#beetlebabes discourse

[the-marshals-wife]

Betelgeuse and Astrid "Death" Parallel

I'm not sure what else to call this observation/rambling, but I've been thinking a lot about the events of Beetlejuice Beetlejuice, and on my most recent viewing, I noticed something super satisfying about this scene. You know, other than the obvious.

We all know Beej is not one to turn down a deal, least of all when it involves his own self-interest. And of course, it's very advantageous for him to rescue the daughter of the woman whose heart he's trying desperately to win. But there's another delicious layer to him being the one to personally dispose of Jeremy Fraizer...

Betelgeuse knows exactly what it's like to be manipulated by love, only to then have your life taken from you.

Delores manipulated him under the guise of love to steal his life (and his soul) to gain immortality, the same way that Jeremy pretended to care for Astrid so that he could ultimately take her life for his own.

It's think pretty accurate to assume that neither Delores nor Jeremy felt anything genuine for their victims. They were a means to an end. But where Betelgeuse had to defend himself on his own, unable to reverse what had been done, Astrid was not alone. While she was preoccupied with running from the afterlife authorities, reuniting with her father, and getting some much-needed family closure, there was someone else looking out for her.

Enter our anti-hero.

We don't get any direct insight into Beej's thoughts on the Jeremy situation, but it probably struck a nerve for him. He would never admit it, but how could it not? We already know he's privy to Rory's manipulation of Lydia and is eager to expose him, but this is not about a toxic, gold-digging relationship. This is literally life and death. It follows that he would be just as if not more upset to learn that a murderous wolf in sheep's clothing was trying to kill Lydia's daughter, especially given the nature of his own death.

(I mean c'mon, he used his one PG-13 ordained f-bomb on the guy. I think it's safe to say he felt pretty strongly about Jeremy's villainy.)

We all know how it plays out in the end, but I think it's rather poetic that Beej is able to avenge his 'would-be stepdaughter' and save her from a devious scheme very similar to the one that he fell prey to.

He couldn't get his own life back from Delores (though arguably he does, at least metaphorically, in the finale), but he was able to give Astrid back hers.

So there you have it. Now that I see the parallels, it's ten times more vindicating that Betelgeuse was the one that got to send that slimeball to hell. And let's be honest: Beej would probably agree.

[jadeluz-official]

Anti discourse is SO funny to me because like. Beetlejuice was one of the only characters that didn't manipulate, take advantage of, or use personal jabs at Lydia. What did he do? He told her loves her twice (if you count the wedding). And yeah he stalked her, which was revealed to be him watching over Lydia getting trapped in Rory's manipulative spider-web. He literally cannot stop smiling around her in most of their interactions. The movie encourages you to be aware of the pairing, as Beetlejuice gets pushed out of the villain into an anti-hero role & more likeable as Lydia's romantic partner. And we're mentally disturbed for seeing some potential on that?? Okay, sure, go figure. You have every reason not to ship it, but you do not have any right to threaten & insult people about it. I know Beetlebabes is questionable in the first movie, but it's easily the healthiest relationship route in the sequel:

[evanpeterswifeyyy]

If you ship Beetlejuice and Lydia Deetz, you're disturbed. Idc. I said it

In the first movie she was 16 and Beetlejuice is a 100 million bajillion year old demon forcing her to marry him.

"Well that's the first movie! She's an adult now and he only did it because of blah blah blah!"

And to that I say---he forces her again the second movie, and the whole time she refuses him, is annoyed or terrified by him. The first part of the movie, she is literally having PTSD of seeing visions of Beetlejuice and tries her hardest to keep him from coming back into her life.

She then is forced to work with him to get her daughter back, and he gives her an incentive to be with him and uses that opportunity to force her to be with him again. It's not cute or romantic either that he has a picture of her on his desk, it's weird, obsessive and creepy. Especially because Lydia time and time again, DOES NOT WANT HIM. If you can't see that in the film you're either media illiterate or purposely ignorant.

And don't even do the "Well she didn't want her fiance either!" NEWS FLASH!!!!! The female lead does NOT have choose between either love interest or other characters!

[jackie-gremlin-ghost]

People on TikTok coming into the Beetlejuice fandom since the new movie came out: OMG WHY ARE PEOPLE SHIPPING BEETLEJUICE AND LYDIA NOW?! WHAT A BUNCH OF FREAKS!

Me, who’s been in the fandom since 1999:

[theblackdog552]

Lydia x beetlejuice haters are so funny to me cause people will say “did you even watch the movie” as if Winona ryder wasnt IN THE MOVIE and yet still ships it

[xxx-theartofsuicide-xxx]

This, ladies and germs, is what we call an emotional bias. This argument is worthless because it hinges on the personal disgust of the author while lobbing ad hominems at anyone who disagrees with them. Only surface level plot analysis is utilized to support the claims made therein, and no attempt is made to either acknowledge or invalidate all evidence to the contrary, which is bountiful and plenty.

This is the only type of argument you will ever see from antis. Civil debate is beyond their scope.

Reposting with a screenshot rather than a reblog because I'm happy to let OP hang out in the rain with the plastic cows.

Edit: I just noticed they had the audacity to put this in Winona's tag. Disrespectful. Ungrateful.

[winonation]

anytime i read a post and/or comment that says something along the lines of “oh my god people ACTUALLY ship beetlebabes?” i have to automatically assume it is that persons first day on the internet. maybe even their first day being alive

[aspergirl-2006]

As someone who loves Beetlejuice, and his whole dynamic and relationship with Lydia (in all its forms); I find really distasteful how when I see a beautiful artwork of them together bonding, having fun and such, I'm gonna give it a like because I think it's nice and cute, but then I see a big text at the end in capital letters:

“NOT SHIP ART, BEETLEB*BES DNI” with the name censored and everything, as if it was some kind of slur.

And then I'm like- “Oh, okay then; I don't know why you feel the need to clarify that when there's nothing romantic happening, but alright, I won't bother you” and proceed to block them.

I don't know, but the fact these people are so eager to yell that their work is not ship content, even though no one except them has implied that, and telling anyone who doesn't see BJ and Lyds as anything but platonic to not talk to them, not even to say that the art is good, is really... Funny to me, to say the least.

Anyway, wait until they find out couples have been wearing BJ and Lydia's wedding outfits for Halloween ever since the first movie came out; I really wonder why that might be.

[herefortheships]

What do you think of the Bj and Lydia controversy due to age?

You know, the short answer I have for this is that I do not think it should be an issue that's even brought up anymore. Lydia is now an adult woman in her 50s; plenty of people end up with a partner who is 10+ years older than them, meaning that they would have been a full adult if they would have come across their partner at sixteen. And that's just speaking about the real world; let's not forget Beetlejuice and the characters in that world are all a work of fiction. I don't think the fact that they met when she was a teenager all those years ago should even be an issue to ship it or not. As a matter of fact, people can ship whatever they want. They can even ship it in the first film and it's not an issue... Shipping in itself is inherently innocent. These characters and the situations around them don't even exist, and therefore, whatever you imagine with them, has no effect in the real world. Shipping is no different from a kid grabbing a couple of dolls and making them kiss. It's all in good fun.

Let me tell you, I had written a long freaking essay under this question 😅, but I decided to leave all of that for a separate post. But a few notable points from that essay which I think would be good to include here are the following.

Back in the 90s and early 2000s we had ships with pretty big age gaps on network TV and nobody batted an eye about the age gap (as far as I'm concerned). I'm talking about Buffy the Vampire Slayer specifically in this post. This was before social media, but as far as magazines and fandom spaces go, I'm sure the discussions around Buffy's love interests in BTVS centered around which hot vampire was better for Buffy, Angel or Spike. (Even nowadays we see this kind of article, exhibit A). And you don't see these articles starting with disclaimers and trigger warnings, either.

For those who haven't watched BTVS, Angel was around 240-something when he slept with 17 year old Buffy. He slept with her the night she turned 17, by the way; they were already together while she was 16. At the time he was turned into a vampire, Angel was around 26 years old. Angel met Buffy when she was 16, but he was stalking watching Buffy since she was 15:

Now about Spike. Spike met Buffy when she was 16, but he didn't actually become obsessed with her until she was around 20. Still, they got together and it wasn't ever an issue that he met her when she was a teenager. In Spike's case, he did stick around and interacted with Buffy multiple times before they started dating. In Betelgeuse's case, we know that while he watched Lydia from afar, he never actually managed to interact or even be seen by her during the years they were apart.

A lot of antis throw around the word "grooming" around Beetlebabes; I don't think they understand the meaning of that word. To put it simple, to groom someone is to condition them and emotionally manipulate them for years into a certain behavior, in this context, into falling in love or becoming sexually involved with the groomer. This term, therefore, cannot and will not ever apply to Betelgeuse and Lydia's relationship (it also does not apply to Spuffy, while we're at it). How can it? When they only had a few interactions over 30+ years ago and only met now after all that time.

And about those interactions in the first movie, the fact that Betelgeuse attempted to marry Lydia is attached to an idea of sexual inappropriateness only when that particular idea is projected onto what actually happened in that scene. Objectively, for Betelgeuse, marrying Lydia was a means to an end; there was no sexual or romantic implications in their marriage in that movie.

I believe in the case of Betelgeuse x Lydia versus ships like Buffy x Angel or Buffy x Spike, people are quick to see an issue in one where they never notice an issue in the other for the following reason: While Angel and Spike are hot, young-looking vampires, Betelgeuse is gross and does look like a dead guy. That is literally the difference. Spike and Angel are good-looking hotties; Betelgeuse... I love him lots and he is hot for me, but he is not conventionally attractive. I bet you if Betelgeuse looked like Michael Keaton did playing Bruce Wayne... People wouldn't have an issue that he's lusting after 50-something year old Winona Ryder, (also a hottie herself btw).

Let's add here before I close off this post that both Angel and Spike did objectively horrible things to Buffy when they were soulless (Angel while Buffy was still a minor), and meanwhile Betelgeuse has never harmed Lydia (no, the insta-pregnancy didn't harm her; everything that happened in that scene was an illusion). He didn't even behave inappropriately toward her in the first film when he was wilder and hornier than he is now. And yet shipping Bangel or Spuffy (last I checked lol) isn't widely seen as problematic. I ship Spuffy to the moon and back, and used to ship Bangel as well at some point 🤷🏻‍♀️ and I haven't seen people attacking shippers nor have I seen discussions of these ships being inappropriate (though I'm sure there must be... it's 2024 and the purity culture fandom infection has spread widely), not in the way I see Beetlebabes fans being harassed.

Anyway, I wrote a separate post about this and will post it eventually. This wasn't meant to be this long, but here we are 😅.

[afterthefuneral]

I realized my fanart output has been sluggish lately. I’m trying to remedy that. I have some funny ideas in the back of my head. I’ve had some health issues and I’m preparing for Halloween. But I have been writing a companion piece to Cradle to Grave revolving around Beetlejuice’s diary called Confessions of a Bio-Exorcist. Cradle to Grave is necessary to read first, because confessions revolves around Beetlejuice’s perspective through the events and some bonus content of chapters in between.

See below for a little bit of tea.

I’m known as “the least confrontational beetlebabe” but I’m approaching my limit. Believe me, I would like to unload regarding the infighting in this fandom and the discourse between pro and anti shippers.

I try to be as kind and polite as possible. I used to have a mean streak but I’m working on it. It confuses and saddens me to see such vitriolic behavior in, let’s be honest, a fandom for a 36 year old Tim Burton movie.

In the meantime I will try to share other peoples art and funny memes to raise other voices, while I work on my own content. I appreciate all that have messaged me and shown support. Thank you, my little juice boxes!

[miss-bvnny]

What looking at @impactrueno art every day for a month and seeing BX2 four times does to an mf

Savor this tidbit, cuz it's all you're gettin from ME on the subject!!!!

[xxx-theartofsuicide-xxx]

Musical wouldn't exist without beetlebabes. Sequel wouldn't exist without beetlebabes. Cartoon wouldn't even be available on DVD if a bunch of beetlebabes hadn't sent out snailmail in the 90's/early 2000's demanding it. Should've gatekept this shit because the number of ungrateful media illiterate ignorant brats with frozen takes and terrible headcanons grows by the day.

Another thing I want to say about Beetlejuice is that I find it so funny when I see a newbie in the fandom think that shipping Beetlejuice and Lydia is a brand new thing and assume that people who ship it have never seen the original.

I don't know who needs to hear this but this ship has existed since 1988 when the original came out, and those of us who ship it have not only seen the original but most can probably quote the script in their sleep from how many times they've watched it.

[jadeluz-official]

Beetlejuice Beetlejuice is one of those movies where you could throw a theory out and nothing is wrong.

Which is why it sucks as a linear story plot.

And I love this franchise to death, loved the sequel too. But it does have its errors with plot holes about civil servants (especially BJ himself), a contract being broken by the Handbook despite both parties agreeing (+ that didn't involve Afterlife authority intervention to begin with), and Richard not being able to see Lydia was never?? Explained?? Delores wanting immortality despite already being dead, Lydia's mom still being alive, ugh, etcetera etcetera. The list goes on. This sequel leaves us with more questions than answers. And that's the point - we're supposed to assume how to fill in those gaps, which doesn't work well in this case without proper seeds to find it.

This movie ends us off with a "What the fuck was that ending?" because seriously, what the fuck was that ending? If not putting their foot in the door for a third movie setup, they want us to talk about it and theorize it from the ground up.

I personally think the dream started when BJ said "I love a good dream sequence" and Delores coming in, and Lydia backing out of the deal was his worst nightmare. As far as I'm concerned, they're happily married and sleep in the same bed together. That's my take on it. Nothing more. The Babyjuice at the end is just a fun gag and reference to Carrie (2013).

But at face value, this movie is nothing more than a love story between Lydia and Beetlejuice. Like that's it. It's just Beetlejuice trying his hardest to win over Lydia and he almost gets her. I'd argue that's the only plot point where the movie takes itself seriously, haha

The only thing that will disprove any of these theories or clear up some or plot holes is a BJ3, which I highly doubt is gonna happen. And this sequel ends off on a Beetlebabes-ish note either way, I'd take that as a win

[herefortheships]

Antis will call you a creep for liking what they think is a “problematic ship”, and then proceed to stalk your comments on social media so they can argue with you everywhere. I don’t know about you, but that kind of stalking actually looks like creep behavior to me. Like why are you stalking my posts, comments and replies? Also stop consuming this type of content if it bothers you so much. Lol

And if you want to consume Beetlejuice content on YouTube and not see any Lydia x Beetlejuice shipping comments… use an extension to hide the comments, my friend, because the majority of the audience supports the ship after the sequel, so you’re gonna see a lot of people asking for them to get married and commenting about how much they love them, etc. 🤷🏻‍♀️

[rtfics]

I want them to say bad things about Winona to Michael Keaton. That would be fun.

Keaton with anti:

but would an anti walk up to winona ryder herself and call her disturbed or a creep or a pedophile. it's the ultimate test. she is the final boss, after all.

[psifitopia]

more on beetlebabes discourse

I don't care what you think or your opinion about my ships. Ships are about FICTIONAL characters. What people ship says NOTHING about who they are offline. I'm not going to argue with anyone about this. I said what I said.

Y'know what I do care about? Evil, judgmental idiots telling people to kill themselves. Because, Lydia is a fictional character with mental health issues and real people with mental health issues relate to her.

You might actually push someone over the edge to kill themselves. Stop and think about that. You can use your keyboard to kill someone. You will actually have a real person's blood on your hands.

If I see people being stupid about beetlebabes, I will report you. See, I can report that I'm blocking you and you will be investigated. I encourage everyone else to do the same.