#but i do still think that tolkien fandom really has a way of like wanting to explore aspects of the setting

[fangirl-erdariel]

Okay I know no one actually cares but I think it's interesting how this feels like one of those things that's super dependent on the fandom?

Like, for example, in Tolkien fandom, by my experience... the unnamed wives/sisters/daughters (and technically other unnamed characters, but let's be real those are the most common type) tend to get treated as a bit of a separate thing. Like. yeah. realistically in practice, the difference between a character who is mentioned by their relation to another character or something like that, but is not named, does not actually appear in any kind of meaningful way in the story, and absolutely nothing is known about them, and an OC, is... negligible if not nonexistent. But I do feel like they get treated/seen differently in the fandom, like even by people who are totally cool with OCs and enjoy playing with them, the reaction and takeaway to someone going "oh i'm writing a fic about my OC who's a Gondorian noblewoman during the War of the Ring/an elf from Eregion/a sailmaker in the Havens of Sirion" is different than if someone's like "i'm gonna write a fic about Isildur's wife/one of Anárion's daughters/the prince of Cardolan who was buried in the barrow that the hobbits were caught in", like the latter are considered a bit different from OCs even though both of these would be equally made up by the writer

but at the same time in a lot of other fandoms I'm in, those both would be just considered OCs. Like if I were to say in the Musketeers fandom that I'm gonna write a fic heavily featuring Constance's brothers (she mentions having brothers like... once? i think? and no further info on them is ever given), or if I said in BBC Merlin fandom that I'm gonna write a fic about Gwen and Elyan's mother. people would probably be like "oh okay you're writing OC fic", like their reaction wouldn't be any different to me saying i'm gonna write fic about an OC who doesn't happen to be connected to another character in that kind of way

and yeah idk i think it's genuinely interesting how that works. But that question abt whether it's an OC or not really depends on what fandom you're talking about

[apoloadonisandnarcissus]

On Galadriel’s Whitewashing by the Fandom

Allow me to rant. Because at this point I really have to ask this: what show have you all been watching? Many say that Sauron deceives the audience, but it was actually Galadriel who deceived you all, really.

In Season 1 and Season 2, we saw Galadriel using others left and right, for her own ends (including Halbrand, Míriel, Adar, etc.). Her character introduction in Season 1, was her beating the sh*t out of some kids over a paper boat. Then, we saw her treating her companions’ lives as if they meant nothing to her. This alone should tell you something, but no, you wanted to see the “feminist hero” that never was. She was acting like... Sauron, when he ditched the humans on the raft. 

Nah, you think?

Throughout Season 1, she was arrogant, high on herself and downright offensive to pretty much every character she came across. She was constantly acting as if she was better than everyone else, and others were beneath her, because of her delusions of grandeur. She disobeys Gil-galad over and over again because she doesn’t truly recognize his authority. He’s younger than her, and in her mind she’s the one who should be High Queen of the Noldor, because she’s the only surviving child of High King Finarfin. She lied and manipulated others to her own ends... like Sauron.

When your ways of manipulation are more radical than Sauron’s.

Allow me to say this once more: “Rings of Power” has Tolkien experts to assist with the writings of the scripts. Christian doctrine and preaching is a huge deal on Tolkien’s work, and even if the show producers don’t see it or don’t recognize it, it’s still there because it’s inevitable, you can't work Tolkien without it.

What does this mean? Galadriel is not a hero. Pride and greed are not good traits in Tolkien lore. She’s not one of the “good guys”. Not yet, and she’ll only get worse before she gets better. She’s not a villain, either; she’s an anti-hero like Adar. Why do you all think Satan’s little helper Sauron got so interested in her, in the first place? 

When Sauron of all characters gives you the side-eye and tells you to chill and tone down your antagonistic behavior.

And was she deceived by Sauron or did she deceive herself? Because Elrond, as usual, is right, and that’s why he calls her out on her bullsh*t in Season 2: Galadriel wanted the lost king who could ride her to victory, to destroy Sauron and cover herself in glory, being worshipped by everyone on Middle-earth as its savior. She wanted to use Halbrand as a pawn in her big plan, and it’s mind blowing she actually fell in love with him. Does this ring any bells? It’s because it’s Sauron’s plan, too. They are alike. Everyone agrees, but doesn’t realize just how much.

You think they showed us these glorious shots of them for “good” reasons? This is the first of Mairon’s deceptions on Season 1, another step closer to evil and his old ways. This is them high on power and on themselves.

Gil-galad foresaw that Galadriel would bring back Sauron if her pursuit for him would to continue. That’s why he sent her back to Valinor, in the first place. Guess what? He was right. It was Galadriel’s actions that condemned Middle-earth to Sauron’s tyranny. In the legendarium, the Elves are also the ones to blame. And what consequences did she faced for this? Enduring Elrond in charge for two episodes until she went rogue? Or perhaps the Valar have already banished her, and the show failed to mention this. 

Preach it, brother!

Elrond was also the only character who could see through Sauron’s “rings of power” masterplan (must be that Melian’s Maia blood kicking in), until he was deceived himself, as well, and now he also thinks the rings are a good thing. Because these rings allowed the Elves to “cheat death” and stay where they don’t belong. “Rings of Power” made this point very clear in Season 1: the Southlanders don’t want the Elves on their lands, they are invaders.

In truth, all of these characters are not only Sauron’s accomplices, but are feeding off his power, but they are acting as if they are the “good guys” here, and they need to save Middle-earth from the new Dark Lord. No wonder the Valar told them to f*ck off, and only sent a few helpers who didn’t even dealt with Sauron directly, even though they (being Maiar themselves) had the power to do that.

Long story, short: for the love of Eru, stop whitewashing Galadriel’s character, or believing her to be some sort of “Virgin Mary” nonsense type of character. Or if you actually think her behavior is somehow heroic I don’t even know what to tell you, honestly. Because it’s not suppose to be. And if you were upset with her “toning down” in Season 2, oh boy, I might have bad news for you.

We should appreciate Galadriel’s character for what it is; an anti-hero seeking redemption. She f*cks up a lot, is flawed, and makes huge mistakes, and that’s what will make her character arc feel earned and compelling. In that way, she’s the opposite of Sauron; as he falls into evil, she raises up to good; the Lady of Light and the Dark Lord. This is actually refreshing in the midst of so many boring-ass one-dimensional female characters we see nowadays, an ideal of perfection no one can relate to.

[neyafromfrance95]

Can I just say I kind of feel sorry for the writers because you can tell they conceived the show as revolving around Haladriel and they really don’t want to deal with the Celeborn issue so they play lip service while writing something completely different lol.

To be fair though Tolkien himself wasn’t interested in him or him and Galadriel as a pairing especially when you compare how he writes his epic romances. It really feels like he was put there so we can get Arwen pretty much. And then she leaves without him to Valinor while he’s left mourning her which 🤣.

But yeah as far as the show goes if they didn’t want fans to see Haladriel as romantic they would have shown her grieving Celeborn…instead of falling in love with her arch enemy. This is just my opinion though but you can’t say how much she loves and grieves Celeborn while showing the complete opposite on the show. There was a way to center the relationship between her and Sauron without it being framed as romantic/soulmates but they didn’t which tells you everything you need to know.

exactly!

even before trop, it has been believed that the only reason tolkien wrote celeb0rn was to somehow connect galadriel to arwen and elrond.

the initial plan was for gal to marry elrond, but tolkien wanted galadriel to be the leader in her own right (it is her main defining trait) and keep doing her own thing. he did not want her to be defined by her husband/child. if she was married to elrond, she would be known as elrond's wife/arwen's mother first. so he gave her a npc family in the background instead.

but even then, i'd say her relationship with elrond is still more important in the books. and in the movies, she even seems closer to gandalf, lmao. so i'd say it would be better to focus on her relationship with elrond and establish her friendship with gandalf rather than introduce a new love interest (bc yeah, even if it's not explicitly romantic, haladriel is romantically framed).

btw, don't even get me started about how everyone seems to forget about finrod??? the one galadriel misses, the real "third" between her and sauron, her "guiding light" IS FINROD! nenya symbolizes galadriel's desire for power = sauron and galadriel's light/wisdom she got from finrod! nenya was made by sauron's design and using finrod's dagger! it's like sauron and finrod's battle continues within galadriel.

i don't dislike celeb0rn, but i think it's crazy that he was created so that galadriel can't be reduced to the domestic role and yet certain segments of the fandom do that anyways - reduce her to being her npc family's wife/mother in the show that intends to explore other aspects of her story and identity!

and idk man, but i feel like tolkien must have had some ideas for sauron and galadriel. "he gropes ever to see me and my thought" feels very significant. and they mirror each other in several ways as well.

trop does a fantastic job at giving this dynamic context. galadriel's greatest desire is to possess power, sauron's greatest desire is to posses the light. it makes sense for them to have a push-pull dynamic that's both intimate and cosmic in its' essence. the perfect way to expand on all the little details connecting sauron and galadriel in the lore. and it's just a fascinating story on its' own!

it would be such a waste to discard this dynamic for the sake of introducing the character that was never supposed to be that important. especially considering that the writers seem to have the show conceived with haladriel as its' core in their minds.

[conundrumoftime]

no ACTUALLY ship and let ship. no, really. including Haladriel including Celeborn including everyone.

Checking on the Tumblr Haladriel tag this morning like the Troy-arriving-with-pizza gif...

Anyway: I left the following comment on someone's blog about this, and while I don't have any particular wish to fight with that person or reblog them in a way that might encourage anyone else to get into that, I do want to copy my comment here because 'ship and let ship' is something I do feel very, very strongly about:

I'm a Haladriel shipper who's been in this fandom since 2022 (you can see my 20+ Haladriel fics here if you want evidence of that: https://archiveofourown.org/users/eye_of_a_cat/works) and in Tolkien fandom on and off for many years before. I’m one of the shippers who was on the receiving end of a massive anti hate campaign over Haladriel during 2023-4, including repeated vicious suicide-baiting anon hate comments. I’m also a multishipper who talks about Celeborn too and writes fic about him as well. Can I please ask that you consider the old fandom adage of ‘ship and let ship’ on this one? I don’t care whether you like this fictional elf [ETA: Celeborn] or not - we all have different tastes - but when you start going after the shippers as people, calling us “probably antis masquerading as shippers”, telling us to “be honest” that we just hate Sauron x Galadriel (seriously, do you think I and fellow multishippers are writing all these Haladriel fics as some kind of elaborate undercover act?), setting yourself up as some judge of who counts as a Haladriel and who doesn’t - this is just unpleasant for everybody and makes the fandom a toxic, bitter space.  People have different tastes. People approach shipping in different ways. Fandom is a big wide world.  What I always ask people who hate Haladriel to do is mute the tag and live and let live when it comes to other people’s preferences, and don’t go after *people* because you don’t like their ship. Can you please consider doing the same for Celeborn?

I don't want endless discourse about this. I hate ship wars. I have a ton of messy unpleasant stuff happening in my real life right now and fandom - writing, fun, creativity - is such a welcome escape valve for me. I don't care who likes which elf or which ship, but ffs can we please leave each other in peace about it?

I am always happy to talk about any of my ships or the characters I like in more detail - at the drop of a hat in fact! - but for obvious reasons, I don't do this in a ship war context where I feel like someone's expecting me to 'prove' myself or justify why I'm allowed to like something. Because the point is that it doesn't matter why someone else likes something or whether or not you get its appeal - what matters is the ability to get along with each other anyway.

Some of my best fandom friends are people who don't like many of the things I like, and vice versa. One of my dearest fandom friends I've known for over 15 years has some ships that make me recoil in ARGH NO horror. And she doesn't like everything I'm into either! And we still get along fine, as people, because we know it's ships. It's fiction. It's not a referendum on us as people.

I don't care if people like Celeborn or not - he is a made-up elf, he is not real. I don't care if people like Haladriel or not - non-book-canon ships and EtL ships aren't for everyone. But the fans who like these things are real people who should be allowed to do our thing in peace.

[crownedwithstars]

Anyone who has followed me for some time knows that I like to complain about the treatment of women in fiction, and particularly in headcanons and fanon that treats a female character in a more venomous - and dare I say it, misogynistic - way than canon ever did. There are multiple instances of this in the Silm, but I think Indis is one of the female characters who gets done dirty most often.

The funny thing is, you see it often disguised as "giving her nuance", or as criticism. But when you look at what is presented as said nuance or criticism, and then consider what Tolkien actually wrote about Indis, too often these things have little to nothing to do with one another. In fact, "nuance" appears to mean making the female character more responsible for a male character's bad actions than she actually is.

I don't mean to say that you can't dislike Indis or that it's inherently misogynistic to do so. But it's good to realise the existence of internalised misogyny and how that impacts the way you expect a woman to behave - and if you're criticising her chiefly because her interests and actions are in conflict with those of a male character, it may be useful to examine that criticism more closely.

Some of the things I've seen Indis accused of are: she is creepily obsessed with Finwë (as if unrequited feelings for someone unavailable aren't a common enough phenomenon), her motive is (improper) sexual interest in him which may in fact be predatory, she bears more responsibility for Finwë's actions than he himself does, she actively schemes to make sure Míriel will stay dead so that she can have her man (even though she doesn't get involved with Finwë until after Míriel has declared her desire to remain dead and the Valar have given permission to Finwë to remarry), she may have used some magical means to enchant Finwë, she hates her step-son and is an abusive step-mother to him, and actually she's so terrible that Fëanor's downspiral is more her fault than the literal Satan figure's (who is in text explicitly stated to be responsible for the fact). Fëanor is also presented in the terms of modern understanding of mental health as if these could possibly apply (and as if we had enough information to diagnose him), and his issues are in large part designated to Indis and her actions.

Tolkien didn't really write that much about Indis - certainly not enough for most of the said criticism of her to be more than conjecture. What little he does say about her paints a picture of a person of sweet and joyous temperament who's not embittered in a situation that could have made her deeply unhappy. You can argue that she's selfish or at least inconsiderate of Fëanor - nevermind the fact that Finwë is bent on remarrying and would probably have done it with or without her - but the other way to see the situation is that she thinks she's doing a good thing for them both, helping a man move on and giving a motherless child a new caregiver. Obviously, Fëanor does not want that (although it would explain a lot about their relationship in a way that does align with canon without making one or both of them a bad person: Indis hopes to be a mother to him in a genuinely well-intentioned way, but he feels she's trying to replace his birth mother, and resents her because she's not Míriel). But nothing in the situation indicates that Indis herself has bad intentions, and it's not her or his fault that it doesn't work out. Sometimes it's just not anybody's fault. We don't even know what Fëanor's first reaction is upon learning that Finwë means to remarry: we only know that he does not love Indis or her children and that he moves out of his father's household while still young. It doesn't imply the degree of resentment applied to this situation by fandom.

The idea of Indis wanting to comfort both father and son is also conjecture of course, but it's no less so than any of the ideas listed above where she's presented as an unsympathetic, wanton schemer, and it certainly is no less plausible. Indis is a rather blatant example of how in too much media, women are allowed only two roles: either she's Madonna, or she's a whore, and this is determined by a male perspective. Indis clearly falls into the latter category as a woman whose chastity, obedience and willingness to self-sacrifice do not bend for the male favourite.

If you judge Indis, at least judge her fairly.

[inthehouseoffinwe]

I feel like the whole "Elwing jumping out with the silmaril due to trauma" explanation doesn't really answer the question about why she and Earendil seemed to just "turn the page" with their kids when they got to Valinor. It's strange to me that when meeting with the Valar and giving them something very important like the silmaril, they didn't try to leverage their position and secure/negotate something for their kids (at least verifying if they're dead or alive, getting an affirmation they'll be safe, or trying to retrieve them) from the gods. It's like they just decided there's nothing more to do here, got immortality, and never looked back since beating Morgoth is the only important issue now. Maybe this is just a narrative hole resulting from Tolkein trying to keep things brief, but it gives me the striking impression that they chose ultimately chose each other over their own kids.

Hey! Thanks for sending this!

I’ll admit, I’m not totally clear with what happened post arrival to Valinor but I do agree. It could explain the initial jump but everything after? Ehhh.

I know they were worried about the twins. But their actions don’t really… show that.

I guess my only thought is they didn’t expect to never come back (a bit of a weak argument imo, it’s pretty clear Valinor is a one way trip) and barely got the Valar to agree to do something in Beleriand. I won’t get into how messed up it is the Valar waited for a stolen silmaril before even considering to help, but maybe because of that they didn’t want to push their luck?

But I also know 99.9% of parents still… would. Or they’d at least ensure their kids were safe. If Elwing’s so traumatised by the SoF, you’d think this is the first thing she does. It took time for the Valar to decide, long enough to get over the initial stress and start demanding, even if it was done through Eärendil.

Even if we say they only thought of Morgoth. I’d think to say ‘hey I got you this thing, now make sure my kids survive your war against our enemy.’

I don’t think it was Tolkien’s intention, and this is partly because he’s brushing over large swathes of plot. But the way things went and nothing really mentioning they thought of their children or regretted what happened to their people doesn’t do any favours. It also follows a very Beren and Luthien trend of ‘choosing each other against the world’ (and dooming everyone else in the process.) Which doesn’t help either.

And this leads to my issues with Eärendil x Elwing in general.

They remind me of every single couple who weren’t ready for marriage, rushing into it with this romanticised idea, and having no idea what to do after. Add kids to the mix and it’s a recipe for disaster. They love them, yes, but they don’t know what to do with them when things go wrong.

Especially in this case where Elwing should be expected to rule when her husband’s away, considering he’s gone so often and for so long. If she was so traumatised and young, why let her get into a marriage which would result in so many responsibilities?

The whole ‘but they were in love!’ thing has always annoyed me across every fandom I’ve been in 😂 It seems so selfish to condemn an entire people to an unfit ruler because you’re in love. It’s selfish to bring in a weak leader when there’s war constantly at your doorstep. This goes for both Eärendil and Elwing.

Ok sure. This case it was the sons of Fëanor. But what would she have done if Morgoth launched an attack? Can anyone honestly tell me she’d know how to direct and lead people to relative safety? It’s a pretty basic demand from a ruler in as bad a situation as they were in.

You don’t bring a traumatised woman, or even ignoring that, you don’t bring a young inexperienced woman, who won’t be able to think clearly or make good decisions when put under pressure.

And if you know you’re traumatised and/or inexperienced you don’t agree to the position.

[marta-bee]

This story from @eilinelsghost really and truly blew me away. I don't want to say too much for risk of spoiling it (for he that breaks a thing to see how it works, etc. etc.), but by way of summary, it involves Finarfin and Finrod being reunited after Finrod's death and re-incarnation, and it is every bit as intense as a fic would need to be to do that moment really, really well.

I mean: damn.

Aside from that, I think it's pretty well known in these parts that my two big fandoms are Tolkien and Sherlock Holmes. What I've maybe made less obvious is I relate to these fandoms in pretty different ways, and this fic helped me understand why.

Tolkien is the one fandom I've ever really felt driven to write for, though I don't read it much these days. Whereas Sherlock Holmes, Sherlock especially, I love to read but feel so little drive to actually write in. And I think it's because with Sherlock, there are these great fun characters and so many people still writing in this really accessible, relaxing writing style. Also, canon really did do quite a few of us Johnlockers horribly wrong. Slipping back into that world is like slipping into a warm bath at the end of a long day. But there's not this metaphysical grist the way there is with the Silmarillion especially, and the way my brain works, there's nothing to work out the same way.

And writing is hard. It takes me months often as not, and while I love being on the other side of a good story-telling, the getting-there process is quite grueling. Even the wordcrafting, the turns-of-phrase, I really love writing a character that demands that and whose character demands it. Mycroft, maybe. Denethor, certainly. But more and more, with Sherlock stories, the kind of stories I feel like I should be writing there just don't seem to spring naturally from the canon.

Then I read this gem and got a glimpse of what I was yearning for. It's the archaic language, I think, and the way that other-ness just really, really serves the theme I think the author is aiming for. It's gloriously told on its own, but it's also not (to borrow a line from Hitchhiker's Guide) not just some guys, you know? It's almost like Finrod and Finarfin are characters almost (but not quite) elevated to archetypes so we can play around with what it means to be reembodied in Arda Marred, in a way a philosophical treatise never quite could.

Doesn't mean the story itself doesn't pack a punch. This is plunge the dagger in and twist it around while you're in there why don't you? level angst, and I do mean that as the best compliment.

As I said: damn.

To the extent I'm in a place to make New Year's resolutions, I'd say this makes me want to reread the Silm and maybe write some Tolkien fic of my own again. That wanting is the highest compliment I can muster. Whether I can actually do that is an open question (I'm both tired and very busy with RL), but the desire is real.

Seriously, Silmarillion fans, if you've gotten this far and are still reading me please go and read the thing. For a oneshot especially, it packed an utterly ridiculous amount of wallop.

Sherlockians, don't worry, I'm not going anywhere. But sometimes, game just has to take a moment to recognize game.

[callipraxia]

I was just asked to share a favorite writing tip, and as I wrote, it sort of organically expanded from the realm of writing tips I have received and into the realm of writing tips I’ve worked out for myself. I cut most of that from the original response because it wasn’t really what was being asked, but for anyone who might find it helpful - here are six notes on writing from someone who’s been doing it for twenty-something years and has no Agenda, financial or academic, to steer me much astray from confession of my actual practices:

Tip #1: my favorite writing tip I ever got from an outside source is (paraphrasing) “if you want to write like Tolkien, the key isn’t to stick a bunch of dwarves and elves in a low-medieval setting. The key is to write about subjects that you love as much as Professor Tolkien loved Northern European languages and mythology and the pre-Industrial English countryside and Catholic theology and etc.” It isn’t the details of what creatures you have in there that gives something that particular engaging quality that will carry it through and overrule a lot of its inevitable flaws - it is, instead, a subtle, difficult-to-define sort of energy the work will have that, as far as I can tell (and I’ve tried, many times, with concepts and projects that just didn’t work out), cannot be faked.

Tip #2: Based on my own experience as it applies to Tip #1, start trying to figure out what your interests are as early as possible and never stop looking even once you think you’ve found them. There’s a plethora of low-to-no-cost, low-to-no-commitment ways to pick up at least the basics of topics you know nothing about***, so give something a try every now and then, you might surprise yourself. For another personal anecdote, I grew up with the firm belief that physics was something I would a) find really boring and b) not be smart enough to get even the vaguest grasp on no matter how hard I worked, and that even trying was therefore probably a waste of time. I still can’t do the math and would probably flunk any real exams, but physics writing, obtained from the public library’s New Arrivals section, has ended up being one of the richest sources for my writing that I’ve ever encountered.

Tip #3: if you truly can’t find a subject in the world you find yourself especially interested in, that’s probably either the depression or the after effects of bad educational experiences talking. Or both - both is always an option. Start addressing that stuff and the world will most likely become a much more interesting place and you will most likely become a much more interesting writer.

Tip #4: if you find yourself with a sort of author crush, with someone (including other fan authors!) whose work you really, really admire, and you desperately want to be like them when you grow up - find out what they read and read it, too. This doesn’t work 100% of the time, but it is often a productive exercise; the reason I tend to include so many footnotes in my fics is because I’ve benefited so much from other people who left footnotes with reading recommendations or trivia explanations on their fics.

Tip #5, the Big One: Combine multiple things you are geeking out about into one story. The best writing I probably ever did began with how certain characters were represented in three different fanfics in two different fandoms. The presentation of Character A from Franchise 1 in two fics reminded me, in ways she normally wouldn’t, of the presentation of Character B from one fic from Franchise 2. I also just really liked Character C and thought it might be fun to introduce some elements of Character D to him and then see what happened, so I isolated some of the things I liked about those characterizations and combined a character trait or two from each in order to form two ‘new’ basic characters who would form the ‘center’ of the story. I then ran them both through additional filters: the first filter was some specific other interests (ornithology and tea culture) I happened to have, and then the second was the general impressions I’d gotten of family lives and dynamics from reading a couple of blogs for several years****. And then I topped this concoction off by dusting it lightly with references to and elements from Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs and an old Cage the Elephant song. Yeah. Other sources of musical inspiration have included, but are far, far from limited to, songs from Breaking Benjamin, Foster the People, Hozier, Lana del Rey, The Mountain Goats, The Offspring, and The Smashing Pumpkins. Even I kind of roll my eyes at that list, but hey, if it works, it works.

Tip #6: Don’t get the wrong idea from Tip #5 - I don’t recommend approaching stories or subjects with the aim of finding something to combine with something else in mind. The example I gave coalesced in my head over the course of several years before I ever put any of it into writing. The ideas will form in their own time, and I think the best thing to do is to just absorb as much enjoyable media and neat information as you can and then let your brain gradually do its own thing in its own time. It’s frustrating, but trying to think of things to jam together for a story or character idea on purpose doesn’t work nearly as well in my experience - maybe it can be pulled off for a one-off, preferably one that is a direct homage to or parody of the original, but when it comes to longer-term and more nuanced stuff, it’s rare for a deliberately sought out mash-up to ever quite get that Certain Something that I talked about back in Tip #1.

*** I can only really speak for the U.S. here, but with that caveat - I cannot overstate the utility of public library resources like inter-library loan and Friends of the Library bag sales, along with the contents of the library itself and particularly the New Arrivals sections if one is fortunate enough to be within reasonable driving distance of an even moderately well-stocked public library. If they’ve got a subscription to something like JSTOR or another academic database, so much the better, though you can find a surprising amount of information just through free articles and excerpts on JSTOR at least. The website and app Coursera also has a modest but useful collection of free courses, some of which are designed to be completed in as little as two days, and the similar website/app edX has quite a few classes where you can access the materials freely enough and just won’t get credit toward any professional certificates unless you pay them. I’ve done some studies also through Modern States, which is completely free as far as I remember and aimed at preparing people for exams that could, in theory, allow someone to test out of their freshman year of college or university. I have the very vague impression that Khan Academy sometimes gets mixed reviews, but I’ve found it a useful resource before. I’m sure this list also only just scratches the surface of what’s out there, too, since these are just resources I’ve personally used.

**** One of these was a LiveJournal, to give you some idea of how long ago this was…The other, in the category of “less obvious places to look,” was a collection of tea-tasting logs from a website called steepster; some users use/at least used to use their logs as a sort of journal/social media as well as a place to review teas, and some of those people are really good writers. Haven’t been to steepster in a while, though, should probably peek in sometime to see if it and/or any of my favorite loggers are still around….

[fatcatlittlebox]

I see so much discourse on X about Celeborn and as a multi shipper it's quite annoying. I don't think people realize that Haladriel isn't going anywhere. In fact, when you compare all the established canon couple fanworks against all the protagonist/antagonist (even anti-heros) fanworks in ALL SERIES/BOOKS/SHOWS/ETC TO EVER EXIST, there will always be more of the latter simply because of 2 reasons: the what if's to be explored and the forbidden aspect of it. I wish ppl would calm down. I also find it silly when I see my own mutuals dunk on Haladriel over the 'toxic' aspects and it bothers me too since I like both ships. Unlike Celedriel, you guys can take a Sauron & Galadriel relationship (in all sense of the word, not just in a pairing context) and take it in ANY direction you want, with enough creativity. You can write them as friends in an AU, or even before they became known by their names (like her meeting Mairon before he became Sauron). You can write S1 and S2 (even 3-5) divergence fics, redemption arcs, dystopia fics, crack fics, dead doves, or even fluff (like off-stage AU where they're not enemies off screen). Heck, since you guys got the mind palace thing, and with her growth over the ages, you can even find ways to make non-AU fluff/hurt&comfort (maybe when they're both tired of this endless fight of the ages because it's a stalemate and he wants to repent but he can't due to Morgoth's corruption and he knows it?). Haladriel has a cosmic connection, and I think this implies that even if one of them dies, it will still exist somehow even when they pass into the Undying lands. Haladriels don't understand how much advantage they have with being portrayed by actors with amazing chemistry, an established and growing fanbase, an entire season without any kind of background conflict that takes the focus away from them as their relationship was explored and developed, having it all: UST, 'acquaintances fighting alongside each other to become friends' and the 'friends-to almost?-to enemies' aspect, and there are even Tolkien's writings that confirm he is capable of redemption. I've even seen well-written fan theories on ways that he can redeem himself too. It's like star-crossed lovers baked into every kind of trope that ppl like to explore. Really, I don't understand how it's not obvious enough. Yes, she ends up with Celeborn, and they are happily married and their relationship is secure and comfy. I know that may sound boring to some, but that's why I like Haladriel too, because their relationship isn't confined to only one narrative, unlike Tolkien's works. Yes, you can argue that Haladriel has a doomship narrative because they don't end up together, but the appeal of doomships is that you can DO so much with it in fanon, even completely reverse it (as I've seen in fanfics already). If you tried to do something similar with an established canon ship where they are supposed to be happily married, it doesn't make much sense, unless it's for angst. Celeborn is just a humble normal elf and he doesn't have any that. He just trying to vibe, support Galadriel, and not piss anyone off lol. And I say all of that as a pro-Celeborn fan lol. Sorry for this long rant, I just wish they would leave my poor silver clam alone ;_; and for fans to stop fighting.

I agree 💯 with all of this. That’s why I can happily digest all forms of haladriel. Modern AU, canon divergence, coffee shop fluff, Sauron redemption arc, socially awkward Mairon. All of it. And thank peanut butter and bagels the fanfic writers in this fandom are bar none some of the best fucking writers I have ever read. We are so lucky.

[readychilledwine]

do you ever feel awkward writing for Eris? I saw your poll about doing an SJM bad guys week, so I'm guessing not.

Warning - This is going to become SJM critical. Please know I am not anti any of these characters. I am, however, critical of SJM as a long-time fantasy reader.

You answered your own question in your ask there, friend.

I do not have issues writing for Eris. The main issue the fandom has with him is the situation with Mor, and here's my stance on that:

We have an issue with the timeline around this incident, so I will make my judgement call when SJM does her eventual retcon and fixes it.

We know Eris is younger than Mor and Rhys, who are around the same age. Mor was sold to Autumn as Eris's bride at the tender age of 17. When Helion is giving us his gorgeous monolog talking about his love for Momma Autumn, we find out that she and Beron were married young and had barely been married for two decades around the start of the first war. Meaning Eris was around 19 at the time.

This passage from Rhys is a little hazy and unclear, but from how I and several other people took it, he was around 28 at the start of that war, meaning Mor was also around 27 to 28. That makes Mor at least 8 to 9 years older than Eris. Meaning, he potentially was a LITERAL child when he and Mor were engaged. He would have been around the age of 7 to 9 and already had the mindset to fear Beron.

This where I am going to look SJM critical. She is great at a few things, creating plotholes by retconing, and fucking up timelines due to her retconing.

Let's say she retcons to correct that issue. We still know Eris is younger than Mor by a year or two. So, let's say he was 15 to 16. At 15 to 16 years old, I want you to think about what you would have done in this situation:

You are a young prince or princess. Your father is a known abuser and racist. You all have just found out your betrothed has sullied themselves with a person your father considers below all of you, and you know it was done to get out of a marriage she did not want to be in. You and your men find her on the border of your father's court, beaten and with a nail in her womb. Here are your options:

1. You take her back to your father, the known racist and abuser. Thus making her, in reality, his problem. You have witnessed how your father likes to handle his problems. You also know he's angry and embarrassed this female made the choice to sleep with a lesser born bastard Illyrian over marry his high fae princeling.

2. You cannot risk touching her, so leave her somewhere her friends can find her without risking her or them having to enter Autumn. This will allow her to go home, where she is safe, and heal.

In both scenarios, Eris could not win. He either took Mor to his father and risked her death and was blamed for that, or he left her knowing her friends were more than likely coming and be blamed for that as well. He was now the villain in Mor's story regardless of what actions he took, and he was that villain as a teen. A literal child. As a child he picked to allow Morrigan life. To allow her to live without being trapped the way he and his mother are.

Eris, in theory, made a selfless choice. He made the choice to damn himself and his reputation for the sake of Mor and as he says, it cost him..

As for me being willing to write other SJM bad guys-

It is perfectly normal and acceptable in every other fandom to be attracted to the bad guys and to write dark fanfiction about them. You see it all time in Tolkien, Harry Potter, and (grossly since they are all children) it has resurged in the Percy Jackson fandom. Please have several seats and let me, and the several other people who are excited for it, enjoy my little story about Pollux, my reader, and his heavy cock that sways to and fro.

It's also, as someone pumping out the amount of content I am right now, really nice to get to write a dark fic with a villain here and there for a change of pace, so thank you to everyone who is supportive and open to me doing that.

[cilil]

feel free to ignore if this is too personal a question, but i’m curious- what does the username cilil mean / why did you choose it?

Heh! Good question, anon, I'm actually surprised nobody asked that yet (not on here at least), so let me tell you a fun little story.

cilil - or Cílil, if we want to be grammatically correct - is technically just that: A name. It's Sindarin and means "renewal" (cîl - renewal plus feminine suffix -il).

Since I know some have been wondering about this, I want to take the opportunity to add that Sindarin c is always pronounced [k], so it's "kilil", not church Latin style "silil"; though don't worry about it, since it's just my username and the latter version sounds like "seal-il" I don't get my panties in a twist about it or anything :D

I made the name Cílil many years ago, years before I showed up here or talked to anyone in the Tolkien fandom. It was supposed to be given to a Maia who is wandering Middle-earth on her own to experience life and be part of creation, unaligned with both the good and evil Ainur - just on her own and serving no Vala.

At the time, however, I didn't really "do the OC thing" - not trying to be shady or act like I'm "better" of course, I've grown to love OCs, have a few of my own and support them, as you all know. It was just what my modus operandi and level of comfort was at the time; I still had cringe culture to kill, plus being in other fandoms and whatnot, so the idea was shelved for the time being.

Then, years later, I came back to the Silmarillion fandom and it suddenly occurred to me that the username(s) I was using at the time were rather specific to my old fandom that I wished to leave behind. To make matters worse, I had just joined a Discord server and was now sitting in front of my laptop, mildly panicking like "girl think quickly now and rename yourself before people know you under a name you no longer want".

Cílil was the first that came to mind. And I liked it - not just the sound of it, but also because it was so fitting. Renewal. That was exactly what I was doing. Closing a chapter, going somewhere else, beginning a new one, starting from scratch (most notably this blog). It was poetic in a way. And so I took it. Just put it in lower case because I liked that aesthetically and some sites like Tumblr and AO3 don't allow the í, so there.

As for the Maia whose name I stole, I also kind of stole the whole persona to turn it into a sort of bit for me to play, this funny little meta side joke that I am a Maia who's hanging out with the mortals in Middle-earth and spilling all the tea and sharing all the stories I collected over the years. It's just a thing I do with all my online personae for shits and gigs and running gags with friends, pretending I'm part of the universe in question in some silly (dare I say sill-il? :P) way.

The character, though I never introduced them on this blog, has since been revamped, remade, remixed, remastered and most importantly renamed, but they keep "Cílil" as one of the many alternate names they were given in Middle-earth, just as a sort of easter egg. They would've required a Quenyan name as a default anyway, so that all worked out nicely.

So yeah. This is the lore of Cílil/cílil/cilil. Hope you all enjoyed the ancient lore :)

[sindar-princeling]

just passing by to say that i love reading your takes about the rop episodes! i really dislike the show but i wish people could just have civil conversations about its real flaws instead of just spewing racist crap like i'm seeing a lot of purists doing. since the show came out it seems to me that you have to love the show and excuse every single thing it does because the bigots hate it or else you're a bigot too. idk it makes me not want to engage with the fandom that much

yeah especially new tolkien-related content always makes you remember how many racist pieces of shit treat every racist trope he wrote like actual word of god, because they suddenly start crawling out of every corner of the internet :// and I'm just here like. I just want to not enjoy a mediocre show in peace and see what they're doing to my favourite fictional world.

(I am of course aware that this situation is not about me - a white as raw bread dough central european - this is only my personal annoyance)

(ESPECIALLY since the show the racists hate so much for the cardinal sin of *checks notes* having a black elf in it.............. has actually already contained some really racist tropes (rhun will never be free of the racism present in the original text, it seems)! not to mention amazon mainly cast POC as their original characters (arondir, disa, some harfoots, miriel being the only exception i can think of rn) in a move that I imagine was meant to not piss off the racists too much, because there's still money to be milked out of them. amazon don't think we didn't notice your spinelessness)

.......ANYWAY, I'm sorry for derailing this so much, rop asks always make me ramble

I'm really glad you're enjoying my posts! I dislike the show but I try not to be an Angry Internet Person about it, mostly for my own peace of mind but also not to spew bile on yalls dashes - I just don't want my blog that I have for fun to be such a place. So I'm really happy that someone like you who wants to see civil conversations about it feels that they can do so here, it really means a lot to hear!!

it's the same reason why I don't really go to the main tag - many people like the show, they enjoy the aspects I don't - and I know going into the tag is pointless, I'll just be disagreeing with most of the posts I see. the most sensible thing I can do while criticising the show is add the 'rop critical' tag so those people have a way of knowing that my opinions won't interest them either, and just... live and let live, you know.

(and leave the longest, most cathartic rants for one of my very best friends, who actually wants to listen to me 😂)

[apoloadonisandnarcissus]

I have no problem of being accused of “whitewashing” Sauron’s character because the majority of the “Rings of Power” fandom doesn’t really understand what he is, anyway.

Sauron is not a human nor a symbolically human character (like the Elves, who are meant to represent the intellectual and artistic-driven humans on Tolkien legendarium). Charlie Vickers already said, using different words, that the fandom can’t really atribute human-like feelings (or characteristics) onto his character, and he’s absolutely correct. Because he’s not playing a human.

Charlie talked about this in the context of Sauron’s cosmic connection to Galadriel in “Rings of Power”, and almost everyone nods in agreement, but then makes the mistake of projecting human-like onto Sauron (narcissism, psychopath, sociopath, whatever it may be).

Sauron/Mairon is a Maia, which is the equivalent of a demigod or an angel in Tolkien legendarium; a servant to a Vala, the Gods or archangels of the lore. He was created by Eru Ilúvatar, so he’s divine in nature, a higher being, at the beginning. He chooses to side with Melkor/Morgoth (the Devil of the legendarium); he becomes a fallen angel, a demon. He’s not longer a “higher being” per say because, in Catholic-Christian tradition, demons operate on the lower frequencies of existence.

I would even argue that Tolkien wrote Sauron as more of an idea, than an actual character. With this being the reason why we don’t have much dialogue from him throughout the legendarium. Of course, “Rings of Power” needs to adapt this to the best of their possibilities, and I think they are doing a great job with Sauron’s character, and it’s also clear Charlie Vickers has done his homework on the character.

I still see a bit of hesitation on Charlie’s part on elaborating on Sauron in his interviews, which is very common among actors who have to play villains or “supervillains”. He doesn’t want to sound like he’s justifying his actions or making Sauron look sympathetic. But Charlie, like all actors, understands his character motivations better than anyone. And the show is trying to make the audience understand it, as well, but this usually flies over peoples’ heads who are accusing the show of making Sauron “relatable” in some way or even make you cheer for him or whatever.

This could be the case if he was a human character, but he isn’t. He’s a spiritual being, a supernatural creature, a demon. Us, humans, can’t never relate to him, no matter how many spins folks try to make on it. He operates in a total different level. And that’s why I hate with a burning passion these takes of him having “evil” human-like characteristics or mental disorders. To me, this is completely missing the point of Sauron’s character.

Of course he feels entitled to rule Middle-earth; he helped create the place alongside the other Valar and Maiar at the beginning of time. He literally shaped the world he seeks to dominate; his qualities are imprinted on it (this being the reason why he has true immortality and can’t never be destroyed for real, by the way). Of course he sees himself above Men, Elves and Dwarves, because he literally is. Tolkien wrote him that way.

Would you call the Christian/Jewish/Islamic God, Odin, Zeus, and all the others God of worldwide mythology “psychopaths” or “narcissists”? Probably not because they are Gods, and Gods are, in general, assh*les and d*cks.

Even in Tolkien legendarium, who drew inspiration from several mythological sources, Eru Ilúvatar sinks an entire island, killing everyone in it, because Men wanted to achieve immortality. Is he a “psychopath” too? Tolkien tells us that Eru is the supreme authority on his legendarium, the ultimate good, because he symbolizes the Christian God; and during the Second age He’s very much like the Old Testament God, a punisher, more than the modern “God the Father”, and Númenor is the Atlantis myth.

I’m not really a fan of the phrasing of Sauron seeing other characters like insects, but it’s a way to put it. Precisely because he’s a demigod, who’ll aspire to become an actual God. And that’s probably his biggest sin in the legendarium, alongside with betraying Eru Ilúvatar (God) for Melkor (Satan). On the Third Age, Sauron becomes a “incarnation of evil” and a “spirit of malice and hatred”, like Tolkien tells us. But he’s not “absolute evil” because Tolkien doesn’t believe in such a thing. I already talked about this in here.

In “Rings of Power”, it seems the “not wholly evil” bit is related to his connection with Galadriel. His true intentions/feelings towards her are yet to be revealed to the audience. Why does Sauron want to bind himself to Galadriel so badly? We had this plot in two seasons already.

The simplest explanation is that Sauron wants to harvest her light for himself, but he could easily find the same light in every other Elf who was born during the Years of the Trees in Valinor, because the light of the Two Trees also shines on them. Even Celebrimbor had the same light, and Sauron never had the intention of binding them together. So, indeed, what makes Galadriel different? Because he was willing to share his power with her, too.

All of this is very theological, but it is what it is. Don’t shoot the messenger. We can’t really analyze Tolkien legendarium without the heavy religious Catholic-Christian inspiration, because that’s the core of the mythology Tolkien created. It’s really inevitable if we want to understand it.

Anyway, you can think of Second Age Sauron as a sort of “Dracula on steroids”. I think that’s the closest comparison I can find. Because Dracula is also demonic character, but he’s not a “fallen angel” like Sauron. I wouldn’t exactly compare him with representations of Satan/Devil/Lucifer on pop culture, because that’s Melkor.

Then we have character arcs, and even Sauron has one in Tolkien legendarium: Sauron starts “Rings of Power” in his repentance era (Halbrand); then we have Annatar or “Sauron the reformer” who wants to rebuild Middle-earth with good intentions; then the “King of Men” when he starts to get carried away with pride and power; until he returns to his role as Morgoth’s secretary/representative, at the end of the Second age; he gets defeated. When he returns in the Third Age (the version most fans are familiar with from “The Lord of the Rings” trilogy and the Peter Jackson adaptations), he claims to be Morgoth come again, and this is the evilest he has even been, a “second incarnation of evil” like Tolkien describes him.

[esther-dot]

I'm the 2011/2013 Tumblr anon, and this is kind of embarrassing to admit but I'm also the original Dune anon, if that gives you any idea of my fandom background. (*/ω＼*) I've been in fandom since I was probably eleven or twelve, so fandom is basically home to me lol. I was always more of a sci-fi fan than a fantasy fan growing up, and so it wasn't until GOT I heard of the books; I'd never been a fan of the show, and I was impartial at best to the books. (At school, I knew classmates were reading them--- but for full context, I was a nerd disliked by other nerds for being too weird, so I wanted nothing to do with Tolkien/GRRM lol). I still have a bone to pick with GRRM (and this is partly what limits my participation) and in the case of my regular fandom, I'm very much used to isolation lol. (It's alt-right trolls who have a problem with me... sigh. Imagine a ship like Jonsa which redeems the books' thematic ideas and that's my situation).

I actually was familiar with the Sansa/Sandor ship long before I was interested in either media, because of the shipping circles I run in. Going from that lack of context to the context revealed in the actual books was very weird, because they seem like extremely disparate concepts. If you take Sansa/Sandor scenes and rearrange things, including the numbers in Sansa's age, it does feel like a powerfully violent BatB rendering with a dash of medieval pseudorealism; he's no prince and the romance is impossible, but perhaps he could be her knight or guardian in an unconsummated chaste romance or secret affair etc. It made me really rethink some of the ships I was interested in, and why, and where my tastes diverged from people I usually trusted. I am much less interested in ship archetypes by themselves than how those are enshrined in the narrative/themes at stake. It's also just interesting to me that Jonsa is an arguably truer, redeeming rendering of BatB, or a revisitation of that theme--- which GRRM is interested in, Sansa/Sandor fans are correct about that, but I think it's foreshadowing a future arc for her. Surely all the BatB exploration is being set up for something big?

So how did I find Jonsa.... well, it was a consequence of reading the books lol, though I imagine many people would say the show was illuminating (which is no condemnation that antis think it is). My interest in the books was primarily piqued through the show's ending--- I came to things rather late, but I'm thankful for that, considering that it seems like some of the best fandom discourse has taken place since then. I was mostly interested in it for the purposes of comparison of adaptation, which I find very interesting, and because I find predicting endgames in general very fun albeit painful. I watch a lot of things just to see what my instinctual feeling is because I like practising my narrative divination. I like engaging with storytelling! But I do have a mechanical fascination with it as well. I think this motivated my sending an ask about Dune to both you and transdimensional-void, mostly because the thing that often leads me in the right direction is getting a 'feeling' for the tone of something--- sometimes even beyond pure narrative reasoning. Lol

You'd ordinarily think the show would be offputting to a Jonsa theory (and this is a major spanner in the works, although I do kind of only semi-ironically believe they paired Jon with D/aenerys because E/milia Clarke is shorter than Kit H/arrington, where S/ophie is too tall, which they couldn't have predicted before being informed about a potential Jonsa resolution--- when in doubt, assume stupidity) but Jonsa is also deliciously ironic and tragic even if redeemed through an actual marriage (and we have so many weddings, over and over, that a symbolic redemption of Rhaegar/Lyanna's wound is basically being begged for--- Lyanna is realised in many ways in the story, through both Arya and Sansa... but it makes sense they'd redeem two sides to Lyanna, the wild wolfgirl and the girl married to a dragon. The wound inflicted through Rhaegar's absconding with Lyanna has to be redeemed, whether that is positively or shirking the possibility of a Lyanna/Rhaegar union altogether, so the door is open for tragic Jonsa in my eyes. These types of narrative questions are what I look out for when predicting narrative resolutions and is what led to me to seriously consider Jonsa). I was meditating on this recently because people were asking whether Cat and Ned would approve, and the marriage is only possible because they're dead. A Jon/Sansa arrangement is only possible because they have lost the people they loved most, and perhaps--- like I've seen suggested!--- it might even drive Arya away. As a writer, that, to me, is how you make Ned and Catelyn's deaths in the story echo in a bittersweet way. It's good storytelling. It goes beyond 'and we re-enact the lessons of parents' which is the normal way you'd realise parental remembrance and legacy. And something tells me GRRM isn't interested in predictability. Unless you've read Gothic literature.

So, beyond Jonsa I'm very interested in the reasoning underpinning the show's derivations, and in my case I'm much more interested in Jonsa in the books than the show (that wasn't really what did it), though in the case of the show, I'm interested in where you can potentially see reflections of a book dynamic. But so much of the adaptation is muddied that it's hard to parse, and I'm really not sure how much of GRRM's suggestions they truly had versus what they stuck to. If they knew they needed 'a Jon romance', in the same way as they needed Robb to break his wedding pact with the Freys, but supplemented Talisa, what was motivating their decisionmaking? D/aenerys was the selling star of the show and basically the face of it, and the face of the merchandise and the cultural conversation etc. (which is why they made her death punishing--- the storytelling is so spiteful, and normally I'm a villain apologist through and through, but this case was particularly egregious) and it would seem silly not to give her a romance, because how can you write important female characters without romance? Now, I'm a perennial romance apologist, but the thinking here, to me, seems rather suspicious. So, I think what's special about ASOIAF right now is we've got a theoretical ending through the show, but where does that translate to the books? And where does the fandom get it wrong, and where do they get it right? The historic ubiquity of Sansa/Sandor, and many other fandom trends (e.g. D/aenerys is the rightful ruler, or tragic heroine, and so on) is kind of like honey to me, because all of those theories were completely blown out of the water by the show, but critically--- critically--- there's still room for expansion in the book for other directions. I was put off by simplistic interpretations of the books that floated around and when I read them the fandom characterisation, crossplatform, was actually shocking to me.

Since you asked--- and I'm terribly sorry--- I have a lot of feelings about when TWOW may or may not come out, not just because of anticipation, but because GRRM's authorial struggle is hard to watch through the eyes of fandom. The condemnation of his procrastination, his apparent carelessness--- that he 'took the money and ran'--- the hopelessness--- it's very hard to watch, and what I wonder is how he feels as a writer. Releasing TWOW will lead him into the final endgame, and he'll have to say goodbye to his magnum opus. That is very hard, beyond the show sailing ahead, and beyond anything else. It also gets to me in a personal way (which no one else can help!) because I am a writer trying to finish a long work, and I'm literally at the equivalent point GRRM is, and--- although he's a celebrated published author, and I'm writing for the sole joy of it--- I think that there is probably something fundamentally similar there, which is that holy fuck it's hard. It doesn't matter how much you know what you need to do, doing it is hard, and writing itself is actually an extremely difficult task. And by writing that means formulating ideas, as well as actual finger to DOS machine.

Writing sometimes is kind of like trying to paint a person, except you've never seen a human being before.

But I think that if GRRM is really committed to his bittersweet romanticism, he can pull off a goodbye, lol. And as much as I quibble with his narrative ethos and sometimes he makes me tear my hair out, I want to see him complete his work, because I think every single author deserves that. And because I think that at a minimum, for something like ASOIAF, the legacy of its ending ought to be his final say. I can't speak to his actual psyche but I do fully believe if he can publish TWOW, he can do ADOS. My observation is that TWOW is structurally much more difficult than ADOS, and I think that's one of many reasons he's been dragging his heels, long before the show caught up. Once he gets to the victory lap of ADOS, he will probably have both a professionally and emotionally easier time in terms of having to finish it. TWOW merges the split threads of AFFC and ADWD, whereas ADOS will only have to follow through (touch wood) on the one book, where many perspectives and their storylines will have converged--- at some point, we may have Sansa, Jon, and Brienne all unified! Which resolves character goals as well as being more economic with POV distribution. This is the angle I find very interesting because I think the way he uses character chapters to establish context and meaning beyond pure character is actually genius and rarely done so well in genre fiction, and I'm completely envious of it. (This is also why Jon/Sansa makes so much sense).

This is a terribly long ask so please don't feel the need to respond line by line, lol. I think I got a little excited! Having a positive fandom interaction is so nice. It's really weird that fandom has become such a polarised place (I mean, we had ship wars, but people kept to themselves more), and you're lucky Jonsa is your first fandom--- well, outside of the anti-Jonsas--- because I think it's a lovely place.

This goes for any Jonsa reading it: thank you all for literally keeping me sane. 🥰🥰🥰🥰 If I may ask, Esther, I think you've said that you came to Jonsa through the show then the books--- what drew you to Tumblr fandom? I'm always interested in how people find fandom!

Dune, anon! I'll tag @transdimensional-void because your convo about it did make me finally watch Dune (although I still don't think I'll read the book, sorry!), but the film was gorgeous. I didn't realize the director was Villeneuve. He always has very interesting projects and arresting visuals. Arrival was such a surprising take on an alien movie and it has really stayed with me. I think he has exquisite pacing, too.

Well now I’m even more concerned about the attempted doxing! Horrifying. The internet can be a wonderful thing, but I swear, it brings out the absolute worst in people.

I totally get what you mean about S*nsan seemingly being a BatB thing, but I’ve suggested before that it’s more in line with one of the old monster movies or even King Kong which love to pair something terrifying with a beautiful woman or little girl. It doesn’t mean romance, it’s the juxtaposition of extremes, raw power being stopped by beauty, violence being calmed by gentleness. There’s that line at the end of King Kong, “It was beauty killed the beast.” IMO, the beast and beauty idea is certainly there for the Hound and Sansa, I just don't think it's Disney's Beauty and the Beast. It's a highly romanticized idea, but not a romance in the way we use the term now.

My parents are both huge readers, not really into novels. My dad liked The Hobbit and LOTR tho, and got really into doing dramatic readings of those at bedtime for us kids. I remember The Hobbit the best because he’d make up tunes for all the songs and sing them. They’re very nostalgic for me, that love extends to the LOTR movies, but made it impossible for me to sit through the Hobbit adaptation. Anyway, I read a few sci fi and fantasy books, but I never really got into it. My little sister on the other hand luuuuurrrvs fantasy and she was the one who got me to watch GoT (I’d heard of the books, hadn’t read them) together, but then we ended up living in different states and she decided that it should be our thing to avoid spoilers and only watch the show when we got together. So, we were always running behind from that point on, but we made it through s5 that way. Eventually we just didn’t have the time to do that, and she was so disgusted with s5 she was happy to drop it completely--never watched another episode. I was too invested to stop, so I watched s6-7 myself and was simply appalled by the characterization of Jon. It made me get online for GoT content for the first time. This was in 2018. I saw that Martin gave interviews saying the show’s ending would be his ending, so I a) sped read the books, b) started listening to some of his interviews, c) saw the term “Jonsa” for the first time in the comments of one.

It took nothing to get me onboard because Jon and Sansa were my favorites, I really loved their scenes together, I hated everything after they separated in s7, and I read a lot of 19th century lit as a teenager, so cousin marriage didn't even strike me as weird in the historical context. I can't remember which meta it was I read first, one of Fedon's or blindestspot's prediction of a Jonsa reunion and marriage from 2013, but I got on tumblr and was totally sucked into the fandom.

“I do kind of only semi-ironically believe they paired Jon with D/aenerys because E/milia Clarke is shorter than Kit H/arrington, where S/ophie is too tall”  — I’m screaming. D&D @ Kit: "Sorry buddy, if you didn’t want your character to fall in love with a mass murdering tyrant you should have kept growing." lmaooooo.

“Jonsa is also deliciously ironic and tragic even if redeemed through an actual marriage (and we have so many weddings, over and over, that a symbolic redemption of Rhaegar/Lyanna's wound is basically being begged for--- Lyanna is realised in many ways in the story, through both Arya and Sansa... but it makes sense they'd redeem two sides to Lyanna, the wild wolfgirl and the girl married to a dragon. The wound inflicted through Rhaegar's absconding with Lyanna has to be redeemed, whether that is positively or shirking the possibility of a Lyanna/Rhaegar union altogether, so the door is open for tragic Jonsa in my eyes.” --You put this so beautifully. I wish you'd get a side blog and post that in the Jonsa tag, I love it!

One of the major puzzles to me is how the fandom all know just how much the text talks to itself, it's notably self-referential, so the way they dismiss the idea of Rhaegar's son and a Stark girl romance...I have a really hard time believing they don't see the logic there, how it would bring things full circle. The way they treat S*nsan as "practically canon" while calling Jonsa a crack ship when we have that hanging over our heads is a little incomprehensible.

“I was meditating on this recently because people were asking whether Cat and Ned would approve, and the marriage is only possible because they're dead. A Jon/Sansa arrangement is only possible because they have lost the people they loved most, and perhaps--- like I've seen suggested!--- it might even drive Arya away.” --I agree with this too. I am very struck by how NedCat, some of the best people and one of the best relationships Martin offers, has this pain and tragedy written into their love. That's a big reason why I can't quite get on board with an easy resolution to Jonsa, because Martin is just drawn to conflict which is why his characters and story is so compelling, but also makes me think, there will be layers to Jonsa, some real pain there.

“And something tells me GRRM isn't interested in predictability. Unless you've read Gothic literature.” — I once posted a list of gothic lit tropes and he’s included all of them. But Gothic heavily influenced horror, and ASOIAF has horror elements, so that isn't totally surprising when you think about it. It still amuses me though!

It’s definitely a real struggle to see the sense behind D&D’s choices but when I was reading an interview looking for a specific quote, I did see that even in 2011 Martin was saying he knew the endgames, which is a) comforting for Sansa ending up safely in Winterfell purposes, b) reassuring for Dark Dany believers, c) hilarious when you think about how many people are still pissed about Arya and Bran’s fates. And Jon? Well, I’ve made my peace with a tragic ending (although I’ve mocked it a great deal too because I can't see how it works), but we all know they fucked him over the most in s7-8, so I could also see D&D trashing what his ending was meant to be in favor of catering to Targ fans. Apparently Emilia has recently reiterated her frustration that Jon “got away” with killing Dany, so like…imagine the rage if he’d killed Dany and then got a HEA in Winterfell. 

My feeling is that Martin told them Jon would kill Dany and they chose to do "the romance" (which imo, they didn't like because the way they wrote and filmed it and permitted Kit to act it just...sabotaged it in every way imaginable) to make it more palatable to her fans who ate it up. They actually are comforted that Jon "loved" Dany and after s8 dropped pics/gifs of him cradling her dead body into our tag bragging that he loved her. Like, D&D made really crappy choices, but I think it was about manhandling their audience while hitting Martin's plot points they knew the Targ fans would hate, not a result of them throwing out the endgames.

“ The condemnation of his procrastination, his apparent carelessness--- that he 'took the money and ran' --I’m not a Martin defender, I have real reservations with some of his choices, but I have family his age and do try to think of him as a person. I find a lot of how people speak of him...well, I have no issue with people being frustrated we don't have TWOW considering how long ago he said he'd finish it (like, back in 2016) and how often since then he's indicated getting close to the end only for it to then sound like he's quite a ways away. As long as people don't harass him, I don't think it's an issue to talk about this in fandom spaces. However, they often sound ignorant of what it takes to write something like ASOIAF, with all the levels he's trying to work on. Also, his writing style sounds like a total nightmare? The idea of tearing things up to fix them seems hopeless to me, and he’s talked about doing this repeatedly—it would be so hard to finish a chapter or several and then realize, nope, gotta rework all of it.

“because I am a writer trying to finish a long work, and I'm literally at the equivalent point GRRM is, and--- although he's a celebrated published author, and I'm writing for the sole joy of it--- I think that there is probably something fundamentally similar there, which is that holy fuck it's hard.” --Oh ho ho! Well, you know that’s gonna make me have all sorts of questions, so if you want to tell me about your work (genre, tome or series, influences, themes etc) I am all ears, but I also know some writers have to keep all that to themselves until they’re done so I won’t pry. Although, because of our exchanges, I would be interested in how you use romance in your own writing.

“writing itself is actually an extremely difficult task” // “Writing sometimes is kind of like trying to paint a person, except you've never seen a human being before.” —dead! I think the issue is, many people don’t distinguish between types of writing? So someone doesn’t distinguish between the goal and what say, a modern romance is attempting to accomplish versus a Jane Austen novel. They might end the evaluation at "like or didn't" and not grasp what all goes into different types of novels, their individual successes or failures, and why some novelists can complete multiple novels in a year, another might spend a few years on one. I think about this a lot when I see people suggest Martin get some ghost writers, and like, this man isn’t churning out genre fiction (which I love, I was a snob as a teen and cured myself, but it is an entirely different kind of writing!), so it's just...a lot of fans totally misjudge the effort required and how easily replicated the work would be.

“I think that at a minimum, for something like ASOIAF, the legacy of its ending ought to be his final say” --I find it incredibly sad every year that goes by and the chance of him completing his series dwindles. People forget that what holds sway over a culture doesn’t always have staying power and a) I think his work is doomed to being forever misinterpreted unless he finishes and b) I don’t think he’ll have accomplished what he wanted to regarding elevating fantasy / getting it the respect he believes it deserves unless he gets to that ending. It's a shame.

I enjoyed reading all your thoughts on Jonsa, the ideas it touches on and how GoT/ASOIAF might differ. Thank you!

[marietheran-archived]

Coming in late, but how about Finnick, Jonathan Harker, Halt from Ranger's Apprentice, and Galadriel for the Character Bingo, please?

Thanks a lot for the ask! It's not late at all, in fact it's still open, haha. At your service:

Finnick:

Hmm... so, I like him, but while I know he's the Blorbo Ultimate for a lot of people, I don't think I would call him mine. I get why people adore him so much; he does share some characteristics with my favourite blorbos of all time.. maybe it's just that while I'm interested in the Hunger Games, I don't love this franchise as much as people seem to.

And, maybe I'm wrong, but I do feel like the fandom kind of reduces him to a pure sunshine boy™, and though there's nothing wrong with this kind of character, I don't think it's plausible to portray Finnick like that. He's had to win the Hunger Games somehow. He's killed people - at fourteen! - he's been forced to participate in this horror as a mentor - if he's got strong principles, his conscience must torment him. And then, of course, the prostitution thing. He's not 100% good cheer.

(I've heard about someone headcanoning him as Catholic - Irish name, etc - and I love this idea, but that would make him even more conflicted)

Of course, I have to add an obligatory expression of annoyance at the way he was killed. It made no sense and somehow the surrounding characters had zero emotional reaction to it.

If I'm allowed to have another quibble with the text I hate the way he was introduced. I get that the author wanted his actual good character to come as a surprise, but it was gross.

Jonathan:

I don't really have much to say except *general positive feelings*. (I feel like he might even qualify as a Blorbo!)

He's excellent husband material and he's never done anything wrong in his life - except, this applies to both those things - when he said he could become a vampire for Mina. Jonathan, no! I'm sure Mina would prefer you to have a strong moral backbone regardless of her own state.

Halt:

It feels very much a disservice to consider Halt (or anyone in these books) apart from the other characters. They're very much the most interesting together, especially when you consider the humour of the banter.

However, I will say I find his backstory incredibly cool actually. It seems like it got invented pretty late into the series, but actually I think his character fits someone who was raised as nobility (into the "noble" kind of noble, and not the "pampered" kind), but hasn't been leading this life for a while, and has experienced assassination attempts from close family members. I do wonder what his relationship with his sister was like.

I must admit I'm partial to the common headcanon of him as autistic, although, as always with this sort of thing, I'm a bit bothered by the fact that a character may have some autistic traits, but never the less "aesthetic" ones, so

Galadriel:

Tolkien characters, my beloveds! (with the very strong exception of the darksiders, of course)

Anyway, Galadriel/Artanis!

She's not my favourite out of all Legendarium figures (mostly because all of my blorbos come from there), but I like her a lot, especially when you take into account all the Silm stuff, and look at her role in LotR through that lens. It's tragic, to be honest. She's the only one left. Out of 15 grandchildren of Finwë. And she lives in this delightful (to consider - not to experience) state of being caught between homesickness and pride, ambition and regret.

I strongly dislike Tolkien's later attempts to smoothen her out, to make her so perfect - she never really struck me as a Marian figure; there are Marian figures in the legendarium, but Galadriel isn't one. Her Silm backstory is everything it should be.

I also dislike the theory that she was specifically banned from returning to Valinor. It's way more interesting when it's a "no" said in pride, in the wish to be a queen and not a subject, to be one of the most powerful and not one of the less - a "no" that she may come to halfway regret but believes is an irrevocable choice - or is hesitant to take back.

I find an interpretation that takes into account her more complicated characteristics like the fact that she is willing to cover for murderers really worthwhile. The fact that she starts off as the very skilled youngest child of a youngest child of a king, with ambitions and little way to be taken seriously until disaster strikes... chef's kiss.

I eternally loathe the movies' interpretation of her (and of the other elves, though it's most visible in her). Cate Blanchett seems so cold, even when she's trying to seem warm. They went for "otherworldly" and forgot elves are at the same time just as, if not more, grounded as men are.

Sorry if you expected a more LotR-centered take though, I'm afraid the Silm is firmly holding my mind hostage.

[roguepen]

I was asked to compile some fanfic recs and I've decided to put some out for you all to read at your leisure. It's mainly Harry Potter - because the fandom took full control there - and I'm recommending other fics from mostly smaller fandoms as well. I don't think you need to read the source material to enjoy most of these.

Under the cut!

Harry Potter

The Secret Diary of Hugo Granger-Weasley, Aged Thirteen and a Half - by FloreatCastellum

The Quest to Find 12 Ways to Charm Witches - by FloreatCastellum

A Brief History of Red Telephone Boxes - by FloreatCastellum

She has written my one true headcannon for Hugo Weasley in three fics - he's a menace, he's unintentionally hilarious and just the perfect combination of Ron and Hermione and the take on the Adrien Mole novels is sheer perfection. All of her work is great and stand out on their own merits - but I come back to these when I need a really good laugh because she really understands those awkward early teen years so well.

FloreatCastellum has retired from fanfiction to pursue original works, but her backlog is extensive, interesting and engaging. Her tumblr is still active and going through her asks is a treat into examining her though processes and clarifying some details. You can find the tumblr here @floreatcastellumposts

Order of Mercy - by MandyinKC

I'm very past due to reread this - she started posting this on FFN when I was teaching in South Korea and I remember reading the updates in the evening before bed. It's a fantastic take on another prospective on the last book and probably did play a part in my own writing. This is one of the best takes on an alternate prospective of Deathly Hallows from the shared prospectives of Bill, Fleur, Percy and Audrey as they form their own small resistance group.

Irrational - by RonsGirlFriday (aka @constitutionalweasleymonarchy on this hellsite)

This is the fic that made me appreciate the first person prospective and showed me what kind of strong character voice that can offer. The way Audrey is written here is fantastic, she's quiet, observant and is going through her very quiet life as it begins to shift through meeting new people. The story is not overwhelmed by an intense narrative, it's a quiet day to day sort of story. This is one of the primary inspirations for the POV for One for Sorrow and its early tone before the madness set in. I will drop everything I'm doing if I get word of an update or new publication.

Oo0Oo0

Bridgerton

a most assured bliss - by starkswinterfelling

I know this fandom has taken off in recent years and has a lot of good fics, I don't have time to go through them all these days but I can recommend this one with confidence as a long, extended epilogue to book 3 of the series from the prospective of the elderly housekeeper as she ends up in a web of well-meaning secrets between her employers. It's very well written, very funny and a reminder that all secrets come out eventually.

Oo0Oo0

Daddy Long Legs - Jean Webster

Dear Mr. Ben E. Factor - by orphan_account

This is one of the finest epistolary novels. It's short and covers about four years of Judy Abbott's life as a college student paid for by an unknown benefactor. This book is a product of its times in regards to race and class politics of the era. If that's not something you want to go through, that's fine, some kind soul has rewritten the novel for modern sensibilities and has lost none of what made the original novel so endearing.

Oo0Oo0

Lord of the Rings - JRR Tolkien

The Abduction of Éomer, King of Rohan - by Lialathuveril

The author is now self publishing and I recommend all the work on her page. This is one of the stories I made sure to save in case FFN ever truly dies - it's funny, well written and a slightly insane concept that just works.

Oo0Oo0

Beauty and the Beast

Honey, You're Familiar (Like My Mirror Years Ago) - by hester_latterly

No words for this modern Beauty and the Beast AU. It's well written, engaging and a character study in the guise of... I just don't want to say modern fairy tale, because it's a good definition, but it's ultimately a story about two lonely people coming together. Unfinished, but great!