#book jon snow you will never be forgotten

[souredfigs]

Oh Hello ! welcome home, Lord Commander Jon Snow

[agentrouka-blog]

Do you think Sansa would mind that Robb disinherited her? I haven’t read all the books, but I recently saw a Sansa’ quote that she never thought to have a claim

Well, he didn't disinherit her. He placed Jon ahead of her in the line of succession in order to foil the Lannister plan of claiming Winterfell through her.

Ultimately, I think this move would hurt Sansa far less than the knowledge that he could have traded for her but chose not to. Though I doubt GRRM will take the time to explore that. Sansa connects no personal ambition to her claim, though she grows to connect it to her sense of home and belonging and return.

Sansa always had a place in the line of succession. The quote you refer to highlights how unlikely she considered it to become relevant:

But she had not forgotten his words, either. The heir to Winterfell, she would think as she lay abed at night. It's your claim they mean to wed. Sansa had grown up with three brothers. She never thought to have a claim, but with Bran and Rickon dead . . . It doesn't matter, there's still Robb, he's a man grown now, and soon he'll wed and have a son. Anyway, Willas Tyrell will have Highgarden, what would he want with Winterfell? (ASOS, Sansa II)

Later, she is well aware of what this claim means for her. It makes her a target of other people's ambitions.

Tyrell or Lannister, it makes no matter, it's not me they want, only my claim. (ASOS, Sansa III)

At least I am safe here. Joffrey is dead, he cannot hurt me anymore, and I am only a bastard girl now. Alayne Stone has no husband and no claim. And her aunt would soon be here as well. The long nightmare of King's Landing was behind her, and her mockery of a marriage as well. She could make herself a new home here, just as Petyr said. [...] The thought made Sansa weary. All she knew of Robert Arryn was that he was a little boy, and sickly. It is not me she wants her son to marry, it is my claim. No one will ever marry me for love. But lying came easy to her now.  (ASOS, Sansa VI)

GRRM begins the next chapter by having Sansa rebuild the entire castle from memory using snow. Which is pretty heavy-handed symbolism that depicts - without spelling it out - a growing sense of identification with her claim, with the role of bearing the legacy of House Stark and Winterfell. It is not ambition so much a responsibility and personal attachment that guides her.

The next books culminates with a re-emergance of her claim's importance:

 Jon Arryn's bannermen will never love me, nor our silly, shaking Robert, but they will love their Young Falcon . . . and when they come together for his wedding, and you come out with your long auburn hair, clad in a maiden's cloak of white and grey with a direwolf emblazoned on the back . . . why, every knight in the Vale will pledge his sword to win you back your birthright. So those are your gifts from me, my sweet Sansa . . . Harry, the Eyrie, and Winterfell. That's worth another kiss now, don't you think?" (AFFC, Alayne II)

Regardless of the actual sincerity of this plan on Littlefinger's part, we are painted a credible image of what Sansa's claim means politically, and she accepts this function of her claim.

To find out that this claim is removed from her would always be ambiguous and depend on context. If she is displaced by Bran and Rickon, it means her beloved brothers are alive. She would be jubilant. If she is displaced by Jon Snow, she may feel more conflicted in knowing her brother Robb disposed of her relevance in this way and how her mother would have felt about it. This might also play into initial concerns on her part how Jon will deal with the competiton that her claim presents in a world where bastardy carries social stigma. It may well put her in danger from other people's politics again.

That is IF Robb's will even becomes public knowledge. GRRM may well keep its impact focused on what it means to Jon in tandem with the reveal of his parentage - giving him two optional identities to privately choose from that cancel out each other.

[esther-dot]

Do you think Jon and Sansa will meet again at Castle Black, and from there, they will plan to take Winterfell? Or will Sansa take Winterfell on her own and reunite with Jon along the way? I’m of the idea of two lost souls who, when united, find the strength in each other to take the land of their family. But I don’t know, I haven’t finished the books yet so I need guidance on this.

I don’t consider myself an ASOIAF expert, anon so I don't offer guidance, but I will def share my thoughts with you!

In order to talk about this, I'm afraid there are some ADWD spoilers, though. If you mind that, maybe revisit this post after you've read it? Short version, I agree with you. Sansa should be involved in retaking Winterfell because we need a Stark there:

Battles had been fought at Winterfell before, but never one without a Stark on one side or the other. (ADWD, Jon VII)

but I think the reunion happens first because of the The Girl in Grey theory. I'll explain more below the cut due to the major Jon spoiler.

In ADWD, a character named Melisandre tells Jon about a vision she has:

She stood beneath the scorched stones of the Lord Commander's Tower, cloaked in darkness and in memory. The light of the moon was in her hair, her red hair kissed by fire. When he saw that, Jon's heart leapt into his mouth. "Ygritte," he said. "Lord Snow." The voice was Melisandre's. Surprise made him recoil from her. "Lady Melisandre." He took a step backwards. "I mistook you for someone else." At night all robes are grey. Yet suddenly hers were red. He did not understand how he could have taken her for Ygritte. She was taller, thinner, older, though the moonlight washed years from her face. Mist rose from her nostrils, and from pale hands naked to the night. "You will freeze your fingers off," Jon warned. "If that is the will of R'hllor. Night's powers cannot touch one whose heart is bathed in god's holy fire." "You heart does not concern me. Just your hands."

"The heart is all that matters. Do not despair, Lord Snow. Despair is a weapon of the enemy, whose name may not be spoken. Your sister is not lost to you." "I have no sister." The words were knives. What do you know of my heart, priestess? What do you know of my sister? Melisandre seemed amused. "What is her name, this little sister that you do not have?" "Arya." His voice was hoarse. "My half-sister, truly …" "… for you are bastard born. I had not forgotten. I have seen your sister in my fires, fleeing from this marriage they have made for her. Coming here, to you. A girl in grey on a dying horse, I have seen it plain as day. It has not happened yet, but it will." She gazed at Ghost. "May I touch your … wolf?" The thought made Jon uneasy. "Best not." "He will not harm me. You call him Ghost, yes?" "Yes, but …" "Ghost." Melisandre made the word a song. The direwolf padded toward her. Wary, he stalked about her in a circle, sniffing. When she held out her hand he smelled that too, then shoved his nose against her fingers. Jon let out a white breath. "He is not always so …" "… warm? Warmth calls to warmth, Jon Snow." Her eyes were two red stars, shining in the dark. At her throat, her ruby gleamed, a third eye glowing brighter than the others. Jon had seen Ghost's eyes blazing red the same way, when they caught the light just right. "Ghost," he called. "To me." The direwolf looked at him as if he were a stranger. Jon frowned in disbelief. "That's … queer." "You think so?" She knelt and scratched Ghost behind his ear. "Your Wall is a queer place, but there is power here, if you will use it. Power in you, and in this beast. You resist it, and that is your mistake. Embrace it. Use it." I am not a wolf, he thought. "And how would I do that?" "I can show you." Melisandre draped one slender arm over Ghost, and the direwolf licked her face. "The Lord of Light in his wisdom made us male and female, two parts of a greater whole. In our joining there is power. Power to make life. Power to make light. Power to cast shadows." "Shadows." The world seemed darker when he said it. "Every man who walks the earth casts a shadow on the world. Some are thin and weak, others long and dark. You should look behind you, Lord Snow. The moon has kissed you and etched your shadow upon the ice twenty feet tall." Jon glanced over his shoulder. The shadow was there, just as she had said, etched in moonlight against the Wall. A girl in grey on a dying horse, he thought. Coming here, to you. Arya. He turned back to the red priestess. Jon could feel her warmth. She has power. The thought came unbidden, seizing him with iron teeth, but this was not a woman he cared to be indebted to, not even for his little sister. "Dalla told me something once. Val's sister, Mance Rayder's wife. She said that sorcery was a sword without a hilt. There is no safe way to grasp it." "A wise woman." Melisandre rose, her red robes stirring in the wind. "A sword without a hilt is still a sword, though, and a sword is a fine thing to have when foes are all about. Hear me now, Jon Snow. Nine crows flew into the white wood to find your foes for you. Three of them are dead. They have not died yet, but their death is out there waiting for them, and they ride to meet it. You sent them forth to be your eyes in the darkness, but they will be eyeless when they return to you. I have seen their pale dead faces in my flames. Empty sockets, weeping blood." She pushed her red hair back, and her red eyes shone. "You do not believe me. You will. The cost of that belief will be three lives. A small price to pay for wisdom, some might say … but not one you had to pay. Remember that when you behold the blind and ravaged faces of your dead. And come that day, take my hand." The mist rose from her pale flesh, and for a moment it seemed as if pale, sorcerous flames were playing about her fingers. "Take my hand," she said again, "and let me save your sister." (ADWD, Jon VI)

The vision keeps coming up and dictates some of Jon's decisions. Jeyne Poole (Sansa's friend) was forced to marry Ramsay in the guise of being Arya, she escapes, and people expect her to reunite with Jon and be the girl in grey (escaping a marriage, she was pretending to be his sister). Others point to Alys Karstark who runs to Jon to escape a marriage. The problem is, Mel doesn't know who it is, she only knows sister. People pick Jeyne because of the Arya connection, but neither she nor Alys are Jon's sister. And Jon has another sister, Sansa.

I would argue the reason that the girl in grey is Sansa (ie Sansa will flee North to escape LF's plots and reunite with Jon before Winterfell is taken/she is in a position of power), is if you read Jon's passage about the girl in grey, Jon being dead is written all over it. His white breath, the reference to him as a stranger, Jon telling himself he isn't a wolf...you see, here is the major spoiler...

Jon is assassinated at the end of TWOW.

Now, he may not actually be dead-dead, some of us have said he might be in a coma like Bran, but a) we believe he warged into Ghost (I am not a wolf--he will need to come back to himself, not lose himself in Ghost), b) the stranger = Jon is dead, c) the white breath = his body being cold cuz he's dead etc. The other side of this is, the way Jon sees Mel and remembers a different redhead can be viewed as foreshadowing for recently undead Jon seeing a redhead and mistaking her for Ygritte. The description of Mel's words like a song made people think of Sansa (it's been speculated Sansa's singing will help Jon remember things post rez/help him return to himself), and Ghost's strangely positive reaction to Mel may foreshadow how he reacts to Sansa as a familiar person. So, when I read that passage, it sounded to me like Sansa and Jon will be reuniting shortly after his rez, or even perhaps before his rez, so yes, I imagine that happens at the Wall.

Way back in 2013, a famous Jonsa essay predicted that Jon and Sansa would be reunited first of all the Starks, and then in 2016 that happened on the show which spurred a lot more discussion in the Jonsa fandom about Sansa being the girl in grey in the books as well.

I'll link some additional posts with various thoughts on how it might go.

Jon as the Stranger, Sansa as a silent sister. Pertinent quotes:

Then one morning she spied three women in the cowled grey robes of the silent sisters loading a corpse into their wagon. (ACOK, Arya VII) The women in grey bowed their heads. The silent sisters do not speak to the living, Catelyn remembered dully, but some say they can talk to the dead. (ACOK, Catelyn V) Grey was the color of the silent sisters, the handmaidens of the Stranger. (AFFC, Brienne VIII) When we find the Imp, we will find the Lady Sansa too. She is not dead . . . but before I am done with her, I promise you, she will be singing to the Stranger, begging for his kiss." (AFFC, Cersei IV)

@loveroflemons wrote a post in 2017 talking about Mel's prophecy and the map of the North to explain why Sansa is the Girl in Grey here. @une-nuit-pour-se-souvenir has a post explaining that Sansa is Ned's narrative heir and her path North will follow his here, and some general ideas for her TWOW story here.

@istumpysk talks about The Girl in Grey foreshadowing here. @aegor-bamfsteel tried to give us a time table here, @redteabaron has talked about the possibility that Sansa will be hunted by Ramsay for some Red Riding Hood parallels here, That and Sansa meeting Ghost while Jon is still out of it is discussed here as well. And this post talks about Jon saving Sansa from Ramsay while warged into Ghost using some king’s prize/thief quotes. I also found a Tolkien poem (Martin is a massive fan) that has Girl in Grey vibes here (not proof, just fun).

Anyway, it's a very popular Jonsa theory, for many of us, a given at this point. For a different ask i scrolled some BNF blogs and they mocked it a lot, called us delusional because they can point to the other girls as fulfilling the prophecy, but to me, that prophecy takes up too much space for it to disappear without a real payoff. It makes sense to me that Martin would use that vision to prep us for Sansa arriving in the North.

Let me know what you think after you read ADWD!

[lavalais76]

I found this on Reddit, and thought it to be an excellent read. I’m quiet sure most of you won’t believe some of the things said here, but it really has one thinking….

WoW RyanBarns13,

I think it's been a really thorough discussion. I just wondered where do you get your ideas from?

RyanBarnes13

OP•2yrs ago

Rhaegar and Lyanna never fit Jon’s story of Winterfell and being a Stark. And Ned and Ashara never fit cause he could just tell everyone. Honestly it’s from the The welcoming feast. When Jon said Sansa was “radiant”. Who says that about his sister? And they never had a parting scene from winterfell, but the more you dig into the more you realize they are the story of the North. And the 1993 letter or whenever it was had Arya Jon Tyrion love triangle. But every link and foreshadowing points to Sansa. Then Martin hides clues behind words. But the only combo that would work for that is Rhaegar or another Stark. Ned can’t be the father. Here’s two, Tyrion described Septa Lemore as handsome.... sounds like she is ok looking. We use it to describe men only nowadays. But look for synonyms for handsome describing a woman and it’s the opposite of what we think. Here’s some,

Handsome synonyms for women aesthetic (also esthetic), attractive, beauteous, beautiful, bonny (also bonnie) [chiefly British], comely, cute, drop-dead, fair, fetching, good, good-looking, goodly, gorgeous, knockout, likely, lovely, lovesome, pretty, ravishing, seemly, sightly, stunning, taking, well-favored.

The two main women described as like that is Ashara and Cercei from the Roberts rebellion. So why hide the eye color from us? Who else has purple eyes? Not much of anyone. But he gives us every clue but the eyes.

The other one is honey colored hair. That is one of the biggest tricks in the books. It’s whenever you see those words you should think like admiral ackbar. “It’s a trap”, basically honey ranges from blonde color to reddish brown. The bear and the maiden fair? You would think dany and Jorah. He is a Mormont bear, she is the maiden fair with honey in her hair. But it’s actually Jon with the bear symbols.

He is adopted by Mormont through the giving of Longclaw, basically replacing Jorah as his son, he is being trained as the old bears heir as lord commander, the white bear skins in numerous chapters of Jon’s. Who is his maiden fair with honey in her hair? The one maiden with reddish-brown hair who keeps calling for a knight to save her, but she gets a bear. It’s played over and over in her scenes. Sansa. Many people hate realizing hearing it, but Jon’s story is built around Sansa and her his.

The proof where Jon flat out says he loves her. Most people have missed it, but Arya is little sister since the very first of the book. Sister always means Sansa. Martin never deviates from that. And he hides the truth many a time by getting people to read about Jon’s sister and thinking Arya instead of Sansa. But go reread the first few chapters, it’s always sister, little sister. Now the proof,

Do not despair Lord Snow […] Your sister is not lost to you.”

“I have no sister.” The words were knives. What do you know of my heart, priestess? What do you know of my sister?

Melisandre seemed amused. “What is her name, this little sister that you do not have?”

“Arya.” His voice was hoarse. “My half-sister, truly…”

“… for you are bastard born. I had not forgotten. I have seen your sister in my fires, fleeing from this marriage they have made for her. Coming here, to you. A girl in grey on a dying horse, I have seen it plain as day. It has not happened yet, but it will.��� -Jon, A Dance with Dragons

She is talking about Arya, he is thinking Sansa and his heart, his SISTER. Then she is amused as she realizes, what’s the LITTLE SISTERS name? Oh shit Jon thinks silently, Arya. Oops of course Jon.

What I am getting to with all this is Jon’s story is the north. Winterfell is his end game. It’s what he dreams about. You can only make the story work if you accept the character arcs as written. He is not the PTWP, or all that. He is Lord of Winterfell, King of Winter. Everyone wants him to be king of 7 kingdoms, ride dragons, that’s Aegons, Danys, stories. His queen is set up to Sansa. Most people reject that, but go back and read just their chapters, they parallel in trials, dreams, everything. End game is winterfell and kids named Robb, Bran, Arya, Rickon. Dany is the Rhaenys character, Aegon is Aegon character, Val is the Visenya character, but with a spear instead of a sword.

Martin used fairy tails in the story, Beauty and the Beast, the pig boy. Sandor, Tyrion false Beasts. Jon is the beast. If you notice his wounds correlate to Sansa’s suitors. Sandor is burned, Jon is burned. Willas Tyrell (think I remember his name right) is lame in one leg, Jon gets shot by arrows and limps, tyrion and Sandor get scarred faces, Jon’s whole side of his face is scarred by the eagle.

The pig boy gets the princess stories, Jon is the pig keeper. Sam is the piggy, Ser Piggy even, Dolorious Edd tells Sam he’s thinking of roasting Sam. The prologue of one of the books has a Nights Watch character trying to escape but is thwarted by snow and Jon and his pig taking his spot with maester Aemon.

As for putting it all together, look at the Middle Ages. It’s all there. But everyone forgets it’s written from a certain point of view. Obiwan kenobi, talking to Luke about Vader killing his dad, everything I told you was true. From a certain point of view. All the stories of Jon’s mother are true, when you look at it from the characters points of view, Wylla, Ashara, fisherman’s daughter, you just have to fit them into the slots.

Sorry I’m rambling

[jackoshadows]

Listening to AFfC and it's stands out how characters like Jon, Arya and Bran are considered unimportant or thought of as dead and gone and simply underestimated in a wider sense by the houses and characters of the South.

The Lannisters think Arya, Bran and Rickon dead and most don't think Jon Snow important as he's a bastard Lord Commander. Jaime does not even mention Jon by name and only advises the Blackfish that he can go to the Wall where Ned's bastard is LC.

Tyrion seems to have forgotten about his bff at the Wall and decides to not go there because of the likes of Slynt and Thorne. The Tyrells/Greyjoys/Martells make no mention of him or the other Starks.

Brienne also never mentions Jon by name - just refers to him once as the bastard half brother at the Wall where Sansa could have gone to and then abandons that prospect as the Wall is too far off and a 'bleak and bitter place'.

Jaime thinks that Arya is dead and sends Brienne off to get Sansa. Brienne is not actively looking for Arya. Even the almost omniscient Littlefinger has no idea that Arya, Bran and Rickon are alive and can throw a spanner in the works - how would he? Or that Robb has a decree naming Jon Snow KITN and Lord of Winterfell - unless one of the signatories and witnesses blabbed about the decree I don't see how LF can know about this.

This is interesting considering Jon Snow is actively helping Stannis against Lannister allies in the North and even rallies an army to go attack the Boltons. Surprisingly, it's only Cersei who considers Jon Snow a legitimate threat - kudos to her!

Jon Snow only comes to Cersei's attention because of Stannis at the Wall, however, she does consider him a threat as Ned Stark's son. Of course, she then hatches a wild plan at Qyburn's instigation to send some men all the way to the Wall to assassinate Lord Snow. Which, considering what does end up happening to Jon, may not have been such a bad plan after all lol.

It's also a demonstration of Cersei's narrow focus on the Starks where she takes the threat of Jon Snow seriously, while shrugging off the threat from the East - Dany and her dragons.

“One last thing, Your Grace,” said Aurane Waters, in an apologetic tone. “I hesitate to take up the council’s time with trifles, but there has been some queer talk heard along the docks of late. Sailors from the east. They speak of dragons .. .” “. . . and manticores, no doubt, and bearded snarks?” Cersei chuckled. “Come back to me when you hear talk of dwarfs, my lord.” She stood, to signal that the meeting was at an end. - Cersei, AFfC.

Considering that Tyrion will be joining up with Daenerys, Cersei is in for a shock and not too pleased when next she hears of the dragons...

One of the things I am looking forward to reading in the next couple of books if it ever comes out is the reactions from the characters down south to a KITN Jon Snow, or KITN Rickon Stark and Arya Stark at the head of a wolf army and Daenerys landing on Westeros with her dragons. Bran's arc of manipulating time and events or understanding the threat of the Others is going to remain secretive/unknown for some time yet is what I am guessing.

[thelustybraavosimaid]

one of the craziest aspects of the line: what do you know of my heart. it's seeing jon being the one who jumps to conclusions. mel just says that the heart is important n that arya is not lost to him. but, she never says that she saw through his heart. ofc, she noticed something. however, he is the only one reveling himself lol. her use of heart is more in a general sense, she is trying to comfort his anxious heart. while he goes for something specific, establishing arya as his heart

"At evenfall, as the sun sets and we face the gathering night, you shall take your vows. From that moment, you will be a Sworn Brother of the Night's Watch. Your crimes will be washed away, your debts forgiven. So too you must wash away your former loyalties, put aside your grudges, forget old wrongs and old loves alike. Here you begin anew. (Jon VI, AGoT)

--

Men came to the Wall from all of the Seven Kingdoms, and old loves and loyalties were not easily forgotten, no matter how many oaths a man swore...as Jon himself had good reason to know.  (Jon I, ACoK)

I think about these sometimes. A few times Jon had been tested in this way, his inability to forget those he loved, but doesn't this come to a head in the latter half of his ADwD, amidst juggling the free folk, the Night's Watch, the food crisis, etc? How his loyalty to Arya propels him to change the plan?

Regarding what you said, I like to make a comparison in this way:

"Is that the way of it, Jon Snow?" asked Mance Rayder, mildly. "Her and you?"

It was easy to lose your way beyond the Wall. Jon did not know that he could tell honor from shame anymore, or right from wrong. Father forgive me. "Yes," he said. Mance nodded. "Good. You'll go with Jarl and Styr on the morrow, then. Both of you. Far be it from me to separate two hearts that beat as one." (Jon II, ASoS)

Jon later thinks:

Two hearts that beat as one. Mance Rayder's mocking words rang bitter in his head. Jon had seldom felt so confused. (Jon III, ASoS)

While I am certainly not downplaying Ygritte's importance to Jon, I have always found it strange that he thinks of Mance's words as mocking when in (technically) the next book he wholeheartedly, without question, refers to Arya as his heart.

(George also knew what he was doing when 'dark heart' Arya was called Jon's heart, who refers to his own heart as black?!)

[countrymusiclover]

41 - No Longer A Bastard

Part 42

The Lion Knight and Dragon Princess

Tags- just send an ask to be added @cdragons @kmc1989 @starkleila @noirrose21-blog @lover-of-books-and-tea

“No! Father, please don't do this.” I screamed thrashing underneath his strong arms when he had me smashed up against the stone wall smelling of flames meaning he must have executed another Hand who he believed was against him. 

My father Aerys II had his hands on either side of my head trapping me in between the wall and his body before he began tearing parts of my dress. “You’re mother can’t be trusted anymore.  And I need another heir that you will give to me.” 

“But I’m your daughter.” I gulped trying to push him away with my hands against the front of his chest when he began shifting his clothing downward until he was yanked backwards by smaller hands. 

“Get your hands off of her, Aerys!” 

I gasped seeing my mother holding him back away from me as best as she could since he was a lot stronger than she was. “Mother!” 

“Jaime, get her out of here now.” She didn’t speak to me and rather called to the golden knight that had come running down the hall with her.  He had been escorting her to a new room when he was paranoid that she’d hurt me so we were on the opposite sides of our own home. 

Jaime moved around where she stood gently taking a hold of my forearm, beginning to lead me away from them till I attempted to get away from him. “Mother! Wait, let go of me.  Urgh! We can’t just leave her - Jaime, help her.” 

“Vaella, I can’t.  She commanded that I look after you.  I - I can’t use my sword against my sworn King.” Jaime tightened his grip, spinning me back so his hands were holding me by my shoulders. 

I heard my father shout at her before she whimpered, getting dragged into the available chamber room. “Aerys!” 

“But he’s - he’s going to hurt her.  You’ve seen the bruising.” I felt tears falling down my face, hating to see my mother be treated by here husband that way and it made it even worse that he was also her brother who was treating her so harshly. 

Jaime touched the side of my face and I leaned into his palm. “I’m so sorry, princess.  But it’s her way of protecting you.” He noticed that the tears got heavier so he wrapped his arms around my waist bringing me against his embrace. 

“If I ever have kids I’ll never force them to marry their own siblings.  It leads to too much cruelty.” Burying my face into his armored chest holding onto him as closely as possible just heavy sobbing. 

Standing on the edge of the snowy mountain near Winterfell with my horse standing off to the side while I heard the sound of the dragons flying towards our direction.  My sister looked down at me while she dove down and landed her dragon a few steps away from me.  She slowly slides down one of her dragon's wings walking over to me. “You coming up here to fly one of my dragons, sister?” 

“Not exactly.  I’m good with just having one dragon to ride for my entire life.  But I do have something to talk with you about though.” I shake my head no with the wind blowing my white cloak around behind me. 

Daenerys clasped her hands together in front of her chest. “What do you want to talk about, Vaella?” 

“Now that we both know about who Jon Snow really is I was thinking he shouldn’t have to have a bastard title anymore.  He deserves to be part of our Targaryen family and show the world that the three of us are nothing like our father Aerys II Targaryen was.  Regardless of us coming from the bloodline of who we all called The Mad King.” 

She smiled, completely agreeing with my idea. “I think that’s a brilliant idea, sister.” 

“I’ll tell Tyrion and Missandi to gather everyone.  Sansa as well.  Then we also need to discuss the plan to remove Cersei from the throne.” I reminded her even though I knew she hadn’t forgotten about the original goal that had brought us together now that they army of the dead was gone forever. 

Once all the lords loyal to me, Jon, Sansa and my sister Daenerys began gathering into the main throne room with me standing beside my sister in the center of the room at the front of the crowd.  Jaime was standing off to the side with our four children huddled behind him seeing Jon move up to us. “Your graces, what is going on here?” 

“We have thought about it and we think it’s time you let the world know who you really are.  You are of our blood, the blood of the dragon.” Daenerys declared, causing everyone in the room who didn’t already know to gasp in utter shock. 

Lord Glover shifting his gaze directly at me. “He’s Ned Stark’s bastard, not a Targaryen one.” 

“His real father was our brother Rhaegar Targaryen and his mother was the late Lyanna Stark.  The Dragon Prince and the North She-Wolf were his parents.  And I know what you all are thinking about the rumors of Rhaegar kidnapping her except that wasn’t the truth.  He truly loved her and our brother would have given up his crown for her.” I slowly walked to the center of the room removing my sword and aiming it at Jon Snow but everyone could see in my eyes that I had no desire to hurt him.  “You named him the King in the North because you believed in him.  He united us all to face the White Walkers and Night King so this shouldn’t change how you view him now.  He is still the man you have sworn your sword to!” 

Daenerys clasped her hands together eyeing me for a second. “My sister knows quite a lot more about your values since she received a formal education of the noble houses.  But she speaks about what is the right path for us as the rulers of the Seven Kingdoms.   So Jon Snow will you kneel before your Queen and let me make you a true born lord?”

“I am truly honored your graces, but I don’t want to be a Targaryen.” Jon looked between me and my younger sister. 

Daenerys raised a brow not offended but curious. “I take no offense to your words.  But can you inform me why you don’t wish to be named a Targaryen?” 

“I wasn’t raised as one.  I was raised as a Stark.  The northern ways of life are all I’ve known and for that I wish to have the Stark name.” Jon responded resting one hand on the handle of his sword. 

“Then kneel before me, Jon.  Provide me with your sword if you please.” I slid my sword back into my holder holding out my hand for him.  He placed his blade into mine, lowering himself down on a knee directly in front of me.   Slowly moving his sword over one shoulder then the other before I declared his name change to everyone.  “All hail his lordship Jon of House Stark, first of his name, Warden of the North and claimed King in the North.  Rise, lord Stark.” 

“All hail Jon of House Stark!” Daenerys declared, causing everyone in the room to join in behind her. 

“All hail Jon of House Stark!”

Jon rose up from the stone floor bowing his head at me placing his sword back onto his hip. “Vaella, you trusted me with this great dagger.  But it doesn’t belong to me.  It belongs to the true ruler of the Seven Kingdoms who brought dragons back to our lands…it belongs to you Dany.” He brushed past me till he was standing before her, holding Aegon the Conqueror's dagger out for her to take. 

“The prophecy has been passed down from King to heir for so long and none of them have figured out who it rightfully belonged to, who would figure out the Conqueror's dream of the great winter that would destroy the world of men.” Taking my sister’s hands in mine she gave me a confused look. 

She shakes her head. “I’m afraid I don’t understand, Vaella.” 

“You are the one the dagger belongs to.  You were a Targaryen who walked into a fire with three stones and walked out unharmed with three baby dragons.  You have fought the greatest enemy of ice , the Night King and brought them against the greatest power of fire, your dragons.  A song of Ice and Fire, it is not the Prince that was Promised.  Yet the Princess that was Promised and it is you Daenerys Targaryen.” 

Daenerys takes the dagger from Jon’s hand turning it over and back in her hand simply staring at it for a few minutes.  She locked her gaze with mine intensely holding my hand in her other one. “I was born to rule the Seven Kingdoms and I will, but not alone.  You shall forever be known as the Queen who found the houses of Old Valyria and for that we shall rule side by side.” 

Looking over my shoulder at my husband he sent me a proud grin crossing the room.  Removing my hand from my sister’s he revealed the gray crown from behind his back. “What is a Queen without a crown?  My Queen, Vaella.” He gently sat the crown on my head with a grin still plastered across his face. 

“We fight for our Queens!” Jon drew out his sword, raising it up in the air. 

Daenerys raised the dagger up in the air. “We will remove Cersei Lannister and break the wheel of power that comes with her!” 

“We will take the Iron Throne without bloodshed!” I drew my sword away from my hip and up into the air seeing everyone else who had a blade followed our actions and declared the words Queens of the Seven Kingdoms. 

[thewindsofwolves]

Jon Snow & Sansa Stark Book Parallels & Mentions 26/∞ : When all hope seems lost during a battle, they swallow their own fear to give courage to their companions

"Oh, gods," an old woman wailed. "We're lost, the battle's lost, she's running." Several children were crying. They can smell the fear. Sansa found herself alone on the dais. Should she stay here, or run after the queen and plead for her life?She never knew why she got to her feet, but she did. "Don't be afraid," she told them loudly. "The queen has raised the drawbridge. This is the safest place in the city. There's thick walls, the moat, the spikes . . ." "What's happened?" demanded a woman she knew slightly, the wife of a lesser lordling. "What did Osney tell her? Is the king hurt, has the city fallen?" "Tell us," someone else shouted. One woman asked about her father, another her son.Sansa raised her hands for quiet. "Joffrey's come back to the castle. He's not hurt. They're still fighting, that's all I know, they're fighting bravely. The queen will be back soon." The last was a lie, but she had to soothe them. A Clash Of Kings, Sansa VII

He could feel the despair all around him. "There must be a hundred thousand," Satin wailed. "How can we stop so many?" "The Wall will stop them," Jon heard himself say. He turned and said it again, louder. "The Wall will stop them. The Wall defends itself." Hollow words, but he needed to say them, almost as much as his brothers needed to hear them. "Mance wants to unman us with his numbers. Does he think we're stupid?" He was shouting now, his leg forgotten, and every man was listening. "The chariots, the horsemen, all those fools on foot . . . what are they going to do to us up here? Any of you ever see a mammoth climb a wall?" He laughed, and Pyp and Owen and half a dozen more laughed with him. "They're nothing, they're less use than our straw brothers here, they can't reach us, they can't hurt us, and they don't frighten us, do they?" "NO!" Grenn shouted. "They're down there and we're up here," Jon said, "and so long as we hold the gate they cannot pass. They cannot pass!" A Storm of Swords, Jon VIII

[jonsnowunemploymentera]

Welp, I’m going to talk about Robb’s Will…

I’ve been seeing some strange commentary on Robb’s Will lately that I found a little annoying and wanted to address. People seem to think that the will is invalid or irrelevant for a slew of reasons. I’ve seen people say that the will is automatically moot because it was made with the assumption that Bran and Rickon were dead, but since they are alive then it’s contents are invalid and can be ignored. Others have also agued that Jon cannot possibly be the named heir since he is not a Tully, so the Riverlords would be unlikely to follow him. This last point has given rise to the rather nonsensical theory that Lady Catelyn was named heir instead of Jon.

I don’t particularly understand or agree with these opinions. While there are several issues with the will, I don’t think it’s fair to completely write off its validity. It’s true that Bran’s and Rickon’s survival complicates matters, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that Jon is out of the picture in regards to Winterfell’s succession. The last part about Catelyn can simply be disproven since it’s already been confirmed (through TWOIAF app and the wiki) that Jon was the named heir.

The thing is, I see Robb’s will acting on multiple fronts all of which are working in tandem toward a larger goal. The will:

Legitimizes Jon as a Stark

Names him heir to all of Robb’s lands and titles

Presumably makes allowances for Jon to be freed from his vows, and

Places Jon’s claim over Sansa’s (most probably moves her to the end of the line)

Given all these points, I’m going to try and parse through the text in this post to explain why I think that Robb’s Will can be regarded as a valid document and why Jon is still Robb’s heir.

Disclaimer: I understand that we do not know of the will’s actual contents. The wording Robb used matters a lot and can be subject to interpretation - depending on which side of the aisle the Northern lords will choose to fall under. I am not arguing that Jon will be made King solely based on the Will either, we’ll have to wait for the next two books to see how the situation develops. I will also admit that my knowledge of medieval succession is not extensive. Thus, I’ll try to interpret this purely on the basis of what is provided in the text itself - with some added commentary from George R.R. Martin where necessary.

I. Jon’s Legitimization

So let’s start with what I consider to be the will’s first act, which is Robb’s decision to legitimize Jon. This is probably the most undervalued and the most important part of the document since it’s the very basis of Jon’s legal claim to Winterfell. This is because Jon cannot be made heir before he is legitimized (presumably).

The main point with Jon’s legitimization is that Robb acknowledges him as the last of his brothers. Sansa is still alive but she is currently married to Tyrion Lannister. This does not please Robb as the Lannisters would be able to claim Winterfell through her; and Lady Catelyn agrees that this scenario is quite unpleasant. Robb also knows that Bran and Rickon are dead, as they were allegedly killed by Theon Greyjoy. So, Robb wants to name Jon heir since he is the last living son of Eddard Stark. But first, he must legitimize him in order to give him a legal claim.

“Mother.” There was a sharpness in Robb’s tone. “You forget. My father had four sons.”

She had not forgotten; she had not wanted to look at it, yet there it was. “A Snow is not a Stark.”

“Jon’s more a Stark than some lordlings from the Vale who have never so much as set eyes on Winterfell.”

[…]

He is set on this. Catelyn knew how stubborn her son could be. “A bastard cannot inherit.”

“Not unless he’s legitimized by a royal decree,” said Robb. “There is more precedent for that than for releasing a Sworn Brother from his oath.”

- Catelyn V, ASOS

Previously, Catelyn had suggested some distant cousin in the Vale as a potential heir over Sansa, but Robb shuts it down because they would not be familiar with Winterfell. Jon is though, and Robb further recognizes that Ned Stark had four sons - three trueborn, one a bastard. Robb means to reverse the issue of Jon’s illegitimate birth through legitimization and cites that there is enough precedent to do this.

Catelyn, for her part, does not challenge the legality of this. Instead, she later resorts to emotional pleas - the Blackfyre rebellions, Sansa’s and Arya’s rights - to try and get Robb to reconsider, but she is unsuccessful because Robb is set on the idea. Even when she tries to make her case as a mother supporting her son, it doesn’t work:

“I cannot,” she said. “In all else, Robb. In everything. But not in this … this folly. Do not ask it.”

“I don’t have to. I’m the king.” Robb turned and walked off, Grey Wind bounding down from the tomb and loping after him.

- Catelyn V, ASOS

Robb throws his status as king in Catelyn’s face, further cementing that he has the will and the power to legitimize Jon; and Catelyn once again does not and cannot challenge him. So this can be regarded as a legally sound act.

Robb wasn’t the only one who thought that he could use his power as king to legitimize Jon. Stannis also tried to act on his power as King of the Seven Kingdoms in order to install Jon as a much needed northern ally:

“I am the only true king in Westeros, north or south. And you are Ned Stark’s bastard.” Stannis studied him with those dark blue eyes. “Tywin Lannister has named Roose Bolton his Warden of the North, to reward him for betraying your brother. The ironmen are fighting amongst themselves since Balon Greyjoy’s death, yet they still hold Moat Cailin, Deepwood Motte, Torrhen’s Square, and most of the Stony Shore. Your father’s lands are bleeding, and I have neither the strength nor the time to stanch the wounds. What is needed is a Lord of Winterfell. A loyal Lord of Winterfell.”

[…]

He would make me Lord of Winterfell. The wind was gusting, and Jon felt so light-headed he was half afraid it would blow him off the Wall. “Your Grace,” he said, “you forget. I am a Snow, not a Stark.”

“It’s you who are forgetting,” King Stannis replied.

Melisandre put a warm hand on Jon’s arm. “A king can remove the taint of bastardy with a stroke, Lord Snow.”

- Jon XI, ASOS

The context here is a bit different since Stannis offering Jon the position of Lord of Winterfell and not king. However, legitimizing Jon is still something Stannis has to do in order to install Jon as Lord of Winterfell. Even further, I would think that it’s the first thing he ought to do since this is what would give Jon the legal right to hold this position. Stannis’ offer here, much like Robb’s Will, would act on multiple fronts: first Jon has to be legitimized, then he has to be made Lord of Winterfell. So legimization presumably stands on its own unless Stannis specifically states that Jon is only legitimate insofar as he serves as Winterfell’s lord. Though I’m not sure how this could even be worked into the royal decree or how necessary it would be.

We also have more evidence for a bastard being legitimized and made heir with Ramsay Bolton - this happened due to the lack of any other successors.

When asked about the issue of Robb’s Will, GRRM stressed that only a king has the power to legitimize a bastard.

As to what is and is not moot... the key point is, only a =king= can legitimize a bastard......

- SSM, 08/20/2000

It’s important to note the context for this SSM, as the person asking this question was talking about the validity of Jon rejecting Stannis’ offer given Robb’s Will. Still, the point is that a king can legitimize a bastard and, well, Robb was the King in the North.

So, Jon is legitimate. Full stop. Even if Bran and Rickon are revealed to still be alive, this part cannot be changed. In fact, part of Catelyn’s argument is that the legitimization of a bastard cannot be undone.

“[…] If you make Jon legitimate, there is no way to turn him bastard again.”

- Catelyn V, ASOS

So there you have it. And because Jon is legitimate, he now has a legal claim to Winterfell.

We don’t know the specifics of where legitimized bastards are placed in the line of succession, and I’m sure that Martin will want to explore those tensions should there be a Stark succession crisis. However, as things stand, Jon is the oldest legitimate surviving son of Eddard Stark. His age over his siblings’ also gives him an advantage per the normal rules of succession. That is unless the will was written in such a way that Jon’s legitimization depends entirely on Bran and Rickon being dead, but I see no logical reason why that would be the case. At this point, Robb was very sure that his two younger brothers were dead and so Jon’s legitimization would not be impacted; and it’s likely that they would not be mentioned anyway. So, until the next two books state otherwise, I consider Jon’s legitimization to be an act that stands on its own regardless of his siblings’ status.

Now, there is obviously an issue with this first clause because we can assume that Robb legitimized Jon as the son of Eddard Stark. As we know, Jon is not Ned’s natural born son. He is Lyanna’s. So we ask, can the will still be valid if this one singular point is false? I would argue, yes!

“Mother.” There was a sharpness in Robb’s tone. “You forget. My father had four sons.”

- Catelyn V, ASOS

Ned may not have sired Jon, but he still took him in and claimed him as his son. Bastard or not, in the eyes of the North, Jon is Ned’s son. This recognition is the sole reason for Jon having a bastard’s surname, unlike unrecognized bastards like Gendry. And Jon being so publicly recognized as Ned’s bastard is a big deal, at least to Catelyn.

Many men fathered bastards. Catelyn had grown up with that knowledge. It came as no surprise to her, in the first year of her marriage, to learn that Ned had fathered a child on some girl chance met on campaign. He had a man’s needs, after all, and they had spent that year apart, Ned off at war in the south while she remained safe in her father’s castle at Riverrun. Her thoughts were more of Robb, the infant at her breast, than of the husband she scarcely knew. He was welcome to whatever solace he might find between battles. And if his seed quickened, she expected he would see to the child’s needs.

He did more than that. The Starks were not like other men. Ned brought his bastard home with him, and called him “son” for all the north to see. When the wars were over at last, and Catelyn rode to Winterfell, Jon and his wet nurse had already taken up residence.

- Catelyn II, AGOT

It seems that the expectation was that Ned would provide for the child and leave it at that. But Ned went beyond that and even installed Jon in Winterfell before Catelyn and Robb even got there. As Catelyn laments, Ned took Jon in “and called him “son” for all the North to see”.

Not only did Ned claim Jon and choose to raise him along his true born siblings in Winterfell, Jon also grew up to look like Ned; something that could not be said for any of Catelyn’s own sons.

Jon was never out of sight, and as he grew, he looked more like Ned than any of the trueborn sons she bore him. Somehow that made it worse.

- Catelyn II, AGOT

It’s important that Jon looks so much like Ned in universe. His identity as a Stark cannot be challenged; and we see this when he meets people, e.g., Craster. Because Jon looks so much like Ned, his identity as Ned’s son is ironclad.

The North, in general, is very aware of Jon’s status as Ned Stark’s son.

Alys knelt before him, clutching the black cloak. “You are my only hope, Lord Snow. In your father’s name, I beg you. Protect me.”

- Jon IX, ADWD

And Jon himself is not afraid to remind the Northern lords of this when necessary.

“[…] I may seem a green boy in your eyes, Lord Norrey, but I am still a son of Eddard Stark.”

- Jon XI, ADWD

And that’s not all. You see, everyone knows about Ned Stark’s bastard son.

“You were never the boy you were,” Robert grumbled. “More’s the pity. And yet there was that one time … what was her name, that common girl of yours? Becca? No, she was one of mine, gods love her, black hair and these sweet big eyes, you could drown in them. Yours was … Aleena? No. You told me once. Was it Merryl? You know the one I mean, your bastard’s mother?”

- Eddard II, AGOT

“Snow, the boy is called,” Pycelle said unhelpfully.

“I glimpsed him once at Winterfell,” the queen said, “though the Starks did their best to hide him. He looks very like his father.”

- Cersei IV, AFFC

“I am Tyrion Lannister.”

“I know,” Jon said. He rose. Standing, he was taller than the dwarf. It made him feel strange.

“You’re Ned Stark’s bastard, aren’t you?”

- Jon I, AGOT

The singer rose to his feet. “I’m Mance Rayder,” he said as he put aside the lute. “And you are Ned Stark’s bastard, the Snow of Winterfell.”

- Jon I, ASOS

“My lady?” Ned said at last. “You have a baseborn brother … Jon Snow?”

- Arya VIII, ASOS

“I will permit you to take the black. Ned Stark’s bastard is the Lord Commander on the Wall.”

- Jaime VI, AFFC

Myranda gave a shrewed little smile. "Yes she was the very soul of wisdom, that good lady. [...] There's a new High Septon, did you know?. Oh, and the Night's watch has a boy commander, some bastard son of Eddard Stark's."
"Jon Snow?" she blurted out, surprised.
"Snow? Yes it would be Snow, I suppose"

- Alayne II, AFFC

“Ned Stark was here?”

“At the dawn of Robert’s Rebellion. The Mad King had sent to the Eyrie for Stark’s head, but Jon Arryn sent him back defiance. Gulltown stayed loyal to the throne, though. To get home and call his banners, Stark had to cross the mountains to the Fingers and find a fisherman to carry him across the Bite. A storm caught them on the way. The fisherman drowned, but his daughter got Stark to the Sisters before the boat went down. They say he left her with a bag of silver and a bastard in her belly. Jon Snow, she named him, after Arryn.

- Davos I, ADWD

As far as Westeros and the North know, Jon is Ned Stark’s son because he was claimed as such. So, should Jon’s true parentage be revealed, a crafty supporter may argue that since Ned claimed Jon as his own, raised him in Winterfell, and gave him a lordling’s education, then the will could be taken as a form of legal adoption. Of course, Robb had no idea of Jon’s true parentage but given that he had no other options at the time, I believe his decision would still have been the same if he knew.

The wording may once again make or break Jon’s case. If the will specifically states that Jon is legitimized as a true born son, born of Ned’s body, then there’s very few loopholes that can be exploited. However, if the will’s language is vague enough, then Jon can still be regarded as the oldest surviving Stark child.

It also depends on Howland Reed’s position since he is perhaps the only person who knows that King Robb Stark’s heir is Prince Rhaegar Targaryen’s last surviving son. We will have to wait for the rest of the series to see how Reed navigates this issue, but it is by design that he is seemingly the nexus of all this information regarding Jon Snow. Robb’s envoys were specifically sent to Reed, so we can safely assume that he has a part to play in the upcoming novels.

II: Jon as Robb’s Heir

The minute Jon became legitimate, he gained a legal claim to Winterfell. Again, we do not know where legitimized bastards fall in the line of succession but I will assume that their inheritance over any trueborn heirs would be contested unless stated otherwise.

This brings us to the next point, that Robb specifically designated Jon as his heir once he legitimized him. The wording in this part matters since there is the chance that this clause is conditional. Obviously, Jon became Robb’s heir in the event that Robb did not sire any sons of his own; and we know that Robb died without issue. There’s the question of whether Jon was named heir presumptive or heir apparent given that this will was to be acted on in the future; though it’s most probably the former option. All we know is that, per the will, Jon was set to inherit everything once Robb died without heirs of his own.

But we know that Robb’s siblings are still alive and they would have inherited too so the question becomes, how does Jon fit in with his siblings?

Arya is missing and believed to be dead so it’s safe to assume that Robb makes no allowances for her in the will.

“[…] No one has seen or heard of Arya since they cut Father’s head off. Why do you lie to yourself? Arya’s gone, the same as Bran and Rickon […]”

- Catelyn V, ASOS

Arya may very well turn up alive with a giant wolf pack at her back, which would undoubtedly prove her identity as a Stark, but again we are not sure if she could take precedence over Jon now that he’s the eldest legitimate son of the previous, previous Lord of Winterfell.

Sansa has a claim but that can be challenged since this entire situation arose out of Robb wanting to prevent the Lannisters from claiming Winterfell and the North through her or her potential sons by Tyrion. As such, the will either bumps her down the line of succession or perhaps provides some stipulations that prevent her from inheriting so long as she remains wedded to Tyrion Lannister. We do not know the exact wording. Either way, we can assume that Jon is placed above her.

“A king must have an heir. If I should die in my next battle, the kingdom must not die with me. By law Sansa is next in line of succession, so Winterfell and the north would pass to her.” His mouth tightened. “To her, and her lord husband. Tyrion Lannister. I cannot allow that. I will not allow that. That dwarf must never have the north.”

“No,” Catelyn agreed. “You must name another heir, until such time as Jeyne gives you a son.”

- Catelyn V, ASOS

Bran and Rickon, I think, are the main problem here. Bran is often regarded as Robb’s heir throughout the series and even holds the title Prince of Winterfell, which denotes this status. Rickon also holds this title as Bran’s heir. So some lords may ask, “how can Jon be Robb’s heir when the true born brothers are still living?” And, there are some Northern lords who do know of the boys’ survival, considering that Wyman Manderly has pledged to join King Stannis should Ser Davos bring him Rickon Stark. This is definitely a problem and they might need to work things out through means outside of this will’s framework - i.e., whatever the northern lords ultimately want because this part of the will is possibly very open to interpretation. Arguments will certainly be made over who is more fit to rule given age and experience; and both of these would work in Jon’s favor.

I would also imagine that the wording makes all the difference. Does Robb reference Bran’s and Rickon’s deaths? Or does he only allude to his own lack of a son? We simply don’t know but I would argue that even if Bran and Rickon were mentioned, Jon is still not discounted from inheriting Winterfell. This is because it goes back to the first point: Jon is now the oldest surviving legitimate son of Ned Stark.

Anyway, what we do know is that Robb mentions wanting Jon to succeed him if he dies without issue.

“Jon is the only brother that remains to me. Should I die without issue, I want him to succeed me as King in the North.”

- Catelyn V, ASOS

This point might be hotly contested because Robb thinks Jon is the only one of his brothers who still alive. Again, how the will is worded and interpreted will make all the difference. We just have to wait for the books to come out.

An anti-Jon argument that has arisen from some (specific) sections of the fandom is that Jon could not have been named Robb’s heir because he is not a Tully and thus cannot rule over the Riverlords. The alternative is that Catelyn was named heir instead of Jon so as to appease the Riverlords. Laughably, this is no solution at all and causes even more problems than it solves. I am not entirely sure what basis this theory stands on - though we know why it came about, the originator is notedly against Jon as evidenced by his more general commentary on the character.

Whether or not Jon is a Tully ultimately is not much of a hinderance. Jon would not be taking their castles; the Riverlords would still be in charge, albeit under a different king now. They might want someone with Tully blood to inherit and so they would be inclined to support Catelyn’s children, but the current lord of Riverrurn is a signee of the document. And I would assume that since the will is a legal decree, its contents are biding. And, there is no mention of any of the Riverlords who were present at the signing raising any objections to Robb’s decree as it was passed around. We also know that the Riverlords who signed the will are still alive, free or not, which is a point that George R.R Martin has been keen to stress.

Edmure and the Greatjon are prisoners, true... but you are forgetting the envoys that Robb sent to Howland Reed... Galbart Glover, Maege Mormont, Jason Mallister... they are all alive and free.

- SSM, 08/06/2000

Coupled with the confirmation on the WOIAF and the Wiki, Jon is Robb’s heir and a legal claimant to not just the King in the North title, but the King of the Trident one as well; of course, this is dependent on whether the Riverlords would want to rejoin the Northern kingdom down the line.

III: Jon and the Night’s Watch Vows

So we’ve come to the last point - that is the issue of Jon’s vows as a sworn brother of the Night’s Watch. The vows dictate that Jon cannot hold any lands and titles so long as he remains a black brother.

Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death. I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory. I shall live and die at my post.

- Jon VI, AGOT

As far as we know, these lifelong vows are taken very seriously and the very first chapter in the series even features a Night’s Watch deserter being executed.

So the main problem is: even if Jon is legitimized and named as Robb’s heir, he still cannot inherit due to his vows. And this problem is a big one. Well, it seems that Robb intended to make allowances for Jon to be relieved from his post:

“Jon is a brother of the Night’s Watch, sworn to take no wife and hold no lands. Those who take the black serve for life.”

“So do the knights of the Kingsguard. That did not stop the Lannisters from stripping the white cloaks from Ser Barristan Selmy and Ser Boros Blount when they had no more use for them. If I send the Watch a hundred men in Jon’s place, I’ll wager they find some way to release him from his vows.”

- Catelyn V, ASOS

The dismissal of Ser Barristan and Ser Boros from the Kingsguard - another lifelong sworn brotherhood - is taken as enough precedent for Jon being released from the Night’s Watch vows. This part is quite tricky, though, because it seems that the Watch has to be the one releasing Jon from his vows. We’re not exactly sure how much power Robb can wield over the Watch since it’s technically an independent institution; thus, Jon’s situation is different from Barristan’s and Boros’ since the Kingsguard answers to the crown.

However, there are still some loopholes that Robb seemingly wants to exploit. The Watch is not in its prime and it’s resources and manpower has dwindled considerably over the centuries. Robb seems to recognize that they desperately need men and so intends to work that to his favor. He argues that the trade of 100 men for one boy seems fair enough and may even be beneficial to the Watch.

Catelyn does not push back on his reasoning. She seems to implicitly agree that there is precedent for Jon to be freed from his vows. She instead brings up Jon’s bastardy, which has already been addressed in previous sections. And her later objections do not mention that the Watch may refuse to cooperate or that Robb has no power to do this. She instead tries to make emotional appeals to Robb - appeals that have nothing to do with the Watch. So while this act may be tricky, it’s reasonable to assume that it can be done through some work arounds.

And once again, Robb is not the only one who thinks that Jon can be released from his vows given the right authority. When Stannis offers him Winterfell, Jon mentions that he swore vows not to hold lands or father children. Yet Stannis does not seem to care about this as much as Jon does. Instead, Stannis completely bypasses this point and goes on a tangent about the conflict with the wildlings and the need for a united north under a lord who is sworn to him. In fact, he doesn’t address it at all.

“Yes,” he said, hesitantly, “kings have legitimized bastards before, but … I am still a brother of the Night’s Watch. I knelt before a heart tree and swore to hold no lands and father no children.”

[…]

“As you wish. But consider quickly. I am not a patient man, as your black brothers are about to discover.” Stannis put a thin, fleshless hand on Jon’s shoulder. “Say nothing of what we’ve discussed here today. To anyone. But when you return, you need only bend your knee, lay your sword at my feet, and pledge yourself to my service, and you shall rise again as Jon Stark, the Lord of Winterfell.”

- Jon XI, ASOS

We’re back again to the main point of Stannis’ offer: that he will legitimize Jon as a Stark and make him Lord of Winterfell. Once again, there is an implicit understanding on Stannis’ part that he has enough will and power to bypass Jon’s vows. And it seems that this was Robb’s thought as well.

And we know that there have been people who were offered kingship despite being sworn to a lifelong vow. Maester Aemon, who serves as one of Jon’s parallels, is one such example. Aemon reveals in AGOT that his vows have been tested three times.

“Three times the gods saw fit to test my vows. Once when I was a boy, once in the fullness of my manhood, and once when I had grown old. By then my strength was fled, my eyes grown dim, yet that last choice was as cruel as the first.”

- Jon VIII, AGOT

One of these times is presumably an offer of kingship, which was extended to him in 233 after the death of Maekar I. This is what the wiki tells us:

A Great Council was called in 233 AC after Maekar's death in the Peake Uprising. Since Prince Aegon was considered by some lords to be "half a peasant, it was suggested that Aemon could be released from his sworn vows and thereby succeed his late father. Aemon quietly refused, however, ceding rule to his younger brother, who became Aegon V.

ref.

So there is historical precedent, beyond just Robb and Stannis, for someone being offered an out from their vows.

Martin has also touched on the topic of exceptions made for those sworn to lifelong vows:

Q: The second concerns the oaths of the Night Watch, Maesters, King's Guard, silent sisters, etc. Both Robb and Stannis, and presumably Robb's great lords, thought it was possible that Jon could be released form his oaths. Other than the precedent established by Joffrey with Ser Barristan, is there any other past precedent with any of the other organizations were the members swear poverty, celibacy, etc. to be honorably released from their vows? I ask because if the NW has been around for 8000 years, and many great lords and/or their families may have joined (not entirely willing in some cases), there seems to be a lot of potential for "exceptions" to develop as time went on.

A: Yes, there have been a few other cases, but they have been very rare. Such vows are taken very seriously.

While he acknowledges that such vows are taken seriously, he does not challenge the notion that exceptions develop over time. So the point is, while the NW vows are sworn for life, Jon can be freed from them based on precedent and given the right authority. Robb, as King in The North, seems to think that he is that right authority. We do not know exactly how he planned on approaching the Night’s Watch or if this clause to free Jon from his vows was specifically mentioned in the Will. However, since the will is essentially an emergency document, I think we can assume that Robb made some allowances for this should he be unable to see things through.

A Conclusion of Sorts

If you’ve had no patience to read that wall of text, here’s a TL;DR

Jon is legitimized by Robb and his legitimization stands on its own. Arguably, it is not dependent on Bran and Rickon being alive. As such, Jon is now the eldest of the legitimate Stark children. Though there is an issue with him not being Ned’s natural born son, one can argue that Ned still claimed and raised him as one.

There is no reason to believe that Jon was not made Robb’s heir. We have plenty of meta-textual confirmation that he was the named heir in the will. Bran’s and Rickon’s survival is a roadblock, but that doesn’t diminish the fact that Jon is now legitimate, older than both, and has more experience than any of his siblings.

Jon being a sword brother of the Night’s Watch is certainly a big issue, but there is precedent for people being released from lifelong vows. Because the will is an emergency document - was made in the event that Robb dies without heirs of his own - it’s safe to assume that Robb provided some sort of framework that could be used to remove Jon from his vows.

All this to say that in spite of the various issues surrounding it, I don’t see why Robb’s Will cannot be regarded as a valid decree. And thus, I cannot see why we shouldn’t say that Jon is Robb’s heir.

Before I close out, allow me the opportunity to ask a Doylist question. If the will’s contents can so easily be thrown aside, why would George R.R Martin go out of his way to write it in (two chapters before the Red Wedding, mind you) if it wasn’t to play a role somehow? Why would he spend page time not only writing the conversation between Robb and Catelyn, but also writing cases of historical precedent that can be used in Jon’s favor?

The will’s purpose can’t just be to create drama between the Stark kids. There is plenty of that without Jon being added as a factor - especially since Jon wasn’t even a claimant before the will was written. Now that Robb is dead and Winterfell needs to be restored to the Starks, Martin obviously intends to do something with the will. He even made sure to emphasize that a bastard can be legitimized by a king and there are people still living who know of the will’s contents when asked about it.

I’m not arguing that Jon will automatically become king solely because of the will. What I am arguing is that the will is a valid document and Jon now has as much right to Winterfell as his siblings.

So as it stands, Jon is Robb’s legal heir. How that pans out and develops? Well, we’ll just have to wait for the next two books.

[dipperscavern]

dippy you’re so based… i was just rewatching the harry potter movies i’m afraid youre right abt the weasley twins i was just thinking abt them the other day aswell as sirius black who is my favourite british boytoy :/// all asoiaf fans had humble fantasy crush beginnings (mine the lord of the rings and im afraid i will never escape the lotr nerd allegations, once a freak always a freak). THE FEMININE NEED FOR A WHIMSICAL MAN!

but this begs the question,,, what other fandoms are you in… who are your other fictional crushes im so intrigued like do you have a type??? or is it just vibes

- pondering anon

hiii pondering anon!!! thank you for saying i’m based i’m truly honored (i’m sorry for this long ass reply u got me yapping)

i really wanna rewatch the movies sometime soon (saw them once years ago), but i reread the books like once a year once i’ve forgotten everything 😭😭i love everyone’s book personalities… and yeah. i’m afraid i need the weasley twins (cough fred cough), AND U CALLING SIRIUS A BOYTOY KMFAO. he was so cunth in the moocies

my humble fantasy beginnings was narnia’!! i wanna watch lotr but since hotd came out it kinda hit me like a tidal wave i fear. THE FEMININE NEED FOR A WHIMSICAL MAN!

i’m not sure if i consider myself to be in fandoms… like asoiaf was really the first time i’m like deep in the fandom yk? but i’ll share my stuff CAUSE WHY NOT!!! i like gravity falls, narnia, harry potter, percy jackson, the maze runner, the walking dead, the hunger games, greys anatomy, atla, the last of us, avatar the blue peopel, potc, criminal minds, shameless, and nobody shoot me scooby doo specifically the mystery incorporated version. FIGHT ME RHAT SHOW HAS SUCH GOOD LORD IDGAF!!!!! and in answer to my crushes question i give u, a text i sent my friend months ago:

“me with sandor clegane, jon snow, daemon targaryen, simon riley, finnick odair, steve harrington, lip gallagher, daryl dixon, rick grimes, robb stark, fred weasley, john mactavish, marcus lopez, jj maybank, alex karev, occasional mark sloan if i’m blackout drunk, peter parker, wayne mccullough, bill and charlie weasley when i’m ovulating, thomas in tmr movies & minho in the books, ellie williams, spencer reid, jake sully, jack sparrow, (unfortunately) feyd-rautha, the pope, and george washington”

and that’s just the text. i’ll remember more in a year when i’m like OMG WAIT HES SO FINE I FORGOT I HAVE A SHRINE OF HIM IN MG CLOSEt!!

[agentrouka-blog]

Jonsas never mention the fact that Jon dreamed of being a conqueror like King Daeron, I wonder why…

(Do you really "wonder why" or are you content making vague implications you don't care to spell out because it would make them even easier to refute?)

Why don't we spend our days talking about this?

Because GRRM mentions it twice, and both times he already dismantles it?

The first time it's a drunk 14-year-old trying to justify why he's already superqualified to join the Night's Watch, hoping to become a glamorously exciting ranger.

"Daeren Targaryen was only fourteen when he conquered Dorne," Jon said. The Young Dragon was one of his heroes." A conquest that lasted a summer," his uncle pointed out. "Your Boy King lost ten thousand men taking the place, and another fifty trying to hold it. Someone should have told him that war isn't a game." He took another sip of wine. "Also," he said, wiping his mouth, "Daeren Targaryen was only eighteen when he died. Or have you forgotten that part?" (AGOT, Jon I)

Young conquerors who get thousands killed and die young. Hello Robb. Hello..., well, let's not spoil anything else, I guess. His idealization is immediately reprimanded, for Jon the character and for the reader.

The second time, it's in direct contrast to the complex politics Jon-the-Lord-Commander is engaging in to balance out the interests of multiple dangerous parties so the maximum amount of human beings survive the winter and the Others, without killing each other - and secretly rescue his little sister on top of it.

When Jon had been a boy at Winterfell, his hero had been the Young Dragon, the boy king who had conquered Dorne at the age of fourteen. Despite his bastard birth, or perhaps because of it, Jon Snow had dreamed of leading men to glory just as King Daeron had, of growing up to be a conqueror. Now he was a man grown and the Wall was his, yet all he had were doubts. He could not even seem to conquer those. (ADWD, Jon VII)

The pivotal message here is that rulership is not that simple, not that glorious, not as banal as conquest. Jon is no longer a child hoping to compensate for his painful childhood with a power fantasy of being admired and adored for impressive feats of warfare. It's put into direct contrast with his actual challenges as a leader.

And wouldn't you know it, the moment Jon has a glamorous speech rallying men to march into war with him? That's the one moment GRRM chooses to undercut by immediately following it with his assassination. He will never ever depict war and battle as positive things, even with sympathetic characters. Even in defense, but especially related to conquest.

These things are not exactly subtle. GRRM is using Daeron and the way characters discuss him as a short-cut to criticising wars of conquest and those who glamorize them. Jon grows beyond that within the span of the books. His relationship with conquerors, especially in relation to the North, is bound to be conflicted.

So.. no, you're not seeing jonsas making a ton of posts about it. It's pretty clear-cut.

[esther-dot]

Beauty and the Beast

Tokens of Life (give me) 9k WIP by @ihaveastorminme

Jon thought of his mother's family often. But he never heard a whisper from them. Not once. Until the day the northern wind howled through the ancestral halls of the dragon Queens, bringing with it snow and wolves’ cries at its tail. Five hundred different deities in that hall, and nobody whispered when she walked in, tall and forbidding, the skirts of her dress swirling about her like mist and snow glittering unmelted in her flame hair. She looked at him... and everything changed.

No Rose Without a Thorn 24k

Ten years ago, the Others were defeated, the Starks took back the North, the Targaryens reclaimed the Iron Throne, and the Old Gods transformed Sansa Stark into a dread and dangerous beast. Now, winter is coming, the beast remains, and the family would really like Sansa to be a full time human again.

The Beast, the Beauty, and the Bastard 3k

It is a reworking of Disney's Beauty and the Beast, but with a bit of a twist. Hope you enjoy!

Certain As the Sun 22k, incomplete

Sansa is bright, beautiful, and out of place in her little town. After her father is captured in a forgotten castle, she moves to take his place with the cursed prince.

Gifset by @dcbicki and Gifset by @yenstarkofrivia

Rapunzel

From Tower to Tower 10k incomplete

Locked away in a tower for eighteen years by a witch claiming to be her Mother, long-haired Sansa seeks freedom and a chance to regain her crown as Princess of the kingdom. But the tower is high as she has no means to get down, aside from her incredibly long hair, and no guarantee of safety in the outside world she has been warned about. One night, when the witch is out, and a thief who climbs the tower seeking refuge happens upon her, she stuns herself by taking a chance and asking him to help her escape. Assuring him that she will have all charges against him dropped when he returns her to her rightful parents, she embarks on a series of first discoveries with her new bandit friend Jon.

I'll not be climbin' up, I'll only be calling good morning 13k @violetcoloredglasses

Princess Sansa, the rightful queen, has been trapped in a tower by her usurping step-mother for nigh on three years now. Between the benevolent interference of a local woods-witch, the seemingly random appearance of a dashing young man on a horse, and a magical book that Sansa uses to turn a man into a crow, she may have found a way to change her stars.

flower shaped heart 25k, incomplete @missfaber

Alayne Stone has lived her whole life in her hidden tower, forbidden by Mother to leave. But she yearns for an adventure like the ones in the songs, so when a man named Jon Snow crashes into her tower and into her life, she seizes the chance. They travel to King's Landing where the floating lanterns shine each year on her nameday. The new world is exciting and frightening, but Jon Snow is there to guide her every step. He is not nearly as terrible as Mother said men are, though the rest of the world might be. Danger, betrayals, and lies form the steps of their journey as Alayne uncovers terrible secrets. corresponding moodboard

Let Down Your Red Hair .6k

A Jonsa Rapunzel story told in verse. With her father beheaded and her brother marching against the king, the last thing Sansa expects is for her hair to never stop growing. She is soon locked away in the tallest tower of the Red Keep, withdrawn from court as the War of the Five Kings rages on. Elsewhere, rumors of her magical hair have spread to the Wildlings, who see her fiery strands as their last hope against the coming winter.

Tangled edit by @kitten1618x, Tangled edit by @queen-sans-in-the-north, Tangled edit by @sardoniyx

Tangled gifset by @dcbicki

Sleeping Beauty

La Belle au bois dormant 4k

When The North celebrates the birth of Lady Sansa, all the realm is invited to celebrate with them. Each Lady of a Great House bestows a gift upon the little lady, including Cersei Lannister, whose presence at the celebration is both unexpected and unnerving.

Once upon a Dream 1k by @azulaahai

Sansa is under a curse - fallen into a magical sleep, she, according to the prophecy, can only be awoken by a kiss from a dragon. Arya rides south to ask for help from the dragon king Aegon, but the king’s grumpy half brother Jon might prove to be an obstacle.

Visions are Seldom All They Seem 14k

Sansa Stark is sure her life is a great song. She's a beautiful princess. She's been cursed. And the only way it will be broken is to sleep for a hundred years and be awoken by true love's kiss, given by a king's son. She's more then happy to prick her finger if it means getting her happily ever after with a handsome prince all the sooner. But a hundred years is a long time. To be fair to Sansa, Jon did not realize how long it would be either.

Sleeping Beauty Gifset

East of the Sun and West of the Moon

you are my sun, my moon (and all of my stars) 133k

When the white wolf came, the Lord of Winterfell had no choice but to give him his eldest daughter. Eddard Stark had grown up on legends of wolves, on the stories of bargains made by the First Men, on the knowledge of the price that he and his family might one day be forced to pay.  His father had explained the reason their house had taken a wolf as its heraldry and “Winter is Coming” as its motto, a reminder of a promise to honor, a recognition of a debt owed that would need, one day, to be paid. Ned had breathed a sigh of relief when his sister’s twentieth winter arrived and the beast had not. And he had watched the dawn sky for the first signs of the snow that would mark that his daughter, too, might also be spared, might escape the fate that had been handed down by their ancestors. But no man could be so lucky.  Sansa, too, had been born with the North in her blood, had been raised on the stories of white wolves, had lived her life with the knowledge that one might come for her.

this is the map of my heart, the landscape after cruelty 22k by @dialux

“I fell,” Sansa says softly. “I flew.” [When a strange, hooded man appears out of nowhere, demanding a woman in return for keeping the Others and dead out of Westeros, Sansa goes with him. It’s the best and worst decision of her life.]

PRE CANON - WESTERN - REGENCY - LITTLE WOMEN - HOLIDAY - SEASON 6

[waitingforwinterwinds]

ASOS; Steel and Snow: 17 ARYA III (pages 227-235)

Arya experiences a betrayal on the road to (not) Riverrun.

-

On the morning of the third day, Arya noticed that the moss was growing mostly on the wrong side of the trees. "We're going the wrong way," she said to Gendry, as they rode past an especially mossy elm. "We're going south. See how the moss is growing on the trunk?"

Y'all need a compass. I mean, I assume a compass would work in Westeros. From what I understand, there is a 'curtain of light' or something further north of the Wall, deep in the Lands Of Always Winter, which I'm pretty sure is an aurora.

Auroras Borealis and Australis are formed when sun particles get dragged by the Earth's magnet poles into clusters and interact with stuff in the atmosphere, which suggests that there is a magnetic pole to the north of the Wall, so a compass should work. If they have the tech, which they shouuuu... how old are magnetic compasses? Google says the Chinese circa 206 BCE, so magnetic compasses are roughly 2200 years old. Cool Beans. But also if Yi Ti is Generic Fantasy Ancient Asia, then even if the Maesters didn't steal the tech, it should be around. ... who wants to tell me there's been at least one mention of a compass in the books thus far and I've just forgotten?

Telling Harwin would be almost like telling her father and there were some things that she could not bear having her father know.

Oh that came for my feels. ... now the question is: will Harwin live long enough to pass the information of Arya's survival on at a critical time?

...Harwin catching Arya up like. That's for giving us backstory, I appreciate it, but also don't add to Arya's trauma? Did you need the details about the arm chopping? I suppose it's kind of bonding, for them to swap stories, reconnect, what connection there is.

Arya was sucking the last bit of meat off a wing when one of the villagers turned to Lem Lemoncloak and said, "There were men through here not two days past, looking for the Kingslayer."

Lemon(cloak) = 🥛

She dreamt of home; not Riverrun, but Winterfell. It was not a good dream, though. She was alone outside the castle, up to her knees in mud. She could see the grey walls ahead of her, but when she tried to reach the gates every step seemed harder than the one before, and the castle faded before her, until it looked more like smoke tan granite. And there were wolves as well, gaunt grey shapes stalking through the trees all around her, their eyes shining. Whenever she looked at them, she remembered the taste of blood.

working through stuff, or visions = 🥛

I am going to count this one, just because, even knowing that it works as a vision because I know Arya's path doesn't lie towards Winterfell (yet), it also works as an expression of her anxiety and frustration over the fact that no matter how far she travels, she never seems to get closer to home or safety, like something is dragging her back every struggling step of the way. There's always something that stops her from making measurable, sustained progress. You really could interpret this one either way. It's been a bit since we've had a dream that's so on the fence about whether it's one or the other.

... The Betrayal!!!

... Run Arya, Run!!!

She knew the fight was done. "You ride like a northman, milady," Harwin said when he'd drawn them to a halt. "Your aunt was the same. Lady Lyanna. But my father was master of horse, remember." The look she gave him was full of hurt. "I thought you were my father's man." "Lord Eddard's dead, milady. I belong to the lightning lord now, and to my brothers."

Poor Arya. Jon and Sansa both had a thing going on with allies (temporary and false) which I think I commented was a theme running through those few chapters with Arya and Dany as well, but those were newly met. I did remember from the show where Arya's path was going (in the more immediate) but I didn't think it would come directly from Harwin. The betrayal.

"- He has an army all his own, and many lords bend the knee. The smallfolk only have us."

Urgh, this series! Let me be angry at some one for a change! let it be simple and uncomplicated "this person did a shitty thing and is Bad." But noooo, GRRM is all about the complexity. More layers than an onion. Nuance and motivations.

No, no, I get it. Sadly, even though he's betraying Arya's trust here, he's one of the few still fighting for the smallfolk. Goodness knows the kings and their armies have stopped giving a shit... if they gave one to begin with.

She had been better off as Squab. No one would take Squab captive, or Nan, or Weasel, or Arry the orphan boy. I was a wolf, she thought, but now I'm just a stupid little lady again.

I mean, they were all captives, that was a pretty significant thing that happened. Mmm, more identity stuffs for Arya. comparing her freedom in false identities to the fact that it's her core identity which has her in trouble in the first place, add that shake up with her core identity from a few chapters back, I'm not going to be surprised if she attempts to - ah right, House of Black and White and "becoming No-one." No surprise about it, she literally does attempt to reject her core identity at a future point.

[jackoshadows]

If you saying Jonsa is not happening GRRM didn't write anything for them, how you shipping Jonerys 🤣 There's nothing for Jonerys, and Jon still cares for Sansa and thinks of her. He has written something for Jonsa and nothing for Jonerys.

I mean, Jon and Dany haven't met yet, they haven't heard of each other, they don't know of each other, they don't know the other person exists yet.... Why would they think of each other?

Jon and Sansa do know of each other. They grew up in the same castle. They are half siblings. And yet Jon can't spare a single thought of worry or concern for Sansa's situation, where she is and her status in being married to Tyrion Lannister.

That's the point.

I have seen some try to justify this as Tyrion is not bad as Ramsay and that is why Jon is not worried and all that, and yet! Sansa was still a political hostage forced into marriage by the Lannisters, she's alive and somewhere in Westeros, Stannis is actually mentioning Sansa in their conversation and yet we get nothing, nada, zilch, zero.

Same with Sansa. She's playing a pretend bastard in the Vale and not once does she recall her bastard half-brother, instead confessing to having forgotten about his existence until Myranda Royce brings up his name.

There's no way I am shipping two characters who care so little for each other. It's the emotional bonds that matters to me - loyalty, love, concern, worry - that's what I find attractive in relationships rather than superficial notions of beauty, subjective chemistry and 'they look hot together'. That's why I generally tend to favour platonic relationships - friendships, siblings, found family, brotherhood, sisterhood.

It's clear that as an author GRRM is not invested in Jon and Sansa's relationship in the books. Sansa matters to Jon in the wider context of family and Winterfell - she is tagged on at the end when he thinks about all of his family or when he refers to his sisters being alone in KL. The little we hear of Sansa from him is the typical Sansa characterization of liking enchanted beauty like the Wall or her telling him to praise a girl's name. That's it. There's no emotional weight behind their relationship, no intimate moments between them. They don't think fondly of each other, Jon never shows up in Sansa nostalgic memories of her family and Jon is actually surprised that while missing his family, he missed 'Even' Sansa.

If the author was building some grand romance then he would actually throw in those hints in the actual books!! That's how a writer organically builds up a relationship.

Jon and Dany have not even met and yet Jon keeps referring to dragons and Dany sees the blue rose all the way over at the Wall while being called a bride of fire!! That's actual foreshadowing! That's how it's done.

There's actual parallels of them as leaders. There's parallels of them at the ends of their worlds trying to reform and help people. They are close in age, in maturity, in thinking and goals. They are Targaryens, they are each other's type beyond just looks and beauty, there is prophecy connected to them, they have magical pets, they will be essential to saving the world.

You read all this and then go 'But snow fell on Sansa's face in the Vale...Jonsa is so real in the books 🥰' and then call it 'Sansa hate' if I laugh at it, then so be it.

[rise-my-angel]

This is what I wish more modern show fans of this series would consider. That a lot of the time, grrm WANTS to challenge you on your opinions of these characters.

He makes the heroes do stupid, fucked up, or indefensible things to force you to remember these are just humans who make mistakes and you should not look at them in pure worship.

But he also makes characters who he has built you to hate, and dolls out what feels like karamtic justice only for you to realize that they do not deserve the degree of punishment they are getting. It forces you to look at your own enemy and have sympathy for the fact that under all that is someone just like us.

In the books, our first introduction to Theon is Bran and Jon watching him kick a decapitated head and Jon calls him an ass. It paints a picture of who this guy is, and you rally for him to get his just desserts and then he does, and you feel sick that this is the punishment. It forces you to realize that cruelty us never justice and you should not want it to happen to the characters, because it's not that that specific character doesn't deserve that it's that no one does.

It's why he gives otherwise whole unlikable villainous characters, really emotional and horrifying deaths. It's why Viserys III and Joffery Baratheons deaths are not painted as justified, but horrific and terrifying. You should hate them, but grrm wants you to look at yourself and ask do you hate them so much that they deserve brutal torture and untold cruelty?

Because the answer is no. He does not want you to worship your favourites as always in the right. Even when their logic is justified, they still do things that you can, will, and should protest against. Because they're still human and will make decisions that are not the best even when they think it is. For example my favourite character Jon Snow, swapping Gilly andvMances baby makes sense with his logic but I hate it a lot. It makes me look at Jon and think what is wrong with you that's not okay, even if he gave a genuinly logical reason. It didn't make him any less my favorite character, but it forces me to remember he is not without his own deserving of criticism.

And on the flip side, Cersei was the best example. Now she is also one of my favorite characters in the books, but she really digs her own grave. You can love her and still feel like you cannot wait for her own terrible plans to blow up in her face, because even if you love her, you think God does she deserve to be punished for all this shit she's caused.

Then she does her walk of atonement and it is one of the most heartbreaking sequences. It is so utterly dehumanizing for her and it's a trauma that will never leave her for the rest of her life and your basically forced to go on this walk with her. It's gut wrenching how quickly you realize you were wrong, that she does not deserve this because no one deserves this pure humiliation.

It's amazing at the end of a long arc where she is so consistently in the wrong, by the time you reach the consequences she should face, grrm forces you to look at yourself and make you ask, does your hatred of what she's done TRULY make her deserving of something this painfully cruel?

But the thing is, is that a modern trend in this fandom, show and book, is that the audience seems to have forgotten this. Good characters are always in the right and never should be critized even when they should be, and people who do bad things are nothing more then monsters who deserve no humanity shown towards them.

I hate Daenerys Targaryean, and yet each rewatch of season 1 or reread of the first book, even through that hate I still find myself enjoying watching her grow independent and confident for once in her life. I find her growth satisfying until she takes it too far, but that doesn't mean I wish she never found that confidence in the first place. I also still find her even during her arcs that have me throughly against her, funny sometimes. The way she genuinly tells Grey Worm, Ser Barristan, and Jorah in succession that they are too important and mean too much to her to risk sending against the champion of Meereen, being followed by how quickly and dryly she agrees to just let Daario Naharas to do it by basically just being like "don't fuck it up, idiot." It's funny, I hate her, but she's still funny and her budding romance with Daario IS charming. I can find humanity in this character I hate because grrm knows how to force it's audience to challenge their own views.

A Song of Ice and Fire is special because it challenges its audience as much as it does its characters on their own sense of morality, and I think that's something more modern fans of the shows in particular should remember more. Because I think we've gotten too complacent with thinking the characters in asoiaf exist on a spectrum of only good or evil, when in grrms world, no one exists there.

It's not a coincidence that Melisandre tells Davos that "If half an onion is black with rot, it's a rotten onion. A man is good, or he is evil." Comes in tandem with a scene in the books where Sam in facts, seperates the rotten half of an onion and manages to salvage the rest of it to be eaten safely.

He presents someone who thinks the world is this way, then shows you with silent action, that the notion is an inaccurate way to look at the world.

Honestly, one of my favorite things about GRRM's writing in asoiaf is how it turns the reader's bloodthirstiness against them.

Take Theon in ACOK, you are cheering in his final chapter because finally! Just desserts for that arrogant foolish bastard!

You read how the Bolton's have him captured in ASOS and say "Heh, good riddance".

And then... you read Reek chapters and with growing horror, you realize who is the person narrating. And suddenly, this need for payback, for him to face justice, doesn't feel that righteous anymore. No person should go through this.

The same goes for Cersei, her blaze of cruelty and scheming catches up to her when the sparrows imprison her. FINALLY, justice! and... you can only stare in horror and disgust at the walk of atonement scene. There is no vindication to be found here.

[jonquildove]

starkmatriarch:

Did she know her name? The name of this woman who made Ned forget his honour, forget his wife, forget his unborn son? As she thinks, her red hair dancing in red waves in the dawning sky. It was Wylla, Ned had thought to himself. Would that she did, perhaps the thoughts would have plagued less, perhaps she would have despised Jon Snow less, perhaps she would not have felt so inadequate because of it all. Perhaps not. She would never know, for Ned would always refuse her an answer, no matter how many times she asked. He spoke of his story to his friend and king, Robert, as they walked in the courtyard. He must have loved her, to wish to protect her honour so much, he must have loved her. Jon Snow was a child borne of love, and that was what hurt her the most. Ned had not forgotten his honour for one night, one night of drink in a brothel, the night before a battle. It had not been some serving girl he would soon forget about. This was a woman he had known, had grown to love in his wife’s absence, and would protect her against all that would ask him of her. Did he love her more than he had grown to love Cat? Catelyn knew they had not loved one another at first, that theirs was a marraige of duty, but now it was a union bound by a love so strong she felt naught could break it. She did not believe she could love another man more We are tied, connected, she thought to herself, but we had not been then. As she has a frame of a silver trout on the wall, symbolising her freedom in feeling like a fish in the rivers. You tied yourself to another Ned and gave her a child…why…the Starks are honourable, why would you do that to me, even then? And bring the child home, to flaunt the betrayal in my face, to have a constant, never ceasing reminder as the years went by. Gods, but I love you Ned, but why? And why will you not tell me? He had wanted to take care of the child in his arms, as the girl he had bedded could not support the child, as she was struggling to live her life within poverty. She had then thought this again, when seeing her father Hoster on his bed in Riverrun, he asking about a girl called Tansy to see him through to the beautiful light of magic. “No,” Catelyn replied, “I do not. Though I have asked your Father many times, he will not tell me. He will speak of her to no one, not even to Jon Snow”

Sansa’s heart went out to her lady mother. It must have killed her not to know which woman made her father, her kind, loving, honourable father, forget his and Catelyn’s vows however momentarily. Father always seemed very kind and honourable, fighting in the battle in the rebellion and talking to her family. Sansa wondered who the woman was as well, curiosity burning in her mind. She continued walking with her mother, back to twirling her flower, and into deep thought. Hearing about her family was interesting, as she steadily looks through her darkening mind in her journey through the gardens. The rebellion was interesting too, she thinking Aegon -- not Aerys -- she remembered ; a young man with curly blonde hair -- rather mean to Aemond, showing him a pig as a dragon. They said this dragon was his, saying it had a tail and everything, Aegon scrunching his face in a dramatic oink. Alicent, his mother had been mad to him for playing a cruel trick on Aemond, the other saying it was just a joke. The Targaryens were always interesting to her, she touching the paper of the history book, seeing a black-haired girl looking into the wide roaring mouth of the dragon, Balerion, known as the Black Dread. She placed a comforting hand on her mother’s shoulder, and said, “I can try asking, Mother…Or, is it perhaps best left in the past…?”