#both Louis and lestate provide him direction

[gloomy-eye]

I've been seeing posts around talkin about how how deeply Armand loves Lestat in the books and how he's the love of his life even though the feel isn't returned and I gotta say I hope that isn't how they take things moving forward in the show. I just haven't gotten that vibe from Armand honestly. Yeah, he loves him and he also loves Louis- that's clear. But to me it seems more like he has developed strong attachments/feelings for them out of a dependence. It doesn't feel like a "love of my life" situation. It feels like an "I need someone as I alone feel incomplete/lost" situation.

[murfpersonalblog]

IWTV Musings - LDPDL & Nosferatu 2024 (Pt9: Subverting Gothic Gender in Femme-Coded Gay Black Men)

Since S1 aired, a large portion of AMC's Interview with the Vampire 2022 fandom has resisted the notion of Louis de Pointe du Lac, a Black gay male vampire living during Jim Crow, as a female-coded character. Viewers (esp. cis straight white women--the antithesis of the gay Black man) have expressed how they either cannot or will not see Black!LDPDL aligning with feminine tropes, archetypes, aesthetics, sentiments, roles, norms, or social positions. Many cis straight white fans have made in depth analyses of IWTV's Gothic/Horror genre(s), and Gothic hero/heroine tropes through white male/female lenses, but I've yet to see any substantial analysis (or even acknowledgement) from this contingency about Black Horror, let alone the intersection of Black LGBT+ Horror and Gothic Horror. Meanwhile, their main defense/offense against Black & Bipoc fans has consistently been to either throw TERF accusations & media literacy snobbery at anyone who criticizes or counters their white-centric gender analyses of Black!LDPDL's place in Gothic Horror (others' experiences: x x x | my own experiences: x x x). And interestingly, a lot of IWTV Gothic aficionados have avoided engaging with the most recent iteration of the vampire in Gothic Horror that loosely inspired Anne Rice's Vampire Chronicles series: Dracula, a la Nosferatu 2024.

So this post is largely in reponse to several of @pynkhues' anti-GothicHeroine!Lou etc analyses of Gothic characters, but I'm still sticking to the Louis/Ellen theme when relevant, just walk with me.

Louis as the Byronic Hero? 🤔

First let's look at @pynkhues' analysis of Gothic characters here:

YES, Louis is a Byronic hero. However, AR's own Alphabettery acknowledges that all Byronic heroes are NOT created equally.

Lestat is "THE embodiment a Byronic hero," while Louis SUBVERTS the archetype by regretting/rejecting his bad tendencies, rather than EMBRACING them, unlike Byron/Lestat/Lord Ruthven/etc.

Cuz going by the definition Pynkhues provided, when you actually break their characteristics down, you can easily see which one fits more than the other.

Louis has far LESS in common with the Byronic hero than Lestat. Lou's similarities to Byronic heroes are largely skin-deep (LOL). He's a tortured emo pretty boy, sure, but the points where he differs are what BREAKS the Byronic mold, not AFFIRMS it:

3) Louis does NOT rebel against "all fundamental values and moral codes of the society"--the whole point is that he CONFORMS to societal expectations, to the detriment of his own happiness!

5) often shows a GREAT DEAL of disrespect for ANY figure of authority. | 8a) arrogant

I've addressed this b4, cuz LouisAntis keep pointing to the RACIST Alderman Fenwick calling Lou arrogant, and Lou sassing him saying "MAYBE I am arrogant!" as CONFIRMATION BIAS for all the things these horrible white men said about that uppity Black N****r who dared to rise above his "PLACE in the world...flying too close to the sun." And we see the exact same nasty sentiments with Santiago & Lestat & Sam's script in 2x7 (written by three more white men to insult & vilify Louis). Cuz yes, Louis IS prideful/haughty, esp. in the context of the classic tragic hero where pride comes b4 a fall. But it is in direct response to his attempts to break FREE of the societal constrictions tryna keep him DOWN. The white racists in NOLA are busy tryna steal his property right under him with the Ordinances segregating Storyville; and the coven's busy tryna convert him into their satanic death cult where he'll never be allowed to have his own autonomy/independence again; a SLAVE; "you'll be our little birdie for the next 50 years~!" The point is that GAY Black men & women in general were both at very the bottom of the social pyramid (maligned in a patriarchal society that equated femininity with everything negative & weak & exploitable). LDPDL & Ellen Hutter resist the UNFAIR TREATMENT they received. That resistance is treated as disrespect to KEEP them in "their place;" abused & dehumanized.

Louis shows TOO MUCH respect to awful racist homophobes, from his hateful AF mother, who he deferred to until her dying effing day; to his racist white bosses Tom Anderson & Alderman Fenwick & Fenwick's lawyer; to the white cops who busted in his house threatening to put him in JAIL for being gay. Louis' monologue in 1x2 about "No, Sir; Yes, Sir" flew CLEAR over y'all heads; y'all have the nerve to take Louis STANDING UP FOR HIMSELF against insults & blatant racism as a sign of "disrespect," and then wonder why Black fans call y'all out as racists, I swear. 😂

6a) Neither Louis not Lestat stand against the dehumanized system of labor, as they both indulge in the benefits of human exploitation, from slavery to prostitution.

6b) WHERE does THE Catholic Guilt LDPDL stand against traditionally repressive religious??? 🤨 Jacob's most iconic scene is of Louis crying out to God in a confession booth! 🤣 Yes, in WWII he started losing his religion, scared that God didn't exist cuz of everything he saw during the war, but Armand pointed out that Lou was STILL holding onto Christian notions of good & evil. Yes, in Dubai he says he doesn't read the Bible much anymore because of it, but he STILL wondered if his mom was right that his nature was that of the Devil, and he tried to prove everyone wrong by not killing since 2000.

6c) WHERE does Domestic Thy Name Is LDPDL stand against social & familial institutions & traditional family values? 🤨 Lestat & Armand didn't even WANT any kids--Louis was the one constantly pushing to start a family with them; only for Lestat to tell him to his face that "I am your family, Louis;" eff them kids, eff Benni, we don't need sons or daughters to be a family so long as we have each other!

8d) WHERE is Louis "unrepentant for his faults"? 🤨 All he does is blame himself for ish that ain't even his fault! All he does is repent--he's eating human food every week that tastes like PASTE! CHALK! SOAP! as a form of self-mortification, to remind himself that he IS human, that he doesn't WANT to be a damned & undead killer.

Louis =/= Gothic Heroine? 🤔

From CLAUDIA'S POV, yes 100%, Loustat are BOTH the patriarchs from hell, her "taught to kill by her demon fathers," etc. She indeed follows the typical Gothic Heroine arc (putting aside her being a child, ofc), esp. since yes, Louis doesn't really rescue himself from his bad situations--Claudia is "my light, my salvation" who saves him in S1, and Daniel saves him in S2. But AMC!Louis has far more agency than book!Louis, in that he IS aware of the Murder Plot, and actively (albeit reluctantly) takes part in it; unlike book!Louis, totally blindsided by Claudia. He never wanted to leave Lestat--who represented FREEDOM & PASSION for him; "I was seen!" And just like Ellen/Mina, in the end Louis musters the willpower to slit Lestat's throat & "kill" his soulmate--not for his own sake, but for the sake of HIS DAUGHTER. He sacrifices his happiness for her, but still chooses Death, when he refuses to burn Lestat. He WANTS to hold hands with death, BUT ALSO sees purpose/worth in how he can weaponize his bond to Lestat to distract Les long enough to axe him.

The biggest difference with Louis & Mina/Ellen isn't GENDER, it's SPECIES--the other protags DIE, while he lives on as a vampire. (Ofc there's some iterations of Mina Harker AND Jonathan Harker/Thomas Hutter where they're permanently turned into vamps, too.)

Louis 100% wanted to leave Armand--how on earth was Louis able to leave "easily and definitively"?! 🤨 He tried to KILL HIMSELF in SanFran to get away from his boring AF life with Armand, but Armand wouldn't LET him die. He tries to do the interview in 1973 and Armand INTERRUPTS. He does the interview in 2022 and Armand INTERRUPTS. Over & over, Louis is trying to GET OUT, and he can't. This is what I mean by BLACK HORROR, cuz unlike y'all Gothic experts in the fandom, I actually have analyzed similarities between Black!Louis in IWTV, and THE Black Horror film, Get Out.

Rolin Jones constantly stresses the (over)emphasis he puts on psychological horror in IWTV, AND the effects of gaslighting and manipulation in abusive & traumatic relationships, particularly when there's already a power imbalance stemming from race & sexuality, and the withholding or resistance of knowledge in a teacher/student dynamic. The whole point is about POWER & CONTROL. It's not that one has all the power/control & the other one has none. It's about who has MORE than their FAIR share. That's what IMBALANCE means. 🤦🤦🤦 Yes, Louis allows Armand control over his life, and Armand takes ADVANTAGE of that trust and goes behind Louis' back & lies & schemes in ways that are a VIOLATION.

Just because Louis gains (temporary) socio-economic status/power as Lestat's lover does NOT mean that he is EQUAL to Lestat, and just because he loves Lestat & WANTS to be with him doesn't mean he NEVER recognizes the ways that he IS under Lestat's thrall--

"in the well with no bottom" | "We're not slaves. Maybe mindless accomplices." | "We were compelled to sleep in the same chamber together again. He would have it no other way. We would spend our hours enduring, with little pretense of getting along, locked together in hatred. He would have it no other way."

--and Daniel constantly called BS whenever Lou tried denying it:

"White master, Black student, but equal in the quiet dark." | "It's the abused-abuser psychological relationship I'm talking about. I mean, usually when you're a little too close to it, the abused still loves the abuser, but you flipped it completely on its head! Years later, you talk like he was your soul mate, like you were locked in some f**ked up gothic romance!" | "'He only beat me the one time, Officer. It's not his fault!' Classic Stockholm, eh, Doc?"

Here @pynkhues says they're not racist cuz they started reading two (2) papers on Black gender & sexuality--congrats. Thousands more to go, but you'll get there! 👍 Good news though: you don't have to read ANYTHING to see with your own 2 eyes what the show itself is messaging. The very fact that Black!Louis moves into LESTAT'S HOUSE the entire time they were together is a glaring red GAY flag. book!/film!Loustat lived in LOUIS' house, until Lou burned the plantation down and they purchased a home in NOLA together (with Lou's money). AMC!Louis doesn't TRULY embody Black masculinity, cuz it's a facade; he has a target on his back the entire time he's with Lestat; EVERYONE has something homophobic to say about Lou even associating with that flaming "queer, half queer" WHITE man (x x).

You know good & dang well that WOMEN were supposed to marry in & move in--NOT the men. Louis already had a mansion in his name--wtf is he doing moving into Lestat's townhouse on the white side of town like a WIFE? You know the whole DPDL family dynamic's further screwed up, cuz Levi's a mooch who ALSO MOVES IN, rather than doing what the man was expected to do and providing his bride with a home of HIS own.

I laughed up a storm when we found out Lestat gave Louis the deed--because it's ODD: interracial gay relationships were illegal, and Black people weren't allowed to own prime real estate in the segregated French Quarter where 1132 is. Lestat bought the house FOR Louis, but the Black people in Louis' life KNOW Louis' not embodying Black masculinity and TELL him so to his face: "Your white Daddy | The Housewife | etc." Louis tells Florence "it's half a mile BOTH ways, Mamawn," but Florence won't even set FOOT in 1132, which even the white folk know has "weird goings-on in that sodomite townhouse." The Alderman even tells Louis to put Lestat as "the public face of your operations" cuz he's white and he's the only one anyone's gonna listen to & respect, even though Louis allegedly gained REAL social status. 🙄

Lestat is the honeytrap BECAUSE white men listen to white men and are more receptive to them--on top of the fact that Lou'd already explained that the Azalea worked as a "revolving door of prey" so Loustat could EAT the Johns (mostly Lestat, cuz Lou'd already started hating killing people)--TOURISTS like the white man who asked them directions for the Fairplay. Les takes the man cuz he's going to EAT HIM. He asks him how long he's in town, to confirm if anyone would NOTICE when he goes MISSING. Pynkhues' post also conflates/ignores the timeline of events, as if Lou's a housewife DURING the time he owns the Azalea, which....NO. Claudia's housewife quote in 1x5 (c. 1925) and Louis owning the Azalea PRE-Claudia in 1x2-1x3 (c. 1910-1917) are 2 radically different contexts. 🤦 Yes, Lou IS revelling in his newfound high social status, and yes, he insists on paying Lestat back specifically so no one can throw the fact that he had to borrow the money to buy the Fairplay in his face. But this is NOT about Lestat as the "placating partner while Lou's king of the castle"--in front of all the most important white businessmen in the city, Lestat DISMISSES the Azalea as "Louis' HOBBY," just like rich husbands who keep their wives busy & happy buying them silly little nail salons & florist shops & dog grooming salons & fashion shops to run! (x x) 💀 Back then, male pimps/gangsters like IRL Tom Anderson owned brothels, but they sure AF didn't RUN them--that was the MADAME'S job, for women like IRL Bricktop Jackson. Louis was doing WOMEN'S WORK. By marrying Lestat, Louis' "civil death" was in full swing, it just took Storyville burning as the final nail in the coffin. After that, Lou's thoroughly domesticated and doesn't interact with businessmen like Tom Anderson for YEARS.

This applies not just to AMC!Loustat, but to book/film Loustat, too:

Louis is NOT the dominant one in Loustat's relationship--he's patently submissive, as he either willingly/reluctantly capitulates to the whims & demands of everyone around him--from society at large, to his biological family--to even his Blood family, yanked around by Lestat AND Claudia for his eating habits to his leaving NOLA. From Louis' conception by AR, the theme of SLAVERY was a main point--not just book!Lou's status as a slaveowner(par for the course for moneyed French white colonists in the 19th century American South), but also the power imbalance between Loustat that manifested as "need and control, with one vampire dominating another for companionship or slavery."

Lestat represents the man Anne wanted to be, as she was sick & tired of how victimized & depressed & submissive & CONTROLLED she (Louis) felt under her husband Stan (Lestat). Just because Louis mouths off does NOT mean he's the one in control--the stalemate at 1132 existed because Louis REFUSED TO ACT. His INACTION in the face of Lestat's domineering behavior was because he was afraid of the consequences of what would happen if he DID defend himself & stand up & exert kinetic resistance (a la the Alderman) or action (a la Grace's door): his power was in his submission, like I've said 1000x.

Mouthy Black people getting put in their place is the whole point of another Black Horror/psychological thriller with interracial dynamics, Antebellum (2020). Not giving away too much of the movie, cuz it has a major plot twist, but the visual motifs are all about covering/opening the mouth, cuz the story's about a bunch of people known for being vocal for Black empowerment, who're rounded up & sold into slavery to be tortured, raped & killed by their white masters. The mater of main character Eve (played by the GOAT Janelle Monae) claims to "love" her even as he rapes & beats her; traumatizing her so badly that she goes silent & is too scared to help the other slaves run away to freedom, for fear that she'll be BURNED again--her master burned an an iron brand on her, marking her as his property. The monsters are the white slaveowners. The film can be hard to watch cuz they don't shy away from graphic scenes; it's horrific.

Just like Louis all throughout S1, and Lou & Claudia at the Trial, they're forced into silence & punished for speaking up to defend themselves or exert any autonomy--which RACISTS see as "disrespect." 🙄😒 And Claudia's burned alive, her own words used against her to damn her to death. And Louis' memories are used against him, everyone from Lestat to Armand to even Daniel contradicting his words, till he can't be sure what's true or not, and just goes with whatever the white man says, he's been worn down so badly. UNLIKE Claudia, he CANNOT run away from Dubai--Armand wiped that impulse from him after his final "eff off and find me later" in 1973 SanFran. And we're just left with Armand's word that he was telling the truth about Louis "asking" him to.

Louis ENCOURAGES Claudia to leave & be free THRICE OVER:

1x5 when she runs away and Loustat BOTH let her leave--(Louis begs her not to go, but never actually STOPS her, cuz he KNOWS she's right to be mad at him. He spends the next 7 years sending out telepathic apologies, letting her know that he still loves & misses her and that she has a home to come back to--but that return is always on HER terms, NEVER his.)

1x6 when SHE asks him to come to Europe with her and HE tells her: "You don't need me. You think you do, but you don't. You're smarter now. You see trouble coming a mile away." LESTAT was the one who dragged her back home like a runaway slave!

ALL OF S2: "New Orleans, unhappy. Vampire homeland, unhappy. Paris, unhappy. Comes the coven, you're beaming like the whole world went technicolor. I didn't want to wreck that for you. You picked the coven! You left me! Go sit in your choice, Sister!" HE asks HER if they can go back home in 2x1; he follows HER lead, as he does from 1x6 all the way to 2x6 when he makes Madeleine for her so they can LEAVE Paris together--without him. ARMAND is the one who uses her family reunion with Louis as a trap to have them all hamstrung through the BONE so they cant escape when he puts them on Trial & kills Claudia, then spends the next 77 years covering up the details.

Coercing Emotionally leveraging her rebirth in 1x4 & physically assaulting her in 1x7 - Yes, agreed.

Lou's less concerned with "influencing Claudia's DIET" as he is about her SADISM/"extravagance" that LESTAT kept enabling/encouraging. His whole point about killing is that "you don't have to humiliate them;" then WHAT happens in 2x7? He outright tells Claudia when she's grossed out by him drinking fish blood that "it's not just what you eat. You can kill quick and painless." His open disgust over THEIR diet is no better or worse than THEIR open disgust for HIS. And they BOTH ganged up on him in 1x6 to force him to agree to Lestat rule about "when he hunt, we hunt HUMAN," rather than going by what Lou said: "I eat what I eat, she eats what she eats, we RESPECT our differences." But as soon as Lestat was back in the house & exerting more & more authority, the balance between Louis & Claudia evaporated. And even in 2x2 Paris, Armand noticed that "the male hunted to please HER."

WHEN does Louis guilt Claudia into staying? 🤨 LESTAT guilts Claudia into staying in his threats on the train.

Louis threw Lestat out of LOUIS' house; he got the deed baby! And Lestat had already BEEN gone--Lou just confirmed that Les could STAY that way--but NOTHING lil ole Claudia & crippled Lou could've done would've ACTUALLY stopped Les from waltzing back into that house, be serious. (As for Antoinette, who CARES?! 🤣 That's what that skank gets for sleeping with a married man!)

What does Louis being a former pimp have to do with how he treated Claudia? Did he pimp Claudia out to the public for money and have her walking the streets to promote his businesses and punish her when she refused? NO. But you know who DID treat her that way? ARMAND. And you know who told Armand that he didn't like it? LOUIS. (Please miss me with any & all pimp arguments.)

Louis definitely threatened Grace at the funeral, yes, but when did he strong arm his mother? 🤨 She was the one who refused to let him in his own house to see his sister & nieces (whom SHE was busy badmouthing to so they'd be afraid of him). Levi literally tried to FIGHT Louis to keep Louis off his own property, when LEVI'S useless arse never contributed one red cent to LOUIS' house! The door getting kicked in was an accident, but OH FRIKKIN WELL, it's HIS door. (Miss me with any & all talk about Florence & Levi, omg.)

Yes, Miss Lily was expendable. But her death was all wrapped up in Lestat's relentless barrage of Come to Me, leading to Lou's drunken suicidal death spiral running to the confession booth screaming about how he wanted to die cuz he was a dirty gay sinning pimp whose family hated him. He had no time to mourn Lily. He BARELY had time to mourn Paul. And once he was a newlywed getting his back blown out to the rings of Saturn every night, sorrynotsorry but chile ain't nobody thinking about the woman he paid to sit in a room and talk to him! 😅

If Louis had been literally any other pimp, and if the Alderman wasn't suffering from chronic Jungle Fever smitten with her, Bricktop would've been DEAD. It was illegal during Jim Crow for Black people to even look white folk in the eye without their permission--"get your hand off me, N****r!," let alone bash their skull in and cuss them out "You put a SIR on the end of that!" Be serious, and understand the gravity of the situation in that scene, and how remarkable it was that Bricktop was NOT tossed to the wolves, where the Alderman would've been able to do WAY worse than sodomize her. It's wild AF how modern white folk are more ignorant about the history of racism than Black people, like wtf.

Yes, Louis helped curse her into damnation as a vampire--in the book/film he drains her & almost kills her, and Lestat brings her back as a vamp; while AMC!Lou's actions killing the Alderman was the catalyst sparking the racist white people burning Storyville down--and Claudia's house with it. 😡 The "monstrousness" Pynkhues nastily accuses Louis of is willfully misdirected to absolve the white racists of blame in order to damn Louis. His killing that p.o.s. Alderman is NOT a Byronic act, its VIGILANTISM due to the RACISM he experienced at the Aldermand's hands, that he stood up against by killing him and then IMMEDIATELY REGRETTING IT as he saw the devastation that happened to Storyville--the Bryonic hero does not REGRET/REPENT his misdeeds--as you cited above! 🤦 Claudia is indeed "trapped in the body of a little girl," but Louis does NOT "imprison/trap" Claudia in that house--just like Paul, he was the one encouraging her to be free & LEAVE when he knew he wouldn't.

As such, misreadings like this totally miss the mark of Louis' character arc, and I'm mind boggled. "Defiance" had NOTHING to do with Louis leaving NOLA--he regretted leaving Lestat the entire time, and was constantly hallucinating Lestat cuz he just wanted to go back home--and the SECOND he got free of Armand's shenanigans, he was back on a plane and in a car driving WHERE? To NOLA. And WHY? "I came to see you," LESTAT. And any "defiance" against Armand would've amounted to EFF ALL if Daniel hadn't gotten the real script from the Talamasca.

Gothic Heroines - Female Gothic vs Male Gothic

And guess what? Queer Gothic sits in the middle of this venn diagram--or rather, it creates a brand new paradigm where vampiric Gothic Horror stories written by a white woman in the 1970s about a white bisexual man can now be adapted in the 2020s by a white male showrunner and his MULTICULTURAL TEAM of male AND female writers about a Black gay man who represents male AND female social anxieties & struggles alike.

Westengard, Laura. "Queer Gothic Literature and Culture." Twentieth Century Gothic (2022): 259-272.

Claudia & Louis often SHARE/SPLIT the role of the Gothic Heroine--deuteragonists are a thing after all. It does NOT "diminish Claudia's arc;" instead, it lends her a more nuanced characterization, BECAUSE there are ways that she CANNOT fulfill certain Gothic Heroine tropes on her own--she's A CHILD, ffs. Louis is Claudia's surrogate adult male/female the way Lestat is Gabrielle's surrogate adult male/female.

As I've said b4 (x x), Louis is the Mina Harker/Ellen Hutter to Lestat's Dracula/Orlock--there's no way on god's green earth that anyone can seriously claim that Lestat's the female-coded character in the Dracula/Nosferatu framework of vampiric gothic horror--or any of its incarnations, from Twilight to True Blood; Louis is the Bella/Sookie, NOT Lestat (or Armand). But Lou is ALSO the Jonathan Harker/Thomas Hutter--and SO IS CLAUDIA, who does double duty as the Lucy Westenra/Anna Harding, too.

In S1 Claudia assumes the "masculine" agency Louis is expected to have as the male protagonist, but fails to live up to due to all of those character traits (typically perceived as weak & "feminine"). He's not the damsel in distress, but CLAUDIA thinks he is ("the housewife;" "we're his slaves, and I will free us both!"), and acts accordingly. Claudia/Thomas/Jonathan has consulted the scholarly experts on vampires (her vampire books | Dr. Van Helsing/Prof. Von Franz) and returns from a long period of absence (ran away from home | traveled to Dracula/Orlok's castle) to warn her companion (Louis/Ellen/Mina) about the dangers of the Big Bad Vampire corrupting them ("His love is a small box he keeps you in, don't stay in it!" | "He seeks after Ellen, I know it!" | "I know where the bastard sleeps!"). C/T/J struggles to reconcile their desperation to save their loved one with the realization that said loved one is connected to the vampire by a bond stronger than they can understand or meddle with (Loustat's cord you cannot see | DracuMina's crossing oceans of time | Orllen's dream-possession). She's not the main heroine, but C/T/J still wins a significant victory by purging the world of the other threat/impediment lurking (Antoinette/Herr Knock/Renfield).

But S2!Claudia ultimately reifies the Gothic heroine format; "victimized, virginal and powerless while being pursued by villainous men." This isn't a return to the format, since she never left it--in S1 she also represents the Lucy/Anna; the main character's closest friend & confidante, who's viciously targeted by The Vampire--either as the bait to lure his primary love interest under his influence, or to demonstrate just how much control he has over everyone's lives. Bruce, Lestat, Santiago, Armand, and even Sam all participate in her murder; but LOUIS is also a victim of the Trial, powerless to help himself or either of his daughters--a la Anna/Friedrich Harding.

Anne Rice & Self-Inserts

Last part, cuz I've hit Tumblr's image limit, grrr! Something I almost never see anyone talk about wrt Anne Rice & LDPDL is how much alcoholism was a major inspo for her vampires. Sure, on the surface one can easily say: Lord Byron was an alcoholic bisexual depressed pretty boy drug addict etc etc too. But for AR, vamps are the Embodiment of Thirst (famously levied against book!Armand), and a large part of Louis' morose depression stems from his fighting his cravings for drink--alcohol as a human & blood as a vampire; following AR's experiences with her own alcoholic mother, whose "helplessness and need [for alcohol] echoed in Louis' mannerisms: guilt, insecurity, helplessness, a sense of isolation and secrecy, low self-esteem over-reaction to criticism, and intense sadness."

Everyone on the anti-Femme!Louis side is always quick to dismiss the AR evidence as irrelevant cuz Lestat was AR's self-insert, too~~! Sure, ALL characters that authors write are to some degree a self-insert, or based on different facets of themselves. But Louis is THE Titular Vampire, and the one she originally framed TVC's narrative around, to focus on Claudia's relationship/impact on him. His depression is HERS for losing her child and resenting her husband, and her MOTHER'S for her alcoholism. And I already discussed gendered Gothic Victorian depression/melancholy/mental illness wrt Louis/Ellen here.

Evidence has been provided from Jacob Anderson, the showrunners, and even Anne Rice herself about the femme-coded dynamics, motifs & influences used to create Black!LDPDL as AMC's racebent gay Black take on Anne Rice's originally bisexual Caucasian 19th century book/film character; but this is usually conveniently downplayed or outright dismissed by those who insist on seeing Louis as a perpetuation of the racist Black stereotype of the hyper-aggressive sexually dominant hyper-masculine threat to white/female innocence--a la his portrayal in the Theatre of Vampires' smear campaign of a Trial in 2x7, which was specifically designed to sentence him and his Black daughter Claudia to death for their "crimes" against the white male co-lead Lestat de Lioncourt.

As a femme!Louis Truther, I've been increasingly agitated by the gross inequity of the fandom's ready & willing acceptance of all the parts of Lestat that are femme-coded, and the otherwise blatant & willful ignorance of Louis' in kind. Lestat, the campy fan-favorite, is more popularly accepted in the feminine role, largely on account of his being their Maker, his aesthetic appeal to white feminine norms: his long-haired blondeness, and especially his exaggerated mannerisms; which are seen as feminine by modern audiences, but are actually a gender subversion in and of itself, as a hallmark of masculine ideals in 18th/19th century Europe--a historical fact that somehow never factors into how Lestat is analyzed by his fans (even the ones who hold media literacy and nuances about 19th century Gothic contexts oh-so-sacred). Instead, they fail to see past his epidermal layers to get to the substrata of his character/behavioral dynamics vis a vis that of his Black counterpart Louis.

It ticks me off something fierce, cuz I see it for what it is: RACISM--the inability of white people to see Black!Louis as a vehicle by which he can be related to on a (white)feminine level, let alone in classically heteronormative predominately white Gothic Horror or Gothic Romance that demonizes The Other: monsters, gays & Black people alike. AMC!Louis never stood a chance with y'all bigots; but y'all hide behind media literacy & white!feminism rather than just speaking your biases with your whole chest.

[ca-suffit]

re: nobody defending Armand. Not only is he not being defended, I see a lot of people (from both sides of the argument regarding episode 8) assuming things that weren't said about his involvement in the trial. I've seen people say that he wrote and orquestrated the whole thing, when Daniel only said that he directed the play. We've seen before (with My Baby Loves Windows) that Armand directs plays that are not his, he provides notes and stage direction, which is not the same as writing the play. The coven could have forced him to direct the play, and Armand's blame would lie in the fact that he did not try hard enough to stop them and that he lied to Louis. Santiago even takes credit for the play when he's taunting Louis, but because we were shown that Armand can be a dickhead and a liar then that means he must surely be evil in every single way, which is not the treatment that Lestat gets from most of the fandom. The lack of nuance when addressing these characters is a problem in general (I live in fear that Lestat will get flanderized) but it's really noticeable how extreme and malicious it gets with characters of color.

(context)

Assad has already flat out said that Armand was forced to do the play as well and the fandom is ignoring tf out of that

Zaman tells TV Insider’s Damian Holbrook that Armand was “forced” to direct the trial and that all of his subsequent punishment from the coven was “absolutely true.”

“He directed it, but it wasn’t his choice to do it,” Zaman says. (src)

If this were a white character and/or Lestat, it would be plastered in the tags every day.

The fandom has been afraid of this happening since the end of S1 (contrary to the lies being pushed all the time, a lot of ppl always distrusted Armand and knew something was wrong, whether they were book readers or not), but the choices the show made on top of it have made it worse.

I've seen posts claiming that Armand was full body controlling Lestat and making him speak during the trial as well. What???

So we see Lestat abuse Louis and he's admitted to that in canon now as well, but that's the part we're still supposed to think is a lie (according to the fandom)? But with Armand it's just....whatever evil thing u want to make up is prbly true. Ok. Despite Sam just saying all this about Lestat the other week too.

There's such clear parallels between how the show is treating Lestat and Armand and how both have "more" to their stories than we've seen yet. But only Lestat gets cushioned from it all almost entirely, not only by the fandom but the show itself as well between the episodes and the interviews with cast and crew.

Lestat is like "dickhead (affectionate, his background excuses it and it's sassy white gay rep anyway)" and Armand is like "dickhead (said to be affectionate but?? idk why, he was just born like that ig lol [ignores his backstory that involves sex slavery]"

[nalyra-dreaming]

The Louis/Lestat hate should come as no surprise. The fandom has always been overly harsh on Lestat AND on Louis. It just depends on what group you associate with how much hate you see for each. As a true "stan" of each of them individually and as a couple, I've moved between both circles and have often found myself annoyed and disappointed with both groups because many of them are hypocrites to but it lightly. Now I'm not referring to those who have a favorite but are respectful of other's opinions and ships or those who can admit both had flaws while still enjoying them, I'm referring to the "extremists" that irrationally hate either Lestat or Louis for reasons that are in direct conflict with the show's narrative and what they think should  happen so they make everyone miserable. 

Many Loumand shippers and Louis extremists hate Lestat irrationally even after learning he was not at fault for everything and the recollection is unreliable. Instead of accepting its canon, they cry that it's lazy writing and/or racism at the fact that Lestat was not one hundred percent to blame for the deterioration of the relationship or Claudia's demise.

Then you have your Nickistat/Lesmand shippers and Lestat extremists who hate Louis irrationally because they think everything Lestat, Armand, and Claudia did wrong was all his fault despite the show taking the time to provide us a well thought out backstory to explain reasons for why he is the way he is. And I'm not talking about those who say Louis is imperfect and without blame, I'm referring to the ones saying things like Louis deserved to get to get beat/dropped from the sky or Louis should get killed off and replaced with Nicki. A lot of these ones are racists.

The fandom also has a pattern of throwing one under the bus to defend the other.  They start wishing Sam or Jacob off the show so they don't have to "deal with their fans" not realizing they sound exactly like the group they are offended by for saying something about their fave.  Through season 2 Lestat extremists complained that Lestat wasn't featured enough and should have been lead, the show should have started with TVL, and continuously cried that Louis/Loumand were boring instead of respecting that the show was honoring the book's formulation and patiently waiting their turn to see Lestat take the lead. On the other hand, we had Louis extremists complaining that Lestat and his whole 30  minutes of combined screen time for the season was unnecessary or "too much". 

Now, the arguments continue to be hypocritical on both sides, but it's either "the show shouldn't change things to give Louis more screen time for season 3, that's not book accurate" (who were the same people demanding Lestat had more screen time season 2, despite that not being in the books) or we have the "Louis should not get pushed out of the lead and they better have him in season 3"  (who are the very same people that didn't want Sam in s2). 

Hypocrites and haters, but it's always been both characters targeted and overly heavily criticized. 

It's interesting that the one that seems to get the most sympathy and is most well received with either group is Armand. Especially after the end of season 2.

((Yeah well, they haven't seen much of Armand yet - and what they have seen was a very sanitized version. And further softened by his background. So that's understandable.))

[puc-puggy]

he can also only imagine enacting power through someone else. domestic power is a trait that we would currently associate with femininity, but that's because women currently occupy the economic position associated with it. they didn't always, especially when slavery was practiced. exactly as you said, armand was a slave whose formative experiences were sex work and domestic servitude. an owned thing who was used but nevertheless needed and relied upon to meet their user's needs. and when someone needs you to meet a need, there's your leverage. you can get them to do things for you that you can't do for yourself, exercise power you don't have through them. potential for great influence but harshly limited by political structure and social custom.

armand literally doesn't know how to act with autonomy, he only knows how to influence a master. that's why lestat rejected him. like he was literally in charge of the paris coven. he acts like he needed lestat to convince the coven to change the rules, but he could have changed them at literally any time. it's an autocracy and he was in charge. but he wasn't trained to use the tools of an autocrat, he was only taught to use the tools of a slave, the soft power of domestic tyranny. lestat was a tool that armand knew how to use.

thoughts get a lot less organized from here on idk

armand is very sensitive to power politics, he comments frequently on the power of louis' blood. i imagine he was aware of how powerful lestat would become as well. but armand is also power hungry. not just in the way that he feels a desperate need for enough power to protect himself, but also because he wants to Be Powerful. he wants to be In Control, he enjoys the feeling of having power over others. and that impacts who he chooses as his tools.

like. he wanted louis and lestat both to step into the role of Easily Manipulated Master. i think he wanted to manipulate louis into leading the coven in a new direction, as he did with lestat. but lestat refused the master bit and louis could not be less interested in coven business or vampire politics. louis only stuck around for as much as it took to keep claudia satisfied and in good graces. when claudia had the nerve to change her part instead of quietly acquiesce to being driven mad/to suicide and seek satisfying companionship when it became clear the coven would refuse to provide it, armand saw the loss of his only real leverage over louis, at which point it became clear he would never be a useful tool for manipulating the coven and he and claudia both became more of a liability than anything else.

then he lost power in the coven, and power-blood louis started looking a lot more attractive again.

Why doesn’t Armand ever do anything for himself or even fight back? Or scream, or cry, or do literally anything besides accept what’s happening? Probably because screaming, or crying, or fighting back never did anything for him when he was a child. I can’t imagine any of those methods were effective against slavers or ship captains or Marius.

[northprompt]

Loustat prompt

Warning for domestic abuse, mention of domestic violence and angst.

Four times they shared a coffin and one time they didn't.

One.

On the second night of Louis becoming a vampire he didn't bother to protest about sleeping in a coffin with Lestat, truthfully it hadn't been as uncomfortable, or as horrifying, as he had feared.

After they both changed into pjs, Louis' provided by Lestat, since he was avoiding going home for awhile. They climbed into Lestat's coffin together, Lestat automatically slinging an arm around Louis.

Louis lay there quietly, replaying the murder of the day, his second victim.

"Do not worry Louis, these feelings will pass soon, and trouble you no more." Lestat reassured him, stroking a hand over Louis' chest soothingly.

Louis nodded uncertainly, he somehow doubted his feelings of guilt and despair would pass. But he wanted to please Lestat, he didn't like it when they disagreed, so he he nodded.

 Two.

 The first time Louis drank blood from a drunk human, he staggered home and up he stairs giggling as he went, he fell over more than once on the way. Lestat was already home, having left Louis to his work at the Azaelea earlier.

Lestat opened his coffin lid when he heard Louis stumble into the room, he watched Louis fumble taking his clothes off for a moment before he spoke.

"Louis are you drunk?" Lestat asked amused, he smirked when Louis clumsily tripped out of his trousers.

Louis turned to glare at Lestat, "Why didn't you warn me this could happen?"

Lestat smiled, "It slipped my mind Louis, I have been too busy trying to get you to drink anyone to worry about your choice in victim."

Louis was too intoxicated to think of a good retort so he threw his waistcoat in Lestat's general direction, it missed by quite a distance, and the blonde vampire watched Louis with bemusement as the man walked over to the coffin and suddenly dropped into it. He landed on top of Lestat's body with an umph. Lestat grunted at the impact.

Louis lay back and began tugging at a strand of Lestat's hair, twirling it around his finger, while the other man begrudgingly rolled onto his side so Louis' weight was no longer crushing him.

The younger vampire fell asleep quickly and began snoring, a habit he usually did not do, Lestat regarded his beautiful face for a minute before leaning up and pulling the coffin lid close. He glanced at Louis' empty coffin before laying down and coiling himself around the other man.

 Three.

 Not long after Claudia joined their family, Lestat hopped into Louis' coffin as soon as he heard her gentle snores. Louis eagerly opened his arms to enclose Lestat, sharing a deep kiss.

Louis pulled away first, "I didn't mean what I said that day, you know that right?"

Lestat cradled Louis face, he knew the day Louis was referring to, the day they fought and Louis rescued Claudia.

"I know Louis, we get passionate when we fight, because we are in love." Lestat replied sincerely.

Louis glanced away at that, avoiding saying he loved Lestat was difficult but necessary, he may love him but he did not trust him.

Instead Louis said, "You won't be alone, we're your family."

Lestat blinked rapidly, emotion clouding his voice, "We will always have each other."

 Four.

 In the years that Claudia was gone, Louis and Lestat barely touched, and could not hold a conversation with one another for more than a few minutes before an argument erupted.

During the night Lestat would leave Louis to mourn in their home, and go join Antionette for an evening of partying and fucking.

Louis had a particularly difficult last few days, he didn't eat, he couldn't even read, he hadn't spoken to anyone, including Lestat during that time. He went to the coffin room early, Lestat still wasn't home, he pulled his pjs over his skinny body and lay in the dark of his coffin.

He heard Lestat enter about an hour later, he didn't attempt to speak to Louis at first, instead he changed and then threw open the lid to to Louis' coffin without warning.

"Have you done anything today but mope around?" Lestat asked him sneering down.

Louis blinked up at Lestat, feeling enraged and exhausted at the same time.

"Have you done anything but cheat on me with Antionette?" Louis snapped back, then rolled onto his side so he didn't have to look at the blonde.

He felt as though he may cry and didn't want to show weakness to Lestat, when arguing with the man it was best to be cold and unemotional he had learned, the arguments usually ended faster that way.

Lestat had no issue becoming emotional during a disagreement, "At least she pays attention to me, unlike you. She isn't dour, scornful and hateful towards me whenever I so much as enter the room."

"Then go live with her," Louis replied tiredly. "I was just trying to sleep here, I didn't say anything to you. You began this fight."

Lestat glared down at his partner, then he scoffed and said, "One day I won't come home Louis. And you can just lie here by your miserable self and pine for Claudia, who doesn't give two shits about you."

Lestat slammed the lid down violently, making Louis flinch, then went and climbed into his own coffin.

Louis lay there for perhaps another hour, he coughed a few times to muffle the sound of him crying. Lestat always knew where best to strike out.

Realizing he would not sleep that morning, he climbed out of his coffin as quietly as possible, and crept downstairs. Louis sat in front of the fire place, avoiding the sun streaming in out of habit rather than any real concern. He sat there for hours, managing to calm his emotions down after awhile, he didn't want to return to the coffin room and argue with Lestat when the sun went down.

A voice startled him from his stupor of looking into the empty fireplace.

"Are you coming back to coffin Louis?" Lestat asked hesitantly from the doorway.

Louis glanced over at him, he didn't know how long he had been standing there.

Louis looked away and swallowed a lump in his throat, "Yes." He said softly.

He rose and followed Lestat back upstairs, Lestat closed them into the room and watched as the other man climbed into his coffin. Before Louis could close to coffin lid, Lestat caught it and wordlessly climbed in beside him.

Louis automatically rolled onto to his side to make room for him. Lestat draped an arm over Louis and closed his eyes.

"Don't leave me," Louis whispered.

Lestat snapped his eyes open and gave Louis a gentle look, "I will never leave you, Louis, my Louis." He began peppering kisses all over Louis' face. "I love you. I hate it when you cry Louis, it hurts me more than anything else could."

Louis basked in the attention, he had missed the Frenchman, even if he would never admit it.

"Goodnight Louis." Lestat whispered.

 The time they didn't.

 On the first night Lestat returned home after their three year separation, there was only one coffin available. Lestat didn't mind in fact he was rather pleased, Louis however was less so. Despite having had sex with Lestat earlier he now felt engulfed by his proximity. Not able to help but recall the way Lestat had beaten, clawed and thrown him around the last time they were in this room together.

Lestat had caught the flinch Louis gave when he first climbed into the coffin that morning, he was too ashamed to address it, he wasn't surprised Louis was skittish of him now.

They lay side by side not touching, Louis feigned sleep, while Lestat tried to make himself smaller so not to take up too much space.

Louis couldn't take it anymore, memories of Lestat tackling him through the wall of the bedroom and dragging him into the courtyard plagued his mind. He gave up trying to sleep and without speaking to Lestat, climbed out of the coffin and gently closed the lid behind himself.

He wandered into the bedroom and lay down on the bed, he looked at the broken armoire in the corner of the room and remembered Lestat breaking it with Louis' body.

Lestat followed after Louis after he realized he wasn't returning to the coffin. He knelt on the floor next to the bed by Louis, and ran a hand through Louis' hair.

"Never again Louis." Lestat told him in French. "I won't ever lay a hand on you again."

Louis nodded and allowed Lestat to keep stroking his hair, he wasn't ready to face the enclosed space, but this gentle touch wasn't so bad.

'Are you sure about this Louis?' Claudia's voice rang out his mind.

'It will work this time." Louis sent back. At least he hoped it would.

[cosmicjoke]

@monstersinthecosmos​ @ sounds-of-some-day  Great points both of you!

RJ’s intentions definitely seem to be heading in this direction of thinking Lestat needs redemption.  Which is just... wrong.  It shows a fundamental lack of understanding this character.  Lestat never needed redemption in terms of his relationship with Louis in the books.  Louis realizes that Lestat didn’t actually do anything all that bad to him and Claudia, not with malicious intent anyway, and therefor, he realizes that what Claudia does to Lestat was all kinds of messed up, that his allowing it to happen was wrong, and it helps Louis to later connect with Lestat in a way he wasn’t able to initially. 

Comparing this to Westworld, you could say the exact same thing about the original book and “The Vampire Lestat”.  That is, everything happened exactly as Louis tells it in the first book (minus a few things), but everything he told in his story is recontextualized when we hear Lestat’s side of the story.  Suddenly, Lestat’s behavior with Louis and Claudia is made understandable, his behavior is shown in a sympathetic and understandable light.  We realize, upon learning about Lestat’s past and his own experiences and trauma’s, that nothing he ever did with Louis or Claudia was done with the intent to harm, that he never meant any ill will or cruelty.  He was just fucked up from everything he’d been through and it snowballed into compounded misunderstandings and problems in their relationship.  We see through the information provided by Lestat’s story that Lestat genuinely loved and cared for Louis and Claudia the whole time, and never meant for things to go the way they did.

But here in the show... apparently, they’ve just chucked all that out the window, all that nuance and complexity, in favor of “Lestat is bad.  Lestat does a good deed.  Lestat is redeemed.”  It’s infinitely less interesting, infinitely less compelling, and makes Lestat infinitely less sympathetic as a character.  Lestat is TRAGIC in the books.  You feel for him so much because he wants so badly to do and be good, and he struggles towards that, fighting against his very own nature as a vampire at times, but he keeps getting tripped up and messed up, either through his own life experiences and the trauma he’s carrying around with him, or through his impulsivity and tendency of leaping before he looks, etc...  Lestat is fascinating because he ISN’T a bad person, (and don’t come at me with “he kills people, he’s bad”.  He’s a vampire.  It’s in a vampire’s very nature to kill, like any predatory animal, like a cat) but he ends up more often than not still getting things wrong or with things falling apart for him.  Not because he’s a bad guy and needs to get his ass handed to him, or needs karma to come down on his head, or because he needs his comeuppance, but because his tragic past and oft misunderstood personality so often get in the way of him.

there's something wonky about this show's logic to me which is the showrunner clearly wants to get to season 3 to do TVL but in order to get renewed for a season 3 they had to make louis a strong protagonist to carry his own 2 seasons, which they have, but now louis is the character everyone loves and cares about and you've instead made lestat soooo irredeemably awful in ways never seen in the book your new audience that loves louis is just like ehh i don't even wanna see this guy's backstory?? am i crazy or is this a truly strange way to plan a show.

yeah I get that they're trying to build a character arc toward redemption and that naturally starts with him doing bad things and being a bad person but my guy you didn't have to make the man beat the shit out of his husband to get there