#bird secondary vs badger secondary

[reds-burrow]

Most common disconnect between my Badger Secondary Mom and my Bird Secondary Dad: My dad likes to know things for the sake of knowing them. My mom prefers to know things that she can apply to real life and finds other tidbits extraneous.

Another disconnect: My mom prefers to dive into working on projects. My dad likes to research things first to make sure he's using the most efficient method.

Another difference (but not really a disconnect): When my dad tells stories, it's often based on facts he's learned. When my mom tells stories, it's mostly based on her experiences and anecdotes she's heard from others.

[alix-in-july]

Vampire Academy (book)

A main theme in Vampire Academy is love vs. duty. The authority figures are constantly scolding Rose for breaking the rules in order to protect her people, but she is ultimately shown to be in the right.

Rose: Snake Lion. Everything is about Lissa and eventually Dimitri in later books. She's got the typical Snake hedonism because she missed the drunken boarding school festivities while they were on the run. It's at least heavily implied that she was hooking up a lot before they ran away from school. She hates her mother for choosing duty over her. She has a Bird model about her role as a Dhampir, but whatever duty she feels is always second to her special people. The thought of being assigned to guard anyone but Lissa is horrifying. Her secondary is obvious. She's terrible at lying and is constantly holding herself back from punching people in the face. Not always successfully.

"...when something sets me off, I tend to punch first and then find out who I actually hit later. When it comes to those I care about being in danger . . . well, rules seem optional..”

Lissa: Double Badger, Snake model for Rose, Snake secondary model. Lissa feels guilty that all these Snakes are willing to cause trouble for her. She is passionate about animal rights and not letting people take advantage of others. She has a Snake model for Rose but it is the exception to the rule. She's a healer and goes to other people for help solving problems. Her solution to a vicious rumor about Rose was to make friends with all the important people and convince them one by one that it was a lie. She used a Snake model for some of that but hates dishonesty in general.

“And I keep thinking about all the things I could do, all the people I could help.” She looked regretful.

Dimitri: burned Snake Badger? At the end of the first book, Dimitri tells Rose he can't fall in love with her because if she's in danger, he won't be able to be a dutiful guardian. He'll abandon his duty and put her first. Rose describes him as patient and meticulous on several occasions. I could have his primary wrong. He's really reserved.

Christian: Snake Lion. He's known Lissa for less than a month and sets someone on fire for upsetting her. The most angry, vicious insult he gives someone in the first book is calling them a liar. He and Rose are very alike so it's odd she distrusted him so much at first.

Natalie: Snake primary, Snake or Bird secondary. She was willing to do anything for her father. Her secondary is probably some combo of Snake and Bird because of all the lying and plotting she had to do in Book 1. We don't really see enough of the real Natalie.

Victor: Lion Bird. He wanted to become King to save the Moroi. Definitely not a Loyalist because he doesn't care at all about his daughter or anyone else as people. He sees Natalie and Lissa as tools and is willing to kill people in cold blood to get them out of his way.

[mooglesorts]

went out for a long walk earlier, had a lot of Snake Secondary Thoughts i was excited to post/reply when i got home. accidentally took a wrong turn on the way back and ended up taking a VERY LONG walk, ran out of energy to actually write down the things for the moment fshdfklhsdfsdf

[wisteria-lodge]

Really excellent, succinct breakdown.

ugh i am so confused on my secondary :/ the one that i know im not is lion because i do the face switching thing with every person i talk to- even via text. its not a conscious thing either, it just happens & has always been this way & i enjoy doing it! but im unsure if its snake face-switching, badger mirroring, or actor bird. i just take someones energy and reflect it back at them- but the snek neutral state does resonate with me. there's a "me" under all the layers but its still... (1/2)

(2/2)..but its still very actor-y/mirror-y. the only time im not putting on any layers/pretty blunt is when im super apathetic or sick. im kind of a shitty improviser in certain areas but good in others, if that means anything. kinda makes me sound rapid-fire birdy or just a built sec in general lol. i do the bird *unconsciously hoarding info* thing haha which is nice, but im also usually suprised at my good rep/how much people seem to like me. any tips on telling between these 3? thanks paint!

Last ask before I crash for the night -w-

I have a couple asks about similar stuff, how to tell these kinda similar-looking secondary tools apart... let's talk about it for a bit here. Hopefully I'm not too asleep to make sense. I was just gonna write a quick post about it, but being concise is hard >.<

Courtier vs Actor vs Rapid Fire vs Snake (bonus: vs Lion)

Courtier Badger mirroring

Showing someone the parts of yourself you think they'd find most relatable. They end up feeling liked and accepted by you because they feel you're similar to them.

All of this is genuine on your part, at least in the moment--you're kinda bad at faking it. It's difficult or impossible to mirror someone you really dislike.

Actor Bird masks

You can play a role ("professional," for instance) or turn the volume up on some of your traits (e.g. "friendly/extroverted/music lover/charismatic") to make a mask. This is a way you can act, and it doesn't have to be as genuine as a Badger's mirroring, though it probably takes less energy if it is.

Once you've gotten into character for a mask, it can take a bit to change out of it. It's kind of a mindset shift, and it's hard to fluidly change into a different behavior set without seeming to contradict yourself. Masks don't easily adjust on the fly.

Rapid Fire Bird bricolage

You have background knowledge, skills, experience, and/or resources related to a whole lot of different topics. You're creative, resourceful, and good at recombining past tools into current solutions.

You might also use Actor Bird masks as part of your toolset. Actor + RF Bird doesn't = Snake, but can seem similar at first glance.

Snake improv

You're making this up as you go along, and you're totally cool with that. You're not really afraid that things will go wrong, because you know you can recover and just pivot into something that will work better. You're willing to experiment with different tactics, watch them work or fail in real time, and adjust on the fly.

You don't mind acting differently toward different people. Your act doesn't have to be genuine, the way a Badger's would. It doesn't have to be prepared, either, and you don't get stuck in it like an Actor Bird might. You're great at using whatever resources are around you, but you didn't necessarily prepare any in anticipation of needing them. You may or may not start out with a plan, but you have no problems with dropping it if you see an opportunity come up that you want to take.

If you're dropped into a situation where you have no clue what's going on and no prior experience and no tools and you don't know anyone, you're probably still fine. A Bird in those circumstances would either panic, or withdraw and become an observer until they feel they've gathered enough information to know what to do.

Lions being Lions

All this talk about code-switching and changing how you act is uncomfortable. Why would anyone want to do this? How can you get good results like this??? Nope. Nope.

You kinda just do stuff. You're resilient, even stubborn. You don't go in for half measures. You don't give up easily. Snakes pivot all the time, but you don't--you bulldoze a straight line through your projects and problems, without necessarily thinking ahead. It usually works out, which confuses the heck out of other people sometimes, but hey, it's just how you roll!

Final note

You might model or perform any of these in addition to your actual secondary. (Info about models and performances can be found near the bottom of this page on the SHC WordPress.)

You could be a Badger who's specifically learned to use Bird masks, for instance. It's up to you which words you think best describe you and the tools you use ^^

[amai-no-ura]

I've been thinking about this lately, and I'm curious to know what you think: By definition, systems like sorting hat chats put something relatively simple (their structure) on something incredibly complicated and ever-changing (life). How do you use it to your advantage without ignoring the many pitfalls?

One thing I love about SHC is that it is observable and applicable in real life. You can see people being Lion primary, Snake primary and how they interact with their numerous skillsets. You can see all of that in action. I think my way of applying it is to use it as a template where I interpret experience and people I meet. I don't think everything has to fit into SHC structure, because people are complex. But something can be explained using the system.

Like, why do my aunt, mum and stepfather all think I'm selfish? Because they are hardline loyalists (Badger with Lion model, Snake and Badger with Bird model respectively). They couldn't understand how I could sacrifice people for my goals/career/life path because they would NEVER do it. But I also couldn't imagine myself putting people first over what is right for me (goals, ambition, ideals). I'm Lion primary, hence why I have always been drawn toward goals and personal choice. It is empowering to me the way my loyalist family will never understand.

I can see that play out in real time independent of personal experience coloring it (no biases, no emotional expectation, no cultural influence, just how they function as a person). Hence I believe this theory has merits.

Or about the secondary. I'm snake sec, meaning I always prefer adaptability and fluidity over brute force. My aunt is Lion secondary, so she will always prefer directness and transparency over any trickery. That's the underlying formula of these secondaries. For Lion, it is transparency and solidity. For Snake, it is fluidity and adaptability. Even if my aunt is diplomatic, very good at hiding her thoughts, she is still Lion secondary. Meanwhile, I'm very direct and open but underneath all of that, I'm still a fluid Snake.

My coworker is a bird sec. He relies on his organization skills, built knowledge and systematic learning to get things done. He does really well in structured environment because that's how his mind operates. I thrive on unpredictability. I don't do well in structured learning courses or something like that. I thrive on real experience where I can adapt and face them hands-on. It's the heady energy of bird vs raw, hands-on approach of snake.

Then, I will use all these information to my advantage by adapting my language and methods to match the people in question. My boss is double Lion (and also ESTJ 8w7, so even more directness), so I won't beat around the bush with him and be honest always. My coworker is Badger sec (also ESFJ 6w7), so I wait for her to do her badger thing instead of rushing through it. Another coworker of mine is snake sec (ESTP 7w6), so I play with him using my snake. Etc, etc. Or when I have to charm a Snake primary, I show them how much my family means to me (lies) and how much I care about my people (truth) because that's what they value. If I have to interact with fellow lion, then I'll just respect their goal and encourage them on their path (because that's what we crave).

Another thing to note is I supplement SHC with other systems like MBTI and Enneagram. So all of them play a part in my application in real life. Like ... my boss is ESTJ 8w7 so/sp and Double Lion meaning he has a LOT of directness, strength and protective tendency. I know instantly he respects strength (8w7 + Double Lion), competency (Te-dom in general, as well as his personal values) and fair character (his Fi-inferior values + being so/sp). So I cater to all of that by not performing too much, just be frank with him in almost everything. Speak up for myself and everyone else, showing up for work. Always bettering myself and make sure to become a better person. That's how I get on his good side (and it benefits me too, since I become a better person).

So, I think that's how I apply it in real life. But what about you? Do you do the same thing as I do? Or is it something else entirely?

And for anyone seeing this, do share how you use SHC in real life! I'd love to read them all.

[missbrunettebarbie]

Hi! Do you know the maurderers era students hogwarts houses? I read that Snape was a Snake/Bird and Peter Pettigrew is a Lion/Badger but what would the rest be in your opinion? I think James is a double lion, Lily a lion/bird, Remus a lion/bird with a badger model, and Sirius a Snake/Lion. Bonus!: I think regulus black was a snake/bird or a double bird with a snake model for his family.

Hello, nonnie. I have to confess, the Marauders were never my favourites characters, but I'll try to do my best. Iirc, I think @awinterrain and @the-phoenix-heart have talked about them befoere, but I am going to throw in my two cents.

Peter Pettigrew - He was sorted here by @wisteria-lodge I find the arguments very compelling, so yeah, I agree on Lion Badger for him.

Remus Lupin - Probably the hardest to sort, because I don't really care about him, like, at all. I agree Bird secondary seems likely. I could also see Bookkeeper Badger, but eh, let's say Bird. I disagree on him being an Idealist because the most memorable of scenes for me was in book 7, when he wanted to joing the trio and Harry accuses of him of running away from his family because he's scared of failling as a father. I think an Idealist would have pointed out that helping defeat Valdemort is the best thing he could do for his family, but he doesn't. We are left with the sense that Harry was right. And indeed, running away in order to protect people seems to be his MO. He was absent from Harry's life for 12 years and then disappeared again in Year 4. And as much joy as he gets from teaching, he doesn't fight for it when he's fired. IMO, he's a burned Badger primary that dehumanizes himself and doesn't allow himself a community.

Sirius Black - I think it would be impossible to sort him as anything but a Snake Lion. Clearly His Person was James and after he died, he focused on Harry and I think that's what kept his primary relatively healthy. Also what motivates Sirius in book 3 is revenge on Pettigrew. Very Snake-y of him. As for his secondary, it looked like both James and Sirius were Improvisers and I could never see this guy as anything but a Lion.

James Potter - The thing about James is that a lot of people have a very, very good impression about him and for 4.5 books the reader also sees him in a good light. But then we see Snape's flashback in book 5 and find out he was actually a bully. Which makes us wonder how literally everyone but Snape -who is biased bc of other reasons- had such a high opinion of him. IMO, it was because James was a veeeery Snake secondary. Compare him for just a moment with Sirius, who was mostly like James, but people, including people close to him, had no problem believing he was a murderer. As @laufire pointed out, it's hard to see Dumbledore, Remus, etc. believe the same of James if the situation was reversed. Lion vs Snake secondary, man. I agree he was most likely a Glory Hound Lion that probably shifted more towards Paragon after he graduated from Hogwarts and joined the war.

Severus Snape - I don't remember who sorted him and where, but I totally agree with Snake Bird. Severus was a pretry unhealthy Snake who fixated on Lily since childhood, but also valued power more than her. He thought he could have the best of both worlds and then Lily died and I am pretty sure he burned to a crisp. And yeah, what other secondary could the potion master have but Bird?

Lily Evans - We really know ridiculously little about her, but the way she stood up to James again and again since their first till their fifth year, makes me think she was a Lion secondary. (I am getting the feeling James really liked Lion secondaries) Definitely an Idealist primary and I could see Lion, but I like the idea of her housesharing with Harry too much, so I prefer imagining her as a Bird.

Regulus Black - Pretty much my favourite character on this list LOL. We also know too little about him to really have any definitive sorting, but I like your ideas that he might be a Snake Bird or a Double Bird. If it was the former, it's truly tragic, as I think only Kreacker would have been His Person by the time he died. Buuut, I am more inclined towards a Bird primary who thought pureblood ideaology was Right and Good, till he was smacked across the face with evidence that it really, really wasn't. The reason I am choosing Bird over Snake is because I cannot see a Snake sacrificing himself in the Cave when Kreacker was already safe. Snake!Regulus would have either: 1. never let Kreacker leave with Voldemort 2. sacrificed himself if it was between his life and Kreacker's or 3. as soon as Kreacker came back from the cave, would have taken him and deflacted from Voldy and the Blacks. But he didn't do any of these, instead he chose to die in the hope of his death helping bring Voldy's destruction. Kinda screams Idealist to me. And I think it's Bird and not Lion, because the cave and the horcrux and Kreacher almost dying seem to have been the straw that broke the camel's back for him and he did a 180 degrees turn and decided the Black family values can go to hell, Voldy needs to die. Considering the (super dramatic) message he left, Regulus strikes me as a planner, so I agree Bird secondary could suit him well.

So, TL;DR:

Peter Pettigrew - Lion Badger

Remus Lupin -Badger Bird, burned primary

Sirius Black - Snake Lion

James Potter - Lion Snake

Severus Snape - Snake Bird, unhealthy and burned primary

Lily Evans - Bird Lion

Regulus Black - Double Bird who changes his belief when he realizes how dangerous Voldemort is.

But, really, we know so little about most of these guys, you could write them as almost any sorting in fanfics and it probably won't look out of character. These are just my preferred interpretations.

[kaz-with-hat]

on the topic of your badger vs lion secondary post, what are some differences between badger and snake secondary? the (harry potter) stereotype is that theyre completely different, but theyre more similar than people give them credit for in both being fluid secondaries. and i understand that badgers are a prepwork secondary, but ive heard badgers say that they can thrive in improv situations because their prepwork is in the people around them. thoughts?

This ask is ironic because Snake is the one Secondary I do not understand at all. Lion? Bird? They're not who I am deep down but I get them, they make sense to me, I can use them in a pinch - Bird is both fun and useful while Lion is my "break glass in case of emergency". Snake? Snake is some sort of wizardry beyond my ken.

My suspicion is that Snake and Badger might be a case of Secondaries that can look very similar to the outside observer but are coming from fundamentally different places. Like, the fluid thing - I can easily imagine that this can be hard to tell apart for someone watching. Especially if we get into Exploded Badger, where you can in fact shift pretty strongly and contradict who you were earlier to match the other person. That might look pretty Snake!

But the thing is that a Courtier Badger is not acting. In that way, Badger is more similar to Lion than Snake, IMO - you're always being authentically you. It's just that "you" is a fluid concept. Certain parts are magnified and others tucked away depending on who you're talking to and the overall vibe of the group, but to a certain point that just feels natural? And at least for me it's not really happening consciously, I don't decide "oh I think this person I'm talking to needs an extra dose of tech geek Kaz and extra emotional intensity but to go minimal on sarcastic Kaz" or whatever. You just sort of see how the person acts and automatically shift to bring out the parts of yourself (or, when Exploded, create the parts of yourself) that suit that. My understanding from what Snakes have said is that their shifting is a lot more deliberate and calculated and there's a lot more distance there.

(more on Badgers improvising on familiar territories and how "integrity of method" can actually include some Snakey elements below cut)

The improv thing is interesting, because the analogy I actually want to draw here is to Rapid-Fire Bird. Namely: I think the Built secondaries can be capable of quick shifting and dealing with things on the fly, but it needs to be in an area where they have something built already. From a Badger perspective, it's like - the stronger your foundation, the less necessary it becomes for you to build and plan every little detail of what you need in advance, the more likely a rough idea of where you're going is enough, and the more likely it is that you can react to something quickly because you're on such familiar ground. Like, when I'm at work, I know that I got this. I have the skills and background, I've built up the expertise, I know that if I don't know something right away I know where to find it out, I have the trust of my teammates... so I can roll with the punches and try out various tactics to solve a problem, and also leave stuff unplanned knowing I'll be able to figure it out when it happens. This sounds similar to what you're saying about Badgers thriving in improv because their prep work is in the people around them, and this might look Snake to the outside observer? But it's extremely situational, it's only possible because we're in my territory here. I have absolutely no clue how Snakes pull this off without that basis. My Lion model is pretty much actively terrifying to use due to that lack of something to draw on, it feels like I'm jumping in the deep end - and at least that's straightforward, you just pick a direction and start going. Snakes just, like, do the adaptability/try a bunch of different tactics/find a path around obstacles thing in completely unfamiliar situations? I... but... how.

One last point where I think the two might look similar but get there in completely different ways: what exactly the Badger's "integrity of method" is can vary a lot. I think a lot of people who hear this might think that it's always about throwing more and more effort at the problem to solve it. But the Right Way to solve something can include "don't reinvent the wheel, make sure there isn't an existing solution you can use for this before you start solving it yourself". Or "try a few different approaches to make sure you've found the best/most efficient/most elegant one." Or "don't sink too much effort into trying to find the absolute perfect solution right off. It's more important to get something that works in place now and then come back to improve on it over time." To an outside observer, this could look Snakey - you're stopping and trying different things before you settle on the best way to solve something, you're borrowing things other people have done to save yourself effort, you're showing up with rough solutions that handle the problem but could really be refined. But it's coming from a very different place, with Badger doing these things because it's the right way (and, therefore, likely to do things like try different approaches even if the first one worked OK, or go to a lot of effort to make sure there's no solution already available even when making their own wouldn't be that hard), while the Snake is more goal-oriented and doing these things because they're trying to find the path that gets them to their destination quickest.

(...rereading the above paragraph I'm like: how obvious is it that I'm a software developer...)

Conclusion: even if in certain contexts the end result looks the same, Snakes remain magic beyond my comprehension. Sorry anon!

[magpie-of-a-birb]

which idealist primary would you say might be most worried about being overly credulous? i can see it for lion integrity vs the bird search for truth. for sure i’m not a loyalist but i haven’t yet figured out where my ideas come from. it’s just a huge pet peeve of mine when things are taken without question/at face value, and i really value finding things out for yourself.

My first instinct is to say bird, since when it comes to the morality side of things, what is picked up could have a more direct impact on the bird's compass than if they were a lion, so making sure the data isn't faulty would be important. However, due to this post that amai made, I'm not so sure. For the most part, I think it could go either way, but depends on whether or not the bird or lion has something in their system that makes double-checking information to be important

That being said, the way that you value finding things out for yourself makes me think that your secondary may be influencing this, as well, since you're valuing having the "checking" step as a part of your information-acquiring method. The way it's phrased makes me think badger secondary, since it sounds like you take pride in doing the work to find the answer, yourself

TL;DR: checking over newly acquired information leans more towards bird primary, but could be bird or lion primary. However, the secondary may be influencing said value

[solcomfortssouls]

what's the difference between a character mastering lots of different fighting techniques because they're a badger vs if they're a bird?

I'm no expert on badgers secondaries, I'm a bird secondary myself though, so this is how I understand it:

Birds will learn all the techniques, cause they are collecting all the tools they see as needed for a situation. Or for fun, it doesn't all ever have to come to use. It's about expanding their toolkit.

A badger character would learn all the fighting techniques, because they are a hard worker. Because they want to show up and do the work, and if it's their duty, their job, the need of their community, they will go and master all there is to know about it. They wouldn't do it for fun or in cass, but to fill an actual need. To be diligent, caring and honestly there for those who need it.

Hope that helps!

P.S. please send sortinghatchats asks to my writeblr @writingonesdreams in the future, thank you!

[wisteria-lodge]

when friends (or heck, even acquaintances or strangers) fight, i usually try to mellow things out and ask for each of their perspectives, then explain to the other party etc etc and try to reach an agreement or apology etc. thats badger sec right? except im a bird sec (too?) can you have two secs or am i modelling one?

"Explain to the other party" ???? Nah, that's just Bird. A Badger secondary would NEVER think about it like that, or put it in those terms. I think you have a very similar Bird secondary to Disney's Pocahontas.

[reds-burrow]

I wanted to take a moment to organize my thoughts further on the divide between Lion and Badger secondaries vs Bird and Snake secondaries. Right now, we have them divided between Inspirational vs Situational. While it's clear to see the difference between Built vs Improvisational or Solid vs Fluid, Inspirational vs Situational always struck me as odd. Don't get me wrong; Inspirational and Situational are still valid descriptors. But I think we can dig a little deeper into how these secondary pairs compare and contrast.

To me, the divide comes down to how Badgers and Lions tend to push through obstacles while Birds and Snakes are more likely to reassess their path when they hit resistance.

The way Badgers and Lions push through obstacles emphasizes their straightforward commitment that people find Inspirational. Their intentions are clear, and they can be depended on to follow the path they've chosen. Socially, they are just as straightforward: they are exactly who they present themself to be. When a Lion or Badger has a strong primary, it shines through. If a Lion or Badger is already charging or building towards something, their primary has already deemed it worth charging or building towards. Being so open, fully meaning what they say and do, and putting their self into their work are all naturally inspiring qualities.

In contrast, Birds and Snakes are flexible and versatile in how they solve problems while also circumventing trouble. They may look at the straight path Lions and Badgers are taking and ask why they're spending time and energy on a path that has already met resistance. Why continue with Plan A when Plan B is easier? The thing about Plan B is that it is more likely to be outside of what is considered the normal solution for a problem. This can mean anything from bending the rules, to repurposing something outside of its original design, to inventing a completely new tool.

Birds and Snakes take on socialization in the same way as other problems, with roles and masks crafted to circumvent resistance from other people. Which role an Actor Bird will play or what mask a Snake will put on is chosen to fit the situation and the audience, to get what the Bird or Snake needs from the people around them. In some Birds and Snakes, this is a calculated move, and when their audience senses this, it can give the impression that Birds and Snakes are colder than Badgers and Lions. However, if a Bird or Snake is comfortable with their audience, if they are tired or upset, or if they come across something they cannot misrepresent, particularly if it grates against their primary, they will stop circumventing and shed their mask or role.

So, how are Circumventing secondaries Situational? This is perhaps most obvious if we compare them to Straightforward secondaries. The Straightforward secondaries have a natural forward momentum. This momentum may not be as obvious in Badgers as in charging Lions, but it just needs time to build. In much the same way Rapid-Fire Birds can look like Snakes when all their collected resources line up just right, a Badger can look like a charging Lion when all their hard work falls into place. Snakes and Birds, however, tend to lack this momentum because they need a situation react to first. This is why the secondaries explode like they do. When Lions and Badger secondaries explode, they throw their entire being against the obstacle, often self-destructing in the process, Lions in a spectacular show of force and Badgers by grinding away until there’s nothing left. Meanwhile, Birds and Snakes are paralyzed by a lack of situation to react to. Without a problem to circumvent, they can stall out, Snakes left adrift and Birds left to perpetually collect but not react.

tl;dr – Lions and Badgers are Inspirational because they’re Straightforward. Snakes and Birds are Situational because they’re Circumventing.

EDIT: Erased a sentence that accidentally implied Actor Birds are Fluid. They are not.

[intheseautumnhands]

Sorting The Last 5 Years

Hello I’m back with yet more tiny fandom sorting because I have Thoughts and also, Feelings. Let’s talk about The Last 5 Years, which has ranked consistently among my favorite all-time musicals for so very, very long, and has such great characters for dissecting.

First some brief housekeeping: This is based specifically off the script for the stage show, and the cast recording version by Norbert Leo Butz and Sherie Rene Scott in 2002. I have not been lucky enough to see this live. I also promise no consistency with the movie because I just... nope, sorry, don’t like it. I think I remember things being consistent enough that this’d probably be good for both, but I’m not gonna try to include movie-based thoughts.

Second: I am not purposefully getting into the great “who was at fault” debate but I think my thoughts on them as characters makes it clear that I think both of them have flaws, and that while Jamie crossed a lot more lines at the end, neither of them are blameless for the relationship’s issues. SHC is always kinda YMMV, but even moreso than usually, if you’re really biased towards one side or the other, we probably read these characters very differently. Which is cool and I’d love to hear other opinions! But I will not be surprised if we disagree somewhere along the line.

I’m going to do this slightly different than usual -- since we’ve only got two characters to talk about, and I want to discuss how their houses bounce off each other, I’m going to go by house instead of discussing by character. In addition, I’m going to go Secondary first, because I have a lot I want to say about their Primaries.

Secondaries

In his second song of the show, Jamie tells us exactly how he approaches life: 

But I say no, no, whatever I do I barrel on through, and I don’t complain No matter what I try, I’m flying full speed ahead.... Things might get bumpy, but Some people analyze every details Some people stall when they can’t see the trail Some people freeze out of fear that they’ll fail But I keep rolling on

If I had to pull out one singular moment to crystallize how he approaches things, that’d be it. Jamie doesn’t bother to stop and consider or change his approach. He sees what he wants, and he goes for it, and he’s lucky enough that that works out really, really well for him. And even when it’s a response to hardship, that’s still his approach. Just look at I Could Never Rescue You: so we could fight, or we could wait, or I could go. He decides there’s nothing else worth trying, calls someone else to help him leave, and goes.

Even when it’s not the best idea right now, when tempering what he has to say might help him get what he wants (If I Didn’t Believe In You) he doesn’t do it.  Jamie charges, he’s stubborn, he’s set on what he wants -- he’s a pretty intense Lion, in other words.

Cathy tries to go after what she wants, too, but she ends up with several more obstacles in her way. While a lot of that is luck of the draw, she’s also a little more hesitant overall. Look at her running internal monologue throughout Climbing Uphill, second-guessing every decision (why’d I pick these shoes, why’d I pick this song, why’d I pick this career).  In The Schmuel Song Jamie alludes to the same hesitance: maybe it’s just that you’re afraid to go out onto a limb(-o-vitch), maybe your heart’s completely swayed but your head can’t follow through.

She comes off as having that preparedness of a foundational Secondary -- I don’t see any hints of the breathless charge and certainty of a Lion, or the adaptability of a Snake. I honestly think either Bird or Badger would be suitable for her, and could easily be played into in either direction depending on small acting choices.

Absent of other interpretations, I’m going to lean Bird, off that line from Jamie above and some of the little nuances of Sherie’s performances. There’s a lot of frustration that this all isn’t coming more easily that, while it probably has a lot to do with how easily things have come to Jamie, also leans me away from Badger a little bit; but she’s clearly not unwilling to put in the work, and I could absolutely see that interpretation working just as well.

Primaries

Interestingly, Cathy is outright stated as having the traditional Snake-y trait: don’t you think that now’s a good time to be the ambitious freak you are? That’s not why I’m going to say that Cathy’s a Snake Primary, and Jamie’s clearly got ambitions too, but it does make me smile a little.

Loyalist Cathy’s earliest (timeline-wise) songs are so full of Snake wrap-myself-up-in-my-favorite-person sentiments and lines. Goodbye until tomorrow, goodbye until the rest of my life, and I have been waiting, I have been waiting for you. You don’t have to change a thing, just stay with me. I want you and you and nothing but you, miles and piles of you. I don’t mean to put on any pressure, but I know when a thing is right. Once Jamie’s in her life, that’s it, he’s a priority. It is heartbreaking to go back over this show and realize how much more of what Cathy says is directly about Jamie than the other way around.

Even later on, after we get the first tiny signs of tension, it’s still there. In The Next Ten Minutes: I don’t know why people run, I don’t know why things fall through, I don’t know how anybody survives in this life without someone like you. I could protect and preserve, I could say no and good bye -- but why, Jamie, why? In Summer in Ohio: I found my guiding light, I tell the stars each night, look at me, look at him -- son of a bitch, I guess I’m doing something right.

It’s not even the first time she’s done this. In I Can Do Better Than That, she talks about a previous relationship in the same terms: I gave up my life for the better part of a year. When Cathy gets serious about someone, she makes them her priority,

And that’s what she gets, until that’s all she has, and she lashes out with the exact same thing she wanted at the beginning: you and you, and nothing but you, miles and piles of you. And I don’t think it’s because she didn’t actually want it. It’s because she thought it would be less one-sided.

Because idealist Jamie does put her high in his priorities, but he doesn’t put her first in the same, fixated way. Jamie’s instinctual and set-on-his-decisions Lion Primary chafes against Cathy’s expectation that he’ll put her above what he wants, fed into by that charging, bold instinct from his Secondary.

Which is not to say that Cathy isn’t important to Jamie. But the downfall in their relationship is that what that looks like is so different between the two of them, and they never figure out how to meet middle ground. They’re both unreliable, biased narrators in this story, and neither of them see what the other needs.

A while back, I talked about how different Primaries love. Jamie and Cathy could be case studies in what I said there, and especially in how that love can go bad.

Lion Jamie sees that they both have big dreams, and encourages Cathy to push her way forward on her dreams: Shouldn’t I want the world to see the brilliant girl who inspired me?... Stop temping, and go and be happy! He uses the thing that is most important to him -- his writing -- to encourage her, show her that he sees her hesitance and he believes in her. And when they’re having problems, he puts the blame on how her dreams are going first: Is it just that you’re disappointed to be touring again for the summer? Did you think this would all be much easier than it’s turned out to be?

And that’s where we get, I think, one of the biggest highlights of how they misunderstand each other: If I’m cheering on your side, Cathy, why can’t you support mine? Cathy feels unsupported, Cathy feels like everything has become all about Jamie -- but Jamie feels the same way. The kind of support they need is different, and neither of them see it.

(Even at the height of their love story, the one moment they’re at the same page, The Next Ten Minutes, it says so much to me that Jamie keeps getting these lines about a bigger picture that he and Cathy are just part of: there are so many dreams I need to see with you -- not dreams about them, dreams they can see come true together. I will never change the world, until, I do.)

And Jamie withdraws, and takes her more and more for granted, and steamrolls over her both accidentally -- A Part of That, and Cathy’s fierce declaration of I will not be the girl who gets asked how it feels to be trotting along at the genius’ heels getting disproven in front of her eyes -- and then purposefully, when he decides it’s time to stop trying.

Meanwhile, Snake Cathy sees that as the betrayal. She puts him first, makes him the priority, and when she doesn’t get that in return, she sees it as everything being about Jamie instead of the balance being equal. Fed into by her own ambitions going unfulfilled despite her own best efforts, she clings tighter, until he feels suffocated by it: all that I ask for is one little corner, one private room at the back of my heart, tell her I found one, she sends out battalions to claim it and blow it apart.

Until Jamie leaves, and Cathy is left bitter by it: Jamie is probably feeling just fine. Jamie decides it’s his right to decide. Run away, like it’s simple, like it’s right. Because to her steady, solid foundational Secondary and person-focused Snake, Jamie’s impulsive choice and quick action is cowardice at best, proof he doesn’t care as much at worst.

In summary:

Cathy Hiatt is a Snake Primary/foundational Secondary, either works with the text, but based on OCR, likely Bird.

Jamie Wellerstein is a Double Lion.

And Cathy’s person-first version of support VS Jamie’s dreams-first version of support, and their lack of understanding what each other is trying to provide and needs to recieve, is the entire crux of why their relationship fails, with some help from their uneven amounts of luck in their dream careers.

[starry-sky-stuff]

Historical Sortings

I've done a lot of reading about royalty in the 19th century and I decided to have some fun and try my hand at sorting historical figures.

I wonder if you can tell who my favs and unfavs are from my sortings.

Cut for length.

British Royals:

Queen Victoria: Snake/Lion. An unhealthy Snake Primary who expected that level of unhealthy devotion from everyone around her. Probably burned a bit after Albert died. Also an unhealthy Lion Secondary who strong-armed, controlled, and domineered others, particularly her children.

I don't know too much about her husband, but I think Albert might've been an Idealist.

Edward VII, aka Bertie: Lion/Badger. His charm strikes me as more of a Badger than a Snake. He seems to me to be the ‘I know a person’ guy. Just the vibes I get. He also really liked routine and wasn’t a particularly good conversationalist, just genuinely interested in others. Not too sure about his primary, but I didn't get Loyalist vibes so I went with Lion.

Alexandra of Denmark {wife of Bertie}: Snake/Badger. She usually gets characterised as the long-suffering wife so it’s not surprising she’s the love interest sorting. She was loyal to her husband despite all his infidelities, and her interests were confined to her children and pets

Princess Alice {daughter of Queen Victoria}: Bird/Badger. Experienced a crisis of faith in middle age which I interpret as a Fallen Bird trying to reconfigure their system. Her dedication to helping others makes me think Badger Secondary. Also, she died after contracting diphtheria from giving her sick son comfort which seems like a very tragic Badger.

Prince Alfred {son of Queen Victoria}: Lion/Lion. He was wilful and abrasive, and had a no-nonsense attitude, so probably Lion Secondary. I can’t really get a read on his primary but maybe also a Lion. That would mean he and his wife houseshare, which might’ve contributed to the breakdown of the marriage.

Grand Duchess Maria Alexandrovna {wife of Alfred}: Lion/Lion. Very caustic and abrasive, I definitely wouldn’t want to be around her in real life but I admire her no-nonsense attitude and no tolerance for BS. Her marrying off her daughters young because she thought it was right makes me think Lion Primary.

Princess Beatrice {daughter of Queen Victoria}: Snake/Badger. She subjugated her entire life to fulfilling her mother’s needs and the only major conflict they had was over her wanting to get married (Snake on Snake loyalty conflict maybe). Very much a background character who worked behind the scenes, so Badger Secondary.

I don't know enough about Queen Victoria's other children to sort them.

George V: Badger/Badger. Dull, dutiful and dependable is how he tends to be described, which always makes my mind go to Badger (I swear, I love Badgers, they’re great but they’re not very flashy). Considering he refused to give sanctuary to his cousin Nicholas II because he was afraid he might threaten his own country and throne, I’m going with Badger Primary who put the good of his group over individual loyalty.

Mary of Teck {wife of George}: Badger/Badger. Duty and dignity defined her, so I think she was a Double Badger who was loyal to the institution of the British Monarchy and her family (above any individual member). Her and her husband houseshare, which might explain some of their parenting issues since neither could compensate for the other’s shortcomings.

Marie of Edinburgh, aka Missy {daughter of Alfred}: Snake/Snake. Charismatic and flamboyant, she started out as a young bride in a foreign country with no support and she ended her life as a beloved figure and the most popular member of the royal family. Part of this was her finding meaning in her life by working for the benefit of Romania, which makes me think she was a Snake whose loyalty came to include all of Romania. Also, she was disgusted with her son’s selfishness and his (initial) abdication of his rights.

Victoria Melita of Edinburgh, aka Ducky {daughter of Alfred}: Lion/Lion. Strong-willed, temperamental, and uncompromisingly honest, Ducky unabashedly followed her own course in life. She divorced her first husband despite family and social pressure, married her second husband despite protests from his family, and was no-one’s fool.

German Royals:

Victoria, Princess Royal, aka Vicky {daughter of Queen Victoria}: Lion/Lion. I read in her biography that someone was quoted as saying she was “always clever, never wise”, which I think just fits this sorting. You’ve really got to admire her steadfast belief in liberalism in the face of Prussian conservatism, but sometimes reading about her aggravates me because I’m like, can’t you chill for just a second. Like, stop doing the same thing and expecting a different outcome.

Frederick III, aka Fritz {husband of Vicky}: Lion/Badger. He and Vicky were really united in their shared Lion Primary and belief in liberalism, from which they never wavered. His indecision and constantly subjugating his beliefs to family loyalty make me think he of an unhappy Badger Secondary loyal to a group that doesn’t value him.

Wilhelm II {son of Vicky & Fritz}: Lion/Lion. Considering his fraught relationship with his mother I find him and Vicky having the same sorting to be kinda funny. But he was such a Glory Hound Lion, a total egomaniac, bombastic, and a bully. A deeply unhealthy Double Lion.

Augusta Victoria of Schleswig-Holstein {wife of Wilhelm}: Badger/Badger. Definitely an unhealthy Badger Primary, she exalted anything that was German and was prejudiced against anything that wasn’t. Probably a Badger Secondary too, who dedicated herself to her husband, children, and throne.

Otto von Bismarck: Lion/Snake. Also a Glory Hound Lion judging by his visceral reaction to the implication anyone but him was responsible for German unification. The ultimate politician and opportunist, his Snake Secondary allowed him to stay in power for decades and outmanoeuvre pretty much everyone until the system he created failed him. The irony of that is hilarious to me (Bismarck’s a figure I find interesting but utterly despicable)

Russian Royals:

Nicholas I: Badger/Lion. I’m going with Badger just on his dehumanisation of ethnic minorities, liberals, and anyone who opposed him. And he was known as the Iron Tsar, so definitely a Lion Secondary who crushed any dissent both large and small. Very ironic that he’s the Protagonist sorting, since he was someone who really wanted to do what was right for his country, but what he believed was right was the worst and he's generally considered one of the worst tsars.

Alexandra Feodorovna {wife of Nicholas I}: Snake/Badger. Similar to Alexandra of Denmark, she was defined as being the perfect wife, loyal to her husband and overlooking his infidelities, with few interests outside of her family.

Alexander II {son of Nicholas I}: Lion/Snake. Definitely not a Loyalist based on the way he treated his wife. Loyalists can commit adultery too, but if he’s a loyalist than he’s not one who valued his wife or their children. And he definitely gives me immature Lion Primary vibes, doing what makes him happy to the detriment of others, his family, and his country. He was known for his charm and congeniality, but his way of dealing with his ministers was to play each of them off each other which makes me think Snake.

Grand Duke Konstantin Nikolaevich {son of Nicholas I}: Lion/Lion. A total firebrand and idealist, he pursued his goals relentlessly and often tactlessly. Burned later in his life after his brother took a conservative bent and then Konstantin was basically removed from power after his brother’s death, so he retreated to life with his mistress and second family.

Alexander III {son of Alexander II}: Badger/Lion. Very similar to his grandfather, Nicholas I. Dutiful and hardworking, but also a lot of dehumanisation and running roughshod over others. Treated his family better than his father, and family was very important to him which could also be Snake.

Maria Feodorovna {wife of Alexander III}: Lion/Badger. She was vivacious and friendly and flourished in court life, which makes me think either Courtier Badger or Snake. I think Badger because she really understood the institutional power of the role of empress and was also really suspicious of anyone outside of the family. Nothing about her suggests Loyalist to me, but she was very firm in believing in the correctness of her own opinions. Her conflict with her daughter-in-law definitely makes sense when viewed through the lens of a Lion/Badger vs Lion/Lion

Nicholas II {son of Alexander III}: Badger/Badger. He garnered a reputation for duplicity because, since he hated conflict, he would agree with a minister during a meeting and then fire them via note the next day, so definitely not a Lion. Probably a Badger since he was obsessive over doing every single aspect of his job, including even sending letters and he refused a secretary. His attachment to autocracy derived at least partly from duty and he was very attached to his family, so maybe Badger Primary. He was also very close to his cousin George V and they houseshare.

Alexandra Feodorovna {wife of Nicholas II}: Lion/Lion. A deeply unhealthy Lion, she was obstinate, imperious, and completely inflexible. Wholeheartedly believed that she was entirely correct in her opinions, often based on little evidence, and objectivity was completely beyond her.

[painted-crow]

hey so i'm looking to figure my sorting out. i'm p sure of my secondary but honestly i've gone in circles so many times that i'd believe anything lmao

so i guess to start like. i'm fairly sure i'm an idealist, but with a twist. i care about making the world a better place-- i'm kinda infamous among my friends for being a little TOO outspoken about my opinions. on a small scale, i have strong opinions about a lot of things, but on a larger scale... idk. i don't think any one person can know what an ideal world looks like cause there really is no such thing. there are literally countless variables when it comes to implementing even small systems, countless ways to fuck it up, so i don't think i'd be choosing some grand ideal over the people i love anytime soon.

that being said, i think my idealist streak gets directed into something else most of the time. i'm very focused on understanding myself to a fault. i want to know why i do the things i do, why i believe certain things over others. when it comes to my beliefs about the world, they're strong but take it or leave it, but when it comes to myself they are not a good idea to push. i've ended relationships over not feeling like myself with them or feeling like i'm losing myself or they're pushing me to be someone i'm not. i make strong instant decisions about what the "right" thing to do is when it comes to how it impacts my perception of myself, especially with intimate relationships (i'm a lot less impulsive with things like friends and things i'm less personally involved in). i NEED to know who i am, way more than i care about any one specific person or thing. obviously i love people very deeply and would do just about anything to have both, but if i don't know who i am, if i'm not true to myself, then i have nothing. losing people happens.

the issue is, because i'm prone to doing that and not thinking as much about how it'll impact people, i've been called selfish a lot over my lifetime. recently i've started thinking more about how my actions impact people and their feelings, and i'm feeling a lot more torn. i want to do what i want to do, what i feel is best, but i feel immature for doing it a lot. i've started worrying a lot about being a bad person and hurting people, and i've been thinking about how the "right" way to be is. i went through a phase where i was repressing myself to make the "moral" choice, but i just felt so flat. ultimately i realized that it doesn't really matter how good i am if i have to repress myself to get there, cause then all it is is performance. tldr is i feel super guilty for making "selfish" choices rn, especially as i've gotten more aware of other peoples' feelings.

what i think is probably going on is that i'm an idealist primary with a badger model, but i'm not sure between lion and bird, and i'm still open to badger. pretty sure i'm not a snake.

the section on my secondary's gonna be a lot shorter, sorry this got so long! so i'm p sure i'm a badger secondary. considered lion and snake secondary too. whatever i am, i have a p loud lion model over it. i've always had a gift for making people trust me, for acting. i kinda blend in and become what i need to to both help them and get them off my back so i can do what i need to do. i have a serious passion for helping people with tough love (i like to think of myself as a p good advice giver, since i can both tell people what they need to hear and really get in their shoes and be kind where other people might not). i think i judge myself the least when i can kinda toe that line between pushing boundaries and stepping back-- i track where peoples' boundaries are constantly so i can push them to the limit without stepping over them. i'm very fluid when it comes to presentation in reality, even though i think people actually think of me as kinda controversial. i tend to see people who are ACTUALLY overstepping boundaries as lowkey selfish at times, even though i also really respect them. i like to do things the "right" way as long as i give a shit about them. the catch is, i don't want to blend into the background, and i don't think i do. a partner of mine called me a fox cause he noticed the way i constantly toe that line where i can get people to notice me and still keep them off my back, still make them comfortable. i'm also NOT a planner. people constantly give me shit for only ever feeling things out in the moment, and honestly thinking about the future freaks me out. i don't want to plan how i do shit i'd rather just get in the zone and figure it out from there. tldr i'm pretty sure i'm a badger secondary? but i could be convinced of snake. definitely see elements of both but my gut's telling me badger so take that how you will

anyway! thank you so much for taking the time to answer this, i know it's a lot.

also sorry one thing i forgot to add about my secondary! i think my lion model got so loud because when i do the shifty presentation thing, i have a tendency to lose myself and start perceiving myself as whatever i'm presenting. it's made it really hard to figure out who i actually am and so i started just being as clear about it as possible.

for my primary, i really care a lot about being right. i try to take every side into consideration to make sure i get the best conclusion. i can be super stubborn when it comes to certain things, but i don't want to just... hold to perceptions that are wrong. that being said it's important to me to trust my gut and i take it as a big input. i'm very felt out for most things, don't really have a strong system of how to be. i really wanna be able to trust myself but i just don't. i have a big habit of relying on other people to tell me what to think, which is uh. yeah.

Primary

You're a Bird primary with a Lion model, and you're trying on some Badger ideals. That's one of the easier Sorts I've done, lol! Possibly because your primary and models actually House match mine :p

Your reasoning process screams Bird xD and so does your writing style and just the length of the ask. Birds love self-analysis, it's part of how we make sure our systems stay as close to true as we can make them.

You've got some Lion too, but it's a model. It sounds like your Lion and your Bird have come into conflict before, and like most Birds with Lion models, it bugs the snot out of you when your Lion's intuition (which is important data!) doesn't line up with what your Bird knows.

You've prioritized Bird's conclusions before, but (as with many Birds) you don't entirely trust your own system and you're wondering if your Lion might have been right and you should give its reasoning more weight.

Also, you're consciously deciding that maybe Badgers' way of doing things is more moral than yours, and you're pulling in some of those ideals. That doesn't make you a Badger primary. Birds are notorious for this kind of thing actually 😂

The line between whether some ideals you've pulled into your Bird system vs. what counts as a model is fuzzy. It's up to you really, how important those pieces of Badger are to you.

For me, I think the line might be--is it wired into your sense of self on its own, or does it get filtered through your Bird and Lion? It really sounds like your Lion is a strong part of your sense of self: if you ignore its advice, you feel not totally like yourself. You don't have to feel all your models equally strongly, but thinking of it that way might help.

(It's also hard because Birds often feel like they kind of are their systems, or they are their ability to reason, that's a core part of their identity. ...It's complicated.)

Secondary

You sound really really Snakey. I'm not sure where you're getting Badger, actually!

Badgers are more than the mirroring ability. They also bury themselves in work or community, and it can sometimes look like they're neck deep in so many responsibilities that they couldn't possibly handle any more problems--and then they do have a problem, they do need something, and they stand up and all that stuff they were buried in turns out to be armor and tools.

Snakes, otoh, are improvisational and tend to be very aware of their surroundings. Unlike Badgers, the Snake brand of social shapeshifting involves a lot of keeping track of other people's reactions to what they're doing--trying something and then watching the response, then adjusting, rinse and repeat. You turn yourself into exactly the right person for this situation.

Badger mirroring is usually simpler. You reflect the other person's energy back at them: it's an empathetic response that says we're alike, I accept you, you're safe. A lot of Badgers do this without thinking--it can be hard to turn off.

Snakes also don't go in for prep work as much, it tends to trip them up (Snakes with Badger or Bird models notwithstanding). They're Improvisational secondaries, unlike Bird and Badger which are Built and rely heavily on some form of preparation.

The Lion model sounds legit, but just check for yourself: you might be learning to use Snake's neutral state. Snakes will sometimes drop all their layers of acting and maneuvering and suddenly they're just themselves. Different Snakes have different relationships with neutral state. For some Snakes, it's a relief to drop the mask; for others, it feels vulnerable and they only trust certain people with their full authenticity.

It does sound like you really admire Lion secondaries, though, so you might indeed have a model there! This is just something else you could check on.

Hope that helps!

- Paint

[the-phoenix-heart]

How do Deku and Bakugou interact with both being double Lion ?

Oooh boy here comes my rant about platonic Bakudeku and their double Lions! (I also just finished watching Heroes Rising so my BakuDeku feels are stronger than usual-cause I’m a multishipper)

First of all, I feel the need to double down on Deku’s primary. He is a Lion primary. Does he want to save people-yes, but there are things about his character you have to consider. Mainly, he’s more focused on the goal of becoming the number one hero and saving people, than the people he wants to save. He doesn’t bond with communities, he bonds with the individuals he meets. But, he does think it’s the right way to live, so Badger primary model. 

And boy howdy do they interact with their double Lions. 

Bakugou for the longest time was a Glory-Hound Lion. He wanted to be the strongest there ever was and he wanted to be on top of everyone else. But, deep down he always felt like he was missing something. What he was missing was that Paragon Lion that Deku had. He liked his Glory-Hound Lion and he didn’t understand that you could have both. And he saw not naturally having a Paragon Lion as a weakness in himself, which is why he bullied him (doesn’t justify it but y’know it’s called character development. 

Deku meanwhile admired Bakugou’s Glory-Hound Lion. He saw Bakugou’s hunger for power and love of strength, and how it made Bakugou powerful and strong and he loved Bakugou for it (platonically! possibly...). 

But they couldn’t understand each other. Bakugou at the time couldn’t let go of his Glory-Hound Lion out of stubbornness and Deku couldn’t understand that his Paragon Lion was causing Bakugou to lash out. Notice, Bakugou only started to grow as a person when Deku left him alone more. 

Now, Bakugou did become friends with Kirishima-another double Lion with a Paragon Lion primary-but it was not Deku’s Paragon Lion. Bakugou grew up with Deku and his Paragon Lion and so he couldn’t accept it at the time, but Kirishima (who is has a small dose of Glory-Hound in him) was able to get through. 

And their secondaries, ever since the first scene of the show they’ve been standing on opposite sides facing each other down. Bakugou did not like how similar he and Deku were despite their differences, which is why Bakugou burned Deku’s secondary. Once Deku’s secondary was burned Deku turned to a Bird secondary model, which ironically Bakugou probably saw and thought, ‘I can do that better.’ Bakugou then used his Bird secondary model to bolster his own Lion secondary. 

And of course we have to talk about how their relationship with All Might relates to their sorting. Bakugou looked at All Might and saw a Glory-Hound Lion primary. This vision was wrong. While seeing that All Might was not wrong, he was wrong in assuming that’s whole All Might was. Deku saw All Might and his Badger primary, and copied it. 

And now we get to the Sludge Villain incident, where Bakugou is in trouble and Deku’s secondary unburns all in one day. This is when Bakugou starts to vaguely respect Deku, and it’s because of his secondary and how he just rushed in. It’s also because he doesn’t want to be in debt, but he still has some respect for him. 

Except what little respect there was shatters when he thinks Deku has lied to him. Lying is very important to Bakugou, in that he refuses to lie and if you lie to him he’ll kick your ass. Bakugou is pissed and immediately rushes in to fight him about it like the Lion secondary he is, and gets stopped. 

Then the first fight in Ground Beta happens, and we see their Lion secondaries really colliding with each other for the first time, they yell at each other and throw punches. Their first fight was not a pretty fight emotionally at all, it was ugly and taxing for both of them. 

We see it clearly on Bakugou’s face that his primary took a hit. He’s literally having a panic attack over losing. His primary isn’t burnt, but it has not escaped the fight unscathed. Failure goes against everything he knows about himself (as a gifted kid I relate), if he has failed who the fuck is he?! He gets over this by using his Lion secondary to drag himself out. If he just proclaims that he’s going to be the number one and surpass All Might then it’s gotta be true. 

And you see it even more clearly in the Sport Festival. At the beginning of the arc he proclaims to the entire country that he’s going to win. I can never get over this because it’s basically him forcing himself to win. If he fails then he’s a hypocrite and no one wants to be a hypocrite. Once again he uses his blunt Lion secondary to drag himself along. The idea that you can rely on you secondary to keep your primary from burning...that’s kind of beautiful, but I think you can only do that with an improvisational primary. 

And in the Sports Festival you see their secondaries on clear display. Especially Deku who breaks his body and yells at a guy until the guy faces years of Mommy and Daddy issues and severe trauma. Bakugou meanwhile fights everyone until his match against Todoroki. 

Todoroki is a Snake primary, who’s unsure what his quirk means to him since he’s just now faced his trauma. Bakugou, a Double Lion, gets pissed off when Todoroki ignores him because he’s his opponent and he deserves his attention. Bakugou proves just how un-Snake he is by telling Todoroki that his family and feelings don’t matter and all that matters is the fight. It almost seems like Todoroki has listened. 

Until the match happens and Bakugou fights and yells at him to use his fire aspect of his quirk. Todoroki only uses his quirk when Deku, house matched with Bakugou, does the exact same thing. Todoroki does it because it was Deku, someone he had bonded with told him. But, then he still can’t do it for understandable reasons. Bakugou finds out he won the fight, but Todoroki didn’t use his fire and that pisses him off more than anything. The idea that he didn’t win the fight fair and square is painful and pisses him off more than anything. He wasn’t more powerful than Todoroki, Todoroki just held back. That’s not a real win.

and then the school chains him to the podium and forces him to take the medal on national tv BUT THAT’S A TOPIC FOR ANOTHER DAY

(also All Might has no idea how to handle a Lion primary that isn’t modeling Badger. “Take this medal as a wound,” no All Might you’re just gonna mess him up further! He’s not SUPPOSED to be wounded!)

Then there comes the fight against All Might where they have to work together. This is after the internship arc, where Bakugou had a Snake secondary pushed on him (which he did not accept) and Deku finally got control of his power and leveled up. Bakugou sees this and it terrifies him. Why is Deku’s Double Lion loved by all but his is hated? For a while Bakugou doesn’t even try to get along with Deku and just beat All Might himself. Then he accepts defeat because he doesn’t want to fight alongside Deku-to him that would be admitting that he is weak. And Deku does the only thing he can think of to get Bakugou to listen-he punches him and says “LET’S WIN THIS KACCHAN!” Because fuck my emotions. 

And then they yell at each other, Deku trying to hype up Bakugou and Bakugou because LISTEN UP WE ARE GONNA WORK TOGETHER MY WAY! And even as they are fight/running from All Might they’re yelling at each other, but it works. They think on the fly and Bakugou fights All Might with all he has until he’s broken. And then Deku, about to win, turns away for a moment and sees Bakugou nearly passed out under All Might and does the most badass thing ever and PUNCHES ALL MIGHT RIGHT IN THE FACE!! HIS OWN MENTOR!! Just so he can save Bakugou. It’s beautiful. 

(Now is a good time to mention I’m writing this to the soundtrack for Heroes Rising and IT FUCKING SLAPS-or that’s just me loving instrumentals)

Then Bakugou gets kidnapped, and a little detour, Deku fully understands that he cannot be the one to reach out to Bakugou. Kirishima has to be the one because Bakugou trusts him. Kirishima and him are friends and Bakugou will let him save him, and Deku recognizes that. 

And then Kacchan vs. Deku part 2 happens, and it is the most Double Lion fight ever. Bakugou is literally venting his feelings at Deku by screaming and exploding him. Deku in turn is explaining how he has always admired Bakugou by yelling back and punching him. And this is another reason why he think he’s a Lion primary: Deku admired Bakugou not because he was kind or cared about people, but because Bakugou was strong and determined-those are Lion traits he admired.

He also says he starts to talk like Bakugou when he gets really into a fight-which makes sense since his Lion secondary was burned for so long and Bakugou was his main example for years. Rip me. 

By the way, Bakugou’s primary had officially burned before this fight. He literally asks if he was wrong to try and emulate All Might the way he did, why he had to be the one to destroy All Might. But, the fight with Deku and winning helps him unburn, or at least recover.

And then pretty much nothing happens in the show for season four but EVERYTHING happens in Heroes Rising and the manga and I can’t TALK ABOUT IT BECAUSE SPOILERS BUT TRUST ME THESE DOUBLE LIONS KEEP DOUBLE LIONING IT UP (and also possibly falling in love idk i’m an equal opportunitist with Kiribaku and Bakudeku)!!

[paintpencilink]

You mention what could insult badger secondary. I know this is not universal, but can you speculate for fun about other secondaries? P. S. I know you have another blog for this, but could you turn anon there too or you don't feel comfortable about it there? I'm sorry for asking this here if it annoys you.

Is *that* the problem? Argh, Tumblr... I didn't even know anon was disabled by default. And it doesn't want to let me change it on mobile. Hang on, let me get my laptop.

...

Found it! Finally. Sheesh, this setting is buried in a weird place.

Okay! Technical difficulties out of the way, let's try messing around with the secondaries and try to piss them off.

The Badger one was about trying to get them to use a cheap, bubblegum and paperclip fix on a project they care about. Basically any time you ask a Badger to half-ass something that matters to them, they're likely to take it as a personal insult.

If you're trying to piss off a Lion secondary, I suggest bureaucracy. Lions vs bureaucrats is almost a trope in its own right. Bureaucrats assume everyone is the same, or can be stuck into forms so they kinda look the same and can be treated the same, and everything has to be done the same way. Also, it's slow. Lions hate that shit.

For Birds... You know those challenge videos where people try to assemble IKEA furniture without the instructions? And they don't even, like, try to lay out the pieces and figure out which similar-looking pieces actually have different screw holes and stuff? And eventually the person in the video just takes out an electric drill to "fix" it? Yeah. That, but with anything.

You don't even have to make them do it, just have them watch you do it and they'll slowly (or not-so-slowly) lose it. For bonus points, once you've made a mess, tell them it's their job to finish the project--shouldn't take too long because you got most of it done!

(Inefficient bureaucracy pisses Birds off too, but for different reasons. It's less "quit trying to put me in a box and make me do it your way! You're getting in the way of my doing stuff!" and more "I could design a system WAY BETTER THAN THIS. Your way sucks. I bet it was designed by committee.")

Snakes? Demanding personal vulnerability from them when you haven't earned it. If you try to get them to open their soul and express their innermost being, you're less likely to get their neutral state and more likely to get another mask that's personally designed to freak you out--but they'll tell you it's their innermost being. Deep in their soul, they really are fascinated with human taxidermy, no, really! And if you try to call them on it: "I knew you wouldn't accept me for who I really am."

Basically, if you try to troll a Snake, expect to get trolled back. 😂

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Hahahaha, thanks, anon. This was fun. 😀

Anonymous asks should be sorted out on @paint-the-ravenclaw (let me know if it's still disabled for some reason).