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that-shamrock-vibe · 4 years ago

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Movie Review: Wonder Woman 1984 (Spoilers)

Spoiler Warning: I haven’t been able to see this movie when it came out here in the U.K, so had to wait until a couple of days after Christmas to both watch and review it. If you haven’t seen this movie by the last week of the year and want to avoid spoilers go and watch it before reading on.

General Reaction:

I have finally seen Wonder Woman 1984, the first new superhero movie I have seen in 2020 outside of The New Mutants and my god it has been a trial to be able to watch this.

Being from the U.K, which was surprisingly a factor with one minor part of this movie, we over here usually get the big blockbusters particularly of the comic-book variety before or on the same day as the U.S. However, thanks to this fakakta pandemic and the new world order that movie studios and theatres find themselves in during 2020, I have been reduced to watching a blockbuster movie for the first time initially on my laptop rather than on the big screen as movies like this should be brought out first as.

I am fully aware that this is a global pandemic and that watching movies in the cinema pales in significance to what needs to be done to combat and eventually defeat this crisis, but being from an area where all cinemas are closed I’m out on a limb basically.

I won’t turn this part of the review into a COVID rant because frankly I am sick of talking about it but I do feel COVID will be a factor with the performance of these upcoming movies.

That being said, the second real world rant factor I have for this is WW1984 I feel has suffered due to constant schedule shifting and I feel a fairly uneven advertising campaign.

I went into this movie not thinking I was going to see the villains the way they are in the trailers or the comics and honestly it does seem that Cheetah and Max Lord, who are both credited Wonder Woman villains, have their roles reversed and the one who you think is going to be the biggest threat pretty much becomes a henchman and the one mainstream fans may not know a lot about is surprisingly the big threat but you’re also meant to feel sympathetic for both of them to a degree.

It seems a complete 180 spin from the first Wonder Woman movie which was a very grounded and gritty WW1 story to now be in the zany 80s...which as a decade has aspects of being zany yes but the way in which this movie plays out genuinely made me think of Sam Raimi’s Spider-Man movies...but the best of them rather than Emo Peter.

There are so many plot points in this movie that more or less spawn from the main McGuffin of the movie which is the Dream Stone allowing people to make wishes but grants them with a sacrifice. The movie has several sub-plots that are the repercussions of the wishes that everyone makes and individually all of these sub-plots are very interesting...it’s when you then try to tie them all together for the big climactic battle that is when you get a bit of a mess,

Also, there is hardly any action in this movie and as both a Wonder Woman movie and a superhero movie in general, I am longing for some action sequences this year and the fact there are almost no good v evil fights would be disappointing, if not for the fact I understand where Patty Jenkins and the writers are trying to accomplish with this movie in comparison to the first movie.

I am not a massive Wonder Woman fan, I know the basics of Diana, the two Wonder Girls, Cheetah and Max Lord enough to understand what is going on. But the one thing that has always drawn me to her is that she is a hero with two distinct sides.

Firstly there’s the warrior that most mainstream fans would be aware of which is more played up in the first movie, but then there’s also the diplomat and the ambassador who attempts to always get across her message of peace which is more played up here.

If I think about it from that perspective, I can forgive the lack of action.

That being said, there is still a jumble of plot points that once you do untangle them all lead to the same conclusion, but there are too many ideas in 2h30 to make the movie coherent.

That’s the main negatives out of the way, the positives somewhat outweigh the negatives, let it be known I did enjoy this movie and there are some brilliant moments and sequences, but a lot of scenes aren’t developed enough or some aspects seem to be kept on the backburner maybe for a sequel.

Characters:

Diana:

We have to start with Wonder Woman herself, but as I mentioned before I am calling her Diana rather than Wonder Woman in my subheading because there wasn’t a lot of Wonder Woman action in this movie. If you’ve seen the trailers you’ve seen pretty much everything.

Going back to that first action piece when we are reintroduced to Wonder Woman at the shopping mall, I do understand why she’s doing what she’s doing by acting as a vigilante rather than a public superhero and not using violence does keep in step with where we first met her in Batman v. Superman during present day where she claims not to be about fighting or saving mankind anymore and to be honest here she does keep with that. She’s given up her Godkiller sword and shield but still makes full use of her lasso of truth along with her bracelets of submission and Aunt Antiope’s Tiara in a defensive manner but never to outwardly cause harm.

But yes, this entire sequence could easily substitute Wonder Woman with Spider-Man and her lasso and tiara with his web-shooters and feel like the good parts of Sam Raimi’s Spider-Man movies. It’s just borderline corny and somewhat cartoonish particularly when she’s saving the two young girls by either dropping them on a rocking horse or spinning them into giant teddy bears.

Also there’s that Cairo highway chase scene which sees Steve and Diana chasing after Max Lord who has just achieved his goal of claiming an army. I both like and dislike this scene. I like the scene for showing the starting effects of Diana’s power loss which is later explained to be the cause of Barbara’s wish to be like her which means she is syphoning Diana’s power.

On the flip-side, I really don’t like the overall action in this scene. Firstly, she seemingly has her armour on underneath her clothes because as she’s getting out the car she has her clothes on one minute and her armour in the next shot with no spinning involved.

Secondly, she gets out the car and starts running almost instantly while the car is still moving...I get she’s a demigoddess and therefore normal laws of motion may not apply to her but there’s no dodgy transition or stumbling or anything, she just starts running...Baywatch style to a remix of her theme which is brilliant but because of her losing her powers she is somewhat weakened and therefore you see her bleed. The whole scene just seems rather sloppy.

Regardless of the somewhat lacklustre action of the movie, Wonder Woman 1984 excels in presenting a different form of battling with words rather than weapons. Diana’s message of hope and love at the end of the movie may be a complete switch around from how she was all for being the god-killer in the first movie where Ares was involved, but it’s definitely a good message and, particularly in these times, a needed message.

Sometimes love and hope is enough, Diana does try and see the best in everyone and cannot understand or comprehend evil unless there is no other option. Ares was the God of War and as such a personification of hate and therefore evil. Max was simply corrupted and misguided and Diana could see that, just as Barbara was.

All of this is sold in Gal Gadot’s performance. You can tell from the start Diana is doing what she’s doing because she feels it is what’s right, but particularly when Steve comes back and the ultimatum is either saving the world or keeping him she is definitely torn at one point. Steve is the only thing she has ever wished for herself other than becoming a warrior and protector so why shouldn’t she be rewarded for her decades of servitude?

Also, much like every movie she appears in, Gal Gadot looks stunning throughout this movie. Not just in her Wonder Woman and Golden Armor but also in her Diana persona, she wears what appears to be a boiler suit at one point in this movie and still looks like it could be modelled on a runway. I know Gal is/was a model but she is never defined by that. When she’s acting she’s an actress first and a model second and the clothes never wear her.

My favourite look of hers which I now have in Funko form is her gala dress because not only does it honour her Amazon roots but it just looks stunning.

Her Wonder Woman armour here is made somewhat more cheesecaky than her other versions and it does make Diana look somewhat like Wonder Woman barbie but because of the vibrant 80s setting this movie is in and particularly with who else shows up in the movie offering a great parallel to it, it actually won me over. If this is how Wonder Woman looks as a diplomat I’ll allow it.

I really do enjoy the parallels between the DCEU’s Diana Prince and Bruce Wayne in terms of the detective/vigilante combination. Because there was little fighting here, Diana was allowed to be the detective more, travelling to different places tracking down Max Lord and figuring out that the Dream Stone is the cause of Steve returning from the dead.

However, while they may be pushing Diana and Bruce together in the present day, Diana’s true love is Steve Trevor and the two do have a fantastic blend of a working and romantic partnership on par, for me, with Ant-Man and the Wasp from the comics.

Outside of Steve though, Diana definitely has no love-loss for other men until the end of this movie. She sees right through Max Lord’s childish bravado at the start of the movie, she’s quick to repel any letchy guy throughout this movie, and it isn’t until Steve effectively gives her permission to move on at the end that she does...albeit seemingly with the man whose body Steve took over which seems a little backwards to me but I’ll allow it.

Wonder Woman also gets some fancy new upgrades in this movie. Not only do we have more functions of the Lasso of Truth with showing memories and broadcasting a voice, but also Diana gets her invisible jet through the means of a new power being able to make things invisible which she says is inherited from her father (Zeus) who used the power to hide Themyscira from the world.

The jet is a great precursor to what comes later because while flying in the jet, Diana talks about her longing to be able to fly which we all know as fans that she can do in pretty much every other incarnation yet all we’ve seen her do in the DCEU is leap long distances.

So the payoff when she actually flies after letting go of Steve finally was fantastic, honestly a fist-pumped the air and startled my dog because I got that excited. I do love how she still uses her lasso to propel herself and swing from lightning because it’s kind of like training wheels but seeing her fly at the very end unaided was everything.

I can’t decide how I feel about the ending, I do love how Diana saved the day in terms of using words over weapons, but it’s the fact she is pretty much looking directly at the camera while giving this big hope and love speech implying that she is talking to us as an audience as well as the world within the movie. It just seems very much a #BeKind movement which, again, is an important message particularly in today’s climate. But why does this need to be in a superhero movie?

Gal Gadot continues to be rather funny in the role as well. As with the first movie though, her humour is never really in jokes or in her actions but rather in serious dry whit. This kind of humour is right up my street. From her rejection of Max’s offer to buy her a TV to teaching Steve about the advancements in the 1980s from his time it was all rather well handled.

Diana simply continues to be a very warm and welcoming hero and Gal Gadot radiates these traits effortlessly. You feel bad whenever she feels bad, you want to cry whenever she cries, you get angry whenever she gets angry and you smile whenever she smiles. Gal Gadot continues to be as perfect in the role of Wonder Woman as Johnny Depp is for Jack Sparrow and Rosario Dawson is Ahsoka Tano.

Max Lord:

Okay so this is where things get complex because, to the best of my knowledge, this version of Max Lord is not the same as the one from the comics or any other media I’ve seen...I genuinely actually think they say Lord isn’t even his actual surname in this movie.

Alright, so this is where I’m slightly conflicted on this character. Maxwell Lord from the comics and Smallville where I first became aware of the character is a meta with the ability to control minds.

Becoming the Dream Stone doesn’t really give him the same power as effectively it makes him a genie but the power of the dream stone being equivalent to that of the Monkey’s Paw which grants wishes with consequences I guess is of similar elk.

Also, it’s not stated but shown that Max has some sort of degenerative condition before obtaining the stone but using the power of the stone seemingly sped up the condition because by the third act of the movie he looked like a shell of a man.

Obviously he knew of this which is why he wanted to utilize the stone’s power to a mass audience in order to grant their wishes and in return syphon their health and wealth but this is why I say that neither he nor Barbara were true villains because they were corrupted by the power the stone gave them.

I have a very weird stance of sympathetic villains, Cheetah is supposed to be a sympathetic villain to a degree but I’ve never really seen Max as such. In Smallville he is pretty much a henchman or underling whereas in Supergirl he was somewhat an anti-hero towards the end but mainly a villain.

I get the movie’s message of “Nothing good comes from hate” is in reference to the stone which was made by a trickster god and as such is inherently corrupt which makes its users also corrupt but not evil. But considering I originally didn’t think Max would be the main antagonist of the movie, when it was revealed he was I wanted to see some evil for evil’s sake behaviour rather than power corrupts twice over.

Also, in relation to his wishing power, the scene in which he tries to go through numerous clients to regain his health does play off a lot like Lucifer luring out people’s greatest desires.

Speaking of the wishes, two aspects of this I want to highlight. Firstly, when he reaches out to the world and grants everyone’s wishes, that one wish the diner lady utters about wanting the Irish to go back to where they come from...as someone of Irish heritage this is that wish I mentioned being from the U.K. was a surprising factor in for me...despite my Irish heritage being of Republic blood rather than Northern.

Secondly, I have now seen this movie twice and I do not know the reason for the weird satellite light that Max was in during the climax. I mean everything was basically going to hell and Max receiving the energy of the wishes and granting the wishes was basically giving him this protective funnel which Wonder Woman couldn’t penetrate, but was the light from the satellites and why did he need the satellites other to broadcast himself which he’s clearly already doing so what’s going on? I may not be making much sense but I genuinely don’t know what was going on at that point.

Pedro Pascal was still very good in this role, he comes across a lot better in the actual movie than he does in the trailers because the shots we see of him in the trailers I genuinely thought he was wearing a hairpiece, and he still might be but it looks more natural throughout the movie.

I know Pascal to be a rather funny individual in interviews and behind the scenes of other projects, but I’ve never seen him actually be funny in character...again I’m not sure how I feel about a comedic villain, but between this role and his role as Agent Whisky in Kingsman: The Golden Circle, he has the makings of a great villain actor.

There were times when Pascal played the character like Steve Carrell voice’s Gru in Despicable Me which again plays into the comedic villain angle but overall I felt his motives were clear and the way in which he went about achieving his goals was bold, ballsy and well executed.

I get why they added a son for Max in this movie and I am glad they stuck with the fact Pedro Pascal is Latino despite I don’t believe the character originally is but it added some diversity to the movie along with Gal Gadot’s Israeli accent. But yeah the point of the son was to personify what Max sacrificed in exchange for his wish because all he wants deep down is to be a success in his son’s eyes and feels this is how to go about it, but when it’s the choice between his son’s safety over the completion of his dynastic plan, similarly to Diana choosing to give up what she wants (Steve) for the greater good, he chooses his son.

Also I will say this. When Alastair tells Max that he already loves him because he’s his dad and strokes his face...Had I actually seen this movie when it came out in the U.K. it would have been two days before the finalé of The Mandalorian Season 2. But because I saw that finalé first and the very emotional scene between Din and Grogu...to see that pretty much replicated here felt slightly lacklustre.

Max doesn’t die at the end, no one dies in this entire movie (technically) so there is room for him to return unless they do another time jump. I’m not sure why he would return unless he goes full villain for villainy sake rather than corruption but I am actually happy he survived.

Having said that, one of Wonder Woman’s most famous moments from the comics is snapping the neck of Maxwell Lord. This could have easily been the climax of the movie but I feel thanks to Man of Steel giving this plot point to Superman when he snapped Zod’s neck, despite chronologically this coming first it would lose it’s momentum,

Cheetah:

I will admit I was not as disappointed with Barbara as I thought I would be going into this movie.

Having said that, I’m going to start with the negatives before talking about the positives of the character.

Firstly, both Barbara and later Cheetah are redheads, Kristen Wiig is naturally not but for the role of the character she could have easily worn a wig or died her hair for the role because not only is Barbara being portrayed as the ditzy blonde at the start of the movie a little redundant at this point, when she became Cheetah it did not look right with her as a blonde.

Now let’s talk about the actual Cheetah look. We’ve seen that one shot of her in the DC Fandome trailer but it was so dark and so quick that there was practically nothing to analyse, seeing her appear in the final 30 minutes of this movie...which is how long she actually appears as Cheetah...it’s both a lot to take in but also a lot to be disappointed in.

So Barbara’s turning point to villainy I feel isn’t when she beats up that man who attempted to assault her, but instead when she fears Diana and Steve are talking about killing Max to save the world because he absorbed the stone and the stone needs to be destroyed to save the world from carnage.

At this point she appears at the White House just as Diana has Max captive, dressed in this admittedly trendy Cheetah-print attire, incapacitates or possibly kills the White House security team and gives both Wonder Woman and Steve a whooping.

Firstly, the very fact there was no mention of the fact Barbara could tell Diana Prince and Wonder Woman were the same person just shows how daft the secret identities of some of these DC Heroes is.

But secondly, when Max retreats, Barbara hitches a ride with him and gets another wish for saving his life. Rather than wishing to be like Diana this time, she wishes to become an Apex Predator and is therefore granted the anger and vengeance of all the people Max grants wishes to via satellite.

This combination somehow turns her into a Cheetah as when we next see her she is Cheetah...a very badly CG’d undeveloped version of Cheetah but this is our Cheetah.

My version of Cheetah is from Injustice 2 and I know a bit of her backstory in the comics enough to know she was an archaeologist who was cursed to become the Cheetah and how in the DC Rebirth Wonder Woman, Barbara and Diana were friends but then when she became Cheetah, she felt betrayed by Diana and became her enemy that way.

That’s kind of similar here but it’s not a Cheetah curse that made her Cheetah, it’s a wish and a very literal interpretation of the wish “I want to become an Apex predator”...what’s an apex predator? A cheetah, get it?

Also as Cheetah, she just looks like Barbara styled her hair different and bought a Cheetah onesie. I wish she had gone full cheetah with the face, instead we get some very weird make-up which seems to wash off when they land in the water and some weird contouring or something to give Kristen Wiig a different nose...they could have continued the Cheetah fur on the face, given her cat-eyes, bigger fangs, something!

Again, Barbara’s villainy stems from power corruption, Barbara’s first wish was wanting to be like Diana and because of this got her powers so went a little bit power mad when she discovered she had super strength and speed.

Interestingly though, despite being electrocuted, Barbara does survive and when all the wishes are renounced she reverts back to a human...or does she?

Keep in mind that we never see Barbara take back her wish, in fact she is quite adamant in not doing that which leads Diana to making the hard call. The fact is it was by Max’s hand that Barbara finally became Cheetah so when he took back the wish of becoming the Dream Stone, that wish was rescinded…but Barbara’s original wish of becoming like Diana and thus gaining the powers of an Amazon demigoddess actually might still be in tact.

It’s implied that she is still pissed at Diana even after reverting back to human, so I do see her returning more than I do Max Lord but in her return I hope there’s a Cheetah redemption.

Steve Trevor:

I am really starting to be won around by Chris Pine as an actor. Originally in my list of “Hollywood Chris’” he was at the bottom because he isn’t Marvel, but now I think I actually would put him ahead of Pratt. Not only do I love him in this role here but also Rise of the Guardians which I’ve re-watched over the holidays.

So when it was announced that Pine would return as Steve Trevor in a movie set decades after the first movie which he died in, I like a lot of fans were curious as to how they were going to accomplish this. I mean we’re dealing with the DC variation of Greek Mythology and so I thought maybe Hades could be a factor, but then when the MacGuffin known officially I think as a Dream Stone became a factor with the trailers, the idea of him being resurrected as a wish by Diana was speculated which was kind of true but there was a catch in that he only came back to Diana but taking over another man’s body.

The movie I think beautifully brings Diana’s childhood lesson taught to her by Aunt Antiope about cheating full circle with the wish she makes to see Steve again. In her defence, Diana did not know what she was doing or that she was actually wishing on a wishing stone, but when she realises the impact that this seemingly innocent wish is having on the world, ultimately she has to wake up to the fact that this is a cheat because Steve is dead but Diana has brought him back in another man’s body...without his consent. Again, NOT DIANA’S FAULT, but she is pseudo-responsible and so can’t win because she cheated. This is a plot point I wish they had developed further or highlighted more because, having seen it twice now in the past 24 hours, that is probably my favourite message of the movie. Cheaters never prosper, not even Wonder Woman or Cheetah.

Steve being introduced to the 1980s was a great chance to reverse the fish out of water story Diana had in the first movie but while hers was one of both wonder and humour, Steve’s was mostly wonder and it was so endearing to see.

I loved how we didn’t take too long on Steve exploring the 80s, I liked how organically it was woven into the ongoing story. We did get that great small touring scene of Diana showing Steve the art and the breakdancing, but that he discovered pop tarts and his wonder in wanting to fly that jet rather than simply get on a plane to travel to Cairo, it was all very well done and that’s mostly on Chris Pine.

I did find the body-snatching a little bit creepy at first and at the very end. We didn’t meet the guy that Steve inhabited (for want of a better word) so I don’t feel strongly positively or negatively about him because we don’t know him, but when we meet him at the end when we somehow flashforward from July to Christmas, I did feel weird that not only did it seem that he and Diana were interested in each other but also the fact it wasn’t even mentioned that he couldn’t remember the time that Steve was in his body.

As I said before when talking about Diana, the blend of the romantic/working relationship between Diana and Steve is (sorry) #relationshipgoals for superhero couplings. I am aware that Steve Trevor isn’t a superhero but neither is Lois Lane but both civilian halves of these superhero couples are very potent in the comics and I have never understood this particular relationship until now.

Steve is as strong a part of the duo as Wonder Woman is because while he doesn’t have her Amazon physiology, he has that core inner strength that he had in the last movie which is why he sacrificed himself originally...now yes he pretty much did the exact same thing here but this was after he was pretty much carrying Diana through that D.C. street and seeing all the chaos that these wishes were causing...genuine anarchy....that Steve knew the only way Diana could regain her strength and save the world was for her to let go of him.

It was the most emotional scene of the movie for me and the only scene to almost make me cry. after crying at the Mandalorian finalé I am not crying at another show or film for a while but still, because not only could you tell both of them didn’t want this to happen but also as Diana pulls herself away from Steve not looking at her as the camera pans away from him you just hear his voice saying “I will always love you Diana, no matter where I am”. There’s never been a more potent portrayal of a superhero couple in my opinion in the movies. Tony and Pepper came close in Avengers: Endgame but this tops it for me.

Do I see Steve returning again? Yes, because I feel when you’re dealing with a property about gods and magic there is always potentiality for anything. I mean this movie is the definition of potentiality for anything because I think if it does succeed then they get away with a lot that other properties wouldn’t, but anyway yes I want Chris Pine to return to this role because I love him in it.

Amazons:

This is another scenario where the advertising lets the audience make up what is in store for us with announcements because announcing that Robin Wright is returning as Antiope after dying at the start of the last movie does raise suspicion.

The obvious solutions were resurrection, vision or flashback and for the majority of Amazon scenes save for one it was all flashbacks which I’m not going to grumble at because I enjoyed that opening scene.

I like how Themyscira basically has their own version of Ninja Warrior and that this scene was most likely set chronologically after Antiope agreed to train her. Which begs the question why her mother was so okay with it considering even as an adult Hippolyta has issues with Diana becoming a warrior but her contribution was so short I let that slide.

I’ve already mentioned how Antiope’s lesson of cheater’s never prosper was utilized so well in this movie but, similarly to Chris Pine, I just love any reason to bring back Robin Wright.

Aside from Hippolyta and Antiope though there was a third minor Amazon focused on in a couple of scenes in this movie, that is the ancient Amazon warrior Asteria.

Asteria was mentioned a couple of times, firstly by Hippolyta in reference to her statue as someone to strive to become and then by Diana to Steve when discussing the origins of her Golden Armor. During this discussion we see a flashback of Asteria in a crouched position being whaled on by Neanderthals protecting the Amazons as they retreated to Themyscira. We only see her eyes and at this point in the movie I thought Asteria was a throwaway character and so Connie Nielson was doing double-time as Hippolyta and Asteria.

However, this proves to be untrue as in the only post-credits scene we get we see Asteria walking down seemingly the same street we left Diana on in Washington, though they never clarify where it is. Furthermore we originally only see the back of her and she is dressed a lot like Diana with the same hair and clothing style. She even effortlessly stops a pillar or lamppost from crashing down.

But it isn’t Diana, at least not the one Gal Gadot is portraying...as it is revealed to be Asteria portrayed by Lynda Carter in a fabulous short, sweet and somewhat cheeky sequence where she states “I’ve been doing this for a long time” with a cheeky wink directly to the camera. I mean she basically echoes lines Diana says in the movie, but the fact it’s OG Wonder Woman and knowing we’re also getting Michael Keaton returning as Batman in the upcoming Flashpoint movie, it’s all just brilliant.

Obviously for fans of the Supergirl series, Lynda Carter had a recurring role on that as Earth-38′s President of the United States who was an alien and I have also seen her in Sky High, but looking at her here she just looks flawless.

Does this mean we’re going to see Asteria in Wonder Woman 3? I can’t wait to find out.

DCEU:

Speaking of the larger DCEU, this movie does absolutely nothing to connect itself to any other DC movie or property. We’re in 1984...Bruce Wayne is 12 so at this point has lost his parents, the original Black Canary is potentially crime-fighting, it’s the year Lex Luthor is born, Clark Kent is living in Smallville, Amanda Waller would just be starting out in the career that would see her become director of ARGUS. There are so many possibilities particularly as we haven’t had a movie set in the 80s within the DCEU before.

This is where DC continues to flounder where Marvel succeeds. They do not grab the opportunities for a cinematic universe expansion and instead keep everything contained. I don’t even think the events of Wonder Woman were mentioned outside of Steve’s death.

Particularly as we now have to wait until August for The Suicide Squad as the next DC movie (outside of the Snyder Cut), it would have been nice either if there would have been a tease to lead into that or even if something in this movie links to the Snyder Cut of Justice League.

Overall I rate this movie a 7/10, it’s a very enjoyable movie if you manage to follow all the threads the plot weaves into this movie, because they’re not seamless.

I’ve actually paid attention to the box office, reviews and CinemaScore for these movies since Birds of Prey and I have to say for being a focussed Wonder Woman movie it is underperforming from the first one with a B+ here as opposed to an A there, but considering Diana’s first outing was in Batman v Superman with a B score, I think the fact both Justice League and this have a B+ bodes well as it averages out with middle of the pack superhero movies, and that’s a good way to describe this movie.

It’s not better than the original, and there are many tangles within it, but it’s not a terrible movie. Again I’ve seen it twice in the last 24 hours and neither time got old for me.

So that’s my review of Wonder Woman 1984, what did you guys think? Post your comments and check out more DC Movie Reviews as well as other Movie Reviews and posts.

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adventure-hearts · 4 years ago

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LAST EVOLUTION: Kizuna — Thoughts and first impression.

So, I watched the thing and wrote down some quick thoughts.

OBVIOUSLY, MASSIVE SPOILERS BELOW.

So..........

I'm glad to say I liked it very much and it's a lot better than the novel!

(In fact, there were a few lines I thought were slightly different.)

Overall this is a very well-made movie, and a great addition to the Adventure canon. The animation, the music, and the voice acting were great. This must look fantastic on the big screen (Thanks TOEI, for making me watch it first via a crap version, and for forcing me to read the novelization in advance).

Story-wise, the first half is amazing. I loved the procedural / thriller aspect of it (“Is this a spy movie?” I WISH. Yamato is by far the best character in it, once again. The 02 kids were on point and USEFUL! The battle scenes were spectacularl-looking but, in my view, maybe a little excessive? The last big battle in particular seemed to drag a little, and the second half of the movie suffers a little because of that. But it’s an entertaining film throughout.

The implications of the "new twist" about the broken bonds are super interesting, and I can think of a million plot ideas and analyses this could inspire. I can understand why the idea didn’t please Kakudou, but I think it’s a cool addition to the mythos.

I haven’t had time to think about “Plot holes” or “inconsistencies” at this point, but I thought Kizuna was pretty respectful of previous canon. I’m going to have a fun time overanalyzing every frame of this eventually (International Chosen Cameos!!!)

Now for the not-so-good parts. Honestly, when I read the novel I was a bit disappointed for three main reasons, which the film kinda cemented:

1) The plot is unimaginative and even repetitive. It felt like threading old ground, most of the time. Sure, they’re not trying to reinvent the wheel here and, in some ways, this film seems like a course correction — a film that is meant to be as uncontroversial and safe as possible. In fact, in some parts Kizuna feels very warm and cuddly, and I can see this becoming a comfort film in the future.

Not getting into the discussion about who did it better, but the profile of the antagonist, the theme/emotional conflict of the film, and even the “loosing the digimon, possibly permanently” scenario were extremely reminiscing of the most recent installment. There’s a few too many references to the Hosoda films. This isn’t a bad thing, necessarily, and in getting a more conventional / familiar plot IS FINE, but I do think some new-ish elements could have made it a tiny bit fresher.

2) The majority of the characters are treated very poorly. Mimi, Jou, and especially Sora are completely pushed aside and ignored in a way that is almost infuriating. And yes, even the 02 kids felt like "not enough", precisely because they were so good and what we get is little and a bit superficial. Iori and Ken in particular also barely had lines!

Also — you drop a bomb like “the Digimon will essentially die on the kids” and yet, except for Menoa (who reacts badly) Taichi and Yamato (who react healthily), you don’t really show how it happens, how the other characters react, or even what they feel about it?

This universe has a “12 protagonists" issue, and absolutely no sequel so far has been able to address satisfactorily. But I can't help but to feel that the first short film, and possibly subsequent ones, should have fitted in the movie (it wasn’t even 90 minutes long!) and made it more balanced. Hopefully these next short films will mitigate this complaint to some extent.

3) The ending of the movie ends up feeling emotionally unsatisfying. Yeah, I understood what they were trying to do ("We gotta keep moving forward!" "Let the past die, kill it if you have to!” “isn't exactly subtle). But even the emotional punch of the final scenes doesn't land that well because we already know it's not definitive. Toy Story 3 this isn't! At the end of the film, more than commiserate with Taichi and Yamato (that scene was heartbreaking), I really wanted to know how they’re going to turn this around.

I'm just saying you can't finish a story on such an obvious cliffhanger and then not follow up on that. Hopefully, the message of the movie is also subliminally telling us "yeah, it's the end... for now. Don't lose hope, because we'll be back sometime before 2028". Kizuna doesn't really feel like a self-contained story: it feels like the first part of something, and it’s unsatisfying because it leaves a question that might never get answered. It begs for resolution — for a sequel!

These last few paragraphs run a risk of making this review sound negative, but trust me: I REALLY enjoyed this movie a lot. It's got everything you expect from an Adventure story: fun gags, throwbacks to the past, mythological/philosophical references, high stake fights and a very strong emotional core. It was a wonderful gift at this moment in time.

I'm going to enjoy rewatching it, and I would like nothing more than a sequel produced by the same team — if not LAST EVOLUTION 2, then maybe just tiny stories/shorts/drama CDs. Narrator!Takeru was right — this could be the story evolving in a new, fantastic direction. The people who made this movie had their heart in the right place.

But unlike most fans' expectations, this film is definitely not portrayed as THE END. That may be the worst, and simultaneously the best part of it.

PS: WHY IS YAMATO’S DIGIVICE PURPLE???

#digimon #DALEK #kizunaspoilers #kizuna spoilers

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soyouareandrewdobson · 5 years ago

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Sunny Sundays: Scoob

So as not to be too negative by always focusing on dumb webartists and their lack of taste in certain media or decent opinions, I decided that at least once a week I also want to talk about something more positive on my tumblr. Something about animation to enjoy, instead of using it as a bullet point for a sex fetish disguised as social awareness unlike someone else.

As such, lets talk about a little movie that came out this week on demand about a franchise that had goten rebooted more times than a certain timelord. At least that is what it feels like.

Ladies and Gentlemen: Scoob!

Scoob is the recent major entry into the Scooby Doo franchise and weirdly enough, though there is a ton of animated movies that came out for TV and on DVD, the the first animated feature of the franchise to actually be released in theaters. ... or rather it would be, if we didn’t live in a Stephen King novel, forcing Warner to release it on the internet for demand.

Now the Scooby Doo franchise is as of now pretty damn old. starting back in 1969 and having multiple incarnations of it over the years with the last succesfull one being the highly recommended “Mystery Incorporated”, which featured of all things the group not only dealing with their typical guys in masks each week, but also an ancient conspiracy involving a cosmic terror from another dimension, cameos of other famous Hanna Barbera characters and even good old Harlan Ellison having a cameo to. But some people with no idea how a good story trumps over shipping only know the show as having Velma and a girl that smells of hotdogs being shipped. If you do not belong to that group of people, I highly recommend you to watch it because it is really good. And certainly more entertaining than the shows that followed next, aka “Scooby Doo Go” and “Here is a show all about cameos being more obvious than in the old days”.

Anyway, what I try to say is, Scooby Doo despite being rather old and having been both mocked and appreciated over the years, is still very popular and can with the right amount of care and silly fun be at the very least an entertaining ride. So did this movie deliver on that, or did it become as disappointing as “Return to Zombie Island”?

I will try not to spoil too much in this “overview” about the movie, but here is basically the deal: For starters, it is a Scooby Doo movie that misses one itsy bitsy major thing that actually makes a Scooby Doo story out on average. A mystery.

See, the movie first begins with a semi origin story for Scooby and the gang, which honestly is pretty damn adorable to watch. Shaggy meeting a stray Scooby as a pup, both becoming friends, meeting at Halloween Fred, Daphne and Velma for the first time and actually solving their very first mystery, all in the span of like 10 minutes? It is great and I would love to see an animated series about those alone. You know, a reboot of “A Pup named Scooby Doo”. Unfortunately, that is as far as we get with a “classic” Scooby Doo story as after the introduction, Simon Cowell essentially breaks the group apart and it becomes a Marvel superhero movie inspired flick.

Nope, I am not. Which btw, is actually not meant as a criticism.

Yeah see, Mystery Inc wants to be a more serious enterprise and so Simon Cowell has been brought on board to finance them, but only of Shaggy and Scooby leave. Which they do. After that dated cameo of a celebrity (Which actually feels rather in tone with the legacy of the franchise, if you think about the “good old days”) Shaggy and Scooby find themselves shortly thereafter being hunted by robots, only to be rescued by another famous Hannah Barbara character: The Blue Falcon and his trusty sidekick Dynomutt! Or rather Mark Wahlberg having to learn how to be a decent hero and the second best character in the entire movie.

The original Blue Falcon has retired and this Blue Falcon is the son of the original one who still has to learn how to be a smart hero instead of trying to be an “impressive” hero (in other words, Booster Gold’s showman aspects played up to 11) while Dynomutt has certianly become a bit of a deadpan snarker over the years.

Anywa,y they have come to help Shaggy and Scooby, who are hunted by Dick Dastardly of Wacky Racers fame, who is after Scooby for some nefarious reason, as well as the heads of demon guard dog Cerberus, which if assembled will open the Gates of Hell. As such Shaggy, Scooby and the Blue Falcon group have to stop Dastardly and save the world, while the rest of the team tries to find out what happened to them and in doing so gets involved into the entire adventure too. An adventure field to the brim with references and major on screen cameos by Hanna Barbera characters, to the point the entire thing could also just be called “Hanna Barbera Avengers assemble”.

This movie... it is weird but in some of the best ways possible. To get it out of the way, I do not think it is a very good kids movie storywise. As in, on one hand it does not have any despicable messages to it and there is actually a surprisingly high level of quality to it, on the other hand, it is not as if this movie has become the Hanna Barbera equivalent of Wall-E, Onward, How to train your Dragon or some Miyazaki flick. It is basically a Hanna Barbera crossover fanfiction as an animated feature, that reimagines the characters design wise slightly to look like ore accesable toys for kids to sell nowadays, than the orignal designs from the 70s and 80s. The plot as said abandons the mystery aspect completely for a saving the world from a comic book supervillain story, even with obligatory hole in the sky during the climax (seriously, when does Hollywood realize what kind of clichee it is) , third act break up between Scooby and Shaggy and out of nowhere “sacrifice” at the end. If you want more details on that, I recommend watching the movie or reading up on a 4chan post that goes around the net from a couple of months ago, when someone leaked the movie back then. Turns out that not everything on /co/ is garbage made up by others. Anyway, the plot is just not what you would expect from Scooby Doo. Which says a lot considering their direct to DVD features within the last years included also crossovers with the WWE and KISS. So you would expect it could not get weirder. But this movie kinda does, while also just having storystructure wise clichees to it you have seen a million times already in both better and worse features. And yet, if you like Hanna Barbera cartoons in general, I think you can find something in that movie. Not necessarily a good story from start to end, but just a entertaining Hanna Barbera cartoon, that is not quite as “dumb” as its source material but also does not try to be ultra serious and embraces the sort of humor it came from. If that however is not enough for you, and you want some very very deep story about social issues in animated form... well, I either suggest watching something not done by Disney you animation snob.

From a technical level now, I would say the movie is a bit more complicated to “review”. The voice acting is not horrible, but there are moments where the fact they got not the original cast to do the voices and instead give us celebrities like Zac Efron, is obvious. Some dialogues just don’t work as well as they should, but no one does a completely horrible job. Animation wise...

Well, it is a movie that does actually a good job getting the Hannah Barbera designs into a decent computer animated shape for the 21th century. It really feels like a Hannah Barbara cartoon on the screen. Unfortunately, when it comes to background characters....

...it feels only slightly above Miraculous Ladybug levels in my opinion. The animation is not all over the place, but you can see that it was not Pixar working on it. Which actually sorta brings up another “problem” with the movie. The problem being that as a whole it does not quite feel like it is a movie that belongs on the big screen. It is an entertaining animated movie, don’t get me wrong. But if I may be “snobish” for a moment, I think in terms of presentation and story it just doesn’t quite reach okay movie theater flick level. It is above what we should get from a made for TV or DVD production but just doesn’t reach the next level by a few inches. Which is sad, cause I think there was actually still a lot of effort put into it and a certain love of the source material. Or rather source materials, seeing how it is not just Scooby Doo here. And yet, despite its obvious flaws, including some really dated humor that made my eyes roll but is not breaking the movie for me... I recommend it. If you like Scooby Doo as a whole, I think you may like this one a lot. I just think that 20$ on demand is way too much. An animated serie sin that style however would suffice a lot Hope that piece of an opinion was helpful and that if you decide to watch it, you will have as much fun as I had (or even more) . And please don’t let me be the only one on this planet who thinks that of all the characters in it, Dick Dastardly is actually one, if not the most entertaining one. Cause heck, I liked him. And I never had imagined to see a heartfelt scene with him as a central character.

#scooby doo #scoob movie #scoob spoilers #scoob #adobsonart #adobsonartworks #western animation #animation #hanna barbera #blue falcon #dynomutt #dick dastardly #movie

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surveys-at-your-service · 4 years ago

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Survey #317

i’m tired as a motherfucker and don’t feel like thinking up some lyrics, so here, jus have the survey.

Have you volunteered in the past 6 months? No. French fries or onion rings? French fries. I don't like onion rings. Do you suffer from anxiety? Very badly. Favorite healthy snack? "Apples and peanut butter are one of them." <<<< Same, actually. Good shit. Favorite Disney movie? Forever and always The Lion King. If you see a bee in your house.. are you going to kill it? I hate to say it, but I'm killing it. Do you normally take a shower in the morning or at night? Morning. Do you have a cat? Yeah. What is your favorite animal? It will always be meerkats. Always. Do you know what time you were born? 10:30 AM, I believe. Do you like McDonalds? I'm gonna be real: I've never understood the McDonald's hate. I enjoy it perfectly fine. I mean it's certainly not gourmet, but I'll choose it over other fast food places sometimes. It's cheap and decent food, imo. What's your favorite flower? Orchids. Have you thought about joining the military? FUCK no. Who is the person that has impacted your life the most? Given my PTSD, I think it's pretty obviously Jason. Have you ever had a pet fish? Yeah, but not a lot. I never enjoyed them much. Have you ever wanted to be on a game show? Not seriously, no. I wouldn't want to be on television. Have you ever vaped? Nah. Who was the last person to give you a hug? Either my niece or nephew. Have you ever been on TV? I don't think so, no. What's your favorite store in the mall? Hot Topic, ugggghhhhh take me there. Has anyone ever told you that you have an accent? Yeah, especially when I was younger when I definitely did have a clear Southern accent. Do you have any piercings? Yeah, six. I have been DYING for a new one lately... How did your parents meet? Work. What was your first word? "Dada." Do you eat more healthy food or junk food? Somewhere in the middle, I'd say. What do you spend too much money on? When it's my own money, tattoos. I think I'll be perfectly capable of doing it, but when I'm employed, I'm going to have to watch how much I invest into those. What is a disturbing episode of an otherwise non-disturbing show? What is a disturbing show (or one you would describe as one) is enjoyable to you? Meeeh I don't watch enough for this. What is the most memorable song in a movie? How about a show? Oh wow, I dunno. "Circle of Life" from TLK is a beauty, as is "Strangers Like Me" from Tarzan. There really are a lot. As for shows, "Carry On My Wayward Son" from Supernatural will immediately get fans screaming the lyrics, haha. However, I don't know if that song properly counts since it wasn't written just for the show, but whatever. What is something you’re grateful for that humans have made/have continued to make exist? What about something that you wish that humans didn’t destroy? The Internet, whew. I wish humans would stop destroying the fucking environment. It's heartbreaking how many woods are wiped away here for construction, only to never be built on... While evil men are commonly talked about, what woman would you consider the most evil? I don't know, but it would probably be a rapist or pedophile. Those are probably the people I abhor most. Do you believe children can be evil? If so, what child from history do you believe to have been the most evil? I don't really think children are born evil, no. I've never heard of a diabolical baby or anything. I think the environment they are raised in molds them as they age. I don't know about the last question. Name one way that music can be bad for humans. It can be depressing sometimes, actually dragging your mood down, especially if you already feel low. What has been one of the most blatant advertising in a movie, show, or music video? Some of these questions are hard man, idfk lol. What book have you read/listened to that “messed you up” (or made you have a lot of negative feelings afterward)? Johnny Got His Gun left me feeling so spiteful towards and disappointed in the world. It definitely made me feel down for a while. If you have a pet, what is the best thing that you have for them (either a toy, a highly rated food, etc)? If you don’t have one but would like one, have you thought about what you would get your pet? We definitely don't have the money for "high quality" stuff. What works, works. Did you ever know anyone who was (previously) a part of a cult? What cult? Were you ever a part of one? No. What is something that is legal right now that really shouldn’t be? I'm stealing the previous person's answer by saying fireworks. They have a horrible effect on animals and PTSD victims and is just litter and a fire hazard. What is a movie you consider successful/good that did not have high reviews? I'm not educated enough on movie rankings. When you met the person you now like, what happened? We hugged and cried a bit lmao. Did you realize anything today? No. What do you want to do today? It'd be nice to get off my ass and get Emerson's birthday pictures into Lightroom so Ashley can finally have them... Can you honestly say you’d risk your life for someone else? I know with certainty I would for some people. Could you forgive a boyfriend or friend who physically hurt you? Ha, nope, byyyyeee~ What’s the cutest thing someone’s ever done for you? Ugh... So one night when I was lying down to go to bed but also texting Jason, I was being playful and joked for him to sing me to sleep. He sent me a video for "The Mortician's Daughter" by Black Veil Brides (one of his favorite bands) and just pasted the lyrics, and I thought it was the cutest fucking thing ever. I went to bed listening to it and just smiling. It's why I just don't listen to it anymore. I shouldn't have even talked about it, soooo next question. What are the top five places you wish you could go before you die? Ummm South Africa, Yellowstone National Park, Germany, Alaska, and the Bahamas, maybe. How many tattoos would you like to have? I'm gonna be a fuckin mural. I want tats pretty much everywhere. What question do you hate to answer? "What do you like to do for fun?" What's your favourite animated or cartoon program? Fullmetal Alchemist. What do you think the greatest invention has been? Electricity. What's your favourite movie quote? I dunno, I don't really have one. Do you prefer digital or analogue clocks? Analogue clocks are way more elegant and can be beautifully decorated. Who is your favorite foreign singer/musician? Do you translate his or her lyrics? If you exclude English-speaking foreign bands, like from the UK, Rammstein for sure. I can translate some of them. Say something in a foreign language? "Liebe" means "love" in German. What is a weather-type that you like that not many others do? Snow, for sure. I've never understood the "ew, snow" type of people. It's so pretty. Granted, it's rare here, so it's more of a treat down here, but still. Who do you know personally that has a nice singing voice? Sara has a beautiful voice. What was the last word you learned? I have no clue, given how bad my memory is becoming... It's hard for me to learn anything nowadays, because it doesn't stick. What is your favorite culture? (that you find most interesting): I'll be honest, I'm not very well-informed on foreign cultures. Due to taking so many classes though, I do find German culture to be quite appealing. They are very serious about honesty (for example, telling someone you're okay when you're not is frowned upon in small talk, even), as well as manners. I would love to experience their lifestyle. Have you ever watched anime porn? I've never watched porn to begin with. If you got paid $3 million to smoke meth one time would you do it? Nope. I'm not risking addiction or death. Are ladybugs cute? Yesssss. Will you leave the house without fragrance on? Yeah, I usually do. Do you make good money doing what you do? I'm unemployed. I've only ever worked minimum wage jobs. What is your favorite fruit? Strawberries, yum. And kiwi. What do you think of horses? I love them! Are you doing something with your life that matters? Ugh, I don't feel like it. Do you like gravy on your mashed potatoes? I hate gravy. What is the dirtiest rap song you have ever heard? Nicole played "WAP" once when I was in the car and I wanted to die. What about a dirty song in any other genre? "Bitches" by Hollywood Undead MIGHT be rap, but idk? What even is their genre???? But anyway, as much as I love the song, it's dirty as shit. What is a genre of music you simply can't stand? Rap, generally. What is, in your opinion, the best way of dealing with a break up? Lots and lots of self-care and focusing on loving yourself and realizing your worth lies in yourself and not another person. What flavor of Doritos do you like best? Cool Ranch, of course. Would you ever go to a comedy club? Yeah, sure. Why is it that photography is becoming a trend? Because it's art, and people enjoy art???????? What is the funniest movie you have ever seen? White Chicks gets me way harder than it should lmao. Would you ever consider dating someone who lived across the country? I guess, so long it was the plan that we'd eventually move in together, and effort was being made to achieve that once we got pretty serious. Do you have a tattoo? If you do, describe the pain you went through when getting it done. Well, I have six, so I'll just talk about my first one, which was on my wrist. It really isn't bad, especially once you've adjusted to the pain. I think the best metaphor would be that it's like lightly pinching a cat scratch. Outlining is the worst part, imo. What is your favorite bookstore? I don't have one. Who was the last person to tell you that you were cute? I have no idea. When was the last time you had a fever? How high did it go? Oh, I couldn't tell you. Those are very rare for me. How many times do you think that you’ve truly been in love before? With who? Twice, with Jason and Sara. Do you prefer French kissing, or regular kissing more, and why? I mean, this depends on the mood as well as how serious we are. Have you ever been married before? How many times? No. Who do you know that gives the best hugs? Summer has always been a big, strong hugger like I am. Have you ever dated someone of the same gender before? Yeah. Who do you consider to be your hero? My mom. Who is your best friend? Tell us about them. Sara. She's a very caring, strong, creative, just overall amazing person who stands firmly for what she feels is right, and we can't forget about her incredible loyalty, nor her absolute adoration for animals, reptiles especially. How much did your car cost? I don't have my own car. What is the last picture you received on your phone of? Sara sent me a photo of Martha, her ball python. Do you have any friends that actually model? No. Do you keep condoms in your room? No, considering I have no reason to. Do you follow any special diet? (dairy free, vegetarian, gluten free etc.) No, but I desperately want to return to being vegetarian. Vegan would be even better, but I know I'm absolutely not capable of that. What is an appliance you don’t have, but would love to have? uhhhhh Which keys on your keyboard are worn out the most? My "a," "s," and "d" from gaming. If you could be any supervillain, which would you be? Ha, I could probably pull off Harley Quinn pretty easily. Though "super"villain sounds a bit strong for her. What’s the most historic thing that has happened in your lifetime? Either Covid or 9/11, probably. What’s the scariest non-horror movie? I personally think the idea behind Johnny Got His Gun is fucking terrifying. What’s the most amazing true story you’ve heard? More beautiful than "amazing," but whatever. I can't think of anything else. Jason's mother actually left his father to go back home to New York when he cheated on her, but he followed her all the way there, and they wound up reconciling and were very happily married since. They were a spectacular couple, and I miss them a lot. What brand are you most loyal to? I have no idea. It's hard to be loyal to any when you're not the one buying products. Where are you not welcome anymore? Well, speaking of him, probably Jason's house, haha... I feel that if I just showed up there, his parents would honestly be super happy to see me and want to catch up, but Jason, not so much. I doubt Colleen would welcome me into her house, either. What’s the most recent show you’ve binge-watched? Avatar: The Last Airbender w/ Sara. What’s a common experience for many people that you’ve never experienced? Just... adult stuff. Paying bills. Having a stable job. Passing their driver's test. What are some misconceptions about your hobby? We'll use forum roleplay here, in which case I know a very common misconception is that it's sexual in nature and is a kink. It's never been that for me. It's about building unique, complex characters in a vast universe of your creativity, meshing with other's. It's a beautiful thing to me. What’s the dumbest thing someone has argued with you about? Oh, I'm sure something with Mom... because she is absolutely never wrong. What’s the longest rabbit hole you’ve been down? Conspiracy theories on YouTube, aha... What odd smell do you really enjoy? I really enjoy the smell of lilacs, though I know people who think they smell too strong and/or just stink. If you had a HUD that showed three stats about any person you looked at, what three stats would you want it to show? Hm, interesting question. Maybe approachability, moral alignment, and mood. What is your favorite flavor of pop tart? I really like the chocolate sundae ones. Gum? I really like fruit-flavored gums, especially watermelon or strawberry. Last song you sang along to? I sang a bit to "Second Chance" by Shinedown. Are you fascinated by rivers? Yeah, sure. Streams, more specifically, because you can see the bottom and walk more safely in them. I love exploring those. Do you live near a volcano? No, and I plan on keeping it that way, haha. How big is the screen on your digital camera? I dunno, the normal size for a Canon? Do you find train whistles comforting? No. What bird is the cutest? Oh, that's so hard. I love the pastel-colored ones, and hummingbirds are like, universally cute. Are you scared to look at your own organs on x-ray or ultrasound? No, that's actually really cool. Do big eyes freak you out? On people? Generally, no. I tend to find them cute, actually, especially on girls, but I've definitely seen people with big eyes that instead look kinda creepy. Have you ever walked on a frozen lake/river? Hm, I'm actually not sure. I don't believe so, though. Have you ever held a real sword? No. Have you ever seen a tree over 100 years old? Uh, realistically, probably? That's not that old in the grand scheme of trees, is it? Do you feel uncomfortable at fancy restaurants? I can sometimes, yes. I feel very out-of-place.

#survey #surveys #questions

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agentnico · 4 years ago

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Eurovision Song Contest: The Story of Fire Saga (2020) Review

If you haven’t yet came about this gem, look up the Russian submission for the cancelled Eurovision 2020. The group is called Little Big. You can thank me later.

Plot: When aspiring musicians Lars and Sigrit are given the opportunity to represent their country Iceland at the world's biggest song competition, they finally have a chance to prove that any dream worth having is a dream worth fighting for.

I do enjoy Will Ferrell’s comedy. He has one funny bone, I tell ya that much! Obviously he’s great in all the Adam McKay films such as Anchorman, Talladega Nights and Step Brothers, all of which are endlessly quotable, and I also enjoy his lesser known outings such as Casa de mi Padre and The Campaign (the latter being a scarily realistic portrayal of the bonkers nature of American politics for a stupid irreverent comedy), however recently he’s definitely exhibited a dip in quality, especially with Holmes & Watson. That movie...........that movie.................that......movie.....can I even call it a movie? I still have no idea how in the hell that thing got green-lit? Honestly, who at Sony Pictures picked up the script and thought “hey, look at this, what a funny and original take on the classic Conan Doyle stories, this is a farcical revolution, a slapstick masterpiece, a fantastical example of burlesque interpretation.....let’s make it!!” Whoever this spherical dumbass of a producer was, he’s an idiot who should question his choices more as Holmes & Watson is diabolically bad! It’s excruciatingly unfunny! There’s a gag involving Holmes wearing a Trump-supporting ‘Make America Great Again’ hat....speaks for itself really. The movie is poop! But enough about negatives, let’s set our eyes upon Netflix’s new comedy Eurovision Song Contest: The Story of Fire Saga about, you guessed it, the Eurovision Song Contest! Ironically, the movie is brought to us by the US, even though America has never partook in the real Eurovision contest, nor do many American citizens even know what Eurovision is, which is probably why film critics have been so negative towards this movie, as they don’t really know what Eurovision is all about. Yes, it’s about the music and the competition, but it’s also about the over-the-top set pieces, flamboyant costumes and general acts of weirdness that make Eurovision so enjoyable to watch. But does the new Netflix spoof recapture the magic?

The movie’s biggest negative is that for a comedy it’s not that funny. There are some solid jokes for sure, but there a lot more ones that fall flat than ones that hit. It seems that due to the movie being made in conjunction with Eurovision partners, the writing team avoided to take any true risks, so as to not offend anyone. The Eurovision contest has a lot within it to make fun at to be honest, and this movie avoids that in favour of typical stupid debauchery Ferrell is known for. Even the inclusion of Graham Norton, who actually commentates on Eurovision in real life is severely toned down, and his insults are nowhere as offensive and sarcastic as in real life. And yes, at first that may seem to come off as me saying that this film is a total pile of garbage that should be buried deep at the bottom of the dumpster hidden beneath various human excrement right next to a bunch of DVD copies of Holmes & Watson (grrrrrr!), but let me hit you back with a but! Yes, there’s always a but! No, I’m not referring to one’s backside, for starters that’s a different spelling so learn your English you uneducated son of a bee, please and thank you! Anyway, I digress, the but is that even though it lacks the promised comedic punch, the movie more than makes up with it’s element of romance and, more importantly its heartwarming feel-good nature. Especially in these very strange and confusing times that we find ourselves living in, one does not need a masterpiece in film-making......though I am very much still looking forward to Christopher Nolan’s Tenet...whenever that release date finally comes to fruition. But sometimes a fairly simple film with an abundance of cliches (there’s an obligatory ABBA reference) and terrible Icelandic accents but filled with good cheerfully innocent nature is enough to please one’s mind. And you can call me sentimental at my old age (I’m turning 23 in under a week so happy birthday to me!), but I’m not going to lie, I really dug this movie. I had a good time! As I said, it’s no masterpiece, far from it actually, but it is just so pleasing, joyful and upbeat to watch!

Interestingly enough, a few films came to my mind whilst I watched The Story of Fire Saga. There’s the obvious reference to Walk Hard: The Dewey Cox Story, another satirical film that parodies the music industry, only there the comedy worked better for me. Then also the movie has a surprisingly catchy soundtrack, with a lot of the song choices feeling like they came out straight from The Greatest Showman. There’s that element of oomph to each tune that really makes it pop! Not going to lie, I’ve been listening to the soundtrack on repeat ever since I’ve watched the movie! Also there’s a certain scene that’s a straight up knock off of the Riff-Off scene from Pitch Perfect. Then the more surprising connection is actually last year’s film Yesterday, where a man wakes up one day and he’s the only one who remembers The Beatles and their songs. The connecting thread-line is that in that movie too there is a woman who is unabashedly in love for the main guy, but he doesn’t notice it as he’s so focused on his music dream. I’ll be the first to say I did not like Yesterday. It was very disappointing in light of the calibre of talent that was involved, with Danny Boyle directing and Richard Curtis penning the script. The romantic side of that movie came as a bit of a distraction that got in the way of the potential of the main story-line involving a world without The Beatles. However in Eurovision Song Contest: The Story of Fire Saga that romantic thread is actually what holds the whole thing together so well. This is easily the most romantic movie of this year, and I know, I’m surprised to say so myself, seeing as this is a Will Ferrell motion picture!

Speaking of Will Ferrell, he’s decent in the movie, if you like Will Ferrell, as he does his usual shtick, though looking unrecognisable due to the ridiculous wig. However it seems Ferrell himself realises his co-stars bring more to the table in terms of acting compared to him, as he devotes a lot of scenes to Rachel McAdams and Dan Stevens. Rachel McAdams is adorable in this movie, with such a pure and baby-like personality, and it was constantly a pleasure seeing her light up the screen. Though it is Dan Stevens who steals the show as an antagonist that is surprisingly not as villainous as first anticipated, and turns out to be a cute puppy-dog eyed Russian lion! Also, that hair style suits him well.......maybe too well. Appearances from Demi Lovato and Pierce Brosnan are welcome too, though heavily under-used. Speaking of the latter, Eurovision Song Contest: The Story of Fire Saga and the Mamma Mia! films are now part of the Pierce-Brosnan-has-a-dead-wife-and-ABBA-is-heavily-involved-somehow cinematic universe.

As a whole Eurovision Song Contest: The Story of Fire Saga is nothing groundbreaking, but a truly good time, with a soundtrack filled with low-key bangers, a visual feast to the eyes due to showcasing the gorgeous visages of the Icelandic landscapes, and is easily Will Ferrell’s best film in years! Especially with that surprisingly emotional finale. Yes, this movie is ridiculously stupid, though it’s more ridiculous how emotionally hard-hitting the ending is. The song “Husavik” does for this movie what “Shallow” did for A Star Is Born. So I say go watch this film and embrace its warm comforting feels. Perfect for a date night, me and my girlfriend can attest to that!

Overall score: 6/10

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tidustargaryen · 4 years ago

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The Last of Us Part II - A unique experience you can never get rid of (My interpretation of the story - Full of spoilers!!!)

I made some screens of the game, but I messed up while forgetting to remove the black frame of options from photo mode. I was so proud of the screens! ^^ Sorry. 🙇

Wow...Wow...Wow... 🤩🤩

I couldn't not talk about this game, and what it felt like to play it.I went through all the emotions, I smiled, I cried, I screamed, I laughed, I was scared, I was anxious, I sang, I felt anger, even hatred, but also compassion, pity, empathy and the desire to forgive and forget. They broke my heart, and then filled it with rainbows. It was really the roller coaster of emotions. That's what I wanted when I bought this game. I wanted to feel things, a whole lot of things. I wanted to smile, I wanted to laugh, but I also wanted to cry. Because crying is not necessarily negative. It's a human emotion that also does good things.

I love Red Dead Redemption 2, I played it a lot, but I didn’t have the need to put words on my feelings. And especially not to give it such praise, that is to say how much The Last of Us Part II affected me. I also find it hard to describe my thoughts, my feelings in another language, and the review took me time and effort. There will surely be plenty of mistakes, but I love this game too much not to grant it the honor it deserves.

The job is successful, it's more than successful, this game has affected me deeply, in a positive way. When I put the controller down at the end of the game, wow... Just wow... That's all i could think of. And I must confess, I don't understand the negative feedback. I understand of course, that you can dislike a scenario, I myself dislike some movies, we like, we dislike, for different reasons, it's our most legitimate right. But hatred for a game? Putting a zero grade on it? It's not objective. The gameplay is excellent, much better than the first one, the immersion is incredible, the visual and sound atmosphere... damn! The motion capture is unmatched. More weapons, more actions, more everything.The graphics, the dialogues, the music! Even if the scenario is not good for you, you have to admit that the rest is almost perfect... So it's impossible to put 0 to this game. It may not please you, it's legitimate, but when I don't like something, I leave it, I don't spend days talking about it, in a bad way. I would also add that reading the leaks is one thing, playing the game, living the story with the controller in hand is something else. Maybe you're missing out on something huge, it's your choice.

If I say that, it's above all because I would really like a third opus, I want other stories with Ellie. I liked her in the first one, but I got so attached to her in the second part. And I like the world of the Last of Us, I got attached to the Ellie/Dina relationship as well, and I'll come back to that in the development I'm going to do on the characters right after.

All that to say, for anyone who didn't like The Last of Us Part II, your life is not going to change whether or not there's a part III, but I, and other players, would really like a sequel. But I'm not sure there's going to be one after this outpouring of hatred. So good for you, so bad for us, I guess. But I'm not selfish.

I've also seen some very positive comments, a lot of “masterpieces” and objective opinions, full of very good reviews from players who have had the same experience as me. I've played a lot of games that I liked, very few of them made an impression on me like The Last of Us Part II, none of them made an impression on me like The Last of Us Part II in fact, thank you Naughty Dog. Really, thank you, because, and this is my personal opinion, this sequel is much better than the first opus. Yes, that's what I think, and I had heard and seen a lot of press reviews that said it was better, I couldn't believe it. And yet, since I finished the game, I can't stop thinking about it, I can't stop rewriting the story, imagining a sequel, and that's what I wanted this game to do, to touch me emotionally, quite simply. This game haunts me since I press “start”. Well done, I admit.

Spoilers, ahead.

They didn't lie on this, I knew what game I was buying. A violent game, which deals with difficult subject, revenge, hate, the worst human emotions. It's hard for the players to understand the choices they made in the script, but it's also because it's hard to imagine living in a world like The Last of Us. Anyone can die at any time. And the survival instinct brings out the worst in humans. In their world, we too would become violent, hateful, we would do anything to survive. We will do the same things as Abby, Ellie, Joel and everyone else. Yes, it would be so much simpler, and more productive, to cooperate, to be united, this is the solution, the only one. Unfortunately, humans do the contrary, because the fear of the other, of the unknown, makes one strike before being struck. Already, in our current world, people find it very difficult to show solidarity, there is solidarity, but how many there are out of billions ?? They said it would take an open mind to enjoy the game, and understand the choices of characters. And they were right.

The game could have dealt with the story of a father and his adopted daughter, wanting to survive in a cruel world full of infected people who want to devour you, but who are not the worst enemies. It would have shown these characters succeeding and living a happy life in the town of Jackson... and it could have been believable, why not, with a big stroke of luck... Because honestly, in a world like this, where anybody can die at any time, realism is very important. The worst thing that could have happened to this game is not hate, it's indifference, and the game does not leave indifferent, far from it. People still haven't understood that to show disappointment in a game, a movie, a series, or whatever, hatred is not the solution, but indifference. Hatred proves that you are interested enough in the subject to talk about it a lot. This is indifference, the opposite of love.

Because, yes, in this world, you can die very cruelly, horribly, just like Joel... It's hard, it hurts, but it's realistic. When I first played the first opus, at the end I said to myself "If there's a sequel to this game, Joel will pay harshly for the consequences of his decision..." Because Joel's choice was selfish, it was very human, but it was very selfish. I love Ellie so much that I'm thrilled, but he saved a little girl that he cared so much about, a love that he didn't think he'd feel since he lost his little girl. But tell me, how many other little girls has he sacrificed in the process? How many people has he forced to live in such a terrible world? This vaccine could have saved them all. It’s unthinkable to me that the surviving Fireflies wouldn't want revenge. And it's even more natural to want revenge on the murderer of your father.

Yeah, I wish Joel would've survived, or not died so cruelly, especially not in front of Ellie. But Joel is paying the consequences for his choice. It's hard to put yourself in that position, but I don't think I would have made the same choice Joel did. And maybe, when you think about it, was it better for Ellie to die saving the world, rather than go through all that she had to go through next ?

The Last of Us part II, it's clearly not a game where everything is white or black, the development studio took a big risk, making us play inside the head of the person we're supposed to hate, the one who took Ellie's dearest love. Most games make us play nice people, who fight against the bad guys, but here, the bad guys aren't always bad, they can do good deeds, and bad ones, just like Ellie. These shades of grey in each character are very interesting to study, the story becomes more complex, more captivating. Joel wasn't a "good guy" either, he did a lot of bad things before he crossed Ellie's path, he ambushed people to kill them and steal from them... That doesn't stop us from loving him, it's also true for Abby and her companions.

That's what I love about this game, the nuances. The questioning of the character choices, and the morality that's built into it. And for me, this game is clearly an essay about what makes us feel and what drives us to hatred and revenge, and what we get out of it... Nothing, as we can see with my poor girl Ellie. She brutally loses Joel and in her quest for revenge, loses everything else.

There's clearly no way in hell she's going back to Jackson, she's leaving, for good, and alone.Besides, we saw her head toward the door at the back, not the one on the side, which leads to Jackson. And when she walks with JJ, towards this door, she tells him that only bad things are behind this door. No, unfortunately, Ellie does not return to Jackson, and that is understandable. This quest for revenge has affected her deeply. For me, it's like a stain on her soul. Is it legitimate for her to want revenge? I think it is. Should she give in to hatred and revenge? Of course, in this story, for Ellie, the answer is no. "I'm gonna find, and I'm gonna kill every last one of them," I think she could've added, "No matter what it costs me." Her future happiness. Neil Druckmann brought up a possible part III, and perhaps this part could imply a redemption from Ellie. She tells JJ that behind this door there are only bad things, maybe in the end, she goes to these bad things, to try to destroy as much as possible. And to finally be able to do what Joel stealed from her, and finally answer this question of why she is immunizing, why her ? To save people.

Ellie can't move on. She has a lot of nightmares, she's been through a trauma and can't get over it. Despite the peaceful life she has with Dina and JJ, she is not happy, at least not entirely. Part of her has stayed in that house near Jackson, on the ground where Joel died cruelly. And that part she'll never get back, and she doesn't know it, but even killing Abby wouldn't change anything. Ellie lost too many people, and Joel was the one person she couldn't lose. But even if she doesn't give in to the last siren of vengeance, the damage is already done. After Nora, whom she tortures for information, Owen's death and his pregnant girlfriend, it's too late. Not to mention all the other people she had to kill to get there. It's not without consequences,the guilt is too big,for what she did to those people and also for Joel,who she feels she has to avenge,rightly or wrongly,out of love,out of loyalty, or both.

And it's very clear when she kills Owen and then Mel. Of course, she's just defending herself, she didn't want to kill them, she just wanted to know where Abby was. And most of all, she didn't know Mel was pregnant, and in that moment, she knows she's gone too far, that her revenge cost her too much. But it's really when she sees Jesse die, when she thinks Tommy's dead, too, and she almost lost Dina, that she gives up on revenge, for now. She chooses a quiet life with Dina, but Tommy won't give it up, and Ellie is still very affected by Joel's death.

She must avenge Joel, even if it means losing everything, she will find Abby. She'll finally give up on killing her, and I completely agree with that choice. All this was for nothing? Well, yes, because Ellie realized too late that revenge would never heal Joel's death, would never make up for her great loss, and that Abby's death wouldn't bring Joel back. The problem is, she realizes that too late, she already lost everything else, including herself.

As far as I'm concerned, she knows the farm will be empty, she just needs to go back, as if the last bit of happiness she has left is in this house. And maybe, with a spark of hope, that the person she loves the most after Joel, hasn't abandoned her. I think she also thinks that Dina and JJ deserve better than her, someone who got lost on the path to revenge, a ghost of the Ellie that Dina fell in love with.

Yeah, it's not a happy story, but that was never the point. I think it's hard to imagine the world they live in compared to ours. This is not a world where happiness exists, and if it does exist, it is hard to find, let alone keep.

The game did something very daring, making us play Joel's killer. It's ballsy, isn't it! And yes, bad guys have a life, a story, and a reason to do what they do. They're just as human. I hated Abby, that's a strong word, but I wish Ellie had killed her right then and there, and then I was forced into her head. Abby lost her father, and so did Ellie. Joel killed Abby's father, and she killed Ellie's father. An eye for an eye? A lot of people hate Abby, so I'm going to put it another way. Would you have let your father's killer live? Abby couldn't. It's very legitimate, I wish she'd killed him quickly, his death was cruel. But as much as Joel's choice... All the loss, all the hardship, all of it could have been stopped with the vaccine. All because of Joel. Maybe you wish she would've kissed him and thanked him?

And yet, she spares Ellie and Tommy and Dina, something she's gonna regret, by the way. Because, later, Tommy kills Manny, her best friend. And Ellie kills Owen, the man she loves. And once again, in spite of that, she spares Ellie again. This time, her mercy will save her life, when Ellie delivers her from this new group of slavers she meets. (Ellie the breaker of chains xD) Abby doesn't want to fight anymore, doesn't want revenge. She gives up punishing Owen and Mel's murderer, and their babies, and also the others. (If Abby knows about Nora, etc.)

She knows what it cost her to take revenge, it didn't bring her father back, it didn't ease her grief, and that caused the death of her closest friends, when Ellie, in turn, wanted get revenge. The price is too high. I had no particular affinity with Abby, but I understand her character. In her quest for revenge, Abby only kills the man responsible for her father's death, when Ellie wanted to kill them all, and kills many. Abby also has her bad choices, she condones Isaac's torture methods which are just horrible, but her revenge has not controlled her like she did to control Ellie. Punishing the one responsible was enough, but not for Ellie.Yes, at the beginning, I wanted Abby to die, and kudos to the developers, because at the time when Ellie had her hands around her neck, I had only one thought, let her live, please… Well done to make us pass from a desire for revenge to an act of pity.Yes, Ellie made the wrong choice, but could she make another one? In a world like that, I don't know, it's very difficult to imagine the impact of such a harsh universe on our psychology. But it shows that revenge brings nothing, it takes everything. And hatred also does nothing good, especially if it is your main driver.

This is a great lesson that the developers are giving us, it pushes us to question certain morality, and that was their goal. Our world is also filled with hatred, and some people give in to it so easily. I don’t understand how you can feel all this hatred for people who just created a video game ... Isn’t there a bigger fight in the world? Racism, homophobia, slavery (yes, yes it still exists), pedophilia, rapists, misogynists, the people who govern us, the powerful who buy everything with money, animal and family mistreatment … Why waste time on developers whose only fault is wanting to create a game to entertain people? Were they not successful for you? Go on to something else. And I'm not even talking about everyone who hates the game without ever even playing it. It's just a game. There are more serious things that deserve your anger, don't you think?

This is my opinion and I give it with all the objectivity I can. If the game was bad, I would not have wasted time writing all of this in another language, I would have moved on but that is not the case. Yes this game is huge! And even more because it highlights things that some people want to hide. Personally, I loved that the two characters we play are female! Especially on such dark themes !! It's always for men... two women, who want revenge, who gives in to the darkest and most human emotions. Not men, finally. Thank you Naughty Dog. A gay heroine! I love, and I don't understand all the controversy around LGBTQ propaganda ... So, according to this reasoning, do other games make heterosexual propaganda ?? And gay people have to go through this ?! It's a shame !

No, I'm not gay, I have no personal interest in defending it, just the freedom of everyone to be able to live. It is out of the question that people live unhappy all their life, just so as not to shock people who are too closed to understand that the sexual life of others does not concern them ... More games like that please, and with men too… because homosexuality in the media is often represented by women.

I also didn't understand that we can take offense for the visit to a synagogue ... Should we blame Assassin's Creed for all the cathedrals in which we did stunts and break a lot of things ??

Again, everyone has the right to like or not like the game, but I don’t think you should be so disrespectful of all those people who worked hard on this game. Especially when it’s unwarranted. And I know something about it, I watched GoT season 8, I know what it's like to betray the soul of a story Clearly, this is not the case, here. I’ve seen some very constructive reviews explaining how amazing this game is, but it couldn’t please everyone, and I’m sorry for all those who didn’t like it (those who played well sure, the others are not legitimate for me) but don’t prevent us from enjoying this game, especially if we can have a sequel.

I needed to put all my thoughts on my keyboard, and on my blog, because as I said at the very beginning, this game affected me deeply and it is, for me, the best game I ever played. (sorry RDR 2, sorry Arthur, but Ellie gave you a nice slap there 😋 ) I highly recommend it! However, I know that it cannot please everyone, like all works of art, it’s subjective.

I would like to end with my favorite scenes, no matter they made me smile or cry, because there are really magic and unforgettable moments. Not necessarily rank in order of preference.

- The guitar scene with Dina. The cover of "Take on me" which is just beautiful, I still listen to it often, and it's a moment of peace (like the giraffes in the first one) in this terrible world.

- The scene where Joel takes Ellie to the science museum. Same, wonderful moment in this world of brute. And a wonderful gift from Joel to his daughter. I'm still crying. And that is to bring it perfectly, they could have put this scene to us before his death, it would not have had the same impact. After Joel's death, it hits where it should.

- Of course, the scene where Ellie and Joel talks about his choice to save her. This moment, or Ellie tells him that she can't forgive him yet, that she may never be able to, but that she wants to try, I think that is also one of the reasons why Ellie doesn't want to give up on revenge. Joel died when she still resented him, and they were both on cold terms. She can't forgive herself.

- The scene where Dina offers her her bracelet, I love this bracelet.

- All the null jokes of Ellie !!!! xD

- I cry when Ellie thinks that Dina could leave her for Jesse. And then after, when she comforted her.

- The scene at the farm, when Ellie is walking with JJ, I loved it, she seems happy, but shortly after, we realize that this is not the case, or rather, that something is missing, or someone… The scene of the return to the farm, for me has made it harder, already because it's the end, because Dina is no longer there, even if it was easy to imagine. And the scene where it seems to me that she plays the song that Joel sang to her. She lost him, And then she lost herself. The song he sang to her at the beginning sums it all up. This is the saddest scene for me. In the first game, Ellie told Joel that all the people she has ever loved are dead or have abandoned her. She finds herself alone, and it's partly her fault.

Various :

I hate having to hit Ellie while playing Abby, especially with her arms so big, she must hurt very much!! I'm not a fan of tattoos but Ellie's is just beautiful! I would like to visit a little more Santa Barbara, it changes from Seattle ^^But Seattle is really beautiful. The lifespan of the game is enormous and the difficulty much bigger than the first one. In normal mode I sometimes suffered a lot ^^ Naughty Dog has dared to model the penises of the infected !!! (Yes, I took photos, no I would not show them xD)

The first game had given us a tragic death from the start, Sarah. She is the first playable character for a very short time, and we are just walking with her. And witness helplessly at her death. The second game does the same, but it’s her father who dies this time just after we play a little with him, just for a horse riding with Tommy. Poetic ?

Yes, the game has faults, some bugs, some passages are long, but given the quality it offers us, personally, I forget these faults, nothing is perfect, nothing needs to be.

And the only criticism I have of this game is that I wanted to play with Ellie a bit more (it's relative, the game still has a long life, but I'm greedy, I wanted more of Ellie). I really want to play with her again and I hope that where she goes, she will be fine. I liked her in the first opus, I love her now. She enters the top of my favorite fictional characters, with Daenerys Targaryen, Ellie in second place, and Arthur Morgan (sorry for your second place big boy 😋 ) And I now understand the Youtubers who said that they envied us for still having to discover the game and the scenario. Now, I wish I could forget it and find out again. What is certain is that I will not be able to say goodbye to Ellie, impossible. She deserves a very, very big hug after everything they've done to her.

I haven't read the leaks, I haven't been spoiled at all, and I hate that. I trusted a Youtuber when the fans started to hate the game, without ever playing it, and I was right. For those who compare The Last of Us with GoT: I read the leaks of GoT, I was happy to have done it given the parody they did of the show, I would have really regretted having read the The Last of Us part II leaks. Reading and living the game are two different things.

I probably forgot some things, I will do a second part, I may add things later.

This game is simply and deeply human. In these most beautiful qualities, and especially in these worst flaws.

Best game ever. My opinion.

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kyluxtrashpit · 5 years ago

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TROS Review

Okay here is my extremely long (almost 4k words >.>) review of tros. And that’s without the 2k meta on redemption arcs I also have filed away lmao. First off: I am not leaving the kylux fandom. It’s not a good enough movie to warrant that. Second: I might make a post of things I wished we’d gotten later, but this is already WAY too long lmao. Warnings for spoilers, opinions, and general negativity

EXPLICIT RISE OF SKYWALKER SPOILERS BEYOND THIS POINT

So. I have watched the thing. I went in knowing the spoilers and oh boy, am I glad I did. Still, overall this movie was… not great lmao. It’s messy and the pacing is off and there are some very weird and straight up Bad moments, but I’m not actually upset about it anymore. It’s more like ‘there’s a lot to unpack here’ except we’re not going to unpack it or even throw away the whole thing, it’s just gonna become that one box that’s still packed and untouched from when you moved 3 years ago. It’s there, but you rarely think about it beyond the occasional ‘maybe I should finally unpack that? Nah, too much effort’

I see a lot of people writing fix it fic and that’s totally valid but tbh… I don’t think it’s worth the effort for me. I think I’m just going to pretend it never happened and write my kylux the way I always have. Maybe I’ll do something with tros at some point, maybe some mean!Hux + redeemed!Ben because I’m awful lmao but for now, it hasn’t changed my plans at all. Which is actually a good thing tbh

Anyway. I’ll start with the good simply because there’s less of it lmao. Best thing about the movie? Everyone in it is looking like a fucking snack. It’s great. These people have always been hot, but this movie really nailed that. Also the trio stuff was fun and felt genuine. I LOVED the hints that Finn is Force sensitive, and I liked him in this movie even though I wish he got more story/time. I enjoyed Rey at the beginning, but her actions and plotline made less and less sense as the movie went on. Kylo was fun; I had gotten worried after that interview that said he’s calm now but he wasn’t lmao, like at all, so that was good. Also I didn’t like how Hux died but I’m endlessly grateful Kylo wasn’t the one to kill him. That might’ve actually ruined the ship for me

The visuals were excellent (save that strobing near the beginning; I’m not epileptic, but I had to close my eyes because it was too much). Some of the jokes hit will, as did some of the emotional bits (Chewie’s “death” was very well-executed and Rey’s scream broke my heart). Weirdly enough, C-3PO is kind of the heart of the movie, which I did not expect at all. Lando’s appearances were too brief but good. I also loved D-O a lot and he’s very cute. I liked seeing a bunch of new planets and environments, however briefly. The acting was also really great throughout on most accounts. I really enjoyed 2 of the Hux scenes (when he’s sitting in that board meeting making a face like he’s mentally eviscerating everyone in the room and when he gets so excited to finally get to blow something up and then Kylo shuts him up with the Force BUT WITHOUT HARMING HIM!!!)

That’s kind of it tbh. The movie overall is really messy. I’ve seen people say it feels like a fever dream and it really does. I’ve seen descriptions of people dreaming the plot of tros and they’re less weird. The pacing in the first chunk is way too fast and there’s way too much to take in. Then things get weird in the middle. Then, well, that ending. It feels like it’s trying too hard to be liked. It’s ‘joke’, ‘reference to past movie’, ‘joke’, ‘reference to past movie’, ‘mention of hope without showing it’, etc. etc. on and on throughout it. Some of those are fun, but it got tiring very quickly. And it made it impossible for me to suspend disbelief long enough to actually get into it

I also saw a lot of reviews saying if you didn’t like tlj, you would like this one. That was not correct. I disliked this for many of same reasons I disliked tlj, but it also managed to hold tfa’s weaknesses as well. Honestly, tros feels like the worst aspects of tlj mixed with the worst aspects of tfa, mixed with way too much nostalgia and then blended up with a good heaping of mania and desperation to keep it going. It tried so hard, wanted to be liked so badly, and you can feel that watching it. It doesn’t feel genuine

It also feels like every single movie in the ST was actually from a different trilogy. None of the 3 connect to each other. You can’t say tros is a successor to tlj or tfa; it’s totally on a different path, which I’m honestly not sure how they managed that. As much as I felt tlj wasn’t a true continuation of tfa, tros feels like its own trilogy mashed into one movie. There wasn’t one consistent plot or character thread to follow between all 3 movies

I think bringing palpatine back was the first fundamental mistake. It didn’t fit. And after creating Kylo and Snoke to be very specifically Not Sith, why bring the Sith back all of a sudden? Palpatine has had his day and he didn’t need this. No one did. Much as he was creepy as hell and that was well done, it didn’t feel right to have him there. Also, I really don’t like the implication he procreated at any point skdfjskldjk

As for Rey… I know I’m in the minority here, but I never found here to be a good narrative foil for Kylo. The connection between the two doesn’t really interest me at all (and this was one of the reasons I didn’t like tlj). It worked better if they were related, which was the biggest reason I was a proponent of Rey Skywalker, but that didn’t happen. The commonalities they have are just: 1) can use the Force, 2) have been lonely. The contrasts are: 1) light vs dark (sort of; this is less explicit in tfa and I miss that greyer view of the Force) and 2) had a family vs didn’t. And that’s pretty much it. In order for 2 characters to contrast and hit the ‘complimentary opposites’ sweet spot, you need much, much more than that. Finn has and always will be a better foil for Kylo and it’s a damn shame they abandoned that in tlj and even more so in tros. I have more thoughts on her that I’ll get to later too

I did like Rey in the beginning, but the longer it went on, the less I could rationalize her actions. Why is she doing that? Why is she trying to ditch her friends all the time? Why does she heal the cave snake? Why does she stab Kylo when he’s just become a non-combatant? Why does she heal him after? Why is she trying to reach out to the spirits of past jedi? Why did she Do That after she wakes up in the end? Why did she then seem to not even care that Kylo died right after? None of this is explained. Show, don’t tell, is great, but you can’t just make massive leaps like that. I didn’t get it. None of this felt like the character I’ve gotten to know over the last few years, nor did it feel consistent within the movie itself

That said, I want to discount one complaint I’ve seen: I got no impression she’s exiling herself on Tatooine at the end. It’s very clear she’s just doing a quick funeral ritual for Luke and Leia. The Falcon is still there, ready for when she’s done. I don’t get where the ‘she’s all alone in the desert again forever and ever’ comes from because it’s clear she’s not. It’s just a private ceremony (plus obvious fanservice). That’s it

For Finn: I liked that his character got to be a lot cooler here. I’m sad that he didn’t get half the attention and plot he deserved, but at least he wasn’t treated as a joke and a coward. My tlj complaint for Finn was that he went through the exact same arc he did in tfa over again; here, he doesn’t. He’s clearly grown into himself. That I liked. But damn, he was supposed to be a main character and he really got sidelined hard. It’s also very clear finnrey was planned at some point but didn’t end up in the final cut. The tease with that felt cruel tbh. He deserved to get to tell Rey he loved her on screen

And Poe: Poe was okay in this one. He felt to me like a different character in tfa and tlj, but this one managed to mesh the two characterizations well. He’s a bit of a hothead who doesn’t think (tlj), but he also really cares about people and is trying his best to lead (tfa). That was very successfully done. However. Poe is the one character with the most backstory. He’s got novels, comics, all of it. Where in the fuck is this history of being a spice runner in all that??? Sketchy as hell to make your one Latino character being a drug runner but you know. It also felt like a HUGE retcon of the one character that actually has fully revealed backstory. Also his thing with Zori was just weird and forced and exhaustingly heterosexual. Completely pointless tbh

As I was rereading this, I realized I forgot Rose but really, that’s because she does pretty much nothing. She has very few lines, never comes along. It’s like they forgot she was there. Or just didn’t care. It was really sad and a huge disrespect to everything KMT has gone through. Both her and her character deserved more

For Hux: I liked the 2 scenes I mentioned above, but other than that I was disappointed. I said this on twitter already, but the biggest crime they committed was getting rid of his fanaticism. Tlj may have turned him into a joke, but at least he was still a zealot. Here, it’s clear he gave up his last fuck like a year ago. It’s 9 am and he’s had 6 glasses of wine because he’s lost the will to live and it’s all pointless. Might as well fuck around and give the Resistance info that might lead to the end of everything he’s worked for his entire life because nothing matters and at least Kylo will lose. That’s dumb and violently ooc. I get him being a traitor to Kylo, I am DOWN for that, but not to the FO. He cares about the FO. He is fanatically devoted to the FO. That was ridiculous and wildly out of character. Also the FO is just gone in favour of Palpatine’s fleet as soon as Hux dies? What happened to them? Are they still out there? Who even knows? WHAT A FUCKING WASTE

Also Pryde? Fuck that guy and fuck JJ/LF/Disney for thinking it’s okay to have an old imperial kill Hux. Especially since the visual dictionary today confirmed Pryde knew Brendol and our Hux had known him for years. The possible implications are gross as fuck. If anyone was going to kill Hux one on one, it should have been Finn (with a wonderful stormtrooper rebellion arc involved) for the sake of both characters. I’m personally going to choose to believe Hux was wearing a blaster proof vest (thank you, Delilah Dawson, for putting those into Black Spire as canon) and faked his death. He’s living in blissful exile with Millie now or rebuilding the actual FO and ready to take over as the Emperor he deserves to be

Oh and Leia’s scenes did feel weird. I appreciate them trying to incorporate her, but it didn’t quite work. I feel like having her be offscreen yet present would’ve worked better than most of what they used. Some worked better than others though. I also have some Thoughts about her death but I’m about to get into the second half of the movie stuff and I’ll cover that there

Now Kylo. My darling, sweet, disaster boy. So. Okay. I knew no matter what happened his end would be controversial. And I have a lot of feelings on redemption arcs that can be distilled into one thing: if they’re written well, I like them, no matter how much bad the character has done; however, they are almost never written well enough. One of the first things I said coming out of tfa back in 2015 is ‘that’s going to be a disappointing redemption arc in a few years’. It was never about what ending I wanted (I actually favour something more grey than simply ‘oh he’s good now’ or ‘dies evil’, but that was way too ambitious for them to attempt so I never bothered to hope for it), because I knew it was coming. So this didn’t really bother me beyond the fact that it was too sudden. I do blame that partially on tlj, because it took Kylo from conflicted and torn apart to ‘yeah, I’m in charge now’, but I still think this was not the way to do it. Anyway. I have a 2k word rant somewhere about redemption arcs and when they work and when they don’t that I never posted and this is the much, much shorter version of that

Also. Okay. One more thing on this. So I usually don’t like redemption arcs because they’re written badly, but my least favourite redemption arcs are those that end in death. The only one I can think of that actually worked was Vader’s, but it doesn’t work as well with Kylo. Why? Because redemption is about making amends, not being punished. It’s about choosing to stop doing bad shit and instead to do good things to make up for what you’ve done. In self-sacrifice, not only does it send the message that the only path to redemption is death, but also it means you do literally one thing and then die. That’s it. One good deed, die, you’re done. That’s too fucking easy. True redemption is waking up every single day, for the rest of your life, and continuing to choose to do good. You know that evil is easier, feels better; you’ve done it. But you’re making the choice to keep doing good and to make amends instead. And you do that for years. Decades, even. That is SO MUCH harder to do than just one good thing and then immediately dying without showing if that change is lasting or not. That is how redemption is achieved: in making that choice not once, but again and again and again. So yeah. I didn’t like that. Death redemptions aren’t convincing to me because one choice is easy; consistently making that choice over the rest of your life is much, much harder

End of point: if they were going to redeem Kylo, he needed to live and work to make up for his past mistakes in order to make it impactful. It’s a damn shame he didn’t

Also: having Leia die for the sake of a man, son or not? FUCK THAT. And, even worse, if we follow the movie’s logic: Leia died trying to reach and save her son. Which lead to… him dying anyway?! Which means Leia’s death is meaningless and she died for literally nothing. Fuck that. FUCK THAT. What the fuck. That’s bullshit

Again on the redemption: Kylo just… kills his good friends the KOR without a shred of hesitation? Also the KOR literally never speak? And Kylo says literally one word (‘ow’) after the redemption? I admit, it was fun watching him fight and also watching him get hurt. If I ignore the context of it, watching him crawl out of the pit, scrabbling on the ground, so hurt he can’t even stand up? Fuck. That was good shit tbh. Also those big, desperate puppy eyes. They’re even worse with him as Ben instead of Kylo. Bravo to Adam for playing such a convincing sad boy. I hate that his scar got healed though; I liked it

Now. The whole ending and the plot stuff. Rey being a palpatine is… okay. Fine. I don’t like it but whatever. Seems like an unnecessary excuse to bring him back. Also Luke and Leia knowing? How? Luke knew Rey for literally 1 day. And how would Leia know? And why not tell Rey, who was so desperate for answers to her past when they thought Palpatine was dead? It makes no sense. It’s just very unnecessary. Not to mention the line “you’re a palpatine” is not a thing any real human being would ever say, jfc that was clumsy and unrealistic dialogue. I don’t mind Rey going a bit dark for some time, but this was not the way to do it. Also I was really hoping for a resolution beyond ‘dark siders dead, light sider alive’ because the dichotomous nature of the Force MAKES NO SENSE. Balance is needed. Leaving the only Force user alive a light sider means something dark will come again for the sake of it – Rey should’ve gone grey and tbh tfa made me hope this trilogy would end with all surviving Force users grey. So that was disappointing

Now. The kiss. Straight up: I do not ship it. I don’t mind if other people do, but I do get touchy when they go out of their way to prove there’s nothing inherently problematic about it. I ship kylux; it’s problematic as hell. That’s a good part of why I like it. So I’m fine with r*ylo shippers as long as they do the same. Problem is: most don’t and go around insisting it’s actually the highest romance possible while leaning on incredibly misogynistic and racist tropes to prop up that argument rather than accept their ship has some questionable parts to it (like kyluxers do). It’s more a problem with the fandom for me than it is the ship in theory. Still, I don’t like it and that’s what matters for this

The fact of the matter is it felt extremely sudden and out of place. The entire first half of the movie is Kylo being an aggressive, creepy asshole to Rey. I can theoretically entertain the idea of Kylo having feelings for her (though I don’t), but I cannot see the other way around, not when Rey has so many kind, wonderful people around her. Which is why this feels so weird. There was not enough build to it. I saw a cam clip off reddit before I went in, so I had accepted it was happening but I expected a lot more lead up to it to make it not seem so sudden. None of that was there. There was no build up or reaching of understanding so it reads exactly like those versions of it I dislike: there is nothing wrong with a man berating you and insulting you and attacking you and you should love him for it. That is not enemies to lovers. That’s just abusive bullshit

And then the death. Both of them. Rey dies from… what exactly? It’s never shown at all. And same with Kylo. The leaks said it was Force exhaustion, which a) why? And b) that’s not clear in the damn movie. You need to explain things!!!! And also that means Leia, Luke, Kylo, and Rey all died (even if one didn’t stick) from using the Force too hard. Meanwhile Darth Maul survives getting cut in half and Palpatine survives falling down a shaft in a space station that explodes 2 minutes later (and, you know, all the wacky Force shit he did in this movie too). The fuck? It’s dumb. I hate it

Also the dyad thing was weird. I know the early leaks had it more explained, then the leaks said they cut it, but now it looks like they left in 3 lines of dialogue with it and cut the rest. Again, explanations people! This is not a thing in previous canon! Maybe in the EU, but that’s not canon anymore! The fuck!!!! The idea is dumb and forced to begin with, but the execution made it worse

And now for the final, largest criticism I have. A confession: I am not a star wars fan by nature. I’ve always liked them, but I preferred other sci-fi more. I’m more of an invasive species who forcibly carved my way into this fandom ecological niche because I really loved Kylo lmao. But if there is one thing star wars is defined by, I don’t think it’s love or family or any of those common themes people say. It’s hope. That’s the thing star wars does well. Even when things are darkest, it keeps the hope alive and it makes you feel that. Good will triumph. There is reason to believe in heroes, even when they stumble

This movie is not hopeful. Rogue One, a masterful tragedy, still manages a message of hope despite every single lead character dying. This one doesn’t. And tbh, I think tlj missed on this a bit too (a lot of talk about having hope, not a lot of showing us reasons to be hopeful), but it was still there. Tros does not feel hopeful. The Skywalkers are all dead. Rey has decided to download the legacy (why? No idea! The whole message was ‘don’t be afraid of who you are’ and she just then decided to become someone else? Makes no sense!!!). Anakin’s sacrifice meant nothing because Palpatine came back (and it is CRIMINAL we never got an Anakin and Kylo scene). Han and Leia’s and even Luke’s (a bit) deaths meant nothing because yeah, Kylo turned back in the end, but then he died anyway. They all gave their lives to save him and it was all for nothing. He’s still dead. Palpatine is gone and so is his fleet, but what about the FO fleet? Are they still out there? Are there brainwashed stormtroopers still trapped in its clutches (also, they were so close with Jannah and Finn to adding depth here, but nope, the stormtroopers are still cannon fodder in every fight scene even though they’re literally slaves!!!!)? Who knows!

This movie only feels conclusive in that so many characters we love are dead. That’s it. There’s more questions than answers and so much left unresolved. There’s no sense of hope in it. There’s barely a sense of victory. It’s not satisfying. Even the celebration at the end feels weird and like it’s trying to force you to be happy. The jedistormpilot hug was good, but the lesbian kiss was such a cheap attempt at trying to appease people calling for representation. The moment with Lando and Jannah at the end was probably the most hopeful part of the movie and neither of them are lead characters

Idk. I know this is pretty negative. But I didn’t really enjoy this movie. Some parts were fun, or funny, or exciting, or emotional. But overall? No. This was not a satisfying conclusion for any of these characters, either the new or the old. They missed. Hard. Not one character was truly done justice. And it’s disappointing. But it’s over now and I have no intentions of letting it dictate my fandom activities. I’m just going to pretend it didn’t happen and call it a day

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witchybooks · 4 years ago

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55 BOOKISH QUESTIONS (THAT YOU LIKELY DON’T CARE ABOUT)

I found this questionnaire here

1. Favorite childhood book: Hmmm I didn’t read much when i was a kid. But I’d have to say i loved the Magic Tree House series. That series was amazing when i was a kid.

2. What are you reading right now? I just started Incubus Dreams by Laurel K. Hamilton. But i just finished reading Kiki’s delivery service.

3. What books do you have on request at the library? To Sleep in a sea if stars by Christopher Paolini. Sadly i have to wait eight weeks before i can get it. *sad face*

4. Bad book habit: Hmmm I’d guess i’d have to say that sometimes i check out too many ebooks from the library and sometimes never get to them. Oops.

5. What do you currently have checked out at the library? Nothing. I haven’t been able to go to the library.

6. Do you have an e-reader? No. I want one and will get one eventually but for now i use my ipad.

7. Do you prefer to read one book at a time, or several at once? I usually read about one or two books at a time. It really just depends on my reading mood.

8. Have your reading habits changed since starting a blog? No not really. I still read a majority adult fantasy.

9.Least favorite book you read this year: I’d say Storm Front by Jim Butcher. I just really didn’t like it.

10. Favorite book I’ve read this year: The Laughing Corpse by Laurel K. Hamilton. It was so cool.

11. How often do you read out of your comfort zone? Not very often. Just because most of the time i read out of my comfort zone i end up not enjoying what i’m reading. But recently I started reading some science fiction and i might be getting into this genre.

12. What is your reading comfort zone? Fantasy in general but more adult fantasy. :)

13. Can you read on the bus? I don’t normally take a bus so...no. lol

14. Favorite place to read? My bed or outside under my big maple tree.

15. What’s your policy on book lending? No one but two people are allowed to borrow my books. But they don’t get to borrow my favorites. I’ve had too many bad experiences with people borrowing them.

16. Do you dogear your books? Occasionally if i don’t have a bookmark but normally i use a bookmark.

17. Do you write notes in the margins of your books? No

18. Do you break/crack the spine of your books? only massmarket paperbacks. I find them so hard to read.

19. What is your favorite language to read? Umm English. I am learning french right now so eventually i would love to read in french.

20. What makes you love a book? The Characters and the plot.

21. What will inspire you to recommend a book? If I loved it and think the appeal extends to the person or group of people I’m recommending it to.

22. Favorite genre: Adult Fantasy.

23. Genre you rarely read (but wish you did): General Fiction. A lot of the plots sound interesting but i just have a hard time getting into them.

24. Favorite Biography: None lol

25. Have you ever read a self-help book? (And, was it actually helpful?) I had to for school in 9th grade. It was so boring.

26. Favorite Cookbook: Do restaurant menus count? They should really count.

27. Most inspirational book you’ve read this year (fiction or non-fiction): I really don’t know honestly.

28. Favorite reading snack: Pretzels and Soda or peperoni slices.

29. Name a case in which hype ruined your reading experience: The Bridge Kingdom. I was expecting too much from it.

30. How often do you agree with the critics about about a book? I’ve never really payed attention.

31. How do you feel about giving bad/negative reviews? I feel bad, especially when it’s a book i really didn’t like. But at the same time ba reviews do come with the territory of publishing or releasing art.

32. If you could read in a foreign language, which language would you choose? French.

33. Most intimidating book I’ve read: I really don’t get intimidated by books.

34. Most intimidating book I’m too nervous to begin: I don’t really have one.

35. Favorite Poet: Emily Dickinson i guess. I really don’t read poetry

36. How many books do you usually have checked out from the library at any given time? 1-10 books.

37. How often do you return books to the library unread? Sometimes but not as often as i used to.

38. Favorite fictional character: Rhysand. That man is just amazing.

39. Favorite fictional villain: Eric from True Blood series. Eric is so amazing. Granted he’s not fully a bad guy but mostly he is.

40. Books I’m most likely to bring on vacation: Romance. I enjoy a good fluffy romance when i’m on vacation. Or i will read a easy fantasy book.

41. The longest I’ve gone without reading: Well 6 months since i started my reading journey 12 years ago.

42. Name a book you could/would not finish: Crazy Rich Asians. I couldn’t deal with the characters or the writing. Ugh.

43. What distracts you easily when you’re reading? Loud Noises or the TV.

44. Favorite film adaptation of a novel: Lord of the Rings. It’s one of the best adaptations movie made.

45. Most disappointing film adaptation: Hmm i don’t know.

46. Most money I’ve ever spent in a bookstore at one time: $86.

47. How often do you skim a book before reading it? Never.

48. What would cause you to stop reading a book halfway through? if i just can’t stand the characters or the writing any more.

49. Do you like to keep your books organized? Kind of. I keep the authors together & series together. Also my favorites stay together.

50. Do you prefer to keep books or give them away once they’ve been read? I keep the ones i liked or loved but i chuck the ones i didn’t like.

51. Are there any books that you’ve been avoiding? hmm not really

52. Name a book that made you angry: The Girl in 6E. I couldn’t stand that book.

53. A book I didn’t expect to like but did: Eragon by christopher paolini. It was a book that really surprised me.

54. A book I expected to like but didn’t? From Here to Eternity by Catlin Doughty. I really loved her first book. But this one was just not my cup of tea.

55. Favourite guilt-free guilty pleasure reading: I don’t get the whole guilty pleasure thing. You like what you like and thats that.

Okay thats it ya’ll. Tag me if you do this tag. See you in my next post. :D

My Goodreads page

#booktag #witchybooks

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verannaca · 5 years ago

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so I saw Frozen 2 for the fourth time

i have so many questions.

there’s a relatively negative (and very long) review beneath the cut so pls read at your own risk. and, of course, spoilers.

I’ve seen Frozen 2 four times now and yikes. I’d kinda hoped it would get better with each viewing, but it’s somehow worse??? I really loved the first movie; it literally changed my life in an incredibly drastic way (don’t ask) but it had been very important to me over the past six years, and...I’m so disappointed.

My initial reaction was disappointment, and I should’ve stuck with it. Like, wtf was that? But some parts were also really well done? It left me so conflicted lol

PROS

Vuelie was a good way to open the film; I quite liked the nostalgia :’)

The intro scene in general was good; I liked seeing more of their parents, although idk what their father was thinking telling them such a tale before bed lmao seems like some shit my mother would do

All is Found is my favourite non-depressing song in the movie, and it opens it beautifully. ERW has a wonderful voice.

The animation really is beautiful; it looks so realistic. Specifically the clouds and the one scene of the waves crashing over the pine trees. It looked amazing!

The music is good but not great. FTFTIF is my favourite; it’s so catchy and cheery. I really liked TNRT, and SY is perfect, but these songs just weren’t as catchy as the ones in Frozen?? I’m thankful for AURORA tho, that was a lovely gift.

Bruni was absolutely adorable (even tho he was an obvious cash-grab for merch lol), 10/10 love Bruni. Bruni + Elsa = even better.

Anna looked absolutely breathtaking throughout the entire movie; the redesign they did animation-wise really works in her favour, and now she’s rocking those Emilia Clarke eyebrows which is a hell yes from me. Her final look gave me all the feels; I can’t say I’m a huge fan of the dress and hairstyle?? it seemed a bit too not Anna, but at the same time, it showed her growth and maturity and I’m very happy with that.

As dark as it was, the shipwreck scene was beautiful. It was handled beautifully; their reactions were devastating. There is a huge con here, but I’ll save that for later.

The ocean battle was really neat. The water looked so good, and Elsa looks good wet???

The whole scene in Ahtohallan was well done; I liked the memories. I wish Anna had been there; she deserved to see her history, too, and it wasn’t fair that Elsa got that spotlight once again.

Everything after Elsa freezing was absolutely breathtaking as well. Anna’s reactions, the song, the scenery-- it was tragically beautiful.

Kristoff had the two best lines in the ENTIRE movie: “I’m here. What do you need?” and “It’s okay. My love is not fragile.” It’s so rare to see a good, supportive relationship in tv/movies, be it heterosexual or homosexual, it doesn’t happen. It’s so rare. So this was a beautiful break from that; the faith he had in her was amazing. Thank u. the real mvp.

The scene with Anna as she accepts the fate of her future; as she takes in a breath and realises/accepts that her home is gone, and her blood family is gone. Everything about it was perfect. You could feel her emptiness. Poor baby needed a hug :(

I liked that Kristoff also hugged Elsa when she returned; it showed that they were friends, which is really important for Anna tbh

I think that’s it for pros??? Now for the cons.

CONS:

Gonna start this off simple: the plot was weak. This is unfortunately not an unpopular opinion; it made no sense. It was too convoluted to the point where nothing was explained.

The pacing was off, and it was ridiculously anti-climactic. The layout in general seemed a bit weird tbh I could definitely sit here and justify all of it, but I shouldn’t have to.

They gave us no reason to gaf about this voice that Elsa was hearing. How long had she been hearing it for? Why was she so drawn to it? Why didn’t she think she was just hearing things? Or maybe she did at one point and then realised she wasn’t crazy?

There was almost no character development. Elsa was the same as she was in Frozen, but this time, it was just annoying. She never learned or grew. Anna was demoted to a clingy side-character even though she’s the protagonist; I have no words for how frustrating this was to watch. I miss the Kristanna bickering. I liked their dynamic overall; I understand their insecurities and lack of ability to communicate because of it, and I liked how non-toxic they were. Overall, they did love and trust each other; they believed in and supported each other, even though they had a falling out (again and again) and were separated for most of the film (again, wtf?) EA had no development together, and honestly, they were annoying asf as a duo. There was no communication and no understanding. I will say that Anna’s fear and frustration throughout the entire movie was absolutely 100% understandable and sensible; she’d already lost too much before, and wasn’t prepared to lose anything else. I just wish she’d been portrayed a bit differently??? And it would’ve been nice if Elsa had stopped for, like, two minutes to be like, “hey, are you okay, you seem clingy and worried” but instead she just kept running and didn’t gaf.

It was over dramatic for the sake of plot, when it didn’t have to be. Elsa didn’t have to continuously try and push Anna away “for her protection.” They absolutely could’ve done the vast majority of things together. Fuck, they could’ve gone to the dark sea together. Anna could’ve stayed on the beach while Elsa tackled the Nokk. Then when Anna saw that Elsa was perfectly capable of protecting herself, they could’ve parted ways then and done whatever it was they needed to do. Or, Elsa could’ve taken Anna to Ahtohallan?? They may have discovered there that Anna couldn’t enter, but then they’d be given the opportunity to communicate, and Anna would’ve at least been included, since this was her history, too.

If this is a movie about two sisters, why the ever loving fuck is it all about Elsa and her origins? What about Anna’s origins? They were her parents, too. Sure, we ask “why does Elsa have magic,” but why doesn’t Anna have magic? Why was Elsa the “gift”? Why is Anna’s superpower “love”?? And why is that “superpower” only valid when it’s in regards to Elsa? Why is Anna so strong, physically? Emotionally? Personally? Is it just her? Why isn’t she an element, too? What’s with this bridge bullshit? Why the fuckkkk is Elsa the “fifth spirit” when she’s ice and ice is literally just water? I have so many questions.

How the heck was Iduna Northuldra? Did she become “whiter” because she remained inside a castle for twenty years? Or was she always “white passing”? Or was she adopted into the forest? Who are her parents? Did anybody miss her when she ran off to the kingdom? Her scarf was from “one of [their] oldest families” and yet nobody seemed to know who she was? And what do you mean “oldest families”? Are there no remaining members of that family? Nobody who was missing her? Nobody who would’ve recognised her daughters who are literally carbon-copies of her????

The shipwreck scene and the following scene pissed me off soooo much in the theatre lol First, it really was beautiful how they did it, but the interactions felt out of character. Elsa brought up the memories of their parents’ demise without consoling Anna at all. Not only did she just do it without at least a warning, she then proceeded to leave her behind in her own fit. Which, okay, yes, to an extent that makes sense; she was over-ridden by guilt. But those were Anna’s parents too. Elsa was all she had, and Elsa left her behind. I just- AND THEN in this moment of severe grief and horror, as these terrible things were revealed, Anna was pushed away again to be left on her own to deal with things alone. She’d JUST sacrificed her own feelings for Elsa, and Elsa’s response was to shove her away. WHY. I just??? hello??? Like, Elsa does care about Anna, right? That’s canon? So why tf would they write her like this?? jfc

Every single new character was wasted potential. Mattias above all else was very interesting, and should’ve had at least ten minutes more screentime??? I liked the scene of him and Anna discussing whatever, but there should’ve been more. They both cared more about Arendelle than anyone; they were both sworn to protect. There could’ve been more of an on-screen relationship there. (and don’t fucking come at me with your gross-ass ships please, tyvm). Honeymaren and Ryder were there for ??? merchandise? A reason for Elsa to stay behind? Queer-baiting??? I don’t get it. They did,,, nothing. Yelena? Did nothing. Why do these name-characters do nothing?? What’s the point???

This was advertised as a “big adventure” but had hardly any adventure. Frohana was apart for most of the damn movie, the action scenes had little consequences, the “climax” was ??? what, Elsa freezing? Who cares?? It’s obvious she’s going to come back. The wave heading for Arendelle??? Yeah, that would’ve been a good climax if it actually did any damage. But no, I guess Elsa can teleport now? aight. and now she gets to play hero again even though she didn’t do shit

The plot(?) was very predictable, and didnt really have a twist. Old white guy kills innocent POC. Okay. That’s real life, yeah? It’s shit; it happens, but why was this whole movie based around that? Was it a political statement? We don’t really need more political movies these days??? People are aware, and things are shit as is; idk it just felt forced. But this is a v controversial subject so imma shut up lol

THERE ARE NO CONSEQUENCES. Unless you’re Anna. Then you suffer severely cuz,,, fuck her, right? The entire cave thing (as beautiful and needed as it was) could’ve been prevented entirely if Elsa had just fucking communicated. But instead, Anna had to suffer again in such a severe way. Her feelings DID have consequences; they effected her severely and even influenced wreckless behaviour. But then?? it’s all over. And suddenly, it doesn’t matter. Suddenly, who cares? Elsa returns and is (for some unforeseen reason) magically forgiven. This ISN’T HOW SISTERS ARE. If my sister pulled half the shit Elsa did, the first thing she’d be greeted with is a slap across the face and a very loud “fuck you.” THEN she’d get a hug and some tears. You don’t fuck with people’s emotions like that. And the fact that there were no serious consequences is infuriating.

Anna becomes Queen without context. Did she want to be queen? Did she suggest it? Did Elsa decided “eh fuck it i’m bored, your turn” and just dump it on her? Anna is a free-spirit. Yes, she was absolutely devoted to her kingdom; her people always came first; she was an incredibly loving and selfless princess, but was she truly prepared to give up that freedom to be Queen? I think she fits the role beautifully; she was absolutely born to rule. But is she happy? Or is she yet again cleaning up Elsa’s mess, since that seems to be all she does?

Why did Elsa stay in the forest? Is it because she felt like she belonged with the spirits? With the people? Away from civilisation? All of the above? None of the above? And how did that conversation go with Anna? How did she explain; “hey, I know I died and fucked you up and promised that we’d always stay together, but I’ve decided I’m gonna leave you behind again and stay here with these people I barely know.” Did Anna object, or did she see the positives of being away from someone so toxic???? It makes no senseeeee, they were so good together in the first movie; it all feels so out of character. Both of them feel out of character.

There were few (very few) moments in which they really were like themselves:

The charades scene.

“You think I’m c R A Z Y?”

Head tilts with Bruni.

Anna laughing at Elsa’s braid-stache.

Elsa making toys for children.

The pleasant Kristanna scenes at the beginning.

Anna’s anger scenes.

Even Elsa’s personal drama???

but that’s it? I’ve seen it four times in theatre, and a few times online (though mostly in pieces) so I don’t think I missed anything. Perhaps I’m blinded by the frustration that this film caused. Overall:

The plot was weak.

The animation was beautiful.

Kristanna wasn’t the Kristanna we truly know?

Elsa was dramatic and annoying because she had no development.

Anna was demoted to a clingy side-character and was given a half-assed purpose.

The music was meh.

There was too much and yet somehow not enough.

It was a mess.

Six years. SIX. I-

ugh.

final note: PLEASE ANSWER MY QUESTIONS IF I MISSED SOMETHING. I think it’s also important to note that if you went to the theatre for 2 hours of entertainment, that’s great, but not the same as those of us that have dedicated six years of our lives to these characters? So please don’t come @ me if you were just a movie-goer. I also wanna say that there were a lot of parts of this movie that I loved and will hold onto, but overall, the movie as a whole was meh. I LOVED Anna & Elsa in Frozen; they had good development and had reasons for being how they were. They had a good dynamtic and worked well together. I hated their relationship in F2; it was toxic and forced in many ways; they didn’t interact nearly enough, and when they did, they were bitching for the sake of plot, which was very frustrating.

This isn’t a hate post so please don’t come at me lol my opinion is entirely irrelevent in the grand scheme of things, but hey, we’re here to chat and share, right?

sigh.

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the-risen-tide · 5 years ago

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OKAY SO, I finally went to see the new Cats movie in theaters. I wanted to give myself a bit to collect my thoughts, because HOO BOY are there thoughts. Not terrible ones though...like my reviews of everything else, I gave it a look with a level head.

Because I can’t really review without spoilers, I’m going to put my thoughts under a cut. Read at your own peril.

Now, I’d promised myself ages ago that I’d go into the movie with an open mind and a clear head. I’d already seen reviews that were divided greatly on it (mostly between people who’d already seen Cats on stage and those that have never seen it ever), but as usual it’s a good idea to have your own opinion.

That said.

I loved it.

The weird part is, at first, I came away from it thinking that I didn’t enjoy it as much as I thought I would. But everything about it from the visuals to the music (especially the new song, I’ll get to that in a bit) and the story, all of it was still sticking with me after I left the theater, and I began loving it more in hindsight than I did sitting there in the moment, if that makes sense.

Cats has always been one of those shows that breaks quite a few rules of what people think a show should be. More an opera than a musical, more a dance/ballet performance than a story, with a look that allows the audience to use their imaginations, and as such can put more than a few people off of it. It’s not everyone’s cup of tea, but despite that, it’s memorable, and has a great following. The movie seemed to try to take that feeling from the stage show, strange and mystifying and daunting (maybe even a bit awkward), yet charming and inspiring and heart-catching. In many ways it succeeded, and some ways it didn’t...and where it didn’t was probably mostly the fault of the presentation. And of course, opinions are going to vary wildly on it.

But anyway, for those that know and love the show, it’s a good idea to see this one as just another production, an alternate canon, because you can’t compare each production to each other (much less a movie to a stage show), as that’s where an adaptation fails in everyone’s minds. This one seemed to take inspiration from the original 1981 production and build a new story from the ground up, while of course still keeping the music and songs that everyone loves. The lyrics of some of the songs do call back to the original production (the version of Mungojerrie and Rumpleteazer used was from that one, and not from the 1998 video and subsequent performances, which I found surprising; but not displeasing, they did it very well), and while I was a little disappointed that Jemima/Sillabub wasn’t an important character as she is in the stage show, I remember Lloyd Webber at first wanting a kitten character with both Victoria’s dance prowess and Jemima’s singing prowess, who embodies the show as a whole. He got what he wanted in movie form with Victoria, and they took the character to a whole different direction than the original, which was interesting.

So, to sum up, one can see this movie as an adaptation of the original ideas for the stage show. It isn’t my personal canon concept, but it’s one I ended up liking just as much. Now, here are my personal likes and dislikes.

Dislikes: The background characters aren’t given as much personality as they are on stage, or at least, aren’t shown as much personality; and with many of them taking on different designs, it’s hard to tell who’s who until you see the credits, where everyone’s named. You only ever know a few of the main characters, their own stories, and that’s it. Not even Munkustrap gets named directly, and he’s still got his role as the sort-of narrator and introduction to the world of the Jellicles. Of course, this is probably a minor grudge, as background characters can’t be as prevalent in a movie version without it going on longer than needed. But, at least they’re still there, and still lend their charm to the setting, and perhaps in subsequent watches I’ll be able to see more of who everyone is and what they’re doing.

Still, leaving characters in the background also means leaving various character relationships behind, save for the main ones. Demeter, who in the stage show is still an ensemble character (but an important one for the subplot of Macavity), has been downgraded to another of many minor characters; Cassandra now mostly fills the role of a forefront ensemble singer, and nobody really seems to have anything that connects one to another emotionally. Basically it was like the relationships common to many of the productions were ret-conned or tossed altogether; the focus is on the main characters. But again, another minor grievance, as it is a movie, and a separate production, and no production is canon...and we still have our imaginations to go on. X3

Also, personally, I disliked that they made Bombalurina evil. On stage, though she’s presented as the “good-bad girl”, attractive and seductive, she’s still a beloved part of the ensemble, friend to quite a few of the queens, and protective in a sisterly way over Demeter. “Macavity” is meant as a duet with the two warning the others of his malevolent deeds; in the movie, she’s not seen until nearly the end, and the song is sung in praise of him while helping him bring the Ball to a halt. It was a good number, though, and the different take on the character probably had to be there plot-wise...but still, IMHO the character deserves better.

Plus, it’s no wonder why Munkustrap was thought boring by his actor; they didn’t really give him his “protector” role. The fight with Macavity is taken out entirely. Again, Munk as a character also deserves better.

Also, Jennyanydots deserves better. X3 She’s presented as a comedy-relief character, and honestly I think they tried a little too hard with that, along with Bustopher Jones; both of their segments were a tad cringey to me...but theirs were the only ones, really. The music in them was still superb, it was just the way they were presented. They could have probably just stuck Bustopher with the comic-relief role (as he is somewhat in the stage show), and that would’ve been sufficient.

I believe those were my only grievances. Now let’s get to what I liked.

THE MUSIC, first of all. STILL awesome. I feel like, really, the movie kept in what made the stage show important...and as with musicals, that was keeping the tones of the beloved songs, from the overture at the beginning all the way to The Ad-dressing of Cats. That plus the impressive dancing. I could still catch some little bits of choreography from the stage show in them, although mainly it was all revamped for the movie...but they kept the music, so that’s the biggest point (though some were edited down a bit to make time for dialogue; understandable, still). Skimbleshanks’ number has to be the most impressive, by far.

Adding to this, the new song, Beautiful Ghosts, written together by Lloyd Webber and Taylor Swift. Wow. You can tell they made a song that would really fit into the show...it’s haunting and sad, and yet hopeful, and the more I listen to it with Victoria’s story in mind, the more I tear up. It’s brilliant.

The story, I also liked. I admit, it has to be hard to try and make a plot out of a musical that has a fairly bare-bones presentation to it, and is mostly comprised of songs adapted from a poetry book about cats. There are many ways they probably could have taken the plot, but they did it very well, in my opinion; plus they still kept the most important events from the stage show: Grizabella’s redemption arc, and Macavity’s trying to derail things, straight down to kidnapping Old Deuteronomy and her being brought back through Mistofelees’ magic; I love how that bit was presented, too. He and the others are expecting a grandiose magic return, and instead it’s off-screen and softly sung, and as the music swells from solemn to joyous, you know it’s just as magical all the same.

I knew that Growltiger would make an appearance in this, but I didn’t realize he’d be made his own character, when in the play, he’s a character that Gus the Theater Cat played in the past...only the first few lines of his song was sung, too. But at least they kept his appearance from the play, down to the “somewhat-missing” ear. X3 That bit was clever, I liked it.

Also, Victoria and Mistofelees are adorable as heck in this one, can’t lie. XD

Speaking of the characters, the casting too is pretty great. Robert Fairchild, I could see actually playing Munkustrap on stage. He has the same cadence and comforting tone of voice and is a lovely singer. Sir Ian Mckellan, I couldn’t see anyone else playing Gus (he even has a very similar voice to the original 1981 cast member)...and Taylor Swift did make a good Bombalu, if in appearance and voice. X3 And of course we can’t forget Francesca Hayward’s performance as Victoria; hope to see her career expand. Dame Judi Dench made a very regal Deuteronomy (and yes, the thought of a female Deut has grown on me), and it’s good to see that she got to be in Cats, knowing her history. And as predicted, Idris Elba made a pretty sinister Macavity. X3

So, all in all?

This movie probably gets so many negative reviews from the general public, because most of the general public has never seen the musical, and really don’t know what to make of the adaptation. X3 This is definitely not for anyone who doesn’t like musical theater, let alone Cats...I feel that the movie was only made with the true fans in mind. And that’s just fine; not everything has to cater to the public at large, because if you try to do that, it’s not really a passion project. Cats has always been unique, and still is, and there are people out there who very much appreciate the hard work that has been put into it. The sets are phenomenal. The CGI could use work, but for an experimental style, it was done pretty well (yes, it’s possible to get past the uncanny-valley looks of the characters, at least it was for me, because they didn’t bother me in the first place). It shows that they tried hard to stay true to the spirit of the stage show, while also putting something completely new into it. And I think they nailed the spirit, which is the important thing in an adaptation: the spirit.

There’s a few things that could be changed, namely in presentation overall...they could have used another director, to be honest...but the casting, the music, the dancing...heck, some of the designs...that’s all good. Actually it’s funny to me to observe how easy it is to make a musical-type movie into a stage show, a-la The Lion King, but how hard it is to do it the other way around. XP

Would I watch it again? Heck yes. Buy the DVD? Heck yes (especially once they’ve put out the full version). Does it hold up to other productions? No, but I didn’t expect it to; it’s a movie. They took all the essential things and rebuilt it, simple as that.

And so, overall, I give the movie a score of 3.5 out of 5. It’s not my canon, but it’s still good, and you can ignore the hell out of the reviewers, they’re all plebs. XD

Thank you, my dears!

#text post #blog post #movie reviews #cats the movie #cats the musical #cats musical #cats 2019 #cats spoilers

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comicteaparty · 5 years ago

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April 18th-April 24th, 2020 Creator Babble Archive

The archive for the Creator Babble chat that occurred from April 18th, 2020 to April 24th, 2020. The chat focused on the following question:

What are your personal rules of thumb for determining whether a certain page needs a maturity or trigger warning?

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

i have no rule of thumb and i'm really curious to read what other people think about this

Deo101 [Millennium]

I usually ask people if they think it needs one, and I only ask if it is significantly different than what I've been doing.

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

I guess it depends on the subject and the severity. There are the basic ones, like rape, excessive gore, suicide, graphic sex, common phobias, etc. Things that can very easily trigger a large group of people or are generally not allowed in PG-13 movies. But there are other times I don't know if putting a warning or labeling it as mature is necessary. For example, profanity, suggestive material, violence (that doesn't involve gore), and again typically things that can make it into a PG-13 movie. Once it starts to be graphic enough to move into the realm of rated R, that's when you should start putting warnings. My problem with warnings as a creator is that the warnings can kind of spoil the contents of the chapter, so I try not to use them unless what happens in the comic could potentially harm a large number of people by not warning them.

RebelVampire

As a reader I do want to chime in say I agree with that last part. Whenever I see warnings, they are very spoilery so there's no surprise when I get to the warning part of the chapter/episode/page. I expected it so it loses some of its emotional value for me. Or, on the flipside, is so minor it shouldn't have had a warning that its ultimately underwhelming and disappointing.

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

Yeah, that's exactly why I'm wary about it

I am very sparing with my warnings, because I don't want the readers to lose any of that emotional impact.

carcarchu

my target audience for my webcomic is middle schoolers so the content i produce is never something i feel i need to put trigger warnings for. personally i think you don't really need to tag things unless the content is significantly different from what is expected from the comic. like if it starts out a lighthearted romp and then suddenly there's beserk levels of violence that probably ought to have some warning

Eilidh (Lady Changeling)

I would probably put a CW for blood, gore etc. Of any level just to be safe. Different people have different sensitivities, and as a sex-averse ace I know I often would like CW on sexual/sex-adjacent content that others might not think was enough to need one so. I just err on the side of caution

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

I specifically never put warnings in anything I write. If something I write deeply upsets someone or makes them extremely uncomfortable, that's a good thing. It means I've done my job in expressing and conveying the emotional context I set out to accomplish in most circumstances.

My background is poetry and I've only ever read a single book that had any warnings attached, and that was at the beginning of the book, not for each poem. Even then, it was from an author who was particularly, er, well a bit off their rocker.

Like, if you open a collection of poetry and you're surprised to see heavy topics covered...that's your own fault at that point.

If I had opened one of my favourite collections, The Flame by Leonard Cohen, and saw content warnings, I would have probably said in my head "Why the fuck is this here?" and "Well, no shit that's in here, this is Leonard Cohen."(edited)

My job is to convey and express regardless of what the reader might think. It's never my job to guide or warn them, it's my job to present to them.

Fiction, outside of that catered to younger audiences, tends to contain a lot of stuff that can be deeply uncomfortable to the reader (yes, even comedy). I've read stuff that's really gotten to me emotionally, and that's OK, that's a good thing, the author presented what they intended to (G-d knows they did). If you don't want that, then really, you just have to be cognizant of the fiction you're reading and remember that stories about life often have all aspects of life in them.

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

I have read things (though mostly non-fiction) that have made me want to cry or so sick that I felt the need to vomit. The author didn't warn me of that. They presented what they had without pretext nor excuse. They did their job. Those are very much extremes, but the point is that I consensually opened those texts knowing that might happen. I mean, it's not hard to look at the subject matter or what the reviews say and think "Hm, OK, this book isn't all sugar and roses". Frankly, though, I just feel that the content warnings and all tarnish the authenticity of a text that stands on its own.

Sorry for the rambling, but admittedly, I do include a content warning for that in my username!

chalcara [Nyx+Nyssa]

I don‘t do content warnings, but I try to make sure to be upfront about the type of story people can expect.

Seen the results of someone springing a graphic, surprise character-gets-raped-to-death into until then fluffy childfriendly story for „trolololOLOL, I made you have a FEEL, I am an ARTISTE.“

It‘s disrespectful to the reader at best, after all they need to be able to make an informed decision if they opt in or not.

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Alright, that's plain bad writing, but dramatic tone shifts can and are used effectively.

Joichi [Hybrid Dolls]

I thought about content warning because I have seen comics that was upsetting to me and readers, and there was no trigger warning. Just a side note in the first chapter that the author explain that 'their characters' weren't a representation of every trans experience. But still had backlash for it. So some content warning when it comes to sensitive stuff like trauma, gender disphoria should be stated somewhere? I wasn't Trans but effected, I assume it was worse for trans readers seeing uncomfortable scenes that remind them of bad experiences.(edited)

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

When I was younger, I used to be into a lot of animated stuff, and there was this one anime (don't judge, I was like fourteen) called Steins;Gate that, for the first half, is relatively comedic and lighthearted, before a very dramatic tone-shift in one episode where most of the main cast die on-screen and it becomes a conspiracy/time-travel thriller. It was actually very, very good, and it's an incredibly popular show because of it.

chalcara [Nyx+Nyssa]

Yeah. I think this is what content warnings are coming from: trying to enable the reader to make an informed decision of they wanna opt in to a story or not. It‘s a matter of consent.

They‘re not perfect, but better than nothing.

Eilidh (Lady Changeling)

I agree with @chalcara [Nyx+Nyssa] here on the point that it's about being able to knowingly consent to a potentially unpleasant experience

Deo101 [Millennium]

Honestly I'd rather have a small spoiler at the end of the page before Something happens than potentially hurt someone

Again, only if it's really tonally dissonant

Eilidh (Lady Changeling)

There's plenty of things I don't mind if I'm aware of it beforehand so I can make sure I'm in a good headspace, but the same things could totally put me off a story/creator and give me issues for months if I wasn't expecting them

Source: personal experience

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Webcomics are probably very different, but I'd find it would put me off a lot in poetry (and it's also something you don't see in it; it's just not a part of the industry culture). But people having negative emotions from reading is very commonplace and par for the course.(edited)

Joichi [Hybrid Dolls]

But I also feel that content warning do give away bit of spoiler. I was taught the good way to protray an incoming dark topic is to give hints along the chapters, rather than 'spring it out of the blue'. I haven't written anything super dark/angst before though. It's uncomfortable for me and I haven't cross that threshold of feeling yet(edited)

Eilidh (Lady Changeling)

Personally I feel like if your story or scene or whatever relies so heavily on the shock of specific content that it would be ruined by the "spoiler" potential of a content warning, it's bad writing

Deo101 [Millennium]

I feel like stories in general are not ruined by spoilers, though some people don't like them. But if we're in a scene and we're gonna see someone get cut in half and you say "hey this battle has extreme violence" that's hardly a spoiler

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Not always. Shock, if it's not in bad taste, can be used as a device to help set the emotional context for the rest of the passage. It's bad writing to use it bombastically and haphazardly, but in light touches, like a ghost pepper, it can help. On its own, though, yeah it's usually bad writing.

Deo101 [Millennium]

Since comics are visual there is more need for this kind of a thing because it can be more intense for readers

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Ah, yeah, that's true. My field doesn't have visuals.

I can imagine it may be different in that case.

Deo101 [Millennium]

Also, think like. Movies also have this, that's what the rating system is

A movie rated r for extreme violence isn't a spoiler

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Especially if it has Tom Cruise in it.

RebelVampire

Yes but imagine if the movie paused right before the worst parts to say "Hey this is gonna be a mature scene"

chalcara [Nyx+Nyssa]

Age ratings ARE content warnings.

Deo101 [Millennium]

Tv shows do it at the beginning of an episode

And, with comics you have natural pauses

Putting a small banner at the bottom of an update doesn't interrupt the flow the same way putting it at the top of one would, and it can prep people to know not to even open the next update kind of thing

I haven't done content warnings my content is only pg13 but I've thought a lot about it for future, more intense ideas

chalcara [Nyx+Nyssa]

In Germany‘s there are no tv show content warnings, but certain stuff can only be aired after 20:30 or on dedicated channels.

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

I agree with @RebelVampire . In my favourite movie of all time by far which you 100% have to watch (IT'S REALLY GOOD!!!) On the Waterfront, there's one scene which really gut-punched me when I first watched it because it's, well, fairly disturbing, but if the movie stopped before it and some dude came up and said "B'ys, cover your children's eyes", that'd be ridiculous. Age warnings pre-screening are fine because it's an audiovisual form, but considering that text doesn't have that visual or audio component, I just don't see the need. I can understand why you would do it as a comic artist, though.

Deo101 [Millennium]

There are also, for movies and TV, sites like "does the dog die?" Which provide this kind of information for people with triggers. Comics don't have this kind of a site though so it's on the creator

chalcara [Nyx+Nyssa]

That reminds me, I need to put Nyx+Nyssa‘s age rating note up. g

Eilidh (Lady Changeling)

People with triggers are the sticking point for me. Even if most people would be okay, there's people who won't be and I don't want to act like they don't matter when I'm putting warnings on my content. I feel like it's my responsibility if I'm making that content.

chalcara [Nyx+Nyssa]

Yup. I know someone with cPTSD who cannot engage with media without content warnings; because disassociation is NOT fun and dangerous. „Does the dog die“ and similiar things mean she can engage with media without having to rope in others as betas.

Deo101 [Millennium]

Yes, same here. Obviously you can't warn for everything, many people have obscure and specific triggers, but there are common ones that are generally sensitive subjects that I don't think it's bad to warn a bit about

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

I don't think it is your responsibility, but rather those with triggers to be careful. I'm a trauma victim and I do have triggers, but you know, I can't expect everyone to know that (especially with how hilariously specific they are). If you're worried, do your research

chalcara [Nyx+Nyssa]

There‘s a huge difference between being responsible of for someone and being mindful for someone.

Eilidh (Lady Changeling)

As someone who has triggers as well - I'd prefer to be able to see at a glance. It's awful having to be on guard constantly and worried about what if you didn't do your research quite well enough

Deo101 [Millennium]

I personally only read comics on reccomendation because of mine

They're not common ones but I've never been annoyed by trigger warnings that aren't for me

It usually looks much different from the comic so you can just quick look and scroll past

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

I really understand that and I can understand it in the context of your industry because it has that visual component, but in the context of mine it's not done because content warnings wouldn't really make much sense for my industry. What will annoy me is when trigger warnings are uploaded for every part of the webcomic. Like, that's a little extreme.

Eilidh (Lady Changeling)

I understand it's very different context for poetry - but I'm talking about comics

Deo101 [Millennium]

I would agree that uploading for every page would be extreme, but I would think I'm that case it would be at the start of the comic or in the description

chalcara [Nyx+Nyssa]

About pages! They exist for a reason.

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

At the beginning of the entire comic, if you want to, that's fine. I think it does change the mindset of the reader and can be detrimental to the story in some cases, but if you know it's not, then that's fine! Of course, that problem can be solved just like @chalcara [Nyx+Nyssa] just suggested: put it on the About page.

Yeah, no, I could get behind that.

For webcomics, I think that would be a good solution.

Deo101 [Millennium]

Some sites don't offer about pages, though, and if it's not a major theme and only in a small part it's nice to put it in the comic itself too

Like my comic is generally very light-hearted but coming up I do have a scene that's significantly more violent than the rest of the comic has been, and I debated whether or not to warn my readers about it

I don't want to put a violence warning in my description though because it would draw the wrong audience

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

I mean, it really depends. If it's suddenly looks like the notes of a medical student, then put a warning, but some light violence is probably fine.

Others could probably give a better opinion on that though.

chalcara [Nyx+Nyssa]

Yup. I liked how dumbing of age handled it‘s suicide warning - it was specific to that particular page because it dealt with specific details as opposed the more general discussion. So that page got a small note on top. Didn‘t remove the emotional impact, but allowed people to brace themselves or opt out.

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Page the Poet refuses content warnings and enjoys their readers' suffering (/s).

All jokes aside, what do you mean about some sites not offering About pages? I'm not well-versed on hosting web-comics.

Deo101 [Millennium]

Well, for instance with webtoons you have a 500 (?) Character description, and that's it

Maybe it's 1500 or something idk it's been a while since I wrote mine. But it's not a seperate page like how I would have on my own site

On your own site it's awesome cause people can just, if they have triggers they can go there to see jf they're fine to read

But with webtoons, tapas, and other hosts you get one page and it's just your comic and description

So putting "violence warning" there is much different than on a seperate page

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

I thought most web-comics had their own site?

Deo101 [Millennium]

I mean I do, but many don't

And most readers these days are on hosts I think

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Oh. Yeah, alright, I see the issue.

Deo101 [Millennium]

My description says pg13, LGBT, and slowburn and that's all it gets from me. I would be more descriptive in my about page which I do still need to code

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

I'm curious, why specify the LGBT part?

Deo101 [Millennium]

But yeah so it's a very case by case basis depending on where you are and all that

Oh because I want lgbt people to know my comic has an LGBT cast and is catered to them

It's so my comic more likely finds my target audience

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

OH.

carcarchu

i think about stuff like school live and bokurano and consider that i'd be really upset if the sudden dramatic shift in tone was overtly warned beforehand because the shock factor was so important for those series in particular so i don't know how to handle warnings for stuff like that

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

That makes sense.

Please excuse my idiocy haha.

Deo101 [Millennium]

Not idiocy, it's a lot of potential to learn ;)

Carcarchu, it's really a personal choice of the author and what they want. If you don't wanna do it cause you think your story would suffer, that's totally fine. But personally and a lot of other creators agree, id rather potentially risk a slight decrease of my impact to protect some people.

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

You see, in poetry, it works like this: you find a journal that suits your poetry, you submit it, you don't get published, and you cry yourself to sleep. Repeat twenty odd times until you get accepted somewhere. Then, you get published there and you tend not to worry about target audiences and stuff yourself. 'Tis a foreign world to me!

RebelVampire

Yeah I agree that I think at the end its a personal choice cause you'll never please everyone whether you do or don't use warnings

carcarchu

i'm thinking about my experience reading those two series and being blown away by the sudden tone shift and really liking one of those series because of it. but then i think about my experience with madoka where i actually started watching it BECAUSE i saw a spoiler about the twist and it piqued my interest. i still enjoyed madoka but i wonder how my experience with it would have been different if i went in blind

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

@carcarchu , I'm with you. It really depends on what you can do, I think. If it's available to those who need it without expressly being there for those who don't want spoilers (An optional CW of sorts), that could work.

carcarchu

i like the idea of optional cw

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

I don't know if it's an idea that could work, though, as I'm not experienced with web-comics. @Deo101 [Millennium] , your thoughts?

Deo101 [Millennium]

On a personally coded site you could probably with a lot of effort make something like that work, but that's not really so much an option on hosts

Tapas has a mature toggle where that specific page says "this contains mature content" or something, but everyone sees it

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

If it's personally coded, it should be fairly easy with a small bit of javascript, right?

Deo101 [Millennium]

And for other sites it's not an option at all other than for the entire series as a before you enter sort of deal

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

I personally would put warnings Because some chapters deal with traumatic subject matter and I’ve had friends see them and warn me about those However I wouldn’t just do content warnings for something like swearing

Deo101 [Millennium]

I don't think you could code it easily, at least not with the systems I'm using.

Again the best solution I've come up with is at the end of the previous update, so people can skip over it easier and it doesn't interrupt flow the same way

carcarchu

the easiest way to do it on smth like webtoons would just to put some text on ur page that says something like "optional content warning for the next page in description, read at your own risk" but again that would spoil a potential twist

Deo101 [Millennium]

Honestly like Doesn't the twist just happen at the warning then instead of at the panel

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

I think the real solution is to just not write anything.

Deo101 [Millennium]

Like it's not spoiling it it's just moving it a few lines up

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Don't even write the webcomic. Best solution.

Deo101 [Millennium]

And content warnings don't say who or how

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Perfection.

carcarchu

i might be miffed if i read TWIST INCOMING and then had to wait a week to actually see it

Deo101 [Millennium]

Just a general, vague, "what"

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Say there's triggering content, but don't say where or what. Put it on the last page too.

carcarchu

but it could potentially drum up interest like WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN NEXT WEEK

Deo101 [Millennium]

Yeah that's what I mean

carcarchu

idk could go either way

Deo101 [Millennium]

Not like there's a twist!

Just hey things get intense

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

I don't know, it could still be triggering. I think we should just write no webcomic at all.

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Hmmmmm I never thought of that

But what if people forget about the trigger and just jump right in

carcarchu

if they forget the trigger isn't that their fault and not the creator?

Deo101 [Millennium]

People who have the trigger will remember

carcarchu

they were given ample warning

Deo101 [Millennium]

And if they do not then I did what I could

Sorry but I have a specific trigger of people watching someone sleep, I've had two people warn me their comics include it, and I remember. And that was like a year ago

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

My stupid sense of humour aside, I do agree with Deo and Carcarchu. If you forget the trigger, that's your own fault. The author making that information available is one thing, but they aren't there to hold your hand.

carcarchu

oh man that's a super common trope deo that must be rough

Deo101 [Millennium]

Yeah but it's cool

Like I know it's a common trope and it's not really one you can see coming or anything :/ so it's cool

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

I think warnings are helpful tho if u be general like it contains a thing but u dont kno what it is till u read it

Like doe me it was doki doki lit club i didn't took seriously till it hit me and im like O

carcarchu

with dokidoki i knew about there WAS a twist but i didn't know exactly what it is so i was still shocked by it when it happened

Deo101 [Millennium]

Yeah like "Graphic violence" isn't a spoiler especially if you're already like 3 pages into a fight scene

carcarchu

but again they warned about it pretty vigilantly in the beginning before u play dokidoki? i'm not really sure how you could miss it?

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Yeah.

In all seriousness, I like the About page option / optional CW, but I realize that might be impossible in a lot of scenarios.

Maybe put in the description of the first page "OPTIONAL CW BELOW" for example for those who want it?

Deo101 [Millennium]

Yeah, or the page before. Only concern is people not reading it, but then again that kind of falls under the "their responsibility" section

kayotics

I’ve put one warning in before, but I kept it to promo images (so like social media update images) and in the comic description a few pages before. My reasoning was: it was tonally different & darker from the rest of the comic, but I didn’t put the warning in the pages because of the reader is paying attention, the fact that its coming is pretty obvious. Who knows if I did the right thing it handled it correctly, but I really struggled with figuring out what to do

Deo101 [Millennium]

Another concern is that some comics will run for years, decades even, and so its sometimes impossible to know at the beginning what might need to be warned for.

I think that's good Kay.

It's unobtrusive and gives the people who need it what they need

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Optional warning on the page before, then?

Deo101 [Millennium]

Yeah that's what I said earlier I was kinda planning on doing if it ever became necessary

kayotics

That’s essentially what it was. I think I wrote a caveat that the warning was a spoiler

Deo101 [Millennium]

That makes sense

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Hmmm if you’re doing it on the page before How specific should the warning be

kayotics

I know a lot of people don’t read page descriptions, especially when binging, so I’m banking on the context of the chapter being the biggest warning

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Like do you just say optional warning?

kayotics

What I did is I said something about the the content of the next page without getting into too much detail

Deo101 [Millennium]

I see things like "warning: graphic violence, sexual content, substance abuse," etc. Stuff like that

kayotics

Yeah. Mine was graphic violence or gore or something

Deo101 [Millennium]

Where it doesn't say who or how or anything, just a vague what

Which usually, the context of the scene is around that kind of a theme anyways where we can tell it's coming

So a content warning is more like "this does get turned up to an 8 here"

Though it can be a surprise where Something like what Kay did is really good

Like okay so spoilers but be warned

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

B'y, turn it up to at least eleven. Go big or go home.

Deo101 [Millennium]

I'm on a 1-8 scale

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

But what about the saying? Heresy!

kayotics

I think in the context of my comic it felt like, to me, that I was turning it up to 8 from a 1 or 2. It’s not the MOST GRAPHIC thing I’ve ever seen, but with the entirety of the rest of the work it’s tonally different, which is why I needed the warning

My comic, at its worst, usually just sees some curses and cartoon violence.

This was, like, full on blood and gore

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

I jumped straight into 12 at one point for mine whoops

kayotics

So I think context of the work is important with a warning as well

Deo101 [Millennium]

Yeah, I'm usually around a 1-2 too. I've got pg-13 in my description and if I'm ever toeing the edge of it, I'm gonna warn about it

kayotics

If you have a violent or heavy comic already, warnings for each page is ridiculous. It’s when you turn it up that you should mention something

Deo101 [Millennium]

Yeah exactly

DanitheCarutor

Aaah you know, I don't put warnings on my pages, because practically half the comic would have CWs due to the focus on upsetting themes. There was one instance where I did put one up for a page containing a lot of queerphobic language presented in a way that was jarring, and potentially triggering for people who've experienced something like that. Although I've somewhat regretted singling out that one page since the comic from that point only gets worse, in hindsight that one instance isn't bad enough to warrant a warning. I'll probably take it down once I stop being lazy. In general I feel a page-by-page warning is best for comics that don't normally have heavy stuff, it makes sense to warning for violence if that's not a normal thing in your comic, it might shock readers too much otherwise. As far as content, everyone has different sensitivity levels (someone put a CW up once for a character being yelled at by his dad), personally I would only use CWs for excessive violence/abuse, blood, mental illness, suicide, rape, gore, slurs and/or substance abuse. I've gotten a lot of mixed reception on warnings, there are people who want them up, in detail, on every page with potentially upsetting content. People who want them chapter by chapter, some like detail, some want a general warning. Then there are people who don't want any warnings either due to them being too spoilery, or they feel it ruins the immersion. I went for a warning in a pop-up on my main site and leaving a list in my description on other sites, mostly for the non-spoiler crowd and because of what I said before about practically half my comic being potentially triggering.

There are two chapters coming up where I'll be putting up a general warning banner at the start of the chapter, with a hidden list of triggers in the author's notes and an option to read a safer summarized version at the end of each chapter, rather than forcing everyone to read the whole thing. Just because the content will be really difficult for some in presentation and/or subject matter, and I don't want to outright distress anyone... at least without them understanding what they're getting into.

Like, even compared to how my comic already is the next chapters will be really upsetting... for some people.

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

It's not bad if people are upset or distressed. Like, full on disassociation from PTSD, obviously not, but I think these CWs are for them, not Alice Smith the average woman. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

So, I feel like, because of that, the general approach is best. Adding a CW for someone getting yelled at by their father is too spoiler-y/specific in my mind.

carcarchu

i really like dani's approach with the summary at the end for people who want to know what happened but can't stomach actually seeing the nitty gritty

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Here’s the problem tho...my series literally deals with trauma healing

So there’s going to be mentions of...going to therapy, friends talking about it

Not the actual trauma itself

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Yeah, I wouldn't bother with CWs there.

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

But I’m really worried that if I have to put up trigger warnings every time...a lot of pages will have that warning

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

People know what they're getting in for.

If you're going to read a comic about healing from trauma...don't be surprised at content that's not very fun.(edited)

DanitheCarutor

Yeah, my warnings are specifically for the mentally ill, people who've been in abusive situations and such. I don't want to end up bring back certain experiences, at least without them knowing what they're getting into.

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Hmmm in that case I might have to put it in the summary itself then

That there’s trauma healing Of course it’s also about humor and slice of life, but I’ll add it in just in case

Would it help to get sensitivity readers to take a gander look?

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

I mean, in my mind, a general synopsis of the basic plot is a good idea for a lot of stories so long as you aren't spoiling anything.

DanitheCarutor

Me? Nah, I mean, I should but it wouldn't change my decisions since my story is really tight and changing stuff would end up changing everything.

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

In this case, trauma-healing seems to be a part of that plot.

So, you know, if it's mentioned, I think that's blaringly obvious at that point to people that "B'ys, there may be some triggering shit here", y' know?

DanitheCarutor

Oh, I totally misread the convo. Lol I mean, you could get a sensitivity reader if you want to be on the safe side, but if you're writing from experience and you've done research I don't see a problem with not having one.

carcarchu

having read the first few chapters of shadow's comic trauma healing was not an aspect that i picked up from it(edited)

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Sensitivity reader?

Joichi [Hybrid Dolls]

I agree, I get more light heart tone with Shadow's story, but I know stuff ahead of time(edited)

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Oh nooo

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

maybe the aspects will come up as the comic progresses shadow

DanitheCarutor

My comic is also about trauma and healing, and while I haven't experienced all the things my characters have, I did do a ton of research and talked to people. Although my comic is a vent comic so most of it is based off my experiences.

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

I've just put general content warnings in the about page and appropriately rated my comic for its content. There will be things that are written thar i have no idea that could be triggering to people that exsist in a lot of media, it almost becomes impossible to sort through. And with the amount of content to sift through that would/wouldn't be sensitive to certain topics or just generally unaware, its tricky. If there is a reader with a potentially sensitive trigger, i would hope they could get a friend to do a read through if possible, but rarely have i seen comics go right into topics that would need such a hand to do so. Stories have descriptions and ratings for that reason, you're not going to find insane violence in Pokemon type stories, so the author has that responsibility of rating it correctly is what im getting at

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Sorry, what's a sensitivity reader?

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

A sensitivity reader is like, a beta reader who specifically checks whether your work is offensive/ insensitive (e.g. when you're wondering "is my portrayal of this ethnic group offensive/ignorant?")

carcarchu

i think a sensitivity reader is for when ur writing a story that includes a particular cultural or ethnic group that ur NOT part of and u want to avoid making your story culturally insensitive

Joichi [Hybrid Dolls]

Ooh Dani, is it Guide to Unhealthy Relationship? Your comic often stand out to me. I knew what I was getting into when I read it

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

I was a sensitvity reader for someone who was writing a viet american and keii pretty much sums it up

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

That's a thing? Who does that? Ethnic Studies professors?

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

And it's not just for ethnic groups

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

I gave suggestions to add and avoid if ya writing a character from a certain ethnic group or marginalized group

like LGBT+, persons with disabilities etc

carcarchu

ethnic groups is the first thing i thought of but yes

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

No, not ethnic studies professors.

Members of the marginalized group.

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

yep

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

So if you're writing a trans character, you probably want a sensitivity reader who is trans

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

yep!

carcarchu

example the mangaka of golden kamuy has an ainu consultant who is ainu but i'm not sure if having a consultant is quite the same thing?(edited)

DanitheCarutor

@Joichi [Hybrid Dolls] Yeah, it is. I'm glad you were able to know! I try to make it obvious since CWs are pretty much the main themes of my comic. xD

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

i think so

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

A consultant can apply to sensitivity readers, yes, but goes beyond that

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

like the mangaka saught to reprsent ainus too

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

I know an MMA comic with an MMA consultant, for example

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

But couldn't two members of that group, say, Jews, say completely different things? How can you guess the information to be reliable based on their simply being a part of that group? Surely, there are things people look for when hiring these people?

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

I have artist friends who are my sensitively reader and one friend who has had experience with abuse So they help me with what’s good and what’s not to write about

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

It's still gonna be WAY better than not getting any, Page.

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

I mean yeah but in that instance hearing from another perspective at least one person helps

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

At least you can be aware of possible....differences

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

And people who have experience as sensitivity readers know some common issues to look for, as well.

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

yeah

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Or cross reference

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

yep

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

It could be worse if the information is unreliable. What sort of qualifications does one look for?

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

like for me, reping viet folks and telling that to those saught viet rep in their comics

I told them "don't you freaking dare add tropes about the vietnam war I'm gonna come over to your house"

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Friend of mine was a trauma survivor that I witnessed first hand

I suppose that qualifies!

But I think it helps to ask around

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

This stems from writers writing what they think an experience/ person group is without doing research and just being ignorant and offensive and a call for ppl to do better

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

yeah like those stories should be left to the group experienced it instead

imo

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

TBH even when you do a ton of research on your own, a sensitivity reader can help you catch things that you never even thought of researching because you were unaware It Was A Thing

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

like I still read some stories then they throw like the nam joke

and i'm like "I'm droppin this"

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

Yea I don't get cis ppl writing about the trans experience. Its not ur story

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

agreed ya

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Hmmm a lot of artists write from experience

Perhaps if you need a sensitivity reader for say...being bi for example

Maybe find an artist who themselves is bi(edited)

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

like don't write how they got there, but write the experience they gonna deal with in the comic

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Because you get double: you get someone who’s bi and also someone who knows how to work the medium

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

like i doubt cis persons have the nuance for trans folk, same goes for non-poc thinking is okay to do weird nuance things with poc

like lmao idk that's a pet peeve of mine if someone is writing an asian character and really just

"yea he's asian, idk what nationality but its there."

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

Im not into someone who isn't a minority writing about a minority experience as a personal preference, but the sensitivity readers aren't exclusive to that. There was an example in story help in this server where someone asked about writing for a certain group of ppl and wanted feedback

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

I...remember that krispy

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

yeah

carcarchu

i get what you're saying Tuyetnhi but i don't want authors to NOT include any representation just because they're scared of doing it wrong

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Several people warned him Including me

DanitheCarutor

A good example of sensitivity readers is Moana. The directors were old white guys, but they got Hawaiians to look over the script to make sure it wasn't disrespectful to the culture, or totally out of left field, since the tribe in the movie is based on Hawaiian tribes. Even though I didn't have sensitivity readers I still sought out people who experienced certain mental illnesses, medical professionals and mental health professionals willing the share their experiences and knowledge on the subjects I'm tackling before starting the comic.

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

ye and I get that, I mean like if they trying to do extreme nuance takes

leave that for folks who experienced that

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

Asscreed games used to do the same too

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

I ain't againist that kind of rep, but I have a paricular idea how to go about it that's all lol

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

Tho i don't know if they were successful

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

What's wrong with someone writing a character who is transgender if they're not transgender? There's a lot of good research done on transgender issues both medical and societal as well as a lot of written record. I also don't see the issue with writing an ethnic minority as a non-minority. "Far Beyond the Stars" was written by white men and it speaks about racial issues brilliantly. Consultants on the intricacies of culture, I 100% understand, though, for your narratives; that does make sense. Professors are hired by filmmakers and writers for just that IIRC.

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

Sensitivity readers would not be a thing if people were not allowed to write characters outside of their own identity. Nobody's advocating that

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

carcarchu

white people can write on poc's issues fine. but i have a problem when they act like they know more than the people who have experienced it first-hand

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

Yep that's what I mean cara

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

As long as you’re respectful about it

And open to changing ideas

RebelVampire

Ok Im gonna step in here now and say we need to take a step back perhaps cause I feel this convo might be becoming too heated.

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Heated?

I think you're misreading. I don't believe anybody here is heated over anything. I didn't know there was an argument, honestly. Is there? Am I losing my mind here?

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

Also these are instances that have been brought to light bc ppl want better rep from authours too. My last point on that!!

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

I don't think anyone's angry, but this is an extremely sensitive/ heavy topic so we're all treading carefully!

carcarchu

i'm with page i thought it was all very civil

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Remarkably so, frankly.

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

agreed

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Usually these things spawn a lot of arguments. It's refreshing to see people, well, not do that.

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

ye lol

RebelVampire

It is but this is the sort of topic where it can quickly hit the boiling point in a single message. And I've been seeing some warning signs in this convo. By all means if everyone can keep it civil, please continue. Consider this more a warning that right now, if you're getting angry, please step away from the convo cause I don't want to have to mute or ban anyway.

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

aight

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Warning signs? I really am losing my mind.

DanitheCarutor

Let me know if I've said or will say something that might be insensitive. I try to be respectful, but I'm overly comfortable with uncomfortable topics and can be like a bull in a china shop sometimes.(edited)

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

Its just a sensitive topic, page

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

same with me, but i'm also speaking from experience as sensitivity reader too.

so yea lol

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Oh yeah, on most servers, when this comes up, you have those who take the opportunity to say white people should die, then the ones who say the same about people of colour. It all devolves.

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

what the

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Oh, b'ys, Discord is a wild place.

Joichi [Hybrid Dolls]

I agree with Keii, these are sensitive topics, I'm reading each one carefully without jumping into a fight

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

I mean yeah, I been on discord since 2015 lol

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Gosh, I've been on it for years too! Seems so long ago I first came here!

Time flies, eh?

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

still like, I find it kinda ridiculous someone is willing to jump like that

but yeah er, the topic at hand lol

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

It doesn't need to go to that ridiculous extent to offend people, so I agree with Rebel on that we need to continue to be careful

Eilidh (Lady Changeling)

(going to step out now but good convo y'all)

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Offer people a bit of the word "race" and soon it turns into Nuremberg.

Good talking to you, mate!

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Goodnight Eilidh!

Also I’m actually new on discord

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

I think that its a good practice that writers today are more sensitive to the readers. Not in a hand holding way, but in a responsible way where their work is properly tagged and rated and the consistency of such content is a warning as well (like danis comic) It's important to want to improve the reading experience for many and keeping in mind that some topics need to be handled with some more care

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

ye agreed!

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

In my field, I think it's a contest on how much emotion you can get out in one breath with gleeful abandon to how the reader feels.

carcarchu

but a problem with that is sometimes it feels like writers are held up to impossibly high standards and that they can't have ANY inkling whatsoever of any content that might possibly be construed as "problematique" by the purity police. the degree to which some authors are scrutinized is unreasonable and i think it often stems from having to be seen as a "pure" representation of whatever it is they are representing

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

Sometimes it's not even that the standards are "too high"

DanitheCarutor

@FeatherNotes(Krispy) Lol if the word limit allows it, every self-promo of my comic is plastered with age and content warnings, dang it!

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

There will ALWAYS be those standards, they were always there. Ppl just didn't have that voice. I would not be worried about writing however, as i def see a problem with the purity thingie going around.

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

I think carcarchu is talking about something very specific, Feather?

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

there will be some rep be messy and rip that's part of being human and making mistakes

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

There was an article talking about the direction of art and the consumers of such that covered this topic about the purity thing that i wanna findd

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

like everyone can't be a saint

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

like when an ownvoices writer gets pitchforks and torches because their portrayal wasn't wholesome enough, and you are only allowed to write happy and wholesome stories about that group(edited)

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

keii omg

yeah i'll die in the torches that's ok

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

Wait what

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

Yeah it's a thing

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

Thats a thing

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

What...????

carcarchu

yes that's what i'm talking about keii

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

What

carcarchu

i also have a video about it

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

They're more upset at the story direction then

Not a purity thing

carcarchu

no it's a purity thing

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

I agree with Carcarchu on this one. I feel like some people would be up in arms if I wrote a story where a white guy is the protagonist and a black guy is the antagonist. Some people just see race.

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

I know several LGBTQ peeps who are afraid to post their dark LGBTQ fiction because it might draw the attention of "only wholesome content allowed!!!" people

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

WhgtttattTTT

nooo

DanitheCarutor

Oooh yeah, the puritans/sanitizers out there, they're a scary bunch. I've had a run in with a few people who've said my comic shouldn't be allowed to exist due to the content... and I've been called queerphobic... and that my comic is queerphobic torture porn... and other fun stuff. It happens.

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

WHHHHHHAAAAAAAT

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

You'd be surprised how common this is.

RebelVampire

Yeah I have to say I've seen it a lot too

carcarchu

where have u been krispy that you haven't seen this?

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

I have been in my silent cave apparently

I also haven't been in fandoms for years if that helps lol

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

You living like Patrick the Starfish?

DanitheCarutor

Yeah, we're kind of starting to get back into the olden days of demand for sanitizing art, people who work on darker content or horror get a lot of crap.

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

This is patrick

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

All kidding aside, TL;DR: shit's kind of fucked in some ways.

carcarchu

i've even had run-ins with such people irl... hasnt been the most pleasant. i was once friends (note once) who tried to convince me that i should turn my het romance story into a lesbian one? for no reason other than she preferred to read that kind of content?

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

Ohhbsee thats where im confused

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Imagine if the sexuality were flipped. It would be outrageous.(edited)

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

rip I had a comment a year ago that the main love interest is "too gay to be straight"

and i'm like "excuse u?"

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

"Yeah, make it straight. I don't like gay stuff."

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

How is the relationship dynamic purity in that case?

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

That's not purity police talk anymore, I think

carcarchu

not purity in that specific example feather but it's the same kind of person

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

I’ve also had people come up to me and ask why I don’t write a more lighthearted story

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

It's... a different issue

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

MY GOSHHH

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Or “shadow, your shit is too dark why are you writing about this”

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

So ppl be telling u how to write ur chars now?

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

"Life can only be happy and stuff :(( art can literally only be happyyy"

carcarchu

yeah this same person was also PISSED that there was a gem in steven universe who was "black-coded" and portrayed as a villain even though there were black coded gems who were not portrayed as villains as well

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Sorry Krispy Life be like that

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

Wthhhh

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Black coded?....what series have they been watching carcarchu lol

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

ah dang

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

These ppl have 2 much time on their hands RIP They wanna rip apart media, go after something that deserves it (likethebig2incomicscough)

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

They’re gate keeping(edited)

DanitheCarutor

Ah not too long ago I stumbled across an artist who drew more problematic stuff as a way to cope with trauma, which I guess was something their therapist suggested. Their stuff is pretty messed up, but someone started one of those "call out" videos on them, leading to thousands of people flooding their work with some of the most awful comments along with people trying to shut down their Patreon and social media accounts.

carcarchu

i later found out this person was also a terf so i ended the friendship right there when i found out

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Dani that’s...what the fuck

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

Oh nasty

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

searches up terf Oh...

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

I remember reading one person talking about how presenting "bad ideals" and whatnot in fiction had to be demonstrated to be bad ideals and not work and stuff and so on so forth.

carcarchu

i've seen that too dani

sadly more times than i can count

we all remember what happened to cucumber quest right?

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

It is terrible out there

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

What’s cucumber quest

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

What is cucumber

Quest oop

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

"What is cucumber?": An essay in being Socrates.

carcarchu

long story short cucumber quest was a children's webcomic that was pretty popular but the author got bullied off tumblr for being "problematic"

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

oh no

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Tumblr has a lot of crazies.

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

I like her work

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Oh noooooooooo

I still go on tumblr but I carefully choose my blogs

Because I don’t want this shit

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

(All this being said, I wanna reiterate that just because those terrible pitchforks and torches people exist, doesn't mean all "I find this offensive" voices are invalid. Some things could genuinely be improved!)

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

Also def wanna say that even tho there will be these wolves waiting to tear 'non perfect' media apart, please dont feel like u have to stop writing, ever. Dont be afraid bc of these stories, yall have good heads on ur shoulders and obvs want to share ur experiences and that is something ur allowed to do

carcarchu

fyi she didnt stop making her comic because of the bullying thing, it was a separate, unrelated issue much later(edited)

i hear you keii

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

I find it hilarious of the idea That there are people out there who tell someone not to write stuff like abuse even tho they’ve never experienced it

And the writers themselves have

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Oh, you ain't seen nothin' yet.

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

There was someone who tried to boycott assassins creed 2 bc the main char reminder her of her ex bf

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

omfg

DanitheCarutor

It's really sad and a little terrifying if your work doesn't fit the sanitization standards... Sometimes I think of that "what if" chance just the right person finding my comic and launching a take down campaign on it. Which is why I'm totally fine with staying as a smalltime person in the shadows. Also people don't usually want to even read through my comic, so that's a plus.

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

why lmaoo

oh dang dani that's one fear

but i'm also like "I wonder how folks react to me dealing with that like I ignore them"

would that be a power move or I'd be burning harder?

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Shit I never thought of a takedown campaign

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

It's a genuine fear for the creating community for sure, but ur voice is necessary. Ur story will resonate with ppl, and those who choose to use their time to tear it down obviously have nothing else better to do

DanitheCarutor

@keii’ii (Heart of Keol) Oh yeah, totally! People's feelings are super valid, and someone writing sensitive content should be open to listening to other people. I'm just talking about the extremists who think anything remotely uncomfortable shouldn't exist. Like, no.

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Man, nowadays, people just throw shit and false accusations and all the rest at people because they don't like them and their stuff. They're truly pathetic.

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

I used to be so scared of a certain chapter in my comic bc its so violent at one point. It kept me up at night bc of these take down campaigns were a such a thing. But then i remember the content i enjoyed that inspired my own and im like Aint no one cancelling FMA for the niina part!

I mean unless its a topic that's super insensitive to a group or people/topic, which i know you're handling with sensitivity and grace, i wouldn't stop

carcarchu

this is a little bit sensitive so i'm going to put it in a spoiler there was another incident where an author received constant messages to kill themselves for writing gls when they did not at that time identify as a woman but then the author later did a whole comic about how how complicated her relationship with her own gender and sexuality was and that she de-transitioned and now once again considered herself to be both cis and lesbian and all those comments about her needing to kill herself for writing gl were so narrow-minded because you can never really know an author's situation if you aren't in their shoes

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

What's "gl"?

DanitheCarutor

Lol yeah, I do get worried a lot, especially about the upcoming chapters. Although that's not going to stop me from pushing forward, and telling the story how I want to tell it. If my online presence is murdered in the process, at least it will die for a good cause... at least good for me because I'll be venting everything out.

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

Whhhh!!! People just gettin into ppls business damn. That's horrible

carcarchu

girl's love

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

GIrl's love?

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

I def see ur story as a personal one with healing and building that will resonate with others Dani. And i think that's very important

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

What's that?

carcarchu

stories about girls loving girls

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

it's a genre that focuses on romantic relationships between girls ye

carcarchu

i really got chills reading that author's comic about her identity especially having seen those comments numerous times on her other comics

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

There was a similar incident except it was with an artist by the name of Zamii for supposedly drawing Steven Universe characters too thin (Yes, she did attempt suicide in the end, though she didn't succeed in her attempt).

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Is...is she okay now?

oh my god Page

I remembered that

The SU writers had to step in

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

oh rip sadly I remember that as well

carcarchu

i think she's doing ok! i'm not sure if that particular comic is still up but i can dm u it if u want shadow

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Yep! Not just the writers, even an executive producer.

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Yes please carcarchu

And I think Rebecca sugar stepped in too? Not sure about that

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

Hopefully this serves as a reminder for all of us to have each others backs in such situations wow

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Another incident was in the Undertale fandom I think. One person gave a cookie to an artist at a convention they didn't like because of the ships they were doing. They author was suspicious, so, they cracked open the cookie. It was filled with needles.

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

WHHHHHHYYYYYYY

carcarchu

oh my god i remember that page, what a horror story

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

........what the FUCK

carcarchu

always be careful about accepting food from events like that

DanitheCarutor

Geez, the thing about the GL author is sad... yet not surprising, and it's sad that I'm not surprised. @FeatherNotes(Krispy) Thank you so much! I went into my comic expecting absolutely no one would like it, so if it resonates with even one person that would be the best surprise. TvT

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

yee haw I love solidarity

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

Yeah, never accept food/drinks from strangers, including "fans"

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

As someone who bakes and deals with food....that is horrifying

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

yeah rip that's horrifying

carcarchu

if it's packaged food like candy it should be safe, but still be careful if u have reason to be suspicious at all

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Remember, if you're suspicious, make them eat it too >:)

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

omgllol

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

And lace it with cyanide.

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

Gosh authours need content warning from readers it seems yikes

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Better safe than sorry.

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

Still not safe to have them eat it too lol

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

I mean, hey, better second degree murder than dead.

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

I can think of some.... ways around that

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

"I'm alergic to needles"

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Give it to their friend

>:)

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Give it to their spouse.

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

And if it’s poison they’ll go down knowing they did it

Make a marvel villain

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

They're called "Widower".

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Page you and I have like minds

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Indeed we do.

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

I'm not comfortable with that -- like, what if their friend or spouse is being abused by them and is seeking to get out of that relationship

LadyLazuli (Phantomarine)

...This conversation is freaking amazing And I’ve never done individual page warnings for my comic - never felt it necessary. Maybe someday someone will yell at me about it, but... meh. The comic never goes into the really deep dark potentially-controversial stuff. So maybe it won’t be an issue. Back to catching up on all of this, WOW.

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

oh god it would be a complicated meSS(edited)

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Oh god okay NO DONT GIVE IT TO THEIR SPOUSE

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

It doesn't matter. They must die for our agenda.

Morality? Pft.

If they're dead, they're no longer in the relationship.

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

I mean @LadyLazuli (Phantomarine) your story is really riveting But I’m not sure if you need warnings? I mean your story deals with...death

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

You see? Widower solves everything.

LadyLazuli (Phantomarine)

@shadowhood (SunnyxRain) I’m not sure! Someone tagged it with ‘limb loss’ elsewhere, which is debatable, haha. It’s something I would almost want others to tag. Sometimes I can’t stretch my mind far enough to imagine a page needing a trigger warning.(edited)

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Wow...the more you learn, huh.

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

Yes- those specific type tags are always going to be elusive to keep track of- ur general rating is just what ur story needs

Def wanna point out too that TV ratings and warnings are what i go by and the most helpful to me as a reader and creator. Also video game warnings too are good to look at if people ever need examples of how to rate comics!

LadyLazuli (Phantomarine)

Yep, ratings are all I need too. In my ‘about’ page I described my comic as “no darker than the darkest stuff in Harry Potter,” but I’m sure someone would still find something extremely dark in that, so... SHRUG

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

Does anyone know of any of the big name comics that put trigger warnings or whatnot in their work? I dont read marvel/dc/etc so ive never seen if they took to rating their comics with any type of warnings?

LadyLazuli (Phantomarine)

I do have kids reading so I want the parents to feel comfortable

DanitheCarutor

Is it weird that I rated my comic based on the level of nudity and lack of sex? Like, "Okay, these people are really naked but not in a sexy way, what is the rating for that?"

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

I'm thinking about snot girl rn and idk if their creators do that tbh other than marketed towards adults

LadyLazuli (Phantomarine)

I read a couple of more-intense things from Image Comics and I’ve never seen any trigger warnings there either

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Hmmm I’m not sure I remember reading Hellboy and not seeing any trigger warnings

carcarchu

krispy, the only time i can recall it is when i read Bradherley's Coach and that was actually put there by the translation team and not the author himself but i will say that the warning was extremely warranted with that one because i consider myself pretty desensitized to traumatic content but even this one really got me with each chapter being traumatic in it's own unique way

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

Do they have ratings on the backs of the books like some manga?

Oh wow ty translation team

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Probably! I’m not sure if DarkHorse comics does it but they do have things like nudity and...portrayals of graphic death

carcarchu

if u read it on a website there is some degree of tagging for the content but i don't think that alone could have accurately prepared someone for what the comic explored

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

I think its clear that by these examples we're all already doing better at being responsible for the content we share and produce.

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

I hope so I wonder if those big name comics received flak about not having trigger warnings

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

I wonder about that too tbh

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

Im sure to a degree? But no where near an indie creator would

Which is a whole other topic

carcarchu

i for one would love more tagging options for webcomics

makes it easier to find whatever niche content you're into!

genres alone just dont do it

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

That could work But there’s also a price to pay; less chance to get readers too

carcarchu

why is it less of a chance to get readers?

Nutty (Court of Roses)

I myself am looking at my Punisher comics, and there's no warnings anywhere, but i feel with an antihero like the Punisher, you go in expecting the gore and violence

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Hmmmmm....I guess my fear is that it’s a double edged sword carcarchu On one hand you can attract the readers you want But on the other hand you can also...possibly drive away readers who are mildly curious Some people need time to get invested in a story

LadyLazuli (Phantomarine)

I guess some people will just avoid some tags no-questions-asked. Hopefully it’s the small minority that the trigger warning will actually help (in terms of anxiety) and not someone who’s writing off the trigger as problematic and will go on a tirade warning other readers about it. I know it goes both ways

carcarchu

oh i wasn't talking about trigger content tagging specifically

i was talking about stuff like being able to tag for example "witches" or "animals" or "music" whatever is a theme in your comic(edited)

guess it wasnt a logical throughline made sense in my head

eli [a winged tale]

I was looking for a universal way to show trigger warnings and came across this article. https://medium.com/@UntoNuggan/trigger-warnings-101-a-beginners-guide-e9fc90c6ba0a I guess for mine I’m thinking to add body horror and violence the more we go through the story... I do like the part about putting the informed consent power back to the reader’s hands

Nutty (Court of Roses)

I put both Fantasy Violence and Alcohol Use as general warnings for my comic. Alcohol is treated in a complex manner in CoR, both in a humorous light and as a way to cope, but I know there are a lot of folks that are triggered by the presence of alcohol.(edited)

Joichi [Hybrid Dolls]

I will be putting trigger warning in my comic but Ive wanted to write about mental health allegories for a long time as a personal self reflection.

I started to feel braver after seeing other creators boldly write about mental health topics in their comics.

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

Whispers the webcomic library is an excellent source and tool to find/avoid tags in comics

Luma does an excellent job with archiving the stories there and i hope yall have applied to have ur comics there too!

Joichi [Hybrid Dolls]

Yes I watch Webcomic library on Twitter, Luma does such a good job curating comics(edited)

LadyLazuli (Phantomarine)

Same! Highly recommended

carcarchu

i think i follow it on twitter but i don't keep up with it

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

They did these tags for my comic(edited)

carcarchu

maybe i should change that

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

Super dedicated and a very great resource for webcomics!!

LadyLazuli (Phantomarine)

I got these! I originally only put down 'limb loss - leg' but 'limb loss - arm' popped up too, and I'm like "You know... that's kinda true." It's a really good resource!

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

OOoh I should check it out

Webcomic library, right?

carcarchu

what's the difference between independent! and independent

LadyLazuli (Phantomarine)

...that's a good question and I don't know the answer, haha

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

“Eventual LGBTQ” yes

Nutty (Court of Roses)

I AGREE!! I'm on Webcomic Library too. Mine is tagged as Mobility Aids since Nocturne uses a cane to walk

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

hmmm how do you add your webcomic onto there?

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

I went thru the process like

you send an email to luma/webcomic libary with a submission form

and she'll add it for u with the tags that are relelated to your comic

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

Luma always puts up submission posts too Check out their tumblr/twitter!

DanitheCarutor

I can't imagine how much time it takes Luma to go through all those webcomics! These are the tags they put for mine:(edited)

They've kept it up pretty well in spite of it not being their cup of tea. The only thing I was ever iffy on was the 'sexual nudity' tag since I didn't intend for that but for the nudity to be uncomfortable/awkward, and I don't like the idea of people going into my comic for sexual arousal, but on well. To each their own, also it may be a presentation mistake on my part.

It's funny because I didn't think about one of my MCs being disabled until seeing this, I had to think for a moment before realizing "Oh yeah, I guess ocular albinism is considered a disability."

Kind of an embarrassing realization on my part.

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

ooo that's a lot of tags

this from my comic

DanitheCarutor

@shadowhood (SunnyxRain) Here is the submission template if you're interested. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1q48tZquhmNoGY_lcsE8FkByF614EISk_Pf3YoQKXYWA/edit?usp=sharing

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

probably not much is tagged since lmao it's 2 chapters in

DanitheCarutor

Haaaah yeah, my comic has a lot of... stuff. It'll probably get even bigger once the next two chapters are finished, if Luma is willing to go through them.

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

ahhh thank you Time to submit

honestly I don't think there'll be a lot for my webcomic, since I just started lol

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

All a good resource regardless! And a good place to find comics to read!

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

fair enough! Also...uhh....

what's nsfw text?

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

snuffysam (Super Galaxy Knights)

like, not safe for work things being talked about in the text of the comic typically sex stuff i imagine

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

or swearing lmao

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

oh god

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

get ready for a rideeeee

snuffysam (Super Galaxy Knights)

since someone saying "violence and gore" in the text wouldn't really count as NSFW lol

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

on my sailor ship lolol

DanitheCarutor

Yeah, NSFW text is swearing, slurs, discussion of NSFW subjects, sexual language I'm guessing. In my case it's the former three, at least I assume as much.

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

..........ohhhh boy

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

mine is just my characters speaking without filter

lol

at least for the begining lolol

snuffysam (Super Galaxy Knights)

but yeah to me the limit for "what to warn people about" is generally dependent on the platform

those are my tags on archive binge

those are my tags on webcomic library (admittedly a bit out of date)

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

lord almighty(edited)

snuffysam (Super Galaxy Knights)

on comic fury the only tag I have is high violence (with no nudity, sexual content, or swearing)

on tapas it's a page-by-page thing so I basically add the tag whenever there's blood on-screen

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

Nsfw is not swearing like bitch, shit fuck Its more slurs i do believe

Also forgive me for swearing on main lol

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

lol

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

OH DANI SAID IT ALREADY

So yes, what dani said

LadyLazuli (Phantomarine)

Yeah I was wondering how deep into curse/slur territory it’d have to go

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

Gjs has swearing in it but its sailor mouth stuff, not slurs

LadyLazuli (Phantomarine)

I’ve got fantasy slurs and I drop those RARELY because they still make me feel weird, haha

Dunno if I could ever commit to IRL ones in anything I do

DanitheCarutor

Yeah, I imagine if swears did count it would be how they're used, like if they were said in a derogatory statement and/or bullying.

But yeah, slurs, definitely. Haaaah

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

I don't think I could ever write about racial slurs either. The only touchy topics I will ever write are those I have experienced. Never experienced true racism so if I wrote about it I would feel like I'm faking knowledge of a huge and personal issue for other people

LadyLazuli (Phantomarine)

Same. I leave that to people who can write about it better. Any discrimination I have in my stories is manufactured by the fantasy world and its own unique circumstances. I have some influence from real-world discrimination, but it's its own thing.

DanitheCarutor

Ah but slurs aren't just race, there are also slurs for gender and sexuality. (The -cough- 'T' and 'F' word.)

Joichi [Hybrid Dolls]

yeah... racial slurs make me uncomfortable, but depends with the fantasy slurs, that could be creative if it's done to show the social issues of that world?(edited)

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

I feel like even if you're only using fantasy slurs (speaking as someone whose comic has a use of a fantasy slur...), you need good understanding of what it's like to be on the receiving end of a slur IRL. This isn't to say "you need [this qualification] to be Allowed to use slurs in your fictional work!" but more like, how to make it resonate with the readers in the right ways, how to make it not gratuitous, etc.

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

I'm still learning myself. Like, I do have some experience dealing with racism toward me, but 1) it's nothing compared to the truly horrific stuff out there, and 2) even on comparable "levels" my experience could be very, very different from someone else's. All we can do is keep trying, keep learning.

Keep listening.

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

I'd had a fair deal of racism and microagression being a native in the US for so long

Joichi [Hybrid Dolls]

exactly, like I experienced childhood racism about my cultural upbringing. But it's different for other people.(edited)

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

it's something that lmao won't go away but ye we have some different perspectives on how we can go about handling it

Joichi [Hybrid Dolls]

When I read a work or watch a film, I can tell if the creator has researched well, if it's racism similar to my experiences. It doesn't matter their background. But it'd be a nicer bonus if this came from a POC creator.(edited)

DanitheCarutor

Yeah, based on that I'm probably not the best person to have characters using slurs. While the slur present is gender based, I have a complicated relationship with... everything that isn't white/cis/het. I'm a mixed race (mom's side(very white passing): German Jewish, black Irish, Scottish, Native American. Dad's side: Native American, Spanish, Mexican.), my mom was raised in a church in a tiny town that was totally against non-white people and race mixing, according to her when I was born people would come to the hospital to gawk at me. I've never been called a slur maliciously, but casually and I never noticed it until I was older after everyone naturally stopped. Every experience and memory I have of slurs has been of the "yikes!", "Woah, you really said that." variety, so I kind of project that energy a little bit in my comic. But in the form of a very yikes casually transphobic character.

For clarity on the cis/het thing, my family was also extremely bigoted but would hide it under casual language, so it never sounded queerphobic until you process what they said.

Not related to me, but I understand needing to experience racism to write it, although I think it can still be accomplished well if the person is empathetic and does a ton of research. Kinda like anything else sensitive, you just need to be really educated on the subject.

Joichi [Hybrid Dolls]

I agree with you Dani. Sadly some creators just don't have that empathy and want to write a fantasy token character. I had awkward story conversations before on race. "what do you think about this ambiguous Asian character? I'm thinking of a Japanese name, sounds Asian enough?" I always cringe inside(edited)

Deo101 [Millennium]

I usually bring in other people to write about those things I haven't experienced. Friends, generous volunteers, etc.

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

I think it's 100% OK to write about things you haven't experienced. I don't think J.K. Rowling experienced being an adolescent male chosen one in a magical college, but she still wrote about it...and made a Hell of a lot of money.

DanitheCarutor

Lol that's why I added in doing research, which I think brainstorming with experienced people counts, you're still educating yourself. I agree with everyone on experience being preferred, although I am on the anti-censorship side with art and storytelling, no matter how cringe it is.

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

ofc i think it's okay, but I personally don't feel comfortable doing it

i even feel a little weird writing male characters

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

If we can only write ourselves and our experiences, we're plain not good writers.

That's my view on the matter.

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

Again, I don't think any of us is advocating Necessary Qualifications To Even Attempt. This is a much more nuanced topic

I've never been a tall beefy dude, but that's what my MC is.

Never been a parent, but I write parents.

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

Yeah, "make the effort to write this well" is very different from "don't write this"

And there's plenty of people criticizing JKR for how she handles specific topics...

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

yeeeeah....

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Including me.

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

JKR is probably not a good example to bring up as a positive example for this topic, simply because of the issues that can REALLY distract from why she's being used as an example.

Joichi [Hybrid Dolls]

I like writing male character more often since I'm less stressed about writing the opposite gender, I know it's my comfort zone. I based some of the boys on my guy friends and have fun with the story. Though I'm making a difference by insisting on adding women more and pushing for strength and vulnerability.(edited)

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

J.K. turned out to be lacking a few brain-cells, but my point is that you can very easily write foreign experiences; every good writer does that all the time (as you all do yourselves!) and I think that extends to writing characters no matter the colour of their skin, sexuality, or gender identity.

DanitheCarutor

True, I haven't seen gatekeeping here, I'm just giving my thoughts on it. A while back on another server I read a conversation where some people were dissing the person who made Magical Boy on Tapas because they're not trans, even though they did a lot of research beforehand. I was kind of reflecting that, but I also empathize with people who feel uncomfortable with people who've never experienced a certain form of oppression writing about it.

Pff I've never been a janitor, but dang it! You can't stop me from having a janitor character!

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Janitors are the coolest guys, I'm telling ye.

Most chill people in the land.

B'ys, they can get along with anyone, I swear.

DanitheCarutor

They're like real life superheroes.

Deo101 [Millennium]

We're not saying not to write other skin tones, gender, etc. Just to be sensitive about it and aware that you can't extrapolate someone else's life experiences from your own, you have to ask

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

there's a difference between writing a janitor and writing a touchy topic like racism. Anyways, even if I was writing a janitor I'd do a ton of research on the job

Deo101 [Millennium]

Sorry I use a cane and I can tell when people didn't ask someone who uses a cane what it's like. It goes the same for a lot of things

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

I'm not saying you are saying that! Simply addressing something I've encountered before.

I've used a cane before, though temporarily. It was...a pain in the ass, honestly.

Well, more like a pain in my leg. And my arm.

DanitheCarutor

@Eightfish (Puppeteer) Sorry, I was joking since Keii was talking about writing muscular guys and parents. It would be sad if I didn't know the difference between racism and an occupation. Lol

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

In any case, I don't think that writing somebody of an ethnic minority necessitates much on its own. Delving into racial issues, sure, yeah that requires a lot, but I wouldn't say that of writing the character itself.

I'd say the same of sexuality and gender identity if you're not delving into the respective issues thereof. If you know what you're doing, i don't think there's too much to it.

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

@Page, Rambler Extraordinaire! Yeah, I think that's what a lot of us are saying. There is a difference between writing a character who's [this identity] vs writing a story that's all about exploring that identity.

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

The latter requires a lot more research, agreed.

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

oh i know @DanitheCarutor , you write a lot of lgbt characters after all. just adding my thoughts, not diagreeing

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

"If you know what you're doing" is the tricky part though

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Well, that's not that difficult in most cases. There is a sea of available literature.

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

There's.... the problem of marginalized folks pointing out concerns in a work, and non-marginalized people dismissing their concerns because they don't see the issue.

Deo101 [Millennium]

It's also really easy to ask a person for their real life experience

People are usually, in my experience, more than willing to take some time and answer a few questions.

DanitheCarutor

On the Magical Boy thing, like I said, it wasn't you all, it was people on a different server and I wanted to bring it up since it's related to the topic. To do a more serious comparison, I've never had psychosis or schizophrenia but I'm writing a character like that. I did a lot of research beforehand though, like, A LOT.

Deo101 [Millennium]

Like for disabilities it's very easily to find all kinds of Medical information, but almost no first hand experience is available. So what happens is people are very accurate medically, but then extrapolate what living like that is like and still end up with a disengenuous story

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Surely, there's available literature on the subject? I'm sure that I could find some.

Deo101 [Millennium]

And Dani, same with me and schizophrenia. It's for a future comic, but I've been researching it and interviewing people for years now to be sure I get a story that would at the very least not hurt them

I mean I would think a better resource would be YouTubers with those things, actually.

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

For a lot of topics, it's easier to find a firsthand experiencer willing to talk to you than to find some existing literature on the exact thing you didn't know you needed

Deo101 [Millennium]

Yeah like My condition is very rare and the best you could find on it for firsthand experience is like. A forum that's super old and inactive

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

I still remember one review where the person said "I have a certain disability, and I'm sure this author doesn't have it -- but they know someone who does -- because they're describing the visible symptoms with uncanny accuracy, but are guessing all wrong about how it feels/how it affects your life in invisible ways."

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

That's a huge pitfall, I feel. There can be a big sensitive thing that you aren't even aware is a thing; therefore, you don't think to do any research on that facet.

Deo101 [Millennium]

It's really easy to make a post on social media like "hey can I interview people with ___ for a writing project?"

DanitheCarutor

Openness depends on the topic. It's really hard getting people's experiences with certain mental illnesses, also the small number of people suffering from it. I had a really hard time finding people willing to talk about certain things, especially professionals since they usually don't want to talk to you without paying money for it.

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

^ That's also a good point.

Deo101 [Millennium]

That's true

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

I think we're going back to the purity thing. You can't expect someone to truly represent the "invisible ways" it affects you very well considering they're...invisible.

Deo101 [Millennium]

You can ask

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

But I would definitely recommend trying to reach out to people with firsthand experience, and seeing if that's an option.

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

I've been able to shoot emails off to professors before for questions. They're usually happy to answer a question or two.

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

This is not at all like the purity thing IMO.

DanitheCarutor

A decent resource I found was a mental health forum, you have to get accepted to join, but it's basically everyone talking about their experiences with being mentally ill or being a volunteer for mental health care centers. Unfortunately there aren't any psychologists on the forum... Just nurses and caregivers on the non-ill side.

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

Again, there's a spectrum here...there's all kinds of possibilities between "how dare your extensive research have a single imperfection" and "wow, you didn't even try".

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

Yeah, and it's not even a single lane spectrum! It's very complex and multifaceted/multilayered

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

And we're talking about this for marginalized people, but it can apply to any group/culture/situation you're not part of -- just look at any story where a European writer has an American character drive across the US in a couple hours

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

Lmaoooo

chalcara [Nyx+Nyssa]

Or americans write Germans getting lost in their woods.

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Alright, multilayered? How so? It's a spectrum from "B'y, you're writing about a black man in the 1700s being exalted in America" to "Why am I reading this ethnic studies textbook?"

chalcara [Nyx+Nyssa]

Naw mate, pick a direction and you‘ll find a street or at least marked trail in half an hour.

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

Okay, I can't answer that without draining my energy reserve for the next 20 weeks

DanitheCarutor

Lmao! As dumb as it sounds, something like that can also apply to animals. Like the thing Disney did with lemmings, and how Jaws portrayed sharks which caused this spike in shark hunting because everyone thought they were these monsters.

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Would it be possible to summarize?

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

We've talked about a bunch of different aspects already -- like, how well did you research the medical symptoms vs. how well did you represent the day-to-day experience

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

No (at least for me), precisely because it's so complex and multilayered.

RebelVampire

This is a good convo and I am happy everyone has remained civil. That being said, I kind of feel it's gone a bit off-topic for an extended time regarding this week's question

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

it's hard to know what's worth a mature tag or not when even the websites themselves are vague. I started off with a character having the trait of cursing a lot, but then dropped that as i became paranoid of wts content guidelines

but i've gotten a decent audience since then and wts hasn't deleted my pages or anything so(edited)

i have no idea what the line is

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

Webtoons is extra mysterious

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

I host my own stuff, so I just put warnings up when a specific storyline is going to be more intense than the comic's average

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

because their comment system will auto censor words like "vague" (it becomes "***ue" or something like that) so you'd think they really don't want ANY cursing?

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

yes! that has happened to me

Deo101 [Millennium]

Su***ious

Is one I see a lot

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

someone commented "sperm" on my pages once so i know wt doesn't censor that at least

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

...is that why the kids these days are just saying "sus" now

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

******in's Creed

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

i don't understand what is the swear in suspicious?

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

lmao

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

It's a racial slur in some regions

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

ohhhh

i know what you mean

yeah rip

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

An auto-censor like that just makes a normal discussion forum seem 100x more scandalous/insulting than it actually is...

Deo101 [Millennium]

I got used to talking around then from mmo games ahahaha

Those chats that squelch you if you say one curse or something close to it by accident

But! On topic, I think asking whether something is too mature is a good idea, having a kind of beta audience or sensitivity reader kind of thing.

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

I think it's fine to make your own judgment calls as long as you're consistent, so readers know the same things will be reliably warned for

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

a beta reader wouldn't neccessarily know more about wt than me though

when it comes to blurry content guidelines that is

might help with mature or triggering content

because your tolerance might be different from other people's

Deo101 [Millennium]

Oh I mean like "hmmm I think this is a bit much. Do you think this is a bit much?"

And they go "na this seems like pg 13 to me." Or "hmmm I think it could probably freak someone out you might wanna lightly warn."

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

it's a blurry line because sometimes an arm getting ripped off stylishly is less triggering than a realistic depiction of like, a fingernail being ripped off

just gotta go by feeling, i suppose

Deo101 [Millennium]

Yep

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

I agree that this is a case where there's no reason to think a beta reader has better judgment than you have yourself

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

yeah my friends are all like me

DanitheCarutor

WTs is weird. I used to have my comic up there totally uncensored, they featured it on the front page for about a month, but when someone flagged the nudity they wouldn't put the pages back up. Like... you think they would have known already? The nude scene is within the first 20 pages.

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

and don't think much of gore and swearing and such

fuck dani don't say that you're making me paranoid again

RebelVampire

Classic it only takes one person to ruin something for everyone else

DanitheCarutor

@Eightfish (Puppeteer) From what I've seen of your nude scenes, I don't think anyone will really notice. I didn't even notice until you brought it up one time on here... or maybe it was in the Webcomic Updates server.

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

i hope so but as rebel said only takes one staff member

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

Can i just chime in to say that the auto censoring with what y'all have said about WT really turns me off from that platform. Not into a site having that power, regardless of who uses it. It's like we said here, be responsible with your work with tags, but that extra hand in the pot makes me think of tumblr style censors and im not a fan.

Does tapas do that too?

Deo101 [Millennium]

Webtoon doesn't really have tags, it just has a toggle for a series being mature

They both do

So they don't get removed from app stores

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

Ye i guessed as much

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

Tapas has this feature that lets creators tag individual episodes as mature. BUT there is an additional layer -- if your comic is too mature even with the mature tag, they're forced to hide it from their iOS app, due to Fruit Company regulations.

DanitheCarutor

WT is trash, and the reader base is made up of children, don't go there! Tapas is pretty alright, they're fine with my comic being uncensored there, and they don't censor comments.

Yeah, there's what Keii said about the Apple app too.

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

And it's up to Fruit Company to determine whether it's too mature or not. (Mine is too mature because of body hair, and I was told they'd put it back on the app if I erased the body hair in a specific episode)

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

Still not a fan of that kind of censorship. And i agree with dani

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

ohh yeah i remember that body hair thing kei

DanitheCarutor

Oh crap, were we not supposed to name drop the app?

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

Excuse me body hair

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

Webtoons on the other hand will straight up remove any too mature episodes across all of their platform...s (site, iOS, android) if Google says "this is too mature"

Deo101 [Millennium]

I don't think it's censorship, it's more not allowing certain things on your platform

They're not saying you can't make it just that you can't post it there

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

It is censorship U cant post ur piece in its intended form

Like....body hair Wtf

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

I think that depends on how you define censorship

In any case, it's definitely not ideal.

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

That is so .... Like Way to show what standards they want

DanitheCarutor

Gah the body hair thing. Thinking about it, I never got contacted by Tapas about my comic's mature content, but they probably knew trying to censor it would be a lost cause. Lol They probably just threw straight off the app.

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

That's horrible Dani

DanitheCarutor

Naah, I don't mind. It's still allowed on the desktop site, and that's the only version I use so it's like nothing ever happened.

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

Still a gross move on their part. Not enthused with the passion to appease app stores with removing content that isn't 'suitable', but that is a diff convo.

DanitheCarutor

As one last derailing bit, if you're ever looking for a hosting site, Comicfury is the best for mature and adult work. They don't censor ANYTHING! Except hate-speech.

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

Oh i keep seeing more and more talk about that! Can i ask u more about it in shop talk?

DanitheCarutor

Sure, go ahead! I'll answer to the best of my abilities.

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

Wow

Just caught up

Back to the warnings thing...(edited)

In my experience, there are certain reasonable leaps in seriousness in comics, and other times when it appears jarring and out of nowhere, but in that case, I think it's simply bad writing, unless of course, it's a genre like horror.

But I think an author deciding to put content warnings should be up to the author on a case by case basis.

There are simply too many variables to come up with specific ground rules

As an example, I have a scene later on in my comic where a child dies. I don't show how it happens, but I was planning on showing the body afterwards. Nothing too gruesome, but definitely some broken bones. And I have been told completely opposite things, that it should be okay because I'm not showing the actual death, and on the other side, that showing the body at all is terrible, and I shouldn't do it. My concern is... If I don't show the body, how will the readers know that the child is dead? And how will I show the reactions of the other characters? It's just too complicated and specific of an issue to rely on general guidelines.

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

B'ys, the real answer is to stop writing webcomics altogether! I'm telling ye! no webcomic, no problem!

I mean, sure, we'll be bereft of artistic output and dreams will be crushed...but hey, less stuff to do. Silver lining.

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

what you mean most of us has made somewhat a living doing comics lol(edited)

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

Lol, I want to make comics so uhhhhh???

Joichi [Hybrid Dolls]

Aw...That sounds sad but depends how the body is presented? I mean I've seen mystery games with afew dead characters? Not a child yet.(edited)

Sometimes I've seen Anime do a light censorship by showing a bloodied child's shoe or gloves, or an arm but it can be disturbing(edited)

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

It's just that... dead children is a sensitive topic

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

Yeah, a limp arm is what I often see

DanitheCarutor

I think it's because showing dead children is considered taboo? Like some games where you can kill other characters won't give you the ability to kill children, as well as movies that show character deaths won't show a child's death. It might be too insensitive for some people because children are innocent, and many people have had/are having kids, so showing them might be extra upsetting? At least that's what I assume is the reason behind someone saying not to show the child's death.

Ah, didn't notice Cronaj already said it in much fewer words.

snuffysam (Super Galaxy Knights)

Ah yes, that reminds me that there are places where I put up different warnings than what the comic has - my side stories. Since my side stories are often ways for me to explore different styles of storytelling than the comic proper, they can often have different themes. Off the top of my head - one side story I wrote had a warning for cussing, one had a warning for descriptions of violence against a child, and one had a warning for getting in a bit deep into a character's PTSD. (oddly enough, both of those latter warnings were in reference to the same character, just with a time gap of a few years. though the PTSD in the one story involved a completely different event than the violence depicted in the other story. pejiba's had it rough)

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

@Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!) , @Cronaj (Whispers of the Past) , I was making a joke. :p

sssfrs (JOE IS DEAD)

I think the worst thing I'm going to show visually is a dead body and the whole story is about there being a dead body so I don't feel the need for any additional internal content warnings. I think my rule of thumb is just not to show anything that would be more shocking or upsetting than the premise of the comic would have you expect, and to have all warnings at the outset.

I agree with snuffysam's approach to separating darker and scarier content into side stories with their own content warnings or at least I would take a similar approach myself. It's okay to make stories that depict difficult topics but I think it's better not to disrupt the flow of a more lighthearted story if it can be avoided. Exploring difficult topics outside of the main story is a good solution to that

sagaholmgaard

I put a content warning the first time there was some violence and blood in my comic, since the previous pages had been mostly cute so I figured it was warranted. I'm coming up to the second time something potentially triggering happens- a guy gets killed 'on screen', but I don't think it's rendered in a worse way than the first time so I'm considering whether it's good to warn every time a scene like this comes up or if the first warning is enough to readers to have opted out if they dont want that sort of content

chalcara [Nyx+Nyssa]

I had a read-up on age ratings and found out Nyx+Nyssa would fall under PEGI-16 due to realistic violence towards human characters, and will simply stick a 16+ sign into the corner of my page, which links to a conscience explanation why.

Desnik

So recently I've joined a writer's group and they ask people to stick warnings upfront so that readers can opt out of reading something that will upset them. I've found that it's helpful to warn for things that cause certain phobias, religious criticism, and minority experiences depicted w/o a sensitivity reader's guidance. I would also warn for drugs/alcohol usage since reading about that kind of experience can be a trigger for addictions.

I don't tend to write about anything super visceral but when reading I know I appreciate warnings about certain types of gore or violence

I think it's beneficial to be extremely specific with tags because for some reason YA-rated stuff can be very violent (so that makes age-based ratings completely nonsensical). Also not every story is going to treat serious issues with the same gravity so I think it's helpful to mention if some aspect is being treated in a melodramatic/unrealistic manner on purpose.(edited)

Joichi [Hybrid Dolls]

Like a standard comic might take say... 10 pages or more. Webtoon tends to shorten this roughly by half. Or by the 3rd or 4th episode, that major plot point happens.(edited)

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

I feel "have a natural flow" is easier said than done, and also can mean very different things for different stories, and even different readers responding to one story.

(Maybe we should move this to shop talk as it's not relevant to this week's topic?)

Joichi [Hybrid Dolls]

oh this is in shop talk? ok, I thought creator babble was relevant to this.

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

Nah, creator babble, if I understand it correctly, is specifically for weekly questions. This week's question is about content warnings

AntiBunny

My story is heavily inspired by film noir, so I think the occasional burst of violence should be expected.

#ctparchive #comics #webcomics #indie comics #comic chat #comic discussion #creator interview #comic creator interview #creator babble #comic tea party #ctp

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