#but also there IS a way that the fandom will treat male characters as inherently complex

[fauxnotice]

crazy how alien stage would have never gotten such a big fanbase if ivtl didnt exist. Not because its that good or better than mzsu but because no matter how you look at it female characters will never be treated the same way male characters are and the same applies to f/f ships. Like yes fandoms have mostly (not entirely though!) moved away from the trope of portraying women as nuisances that get in the way of gay relationships but now we have a new brand of misogyny that is much more subtle. and if you even IMPLY that some internal bias is the root of the way fandoms treat female characters youre looking too hard and youre too woke. Whatever

[margridarnauds]

Reading Hazbin meta is weird because it's like "Here's a ten paragraph analysis of why Adam secretly drinks Respect Women juice despite telling Charlie that she should stay in her place, fetishizing her relationship with Vaggie, and overall acting like a stereotypical frat bro" and then "Anyway, Lilith's a bitch (and so's Eve)"

[moth-tea-merchant]

Me, rambling about Peitha? It's more likely then you thing!

[ft. a talk about the way tumblr treats female characters]

kinda outta nowhere post, tho this came back to my mind bcs of the small conversation around the way female characters are treated and viewed on gw2 Tumblr. Fair warning I am not planing to try and surge coat my words here, apologies if I will be coming off as harsh, blunt or accusatory but I wish to make my opinions and my experience clear. While this no longer affects my mood and enjoyment as much as it did when the "conversation" was fresh. I am still very disappointed in the fandom/community for jumping onto take/narrative that Peitha is and was just "generic sexy demon woman and just fan service" listen, I have 0 issues with the sentiment and opinions of wishing she had looked more like her brothers. That isn't an unreasonable want to have had. However [while I wont be naming names bcs it wasn't ever one person] it seems many people took that as an opportunity and excuse to tare down and insult any of her feminine appearance. "she has lip enhancements" "She has curves" "They gave her eyelashes even tho she has no hair" "they textured her ass that way for the men" All of these are things I've seen said. And I simply want to ask, why are these bad things? Why is the fact Peitha has the illusion of curves, a more full upper lip, modeled yet subtle lashes, and a juicy ass covered by a flesh skirt bad things or inherently sexual? Why do they deem her design fan service/generic sexy demon woman?

Why is it that having physically feminine traits deems a female character inherently sexual and negative?

The one thing you can point to with her and deem making her character come off sexual/sensual is the way she talks and some of her comments that can come off as flirting. And if that's something that bothers you then that's okay, that's a valid feeling. You don't have to like Peitha, or love her design, but you also don't need to try justifying it by writing off her design as "just fan service, male gaze, generic sexy demon woman"

I think one of the greater underlying issues that these takes came from is the way some people seem to think that when they voice their want for more masculine or monsters looking female characters, they must also in the same breath condemn the female characters that don't fit that want. Maybe its bcs I'm a dyke and in the lesbian community, but we can bring up and apprentice the validity of masc presenting women without taring down femme presenting woman. The whole point is that both are equal in the way of being a woman one is not inherently superior to the other.

With that said I want it to be clear I hold no resentment or grudges against the people who participated those conversations. Neither do I look down on them. I simply wish for people to really think on: Why they see Peitha's feminine features as inherently sexual and negative.

That is all, back to your regularly scheduled bull shittery ✌️👋

[vulpes115]

Okay, so I have thoughts about a lot of the recent Jegulus vs. Jily discourse. Most of them aren’t bringing anything new so I’ll keep them to myself (Though I will add a Jegulus shipper, I believe that the Jily anons that have been sending death threats and other similar messages need to chill out, find some hobbies, maybe read some good Jily fics, and most importantly, stop sending death threats to people—mostly queer minors—who ship a fairly basic grumpy x sunshine pairing). However, the part I do want to weigh in on is the Marauders fandom and misogyny.

I will admit that this fandom has a problem with how we treat our female characters. We give our male characters a lot of depth and nuance, allowing them to be flawed and focusing heavily on their trauma. In contrast, many modern MLM-dominated fandoms, in an effort not to be deemed sexist, place all their female characters in the same "flawless, sarcastic, badass lesbian queen who rolls her eyes at all the boys' relationship drama while having her own much less dramatic sapphic storyline" role. The Marauders fandom is 100% guilty of this, and we need to address it.

Let the girls be messy. Let them make mistakes. Let them have their own ridiculous, adorable, and even scandalous relationship drama. Let them have heartbreaking, tragic storylines just like the boys do. Most importantly, let the girls have their own spotlight. They are all interesting characters with a lot of potential if given the chance.

However, I feel some of the arguments about misogyny in the Marauders fandom have lost the plot. For example, claims that Jegulus fics are reducing Lily to a surrogate are not entirely accurate. Only two Jegulus fics are specifically tagged with "surrogate Lily Evans," and only 114 (7% of the total Jegulus fics) involve them raising Harry—most Jegulus fics do not include him. Moreover, quite a few of those fics involve split custody with Lily and either Pandora or Mary. Jegulus fans are not bashing Lily; only 29 Jegulus fics are tagged with Lily Evans bashing, compared to 165 Jily fics with similar tags. Most Jegulus fans actually love Lily. Strawman arguments like these won't help; they only prompt Jegulus fans to think, "Well, I don’t do THAT," without critically examining how they treat their female characters or addressing other areas of concern.

Jegulus is not inherently misogynistic. It can be if you sideline Lily, but as long as you give Lily attention and make her a nuanced character—which many Jegulus fics do, like Crimson Rivers—there’s no real problem. Similarly, Jily is not inherently feminist. Sure it does help to give Lily the spotlight as one half of the main ship, especially since James is such a devoted malewife. However insisting that Lily needs to be in a relationship with James or be Harry’s mother can be misogynistic because it implies that female characters are only valuable in relation to the men in their lives. Given that canon, influenced by JKR’s misogyny, struggled to develop Lily beyond a flawless woman loved by both James and Snape who sacrificed her life for her son, as all good women should. Also Lily doesn’t need James to be happy and in love, ships like PandaLily and MaryLily are really good underrated and cute ships that come with new ways to flesh out Lily’s character and spotlight female characters more.

Also, since I mentioned Pandora and Mary, it's worth noting that when Jily shippers bring up misogyny in the fandom, they often use it more as a gotcha against Jegulus shippers, seeking moral high ground. They don't genuinely care about misogyny in the fandom; they’re more concerned that Lily no longer receives the same attention she once did. Lily seems to be the only girl many of them care about, often only in relation to Jily. Many don’t show the same interest in Mary, Marlene, Pandora, Dorcas, or the Black sisters. Lily is the only girl who truly matters to them, and even then, it's mostly in the context of Jily.

[magpod-confessions]

also??? i really really hate when people say that helen to michael was a 'downgrade'. do you understand the whole point of the character.

obviously, no one *has* to enjoy helen. but it's this overwhelmjng majority of the fandom that sees michael as an inherently better character that really ticks me off.

helen is funnier, more engaged with the rest of the characters, *present for more of the podcast*, etc. michael is ... he's there. he has a cool laugh. that's about it.

i *know* it has something to do with helen being a woman, and a woman who is often depicted as black as well. it's ... it really subs me the wrong way.

there are so many things about the fandom that aren't *explicitly* racist/sexist/transphobic/etc. but you can tell that it comes from preexisting societal biases. and then i'm told that i'm reading into it too far when i point it out!!

🗣️ (all of my asks are open to responses i love discussing things)

Yeaaa agreed with this. While I do think Michael is an interesting and relatable character for some ppl, I do also think considering it as a superior version to helen is rly weird! A decent amount of stuff I see in this fandom is 'I dont hate this character I just hate how they treat the male character or how they are in relation to the male character' which is rly off to me. Idk

[secret-shipping-society]

"People in fandom NEED to confront their hatred of female characters-" no. No one in fandom owes you anything (except common decency, but if you yourself can't be decent, you can't complain if people are rude to you).

There is a place for discussions, but when you start every discussion with a lit match and treat it like starting a fire, it becomes more of a way to judge people who don't share your viewpoint. Is there a discussion to have about women in media being shunned for the same things that men are praised for? Yes! But if you start it off by insulting others, by accusing them of being inherently misogynistic, by being angry and yelling, no one is going to respond calmly.

There are discussions to be had, but you can hardly claim you shouting is an attempt to start a discussion.

So, what can you do instead?

"Hey, I just think it's weird that [female character] gets constantly put down while [male character] is adored despite both doing the same things. Has anyone else noticed that? If you prefer [male character] but dislike [female character], could you tell me why?" See how different that reads? Because you're not going in, guns ablazing and yelling at people who may have not realized those inner biases.

Plus sometimes with this specific complaint, people will compare two characters from completely different fandoms, and I feel like that's disingenuous. Obviously different fandoms will treat characters differently.

ALSO there's a big pushback against men in fandom being able to find fictional women attractive. While women in fandom are encouraged to horny post about male villains, every time a man does, he's called "gross" and accused of "objectifying women". There's generally hatred towards men in fandom spaces and as a guy, it really puts me off from reminding people I'm a guy. Because suddenly, me going "[woman villain] is so pretty" is treated like me harassing a real life woman.

Idk I just think that some of the "women in media are disliked!!!" Claims would be alleviated if we didn't push men out of fandom so quickly. 🤷

[saintsenara]

if you are still doing ship game, thoughts on jily?

thank you very much, anon - i am always taking questions both on romantic ships and on characters' platonic vibes, the more unhinged the better.

although jily can't really be described in those terms, not least because their narrative purpose in canon is to be little more than blank canvases onto which harry can project as he goes through his series-long character arc, shedding his initial hero worship of james when confronted with the reality of his father's behaviour in order of the phoenix and starting both to fully appreciate lily's centrality to the course his life is taking and to see his dad with nuance as a real and fully-rounded person, flaws and all.

this narrative role means that the glimpses we get of them in canon feel kind of superficial - their bantering during snape's worst memory is basically high-school-teen-movie level, the snapshots of their life under lockdown in deathly hallows lovely and bittersweet but also just colour to a storyline which is already all of those things.

and this is not to say that i find jily uninteresting as a ship - i completely reject the common anti-jily position that they didn't really like each other, that they had nothing in common, or that their backgrounds made them incompatible [i'll expand on this below, but while i do think that their respective blood statuses and the impact of these on their relationship are worth thinking about, i loathe fics which portray james as chafing against his marriage because, as a pureblood, he'd be more comfortable with someone 'of his own kind'. this is bullshit, and there's far, far too much of it in this fandom]. my views on one of james' most frequent non-lily partnerships are well known, and i share the outrage many jily fans have for the way lily in particular is treated in a subfandom increasingly dominated by rigid fanon which prioritises giving depth to male characters [even if those characters are, in essence, oc's] and slash relationships over exploring the canon female characters, partnered or not.

but i do also find that a lot of jily falls into the same trap as much of the hinny i dislike - that is, a tendency to present as a sunshine-and-roses fairytale a relationship which is much more interesting if the things which canon implies [and which can be reasonably inferred outside of canon scenes from a canon coherent engagement with the text] might have introduced an element of dysfunction into james and lily's partnership are taken into account.

the shadow of the war is obviously one of these things. what role lily actually plays in the resistance is something which preoccupies me [she is never mentioned in canon to have taken a combat role - and i find it considerably more plausible that any attempt voldemort made to recruit her was at snape's request and connected to her potions prowess] particularly because, as we see in the way her death is memorialised in deathly hallows, the series regards the defence of the integrity of the nuclear family as a key aim for the good guys. how does she interact with james and his wartime role when she's pregnant, nursing, or in hiding for the vast majority of her time in the order? how does she feel about her husband being a soldier if she's behind the scenes?

indeed, what role james [and sirius] plays in the order is also something i'm obsessed with thinking about - not least because so much of the inherent tragedy of the marauders' storyline is caused by the fact that james and sirius think they're fucking invincible and that their plans to keep the potters safe are foolproof. it's entirely reasonable to read james and sirius as being pretty gung-ho about being paramilitaries - and my headcanon is absolutely that more battled-hardened order members didn't like them very much [moody does not, after all, seem massively fond of sirius] - and lily seems affected by this too [she's not holding her wand either!], and what they thought they were doing as 1981 rolls around is compelling to me.

james and lily's divergent backgrounds is also something i'd like to see explored more in fandom - not, as i've said, in the dull 'james should have married a pureblood' way, but in a way which deals with the fact that their relationship follows wizarding norms. molly weasley can blame the war all she likes, but [although i doubt this was jkr's intention] the evidence of canon is that witches and wizards marry and have children extremely young as a social standard, that couples generally don't live together before marriage, that divorce doesn't seem to be common, and that married women tend not to work. lily - a mother at twenty and, therefore, presumably married at nineteen - is coming of age, then, in a magical world which thinks about gender very differently from the muggle world of the 1970s, and i think that tension is worth exploring.

[similarly, the way in which her marriage is self-protective - lily gains a pureblood name and the social cachet which comes with it at a time when she's in rising danger on account of her birth - is something i think it's worth looking at when considering the pairing.]

there are other flashes of dysfuntion which i adore thinking about in relation to jily - lily's relationship with the other marauders [you can pry the reading that sirius resents her for stealing the love of his life - and i certainly don't mean lupin - away from him from my cold, dead hands]; how much of his misbehaviour at school james conceals from her; the fact that lily becoming more overtly interested in james from her sixth year onward must have a little bit of attempting to make snape jealous mixed into it - and whenever i stumble upon them in fics i say oh ho like horace slughorn and kick my little feet in the air.

i care rather less about 'we're so hot and flawless and not doomed' as a trope.

but i do stan james for beefing with vernon dursley even though lily told him to behave. the man really is just that annoying.

[olderthannetfic]

https://www.tumblr.com/olderthannetfic/753405110589259776/note-spoilers-on-this-ask-for-anyone-who-hasnt

I’m this anon, and using your anon box to reply to a bad take in the reblogs of it lol.

1. aO3 treats the show and book series as separate fandoms for Bridgerton. My friend’s genderbend fic though is based on the books — thought I made that clear here. And yes book fans were being genuinely homophobic in her comments, not just her interpreting them not shipping it as “homophobia.” It was full of “get out of OUR tag” and claiming just writing a female character in a male version or shipping her male love interest with a guy was “misogyny,” exactly as I said. It’s a huge problem in the fandom. The main Reddit sub is so full of homophobia that queer fans had to spin out a separate inclusive sub called r/bridgertonlgbt. I’ve heard of people on TikTok being called “bourgeois degenerate” and “groomer” just for questioning why it’s supposedly such a dramatic and horrible change to make Michael into Michaela in the show.

2. Can we finally fucking retire the really tired, knee jerk “book is always better” attitude that has never been universally true anyway lol. The books Bridgerton are based on are pretty middling het histrom that repeat plots so much between them that that’s one of the big changes the show has had to make — just not have seasons 1 and 2 follow the same plot beats like books 1 and 2 did. The show has had to make a lot of changes just because it has a bigger audience than your average het histrom reader and while I haven’t loved every shift, it is overall better for it. Or just like, focusing on more than just each season’s main couple like the books only do — also better! The subplots are some of the most fun parts of that show, but also, it makes sense that people are going to continue to want to follow their favs from season to season and not just zero in on each couple. Yes I’ve read all the books. They simply are just not that great, TV is a different medium than books anyway and so certain changes are necessary, and frankly most of the loudest parts of the “book fandom” online who complain about the changes are people who read the books because of the show anyway. They’re all wildly inconsistent in what they consider acceptable changes: they’re largely on board with making the universally white books more racially diverse, but not adding queerness and gender diversity. Why is one ok but not another? Especially when a lot of them are ok with sad or bittersweet queer stories in subplots like Brimsley’s but not happy stories for main characters. Why is that, I wonder? A lot of people are pretending to be “book snobs” as a mask for bigotry, or just have bad taste, but regardless I think we need to get over the idea that stalwart defense of some mediocre and overly tropey romance novels is more elevated or intellectual and like the show isn’t an improvement in being less lazy about the cliches of that genre than the original author. (Seriously, I read a lot of romance novels, so this is not a knock on the genre as a whole or its readers — but the Bridgerton books are SO lazy and SO repetitive. Honestly I think a lot of the book defenders need to read more histrom themselves. Then maybe they’d see how weak and lazy those books can be compared to what else is out there.)

Fandom please learn basic things about how adaptation between different mediums works 2k24 also stop assuming that consuming a story in text form over another is an inherently intellectual activity

--

A pretentious friend of mine who loves Shonda Rhimes was going on at me a while ago about how she ~always reads the book first~ and then waiting for applause as if that's unusual!

She then tried to launch into how shocked she was by the books being... well, lowbrow trash, but she had some complex and boring way of explaining this.

I was like "Honey, you do know what a regency romance novel is, right? Right?!"

I mean, there are adaptations that are nearly exactly like the middle tier of romance novels. They're movie length and they air on Lifetime. This was a change not only of medium but of overall target audience and vibe.

[genderkoolaid]

okay, so, i keep seeing this take come up a lot from non-trans men and non-trans mascs, and it’s making me a bit uncomfortable. for background, i’m a trans man that writes smut for trans mascs, trans men, and non-binary folks. i write in fandom spaces so this is a strictly fandom basis and not irl basis

more and more often i keep seeing non trans men and non trans mascs saying “if you think mpreg is gross you’re just transphobic” without nuance and when i explain “hey, this maybe isn’t a good take to have since there’s a LOT of reasons people may be grossed out by mpreg (eg. dysphoria, how heavily fetishized it is in fandom spaces by non-trans writers, how it’s used to fetishize trans m characters, the person grossed out may be a closeted trans man or trans masc or don’t realize that the “gross” feeling is dysphoria, etc.)”, i get shouted down and told that i’m wrong. and it’s kind of making me question my own line of thinking.

i guess, i’m just looking for some perspective from trans men and trans mascs on this topic? if there is any? bc i honestly can’t tell if i’m having a knee jerk reaction to my own personal experiences with fetishization. idk if you do much with fandom spaces, but i also don’t really know where else to get perspective

I think there's an important difference between different interpretations of "finding mpreg gross." One interpretation is male pregnancy being a squick for people as individuals for a variety of reasons, such as dysphoria. But in the context of systemic transandrophobia, "gross" is describing the idea that male pregnancy is an obscene, disturbing fetish akin to guro, something that is objectively abnormal and inappropriate.

The reason why "mpreg is gross" is transphobic is because its based in the idea that a pregnant man is unnatural and wrong, and that pregnant men can only exist as a "fucked up" sexual fetish. People are incapable of being normal about male pregnancy in any context and will compulsively go "EWW mpreg is so weird and fucked up!!! is this omegaverse!!!" even when talking about real men's experiences or desires. Male pregnancy is seen as a joke, a kink, or a crime against nature, but never something normal, natural, neutral.

Feeling dysphoria around pregnancy for yourself isn't transphobic, and people can write/depict male pregnancy in ways that are uncomfortable. Personally, I don't like how a lot of people's first thought when it comes to male pregnancy is cis men getting pregnant, with trans men- men who can and do actually get pregnant- are an afterthought. Its annoying to see posts joking about "getting a man pregnant" where people immediately jump to "cis male mpreg," distancing transmascs from our own bodies' abilities & replacing us in the cultural mind with cis men. I don't think cis male mpreg is inherently bad, but there are valid criticisms to be made.

And while you are just talking about fandom stuff, I don't think we should entirely separate this from the wider treatment of pregnant men- who are constantly dehumanized irl, treated like walking freaks (I was just reading an article the other day where a trans father talked about being called "it" throughout his pregnancy, and this is not uncommon), and having their gender validity heavily scrutinized for using their "female anatomy" even though they "want to be a man," sometimes even from other trans people. The way mpreg is treated in fandom spaces does very little to counter this narrative- if anything, in my experience, it just adds that "dirty" connotation, where pregnant men aren't just freaks, their pregnancy must be inherently sexual and should be kept out of public spaces. And this really does not help the idea that trans people are groomers who shouldn't be around children- I have also seen transphobes fearmonger about transmasc fathers & their children & whether or not the children will be safe, or be able to grow up properly, or if they'll be traumatized because of their father.

This is all to say: I don't know exactly the contexts you've heard "saying mpreg is gross is transphobic" in, but to me, arguing against "mpreg = gross" is a necessary part of dealing with the objectifying & dehumanizing way we see male pregnancy discussed in fandom spaces. Male pregnancy should be just the same as female pregnancy. Its normal, its natural. Some people have fetishes relating to it. Some people are really disturbed by the idea of it happening to them. & while there are unique brands of misogyny directed at pregnant women, the image of a pregnant woman isn't treated like something inherently dirty and obscene the same way a pregnant man is. People finding male pregnancy strange or gross- not because of dysphoria or personal preference, but out of transandrophobia- is the status quo right now, and its important to counteract this by normalizing male pregnancy as A Thing Some Men Do.

[aihoshiino]

Hey there! I love your OnK posts especially about Ai so I wanted to ask you something that's been on my mind this week. Do you think she was "fridged" just for shock value? I've heard people call it that because of how it starts Aqua's revenge quest and I was curious how others saw it. Would love to hear your thoughts!

anon can i just say. not calling you out but the thing about being active in other parts of the fandom outside tumblr means i will get asks like this sometimes and immediately know which post on the subreddit I am being asked to indirectly reply to. again, not calling you out, but i did read this ask with a strong sense of like;

but anyway, to actually answer your question: No, I don't think Ai was fridged and I think that anyone passionately insisting she was has a fundamental misunderstanding of what purpose her death serves in her own arc and that of others and also just… what fridging even is as a concept. I've commented on this before and basically summed up my thoughts as best I could so lemme grab that old comment of mine.

Fridging implies a certain disposability and lack of care for the woman at the center of things. It's sort of drifted and gotten muddled because of misuse in modern discourse like the term 'Mary Sue', but as it was coined, it was specifically, explicitly both observation and critique of how female characters are treated in fiction primarily centered on men: the ways in which they are treated as uniquely disposable, their interiority as less full and complex, their stories as less valuable and their tragedies as inherently unworthy of exploration and interrogation. The term literally originates from the phrase 'women in refrigerators' which itself was coined by Gail Simone in reference to the trend in American superhero comics of gratuitously brutalizing, sexually assaulting or killing specifically female characters for the sole purpose of spurring the protective instincts of their male counterparts. While it's true that Ai's death spurs Aqua's revenge arc, it is also the very explicit capstone to Ai's own character arc that she goes on over the course of the prologue arc and her life in general. It is the textual manifestation of something that exists in subtext: that being an idol and growing up in the entertainment industry has robbed Ai of the opportunity to have a normal life. It makes pitch perfect thematic sense for this idea to climax in an embodiment of the misogyny, purity culture and fan entitlement that has caused her so much pain to make that idea literal in bringing an end to Ai's actual life. On top of that, Ai's actual death scene is entirely about her: it takes place entirely from her POV, centers her feelings and pain and resolves her character arc and the two most important relationships to her. The manga even frames the scene in such a way that Ai's own thoughts and feelings drown out and crowd out the most bloody and shocking moments, spending page time that could be used on goggling at the spectacle of her pain instead on forcing the reader to look at her heart and understand her. Rather than focus on her bodily agony, up until the last moment, Ai's death is about her strengths, her flaws and the absolute purity of her love. From there, interrogating the tragedy of her life and death is the entire driving force of Oshi no Ko's narrative. Ai touches and contextualizes every character's story; her legacy is the light that every one else chases while standing in her shadow. She's the beating, bleeding heart of almost every emotional beat. Almost every arc involves her, directly or indirectly, and the current arc of the manga is built explicitly on the idea of understanding and empathizing with Ai as a person and trying to honor her wishes even though she's gone. So no, I don't agree that she was fridged and I think it's reductive to try and make that call entirely off the first episode. As someone who has spent the better portion of the year having a cognitive energy dedicated to this character that surely makes me in some way mentally unwell, I think her death is so incredibly, miserably satisfying as the capstone of her arc and getting to go through the rest of the story with her heart and legacy as its foundation has enriched pretty much everything else about it.

'fridging' is not 'anytime a woman dies' anymore than 'bury your gays' is 'anytime a gay person dies'. The context surrounding these phrases is important and by extrapolating them to the point that they can mean literally anything, they lose their edge when it comes to serving as tools of critique and commentary on harmful trends in fiction.

[king-lyrebird]

As a multishipper and enjoyer of ruikasa, I am begging this fandom to stop forcing this mlm take down everyone's throats. I love the canon dynamic that tsukasa and rui have, which, I'm not sure if you've noticed, is explicitly platonic. It sucks that people are so fucking yaoi brained that these male characters who are close friends just *have* to be kissing for them to be interesting. No fuck you actually, there's plenty of potential for them without making it romantic. Please drop the notion that these characters exist to be shipped together.

It really bothers me seeing people genuinely say 'pandemonium was the ruikasa event'. Pandemonium is about rui enjoying an event with his FRIENDS that he wasn't expecting to enjoy so much. Rui then having a heart to heart with tsukasa and thanking tsukasa for helping him change is a sweet moment they share that shows how their bond has benefited them... how is 'thank you for helping me change' romantic? My closest friend has helped me change, and I've said that to her, and I didn't say it with the subtext of 'I'm in love with you', I just wanted to remind her that she's had a positive impact on my life. Why does this entire event have to be boiled down to the one scene that's apparently the epitome of yaoi? Rui doesn't exist to be in love with tsukasa. Rui exists to be a character who grows and changes, who struggles with his friendships and has a hardened view of the world because of his past, but also a view that the world can be a happier place if he tries to show that to people. Turning him into a machine that kisses tsukasa is a fucking disgusting way of treating the genuine development we've seen of him over the course of the game.

To make it about shipping again, I've also seen the take that it's gross to ship rui with female characters because 'he's so gay coded'. Buddy, my best friends would be 'gay coded' if they were fictional, and they're the straightest people on this earth. Coding is an implication that does not mean canon. Rui can make a gay joke and wear the gay earring and... What?! He can still like women?! My favourite rui ship is honarui, a shocking take by the standards of the fandom. Rui is exclusively a gay man, and honami can only be shipped with Leo need and kanade because she's so sapphic coded I guess. It irks me in a way I can't explain that things have to be so black and white that it's only acceptable to ship specific characters with the same gender and the same characters over and over. I'm tired of honakana, I'm tired of ruikasa, I want to explore this dynamic that I haven't gotten to see enough of in canon. And it's fun to explore that dynamic. Is it wrong to have fun when writing about characters I like? Because reading and writing the same shlock for ruikasa is fucking boring.

I don't know if this is structured well but my main point is: be fucking creative. Write a platonic ruikasa fic and don't make it romantic by the end. Don't interpret every single interaction between same sex characters as inherently romantic. Don't see coding as the be all and end all of canon. Explore something new. Have some fucking fun and stop shoving the same bullshit into the mainstream because people who enjoy these ships do get tired of it eventually

[miela]

I do not think Jegulus is inherently misogynistic but I think their existence as a popular ship perfectly showcases the larger problem of misogyny in the Marauders fandom.

This fandom is painfully male centered with an unhealthy obsession with mlm ships, no matter how nonsensical they are. Jegulus, with all due respect, is a nonsense ship. I know some people like to ignore canon and make everything up but I don’t. Jegulus can work fine in AUs but not in canon compliant fics. And whenever Jegulus shippers speak about what makes them compelling, they always bring up tropes - brother’s best friend, sunshine x grumpy (don’t even get me started on thinking James Potter is a sunshine but that’s beside the point), enemies to lovers, etc. All that is meaningless to me. Shipping based on tropes is ridiculous because none of those tropes matter when James and Regulus, from what we know of their characters, are completely incompatible as people. I won’t speak on Regulus because we have little information about it and it’s easy to treat him as a blank sheet (although I think he’s too whitewashed) but we know a lot about James, including that he despised Slytherins, Death Eaters and the dark arts. So, in order for Jegulus to work, James has to become an unrecognizable character from what he actually is in canon. You are not writing about James Potter. You are creating an OC and slapping James’ name on it. Jegulus was born out of this weird necessity the fandom has for mlm ships. Take Drarry and Wolfstar as an example. Those ships aren’t canon but they have some canon basis because those couples interacted, had a dynamic together, had interactions and lore that could be interpreted in different ways. With Jegulus, it’s all made up.

And this leads me to Lily and by extent, the other girls. Lily was the main female character in the Marauders Era and Jily was the second biggest ship. Since Jegulus gained popularity, Lily has been sidelined, her story has been co-opted, even her own child gets snatched from her and given to Regulus. The girls that before had some developed (nowhere near enough because this fandom has always been misogynistic, let’s not get it twisted), have been shoved to the side or used as tools to further mlm ships. The reason why there’s such a pushback against sapphic!Lily, per example, is because unfortunately some people (definitely not all and definitely not sapphic women in this fandom) really only use that to get her out of the way of Jegulus and that’s the case for many wlw ships in the fandom. All they get is the yearly “I love [insert wlw ship]” tweet but get no more content or develop, unlike the men.

The general treatment of the girls is terrible too. The biggest Jegulus fic, Choices, has Regulus covering up Mary’s SA and James cheating on a pregnant Lily and yet we are supposed to root for them in the end. ATYD has Mary being routinely humiliated by both Sirius and Remus and we are supposed to be okay with it because they’re just two closeted teen boys navigating the world. Pandora and Dorcas have been placed in Slytherin and made besties with Death Eaters to make horrible men more sympathetic and so they can serve as therapists and saviors to people who joined a wizard terrorist group.

I could go on. I am genuinely not trying to be rude or aggressive, just giving my opinion. As I said, Jegulus shippers are not all misogynistic but Jegulus’ popularity showcases the implicit biases against women in the fandom. Other mlm ships and I will keep using Drarry and Wolfstar as examples have also led to the erasure and mistreatment of women. But it’s harder to justify Jegulus because unlike those other two ships, Jegulus is a completely random pairing that feels like was born out of the desire to pair James with a man rather than any interesting interactions those two characters had.

Hi!

Firstly, thank you for sharing your thoughts on it! I see your perspective well and agree with a lot of your points.

(Excuse my yapping below, it helps me get my thoughts out better and to better understand your points!)

For anyone reading this, please note that there are spoilers for atyd and choices below!

This fandom is definitely male-centered and I see your point on how focused the mlm ships this fandom is on. With the ships of wolfstar, the joke-gone-serious ship of jegulus, and the babygirlification and pairing of rosekiller, etc, etc...

I understand the canon compliant vs fanon complaint argument. I think that's where the lines get blurred when it comes to people's views on ships. Canon and Fanon are two completely different ball games when is comes with things making sense and what doesn't.

I lean more towards fanon compliant fics so for me that's where Jegulus makes sense to me because like you said, it's basically OCs with their names slapped on them. It's easier to mold them to work that way, so it's easier to ship them. Also I just love the idea of Sapphic!Lily too which was a concept I thought about before I even knew about Jegulus, honestly.

For canon-compliance, I am all for Jily 100% because it's canon-compliant. You can't fight with it. Even though wolfstar isn't canon, it makes sense to have them be something where as James and Regulus wouldn't have been anything. And I agree with you, they only work in AUs or fanon concepts.

With that being said, I also recognize the misogynistic nature of the fandom. I definitely don't agree with Jegulus raising Harry, because that's literally Jily's child (if anyone does, no hate towards you It's just doesn't sit well with me personally) and it begs the question, what happened with Lily that Jegulus has Harry?

I also agree with your point about how the girls/wlw ships in the fandom don't get a lot of development. I think it's a shame, truly. However, I have, recently, seen some people have different Headcanons of how they are as people. So I'm hoping that develops into something more than just ideas floating around. I also am not sure how they are in canon-compliant fics besides atyd (which I do have my opinions on too and im only halfway through it). I haven't read choices yet so I can only take your word for it.

I do at some point want to make a full long, academic-esque essay about the misogynistic nature of the fandom, because I do have A LOT to say, ESPECIALLY with the treatment of Mary. There's definitely a lot to unpack.

I'm fairly new to the Marauders fandom, so I'm trying to learn what I can. Again, thank you for sharing your perspective! I appreciate it!

[autisticcassandracain]

This has been bothering me for a while to the point where I've started on multiple posts about it, because it's a complex and delicate subject with a lot of nuance. But they've all grown into unfinished monster length essays, so here's a tl;dr:

The way fandom treats male rape trauma reeks of misogyny. This is especially grating considering how many of these fics/posts/fans clearly consider addressing this trauma inherently progressive.

First, fandom often falls prey to the idea that female rape victims are taken more seriously, which isn't true and ignores intersectionality.

Second, stories about male rape trauma are vastly overrepresented in fandom compared to female rape trauma. Where men will have fics examining and reframing canon instances of sexual harrassment/assault, female characters instead have those instances written out of their canon or simply do not have them addressed at all. Part of this is that female rape trauma is perceived as more loaded than men's (which I REALLY don't have the time to unpack with all the appropriate complexity and nuance), but a larger part of it is simply that fandom has a well-documented pattern of prioritizing white men. Fandom is less interested in female trauma (of any kind) than male trauma.

Third, attempts at reframing canon events as rape/sexual assault for men almost always end up bashing female characters, and often play into misogyny and racism.

Fans will completely refuse to place the event in proper context and truly unpack it. Often, what's going on in canon is not just a dismissal of male rape, but a nasty combination of racism and misogyny. Example: Talia al Ghul drugging Bruce to have sex with him is unadressed male rape trauma, yes, but it is also a massively racist and misogynistic plot point based in orientalist stereotypes (that completely goes against previous canon). Writing a fic where the event is reframed as rape makes it more racist and misogynistic, not less.

In addition, even taking that out of the equation, female characters are often used as antagonists in these fics with little to no nuance in ways that are obviously sexist and endemic of male prioritization. Example: in fics reframing that time Mirage (herself Brazillian, btw; again, racism and misogyny cannot be seperated from this arc) had sex with Dick Grayson while disguised as Koriand'r as rape, Koriand'r is often shown victim blaming him and has few if any other characteristics. This flattens her character in service of a man's angst, and, moreover, completely ignores the fact that she's canonically a rape survivor herself. This is misogynistic.

Obviously, writing about male rape trauma and/or reframing canon events as rape is not inherently bad. It is, in fact, good. But you need to actually do your research and understand feminism 101 before doing it. This is a delicate, complex, nuanced subject, and if you just want to write a hurt/comfort fic and aren't prepared to deal with the implications, consider picking a different thing to write about.

[just-antithings]

A lot of antis/puritans/terfs tend to assume that cishet female shippers who like mlm are bad by default because they fetishize gay men and like. I see where they're coming from. But if I may.... 1. Seeing a fictional character in a sexual light is not inherently degrading, unless 2. You strip them of their humanity, or objectify them, or treat them as play dolls that exist for your gaze alone. And while it's true that a fair amount of cishet fujos did behave this way in the 2000s, modern fanfics and fanarts indicate a shift towards appreciating depth of character alongside their own sexual desire. Like, personally, if a ship is attractive but boring, I won't like it. But if a ship is interesting character-wise and unattractive, who cares! I'll ship it. And if it's two hot guys as well, then I guess it's a bonus? It's not like I can just turn off my biologically hard-wired brain to not find men attractive. And finally, smut isn't inherently degenerate or less intellectual than sex-free fics. Oftentimes it can reveal the characters' hidden desires, fears, insecurities, and needs. So, like. Unless you go out of your way as a cishet women to ignore male character depth (which is odd and takes away half the joy of fan creation anyway) then it's really hard to actively fetishize and dehumanise gay men unless you're being an inconsiderate jerk.

But feel free to correct me if I'm wrong! I'm all ears, and these are just my messy, tired thoughts. Also, I know people can have internalised biases but I also believe that statement can co-exist with the fact that fandom shouldn't assume all cishet fujos are evil by default.

.

[zvtara-was-never-canon]

Yesterday I saw a post that basically said that Avatar wasn’t a feminist show that has a bias towards Zuko and that no female villains get redeemed(?!?) 

And said that the show oversexualises Azula which like WHAT

This is not a Cuties situation the camera never accentuates cleavage or anything, if you just saw Azula showing more skin in the beach episode (because she’s at the fucking beach) and then immediately thought about sex that sounds like a you problem.

People really gotta learn what words mean - and that no show from nearly TWENTY YEARS AGO is gonna present social issues the same way modern series would. Avatar has two whole episodes in which the whole lesson is "Sexism is bad, don't mistreat women", and a ton of the female characters are absolutely badass and incredibly well-written. One or two questionable moments is not enough to make claim it is misogynistic.

A female villain not getting redeemed while a male character does is only sexist if her gender is presented as the reason why she can't be redeemed, or if they did all the same things but her actions are presented as worse - and while the ATLA fandom is often guilty of that last one (not always because of sexism, but also because of ableism), that doesn't mean the writting of the SHOW was sexist.

I say this as someone who loves Azula's character and wants a redemption arc for her: the show's ending is a tragic, but logical one. Not everyone changes. Not everyone wants to change, or even gets the chance to. It's sad, but it makes sense and there's nothing offensive about the finale (unlike the way Azula was treated in the comics, but once again the root of the problem there was "the mentally ill are inherently evil/beyond help so anything and everything done to them is justifiable").

"The show oversexualizes her" That one is bit more complex - but not THAT much.

Avatar is a show with lots of fanservice (see Zuko taking off his shirt causing birds to fly and fangirls to appear behind him squeeling), but all of it is stuff that was ALWAYS presented in a way that was 100% appropriate for children. More importantly, the show never tried to use the fanservice to compensate for poor writting or to make Azula an evil seductress (a trope that is not inherently sexist, but can become so if the writer isn't careful with it). Making Azula gorgeous in a scene, or letting Grey Delisle have some fun like the did during the confrontation Zuko and Azula had in The Awakening, is not the same as them reducing Azula from character to sex-object.

Once again, the fandom is far more guilty of the "Attractive means sexual and sex is evil" mentality than the show ever was. I lost count of how many people "theorize" that Azula is a "slut" who slept her way to the top and has even raped people (usually Zuko and Suki) even though the show made it clear she can't flirt to save her life, is so respected/feared because she's a great fighter/manipulator, and has literally never forced herself onto her brother and was obviously lying when implying she had done something Suki because THE SHOW ITSELF told us everything she was telling the Gaang on that scene was just an attempt to buy her father more time until the eclipse was over.

Some of the fans treat her as the typical "evil femme fatale that you can tell is evil because she sleeps around", but the show itself never did that.

Also a lot of what I sometimes see fans claim is "sexualization" is just mundane stuff. I lost count of how many times people were losing their shit because "WHY IS A FOURTEEN YEAR GIRL ALWAYS WEARING MAKE UP?"

Maybe because said fourteen year old is a perfectionist that can't even stand to have one hair out of place, so obviously she'd want her face looking perfect too? Or maybe she wants to look older not to "seduce" anyone but because she'd rather not risk not being taken seriously for being so young? And, crazy thought but bear with me here, maybe, just maybe... Azula likes make-up. Revolutionary concept, I know.

And it's not like the show ever got weird about it like the comics (seriously, girl is hallucinating in a straight-jacket and her hair is all messed up, but SOMEHOW she put on lipstic/the doctors did it for her????). She had a clean face when she was sleeping and when she was at the royal spa getting her hair done, and even at Chan's party her make-up is exactly the same she wears during the day. The "weirdest" place she wore it at was at the beach, and again considering it's Azula, who always wants to look perfect, I can see it.

Seriously guys, there's a difference between "TikTok is constantly telling women, teen girls and children they need to buy 37 different products that they gotta put on before anyone can *gasp* see their face" and "This cartoon had one of the characters constantly wearing make-up because that's a thing teenagers do sometimes + it helps the character be more memorable"

[to-be-a-dreamer]

Okay so this post has gained a lot of traction and I've seen some questions in the tags and also a few other posts talking about the same thing so I just want to clarify what I mean when I say "Please don't reduce Lizzie's character and death to an extension of a man's" and similar things. (Just for some clarification before we start: I don't think this is some huge issue that we need to have a big fight about, but I have seen some people talking about it and I wanted to put in my two cents)

I know no one is doing this because they're misogynistic. I know there would be similar reactions if any of the men had the same arc over the season. I know people are telling the truth when they say the connections they're making between Lizzie and the male characters aren't because she's a woman. I know no one is thinking about her gender when they're saying these things and that is what bugs me, I think.

Fandom in general, but especially the MCYT fandom, has always had issues with the way we treat women. We have a tendency to reduce them to one or two characterizations (kind, mothering, vengeful, etc.) or to their relationships with men, things that aren't inherently bad things for a character to be. The issue comes from when that's the ONLY thing they ever get to be. They're not allowed to be as complex as the men. Again, I'm not at all saying that anyone is doing this on purpose, it's just a pattern that fandom culture as a whole seems to struggle with.

And when you have an issue like, that the answer isn't to ignore the gender aspect and treat all characters the same. You have to intentionally combat it. You have to take the time to deliberately give the female characters complex characterizations and interesting storylines outside of the men. It's equality vs. equity, you know?

If you've ever done research about writing POC characters, you've probably heard people say something like "Don't just write them like you would a white character because you might accidentally enforce stereotypes and biases you didn't even know existed. You have to be aware of those things so you can intentionally go against them." It's kinda similar to that in my head. You can't just say "I would do the same thing for a man" and be done with it because men and women have been treated very differently in fandom spaces and if we want to change that, we have to be intentional about how we write them.

I don't think there's anything inherently misogynistic about connecting Lizzie's death to the Canary Curse or Joel's revenge arc, but I would like her to also have her own character lore and a connection to the Watchers that isn't about a man. In a fandom space where women are constantly defined by their relationships with men and with a character who had as tragic a story as Lizzie, I would love for some of her lore to be about her and her alone. Connections to Jimmy and Joel are awesome! I love reading them! But I don't want that to be the only thing about her, even if that's what you would talk about if she were a man. She's not a man, she's a woman in a space where women are often mistreated or only seen as extensions of men. So even if you genuinely would say the same things about a man I just want you to challenge yourself to dig a little deeper with her character and find ways to give her something that is wholly and truly her own.

She had her own plans for revenge that went horribly wrong and ultimately led to her death! Even in her vengeful anger, she held a soft spot for Pearl because she remembered how she saved her in Session 1! She was forgotten and ignored by almost everyone! She tried to cheer herself up by doing something harmless and fun and that led to her being punched and then murdered for no reason! She wasn't even angry at Jimmy when he accidentally murdered her because she felt like it was her own fault! She tried so hard at everything she did and it still wasn't enough! She knew no one would come to save her from the caves! The only thing she asked of anyone was for them to come to her slumber party and still only one person showed up for her! She was forced to turn on her own husband to complete her task! She tried to make it up to him and it led to her being out of the game! No one even gave her a funeral when she was gone! She was forgotten and ignored in both life and death! There is so much more to her than being motivation for a man or breaking a man's curse, even if those are big things that happened.

Again, I'd like to make it very clear that I'm not angry about the way Lizzie has been treated, I'm mostly joking whenever I say things like in the original post. It's mostly just a feeling of "Come on I know we can do better than that!" And in the past few days I've seen a lot of people do some really amazing things with her character! So much amazing art and fanon lore! This isn't even a huge issue anymore because a lot of people have begun to explore her individual character now that the excitement about the Canary Curse has died down. This post is just an explanation for people who were asking questions or weren't sure what people meant in some posts from earlier in the week.