#but i think its good for Leo to see Raph have some emotions

[angelpuns]

Doing this all in front little Leo would put some negative energy on him as the "You're not wanted" or " these aren't your brother " vibes

O o f e d yep :/ Unfortunately he's gotten very used to compartmentalizing all this stuff lately so he probably will not be bringing it up to anyone anytime soon :)

Though it is gonna be a pretty impactful motivator for him to 'get back to normal' sooner rather than after, even if it could somehow go wrong ;)

[dandylovesturtles]

havin' all these Splinter and Leo thoughts. augh.

this is partly the fault of @/turtleblogatlast's post about Leo just wanting to make Splinter proud.

post-movie

...

Seven days post-invasion, and Leo is feeling (relatively) pretty good. Sure, he's still on a truly ridiculous amount of painkillers and he can't walk two steps without collapsing, but he's able to stay awake and talk to his family and considering where he thought he would be right about now, well... that's everything.

So yeah, he's feeling pretty good. He just finished his lunch of soup and a protein shake, warm and a little drowsy while he listens to April talk about some of the more ridiculous conspiracy theories that have started spreading on the surface. Donnie's tinkering with one of his smaller inventions while he listens, Mikey is nestled in Raph's lap, and everything is calm and cozy in their makeshift medbay.

And then his dad walks in and says, "I would like to talk to Blue, please. Alone."

And suddenly Leo doesn't feel so good anymore.

"Aha, wait," he says quickly, reaching out and grabbing April's sleeve just before she rises from her chair. "Whatever it is, you can say it in front of everyone, right?"

Splinter shakes his head. "This is a conversation I think it is best we have in private." He makes a shooing motion at the others, and April pulls her sleeve from Leo's fingers with a helpless shrug.

"See ya in a few, Leo," she says, then walks out. The others look from Splinter, to him, then back to Splinter, and one by one they each get up and shuffle out, too, with their own hasty farewells.

Traitors, every single one of them.

The door closes, and Leo finds himself alone with Splinter for the first time since coming back from Staten Island. Or at least, the first time he can remember. He was pretty out of it the first few days; most of what he remembers is muddled and confused. And embarrassing. He cried a lot more than he'd care to admit.

Splinter hops into chair April was sitting in and pulls it closer; he has to stay standing to be anywhere near eye level with Leo. He wishes he could read Splinter's face, but his expression is giving nothing away. Sometimes it's easy to forget he spent a not-insignificant part of his life as an actor, until something like this happens.

Leo decides to speak before he can. Head him off at the pass, or something.

"If you're going to yell at me, just remember my eardrums are already damaged."

Which is true - turns out being 1, too close to an exploding alien spaceship and 2, getting punched in the head repeatedly by an alien very mad about said exploding spaceship is bad for the ears, even when you don't have outer ears like a human. So super loud noises are a bad idea right now, and thus Leo cannot be yelled at. Flawless logic; maybe he can keep using that every time he gets in trouble.

For the first time, his dad's expression shifts, just a little. A deeper frown, a heavier set to his brow.

"You think I came in here to yell at you?"

Leo feels his stomach twist. Does he have to spell it out? "I mean, didn't you? That's usually what kicking everyone else out is leading up to."

"I see..." Splinter is still unreadable, looking a little too intensely at Leo. "And what do you think I want to yell at you about?"

He really does want it spelled out. Leo suddenly realizes that there won't be any yelling because this is his punishment: to admit everything he's done, to speak all his sins for his dad's ears. Lay it all out in his own tongue and show that he understands, really and truly, the depths of his screwups.

Oh, he understands. He understands it so well he may choke on the words.

"...For losing the key," he says finally, and it stings on its way out. He hasn't talked about it since it happened; every time he tries to say anything to the others, they shush him, saying, "It's okay, Leo, everything is fine now."

It's not okay, and everything isn't fine, and this is when he finally hears about it.

Finally, an identifiable emotion on Splinter's face: horror, dawning clear and present. And Leo doesn't understand that, because doesn't Splinter know he lost the key? He was there for that conversation, wasn't he? Leo's memories of that day have grown a little hazy between the drugs and the recovery and the fact that thinking about it for too long makes him go fuzzy around the edges, but he's pretty sure he remembers Splinter being there. He flicked popcorn at Leo's head. He probably should have done more than that; maybe then Leo wouldn't have made such a mess of things.

Splinter doesn't say anything right away, just stares at Leo with that horrified expression, and the silence is so scary that Leo starts filling it without even thinking.

"I was kidding about the whole... not yelling at me thing. I know I deserve it. I mean, I was fooling around, doing what you and Raph told me not to do, and I doomed the whole world doing it! Some leader I am, right? And I know I'm not exactly your favorite son to begin with, and that's fair, because I keep letting you down, but this is definitely my worst screwup to date, and you yell at me when I don't close the fridge door all the way or throw balls around the TV room so why wouldn't you yell at me for destroying the planet, right...?"

His voice peters out at the end, too hoarse to continue. That's the most words he's strung together over the last week, and for the first time he's glad for his injuries, for stopping him from spewing any more embarrassing word vomit just to fill the air.

Splinter is still looking at him with that same horrified expression. If anything, he just looks more upset, which means that Leo at least accomplished his goal.

Leo's waiting for the yelling to start, but when Splinter finally says something, it's, "You think I have a favorite son?" throwing Leo for a loop once again.

"Uh, yeah?" he says, because that's all there is to say. He's always assumed it's Donnie - the "funny one", the one who fixes Splinter's TV when it's broken, and the only one of them likely to get a real job and move out of the house. But even if it's not Donnie, it's gotta be Mikey, or Raph. His brothers are amazing and talented, and all Leo has ever been good at is winning the Lair Games.

Splinter closes his eyes a moment, and when he opens them his face moves back to a more neutral expression. "I do not have a favorite son," he says, firm and serious. "I love all of you just the same."

Leo thinks that can't be true - if it is, he feels bad for the other guys. But he doesn't think he can just say that, so he says, "Yeah, Dad, of course," instead.

Splinter looks a bit crestfallen. "You don't believe me?" he asks, and shoot. Leo has no idea how to respond to that.

"...I know you love us," is what he says. And that's true, it is! He just doesn't know how his dad could like him as much as the others.

Splinter's expression turns sad. He reaches out and lays a furry hand on Leo's arm, careful of his bandages and all the many wires he's hooked to. "You think you doomed the world?"

"I lost the key," Leo repeats. "It was all my fault. It's why I had to..." His voice fumbles over the words, and he revises. "It's why it had to be me."

Splinter's mouth twists. He climbs out of the chair and onto the mattress, careful not to jostle Leo as he settles down on his knees.

"Blue," he says softly, gently palming Leo's face this time. "None of this was your fault."

Leo's stomach twists again. He thought he was being punished, but somehow this is worse.

"Yes it was," he argues. "I lost the key," for the third time, "and... and I ignored the order to retreat, and got Raph captured, and and and, I ignored the guys and tried to force our way into Metro Tower, and it was me who told Donnie to try to fly that stupid ship, and because of me Mikey had to-"

"Leonardo," says Splinter, sharp, and Leo goes silent. His dad looks devastated, but he keeps his hand on Leo's cheek, brushing with his thumb, and for the first time Leo realizes his skin is wet. Splinter sighs heavily, his entire frame seeming to droop with the weight of it.

"Leonardo," he repeats, softly this time. "You did not doom the world."

"But-"

A furry finger on his lip quiets him.

"You did not doom the world," Splinter repeats, once again firm and serious. "You did not take the theft of the key seriously, because you did not know what it was, the threat it represented. But it was the Foot Clan who chose to use that key, fully knowing what evil it would unleash. That is not on you, my son. The responsibility falls squarely on them."

Leo doesn't know how much he can believe that - isn't it their job to stop the Foot Clan? But Splinter looks so sure as he says it, and his hand is still tender on Leo's cheek, and for the first time a little bit of doubt seeps into Leo's heart, telling him that maybe, just maybe, this wasn't all his fault after all.

But still...

"Even if that's true," he says, with heavy emphasis on the if, "everything I did after that-"

"You are young," his dad interrupts. "You are inexperienced. You are learning. And the amount of growth you showed us all, even over just that one day... You shined as brightly as I know you can."

Again, Leo's stomach does a twist - but it's a happier one, this time. Splinter's voice is sincere, leaving no room for doubt, and Leo can almost, almost believe that this is true, that his dad has believed in him from the very beginning. Has seen something in him, whatever it was that led him to make Leo the leader, that lead to him putting trust in Leo.

He just wishes he felt like he'd done more to earn it.

"You did not doom the world," says his dad again. "You saved it. But, it never should have been like that to begin with. You should never have been facing down such a fierce foe so young, especially as alone as you boys were. And you-"

His voice becomes choked up, and Leo's heart lurches.

"You... sacrificed yourself to save us all. I... I am your father, and I... could not protect you."

He's crying. His dad is crying, and Leo feels panic, reaching out to try and stop this.

"Dad-"

"No." Splinter holds up a hand, giving his head a hard shake. "All I ever wanted for you boys was to save you from the sacrifices asked of our family. And yet I could not - and for that, you paid dearly. You almost paid the ultimate price, and we almost lost you forever."

A thick knot forms in Leo's throat, and he can barely get out, "I'm okay, Dad, I'm here."

"Yes you are." Splinter squeezes his shoulder desperately. "You are here. You are safe. But that doesn't change that it should not have been you to begin with."

Leo watches in dawning horror as Splinter steps back, then kneels over on the mattress.

"This is why I came in here, Blue. Not to yell at you. To apologize."

He presses his forehead against the sheets.

"I am so sorry that I could not protect you."

He's crying. So is Leo, openly now. He reaches out for his dad, fumbling for his shoulders and urging him to straighten up.

"No, Dad... This wasn't your fault!"

"But-"

"No! It was just... it was just a really, really shitty thing that happened, okay? It was the Foot Clan, and the Krang, but it wasn't- it wasn't..."

Splinter raises his face and looks at him, and suddenly the words he's been trying to get Leo to believe for the last several minutes barrel into him and Leo crumbles.

"...I didn't have to do it," he says.

"No." Splinter gets up, coming closer. "You had nothing to atone for. You did it because you are brave, and you are kind, but this was never yours to fix."

Leo sucks in one harsh breath, then another, and then he's sobbing harder than he ever has in his life, and his dad hugs him tight, his arms warm and his fur soft where Leo buries his face in his shoulder.

All the feelings he's pushed aside - the ones he didn't think he had the right to feel, because he'd had to do it, he had to make up for his mistakes - bubble over, gripping him with grief and despair but also relief, that he's still here to cry and be hugged by his dad.

"I was so scared."

"I know."

"I thought I wouldn't see you guys again."

"I know. We thought we had lost you, too."

"I just... I didn't know what else to do... I couldn't let him... I couldn't..."

"Shhh, it's alright. It's over now. We're all safe."

Leo hugs his dad back, as tightly as he can with his injuries, and sobs and sobs until he's all out of tears. And all along, his dad tells him he is safe, he is good, and he is loved.

Later, Leo feels even better than he had before.

[imababblekat]

Chase

Anon Request, “Funny ask here! An expert free runner (jumping from building to building) catches the turtles on camera. The boys planned to do the same intimidation act like with April but are shocked when they jet off managing to keep a good distance. Then once they think they have them cornered on a construction site the boys fall through the building roof landing in waist high wet concrete. Looking down at them the runner blows them a kiss before taking off. (P.S. their cool though and just keep the photo as a momento)How do the 4 react to seeing them again when they literally bump into each other on the rooftops?”

 ◌ Part Two ◌

~xXx~

You hadn’t intentionally meant to take a picture of the turtles. If anything it was their fault they ended up in your shot. After finishing a course you’d been aiming at for over a week, you thought it’d be a great moment to capture, but hadn’t expected to catch anyone else in the background of your roof top photo. Much less those anyone’s being four mutant ninja turtles. It was the squak of surprise at the sudden flash of your mini Polaroid that alerted you to them.

Seeing the turtles left you somewhere between an intriguing shock and confused fear, even if seeing one of them rapidly rub at their flashed eyes while over exaggerate about how they burned did indeed give you a little giggle. There wasn’t much time to process the whiplash of emotions however, as one of them, clad in red and quite burly out of the bunch, came marching your way. Not a word had a chance of making its way from their lips, as your body did what it was trained so hard to do, making a mad dash across the old market roof top. Just like that, the four brothers found themselves in a sudden grand chase. “Great job, Raph!”, Leo snapped at said aggravated terrapin, making easy work of hopping over a fenced roof. “I ain’t even do anythin’! It’s your fault!”, Raph retaliated, vaulting over some exterior vents. “Oh, and how is that exactly?!” “You’re the one who gave us the all clear!” Bouncing from wall to wall as the group followed you down into an old parking garage Donnie interjected between the two argumentative brothers. “Guy’s is now really the time?! We kind of have something urgent on our hands.” “Yeah! Like how I can’t see their sick moves because my eyes are still having a disco party!”, Mikey continued to blink rapidly, nearly missing the open edge if not for Donnie giving him aid with his staff. Rolling his own eyes, Leo brushed off the youngest, keeping track of your movements as you scaled your way into a construction building across the way. “Come on, let’s get this over with. There’s no where to go past that building, we’ll catch them there.” All the years of free running across New York, you’d never felt as thrilled as you did now. Sure, it was still terrifying in a way being chased by four giant creatures who were quite nimble despite their enormous size, but you had to be honest in the way their pursuit brought on an adrenaline like no other. They put your skills to the test in a way you could never personally do yourself, and as you swung from a bar into another construction building, you felt elation rush through your body. At least, till you found yourself caught in between a rock and a hard place, staring at a concrete solid wall with no where to escape. Hearing the collective sounds of heavy foot falls, you quickly turned around to find the four beings surrounding the only path you’d have of escape. Seeing the glares upon their faces, your racing heart now beat rapidly for a different reason. Taking a moment to even his breathing, Leonardo stepped forward, watching your reactions carefully. “We’re not going to hurt you. Just. . .don’t scream.”, he spoke as calmly as he could, hands raised to show he had no misleading intentions. You said nothing, just continued to take control of your own breathing as your eyes shifted between him and his brothers. “I’m Leonardo, and these are-“ “I’m Michelangelo, but you can just call me Mikey!”, the orange banded turtle cut in, shoving past his brother and winking at you. “The guy in purple is Donatello, and the one in red who mean mugged you is Raphael! What’s your name angel? I say angel, because there’s no way you could have crossed those alleyways so eloquently without a pair of wings~.” “Mikey!”, all three other brothers shouted in unison. “What?!” With a light groan, Donnie reminded him of their current objective. “We’re here to get the photo. Not you a love interest.” “Oooooh right, the photo!” Your eyes shifted from Raphael, back to Mikey as he moved closer, three fingered hand reaching out. Sifting into your pocket it didn’t take long to pull out the small square picture. Despite it being exposed and grainy in some parts, the tangibility of the photo and the story it now held caused a surprising sorrow in your heart to have to depart with it. Yet, gazing back up to the four mutants before you, you understood why they’d want it. With the way you reacted, who could imagine how others might to their discovery. You met Mikey half way, extending your own hand to give him the small photo, fingers lightly brushing the other. All of a sudden, a loud crack was heard, and all five of you stood frozen. Before anyone could blink, the floor caved in, the four brothers descending down into dust and debris, and you with quick reflexes pressing tight back against the concrete wall. Once the clouded air had settled, you quickly peaked over into the newly established hole, a surge of worry for the ninja quartet. Relief washed through as you caught sight of the brothers who had landed in a mucky puddle, most likely sore from the fall but seemingly fine otherwise. As the boys groaned and started another round of arguing with one another, you suddenly remembered the photo and quickly checked your closed fist to find it still there. Carefully bringing the picture before you to look at once more, a thought had emerged. This was the most fun you had in long time, the most alive you’ve felt in a while. Recalling the kind smile Mikey had given you and Leo’s mindful approach as to not frighten you, you considered the growing idea in your mind even more. Making up your mind, you gently tucked the photo back into your pocket with a gleeful grin. You swore to yourself that night to never show anyone that picture, but as long as you held on to it, you knew you’d eventually wind up seeing the turtles again. With that, you skipped from the tiny ledge along the wall, and whistled to catch the turtles’ attention. “Bye boys! It was nice meeting you!” Loud shouts and scrambling could be heard as each one clambered over the other, slipping back and forth into the deep puddle in an effort to get up and to you, but by the time they’d get themselves straightened out, you’d be long gone with anticipating hope of the next chase.

~xXx~

[bulbabutt]

ok i wanna talk about tmnt 2007 and the way i think this is the best version of a leo and raph conflict, and also leo as a character

for context i've been talking about tmnt things kinda chronologically, so i'm gonna mention an unconditional understanding in 03 i bring that up in a previous post about that show and the family dynamics in it here if u want context for what i mean

i think this movie can really be appreciated for the place it has between adaptations, and the way character-wise everyone is more or less the same as they've always been but with a more interpersonal relationship as the focus. the main villain of this movie doesn't really matter, the conflict, the fights, that's not where the strength is (although, it is reflected in the conflict and ill get into that)

so tmnt 07 is one movie that kind of combines the 90s movies, 03, and mirage all in one place, and tonally is is similar to the show that will come after it, 12. if the 90s movies give us conflict between leo and raph, and 03 gives us the unconditional understanding between the two, 07 takes these two aspects and creates a story out of it. (debate in your own mind if this movie is a literal sequel to the 90s ones or not, its not that important)

the set up of this movie is we are in a post killing the shredder world. leo has been told by splinter to go get training elsewhere, there isn't much context for what happened to cause this, but i would bet its a similar cause to 03, where he had ptsd and lashed out at his father to which splinter sends him to his grandfather to get better advice than he thinks he can give him. the difference here is there is no grandfather hes sent to, he's sent on a journey of self discovery around the world to learn about it and himself.

the thing about leo as a character, and this goes for all leos, he's has a very black and white way of thinking. leo thinks he's been sent away because he's failing his family, that he's not a good enough leader. so he stays away for longer because he doesn't feel good enough. he finds a place where he can help and he does that. leo always needs a bad guy to fight, or else he's fighting his own demons. so he stays there for a long time. finding a place he can help quietly, never letting anyone see him, and becoming a legend to the locals because no one knows what's really going down.

april manages to track him down and tell him about whats going on with his brothers, how they're holding up without him and without being a team, and i think thats a good reminder for him that they miss him. he doesn't tell april but he finds a way home only after hearing about this. when he arrives and speaks to splinter, he says "i was so caught up in my own world i forgot about everyone else, i'm sorry i failed" he still doesn't feel like he's done anything of worth.

i'm gonna jump in here and say, you know how we all love rise raph? cuz hes the big brother and some traits that come from that are like being overprotective and taking on everyone else's problems and trying to handle emotions alone? well that's a trait thats usually leo's. but the difference with leo is sometimes that concept doesn't make you as likeable. sometimes it means you come off like a nagging mother hen who thinks they know best but in an arrogant way. sometimes it makes you mirror being a parent when no one asked you to be. leo's less of a passionate character than raph, hes more analytical and full of himself. he takes splinters lessons more seriously, and hes always trying to do whats best for everyone so they don't have to worry. this is something evident with 03 and 12, but its so specifically noticeable here because these traits make up the main conflict. i just want to bring that up so we start seeing leo as no different than some of our other favourite iterations.

splinter responds to his apology by saying "you owe me no apology, but perhaps you should talk to raphael, your absence has been particularly difficult for him, though he'll never admit it" but when leo greets him raph is brushing him off.

on raph's end, this is him being angry that leo left, and angry that hes back and everyone wants to pretend that he wasn't gone at all. as if the time he was gone didn't happen. hes lashing out because he too cant handle talking about these emotions. and hes lashing out by becoming a vigilante in his own right.

i see a lot of people misunderstand what raph is doing here, that "this is what the turtles always do" or "this is the same as what leo was doing how could he be mad" when that is not true. that's what casey does. its true that both leo and raph have been fighting bad guys on their own (as a way of dealing with their issues) but raphael has made himself a costume to disguise himself which means hes prepared to be seen. hes riding a motorcycle around, which is loud. this isn't stealthy, this is aggressive. his vigilante name is in the news. the turtles are ninjas, they silently help where they can and fade into the night and, very specifically, they work as a team. these turtles live in a dangerous world, what if something happened to him while no one else was around? they would never know because he never told anyone.

so raph is lashing out, and leo doesn't have a good way of dealing with it. he tries to slide back into being leader, doing what splinter says but he forgets how his brothers are, and with raph egging them on they get into fights they shouldn't. which leo specifically gets in trouble for, as the oldest brother, and as their leader. leo tries to be this better leader hes supposed to have learned to be, but it doesn't work and raph ends up back out there in his vigilante get up. leo tracks down said vigilante, and in his peak "leo knows best" moment, lectures him, not knowing its his brother. there's a scuffle, and the mask comes off. let me point out that casey knew this vigilante was raph but his own brother didn't, because leo has been gone that long.

so lets get into what this fight is really about. on the surface, its "wow you've been going out at night alone putting yourself in dangerous situations with no backup" and "so what you're just mad that i can do it without you" which leo would be right about. and this is the analytical leo, he really thinks that's all that's going on here. what hes missing is that raphael has missed him as a brother, and hes hurt that leonardo left and just came back no big deal. that he wants everything to be normal. raphael is always a character with big emotions and the only outlet he knows to express them is violence.

leo, who as we've established, went away to learn to be better for his family is angry that raph doesn't see that. he's mad raph doesn't appreciate the effort he went to, and he thinks he's just angry because he's not in charge. each brother sees the other as being arrogant.

this leads them to the big fight. no one can disagree that this is the best part of the movie (seriously watch the movie for this scene if you haven't seen it before) , but the real best part of it is that raphael wins. raph proves hes just as capable of a fighter as his brother, if not more-so. he uses those sais as they're supposed to be used, catching leo's swords and in a fit of rage he fucking breaks them, leaving leo defenceless and completely vulnerable to attack. you'd think he'd be smug that leo lost but he pauses, going through a lot of emotions in a moment, questioning what he's doing, why hes doing it. and leo finally looks his brother in the eye and sees raph going through something he didn't before, realizing raph hasn't been angry that he's back, but that he's angry that he ever left. they don't have a conversation, because raph cant handle all these emotions and he runs away, crying as he does. leo just watches him, taking it all in and realizing the error of his ways.

hearing leo scream turns raph around, but he's too late to help him, and this is where raph regrets his own actions because right then, leo is also proven right in his argument. because he gets kidnapped. if leo hadn't chased raph down, there is a very good chance that would have been raph being kidnapped. with no backup, with no one knowing what happened to him. that's why its important that the turtles are a team.

raph goes home full of guilt, and there's a good moment of showing how he cannot open up emotionally here, because he grunts, punches the wall, knocks over some weights and forces splinter to ask him what happened, because that's how raphael is. he laments to his father that he finally understands why leo is the better son, proving that to raph none of this was about their team, but about their family. conflating the two ideas in his head. splinter gives him a talk that mirrors what he said to leo when he returned earlier in the movie, encouraging him that he is a good son and brother. this shows that these brothers have very similar insecurities about their value to their family.

the rest of the movie plays out as you expect, they go save leo, they stop the bad guy, they reconcile and behave as the team they're supposed to be. but i just want to point out that the villains plot is mirrored in leo and raph's conflict. the 'villain' here is a brother who has been cursed to be immortal without his own siblings. for 3000 years he lived to regret his actions and decided to undo his curse, but he used the cursed stone versions of his siblings to do so. no communication, just thinking he knew better (which maybe he did) and lying about it. that caused them to lie to him right back, and try to overthrow him and destroy the world. this is just one family whose inner turmoil could have destroyed the world. you might say, oh that's not a very interesting turtles villain, but its not supposed to be. its not the focus.

this movie is all about the complicated relationship between a family, and i see so many people talk about it by trying to ask who's right and who's wrong. that's not how it works. life is more complicated than that, people are more complicated than that. its boring to look at this movie and just say "leo is wrong and raph is right" because that's not even how the characters see it. this movie is about leo and raph being mirrors of each other in their arrogance, in their insecurities, and in their stubborn pig-headed refusal to let the other know how they feel. splinter says as much at the start of the movie. this whole movie shows that without each other, they need to be fighting something so they don't get swept up by their own emotions, which they are both bad at processing. they are SUCH brothers. they are so similar emotionally, yet they have such a hard time understanding each other.

personally 07 leo is my favourite leo for his complexity, his flaws his strength, his growth. its sad we never got those sequel movies to get into the other brothers heads as much as we got into leo and raphs heads.

also nolan north and james arnold taylor gave the best vocal performances in this movie and they deserve all the credit for it.

[the-tmnt-ficfinder]

Ficfinder finds: Times Five

Rottmnt Fanfic Summary: "You," Donnie breathed as Mikey looked just as lost as the rest of them, "I found out what that staff did. I know what happened to you. What you are." Leo blinked at the weird accusation, "Wha? Oh, Dee, I told you to throw that thing out." "Yeah! You did!" Donnie bit out. "Donnie," Raph started to move forward, "What's-" "So, then, who are you?" Donnie snarled. Leo smiled, "I'm Leo." "Which. Part." Donnie began, stomping towards him until Mikey jumped in the way. Or, Leo gets struck by a mystic beam that splits him into five parts of himself; literally. And they don't seem interested in coming back together

Times Five: Appraisal and Ratings

(Don't know what fanfic "Appraisal and Ratings" means? Check out my explanation on my Main Masterpost! Looking for a different fanfic to read? Head on over to my Fanfic List Masterpost!)

Disclaimer: This fanfic is completed and is written by @pickledcarrotsandradish, so go give them some love and support!!

The fanfic ratings are not based on quality, favoritism, or how good I think it is, but rather, how intense a subject may be. Like a movie review, or the tags on Ao3, letting the readers know what to expect.

Plot: 💛💛💛💛💛

"Plot is five out of five!! The plot for this fic is highly entertaining, and interesting!! It contains some really well placed plot twists, and some fun little changes to the classic 'split up into various personalities' trope that I really enjoyed seeing!! Excellent story indeed!!"

Suspense/Mystery: 💛💛💛💛🖤

"Suspense/Mystery is four out of five!! The suspense and mystery for this story is honestly quite surprising!! As I stated earlier, this story has some really good, quite unexpected plot twists!! Every time you think you've got it figured out, a new plot twist swoops in, making you rethink it all!"

Angst/Hurt: 💛💛💛💛🖤

"Angst/Hurt is four out of five!! The angst and hurt in this fic is much more on the emotional side. While there are a few physical angsty moments, the focus is mainly on emotional angsts as this fic is quite literally about five different versions of Leo all with various emotions."

Fluff/Comfort: 💛💛💛🖤🖤

"Fluff/Comfort is three out of five!! Times Five has a good and fair amount of comfort in it. A good riveting plot, and plenty of sad or dramatic bits, with a healthy dose of comfort to balance it all out!!"

Emotions Conveyed: 💛💛💛💛🖤

"Emotions Conveyed is four out of five!! Its the plot twists that really get you in this fic!! Every time you get comfortable, a plot twist comes along, and yanks you right up!! This fic also has some really good emotional scenes!!"

Drama/Tension Level: 💛💛💛💛🖤

"Drama/Tension Level is four out of five!! There's a lot of tension and drama between Leo and his brothers in this fic, which makes total sense. It ranges from lighthearted banter, to life changing conversations all throughout the fic!"

Triggers: 💛💛🖤🖤🖤

"Triggers are two out of five!! Times Five is not super triggering, though it does have triggers in it. Unresolved trauma, plenty of strong emotions, unintentional self-harm, panic, etc. Keep in mind, its not super intense, but it is there."

Legibility (Reading): 💛💛💛💛💛

"Legibility (Reading) is five out of five!! Times Five runs on the slightly shorter side, making it a highly riveting, short story!! Very enjoyable to read!! Its very vanilla, with no crazy texts, or images either."

Legibility (Audio): 💛💛💛💛💛

"Legibility (Audio) is five out of five! Once again, very vanilla, very very enjoyable. I listened to each one of these chapters in audio book format, and they all were great!!"

Length: 💛💛🖤🖤🖤

"Length is two out of five!! Times Five is completed, and has a chapter count of 14 chapters total!!"

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Times Five: Chapter List

(Chapters will be added as I rate and appraise them ^^)

(Yet to be added)

[qoldenskies]

i genuinely adore the way that anatawa hitorijanai/the third part of the finale brings back the little motif with leo falling and raph jumping to save him in bug busters because it was such an important moment that really propelled raph along in his own abilities (although i personally interpret mystic powers as being more related to the individual and their emotions, while ninpo is more about. yknow. the family and their trust with each other since its hereditary, i see it as separate. post for later) but i always find it SO WEIRD that it's treated as like. a trust fall. because leo falling was not a trust fall. it was the opposite, actually.

is it representative of raph putting himself aside for the sake of his family? oh yeah. i do believe its a point that marks a turning point in the way he perceives the role of the oldest and leader, which is why i like the parallel because he puts the same into his younger brothers' hands. but was it really an act of trust? hell no! raph spent the entire episode NOT TRUSTING LEO. they were put in that exact position because raph cared a lot about being right just as much as leo did, and draxum dropped leo because raph didn't listen to him!!

leo pushed and bitched and begged pretty much that entire episode to be listened to, and raph never truly gave him the floor because he was expecting him from the get-go to be cynical and selfish. and even though leo can be those things at times, it didnt mean he wasnt a voice worth not listening to. and that did nearly get him killed! joke aside, leo shouting about his last words meant he really, really did not actually expect raph to do something like that, and raph jumped in a blind, panicked act of desperation for leo's sake. i think learning he SHOULD trust him from that point was something that should've been clarified, or they should've left the parallel more implicit tbh.

but you know what IS an excellent parallel to bug busters? the movie! their roles are reversed! raph has well learned the importance of taking things seriously and is loudly pushing for caution, and leo is pushing him away and shrugging it off like he's just being too pessimistic, its pretty much a HERE COMES THE FUN POLICE WEEWOO. which i think is like, the equivalent to raph's "she's a nice spider lady, why are you being so negative, do you just want to prove me wrong? you're up to something"

and i think a big reason raph is so loud about the lesson he's trying to pound into leo's skull is because of the exact lesson he learned in bug busters, because he definitely does actually see a lot of himself in leo (i do love when people play around with raph going "oh god did i teach him that" about some of leo's more self-destructive behavior btw, that's good A team angst) and i dont think he wants leadership back at all. he's perfectly fine with splitting the load, because they already have been The Big Brothers from the start and leo's been his second in command and cheerleader a lot before. but leo in his eyes is being vindictive and refusing to take this seriously, and i'm sure for raph it hits a little close to home! projection moment

this was honestly just me trying to say that i think the perfect leo/raph roof moment parallel should be their fight when raph is krang-ified, leo telling raph to go save donnie and mikey, and then him leaping into the prison dimension, just like raph leapt for him, because there was no other choice in order to save lives. it's the exact same type of move, bonus points with how leo points it out, "hero moves are your style".

(also potential parallel if you choose to interpret raph's tears as he jumps off the roof as overwhelming guilt because he suddenly realizes that his own choices brought them to this point, because like.... leo crying in the prison dimension..... same thing)

point is, love the raph trust fall in the third part of the finale. but i think the point of him catching leo was that he didn't trust him, and i think it wouldve been better to the finale trust fall more about how he's grown from the behavior that put them there back in bug busters.

OH AND AND AND this is compounded in by the B team moment RIGHT AFTER THAT with donnie and mikey, because that is an ACTUAL example of two brothers that genuinely, earnestly trust each other. donnie tells mikey to let go intentionally and mikey doesn't hesitate, because he knows donnie will always be there to catch him and he trusts him wholeheartedly. the difference is jarring and most likely intentional.

[djpachipikachu]

What are some of your favorite character relationships/dynamics in TMNT, and why? Is there anything that you particularly like seeing explored with them in fan works (art, writing, comics, etc)?

ooh ! hmm thats a good question

a bit basic but raph and leo’s dynamics in any iteration are among my top ones … not typically the conflict of it but more of just their friendlier interactions like the two oldest brothers dynamic in official iterations is always fun and most of the time they really do know each other much better/more accurately than they do with donnie or mikey

taking rottmnt as an example just bc its the one i main and understand best, despite the age order swapping from typical tmnt , the dynamic of an older raph trying to coach leo on responsibility is like!!! raph Knows what it is to be a leader and he Knows that leo is capable of it and he Knows leo is avoiding it by being reckless and he knows this isnt how leo usually is ! and with leo . he’s good at reading people in general ! but he respects raph on a deep level despite being a little shithead because thats his big brother !!! and he soon learns and Truly understands the weight of what raph’s dealt with bc of the events of the movie

and then just like . idk . the eldest half of the turtles being the closest in that kinda deep understsnding of their roles and the struggles that come with them . makes me emotional

id love to see more works about raph and leo just being brothers in the same vein as mikey and donnie just being a chaotic duo,,, like leo knowing when raph needs a minute to calm down or raph understanding how leo wants a plan to go without having to elaborate , etc

and my favorite underrated dynamics are the ones with splinter and the humans👍bc oh man oh man !!!!

again rottmnt specifically but splinter’s dynamic with april is Such a gem to me like she is literally the favorite child and she isnt even his THATS HIS FAVORITE KID!!!! in 2012 also i like april and splinter’s mentoring kinda relationship!!!!! its fire!!!!!

and God . casey and splinter in rise . Christ dawg . oh my god!!!!! splinter sees himself in casey so so much . Splinter Broke Casey Out Of The Hold The Foot Had On Her !!!! they make me crazy emotional and rarely any fanwork explores it !!!! i want more of that!!!!!! he saved her !!!!!! and she doesnt know what to even do about that!!!!!!! casey is also his favorite child rise splinter has a thing about all his favorite kids being none of the turtles and i stand by that /j

rise splinter sees his own younger self’s fiery passion and intense Want to be something great in april, and he sees his younger self’s struggle with being a part of a locked destiny that he was never given a choice to decide if he wanted it or not in casey </3

more rise casey jones and splinter fanworks🙏🙏PLEASE!!!!🙏🙏🙏casey learning how to be a person on her own🙏🙏🙏splinter supporting her like a father bc her own guardian figures never saw her potential🙏🙏🙏

other honorable mentions:

leo and usagi . self explanatory . love them . platonic or romantic idc i love seeing any content about them i love the different dynamics for them in any iteration

casey and april 2003 mt beloveds they make me so uehehehe theyre Silly theyre so silly and i wish we couldve explored rottmnt casey and april’s dynamic more

idw jennika and her relationship with the hamato clan !!! shes so similar to rise casey in that sense but then also just how shes such an older sister to them already is like . augh . i love asshole older sisters . i love her doubting her place in the family . i love her imagining what itd be like if she was with them during their worst moments and how she wouldve taken the hits for them . Idw jennika you will always be famous

im a huge yapper sorry but yeah thats my answer me thinks

[luckycharms1701]

got a response to my last post and fuck if i didn't pull my computer out at one in the morning so i could do this particular topic justice

my "time to talk about family dynamics in tmnt" button was pushed real hard, and i don't get enough opportunities to talk about this

So let's talk about Leo's position in the family in the Bayverse movies. That's right folks, we're pulling out capital letters for the leader in blue, because this is a topic I am super serious about. Full college paper levels of serious. Gonna need to know how you want your sources cited.

This is a fascinating take tbh, and I would love to hear more about how you came to this conclusion. Allow me to show you why my position is different.

First:

I think this image says a lot. Leo's a daddy's boy long before anything like parentification could possibly come into play. Also it's really cute, look at him loving his dad!!

Second, let's talk parentification. Boiled down to its basics, parentification is when a child, usually the eldest, acts like a secondary or replacement parent. This is the part that really gets me, because I just don't see any evidence of it in the movies at all.

We do get to see some scenes from when they are kids, and no where is it suggested that Leo is anything other than another one of the boys.

Sure, Mikey hides behind him when play-fighting with Raph after the buck-buck scene, but that's just younger sibling behavior. No where is it implied that this happens because anyone expects it of Leo. That, I think, might be the closest to "parentification" that occurs in the movies.

The thing is, I don't think Leo has been the leader very long at the beginning of the 2014 movie. Honestly I wouldn't be surprised if it's a move Splinter made just before or even as the movie starts. Leo's and Raph's argument really solidifies that for me:

Raph: And who put you in charge?

Leo: You know who did.

This smacks, on Leo's part, of someone borrowing another's authority to shore up their own. That tells me that Leo at least does not feel that he has this authority on his own merit, that he's new to leadership. Raph senses this like a shark in bloody water, and he pushes because there's vulnerability there. (more on this later *rubs hands together in glee*)

I think that there is evidence in the 2016 movie that Leo is relatively new to a position of authority as well. His struggle to maintain the delicate balance of his brother's personalities and the fact that he allows his own personality to get in the way of being a good leader are prime examples.

These are pitfalls that a parentified person would already have experienced and would be able to avoid, and so they wouldn't have happened if Leo was parentified.

Third, let's talk about Leo and Raph.

So, my position here is that Leo and Raph DO have a normal sibling relationship, at least as normal as it can get when you are turtle mutants living in the sewers with only each other for company.

Anecdotal, I know, but I have a bit of experience with a similar dynamic to the one you assigned to them. I am the oldest of three, and my sister (middle) and I did NOT get along as kids. It got to the point where I thought as teens that once I left the house we would never talk to each other ever again.

Perceived favoritism was definitely an issue in my and my sister's relationship. Is it an issue with Leo and Raph? I honestly don't think we get enough time with Splinter in the movies to determine that concretely. It's definitely possible, but I believe something different is, either concurrently with or instead of favoritism, at play here.

I know it's easy to forget because they look Like That, but the turtles are teenagers. They are immature and don't always know how to express themselves. And Raph in particular struggles because he feels so strongly. It can be hard to control it when your emotions are strong like that, don't ask me how I know.

However, he gives himself away at the end of the 2014 movie. "Every time... I pushed you beyond your limits, it was because I believe in you! I believe in each one of you!"

Remember when I said that Raph sensed Leo's vulnerability and pushed on it? We've come back baby! I am firmly in the camp of 'both Raph and Leo are good leaders in their own way', and I think this is part of what makes Raph a good leader.

Sometimes Raph is actually annoyed at Leo for whatever reason, being told what to do the most common I think. But!! Remember, Raph also believes in his brothers, Leo included. So he puts Leo on the spot in a mostly controlled environment to help him learn how to be a leader. There's a lot more I could say here, but that's a Raph post, and this is about Leo.

So is it favoritism, Raph's need for independence, or Raph pushing Leo that causes tension in their relationship? I think it's a bit of all of that and more.

There is a fourth section to this post, about Splinter, but it is now almost four in the morning, I have to get up in like two hours, and I already fell asleep once while writing this. But know that in this iteration at least, Splinter is a decent single father of four boys, he did not parentify Leo, and any favoritism is unintentional.

Anyway, in my house we spend a lot of time talking about how much Leo loves his dad.

[imagionationstation]

So I was watching Knights of the Zodiacs and idk it made me think what if the turtles were like…reincarnation of gods? Idk

Anyways, this is what I’d personally assign -

Leo - Athena. Raph - Ares. Donnie - Apollo (god of knowledge and all that) or Hephaestus. Mikey - Hermes.

I also spun a wheel to let it decide. So much funnier and more interesting.

Leo - Hermes. Raph - Aphrodite (did you know Aphrodite was also a war goddess?). Donnie - Artemis. Mikey - Demeter.

I think it’s fun, you don’t have to respond lol

I play with Greek/Roman history sometimes so I know enough to recognize the gods and their tempers/hobbies/interests.

If they were recarnations, how much of them would remain? Or would they still have the turtles personalities? Would they still have their powers or some variations of them…?

Never seen Knights of the Zodiacs so I have zero frame of reference for the thoughts that you are having. It’s making my train of thought stop at multiple stations despite its desire to chug on.

(Edited due to minor confusion)

Lemme see…

Athena: Goddess of the wisdom and warefar, a leader and very into tatics and strategies, strong views and she was very big about honor, truth, and justice.

Sounds like Leo. Checks out.

Ares: The god of war, very into all kinds of violence. It gives him a bad reputation bc, yk, obvious reasons. He can also be considered the god of courage depending on where you look. He’s not necessarily on anyone’s side as long as violence happens.

He and Athena are often depicted as frenemies, with them fighting often, probably because he likes war for the sake of war and she fights in wars with purpose.

Interesting take on Raph. I can work with that.

Apollo: The god of quite a few things. I remember prophecy and archery in that lineup. Music and poetry was in there too. He also emulates Athena’s beliefs in justice and peace. If I’m recalling correctly, he could also be passionate/emotional and tended to have some jealous streaks.

Yeppers. Sounds like the boy but with a musical flare <3

Hermes: The god of speed and travel/luck. He’s a tricky, mischievous boy with the best intentions. He’s bright-eyed, bushy-tailed, and only lives to do as he pleases. He’s very fast, very annoying (to the other gods), and very sneaky. I think he’s also a protector of travelers/wandering souls. He’s genuinely a good, silly guy.

Mikey in a nutshell right there. I think we’re on the same page here.

Other than the fact that I, again, have not seen Knights of the Zodiacs. Sincere apologies.

There’s a whole lot that goes into them being gods, tho.

Do they keep all their powers? ‘Cause mythological gods tend to be overpowerful creatures and overpowerful creatures are no fun.

I want to beat the turtles up. Make them suffer and bond. How do I do that when they have few weaknesses??

What if- they have powers, but they have mutant forms now. So they have the weakness that come with mortal bodies. It’s harder to unlock and use their powers. And it’s really annoying because they have to shift between struggling to use the powers and randomly unlocking them mid-battle, only to find them locked later.

#The Struggle Is Real

I wish I could draw. I have some images on the brain that I’d love to share but sadly my talents do not extend so far.

[kikithedreamerwriter]

please let me know if you want to be a part of my taglist!

🗣️: @sharpwindow @pheradream-15 @m1dnyt3-w0lf

Imagines #3: Depressed S/O x Bayverse Turtles

Prompt: Ever since the resurfacing of a tragic childhood incident, you have been in and out of episodes of depression where you simply stay still (sitting, standing, lying down) and stare blankly into space for hours. Your turtle tries to console you in the best way he can.

Leonardo

I think that among his brothers, Leo is the least informed about mental illnesses and its implications. He’s always held the belief that “it’s all in the mind.” When your episodes began, he slowly realizes that just because you can’t see something, it doesn’t mean it isn’t there.

You and him get into a whole fight about how Leo doesn’t seem to be taking your depression seriously.

After a serious discussion with Splinter and a week later, he comes to your apartment to make it up to you with alot of cuddles and words of affirmation.

He will in enroll in a online psychology and mental health awareness course at a community college to educate himself just for you.

When your having your episodes, he will brew some tea, tuck you into his embrace, and whisper sweetly into your ear.

Leo knows that being sedentary too long isn’t good for your physical health, so he’ll carry you into his arms, set you on the floor of his bedroom, turn on the gramophone he got from dumpster diving, and dance with you to the beat of soothing, vintage music.

While Leo is someone who is true to his belief and code, he is willing to change himself for you because well… he just loves you that much 💙

Raphael

Unlike his older brother in blue, Raphael is much more aware about mental health issues. We all know that despite this brute’s impenetrable exterior, he has the softest spot for the people he loves. ❤️

When you’re having your episodes, he’ll take into his arms and make you come with him. His rationale: it’s never good to dwell on your bad thoughts too much and alone. He knows you need a distraction.

So either he’ll: (1) let you take out all that grief and anger on his punching bag (he’ll definitely be more scared of you after seeing you absolutely brutalize his it) (2) take you around his favorite secret spots around the city (which he happened to find during the times he would storm out of the Lair).

Honestly, he hates when you’re having one of your episodes. Make no mistake, he loves being with you during your episodes, but Raph’s love language is acts of service. So he hates it that he himself can’t get inside your head to help you solve the root of your trauma.

But after a while, he learns to accept the ways that he can do to help you. He will do anything to protect your well-being.

Donatello

While Raph understands the more emotional aspect of mental illnesses, as usual, Donnie knows the science behind it.

As soon as he notices the symptoms of your depression, he booked you a visit to a good therapist. Yes, he’s find a way to make your insurance cover your visits.

In addition to all the neat features he put into your custom-made watch, he also installed a button that notifies him when you feel like your slipping into one of your episodes.

Unlike his brothers, I think that Donnie is the kind to leave you by yourself during your episodes. He’ll still check on you every once in a while! He’ll do so every 20 minutes, with an alarm set on his own watch. Donnie knows how important it is to let you process your own emotions. When he thinks you’ve done that enough, that’s when he’ll hold you close and try to engage you in conversation about the feelings you experienced.

He assures you that no matter how disturbing your thoughts may end up becoming, he will always be receptive for you. He reminds you that this illness is not who you are. He tells you constantly that you are brave and beautiful no matter what you think of yourself 💜

Michelangelo

Mikey is the most empathetic among his brothers. Despite his constantly bright disposition, he has his own rainy days too. Personally, I think that emotionally, he copes the best among his brothers. Mikey has a high EQ in my humble opinion.

He doesn’t care what he should be doing. He will stay beside you the entire time during one of your episodes. His babycakes is suffering! He can’t not be there!

Expect a lot of your favorite foods. After an episode, both of you will be FEASTING. You’ll also be playing video games and reading comic books together. Sometimes, he’ll even take you with him to the city for some fresh air.

Like Leo he’ll want to take a course on psychology and mental health to educate himself even more. He wants to be the best version of himself for you so that he can take care of you. He’ll also constantly be asking Donnie questions. Donnie feels that these conversations with Mikey are gonna be the most intellectual ones he has with him. 😂

When he’s away on a mission, all he can think about is you. He won’t even be his usual cheery self. In fact, he’ll be more like Leo. Serious and worrisome. He’ll feel so bad for his angelcakes. 🥺🧡

Please like and reblog if you enjoyed this! Yes you! 👀💖

[leo-kinnie]

King if you started ranting about (any) Sandro for hours even days I'd be sitting listening to you with starry eyes- please rant please rant please rant

Ooh, how about CF!Sandro's fav place?? And I wanna know how sandros role was in episodes like portal chopped (? Was that the name) and Mind Meld 👀

-☆staranon☆

So many days biting my tongue on ranting about Ash.... oooh...

Sand's got multiple fav places!! All for different moods, obviously. But the place that holds a special spot in his heart is the very top of Central Park Tower!! its the place he goes to sit down and daydream/let himself experience negative emotions in solitude, since Sand doesn't want his little brothers ever seeing him unhappy.

Bonus piece of knowledge: Raph is the only person who knows abt this specific spot and its importance to him + is the one to go seek out Sand if he's gone for too long.

long ass text under cut

OHHHH okay so in the episode Portal Jacked (U MEANT THIS ONE I THINK???), Sandro Also got split up from Leo like the rest of the brothers. In my mind Leo makes a LOT MORE wailing comments about how "if Sandro was here he'd SOOO laugh at that" "I'm missing my hype man, so, Hueso you need to step it up!" "Everything reminds me of him..." and he's looking at the ugliest green splash of paint

Whereas Sandro was freakin' out internally because um. um. um. I DONT KNOW WHAT TO DO WITHOUT LEO RIGHT BESIDE ME. Dude is basing his entire personality off of that brother he doesn't know how to act without him.

Honestly it goes pretty good overall bc Sandro gets to let a bit of his personality shine through during those moments relaxing with his other brothers. But then it goes back to normal when they're reunited and Sandro says, and I quote, "That shit sucked."

THE MIND MELD EPISODE IS MY FAV ONE I'VE ALREADY SPOKE INTENSIVELY ABT THIS ON TWITTER (when i HAD ONE) SO I REMEMBER IT ALL. Sandro DOESN'T get Donnie-fied like the other brothers because his dumbass walked off before the machine was turned on. Like, Donnie is at the control panel, SEES Sandro there, and then looks down and when he looks back up he sees Sandro off to the side chewing on one of his wrenches while the others are smart now.

So Sandro helps Donnie when he wants to un-smart the brothers, altho he's hilariously out of his depth because Leo is not LEO anymore. So he'll have moments going Ummm wanna go read comic books? And Leo will not only turn him down but say some fancy jargon about being above comic books and Sandro is just

because what the fuck was 60% of those words.

Would also like to state that Sandro is the one who half-heartedly suggested the beachball idea and was extremely surprised when Donnie praised him up for the idea and actually USED it. He felt like this

Donnie had a cute little speech at the end when all was well like Maybe we can work together. Maybe we do have common ground, my fortunately less-intelligent brother. And because of that, I would like to reinvite you to my lab.

Sandro went starry eyed and said really ?! I'm not banned anymore?? And then proceeded to get banned again after biting Shelldon's rotor.

[hyperfixationiris]

(In advance I apologize for any grammatical or syntax error that I may have, English is not my first language).

The Separated AU by @cupcakeslushie has been my complete adoration and obsession in recent days, so (with the author's permission) I created this playlist for Separated!Donnie!

I have chosen the songs mostly for their lyrics, so the musical genres may be all over the place, hehe.

The title comes from the mini comic "Thirds", also part of the Separated AU and creation of Cupcakeslushie, because damn, that interaction between Donnie and Splinter hit me hard.

That there are thirty-three songs (Three Three) in the playlist is... totally a coincidence! But it is one of which I feel very proud!

You can listen it on YouTube here or on Spotify here (I recommend the YouTube version more, since on Spotify I couldn't find all the songs or not in the versions I wanted).

Below is a brief explanation of why I chose some of the songs, (you can ignore this if you like) But enjoy the music and go see the Separated AU, I recommend it with all my heart!

(This part is very based on my interpretation of Sep!Donnie, so I may be wrong about some things.)

— "Saint Bernard" and "Cradles" are the first songs for being the ones I most associated with Donnie. The first for talking about being a failure and that there is something intrinsically "wrong" with you. The second I associated with his way of seeing the world and the fact that he does not perceive what has been done to him as abuse.

— The instrumental melodies I chose I feel they are a good reflection of his mental state, especially in one of his episodes.

— "Papercut" was a song I heard and it was immediately like: "Oh, yes, this is Donnie talking about Three and the hallucinations he has of his brothers".

— "Immer Sie" is one of the few songs I chose with a specific moment in mind, in this case: Donnie attacking his family because he felt they were leaving him behind and abandoning him. The song speaks of a desperate and almost aggressive love, in addition to having in its lyrics a fairly broken syntax. That is why I think it can reflect Donnie's altered mental and emotional state in that specific moment.

— There is a song that clashes a lot with the others and is "Lovefool (Remix)". However I think it represents the affectionate behaviors, although sometimes too intense, of Donnie, as well as his need to be loved.

— I think "Pale Machine" is a song that would play once Donnie was rescued by his family and once he was living with them. Although he is very happy and basically the situation is a dream come true, that does not mean that all his problems are fixed.

— Two other songs for specific moments are "What I've Done" and "Cop Graveyard". I am referring to the moment Mikey finds out about the collars his brother made for Big Mama, and when Donnie realizes that he basically helped Shredder poison Leo's mind.

— "Rolling Girl" is the first of the comfort songs, being a reflection of the way Donnie sees himself and how his family is doing everything possible to help him out of that vicious circle.

— I see "Demons" as a song dedicated to the relationship between Donnie and Vee (which I love). In turn, "Devil Town" would be Donnie's relationship with Leo, Raph and Mikey.

— "New Soul" is basically Donnie on the road to recovery, with its ups and downs.

— Finally, "Somewhere I Belong" is not exactly a happy or entirely positive song, but whose central theme is something that Donnie has been working on and has wished all his life: a place to belong to.

And with this ends my TED Talk, thanks for coming.

[nights-flying-fox]

Deep (Purple) Thoughts (and Realizations)

◇ Click here to read on AO3 | Chapter 1 | Chapter 2 | Chapter 3 | Chapter 4 ◇

Chapter 5: Talk It Out Donnie shares some information.

Word Count: 1743 | CW: manipulation (kind of??), self blaming (not donnie tho), mentions of genocide, survivor's guilt

(if you think i should add something plz tell me)

 

 Controlling the Technodrome was an exciting idea at first. Donatello Hamato, the first person to fly a spaceship! His dreams from childhood were about to become real. Then he had discovered how disgusting it was. Icky, slimy, alive. The texture on its own made Donnie nauseous. But he could do it, for he was a genius, and this must not stop him. Not when he had said he could. Not when his family’s lives were on the stake. So, he had forced himself. With Mikey’s support the situation being a bit bearable. With every step it got worse. He had to use himself, not just his hands.

 So, he let himself fall into the spaceship.

 At first it felt as if he was being captured. Technodrome’s parts holding him, becoming a part of him. Then he had gasped. Connected. He had control. He knew everything! He could use it, protect his family and be powerful! He had knowledge!

 With ease he controlled the Technodrome. He let it move according to the plan, protected Mikey. He knew why he was there and what he could do. But he wanted more. He could do more. He wasn’t just Donnie, he was also a spaceship. He was a genius with power and knowledge.

 Donnie looked at the ground. “Except knowledge isn’t always good, it turns out.” He spoke. “Not when you can see what the Krang did.”

 The silence felt too long, too heavy. He knew his family were giving him time, he appreciated it. And he wanted to tell them what happened. It was just hard. He felt his hand being squeezed. Raph smiled at him, supportive. Donnie took a deep breath.

 “During my time connected with Technodrome I felt invincible. I didn’t care about what I learned. I... I even could understand why Krang wanted power.” He didn’t want to admit it. But he didn’t want to lie. It was what had happened, what scared him. “Afterwards it changed. Everything I knew, it was terrible. The planets they had taken over, the wars... I am glad we stopped them.” He didn’t want to get into the details. Not wanting to talk about how Technodrome was a corrupted thing, alive.

 “Donnie...” He heard April whisper.

 Before she could continue, he talked again. “The spaceship didn’t whisper or talk like in the horror movies. But it seemed to try control me too.”

 “Control you?” Raph asked.

 “It wanted me to join them.” Donnie replied. “At least that’s my guess.”

 Another silence. He looked at them. Raph looking at him with understanding eyes, Mikey seemed to be worried, and Leo looked at him with wide eyes. Horror, guilt.

 “Don’t blame yourself dumdum.” Donnie warned. He knew his twin well enough to stop him spiraling into self-hate. And not because they’d comfort each other when they had these moments of heavy guilt or self-hate at times.

 “I shouldn’t have asked you to do something like that without knowing what exactly was it.” Leo said. “I am sorry Donnie.”

 “Don’t.” He cut him off. “I wanted to do that anyway. It was an efficient information against the Krang as well.”

 “You learned about their genocides.” Leo pointed out.

 “Exactly. And that’s why what you did was insane, reminder.” Donnie glared at him.

 Leo huffed. “Can’t even apologize and have a heartfelt moment without being accused with your past decisions.”

 Donnie grabbed the pillow he was sitting on and threw it on his face. Leo yelped, “Hey!”

 “You deserved it, idiot.”

 “Rude.”

 Suddenly Donnie was pulled into a side hug. He didn’t need to look to know it was Rapha. The big guy had that emotional look on his face. “Raph gets it, and he is very proud of you sharing this.”

 “Thanks Raph.” Donnie said, relaxing in the hug a bit. He was still feeling the nervousness from remembering everything, but he didn’t mind Raph’s hug. It was comforting. Then he decided to ask something he was wondering for a long time, hopping it wouldn’t hurt Raph now. “When you were... you know... was it like that too?”

 Raph took a deep breath. “Kind of?” He replied. Then voice a little quieter, and yet bravely he explained. “I didn’t see what you did see, at least not during my time like that, but my mind was empty and all I felt was needing power and accomplishing my mission.”

 That was enough for what he wanted to know. Donnie decided to not ask anything else. “I’m sorry big guy.”

 “It is fine.” He said. “Genuinely, I appreciate everything guys. You helped me a lot in the past weeks.”

 It was true. Raph, unlike Donnie, had accepted help. Had admitted remembering parts of his time under Krang’s control, and that he had nightmares often. Raph didn’t want to tell them everything about that time, but he had shared enough for them to understand. Enough to get help. Maybe Donnie should’ve done the same.

 “Is there anything we can do to help you Donnie?” Raph asked.

 He still could, actually. “I...” He began, whispering. “...I don’t have nightmares but... there are times I fear I will feel like that again.” He admitted. “I can’t sleep.”

 “So, this is why you spent hours awake during our turtle pile.” Raph realized.

 Donnie nodded. Okay, end of the emotional stuff, right? He didn’t want to go into more details anyway. “That’s all from me. So, uh, we can move on?”

 “You are terrible at this.” April shook her head with a smile. “But we can work on it. Right, Mikey?”

 Mikey was uncharacteristically quiet. When all eyes were on him, he blinked confusedly, “Sorry, I was thinking something.”

 “Something?” April raised a brow.

 “Mhmm.” He was still fidgeting.

 Nobody was going to let it slip, Donnie knew that. He was proven right when Raph smiled softly at Mikey, “Want to join to hug?”

 Mikey looked at him with big eyes before nodding. As Mikey wrapped his arms around them, Donnie noticed his arms trembling slightly. “Is it your arms?” He questioned.

 “No.” He replied.

 “What’s wrong, big guy?” Raph asked softly.

 Quiet. Then, “I should’ve done more.”

 “What?”

 Mikey snuggled more towards Raph, “I should’ve done more to help. Then none of you would’ve ended up this hurt.”

 Donnie looked at Raph, confused. Raph looked back him with surprise. Before any of them could say anything though, Leo talked. “Mikey, what the shell are you talkin’ about? You literally broke some science law stuff to save my tail that day.”

 Mikey turned slightly to look at Leo, “But I didn’t do anything like you did.” He said. “Raph got everyone safe, Donnie controlled a spaceship, April, Dad and Junior got Krang Sister, and you stopped Krang Prime!”

 Everyone looked at him confused. “Mikey, you realize that without you I could have ended up be dead, right? Heck, we all would be, considering it is your future version who sent Junior back in time.” Leo said. “You even threw a freaking building at Krang.”

 “...It still doesn’t feel enough.” Mikey whispered. “I am sorry, it doesn’t make any sense.”

 “Actually, it does.” April interrupted. She turned to Shelldon who was watching them all silently the whole time. “I am not sure, but wasn’t there something about feeling bad for not going through something others did?”

 Shelldon was quick to answer, Donnie feeling proud at how fast Shelldon could gain information on situations like this. “The closest match seems to be survivor’s guilt.” He answered. “Survivor guilt or survivor's guilt is a mental condition that occurs when a person believes they have done something wrong by surviving a traumatic or tragic event when others did not.” He explained, reading an article he found. “Survivor’s guilt is a response to an event in which someone else experienced loss, but you did not. While the name implies this to be a response to the loss of life, it could also be the loss of property, health, identity or a number of other things that are important to people, is another definition from a different a source.” He added.

 “Close enough, thanks Shelldon.” April turned back to Mikey. “Maybe it’s something like this?”

 “Oh. How didn’t I think of this?” Mikey questioned with surprise.

 “It’s okay, even Doctor Feelings can forget details.” Raph tried to reassure him.

 “That’s why he should take a break.” Leo said. Then he proceeded to join the hug. “And you too. You did amazing back there, Mike. Don’t let your thoughts deceive you.”

 “As an exception, I have to agree with him.” Donnie nodded. “You were very brave back there, Angelo.”

 “Thanks guys.” Mikey smiled with teary eyes. “You are the best.”

 April joined the hug as well, “So are you.”

 Donnie was sure things were already better. Now only if his dumdum twin opened up too—

 “Hey, Raph, if you don’t mind me asking,” Leo suddenly broke the comforting silence. “When you answered Donnie’s question… Is there something you haven’t told us?”

 Donnie turned to Raph. If Leo suspected of something, it was worth to follow his lead. He was a good observer. Raph avoided to look at them, so it should be true that Leo was right.

 “It isn’t that important.” He shrugged it off.

 “Are you sure? You seem to be stressed about it.” April said, “You know you can tell it to us if it bothers you.”

 Raph sighed, “I don’t wanna burden you guys with that. Really, I can handle it.”

 “Okay… but don’t burden yourself.” Mikey reminded. “If it we can, we will help. Just tell us.”

 “Thanks for the support, Mikey.” Raph smiled genuinely.

 Mikey hugged him tighter as a response.

 Donnie watched as Raph looked at the ceiling. He was considering. Donnie knew Raph would see nightmares that wouldn’t let him sleep. Raph was no night owl, it troubled him a lot. Even if he had tried to hide it, it would have been obvious. But Donnie had never thought there being another possible reason keeping him awake.

 He held his hand and squeezed. A silent support, a reminder that they were here. Something the siblings would do when one of them was having a bad day and not being able to talk. Or when the world would become too loud for words. Or just when they wanted to remind each other they were by each other’s side without telling it.

 After a moment, Raph squeezed back.

[lizzylucky]

Thoughts and Observations From the Movie, Part 3/4

Hello! It part 3 of mine silly thoughts and observations from the Rise movie :3

I stopped to look at and highlight this scene mostly because mmm good angst. Leo is an absolutely ferocious fighter, no sarcasm or exaggeration here, but he’s extremely sentimental and kind and protective of his family in turn. As someone who absolutely breaks down when a compromise cannot be found to reconcile two conflicting morals, Leo’s hesitation to fight a threat to his family that happens to be part of his family is downright painful. 

Can you imagine the deflated feeling of dying hope that comes with seeing a glimpse of a vulnerable Raph in a body no longer under its owner’s control? To think you saw your brother shine through only to realize you were wrong? It looked like Raph’s pain because the mind in control exhausted the body. Ouch.

Further content below the cut!

FURTHERMORE! This parallel is everything to me. Leo makes a very similar expression both times, and the shot of his face shows his head angled in the exact same way, both times. Both times, Leo’s life is in danger, and both times, Raph is there. 

The difference is that the first time, Raph is protecting Leo’s life, and the second time, Raph is the danger to Leo’s life. Note also that Raph is physically placed above Leo when he’s trying to save his brother, and Leo is placed physically over Raph when he’s trying to save his brother. Visually speaking, these cues are genius, and I absolutely live for that. It’s what makes both scenes so powerful without most people even realizing there was a connection or a visual representation of the emotion involved.

More Donnie love/angst! This scene also strikes me as being incredibly boosting of Donnie’s strength. Someone else half pointed something here out, and I want to amplify it: Donnie likely has the least prowess with his ninpo/mystic powers out of the four brothers, which gives a little more meaning to this part.

Recall that Donnie was most reluctant to embrace magic, first off. One, because he has some amazing technological mastery that allows him to accomplish many of the same feats magic can, so he finds value in being able to do that without the help of some outside source that doesn’t have any connection to his ability. And, if you remember the episode where he and April visit a witch town, you know that it goes deeper than this in that he’s scared magic of any kind is in itself something that can render him obsolete; because it’s his ability with tech that defines who he is on the team, at least in his eyes.

All that to say it took him the longest to embrace and learn to use his ninpo, really. And once he did get to that point, it was made clear that he used it to enhance his mind’s ambitions and create mystic tech. He’s good at what he does, but each brother has a distinct style or purpose to their ninpo, and while Donnie’s is helpful and overall cool in its own right, by nature it’s not a protective magic like, say, Raph’s. 

So, Donnie has the least experience with his ninpo, and shield making was very definitely not his forte, which means that in this scene it can be assumed the shield he makes to protect him and Mikey is already not very strong, and as it was the Krang punched through it like it was nothing. He and Mikey are both temporarily knocked out as they’re hit out of the sky, both going completely limp in their freefall. 

(As an aside, GOSH I love Donnie being protective over Mikey, just an A+ trope. I might make a separate compilation of screenshots showcasing all the times Donnie and Mikey hung onto and protected each other, and it’s a surprisingly high count)

Immediately after Donnie and Mikey are yote out the sky, Leo directs Raph to go save them, and I wanted to show the screenshot he does this in because I missed the tears in Leo’s eyes the first few times I watched the movie. 

Leo is utterly terrified for his brothers. Pressure is high, he only just got the four of them out of their last immediate danger, and these boys just threw pretty much everything they’ve got at a literal world-ending threat with no effect. Then, without so much as 10 seconds to breathe when coming to this conclusion, both his little brothers are knocked out of the sky, and he had to send his only big brother away to make sure they don’t straight up die, leaving Leo completely alone with an enemy he can’t seem to beat. I’d be crying too, man.

Additionally, I’ve always been curious as to how exactly Raph grabbed both Mikey and Donnie just before engulfing the three of them in a Mega-Ninpo-Raph-Projection. Now I know, and, yeah, it does look like a giant hug. I’m soft for how caringly he wraps them in his arms, almost like he’s cradling them. No doubt he’s got the same fears as Leo running through his head at a million miles a minute, and as an eldest sibling myself I’m impressed with how well he kept his composure.

Part 1 Part 2 Part 3 Part 4

[pumpkinpie59]

random hot takes i have cause i’m bored and emotionally dead:

-i literally cannot stand any leo ship other than leolotus, especially if it involves 87 leonardo. i’m sorry but it has made me physically nauseous before. shipping as a joke or a small crush on someone else is fine but pls don’t bother me about other leo ships it’s too much for me. ((i won’t hate u if u ship other ships dw <3 i just ask not to be bothered by it)

-i’ve already ranted about this so i won’t go into depth but i hate the 2012 season 4 finale (moreso requiem than owari but owari still bothers me). i think in general? i think 2012’s writing is mindbogglingly bad after they leave the farmhouse in season 3, but that doesn’t mean i don’t still enjoy a lot of it. just don’t expect me to drop the issues that bother me. season 1 is my baby tho and i’ll defend it to my dying day.

-2012 apritello is good. they just had to go through character development. my only issue with it is that their entire situation was pushed to the background so ppl only notice their development if they’re paying attention to april and donnie the whole time (like i do).

-1987 treats its girl characters better than the other shows which is shocking.

-capril sucks. i have literally never liked it or was just neutral to it. i got close to liking them in idw but then casey became a jerk.

-that said i don’t like shipping casey or april with the turtles with the one exception of 2012 apritello.

-i think 03 casey and splinter are annoying.

-2012 casey is best casey :p

-2012 michelangelo pisses me off. he has some good lines here and there and sometimes has fun dynamics with other characters but in general he’s just an ableist representation of adhd and he literally never faces consequences for his mistakes and instead everything works out for him so he never grows. like literally he stays the same throughout the show. also i dislike his actor sorry :p and his entire dynamic with renet just ruins renet as a character and it bothers me.

-i forget rise exists most of the time tbh. it’s good but like. i forget. also rise leo and donnie’s writing bothers me anyway-

-1987 content needs to sTOP mischaracterizing raphael PLS PLS PLS. “michelangelo is the jokester and raphael groans at his jokes” NO!!! raphael is the jokester so he gets upset when his brothers make stupid jokes bc that’s HIS thing !!!!!! and he’s not angry in the same way other raphaels are except in red sky when he was angry that they became villains in society’s eyes!!! but otherwise he’s emotional and whiny but not angry!!!

-leonardo is best when he’s a dork. he wants to do the right thing but will be a frickin idiot about it but - oh wait buddy don’t do that no wait put the sword down hold on-

-the turtles should never have blue eyes but especially not michelangelo.

-ramona is great but it’s okay for them to just be friends too. either way they slay <3

-lotus blossom and jhanna are the most under appreciated characters in tmnt give them some respECT-

-i think howie should come back. not bc he’s a good character i just wanna see what would happen.

-i hate koya. so much.

-mondo/mikey makes me rlly uncomfortable. it feels exactly like leo/venus since they mutated in the same place so mondo feels like a long lost sibling …

-this is literally just my take and i don’t expect others to agree but like. the 1987 team is the only version of tmnt where i feel like every turtle is equally likable and works as a unit best. like i like 03, but i don’t especially get attached to mikey? he’s good but compared to the other 03 turtles he’s just not my fav. same with 2012 but more extreme since it has rlly good raph, donnie, and leo,, but like i said i really dislike mikey. and then i’m not rlly attached to the rise turtles except mikey. the 87 team tho is all great.

-while i rlly love rise casey, i think waiting to reveal she was casey was a bad idea. i think she should’ve been introduced as casey or should’ve been a different character,,,

-i like red sky but the last episode was a disappointment,, also where are all my fav side characters 😭

-the turtles should never be tall they will always be lil guys to me. they should be under 5 ft plsssss

-not a hot take just a hc that was recently revealed to me and i think it’s genius: the 5th turtle kirby (like from 90s concept art) should be the donatello clone from 1987. like hello??? that’s genius pls watch the clone donatello episode

-if i see yall reducing mm april to just be shipped with leo i will end yall.

-lotus blossom is an interesting character even without her connection to leonardo and i wish everyone would notice !!!!

-not a hot take but rob paulsen should be in every tmnt thing we should make it tradition.

[the-tmnt-ficfinder]

Ficfinder finds: The Lemonade Leak

Chapter 15: The Bearer

Chapter 15 Summary: No summary

The Bearer: Appraisal and Ratings

(Don't know what fanfic "Appraisal and Ratings" means? Check out my explanation on my Main Masterpost! Looking for a different fanfic to read? Head on over to my Fanfic List Masterpost!)

Disclaimer: This fanfic is only available to those who have an Ao3 profile. This fanfic is written by @turtleinsoup, so go show them some love and support!!

The fanfic ratings are not based on quality, favoritism, or how good I think it is, but rather, how intense a subject may be. Like a movie review, or the tags on Ao3, letting the readers know what to expect.

Plot: 💛💛💛🖤🖤

"Plot is three out of five!! This chapter is basically the calm before the storm. The preparation time before everything goes down."

Suspense/Mystery: 💛💛💛🖤🖤

"Suspense/Mystery is three out of five!! The main part of the suspense in this chapter, is waiting to see what's going to happen in the next chapter."

Angst/Hurt: 💛💛🖤🖤🖤

"Angst/Hurt is two out of five!! This chapter has a smaller amount of angst in it. All the angsts that does happen, is verbal and emotional. All the physical angst, is saved for the next chapter."

Fluff/Comfort: 🖤🖤🖤🖤🖤

"Fluff/Comfort is zero out of five! No comfort to be found in this chapter!!"

Emotions Conveyed: 💛💛💛🖤🖤

"Emotions Conveyed is three out of five!! This chapter felt like the calm before the storm. But not a good kind of calm, but rather the kind of calm that's cold and stagnant."

Drama/Tension Level: 💛💛💛💛🖤

"Drama/Tension Level is four out of five!! Oh man, despite this chapter being the calm before the storm, the conversations between Leo and Draxum are completely FILLED with drama and tension!"

Triggers: 💛🖤🖤🖤🖤

"Triggers for this chapter are one out of five. Minimal triggers for this chapter. Mostly talk of a difficult childhood, and of course a planned attack on a sibling."

Legibility (Reading): 💛💛💛💛💛

"Legibility (Reading) is five out of five!! I enjoyed seeing how Leo and Draxum communicated. Its a different writing style than say Leo and Raph, or Leo and Mikey. It was interesting and fun to pick up!"

Legibility (Audio): 💛💛💛💛💛

"Legibility (Audio) is five out of five! The writing style just translates so well into audio book form!!"

Length: 💛💛🖤🖤🖤

"Length is three out of five!! Chapter 15 of The Lemonade Leak takes about 13-14 minutes to listen to!!"

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Next Chapter ->

<- Previous

The Lemonade Leak: Story Ratings and Chapter List

Personal thoughts on chapter below cut (Contains Spoilers)

Leo rested his arm on the bone of his knee. “Nah,” he said. “Honestly, I’d fill a room with anesthetic gas and teleport it in there. But Donnie can hold his breath for over three hours. And that’s too long.” If you want any chance against something with Donnie’s mind, don’t ever let it think.

Spiny softshell turtles can hold their breath for an hour, so I’m assuming that Donnie’s ability to hold his breath for longer came from his super soldier abilities. Since their status as a mutant makes them insanely strong, I’m assuming that carries over to more than just muscle strength. 

“I was gonna,” Leo said. “Methane is allergic to impact heat and chem reactions. Meaning here, it can’t use most of Donnie’s mystic artillery without blowing itself up. The problem is, Donnie’s a genius. He never had to fight in a place exactly like this.” Under scorching summer heat, in a pit of gas and goo. “But I’d give his mind some twenty seconds until it invents artillery that’s not operating on fire hazards. And as Donnie would say, Ifso facto-“ “I’m relatively certain Three would pronounce it correctly.” “Ifso facto,” Leo said firmly, “We have to be fast. Five seconds max.”

The phrase Leo is referring to, is Ipso Facto which means “by that very fact or act." the enemy of one's enemy may be ipso facto a friend. 

 “Adopted,” Draxum snarled. “One and Three had to sleep in the- All of you slept in the cold! While your immune system was still developing! Of course it stunted your growth. Do you have any idea of how…” Draxum’s eyes darted over him. “You need warmth to reach maturity!”

I love how Draxum keeps warring between being upset that the boys as children were mistreated, versus that his ‘weapons’ didn’t reach full potential. Basically, he’s saying all of them were stunted. That despite being insanely strong right now. The boys could have been stronger. 

Leo crossed his arms. “Cause my dad loves us,” he said. “All of us. Even m- y dummy twin.” “He stole you!” Draxum’s voice deepened, cracking its own vowels under the force. “I could’ve provided you with food and clothes and just imagine where ‘your twin’ could be now if he had gotten an education! If I had given you a true objective! I could’ve given you everything- I could’ve- I…” Draxum fell silent. He cleared his throat.

I find it interesting how Draxum follows along with Leo’s logic, and instead reverts the conversation to Donnie’s wellbeing. Leo doesn’t care how he was raised, as long as it made Donnie happy. So the idea of Donnie having a poor childhood, really plays on his emotions, and on the triggers and itches in his head. 

Something sharp twisted in his guts. Donnie would’ve been forced to follow you. You could’ve done whatever you wanted with him – all of them. Leo scratched at his scarred neck and meant every word as he said. “Yeah, no offense, but I would’ve had to orphan us.”

Draxum’s words are clearly affecting Leo. Once upon a time, his words would have triggered the follower response in Leo. However, as Leo has built a leader identity for himself, he was able to fight against Draxum, arguing with him, leader to leader.