#burnt bird primary vs burnt lion primary

[wisteria-lodge]

Do you have any trick to know whenever you are a Bird Primary or a Lion Primary please ? I tried the exploding trick and it didn’t work since at my worst I was a mix of viewing people who didn’t share my ideals as the enemy and being paralyzed by how much I didn’t know and thus unable to make a decision or form an opinion (very nasty and dark period of my life I wish I could erase).

Being paralyzed by how much you don't know and unable to make a decision is a Bird primary thing (not knowing what to do can SOMETIMES be a Burnt Secondary thing, but in this context it seems it to be coming from the primary.)

The tricky thing always about sorting and identifying Birds is that they can build themselves a system that looks like pretty much anything, so you have to look at how they believe, how their beliefs are built, and how their beliefs change. Burnt Birds also have a way of looking like very miserable Lions... but yeah, this isn't an Exploded Lion ask. Exploded Lions don't doubt.

If anything, I think your Bird was more Burnt than exploded, that whole 'I do not trust my ability to reason' thing. Exploded Birds are more Birds who break their ability to take in information - they either stop taking in new information completely, or only take it from one very specific source, OR just get overwhelmed by taking in everything all the time to the point where they can't tell what's real or not.

[wisteria-lodge]

Yeah, this REALLY sounds like a Burnt Lion.

Do you think bird primaries might surround themselves with people who instinctively have the morality the bird has constructed in order to "mimic" them when in doubt? not in manipulative or calculating way, but more like "this person acts morally / in accordance to my morals so I will trust their instincts when I lack the data to make an informed decision about a thing". Or is that more of a burned primary?

I'd say some bird primaries would actually surround themselves purposefully with people who disagreed with them-- to challenge and hone their thoughts and ensure they're not hiding from the truth! It really depends on the bird.

[laufire]

Sorting Hat Chats: The 100

I’ve been thinking of sorting the characters on this show for a while, but that’s easier said than done because it has a pretty extensive cast LOL. At the end, I decided to limit myself to those characters that made it alive to the final season, and a few cases that only really appeared in it and were key to the plot (although if anyone wants, I’m happy to debate others). I apologize beforehand if I forgot anybody xD. Obviously, spoilers from the show are to be expected.

For those who don’t know: the sortinghatchats method was inspired by Hogwarts houses, but it uses a dual way of sorting characters: primaries, relating to motive (WHY do they do things), and secondaries, referring to methods (HOW do they do things). Instead of the traditional names for the houses, it uses Badger, Bird, Lion, and Snake.

There’s also what’s called models:  primary or secondary sortings other than one’s own, that you’ve taught  yourself or being taught to use to get by when yours fails you. They can  also adopt performances, the ability to appear as another  sorting, but those are self-aware and more about mimicking behavior for  specific circumstances.

Primaries or secondaries can also be Burnt (something has gotten in the way, making you feel you can’t trust them or use them) or Exploded (in the opposite direction, one goes too far with their sorting. I.e.,  an Exploded Lion secondary would throw themselves at anything without  thinking of the consequences, becoming quite self-destructive).

Now, a brief summary of each sorting, for reference:

LION Primary’s sense of morality and ethics comes from inside. Things just feel right or they feel wrong. BIRD Primary gets their morality and ethics from the world outside them. They decide what they think is right. BADGER Primary is focused on the good of the group. Who cares if something is technically “moral” if people are getting hurt? SNAKE Primary is a lot like Badger, but instead of protecting the group, their highest law is the well-being of the individual people they love.

LION Secondary gets their power from being direct, honest, completely themselves. Their “plan” is just keep going until someone stops them. If they see a locked door, they kick it in. BIRD Secondary collects tools and skills. They build things, find things, learn things. If they see a locked door, they go through their box of keys until they find the right one. BADGER Secondary is fair, hardworking, and shows up. They’re good at getting people to trust them, and good at getting people to help them. If they see a locked door, they knock. SNAKE Secondary knows the right mask to wear for each situation. They’re adaptive. They go in the back way. They find the third option. They’re the ones who know how to pick the locks.

CLARKE GRIFFIN

Miss Griffin was an easy one, because I’m very used to her kind: unhealthy Badger primary paired with (in her case, burnt) Snake secondary.

Unhealthy Badgers’ community preocupations devolve into Us vs. Them mentality (rampant nationalism for example), giving them ease when it comes to othering and dehumanizing other groups. S5 showed the most extreme case, as her group had been reduced to one other person with Madi. They’re also extremely controlling, as they always think they Know Better what’s best for everybody, and feel justified about any immoral action they take as they feel it’s what’s right.

Her secondary is burnt, which can make it harder to identify (burnt secondaries all can look like a person is passive or ineffective, if they don’t manage to pick up models. Which Clarke didn’t). But I can’t see any other for her, and she’s pulled a few uber Snake moves here and there, like stealing the bunker or trying to become Commander (but as she’s burnt, not too effectively).

BELLAMY BLAKE

I think Bellamy is a Bird primary, a group that can be a bit hard to identify for me so I do it by process of elimination: I don’t think he’s a Lion, with how much he depends on outside input; he might’ve started with a Snake model for Octavia, but it made him miserable, and in general I don’t think he’s a Loyalist, with how easy is for him to see outside perspectives. Another details is that Birds can be vulnerable to cult mentality which. Welp. And his interest in ancient history and mythology is another trait that could point to it.

For his secondary, I’d pick Badger. He’s at his best when he draws people in through effort, putting the work in, and the methods he uses when he needs to manipulate are very Badger in nature (encouraging others on his behalf, interrogation, etc.).

OCTAVIA BLAKE

The girls is so Double Lion it hurts to look at sometimes lmao. She makes decisions entirely with her gut, and the consequences hit her hard. She’s impulsive and headstrong and unstoppable. I think she slowly burned during her Blodreina arc, because although Lions can be natural and effective leaders (and I think looking at the show’s track record, Octavia has been the most effective and long-term one we’ve seen by far, no matter her critics xD), being forced to go against what they FEEL is right or wrong would gut them, like it did to Octavia during the dark year, hardening her until she crumbled. She didn’t heal until the end, when she stopped the final battle.

Another trait typical of Lion primaries I’ve seen is an tendency to side with (who they perceive as) the underdog (with the dark side of White Saviorism attitudes, ime), even when it’s on the “other” side of a conflict, which can be seen in Octavia’s ease to relate to the grounders.

RAVEN REYES

I think Raven is another Bird primary, like Bellamy, albeit a less malleable one. Part of it is that she has a pretty solid Snake primary model that she used for Finn, and that later gave her some help too. I debated with myself between Snake and Bird for a while, but ultimately I went with Bird. I think the way she appealed to the Judgy Alien Entity in the finale pointed in that direction (we can learn to do better etc.).

She’s, IMO, a Lion secondary through and through, although she sometimes uses a Bird model. I think her secondary burns in the last season when she causes the deaths of the Eligius works, accounting for how meek she starts acting, constantly second-guessing herself.

JOHN MURPHY

This boy is a Snake primary if I ever saw one, with Emori as His Person and the rest of the space fam in his inner circle, but not as much. He was burnt and bitter at the beginning, as can happen to lonely Snakes, often taking refuge in other things to compensate (status, gains, revenge, anything). They’ll choose people above ideals, which can give them a ~carefree vibe when it comes to their morals.

As for his secondary, I’d go with Badger. It’s immature to start with, but as we advance through the series we see him becoming better at it, and he’s really good at getting people on his side, to convince them to do what he wants them to do, like he did with Indra and Pike, like he earned the trust of Sanctum’s citizens, etc.

ECHO KOM AZGEDA

She’s, IMO, another Snake primary, although that part of her rarely got to shine in Azgeda. But we see her being primarily preocupied with Her People, first and foremost. When she’s convinced to let go of her revenge quest for Bellamy, is because Raven put herself in the line of fire, and Echo couldn’t allow that.

She’s also a damn good Bird secondary and strategist, who learns and collects skills, and can work a long scheme like a spy should.

EMORI

Badger primary for my girl. She starts out burnt, due to her society’s and family’s rejection of her, and her primary starts to heal with Murphy and, especially, with the rest of spacekru (see when she tells Murphy she didn’t know she had needed to be part of something bigger like them, but she had). She THRIVES in communities, and she strives to protect everyone around her.

It’s interesting how it pairs with her Snake secondary, which came in handy when it came to con people and taken advantage of any unpredicted opportunity to do so. It gave her a mercenary edge because she needed to protect herself, to think on her feet, but when she’s safe, she prioritices the group and is in “neutral” mode, not feeling the need to put on a face with her closest people.

I think it’s hilarious that she house shares with Clarke, btw xD, because they’re outbringings and experiences show how very different two people of the same sorting can become.

Also, I love mirroring pairings, so I love that hers and Murphy’s sorting are inverted lol (on top of pairings with a Snake primary being really romantic :P).

NATHAN MILLER

I’m devided between Badger or Snake primary, although I’d ultimately go for the first. He, more than anybody, took to Wonkru and the needs that structure provided.

I think he’s a Bird secondary, although he doesn’t get as much focus as others and it doesn’t get their chance to shine.

ERIC JACKSON

I’d go with Double Badger for him: community oriented, natural caretaker. Not bad traits for a doctor slash therapist.

INDRA KOM TRIKRU

I started thinking of her as a possible Lion primary, but lately I’m more inclined towards Snake, with Gaia and Octavia as her people, and a Lion model or performance as a general and leader. And when faced with Sheidheda, she prioritized getting one over on him for her mother, always, even when it could’ve been detrimental.

Her secondary is a more tempered Lion, but still steadfast, tireless.

NIYLAH KOM TRIKRU

I see in her the open-mindedness and free-spiritedness of other Bird primaries, as well as a Badger secondary caretaker tendency (she sees an emotionally scarred girl and she’s THERE smh).

GAIA KOM TRIKRU

I think her flamekeeper trajectory shows Lion primary tendencies; she did what she did despite what her community or her mother might’ve needed or wanted from her, determined that she knew what was right for her. For her secondary I’d go with Lion too, as I feel she’s someone who couldn’t ever pretend to be anything but Herself, keeping to her faith even in the bunker despite possible consequences.

MADI

Sorting someone so young can be difficult, as I always feel we haven’t seen enough and their secondaries tend to be more rash and unformed. But I’ll give it a go.

I’ve seen Lion primary traits in her, that “this is WRONG, it’s just WRONG” feeling, that is what creates her main conflicts with Clarke. She also tends to take big responsibilities over her shoulders because she feels it’s her duty, and doing one’s duty is What’s Right, like taking the Flame or giving herself up to Cadogan.

She’s yet another possible Double Lion, I think, as she’s pathologically incapable of subterfuge and never thinks things ahead xD. It makes sense to me that she’d reflect Octavia, tbh.

CHARMAINE DIYOZA

Yet ANOTHER Lion primary lmao. One that eventually became disilusioned with her own crusade, and that adopted a Snake model with her daughter and Octavia, IMO.

Her secondary, however, is Bird. Look at her little notebook of strategist and thoughs. That’s such a Bird secondary move.

HOPE DIYOZA

Snake primary that very easily grows attached to people, with a very impulsive and immature Lion secondary that’s gotten her into trouble (and her mother killed, with her rash quest for vengeance).

JORDAN GREEN

I’m thinking Bird primary (he gathers outside information and decides, changes his mind when he receives new information without making the fuss other primaries would about being wrong), and maybe Lion secondary for his rashness.

GABRIEL SANTIAGO

Bird primary. These guys can spend their lifetimes figuring out the world, what’s right and what’s wrong, how everything works etc., and Gabriel spent several ones doing just that, so he’s not a hard one.

I think he’s also a Bird secondary, going through several combinations for the spiral, for his early experiments with the minddrives, etc. This is called The Mad Scientist sorting, so you know. Fitting xD

SHEIDHEDA

Frankly, these guy’s primary is everyone’s guess, though I guess Lion is the better fit, if only because the rest sound absurd. And well, Exploded Lion primary sounds about right for him: completely caught up in his Cause TM (his cause being leading the Grounders to a glorious end, I guess).

For his secondary, on instinct, I’d go with Snake. When he was in Russel’s body he didn’t try to play a determined part, he went with the flow and easily maneuvered things on the fly to end up on top.

LEVITT

Snake secondary that was miserable on Bardo’s “no emotional bonds ever” rules. Once he meets Octavia he’s ALL IN with her in a way that’s frankly a bit ridiculous lol, but Snake love is like that.

Just based on how people in Bardo reacted to him, I’m going to say he’s a Badger secondary. Despite everything that should’ve made them look twice at him, they kept trusting him, which makes me think he had a good reputation as a loyal hardworker and was likeable enough that they kept giving him the benefit of the doubt.

BILL CADOGAN

This guy is a Snake primary that REALLY doesn’t want to be a Snake primary, and those guys are always a pain xDD. In the end it’s his family, his daughter especially, that motivates him and he’s fixated on, but that’s not something he can accept in himself, hence his whole “no personal bonds, the collective is what matters” Bardo society with a hardcore Badger performance.

I’d say Bird secondary for him. He planned ahead when he created the bunker, he tried out different plans and combinations with the stone, he crafted the society he thought would be best to past the test from scrach, and he went to cryo to play the long game.

TL;DR

Clarke Griffin = Badger Snake AKA The Politician. Unhealthy primary, burnt secondary.

Bellamy Blake = Bird Badger AKA The Survivor (yes, this is very ironic. I know quite a few dead characters in this house, idk what writers are playing at xD)

Octavia Blake = Double Lion AKA The Revolutionary. Burnt secondary, healed at the end.

Raven Reyes = Bird Lion AKA The Grail Knight. Temporarily burnt secondary.

John Murphy = Snake Badger AKA The Lover. Unburnt primary. Very fitting name for the Romantic Hero of the story lmao.

Echo kom Azgeda = Snake Bird AKA The Mastermind.

Emori = Badger Snake AKA The Politician. Unburnt primary.

Nathan Miller = Badger Bird AKA The King Arthur.

Eric Jackson = Double Badger AKA The Peacemaker.

Indra kom Trikru = Snake Lion AKA The Rebel.

Niylah kom Trikru = Bird Badger AKA The Survivor (not an ironic one!!).

Gaia kom Trikru = Double Lion AKA The Revolutionary.

Madi kom Louwoda Kliron Kru = Double Lion AKA The Revolutionary.

Charmaine Diyoza = Lion Bird AKA The Vigilante.

Hope Diyoza = Snake Lion AKA The Rebel.

Jordan Green = Bird Lion AKA The Grail Knight.

Gabriel Santiago = Double Bird AKA The Mad Scientist.

Sheidheda = Lion Snake AKA The Robin Hood.

Levitt = Snake Lion AKA The Lover (another fitting title!).

Bill Cadogan = Snake Bird AKA The Mastermind.

[mooglesorts]

man. it's weird, because there's a lot of things about me that are Very Badger Primary, to the point where i would probably pick it with a strong bird model over anything else at this point... except that i hate dehumanization. i saw primaries described recently as 'things you wouldn't be you anymore if you went against,' and more than just about anything else that's it. even when i think people are monsters, i can't see them as not human; i'd be hard put to define exactly what i consider a 'monster,' but it's more about like. good faith than personhood, i suppose?

it's not necessarily a permanent status to be one--people can change--but my deeply held instinct is that once you have done something monstrous you will always be a person who has been a monster by your own choices, and that it's your duty to learn how to accept that while still living your life, and act accordingly from thereon out. you have to reconcile that you are a person with the fact that some doors are closed to you now, and it's up to you to decide what you do from there.

just. like. even when i hate someone and as far as i'm concerned they can go fuck themself, even in the multiple Heavily Badger social environments i've been in over the course of my life--church, progressive circles, the way the structure of the internet kind of just affects you in general--even on occasions where i've gotten swept away and given in to the pressure to dehumanize (or perform it) for a minute, there's always, always been a voice in the back of my head saying this is a person. this is a person. this is a person. this isn't right.

unintentional dehumanization sets off my '...should we really be doing this? we are getting into not good territory here, it's time to pull up and start questioning' alarms. explicit, intentional, purposeful dehumanization sets off the whole ass tornado sirens. if people on my side are doing it it's enough to throw me into a system-destabilizing crisis, because NO NO NO I WANT TO GET OFF THIS RIDE, I WANT NO PART OF THESE PEOPLE'S MORAL SYSTEM, I FEEL UNCLEAN. it's a good way to make sure i will never, ever, ever trust someone again.

things that are Really Really Badger, off the top of my head (after the cut because Long and trauma talk):

[[MORE]]

---

-i've always loved playing adoptable games, pet simulators, etc? any game with randomly generated characters that are Yours Now and a Community, in a deeply badgery way. including games where they can die (the satisfying part is making sure they don't). except that, no matter how much fun the gameplay is, if it gets to the point where they start feeling disposable, and the only way to really keep playing is to stop humanizing them, i lose interest. it's super fucking depressing. it feels like part of me dying inside a little. i don't like it at all.

-i've always been drawn to fandoms and roleplaying communities. i was fiercely loyal to, and proud of, my first rp community on dragoncave as a 13-year-old. when my abusive mom found out about it and completely isolated me for half a year, the promise of being able to make it back to them--just sneakier this time--kept me going; when i finally got back and the group had drifted apart in my absence, it.... was absolutely devastating. i never really recovered from it. even then, i spent years trying to get the group back together every now and then, until i finally gave up.

-i am always keenly, painfully aware of the life cycle of a community. every time i hear the sentiment 'you guys are all great and i love this group' my stomach drops, because i know it's only a matter of time before things go sour or the group dissolves. rp groups, skype chats/discord servers, fandoms, you name it, i am always bracing myself or staying away entirely to avoid the inevitable and it hurts. and it hurts to see people taking part in a community i don't dare be part of, which makes lurking in fandoms... really rough. frankly, it takes me a lot of courage every time i express my appreciation for the shc community because i've been burned so many times.

-on that note: i went through some really traumatic stuff at the end of 2020 that completely turned my life upside down, and i was doing bad until i stumbled across the shc community. the moment i started engaging, it was a huge boost to my mental health, and my ability to cope with circumstances under which i was about to break down spectacularly. and it has been ever since! contributing to The Group Project and seeing other folks being friendly with each other gives me the happy feelings.

-i used to go out of my way to build and run spaces, mainly fandom and rp spaces, and took a lot of pride in engineering them so that they Functioned Well. unfortunately it wore me the hell down over the years for Burnt Badger Reasons, and now i'm too jaded, bitter, and exhausted to give a shit about being a mod/community leader anymore because of it lmao

-among those burnt badger things i relate HARD to the Red Ledger narrative. hoo boy.

-i wish i could find it again, but there was an mlp comic i saw once which went into luna's observations of what each element of harmony Means. with the element of friendship, she says that twilight has a massive amount of love to give; right now it's all focused on celestia, but when she learns to expand it outward she'll have grown into her full potential as a person, and she'll change the world. that struck a chord with how i used to feel, hard, and it's really stuck with me ever since. (hello, unhealthy snake model)

-emphasis on 'used to feel,' lmao

-got super invested in a really toxic '''mental health''' community at a low point in my life; exploded HARD trying to help everyone i could; got into vicious, protracted fights with the shitty mods for years about the harmful way they ran their community until i finally managed to go 'fuck this it's not getting better' and leave.

-had to numb myself emotionally to the people around me for a long time once i really started learning about mental health and trauma stuff, because now i was seeing signs of their pain and baggage everywhere i looked, and i couldn't handle not being able to help.

-the imagery with which i think about my bird primary is overwhelmingly negative. whether it's my actual primary or a model, i uh. i feel like a healthy relationship to one's primary doesn't involve associating it with gore.

-i saw a conversation recently about how birds think of morality in terms of 'if you can, you should,' and how that's scary for badgers because their definition of 'can' involves destroying yourself for the sake of that 'should,' and... yeah, that's a mood. that's a BIG mood. thinking about bird primary stuff is hard--and i had to pick up my lion model to deal with it--because it's so easy for me to spiral into a self-shredding spiral of other people are counting on you to do the right thing, how dare you pull back for your own health and sanity. how dare you turn your back for even a minute. how dare you rest. the work is never done.

which is... a very exploded badger approach to exploded bird morality. whoops.

-fix-it and time travel fiction in which Everything Went Right This Time and It's Going to Be Okay are one of my very favorite self-indulgent fantasies. i will enjoy putting characters through the wringer in all kinds of creatively horrific ways which may or may not end on a downer note, certainly, i love that shit, but i will also 90% of the time have a backup version of the arc or dynamic that's softer and lighter and Actually Healthy This Time. it's the dichotomy there that really gets me tbh, a story where Everything Ends Happily by default will mmmaybe pull me in? but stories where there's the constant shadow of this could end horribly, it's supposed to end horribly, and we got a happy fucking ending anyway are just... that shit will make me cry, man.

it's also why i kind of really hate stable time loop stories where it initially looks like this is going to be The Good Timeline this time around, but OOPSIE everything went to shit anyway! we're right back where we started, just like it was meant to be all along! it's a tired cliche by this point and an unsatisfying one for me, and it makes me roll my eyes every time.

-this is relevant to the bird vs. badger because like... my gut instinct is to prioritize people over systems. when shit hits the fan, when someone's fallen into the machinery and is about to get hurt, i don't feel right about it if i just let it happen. i'll break the machinery if i have to to keep it away from them; i won't feel great about that, and it might cause problems, but fuck it, we'll figure it out later. throwing people into the gears of a system when i'm convinced it's the only option makes me feel Awful.

-related to the above, another trope that really speaks to me in fiction is when a character defies the rules of reality through sheer force of will. no, this is not happening, i don't give a shit what the limits are supposed to be. i refuse to let this be the way things are. (there's that lion model.)

-i've just kind of... always wanted to be an Everyone Badger. it makes me sad how much of that i've lost over the years as i've gotten more cynical, but it's what i wish i could be.

---

doubtless i'll think of more the moment i hit send, and there are just as many things about me that are Super Bird Primary, but like... mamma mia that's some spicy badger. the main thing stopping me is the Can't and Refuse to Dehumanize bit. i also... hm. i think i can function okay without a community? they just help a lot, and it sucks when i'm confronted with one i don't have a (stable) place in. any thoughts? is it possible for a bird system's foundation to run so deep that eventually it overrides the bird?

[painted-crow]

Hi! Before I begin I should tell you how much I adore your blog :D I have a feeling that my primary might be burnt because I’m just generally confused about it. I can’t even really tell between an idealist vs loyalist split bc id feel terrible either way if I abandoned people vs ideals. Any tips for figuring out my true primary under all this burnt-ness. I’m major confused :/ thanks a ton, paint!

Thank you! ^^

Idealists can also hold people as part of their ideals, so if the two feel similar to you, you might lean toward Lion or Bird.

If I could write a single post to help everyone who felt Burned and confused, it'd be a heck of a post :D thing is, as you've noticed, Burned Houses are way harder to Sort!

Instead, here's a quick refresher on

How to ask for Sorting advice (without getting too stuck):

Pick out maybe four or five of the official SHC quiz questions that you feel are most relevant to your Sorting (double that if you're asking about both primary and secondary), and go ahead and send in a submission answering those for me. You don't have to use the answers the quiz gives you, and you're encouraged to elaborate as you like.

Since you want help with your primary, you'll want to choose questions from the primaries section ^^

This format works for a specific reason: the quiz questions make a good prompt to get you to talk about the right things, the right kinds of hypotheticals, and a prompt is really valuable when talking about something so complex. But the quiz itself is restricted in what answers it can let you give, and when you're freewriting a submission, that's not so much of an issue. So you get the best of both worlds, making it as easy as possible on you.

If you're stuck on which questions to include, I suggest going for ones that are hard to answer (you can't choose, it's complicated) and ones that are very easy to answer (you know exactly what to pick and feel strongly about it).

Just a note, I sometimes choose to trim the final post for length/relevance/avoiding redundancy. I promise I always read the whole thing, though!

Oh, and also...

Tags

I'm on mobile and haven't yet sat down to approach the project of making a tag masterpost or anything fancy like that, but I do have a tagging system around here.

I consistently tag Houses, so you might want to check out "#burned gryffindor primary" and the like. If you're on mobile, the most reliable way is to tap the tag on another post that has it, because mobile search is hopelessly broken. I'll tag all the burned primaries on this post for your convenience. It should work on desktop too.

The "#shc burned houses" tag exists, but I forget that it exists so I'm way less consistent with using it >.< sorry! One of these days I'll fix it, or start remembering to use it at least.

[the-phoenix-heart]

How do Deku and Bakugou interact with both being double Lion ?

Oooh boy here comes my rant about platonic Bakudeku and their double Lions! (I also just finished watching Heroes Rising so my BakuDeku feels are stronger than usual-cause I’m a multishipper)

First of all, I feel the need to double down on Deku’s primary. He is a Lion primary. Does he want to save people-yes, but there are things about his character you have to consider. Mainly, he’s more focused on the goal of becoming the number one hero and saving people, than the people he wants to save. He doesn’t bond with communities, he bonds with the individuals he meets. But, he does think it’s the right way to live, so Badger primary model. 

And boy howdy do they interact with their double Lions. 

Bakugou for the longest time was a Glory-Hound Lion. He wanted to be the strongest there ever was and he wanted to be on top of everyone else. But, deep down he always felt like he was missing something. What he was missing was that Paragon Lion that Deku had. He liked his Glory-Hound Lion and he didn’t understand that you could have both. And he saw not naturally having a Paragon Lion as a weakness in himself, which is why he bullied him (doesn’t justify it but y’know it’s called character development. 

Deku meanwhile admired Bakugou’s Glory-Hound Lion. He saw Bakugou’s hunger for power and love of strength, and how it made Bakugou powerful and strong and he loved Bakugou for it (platonically! possibly...). 

But they couldn’t understand each other. Bakugou at the time couldn’t let go of his Glory-Hound Lion out of stubbornness and Deku couldn’t understand that his Paragon Lion was causing Bakugou to lash out. Notice, Bakugou only started to grow as a person when Deku left him alone more. 

Now, Bakugou did become friends with Kirishima-another double Lion with a Paragon Lion primary-but it was not Deku’s Paragon Lion. Bakugou grew up with Deku and his Paragon Lion and so he couldn’t accept it at the time, but Kirishima (who is has a small dose of Glory-Hound in him) was able to get through. 

And their secondaries, ever since the first scene of the show they’ve been standing on opposite sides facing each other down. Bakugou did not like how similar he and Deku were despite their differences, which is why Bakugou burned Deku’s secondary. Once Deku’s secondary was burned Deku turned to a Bird secondary model, which ironically Bakugou probably saw and thought, ‘I can do that better.’ Bakugou then used his Bird secondary model to bolster his own Lion secondary. 

And of course we have to talk about how their relationship with All Might relates to their sorting. Bakugou looked at All Might and saw a Glory-Hound Lion primary. This vision was wrong. While seeing that All Might was not wrong, he was wrong in assuming that’s whole All Might was. Deku saw All Might and his Badger primary, and copied it. 

And now we get to the Sludge Villain incident, where Bakugou is in trouble and Deku’s secondary unburns all in one day. This is when Bakugou starts to vaguely respect Deku, and it’s because of his secondary and how he just rushed in. It’s also because he doesn’t want to be in debt, but he still has some respect for him. 

Except what little respect there was shatters when he thinks Deku has lied to him. Lying is very important to Bakugou, in that he refuses to lie and if you lie to him he’ll kick your ass. Bakugou is pissed and immediately rushes in to fight him about it like the Lion secondary he is, and gets stopped. 

Then the first fight in Ground Beta happens, and we see their Lion secondaries really colliding with each other for the first time, they yell at each other and throw punches. Their first fight was not a pretty fight emotionally at all, it was ugly and taxing for both of them. 

We see it clearly on Bakugou’s face that his primary took a hit. He’s literally having a panic attack over losing. His primary isn’t burnt, but it has not escaped the fight unscathed. Failure goes against everything he knows about himself (as a gifted kid I relate), if he has failed who the fuck is he?! He gets over this by using his Lion secondary to drag himself out. If he just proclaims that he’s going to be the number one and surpass All Might then it’s gotta be true. 

And you see it even more clearly in the Sport Festival. At the beginning of the arc he proclaims to the entire country that he’s going to win. I can never get over this because it’s basically him forcing himself to win. If he fails then he’s a hypocrite and no one wants to be a hypocrite. Once again he uses his blunt Lion secondary to drag himself along. The idea that you can rely on you secondary to keep your primary from burning...that’s kind of beautiful, but I think you can only do that with an improvisational primary. 

And in the Sports Festival you see their secondaries on clear display. Especially Deku who breaks his body and yells at a guy until the guy faces years of Mommy and Daddy issues and severe trauma. Bakugou meanwhile fights everyone until his match against Todoroki. 

Todoroki is a Snake primary, who’s unsure what his quirk means to him since he’s just now faced his trauma. Bakugou, a Double Lion, gets pissed off when Todoroki ignores him because he’s his opponent and he deserves his attention. Bakugou proves just how un-Snake he is by telling Todoroki that his family and feelings don’t matter and all that matters is the fight. It almost seems like Todoroki has listened. 

Until the match happens and Bakugou fights and yells at him to use his fire aspect of his quirk. Todoroki only uses his quirk when Deku, house matched with Bakugou, does the exact same thing. Todoroki does it because it was Deku, someone he had bonded with told him. But, then he still can’t do it for understandable reasons. Bakugou finds out he won the fight, but Todoroki didn’t use his fire and that pisses him off more than anything. The idea that he didn’t win the fight fair and square is painful and pisses him off more than anything. He wasn’t more powerful than Todoroki, Todoroki just held back. That’s not a real win.

and then the school chains him to the podium and forces him to take the medal on national tv BUT THAT’S A TOPIC FOR ANOTHER DAY

(also All Might has no idea how to handle a Lion primary that isn’t modeling Badger. “Take this medal as a wound,” no All Might you’re just gonna mess him up further! He’s not SUPPOSED to be wounded!)

Then there comes the fight against All Might where they have to work together. This is after the internship arc, where Bakugou had a Snake secondary pushed on him (which he did not accept) and Deku finally got control of his power and leveled up. Bakugou sees this and it terrifies him. Why is Deku’s Double Lion loved by all but his is hated? For a while Bakugou doesn’t even try to get along with Deku and just beat All Might himself. Then he accepts defeat because he doesn’t want to fight alongside Deku-to him that would be admitting that he is weak. And Deku does the only thing he can think of to get Bakugou to listen-he punches him and says “LET’S WIN THIS KACCHAN!” Because fuck my emotions. 

And then they yell at each other, Deku trying to hype up Bakugou and Bakugou because LISTEN UP WE ARE GONNA WORK TOGETHER MY WAY! And even as they are fight/running from All Might they’re yelling at each other, but it works. They think on the fly and Bakugou fights All Might with all he has until he’s broken. And then Deku, about to win, turns away for a moment and sees Bakugou nearly passed out under All Might and does the most badass thing ever and PUNCHES ALL MIGHT RIGHT IN THE FACE!! HIS OWN MENTOR!! Just so he can save Bakugou. It’s beautiful. 

(Now is a good time to mention I’m writing this to the soundtrack for Heroes Rising and IT FUCKING SLAPS-or that’s just me loving instrumentals)

Then Bakugou gets kidnapped, and a little detour, Deku fully understands that he cannot be the one to reach out to Bakugou. Kirishima has to be the one because Bakugou trusts him. Kirishima and him are friends and Bakugou will let him save him, and Deku recognizes that. 

And then Kacchan vs. Deku part 2 happens, and it is the most Double Lion fight ever. Bakugou is literally venting his feelings at Deku by screaming and exploding him. Deku in turn is explaining how he has always admired Bakugou by yelling back and punching him. And this is another reason why he think he’s a Lion primary: Deku admired Bakugou not because he was kind or cared about people, but because Bakugou was strong and determined-those are Lion traits he admired.

He also says he starts to talk like Bakugou when he gets really into a fight-which makes sense since his Lion secondary was burned for so long and Bakugou was his main example for years. Rip me. 

By the way, Bakugou’s primary had officially burned before this fight. He literally asks if he was wrong to try and emulate All Might the way he did, why he had to be the one to destroy All Might. But, the fight with Deku and winning helps him unburn, or at least recover.

And then pretty much nothing happens in the show for season four but EVERYTHING happens in Heroes Rising and the manga and I can’t TALK ABOUT IT BECAUSE SPOILERS BUT TRUST ME THESE DOUBLE LIONS KEEP DOUBLE LIONING IT UP (and also possibly falling in love idk i’m an equal opportunitist with Kiribaku and Bakudeku)!!

[wisteria-lodge]

I’ve honestly never liked the word “model” because it implies lesser-ness and falseness. When you could totally argue that models are actually MORE important to your personal identity and expression, because you chose them. (Like a family vs found family thing.) There are definitely people who love their model and secondary equally and use them together - or who even *prefer* living in their models, only taking out their original secondary when they’re really in trouble.

I wish you saw this sort of thing with more characters, because it makes for some cool narrative moments. The only examples I can think of are Felix from Orphan Black (who spends most of his time in a soft, happy Badger model, and switches to snake when threatened) and Spike from Buffy the Vampire Slayer (who prefers to interact with the world as a lion - but if that doesn’t work breaks out his Bird - and if THAT doesn’t work uses his snake secondary.) But characters are generally much more simple than people, and this is the main way they get simplified. Most characters have ONE secondary that they use ALL the time, which I think can inadvertently create a narrative of “falseness” around models. 

I also know that the people who write in to me with questions about their sorting heavily skew towards burnt primaries, burnt secondaries or both. Which also unintentionally contributes to the perspective that models are Bad and a Problem, and the ideal situation would be to live in your one secondary 100% of the time. And I don’t think I would have a problem with someone saying that they switched secondaries, or have two secondaries. All this is *really* is a helpful set of words that hopefully makes it easier to describe yourself to yourself. So whatever formulation you hit on that accomplishes that, is correct. 

Been away from tumblr for a while so I'm binging Wisteria's analyses and just hit a patch of really good Badger Secondary posts that I relate to and now I'm just Oh awesome. It's time to play Which Part of My Badger and Snake Combo Secondary is the Model again!

[wisteria-lodge]

badger primary + badger secondary (slightly burnt-out bird secondary)

 Hi, Wisteria! I’d love to get your perspective on my primary/secondary; it feels like I’ve been going in circles. This got so long omg, but hopefully it has everything you need. My guess would be that I’m a lion primary or snake primary (maybe burned?).

Interesting. Because Burned primaries... especially Burned internal primaries... often come across as an unhappy version of something else. Or else they think they're an *unsuccessful version* of something else. I'll keep an eye on that.

For secondary….not lion probably? I feel like I don’t really ~get~ lion secondaries, but they’re charmingly incomprehensible and have fun energy to bounce off of. This might be why I’ve dated multiple lion secondaries. An ex of mine once said that I was much more playful and sillier around them than with other people.

I'm wondering if you might be a Badger secondary. Courtier badgers can kind of unconsciously "bounce" off other people's energy like that, and the fact you didn't notice the change taking place, it had to be pointed out to you, makes me thinking that the shifting probably is unconscious.

I have a lot of Opinions about the proper/moral way to act in the world and they can be rigid (funny enough, lying isn’t on that list). I also tend to make most decisions into moral questions.

Oh that's some Bird primary energy right there. You're mentioning a list (even as a joke, even in passing) and you're talking about your Series of Opinions Which Answer Moral Questions, rather than "being passionate" or "being stubborn" or just listing me some of your positions... which would be the more Lion-flavored thing to do.

And not finding lying inherently morally objectionable - that's just a pretty standard utilitarian thing. I think that was John Stewart Mill's thing, it's only the purpose of the lie that's important.

Once I wanted to take a writing workshop that was kind of expensive. But I didn’t apply for one of the scholarships because I technically could afford the class, even though it was a stretch. Intellectually, I knew that it would’ve been fine but applying for the scholarship would’ve felt wrong.

Hm. The scholarship would have helped but it wasn't necessary... so you felt bad about taking away from someone who needed it more? That's sounding a bit like Badger primary need-basing to me. Badger? Badger-flavored Paragon Lion primary? I see what you're saying about Lion vs Bird though: intellectually knowing that something is probably fine, but not doing it because it just Feels Wrong is certainly Lion.

Things feeling “right” is so important to me. When I’m making a hard decision, I’ll make pro/con lists and talk it over with friends, but I’m always keeping an eye on my own gut feeling. It’s helpful when a friend suggests an option and my gut goes “NO”. Like, scratch that off the list! 

I mean, Birds *can* use their gut as decision-making factor. But because this anecdote is about problem solving strategies, it goes in the Secondary category. And this is pretty darn Badger secondary, using the group as such an important part of your problem solving strategy.

Normally I’d say something about wanting to try and make the world better but all I want to do right now is sit quietly and make art. That’s the burn out though.

That's a pretty idealist primary answer. But also... one you don't feel 100% great about, going by that caveat about "burn out." Starting to see why you think you might be specifically a Burnt Lion.

I’m usually fairly intense; a coworker once compared me to that army charging down the hill in the Narnia movie. 

That could honestly be any secondary, but what has me interested is that this is the second time you've used the words of someone outside of you (your ex, your coworker) to define yourself. Which is more of an external primary thing (Bird or Badger.)

(I framed it above as “making the world better” and that is something I really care about, but honestly, part of it is that I like winning.)

I mean, no one likes losing. And "making the world better"... like what person wouldn't say that? They'd all just have different ideas of what that meant.

Describing a fantasy feels overwhelming, my gut instinct is to say “feeling free” but that’s not concrete.

(correct :)

I guess my perfect day would be waking up early, getting lost in an art project for hours while bread bakes, going for a walk by the ocean, meeting up with friends for brunch, wandering around with them, getting the news that I won a prize for my art, having dinner with some other friends, and then going home to call a long-distance friend, read a book, and fall asleep cuddling my cat. 

Three separate outings with friends in one day! :D So what I'm getting from this is that community is really, REALLY important to you. Your perfect day involves meeting two groups of friends, catching up with a long distance friend (presumably someone who's harder to keep in touch with, so chatting with them is itself a bit of a fantasy in itself.) And then you win a prize, ie - you are recognized by the community for your art. Also fresh bread specifically is such a shareable baked good... and none of this is problem solving. I'm wondering if you might be a Badger primary, just going by how much community has been weighted in this ask so far.

One of my friends suggested that I might be a snake primary

And to keep count, this is the third time you are defining yourself with the words of someone in one of your communities.

because I value loyalty and friendship so highly. Most of my happiest moments, when I felt the safest, were being around close friends.

You use a lot of collective nouns, which is a trick I use to divide Snakes from Badgers (because of course, they're both Loyalists.) You've used the word "friends" five times. With Snakes I hear a lot more "my partner" "my sister" "my best friend."

I definitely rank people in my life, and I don’t feel bad about prioritizing my favorites over others.

Badgers do prioritize the people they like slightly more. Badgers are *people,* and people have preferences. But they are also very aware of who has the most *need.* Like that writing workshop scholarship: you didn't need it the most, and so you felt bad about taking it. I bet you would have felt equally bad if one of your friends who also didn't exactly need it applied.

However, I’m really, really bad at basic self-care (we’re talking “eating regular meals” and “getting enough sleep.”)

I mean, this can be evidence of all sorts of things I am not qualified to diagnose over the internet... but having trouble with self-care is something that Badgers historically struggle with. a lot.

(and something that Snakes, even Burned Snakes, don't really have a problem with.)

Also, I recently moved away from most of my friends for an incredible opportunity. I miss them, but I never seriously considered not going. 

I'm going to take a guess that this new opportunity involves a group of some kind. I mean, clearly you have a lot of different groups of friends, which is fantastic.

A different friend, who is a snake primary, pointed out that I always need some cause or project. I do tend to get caught up in things and vanish for a couple months but always reappear eventually.

That's interesting. Because so far, when you've talked about a cause or project, the the recognition/other people involved seems kind of key. You like "winning": It's "I won a prize for my art" not "I sold a piece." And that's amazing, that's a great way to keep up energy and motivation. It just means you've probably got an External primary. (Bird or Badger.)

I know it’s not healthy to be consumed by a Purpose but I want to be.

Going from the tone of this ask, you seem a very upbeat, lively, dynamic person. Except when you're talking about these Idealist causes. Then it goes from "my happiest moments, when I felt the safest, were being around close friends" to "I know I'll burn out" and "it's not healthy." Where is all that coming from?

It feels stabilizing, invigorating—and safer than centering people. I even get stressed about how much I love my cat. People can hurt you, or they can leave, or change. Or you could leave them, or hurt them, or make a bad decision on who to trust. It just seems so precarious and vulnerable. I’ve had a hard time my entire life opening up to people -

I'm just going to point out, that I've written a bunch of these, and objectively... it sure seems like you've opened up to a LOT of people during your life. Now, maybe that's not as many people as you would ideally like, but that's also kinda a Badger primary thing. In a perfect world, a Badger primary would like to be able trust everyone. But when doing that doesn't feel safe... then the Badger primary burns a little. And, Burned Loyalists have a way of looking like stressed-out Idealists. (the same way that Burned Idealists will look like stressed-out Loyalists.)

I'm honestly not getting much Burnt Badger energy from you though. Maybe like, a light toasting. On your bad days.

- or letting myself need them.

There we go. I mean partially, yes having trouble needing other people is a human thing. But Badgers primaries are so, so much happier being needed and useful themselves than the other way around. (It's why they tend to have boundary issues.)

I’ve cut friends out before and didn’t feel bad about it because they hurt people and didn’t take responsibility for their actions—

Sounds like they hurt the group? Which is a very Badger primary way of thinking about it, and a good example of Badger primary opt-out loyalty, versus Snape primary opt-in loyalty. A Badger will say 'I will care about you until you do xyz' while a Snake will say 'I won't care about you until you do xyz.'

but none of them were in my inner circle. On the other hand, I had a hard time setting up boundaries with an ex because I loved her and she needed help.

Boundary issues. Need-basing. (Badger)

(I used to wonder if she was a good person who sometimes did selfish things or a selfish person who was capable of great kindness. Eventually I decided the question was reductive and didn’t matter.)

I think you're right about that. I suspect we are all both, at different times.

My family is….complicated. I was the kid who had to be okay.

Ooof, I hear that.

Like, I started to organize the holiday cooking/baking schedules when I was a teenager. When I was a child, I went through some trauma that I kept hidden from everyone, including my parents, because, like, why would I tell an adult? What could they do? I was a mess, but learned how to seem like I was fine. I read my parents’ child psychology books so I could tell when they were using things from them on me. 

Yeah, this is brutal. It'd be brutal for anyone, but especially brutal for a Double Badger, which I suspect you are. You're describing a situation where, very young, your community just was not safe. It couldn't help you, or protect you, it was even trying to "trick" you (with child psychology methods.) And in that situation, what do you do? Well, you're a child so you go Invisible Badger, where your identity just /is/ whatever the group needs. And apparently... your family needed an easy kid who planned holiday get togethers.

My dad’s a double bird.

Maybe *that's* where some of your Birdy language is coming from.

My mom’s either a badger secondary or has a badger secondary model (maybe actor bird?). She has a very obvious Socializing Mode and it used to frustrate her that I didn’t follow suit. She once told me before a party “you’re charming when you want to be, so please want to” (the year before, I had brought my history textbook to this party so I could look studious and get out of talking to people). 

That is both very relatable, and has a number of potential causes. (I have a very hard time at a lot of holiday parties, I find them very overstimulating, and will absolutely find ways/excuses to tuck myself away for a little bit.)

Your mom strikes me as more an Actor Bird than a Courtier Badger. She just has this 'Social Mode' setting which she can just turn on, even if (presumably) she's not feeling it that day. And she thinks that you do too... but I think you might be wired differently. And that's the Courtier Badger thing: in the moment, you have to authentically /become/ the thing, or it doesn't work.

For years, I thought I was a bird secondary. I love systems, I love knowing things, I love having something in my back pocket. I even used to have a system to determine which color of heart emoji to text (it was based on the closeness of the friend and the level of affection expressed).

That's adorable. And honestly, very useful-sounding.

I find roles comforting. I used to do costuming for theater and I still pick out my own outfits like I’m dressing a character, paying attention to what mood/vibe it communicates.

All of that sounds extremely Bird secondary. I will say though... it sounds like you had to build a model to survive your childhood, you had to "learn how to seem like I was fine." Bird is the most common model to build (especially if your dad is right there as a model.)

The issue is I like roles until they feel restricting or boring or I’m annoyed and feel like causing problems on purpose. As a kid, I was fairly mischievous. I convinced this kid in my class that I had a treehouse in my backyard where two Dalmatians lived, just for the fun of it. 

That feeling of getting "stuck" in a role is absolutely something Actor Birds struggle with. This, and the example near the beginning about getting more Liony with your Lion friends, makes me think that what you really like is having the opportunity to bounce off other people's energy. I get that. It's what I'm doing right now.

Sometimes I find my plans and elaborate systems claustrophobic. I automatically reach for them when I’m feeling anxious, but do they actually help?

Sounds like your Bird model functions as coping mechanism. I mean it's also a toy that you like to play with, yes, with your costumes and your systems. But it doesn't sound like it's necessarily something that you want to live in.

But I don’t know how else to tackle problems.

I mean, I'm hearing that you like to reach out to your friends, and then have quiet periods where you just buckle up and do your own thing.

(I think that your Bird model is just a little bit... burnt out. You've been using it so much that it feels like a chore, and that's where a lot of this burnt secondary language is coming from.)

Still, planning can absolutely trip me up. Some of my most successful moments came from just reacting.

Courtier Badger (or Snake. And I guess a very social snake /is/ possible. But Snake secondaries, and especially Badger Snakes, have a way of being either a little more deliberate (or a little more *guilty*) when it comes their face-changing.)

I can’t do it deliberately though, I overthink. It just…happens. Like I’m bad at flirting if I try but I’ve accidentally hit on people before. There’s been multiple times where I’ve had dinner with a friend and then realized it accidentally turned into a date.

Yep. Relatable. Badger secondaries (and not just me) often talk about getting into a "flow" state where you're completely in tune with the other person, reflecting them or bouncing off them. Sometimes you're not even sure how you got to a certain place, and have to come back down.

Sometimes I’ll do things instinctively and then have to backtrack to explain my reasoning to others (when explaining how to filter information in a database, “vibes” is apparently an insufficient answer).

I feel the same way about editing. I *love* editing, and I am aware that at this point I edit based on "vibes." Like yes, I'm sure I could think about it and logically explain my choices, but that's not what the process in my head looks like.

If there’s nothing I can bounce off of or if I don’t know how to read a situation, I freeze up. 

This is why Badger is a Prep-Work secondary, even though Badger secondaries are not generally comforted by very elaborate plans the way that Birds are. You get better the more you know about a situation and the people who are involved with that situation.

I don’t think that I’m a badger secondary.

Interesting. :) Let's hear the reasoning.

I do work a lot, but it’s not in a consistent, methodical way. My phone lock screen used to say “Work until they get pissed about it.” Lately though, I’ve been wondering if this burn-out inducing work ethic actually leads to success. I’ve achieved things through sheer effort but

I'm wondering how much of this "methodical" work ethic is you over-using your Bird secondary a little bit. Too many charts, too much planning. I'm wondering if maybe your dad was like that... and maybe it worked for him, but it sounds like a chore for you.

it feels like I’ve gotten where I am more by learning how to be good at things, figuring out what situations need, and people liking me. 

That is a straightforward description of a Badger secondary. ESPECIALLY the 'figuring out what a situation needs' and 'people liking me.'

I do reflexively adjust to people’s energy around me. It isn’t conscious, but sometimes I shift too much and lose myself in it.

SO. BADGER. When I shift too much, I can have almost a slight hangover feeling afterwards.

Like, I’m so focused on the moment that I’m not thinking about a longer term strategy. 

Badger. (But you are prepping. Because you're learning.)

Shifting does feels like I’m fooling people a little. Improving my way through a meeting at work instead of being prepared ahead of time feels like I’m getting away with something or cheating.

Nope. That's the Bird secondary in your head talking.

Still, it comes in handy. I once was in a meeting about something I vaguely knew how to do, but it turned out that it was actually about this very technical aspect that I didn’t have experience in. So, as I was talking around the issue, I was googling and speed reading. 

See, this where I think Badgers actually do shine. Because yeah, you didn't know the specific topic. But you knew the other people there, you knew the company, you knew what was needed, and so I bet you were value added, even just keeping the energy up.

I really want to be this super organized, steady person but I’m just not. I’m mercurial, easily bored, and so restless.

It sounds like what works best for you is friends, and play, and that's something that can kind of go missing from your life. But you like you love your job, you're good at your job. And I think you need to give yourself (and your Bird secondary model) a break.

But I think I do need a routine? My old job was intense and I was constantly on call. Now I’m in a new job that is more predictable and has very flexible hours. I can go grocery shopping any day of the week and it’s overwhelming. I don’t know how to be structured without feeling stifled. 

Going from a job where you are constantly on call to one with flexible hours is just going to be an adjustment, no matter what. You've also just recently moved, and are presumably building up your community in this new place. I think you're going to be just fine. The fact that the job is predictable will help, the fact that you're working with other people will help.

Thank you for your time! Hope you have a good day!

You are very, very welcome. <3

Thank you to R for such an excellent submission. If you'd like a Sorting of your very own, commissions are open on my ko-fi. :D

If you'd like to read more about the system I'm using, my explanation is right here.

[wisteria-lodge]

lion primary + slightly burnt bird secondary

Hello ! I did the quiz twice with slightly different results and I wanted to have your opinion cause I'm having trouble figuring it out. I tried to keep it short, but it's 4 pages on my google sheet i'm sorry, if it's too long I'll cute some parts there's not problem ! 

Also, I hope it's the right "place" to send it, I wasn't sure. 

You're doing great, although all that apologizing his making me think we're going to run into some burning here.

PRIMARY 

Lion: “Lions are probably the most likely to forgive their enemies, if those enemies seem to repent and change.” → I always say that it’s how you end that matters, not who you were before. 

I mean, I would hope so. That's a human thing. The real question is what proof will you take that someone has really changed. That's where we start getting into primaries.

“For a Badger, it is not about sides or repentance; it is about the inherent worth of a human being. Badgers who value other people in that way can and often will help someone or forgive someone who they dislike, distrust, or disrespect.” → No way. Not everyone deserves respect or help. It’s better to be right than kind. And being kind to someone bad isn’t right. 

That's intense. And probably points to either a Lion (possibly a Badger defining people out of their community, it depends where the rest of this goes.) But I'm leaning Lion. This knee-jerk 'some people are just BAD' and 'it's WRONG to be kind to bad people,' is a Lion's felt morality. A Badger would be more likely to say something like 'lack of kindness CREATES bad people,' or that the kindness *itself* is moral, rather than the Lion classic 'it's better to be morally right than to keep the peace.'

Snake vs Lion: If Snakes will be loyal to their loved ones and they won’t leave them on any instance, but Lions will be willing to leave friends or family members behind if they disagree on some important values and principles, then I’m stuck between the two.

Family is very important to me. I’ve always been close to my parents, sister and brother. We share the same principles and we generally agree on the same things but there are still differences sometimes that bothers me (ordinary sexism for ex).  At one time, I was so pissed off that I didn’t want to see them during the holidays. But I feel like it’s my responsibility to make them understand my point of view and to educate them on certain subjects. I wouldn't do this much effort for people I barely know, but it’s my family and I don’t want to lose them. I think that if they were really intolerant and opposed to my principles, I would avoid them, but I would be really depressed about it. And I’ll never stop trying to change their minds. 

That's... a really really REALLY Lion primary answer.

I hate losing people. I’ve always wanted a friendship that would lasts forever. But I had this friend, she was “problematic”. But, bc she was my friend, I was avoiding some topics so that we could just chill. But she started to debate at parties, and me, hearing these things, I couldn't stay silent. And then she was like “you’re so annoying, we can’t say anything with you”. I tried to explain to her how I was feeling so she could understand me. But due to our disagreements and her refusal to listen to me, I ended our friendship.

Lion. Lions have a LOT of trouble nurturing friendships or close relationships with people whose stances don't line up with theirs. And it might be hard, but they ultimately feel good and kind of badass about giving those people reduced access to them.

It was a bit hard, but I won’t accept toxic relationships and intolerant people. 

Like, if you were a Snake, you would have just rolled your eyes when your friend started talking politics at parties, and changed the subject. It wouldn't have felt like it mattered all that much. I'm also considering Lion secondary to you, because going into hard-core debate at parties is a *choice,* and not one that everyone would make. Because like you say, it runs the risk of making you seem annoying, a buzzkill, holier-than-thou. But a Lion secondary is willing to take the hit, and they get a lot of their power that way.

“Ultimately, lions are about their principles, not people. No matter the means, if the end is what is needed, then it all works out.” → Principles are important because people are. When you fight for a cause, you fight for people. I think it’s more like Lions fight for people they don’t know personally, who can be different, because it’s right, whereas Snakes for instance can do that but it’s not their priority. As for the end justify the means, again, it depends on the situation. I wouldn’t agree with this every time. Also, I realized that if I knew everyone personally, I wouldn't fight for them, I would fight them.

Oh man, are either are really a Lion secondary, or just REALLY live in your primary.

(The rest of it is just people stuff)

I often wonder if people are worth it. (cf. wonder woman “they don’t deserve our help”). Like, I have the feeling that almost everyone is either sexist, racist, lgbtphobic, etc. when they’re not all of that at the same time. 

You know, I am going to pull up that scene from Wonder Woman. I want to talk about how it fits into this system.

DIANA: My mother was right. She said `the world of men don't deserve you.' That's why she left. They don't deserve our help.

STEVE: It's not about whether they deserve it or not. It's about what you believe. You think I don't get it? All I've seen out there? I wish I could tell you that there was one `bad guy' to blame. Maybe we're all to blame. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't try to do better. (beat) And if you believe this war should stop, Diana, if you want to stop it, then help me stop it.

Diana is a hurting Lion primary. It seems pointless, it seems hopeless, she's lost that burning moral certainty she had in the beginning. She doesn't even know if she wants to end the war anymore. But Steve is as Badger as Badger can get. He says it's a trap to talk about who 'deserves' saving, because everyone contributes to the whole, and all you can do push that whole back, or further into the light.

But that doesn't make sense to Diana. She's not really part of the whole, after all (she's both a really loud Lion, and an Amazon.) The argument that *does* make sense to her is the one she expresses later on.

DIANA: It's not about deserve... It's about what you believe... and I believe in love --

If you're a Lion, you *have* to believe in something, you just do. And Diana doesn't believe in people. She doesn't have to. She believes that love makes things better, and so she will love the world.

I believe that reformism is a tool when you have nothing else to ameliorate people’s conditions of life, but that only a revolution can change the system. But revolutions are violent, deadly, and even though I support it, would I be brave enough to give up my privileges, my life, my dreams, to fight for what’s right? I hope so. 

 I’ve always thought of Lion as the “activist." And I try to fight for what’s right. One day when I was a kid, my dad told me about the workers in the UK who went on strike for ONE YEAR in 1984-1985. He said some of them were so poor they had to eat rats and I was so shocked and admirative of their bravery that I still remember it years later. I’m always wondering if I could be as brave as them, and honestly, I don’t think so. But I try to be.

Strikes work. And I dunno. Everyone does suck, at least a little, and we should all do what we can to make ourselves healthier, wiser, better educated versions of ourselves. But that's kind of the point of Wonder Woman, and why it has to be set during World War I. People are capable of insane evil. But they're also capable of intense good, and if you burn it all down, you burn down the good too.

I try with small things, like saying what I think, not letting an injustice be unpunished. For example, my mother’s boyfriend said sexist and racist stuff so I stood up. I also try to do this at parties. It’s not easy bc i’m often portrayed as a buzz killer, a feminazi or else. But I feel really bad when I don’t do it, I feel guilty.  

You feel morally in the wrong (because you're a really loud Lion.) I'd watch that retribution streak though. That's something I tend to see with Exploded Lions.

Lion vs Bird:  Concerning my beliefs and principles, I like to have an opinion about everything bc I don’t believe in neutrality. Like, it’s okay not to know what to think about something, but it has to be temporary. I inform myself a lot. I want to know the truth, I believe there is one. Of course, reality is complex. But that doesn’t mean that there are not fair and unfair situations. Sometimes, it can be both. And for certain topics, I knew something was wrong even before getting some information and arguments, just cause I felt it was wrong. 

We've definitely got a little Bird secondary going on here. Could be a model you love. Could just be your secondary.

“They can often feel extremely strongly about something… but have trouble breaking down their argument or explaining why (at least in the moment). You’re more likely to hear something like, “it’s wrong because it’s just wrong” from a Lion. They have internal voices which are very important to them, and matter a lot when they make decisions.” → THIS !!!! For example with death penalty, I felt it was wrong without knowing anything around this debate. I only read and did research after. Sometimes, I do some research on a topic because I don’t have an opinion on it, other times I do this but I already have an opinion and I'm searching for arguments to justify it. 

Lion primary. And from one Lion primary to another, beware any black-and-white worldview. It's a thought-killer. But yeah, sometimes you have to go though the process of deciding *why* you think something.

“A Bird can explain the structure of ‘why’ they believe what they believe (and will probably be thrilled you asked. More importantly, they will be happy to field any questions and have a discussion about it. A Lion might do this… but it would be an all-around more stressful conversation, and not a fun thing to do over brunch.” → Reading this, I thought about all the debates I had about feminism, rape culture, the use of racist or homophobic slurs and yes this is stressful, because people say horrible things.

Of course, you're fighting from a place or morality (not practicality or utility, which is always easier.) And, chances are when you're debating these things, you're fighting for your survival and of course that's stressful.

(it's just not a fair fight, when only one party is risking getting hurt)

It’s not that I doubt my arguments and analysis, just that people are not easily convinced, even with facts. 

My take on this is that very few people are convinced by facts, and almost never in-the-moment. Debates are not meant to change the mind of the person you're debating. They're meant to change the mind of any observers that might be on the fence, or to get into someone's mind like a splinter and just sort of - wait their chance.

So yeah, don't let racist jokes slide (I wouldn't) but also don't... feed the trolls. There are a lot of people who want to make bad-faith arguments just designed to get you angry. And you can't teach people who don't want to learn. Just do your thing, be visible, and when those people are ready - they know where to find you.

“When Lions change their minds it’s a much messier situation, and takes a lot longer.” → Some of my opinions have changed, evolved. It’s unpleasant to see that we were wrong, but not everyone can be right every time. The important thing to me is to realize your faults and act better. But yeah, sometimes, it hurts. 

It does. But it sounds like you already know that the most important thing is to remember that you might be working with flawed/incomplete data just the same as everyone else, and *always* might be wrong.

“There are also [Birds] who believe that truth is discoverable, and there is a universal, objective truth, and that they have found it. Maybe it’s not perfect, but it’s solid, and they’re sure that if they explain it sufficiently to someone else, that person would also see the truth of it. [Bird] Primaries also value internal consistency. Hypocrisy means that something is off, and wrong, and it irritates them.” →  Hypocrisy is one of the things I hate the most specifically because it’s pure lies, denial and bad faith. I always make sure that I’m always in the truth and on the right path, and that I don’t let myself get carried away by my ego or else. Not always easy. 

I know that 'hypocrisy' is often held up as THE thing that most annoys Birds, but all your language here is really Lion. 'Denial' 'Bad faith' - that's feeling something is right and deliberately going against it (a lion would *hate* that.) And really intense, exploded Lions tend to get swallowed up by their ego... while intense exploded Bird almost have no ego at all.

 SECONDARY

I think the first time I did the quiz I had bird secondary, but the second time I did it, I had this result : Burned Snake Secondary.

Okay, that's really interesting. I totally see the Bird, but I never would have guessed *snake.*

It said that:  “It doesn’t feel deceitful to a Snake to change to fit the needs of their environment: to be kind with this person, forceful with this one, erudite to the next. This adaptability can be applied to manipulation, influence, and power, but a Snake secondary can just as easily focus their efforts on maintaining friendships, making people happy, encouraging positive social change, or streamlining communication.” → I’d feel bad if I was being nice to someone I hate except if the point behind this fake nice attitude was to trick them. Because then, it would be justified and not just because I’m scared to say what I think of them.

This seems to tie back to your primary. It's not uncommon for Idealists (Lion and Bird) to be REALLY against lying - even a little bit, in any circumstance. It's very Kant. BUT, if your primary was okay with lying for some reason... then of course lying would be all right.

But "being nice to someone I hate [because] the point behind this fake nice attitude was to trick them" isn't a Snake sentiment, because that wouldn't feel fake to a Snake. It wouldn't feel deceitful, it wouldn't feel like lying, it would feel like just a communication style.

If anything, what you're describing here sounds *more* like a situation specific Actor Bird - a you have a Nice!You, in order to get things from people you hate.

As a teen, I wanted to be myself,

Human stuff. (But that kind of existential how-do-I-define-myself angst is especially common with Lion primary.)

but I also wished for people to see my worth. I was searching for others’ validation and it often led me to elaborate a bunch of strategies to get noticed and “admired” where I needed to be a bit hypocritical sometimes. But this whole era is hard to explain. 

Glory Hound Lion primary. (It's common, it's a classic.)

“A burned Snake secondary might want to be flexible, adaptable, and clever, but they feel like they are (or like people think they are) clumsy, unobservant, or blunt.” → I sometimes feel like I’m dumb in the way like I’m not particularly cunning but I wish to be. 

Look... everyone thinks Snake secondaries are cool...

SNAKE : “They naturally create the mask, the persona, that the situation requires, and shift out of it just as easily.” → I try to put on masks to appear on my best day, especially with people I just met. But it’s so hard to keep it, I usually forget how I was supposed to act and talk, and end up being my normal self. But I like the cunning part, I don’t know if i’m good at that but I would love to be. I have this recent example where I wanted to know something about a friend of mine, but it felt weird and rude to ask her directly so I bypassed the topic and she told me what I wanted to know. 

I think all this is just being garden-variety polite. (Which you talk about as basically as an Actor Bird persona, that you don't especially love.)

I also try to adapt to people in order to convince them. I know how they can react and I adapt my speech to them, because if I don’t, they’re gonna reject it directly. But I don’t think I’m snake bc I can’t restrain myself from being myself. For example, when I was like 12, I was in this awkward situation where my friends and I were hanging out, and one of my “friends” mocked me, while the others said nothing. It was a habit : this girl bullied me but we still hung out bc we had the same friends. It happened to me again a couple of years ago. So I was shutting my mouth bc I was afraid of losing all my friends if I stood up. But eventually one day, I was so angry that I told them how I felt. Both times, one month is all I could endure of their bullying. And both times, when I spoke, it just slipped out. I really had zero control. And even though I was afraid of the consequences, it felt good to say the truth and not let them walk over me. 

Hmmm. I mean, no one likes being bullied. And just blurting out stuff unwisely because you're angry, that's just a person thing. It didn't make you feel strong after all, it make you feel out of control. Which is why it doesn't seem to point to your secondary.

In general, you seem pretty comfortable with the single-player version of your Bird secondary. But you're in process of getting comfortable with the multi-player version. You... don't totally trust your ability to use it yet, but I'm not sure I would call it burned.

I also had a LION MODEL which says that: “Lion values honesty and integrity. If you model Lion secondary, you also value these things and like to live by them. You like to be honest, straightforward, and consistent-- but you wouldn't feel guilty for abandoning those values in the service of other, higher priorities. It would be nice if you could always say what you mean and stick with it-- but sometimes you have to be circumspect, restrained, or practical, and you don't feel bad about that.” And elsewhere I red about Lions secondary that : “Every other secondary will act or wear different personas, but to a Lion that feels immoral.” → I don’t think it’s immoral, but sometimes i’m tired of pretending. In fact, I like to put on a mask and play a part if it’s to manipulate people I don’t like, or if it’s just to obtain information that I can’t have just by asking. But I hate situations where I have to be polite and pretend that I like people I can’t stand. For example, I’ll have to have dinner with my mother’s boyfriend who said racist stuff and I’ll have to be polite and it’s going to make me feel bad/guilty. I try to be more honest. 

When you HAVE to do things, it make them a lot less fun. That's just being human. Authenticity is - a presentation that you have given your consent to, free and clear, in the knowledge that you could have just as easily said no. It's fun to play a part and be nice when it's you deciding to do that all on your own, to get something you want. But playing a part and being nice because you HAVE to, because you have no other choice... no one likes that.

 LIONS : “They charge into situations and have faith in their intuition” → I can feel in my gut that a situation is unfair

That's your primary talking.

but for general topics in everyday life, when I have a choice to make, I can’t decide. Choices are hard for me. I’m not an improviser, I plan everything. But sometimes, I wish I could let go of things. 

I'm really doubling down on Bird secondary for you. And feeling sort of stuck, incapable of making a practical decision - that's something I see with Bunt secondaries, *especially* with Burnt Bird secondaries.

“Lions solve problems by being committed (or stubborn.)” → I made myself a promise when I was a child, to never give up. I don’t even feel like I have a choice, I don’t like to give up on things or people, so I will always try. I only give up when I have no other choice.

That's your primary talking again. (You have a very loud primary)

BIRDS: When I was a kid, I wanted to be the smartest in the world like Einstein and thought that knowing everything by heart was enough 😂

Ooooh... young Bird. Such classic young Bird secondary.

Sometimes I’m scared not to have time to learn enough in my lifetime. And one of the reasons why I want to realize documentaries as my job, is to learn, and teach people. I want to give people information and try to make them understand things, and maybe change their minds, make them see the truth. 

I think you'd be a fantastic documentarian.

(Also? You've collected quotes about the different primaries and secondaries from at least three different sources, collected them here, and arranged your response around them. A very Bird secondary problem solving method.)

Since I was a child, it’s really hard for me to take decisions because first, I want everything lmao, and secondly, I'm always making sure I have all the information and I'm always waiting for the "perfect moment" so I just freeze in place.

A lot of Bird secondaries have this problem. And hate the idea that they're never going to know everything, or KNOW that something is the perfect moment. A Lion primary comes in handy here - sometimes you just have to kick your butt into doing *something*... because doing nothing is just as much as choice as everything else.

I love to-do lists. I love traveling and I make super detailed lists about the countries I want to visit and the things I wanna do and see in order not to forget anything. Because I don’t wanna miss a thing. I’m always afraid of wasting my time and life. I’m not against improvisation sometimes, but not when it could waste the only chance I have to do/see something that really matters to me. I know I want control over everything, and I’m a bit of a perfectionist too, often leading me disappointed. 

Bird. And watch that perfectionist streak. You'll never do anything if you only accept immediate perfection.

Badger : “Rather than an integrity of performance (as with Lion Secondaries, who must be themselves or wither), there is an integrity of method with Badger. Things must be earned. Interactions and achievements must be fair.”→  I do want to earn my success. But when it comes to decisions that have an impact on people, I wouldn’t mind using manipulation and lies. If, for example, the only way to legalize abortion at some point in one’s country was to threatened anti-abortion voters to make them change their votes, I would do it, because first I don’t mind if they got scared and most of all, because the stakes are too high.

Kind of an interesting way to end, okay. And let's unpack this.

First off, it's definitely not a Badger answer. A Badger would say that a victory built on an unstable foundation, like a foundation of fear, of propaganda, of misinformation, is never going to be a *lasting* victory. But Badgers generally take longer to get where they're going, and sometimes you *do* need something to happen *now* or someone's going to die, which is pretty much the only place threats of violence have. I mean, fear is just a bad motivator. It's that whole consensual behavior thing. If you only do something because you're afraid of what will happen to you if you don't, then you just get resentful and better at hiding.

You also like these hypothetical power fantasies. "If the only way to legalize abortion was to blackmail/exhort/threaten the friends and family of the people behind an anti-abortion bill, would you do it?" It's a fun philosophical question in a trolley problem kind of way, but practically - that's never going to be the case because the world isn't that simple. I get that you're young, I get that you feel powerless, I get that the idea of scaring these people that say things that scare you feels good. But I get protective of young firebrand Lion primaries, because we *do* need you, and I *don't* want you to burn yourself out. OR hit that "Everyone not with me is an enemy" mindset, which just narrows down choices and possibilities.

Stay strong. Find some good friends. Don't let your mom's boyfriend give you a hard time. You're going to be okay.

[wisteria-lodge]

Hello, I know you're not a Bird but I was wondering if you could talk about what happens to Bird primaries when they burn? I'm pretty sure I'm an idealist and I think I may be burnt so I've been considering Lion but honestly the way I reach my conclusions is very Bird and that doesn't seem to be hurting me to the degree of seems to hurt actual Burnt Lions. So could you please talk about burnt Birds of you have time/are interested?

I’m actually going to open the floor to any Bird primaries in the SHC community, because I’d also like to know more about what being a Burnt Bird primary feels like. And how exactly does it feel different from “welp, turns out that thing I used to believe is wrong. Better run a re-calibration.” Lions find that sort of thing incredibly emotionally taxing and stressful, but it doesn’t even seem to *bother* most Birds.

[wisteria-lodge]

lion primary + burnt rapid-fire bird secondary (snake model)

Hi! I’m really enjoying your page and was wondering if you might help me to find my sorting? I can’t settle on Chill Lion Primary or Snake Primary.

I seem to be able to leave friendships really easy

Not *Badger,* maybe? Because Snake can be friends with people who aren’t Inner Circle. Depends on what level of loyalty we’re talking about here… need more data.

if the choice is a stranger in need vs. my closest friend, it would be a stranger I would feel worst for abandoning, but I probably only deeply care about my family members, and friends only to some extent and helping someone in need would make me feel as a better person than just not turning my back on a friend.

… THAT is not a Snake primary answer, I can tell you that for sure.

When I was a kid and my mom would have a fight with my stepfather, I would always side with my mom, even if I knew she was not really right. I did not want to hurt her, but now when I am older, I know how important it is to stand by what you see as right, so I try to d talk about seeing things from both sides, even though I will still stand by her side in the end, probably. There is not much I can do for the people I care about, but when I am given an opportunity to protect and fight for them, I will.

There’s something interesting going on here. Because clearly you acted in a super Snake way when you were younger (‘they might be wrong, but I’m still going to defend them’) but… you felt bad about it. And you definitely *feel* bad about it, in retrospect.

Especially with that situation you gave me right there… I would not be at all surprised if you were expected to model Snake, or even forced to model Snake when you were younger.

But I deeply believe ‘the root of all evil’ is only caring about your own. I think that is selfish and cold.

Yeah. I think you may have an unhealthy Snake influence in your life. The conflict between Loyalists and Idealists is very near the heart of this system, and they do go back and forth, with Loyalists seeing Idealists as ruthless and cruel, Idealists seeing Loyalists as… yeah, selfish and cold. The way I see it, both are beautiful and expansive and know things the other needs to learn - and both can also be warped, and unhealthy, and scary.

I think I would be a better person if I had something to believe in, if I would fight for something bigger than me. I have not found it. Or maybe I did, but there is not much I can do about it. I can not incorporate it into my life apart from personal small actions, and I want to do more

This is very much a Lion primary dream. And I just want to say that the Lion dream does not have to be huge and all-encompassing in order to be meaningful, and real, and fulfilling.

Or maybe I just want an easy and lazy life, just doing what I like and just a bit more and that’s it. Sometimes it is like that too, I believe.

And you know what, that’s kind of a Lion primary mood too :)

I wouldn’t say standing by people you most care about is morally right, but it is a damn strong force.

Still Lion. Like OF COURSE if you can stand by both your morals and your people, that’s IDEAL.

As much as I can remember, I never had anything big and idealistic to believe in, apart from not hurting others, and a lot of what I believe in now is based on that.

You *want* something big and idealistic to believe in, to be happy and fulfilled. That’s still Lion, even if no Cause has clicked with you yet. (I suspect you’re a little burned, which can’t be helping.)

So I was always really harsh to people who I thought were selfish.

Again with this negative Snake influence.

I thought I was a Lion Secondary, but more and more I keep noticing how much I am using honesty as a tool.

Hmmm. Could be a Snake secondary tactic, but Birds do like their tools….

Sure, being yourself is the easiest thing in the world

… everyone does not feel this way. You’ve got strong Lion in your sorting somewhere.

but it also allows you to be seen as readable and trustworthy in your words. I know how much I can shift words or tone just a bit. Sometimes it feels like I am watching from inside, going “oh, you’re doing this now?”

That’s interesting. The way you’re describing thing - the slight arm’s length, knowing the mask is a mask, but also not planning the mask - is making me think more Snake. Although Actor Bird *is* possible.

I am very emotional, and I find it hard to distinguish my morality and moral choices from just general things I do and want.

… so you’re a Lion primary.

So the only other primary on my list could be Lion, which I find hard to understand. How can things turn from some tug of the heart to a full-fleshed ideal? My belief – trying not to hurt people and all that is related to it, in my mind, still comes from a grounded reality, from the fact that it hurts me to see someone being hurt. It’s not because it was idealistically formed somewhere. I think I probably don’t understand this correctly.

Lion primaries aren’t jedi. Their ideals don’t get magically beamed into their heads from some outside force. Lions reason just the same as Birds, they just use a different part of their psyche to do it. The fact that your morality (at its core, at its base) comes from the way things make you feel… that is what makes you a Lion. Birds don’t process things that way.

Maybe this sounds a bit like a Badger Primary, but there is no place for a group in my morality, in my life. Neighbors? Pffft, just let us live in peace and leave us alone. Groups are unpleasant usually. Maybe if you could choose people you like and click with them. Of course, acceptance is important, but it will never be the basis of anything. Have I never had an important group in my life? Maybe, but that would either mean I have been burned for a long time or I am just not a Badger Primary.

You’re not a Badger primary. And while it’s not a universal thing, I would say that Lion primaries tend to be the *most* comfortable with being loners, or spending extending periods of time as loners.

Of course, I use my brain and prioritize in the moment and use logic. I am not a sweet and nice badger girl, although I will be nice and smile and act my part, and sometimes you do hurt someone by telling the truth or putting yourself first, because I also don’t want to hurt myself if I have a different choice.

This is all starting to sound very snake secondary. The practicality, and twisting, and changing in the moment. Although maybe there’s a Badger performance in there?

Even if I can’t feel what others are feeling, I have something informing me about what they might be feeling. Do I care about not hurting my neighbor? It’s more like I care about not hurting myself by getting into a bad situation with them, being shouted at or having other kinds of problems with them, but that’s still some kind of motivation

Move around the problem, be like water.

Honesty is an idealistic value, and I like it, but I think it probably just makes my life easier, easier to read people and be read.

Snake secondary.

I think I also strongly believe in persons’ right to be and express who they are, that’s why I grew up hating gender stereotypes and not really playing into social rituals. I just want to be seen and liked for who I am.

Lion primary.

My Secondary? It probably burned to ashes. Thinking about how I am doing stuff, improv vs build, it just gives me a headache. Improvisation gives me stress, it gives me hell, but it’s the easiest way.

I mean, all the stuff you’ve been talking about - reading people, putting on the right face, changing direction - absolutely counts as improvisational.

Planning, preparing? Lovely, usually -  access denied. I just go head first just because I don’t know any other way and have no interest or energy to search for it. I am easily bored, so even if I wanted to work, prepare, research, I would lose interest so fast that there would be no use in even trying.

I don’t think you’re a Badger secondary - but it’s just hard to tell because you are so down on your secondary in general. You’re telling me that prepping in theory is lovely but you don’t know how to do it? (not that you don’t LIKE it. That you CAN’T do it.)

I always thought I would finally find something I wanted to work on, something I would enjoy putting time and energy into, but that does not seem to come true.

That’s some more of the angst of your charred/unfulfilled Lion primary coming though.

I am disappointed in myself. You know, it would be very nice if I could be witty and smart and improvise in the moment, but I’m not,

So you *like* Snake secondaries at least.

so I just gave up some time ago and now usually go straight with my head first. At least I’m getting the experience I would never get any other way.

Your secondary is burnt, for sure. But just reading between the lines here… I think you’re much smarter and more capable than you give yourself credit for.

I think if I were to be a Lion Secondary and constantly do this, I wouldn’t feel the heaviness over my secondary.

That’s another big sign of a burnt secondary. Doing things isn’t fun, it’s heavy, it’s a chore, it’s a slog.

Okay, let’s talk about recipes and cooking. I will follow the recipe, at least until I get what is going on, which flavor does what, why is this and not that. Then I can ditch it. I can add whatever I want later on. If I know which parts are the most important, I might not even need the recipe.

… okay, so this suddenly sounds a LOT like a Rapid-Fire Bird

Imagine a world where they give you a recipe for an apple pie and say make a pie. You follow it, your pie looks fine. Then, when they taste it, they tell you, Oh, you didn’t know, you needed to use sour apples. You didn’t figure that out on your own? No, dagnabit, I was concentrating on making an apple pie for the first time in my life. I had no experience of this thing. I didn’t know what it would be. Then they tell you, Oh, maybe you needed to use coconut sugar or something else, or maybe should have figured out yourself that it’s too sweet or that you hate cinnamon, or maybe your oven is not working properly, so you need to deal with that. Yeah, that’s how I feel about life and its problems and people.

Oh that’s interesting. Because what *this* bit is sounding like… is the angst of a Built secondary dealing with a lot of Improvisational secondaries. I’m think you’re a Bird… with a lot of Snakes and Lions in your life.

Every chance I get, I try to tell people these little small things that you somehow supposedly had to figure out on your own. You need to crack the system first to know how you can break it the best way to achieve your goals. Life, problems, people are systems I will never be able to crack. There is nothing to grab onto, so that’s why freefalling headfirst is the best and the easiest option.

OH. Burnt bird secondary. Snake model.

Btw, I am reading other submissions while writing this, to not go completely out of the path and get any ideas that would be valuable. I do like to have a net behind me to catch me if I fall, ha.

And another little detail that sounds very Birdy.

So I’m reading you as a Lion primary with a Rapid-fire Bird secondary. Your primary is burned a little, and your secondary is burned a lot. And a big part of the reason for that is that you’ve got people around you expecting you to use a Snake model all the time, and you *do* have one, you do. But it feels heavy to you right now. You don’t hate it, but you’d rather use Rapid-Fire or maybe Actor Bird. And that might be feeding into the general Anti-Snake sentiment I’m seeing here.

[wisteria-lodge]

Hi, I really enjoy reading your blog and was wondering whether you could expand on Alice Liddell's Hufflepuff secondary? I've always seen her as a Ravenclaw secondary, but would like to how you sorted her. TIA!

In the book, we spend a lot of time listening to Alice’s internal monologue, and what we get is so Bird - but much more Bird primary flavored. She is frantically trying to figure out the rules of Wonderland, comparing them to the rules she’s learned back home, getting frustrated when she runs into things that contradict each other or don’t make sense... Alice is trying to build a system, and Wonderland is not making it easy. But she’s not really picking up skills or tools, or making plans the way a bird secondary does. Alice’s method of solving problems and going though the world is - be polite. Make friends. Let the Queen cheat. Ask for help. Badger secondary stuff. Sarah Williams of Labyrinth - definitely a modern Alice update - she’s a Bird secondary. 

But Sarah and Alice are both modeling Bird primaries over Burned Lion primaries, so they have extremely similar triumphant beats. Sarah tells the Goblin King “you have no power over me,” and Alice tells the Queen of Hearts, “why, you’re nothing but a pack of cards.” They get powerful when they reject authority, reject the narrative they’re being fed, and trust themselves. I have always, always seen Alice in Wonderland a really good metaphor for an un-Burning Lion primary.

[wisteria-lodge]

do you have any advice on how to tell the difference between a snake primary, an idealist who's adopted the snake ideas of "my people and interests first", and a badger with a tiny circle of who they consider people? also, i'm trying to sort someone who might be a snake secondary with a bird model and i HATE it even though i am one, because it's so hard to tell which one is the actual secondary and which one's the model.

@sortinghatchats describes the Snake primary as the “immovable object,” and I like that. Snakes ideals are personal and small. So when they’re truly threatened, they are able bring out this intense no. you back off. this is mine. They can do that, because there aren’t too many things that really matter. And they’re possessive. Snake primary love looks like possession, Badger primary love looks like service.

Idealists, even idealists with very Snake-looking moralities, are a lot more twisty. I don’t get that solidness  from them; that willingness to say I will stand against the world, I will stand against god, I will lie, cheat, steal but I will protect what’s mine. 

And oh man, a Badger with a really narrow definition of “people”? Just look for the dehumanization. Are the people outside their circle just not as important (the way a Snake thinks about it) or are they undeserving, impure, monstrous, childlike. Badgers who define narrowly are really nasty. (And are not to be confused with Burned Badgers, who would love to live in a world where they are free to love everyone, but don’t, so they try to make themselves content with just their small community. Snakes are happy with their small circle. Badgers keep try to expand out.)

(And yeah, when you’re sorting someone with a really strong model, especially one that they clearly love and use a lot, it’s really hard to know which is the model and which is the secondary. I guess check to see which tool falls most naturally to their hand when they’re pushed to their limits? Also, people build models for specific reasons or for specific people. So, trying to find a start point/origin for certain behaviors can get pretty good results.)

[wisteria-lodge]

Your last post about burned primaries made me wonder about two questions that seem interesting to think about.

1) Is it normal for Burned Hufflepuff primaries to switch between "Humanity is just a crowd of stupid agressive apes, and I hate it" and "Humans are just stupid apes, but I still love them"? As I can see from my experience, such mood changes are quite common among a particular type of people's personality, and for me it seems quite badger-ish, but I am not sure.

2) You say that Burned Ravenclaws may be very flustrated by the natural evils, like death and sickness. But there is also an opposite point of view - some people tend to accept death, illnesses and other natural evils as nor actually evils, but as laws of nature, core processes that allows the Universe to exist (Circle of Life, and so on). Such people accept it as a thing that doesn't depend on them, and prefer to build a community which would be able to live in harmony with this laws, minimising negative impact on themselves but not trying to break this laws at the core, still staying a part of the Circle even if they prefer to have progressive hi-tech community around them. Is it more of an Idealist or Loyalist philosophy?

1) Oh yeah. That’s some Burnt Badger right there.

2) The interesting thing about Birds in this system... is that it doesn’t really matter what they believe. It only matters how they came to their conclusions. It’s the Aristotle vs Plato thing - Aristotle says that the realest real things exist outside of you (Ravenclaw/Bird) and Plato says that the realest real things come from inside you (Gryffindor/Lion). 

So there might be one Bird who has a massive problem reconciling the problem of Natural Evil. And another Bird who says - no, the earthquake itself was not evil, it was the lack of disaster preparedness, the lack of response, the hubris of building the wrong kind of building on a fault line, that was evil. That’s Rousseau’s example that I’m stealing, and he seems very Birdy to me. 

[wisteria-lodge]

i am a carbon copy of bird primary / lion primary anon lol (i even have the lion secondary!)… ;-; but i think i'm lion as of now. any tips to unburn, or to make a(nother) decision when the thought "you're bird" comes back again? thanks!

My Unburning Lion Primary Playlist: 

~ Inspirational Moodboard

~ Unburning Lion: Alice in Wonderland metaphor

~ My Unburning process

~ Castiel the Healing Lion 

~ Thank-you note from an Unburning Lion 

~ “I’m Still Here (Jim’s Theme)” - A Lion-who-wants-to-heal sort of song

[wisteria-lodge]

What do you think happens when a Snake primary's "me and mine" morals encounter a huge internal conflict (choosing which member of their inner circle to prioritize)? And also their Snake primary conflicts with their constructed morals? E.g. their constructed morals say interfaith relationships are right, but their mum says interfaith rps are wrong; they would follow their mum but they have a diff-faith partner they really love. (1/2)

They start a secret relationship so they can keep their partner and pacify their mum, but it feels like their Slytherin primary is always torn between their mum and their partner, and they know it can't last

This is really two questions:

1. What happens when a Loyalist primary has to choose between loyalties? 

This could be a Snake primary whose Important People are in conflict with each other - or a Badger who belongs to multiple communities that don’t get along. 

And the answer is - well, they write stories about this. The Rivers of London series is about a Badger primary who is a wizard, and a cop, and from a huge extended Sierra Leonean family, and his three communities are in conflict constantly. White Collar is about a Snake primary who is forced to choose between members of his inner circle pretty much every episode. And either you pick one, and that’s a brutal thing, or you find a way to get the different parts of your world to agree, or at least talk to each other. 

2. What happens when a Snake primary thinks that one of their People is fundamentally wrong about something important? 

I honestly don’t think it changes much. Like, sure it won’t be the most fun thing in the world. Snakes like to model the moralities of the important people in their life. But they don’t have to. Snakes don’t require their people to be infallible. And actually, if you have an important person in your life who low-key does need to remain infallible... you’re probably a Burnt Idealist.