante might not be able to rewind.

[player-1]

Apart from vibrating anxiously for the finale to Canto 7, I figured I could do a lightning round to all the new lore bits that were revealed so far. Of course there's a lot to take in, especially with a good bit of book comparisons too, so that's fun (not that I watched the musical yet, but go figure) :) (Obvious spoilers for Canto 7.1-7.2 and possible prediction for part 3)

-Surprised that no one mentioned that PCorp/District 24 is very likely to be the headquarters for the Dieci Association, especially with their archival department being the largest and most refined in the City so far. PCorp's Singularity isn't explicitly explained yet (for obvious City taboo reasons), but they can make a building material that can bend to insane degrees but never breaks (even with LaMancha Land literally appearing in one of the more populated residential districts and bending skyscrapers from the force, the only bodycount was from people wandering into the park to get turned into Bloodbags). And apparently in all the screw-ups the Sinners have been in, they're strong enough to fight a Urban Nightmare now (second strongest threat to Star of the City and the LoR fans cheering in the background for Vergil mentioning it outright).

-Cesaros (head manager of the archival dept.) mentions that Limbus Company is considered a "medium-sized enterprise" from her research (maybe something close to a Association or a Office with members in the double-digits), but they are extremely tight-lipped on what their company even does or why they need the Golden Boughs in the first place...Which Dante gets 100% since he's already kept in the dark of the place he's working in.

-And speaking of LaMancha Land, anyone getting 8 o' Clock Circus vibes anyone? :) Also it's been around for 200 years so that was a good timeframe for how long they've been active before popping up in PCorp about 4-5 months ago. LaMancha did have a noble goal at first, letting Bloodfiends and humans create a symbiotic relationship with the vamps entertaining their guests (+ free therapy sessions) and the humans donating blood to satiate their hunger without going crazy. The Bloodfiends also get a supplement bar (hemobar/hemoglobin bar) on the down low, but both counterparts have very little blood and eventually drove the vamps mad from withdrawal.

+Book-wise, I actually like how the main Bloodfiend bunch fits their namesake with that wonderful PMoon twist; Bari/Knight of the White Moon being a mix between Sancho and/or Cardenio IMO, Sanson could fit the role of the fake magician Munaton/Friston/Friton who had the power to "take" rooms from a foundation and create illusions (obviously a lie to keep Don Quixote from freaking out about his book collection being destroyed and boarded up the room). -The Barber and Priest work a bit like side characters since their main jobs in the book was trick Don Quixote to coming back to his village and "cure" his delusions by disguising themselves as a damsel princess and a squire (the priest did want to do the princess role at first before letting the barber do it since it conflicted with his Christian morals (ie. he blanked on that fact multiple paragraphs ago before chickening out). So if you read that little bit in the book, then that's the reason why the Barber's a girl, so you're welcome! :) -Limbus Dulcinea also follows the role of "The Princess of the Parade" with Sancho as her Prince; then Sancho "abandoned" the park for some unknown reason (in her eyes) and the princely role was replaced by Cassetti...And then he ran away too with drastically disastrous results in the Warp Train side story. Book Dulcinea is described (by Don) as a fair maiden with pale gold hair and equally pale and fair skin, while the real Dulcinea (Aldonso Lorenzo) is a haughty and rude farm-women at the village who Don has only seen four times out of 12 years they have crossed paths; so having a interesting blend of both personality traits is a neat little easter egg if they can connect the two. +And last but not least, the main chivalric trio; Don Quixote/Alonso Quixano, Rocinante, and Sancho :D.

-While it is fair that Alonso isn't fully revealed until 7.3 (which I'm all for the real name drop for tall, blond and dumbass), Alonso is a Bloodfiend that's obsessed with certain hobbies to an extreme before dropping them completely in less than a week (like getting a bunch of expensive yarn for knitting until getting bored in three days). But he does follow his aspirations when he thinks there's a long-term reward for it; like being a Fixer to do good and spread his name and creating LaMancha Land for both human and Bloodfiends to work together in harmony (but not before forcing the vamps to believe that the only way to be happy is give happiness to others since he grew tired of living in comfort without any conflict or adversity...as if that isn't going to backfire one way or another :).

-And again, Rocinante wouldn't be fleshed out until 7.3, but we do know a good amount...They are either a horse, a pair of running shoes, or some poor schmuck that's forced to deal with a delusional vampire knight and their badass could-be-a-Color Fixer on their wild adventures. Like helping a village fight off a group of bandits with the few lines paraphrased from the book about facing any foe, no matter the size or strength, that had zero consequences whatsoever (*sweats nervously in Ch. 18*); then getting the helmet of the knight Mambrino from ch. 20-21 by...fighting a bear. The River of Oblivion is more of an Odyssey reference, but I think it could also connect to Don Quixote's "penance" in ch. 25-26 at a small oasis in the Sierra Morena; since the only time Don was able to speak the truth about Dulcinea is after dismounting Rocinante and removing his armor, stripping away everything that makes him a knight in appearance alone.

-And finally, with all the teasing in 7.1 to now (even the Yearning-Mircalla ego too), the biggest twist of the Canto is that our goofy vampire Limbus Don is actually Sancho, a "squire" playing the role of a valiant Fixer despite the odds of absolutely everything the City has to offer (and certainly against her will). From what little info we can get from her conversations with the real Don, she's pretty standoffish and crass to the one person that gave her a second chance in life besides dying alone and without a family, though she does like the Zwei Association from Bari’s stories despite claiming they’re boring and strange. And am I the only one who noticed so far that Don took inspiration from the Zwei for her armor and have Bari's hairstyle as a strong and confident Fixer? Other than that, there's still a lot of baggage she has to deal with now that Sancho's out of her endless dream and finally has her autonomy back for real this time. For better or worse, I'm all for Sancho being the new Sinner #3 so she can learn that the team is her new family that she can appreciate without sacrificing her own happiness.

Already crossing my fingers that they'll add another obscure reference from the book later on, but that's all on the 24th :)

[enkephallic]

I read Dream of the Red Chamber so you don't have to - feat. Canto 8 theories

Overview

Dream of the Red Chamber is the longest of the Sinners' original texts, and one of China's most famous classics. Jia Baoyu was born with a jade in his mouth, which he always carries as a necklace. His cousin of the same age, Lin Daiyu, has been orphaned and has to live with Baoyu and his family. Baoyu enjoys playing and writing poetry with his sisters, cousins and maids, but various factors lead to the downfall of the Jia family.

Characters, themes and predictions under the cut. Very, very long so be warned:

Characters

Jia Baoyu

The protagonist born with a jade in his mouth. The stone was originally in the Heavenly Realm, but was sent down to the profane world by a Taoist and a monk because it was interested in their stories.

In his previous life, he had a deep connection with his cousin Daiyu. When he first meets her, he says: "I've seen you before!" Surrounded by Daiyu, Baochai and the other girls, he enjoys life every day. Hates studying. Unlike Hong Lu, Baoyu is very emotive and cries and laughs a lot. Unfortunately he doesn't stay that way forever.

Baoyu is actually the second son. His older brother died after marrying and having a child - Baoyu has a nephew called Lan.

Lin Daiyu

Daiyu was a flower in her past life, watered by the stone that became Jia Baoyu. When she entered the human realm, she promises to dedicate all her tears to him. Crying for Baoyu becomes her fate, and she often bickers or fights with him and cries.

Daiyu comes to live with the Jia family after becoming orphaned. She often feels awkward and uncomfortable due to this, and sometimes cries from loneliness. Women without parents do not have much power in this era, which leaves her in a state of fragility. However, she does not spend all her days crying - sharp-tongued and witty, she excels at writing poetry.

Xue Baochai

Baoyu's cousin, two years older than him. Reliable and realistic, but rather cold to other people. Plump and obedient, she completely abides by social norms and does not question gender roles or servant/master dynamics.

Her surname is a homophone of "snow", and she is remarked to be as cold as such. Her necklace matches Baoyu's as gold and jade, which is believed to be good luck and factors into their eventual marriage. She is kind and amiable, but her conservative values differ greatly from Baoyu's.

Hua Xiren

Also called Aroma in some translations. Two or three years older than Baoyu, and the one to take his virginity. A reliable maid and Baoyu's unofficial chamber wife. She takes good care of him, but often pushes societal and family expectations onto him. Often pleading with him to study properly. Her name means "The aroma of flowers assails person", taken from a poem and given to her by Baoyu.

Wang Xifeng

Baoyu's cousin who married into the family. A sharp-tongued woman who excels at management and business, but once angered cannot be placated. Has killed several people indirectly. She is placed in charge of the family accounts, but her loan sharking gets the household into trouble towards the end. Her husband, Jia Lian, is a piece of shit cheater.

After her miscarriage, her health deteriorates and never fully gets better. She ends up dying from sheer stress worsening her illness. A strong woman, but a woman nonetheless as she cannot read and often suffers under gendered expectations. However, she is quite scummy, and is the mastermind behind Baoyu's deceptive wedding. Other examples of her cunning behaviour include leading an annoying flirtatious man on and shutting him out in the cold, starting a chain of events that lead to his death. When her scummy husband takes a concubine without her knowledge, she pretends to be friendly to her while spreading rumours behind the scenes and driving her to suicide.

Jia Yuanchun

Baoyu's older sister, quite a few years above him. She taught him how to read and write. The emperor chose her to be an imperial consort, which brought great honour to her family. However, she doesn't have much fun there and dies young.

Jia Yingchun

A quiet and rather dull cousin of Baoyu. Has nothing going for her, and is often called a dunce or "just kind of there". She doesn't speak up when things bother her, and cannot stand up to her maids and nanny even if their conduct is bad. Ends up married to an abusive man, and despite Baoyu wanting to save her, she dies from the stress of her abuse.

Jia Tanchun

The daughter of a concubine, directly related to Jia Huan. But her personality is much different to his, and she is very reliable. When Xifeng was ill, she took over household duties and ran the place. She can be cold and ruthless to people who look down on her, and is likened to a beautiful rose with thorns. Marries far away, but comes back to the capital towards the end and stays alive.

Jia Xichun

Baoyu's third cousin, and the youngest girl. Adept at painting, Grandmother Jia asks her to undertake a large project to paint the manor's garden. Her father Jia Jing is engrossed in his research of immortality, and ends up dying after repeatedly drinking cinnabar. She does not know much parental love, and her older brother Jia Zhen loves women a little too much. Disliking the Ningguo House her brother is in charge of due to this, she prefers staying over with Baoyu and the other girls.

When the household begins to fall from grace, her good friend and nun Miaoyu is kidnapped by bandits. Xichun decides to become a nun, abandoning her responsibilities as a woman and rejecting her family's pleas and opposition. She is the one who gets along with Baoyu the most at the end, and lives to see the end of the book.

Jia Huan

Hong Lu's half brother, the son of a concubine. Not treated with much regard, but has a horrible personality regardless. He knocks over a candle to burn Baoyu's face, and tells a lie that gets Baoyu severely beaten. His mother also conspires with Baoyu's godmother to curse Baoyu and Xifeng to death - that's likely where he got it from.

Not treated very well. When things go missing, he is questioned. When a maid tricks him over something minor, his mother goes into hysterics and makes his life harder. Not very close with his mother, either. His studies and poetry are also mediocre, and no one expects much from him. Towards the end, he becomes a drunkard who whores around with the other men. When Xifeng dies, he attempts to sell off her daughter to a Mongol prince for some money. Just a terrible guy by then.

Qingwen

Called Skybright in some translations. A rather prideful maid assigned to Baoyu who excels in sewing. She doesn't "know her place" as one of servitude and even argues with Baoyu, but Baoyu likes her and they always make up after a fight. She also sews Baoyu's coat after he accidentally damaged it, staying up all night despite being sick. When the child actors and an old maid begin arguing, she never makes a move to stop them and simply laughs at the entertainment. When Baoyu crams his studies, she yells at the other maids "don't you dare fall asleep". When she finds out another maid stole her bracelet, she stabs her hand with a needle in fury. A chaotic girl overall.

Her strong personality attracts the ire of some older women, who snitch on her to Baoyu's mother (Lady Wang). When she's called to meet Lady Wang, she heads over in unkempt attire because she was feeling unwell. Lady Wang heavily berates her, worsening her health. Eventually she is fired and forced to live at her cousin's disgusting house. Baoyu, knowing she's grown up in a lavish manor and not used to any of this, worries for her and sneaks out to visit her. He finds her dying of illness, rotting alone in a dirty house. Unable to prove her innocence, she laments "If I knew this would happen, I would have done things differently!". Her funeral is done very shoddily because her family only wants the money. Her death is one of the most miserable in the book.

Ping'er

Xifeng's maid and right hand. Trusted and relied on by everyone, she is deeply competent and helpful throughout the series. After the fall of the Jia family and death of Xifeng, she helps smuggle her daughter into a village so she doesn't get married off to a random Mongol Prince. Her loyalties lie with her master even after her death.

Elements Likely to be Touched on in Canto 8

Land of Illusion

Hong Lu's EGO. It is a world full of fairies (仙女) in the heavenly realm, and Baoyu first visits there when he is 8 years old. In the dream, he reads a register containing the fates of twelve women around him, but he is a child and does not understand any of it.

A fairy tells him that he is an "amorous profligate" - in other words, "the most lewd man of all". He claims he doesn't even know what that means, being a young child. She explains no, she's not calling him a lusty sex-crazed man, but someone who lusts for the company of women. And it would be fine in the celestial world, but in the real world, he will be ridiculed for it.

She then proceeds to show the boy how to have sex, and tells him he must also have sex in the real world with her 'sister'. This woman turns out to be Xiren, Baoyu's servant girl. After Baoyu wakes up from his wet dream, she has sex with him.

The Land of Illusion is not really touched upon until the end of the book. Some female characters who die in the book go to the Land of Illusion, and so it is something like a heavenly realm.

At the end of the book, Baoyu visits the realm again. After losing his jade for around ten chapters, a mysterious monk shows up with it and gives it back to him. Immediately after his jade is returned, he is taken to the Land of Illusion once more. There, he meets fairies who look just like his deceased maids, but none act as if they know him. When he is taken to a room where the deceased Daiyu resides, the others yell "You unmannerly thing!" and kick him out.

Baoyu reads the register containing the fates of the women around him again, and this time he's an adult so he understands everything.

"So everything was predestined..."

After peeking into the future of all the women around him, his affections cease and he stops obsessing over girls.

Ghosts and the Spiritual Realm

Ghosts often appear in Dream of the Red Chamber, with one example being You San-jie. When she is rejected by the man she wished to marry, she slices her own neck and kills herself. Her ghosts visits the man, tells him "I have thrown away my worldly desires now, and I reside in the Land of Illusion. We are strangers now."

Xifeng is also visited by the ghost of a woman who died early in the book, warning her that she "didn't heed her warnings" and continued to play dangerous with the family's money. Before her death, she is also visited by You Er-jie's ghost - she apologizes for driving her to suicide, and the two women make amends.

In one chapter, rumours that the Jia family's garden is haunted spreads. Many fall sick and some die due to these ghosts, and an exorcism is carried out to solve the hauntings. Ghosts are an established occurrence in the book, often leaving warnings or messages. Most ghosts are women who died and went to the Land of Illusion.

When Grandmother Jia's maid, Yuanyang, wishes to die after the former's disastrous funeral, a ghost from the Land of Illusion mimics hanging herself and teaches her which method to die with. After she completes her suicide, her spirit is taken to the Land of Illusion.

As well as the Land of the Illusion, the Underworld is also mentioned as a place where the dead go. Baoyu's friend and schoolmate Qin Zhong bargains with the demons in the underworld to prolong his death, so that he may speak to Baoyu one last time. Baoyu also visits the underworld once, looking for Daiyu after her death.

"Her soul is not a normal one, you won't find her here! She's in the Land of Illusion!"

Following that, the demons chuck him back into the real world.

Dream of the Red Chamber has its own view of life and death - some go to the underworld, some go to the Land of Illusion. Baoyu and Daiyu are both reincarnated from the heavenly realm, and are assigned a fixed role to fulfill throughout their lives.

Baoyu's Jade

Baoyu was born with a piece of jade in his mouth, and Hong Lu's eye is very likely to be just this. It is difficult to state what role the jade plays exactly, but when something happens to the jade, it also affects Baoyu. The servants recognize the jade as "just as important as Baoyu's life".

When Baoyu almost dies after a curse is placed on him, a Taoist and a monk come and purify his jade. "Though tainted by the profane world, you will eventually wake from the dream..." they say, and leave him to get well quickly.

Towards the end of the book, Baoyu suddenly loses his jade. The household looks everywhere in a panic to no avail. Baoyu becomes spaced out and idle after losing his jade, giggling and barely having a mind of his own. He stops eating and spends all his time laying down. He remains in a state where his own self is barely there.

In an attempt to fix this, his family plan a marriage for him. Baochai and Baoyu have matching necklaces, and they decide to marry them to turn around his luck. But some know that Baoyu only loves Daiyu. They decide to deceive him, telling him "You're gonna marry Daiyu!". This almost completely cures his condition, and he displays outward joy at the prospect. This brings to question how much the jade actually had an effect on his mental state - but that does not matter, because as soon as he realizes he's been tricked he completely loses it. They probably should have seen it coming.

Hong Lu's jade may also be there to stabilize his mental or physical state. Or rather, if his mental state is compromised it will probably reflect in his jade eye.

Jia Baoyu, Zhen Baoyu

In the novel, there exist two families with a Baoyu - Jia family and Zhen family. While Jia is a homophone of "false", Zhen is a homophone of "true". Everything about the two Baoyus are identical, from face to personality - except for Zhen Baoyu being a year younger. Jia Baoyu meets Zhen Baoyu in a dream once, but only meets him in person towards the end of the book.

Zhen Baoyu does not directly appear for most of the book, but descriptions of him echo Jia Baoyu's person:

Loves girls, hates studying. "The word girl is precious, so if you say it with a dirty mouth I'll yank those teeth out."

Falls sick and visits the Land of Illusions, hinted to have read the register about the girls' fates. Completely loses his interest girls, sticks to studying.

The Zhen family and the Jia family both get their assets seized.

When Baoyu meets Zhen Baoyu, he is happy at first but realizes this guy is just another career worm - "study hard" this, "filial piety" that. He complains to Baochai that Zhen Baoyu is just another fool, and he wishes he didn't look like him. Baochai rebukes him, upholding the traditions and expectations placed upon Baoyu.

Zhen Baoyu had already turned into "The Baoyu society expects". He acts as a sort of parallel to Baoyu, who has not yet reached enlightenment.

From this, it can be guessed that Hong Lu will also meet his alter ego and "the person people want him to be".

Sickness in Mind

Illness often comes up in Dream of the Red Chamber - Daiyu is sickly, and strong emotions cause her health to take a turn for the worse. When she hears Baoyu and Baochai are getting married, she vomits blood and dies of a broken heart. Sadness and helplessness end up killing her.

Many other characters also die of illness, which starts as something small and progresses into full-blown pneumonia or tuberculosis. Grandmother Jia's death starts with indigestion, and Qingwen catching a cold from being outside in harsh weather turns to tuberculosis. Yuanchun and Yingchun are also hinted to have died from stress eating at their bodies.

Granny Liu, a distant relative who lives as a peasant, remarks that poor folk never get sick. Indeed only the rich die from these diseases, but it does not act as an indicator of rich folk having fragile health.

Rather, characters who die from illness experience powerlessness. Daiyu is unable to change her fate - being orphaned, she has zero power or say in who she marries. She gives up everything and chooses death, wishing her body will kill her. Qingwen is fired from the manor and dies with her name tainted, despairing and crying out for her mother. Grandmother Jia witnesses the downfall of the family and dies. Xifeng, already quite sick, is hit with a combo of her loan sharking being exposed, being blamed for Grandmother's funeral going to absolute shit, and servants refusing to listen to her orders. She ends up vomiting blood and dying shortly after.

The characters in the novel, faced with unbearable despair, end up being killed by their own bodies. Utterly consumed by their helplessness and misery, they face something akin to a distortion or becoming a peccatula.

Mundane, Inescapable Horrors

Even considering the historical context, Dream of the Red Chamber is filled with mundane horrors. Women lose their status the moment they marry, and Baoyu often faces struggles he can do nothing about.

Maids lose their homes as soon as their employment is terminated - being fired can mean death. The relationships cultivated with their masters and ladies remain fundamentally unequal. When Baoyu disappears at the end of the book, Xiren is married off to someone of her own status despite serving him for all his life. Though her marriage is a happy one, the prospect of losing her employment almost drives her to suicide. Some characters do kill themselves or die of illness after being terminated.

Baoyu also faces unfairness he can do nothing about. Most of the time, it is witnessing the misfortunes of the women around him. Qingwen, chased out and slowly killed by her own body. Yingchun, who he pleaded with his mother many times "Let's save her, we need to bring him down" to no avail. The maids he loved, chased out of the manor because "they are nothing but distractions for him". His parents and those around him break apart his feminine utopia.

"We should all just die already! What's the point of living!" "Why do girls need to marry when they grow up, and suffer? We used to play and write poems together, but now everyone's married or gone back home! It's all ruined!"

After failing to convince his mother to save Yingchun, Baoyu rants to Daiyu while crying. Because he knows married women are dirtied by men or lose their authentic selves, he is drawn to young unmarried girls.

Baoyu himself faces unfair violence. His father, annoyed at him over minor things, hears Huan tell him "Baoyu attempted to rape a maid, and she killed herself". Though a complete lie, his father flies into a rage and screams "Beat him!". He beats him until the skin comes off his buttocks.

Baoyu's mother pleads, "Don't! Who cares if you kill Baoyu, but what if Grandmother gets sick from this?". His father responds with "I have committed filial impiety by bringing him into the world! I'll kill him, get the rope!". Baoyu's buttocks are flayed and bleeding profusely by then.

Once the beating is forcefully stopped, Baoyu's mother sees the wounds and bursts into tears. She cries for her dead eldest son, yelling "If only you were alive, I wouldn't have minded a hundred of my sons dead!". Only Grandmother Jia seems truly upset that Baoyu was beaten. Baochai tells him "It's because of how you always act", while Xiren tells his mother "It's good he was beaten, hopefully he'll straighten up." Though everyone is thinking about Baoyu's own good, it manifests as abuse apologia.

Though small compared to the beating, when Granny Liu comes to visit, she is given a large welcome and a feast. Everyone in the manor decide to make fun of her - making her drink, handing her heavy chopsticks, tricking her into making an embarrassing poem about herself. They all laugh so much they spit their food out. Though Granny Liu doesn't mind, the image of a disgustingly rich family making fun of a poor old women leaves a somewhat bitter taste. A maid is also seen complaining "I don't want to touch the bowl she touched", and Daiyu calls her a "Locust with a ravenous appetite" after she leaves.

The chapter where Xifeng discovers her husband's affair is also quite terrible. Hearing the words "Xifeng is a demonic hag who should die" and "Ping'er should be the official wife, not her", she flies into a demonic rage and first slaps Ping'er despite her being innocent. She then throws open the door, slaps the mistress, screams and cries. Her husband also flies into a rage, grabbing his sword and chasing her while threatening to kill her.

Xifeng escapes, crying to Grandmother Jia that her husband is trying to kill her. Grandmother ends the fight, rebuking her husband and reassuring her "Men are just like that, it's nothing serious". Though Xifeng gets an apology, the attempted murder is never touched upon again. The mistress ends up hanging herself.

There are also many descriptions of the poor folk struggling under feudalism. When a member of the Jia family discovers a poor man owns twenty fans they desperately want, they lie about him missing payments and forcibly seize the fans. When it is time for the collection of annual tributes, a farmer is yelled at for his produce not being enough. It is stressed that the Jia family's lifestyle is paid for by the common folk they exploit. Even so, the Jia family somehow spend beyond their means and end up in debt.

The worst horror of all would be Baoyu's sham marriage. After losing his jade, they decide to marry him to Baochai to turn around his luck. Everyone around him decide to deceive him, telling him he'll marry Daiyu while preparing Baochai as his bride. Even Xiren agrees to deceive him. Feeling like Baoyu chose Baochai over her, Daiyu burns all her poems and the handkerchief Baoyu wrote on. She dies of a broken heart in her room, while the marriage is being officiated. Baoyu takes off Baochai's head covering, realizes she's not Daiyu, loses it. Even after his marriage, Baochai constantly reminds him of his duties as a male and the need to study. He has absolutely no time for grieving all his losses.

The book ending also leaves a strange taste in one's mouth. Baochai's brother, convicted of murder, is released through bribes, a sham trial and an imperial pardon of the whole Jia family. The banished members of the family are allowed to return, and their assets are un-seized. This is all thanks to Baoyu scoring seventh in the examinations - he ends up saving his family. But was it a family worth being saved? This bittersweet ending will likely affect Canto 8.

Remaining Questions

Hong Lu's Family Structure

Though Huan is a little brother in the original source, he is introduced as Hong Lu's older brother. Xichun, his third cousin, is simply described as his sister. Due to the absurdly complex family tree, Limbus Company likely simplified it. Hong Lu does not have any other little brothers, but the little brother mentioned in Limbus Company may be Jia Lan (his nephew). This is because the need for a deceased older brother may disappear, due to Limbus Huan's existence.

The concubines will also likely be changed, due to Limbus Company's lack of outward gender separations. This means that Tanchun and Huan will likely not be children of concubines.

The grandfather Hong Lu mentions is a total mystery - from the start of the book, Grandmother Jia is widowed.

Both Daiyu and Baochai are Baoyu's cousins, leaving some issues around the love story plot. Since Hong Lu has never mentioned either, they may not even appear in the story as a human. However, making them strangers would not really fit with the themes - this is a mystery for when the canto comes out.

When did Hong Lu leave?

Hong Lu's attitude and personality seem close to "Baoyu after losing his jade" - however, towards the end of the book after this happens, Grandmother, Daiyu, Xifeng and Yingchun are all dead. It's unlikely they would host the Jia family head wars with half the cast dead. And more importantly, Hong Lu's jade eye is very much present.

Though Hong Lu could also be compared to "Baoyu at the very end, reaching enlightenment and realizing fate cannot be changed", the issue of the dead family members remain. Hong Lu has an air of learned helplessness, but not so much enlightened and ready to return to the heavenly realm.

Looking at the timeline may not help much either, considering that the grandfather may still be alive. One theory I have for when he left the family is "The transitional period in Baoyu's generation of children". Baoyu's life of fun and poetry begins to change slowly as they grow up - masculinity is pushed on him, while the girls are forced to marry or fired from their job. Though Baoyu has no lust, he is told that the girls are a distraction and that he must study as a boy.

Baoyu wishes very strongly for things to stay the same, for his place of belonging to remain untouched. When his sisters or maids face pain or misfortune, he expresses anger and sadness. I theorize that Hong Lu's wish is "To change his family and environment himself, not just watch it shatter". Baoyu's struggle against feudalist society and gender inequality may connect to the reason for Hong Lu joining the company.

Baoyu's Femininity

Baoyu cannot be spoken about without mentioning his female relations, but gender in Limbus Company is expressed quite differently than the source. This is a large point of mystery as I currently write this.

Baoyu envelops femininity from birth - as a toddler, when doing the traditional birthday grab, Baoyu goes for the objects associated with women. At age 8, he proclaims "Girls' bodies are made of water, boys' bodies are made of mud. When I see girls, I feel clean and refreshed. But when I see boys, I feel all disgusting!" From this, his worship for the feminine can be discerned. When he visits the Land of Illusion, the fairy tells him "You're not lustful in the sexual sense, but you desire deep friendships with women". Indeed, Baoyu is not flirtatious or easily swooned - he simply loves playing with his sisters and maids.

It is also not as simple as Baoyu loving all women. He dislikes old women who lecture him, and does not have much interest in married women. He also has close friendships with feminine men, such as an actor who plays female roles. When he heads to school with Qin Zhong, they are both attracted to pretty boys in their class. Homosexual attraction is also touched upon within the book a few times. The femininity Baoyu wishes for is "A woman who can live as herself, unburdened by the shackles of marriage".

Baoyu dislikes both men and women who lecture him about fame and success. He claims that "Old people of the past just said all this fancy stuff, so they could guide the dirty men that come after them. I am sadly born a man, but not even the women are spared from these impure ideologies!" Baoyu hates the male expectations placed upon him, to be successful and get a good career. It is one of the reasons why he is drawn to women.

There are also many who theorize Baoyu to be transgender, as he fixates on blending into the women rather than desiring them sexually or romantically. He always spends time with the girls, sitting with them during banquets and becoming part of the all-girls poetry club since its inception. Even after Xiren becomes his chamber maid, there are almost no implications that they have sex. Instead, he is consistently shown as wanting to be "one of the girls". Grandmother Jia remarks, "Perhaps you were a maid in your past life - perhaps you were meant to be born as a girl!"

After masculinity is pushed on Baoyu and he is dragged away from the girls, his emotional state begins to waver. He cries and wails every time someone gets married, saying they are all leaving him one by one. Baochai and Xiren often remind him he is not a child anymore, and he must act like the man he is.

Because of this, the rejection of societal roles will likely be a large theme in Canto 8.

[illusionsgobrrrr]

Predictions

Guys guys what what if Gregor gave Hong Lu a piggy back ride because canto 8 Is going to be BAD

[threeleggedbike]

limbus company season 6 bp ego predictionss

i hashed this out somewhere else to see if im psychic once canto 8 drops and figured id drop it somewhere public if anyones got any thoughts

(also shoving the text dumps under a read more)

with exception of new abnos being introduced, my calls for season 6s egos are:

stuck in heaven

star luminary

spider of marriage?

new abno thats wrath-based (or even gluttony)

Stuck in Heaven

eyedballs motif (+ immortality/heavenly themes?)

stuck in heaven > land of illusion (hong lus base ego + dream of the red chamber allusion)

"those eyes dont care if the host twitches in pain. you are not what the eyes are looking at" > hong lus self being his jade eye and hes inhabiting a vessel theory + his relation to his family as a precious possession (hes eyeball and hes looked at a lot (because of his eyeball))

2nd bp WAW ego holder very likely for sinclair as the only other sinner without a WAW. kinda ties to sinclairs themes w kromer/apocalyptic future + its ego gift being late-bloomers tattoo maybe?

Star Luminary

ego gift is tomorrows fortune > hong lus family being spiritual/superstitious people + mention of them using fortune tellers

tranquil personality + hoplessness themes (wanting to return to return to somewhere but cant anymore) > hong lus passive acceptance of fate

(+ties with sinclairs themes of family + foresight motifs)

he is blue like marble balls (like his ball, the eye)

i change my mind for this one this one keeps popping up for every abno ego prediction since like season 5 lmao i just noticed the clouds forming hands clasping the guy ok hold up im putting this one back on the table bc hes resource

Spider of Marriage

2 people inhabiting 1 unstable form > vessel theory

"Those congratulatory flowers may be acting as a curse now, preventing them from leaving the nest. Those flowers were not planted or raised by the couple" > trapping family/formal expectations themeing + the shiy going on in the hong lu family district tournament

i stole this call from someone elses betting but idk how much im actually inclined for this one bc like star luminary its been put up there since heathcliffs canto lol like i see this more for mersault