#because shes just as important than they are and the effects that chaos agent's choices have on her are just as important

[itsmerachael5]

thinking about toxin. more so with her whole "family timeline"

i mean.. if i really think about it.. when chaos agent (then issac) and toxin had met -- not going by the dumb retcon after chapter 2 s3, they were lab partners. working in a lab with many people, eventually they fell in love and had chic; rather quick, but in terms of Issac's character this makes sense to me. when he finds someone he likes he's very quick to show this and favor them.

but anyways.. after the whole event that created chaos agent and made him the 'person' he is. she chose to follow him, and stayed just the same. he's changed, unsure if he's even the same person telling her he is for the sake of an easier time. but she's the same and accepts this change whole heartedly, pushing Chic to as well. Even after he admits that he may not be the same man she knew, she's okay with this to his surprise.

so they together build up enough numbers to create a sizable company (?) creating alter. She would help him with any sort of medicine/science related tasked he'd ask for. She was just as smart as when they first got together and the chaos agent wanted to utilize this, however their relationship began to slowly take a toll.. Issac i could imagine is very affectionate, but soon they would argue over things, and their relationship would start as marital to something more professional and strained -- but they still had a daughter together, and treated this as a family situation. you wouldn't even be able to guess they were married, as Chaos Agent doesn't refer to Toxin as many pet names.

skip ahead to when Chic dies, Chaos Agent lost in what to do, he knows he doesn't want to be a good guy. and neither does she, but she's the one to call them parents, bringing it up saying they'll grieve together. This doesn't happen, not on screen at least. if anything they become more distant than before. her working in steamy stacks, and he's all the way in Pleasant Park, trying to rebuild what he once had. even admitting to Skye, when she worked with him, that he felt no need to see or catch up with Toxin during this. They would have a zoom call a week. and even then that to me seems more business than relationship.

before i continue the rest of this. my assumption is that because of Issac becoming one with The Chaos Agent, it would only keep emotions that were necessary. Romantic feelings for Toxin seemed to dissipate but his fatherly love and desperation for acceptance from his daughter remained. he wanted to be there for her and be a father and be in her life, but he didn't know how to do this as she hated him.

Maybe he felt the need of acceptance from her because Toxin was already okay with the change. maybe he wanted to do this for evil manipulation reasons but im strong in the belief that he just wanted her to know that he still cared for her. She was still his little girl, and he could never harbor hate for her. Even though, he treated her with sarcasm and harshness when they she was first introduced, i think this was just ryan trying to figure out the dynamic. or possibly chaos agent reacted this way to her because of how she treated him with such hostility already, he didnt know how to be kinder til the party, when he truly understood why she treated him this way.

But back to Toxin, after the death of Chic, i'm sure she greived. she had snuck out to go to her funeral, and to comfort chaos agent. I wished that we were able to see more of this though, how her death affected not just Chaos Agent but Toxin. As she didnt even get to see or hear her own daughter before her demise. i want to know what it was like for her. was it just as hard as it was for Chaos Agent? did she lose sleep to waking nightmares, unable to prevent what was already done? or did she bury herself in whatever work he would give her trying to distract from the truth? They clearly didn't talk much during this, and i think thats maybe the saddest part to me, that during all of this hardship and grieving, all they would share is a weekly zoom call. i couldn't imagine how that would feel.

This puts a larger strain on the relationship i think.. and they surely don't think of each other as fondly as they once did. I wonder if seeing him reminded her of Chic, and vice versa. Did they ever argue about it? did they bring it up after that moment at the funeral?

sadly so many unanswered questions. because Chic didn't get alot of screen time.

but after Rue, when chaos agent found out that she was a clone of Chic, he was shocked. but i wish i got to see more of it, when he was happy to finally be reunited with his daughter, a second chance to do things better and he sort of had closure for her death as she has been reborn, she even has Chic's memories. so they aren't entirely the same, but she remembers Issac, she remembered growing up with her mother and father working late in the lab, she remembered the things that Chic does. but we're never sure how much of that memory is retained, its all just speculation. But for sure the only people who have that memory is Chaos Agent, Toxin, And Cameo, who she thankfully reunites with. and cameo is just glad to have her friend back

but now, after this, chaos agent changes again. after the defeat of Fusion and sacrificing his body, the chaos agent remains , keeping Isaac's memories eventually it and Isaac have become one. So, to survive it needs a new body, and through its greed and evil decides to take Rue as she was the closest. Now chaos Rue, the people Toxin is supposed to be closest to have changed again, and she remains the same. Her husband and daughter now entangled in a disgusting fusion, and this is all unknown to her. assuming chaos agent had died. And she had come to accept this, but Chaos Rue would tell her eventually and Toxin would still continue to work with it. Barely holding on to any similarities between her old life and this new one.

Maybe she was okay with this, not realizing til then how much things had changed, maybe she wanted to separate herself from the person she was before Chaos Agent arrived. But nonetheless she was still deep down the same person, when the only family she had left were only imitations of those before them.

More time would pass. Chaos Agent would eventually make a deal with Isaac to separate from Rue, and let her be at peace. The guilt from this is probably what drove Isaac to ask such a thing. he didn't want to harm Rue anymore than he had when she was Chic, and because the Chaos Agent still had Isaac within him it folded and allowed for this to happen. all it wanted was for Isaac to push for total control of the island again, something he would be able to manage now with Midas gone.

And now Toxin and Chaos Agent are still separated. She would barely if ever visit and Chaos Agent is now more enamored with Tek.. i mean, maybe not intentionally but he certainty was trying Something.

Later now touched by Jules' "gift" from Midas, and becoming empowered by the golden touch. he becomes more sinister, but this time Toxin isn't sure what to do, she wants to follow him as it's everything she's know as of the past at least decade. but he's become so corrupt.

but she does so, and stays with him. But after this we don't hear much from her.. and her death is tragic. Midas, possessed by his most evil self kills her crushing her in the rubble of steamy stacks. Chaos Agent says his goodbyes and she's done.

i havent seen the episode which this happens in a while so im sure theres more to it than that, but still. After Toxin dies, so does Chaos Agent, being defeated by the current cast of heroes.

and what's left is just Rue. The clone of Chic, an imitation of someone she'd never met. Accepted by a family who cared for her because she was that imitation. and Toxin was also the last piece of Chic left. the only person who was still organically themselves through the whole timeline of events.

[jq37]

The Report Card – Fantasy High: The Seven Ep 3

Let’s Split Up and Look for Clues! 

Welcome back to the Seven and the Museum of Adventuring. My previous pronouncement of combat was a little premature but hold tight, we’ll get there. For now, we’re back with Antiope who just saw a glimpse of the Ending of Things (aka, Ending) and is freaking out a bit. She tells the others and they all do various checks to see what they can find out.

Ostentatia casts Commune With City and clocks that there is some kind of abjuration shield magic on the government buildings in town, stopping them from being spied on. She also clocks some lingering undead-ish magic and a weird divination effect on Antiope, specifically on the Aguefort logo of her jacket, like someone scryed on her and just got that she had something to do with Aguefort. At this, Penny reminds her that the only true piece of info they gave Ending when they broke her out is that they were from Aguefort.

Sam with a 19 Insight still feels the connection she and Ant have with Ending because of their spells turned against them in the initial encounter. Yelle does a Perception check (27) and once again doesn’t really get bad, dreadful, menacing vibes. But also, she recognizes that she’s chill with a lot of things most people don’t love. 

Antiope reiterates that she texted Charity that she’s interested in the internship so she can learn more info--even better now that they know the buildings are safe from scrying. Yelle remembers Aguefort’s warning about people watching them and Sam asks Zelda if her “weird boyfriend” (“he’s actually really cool”) is friends with the elven oracle. Zelda says yeah, they’re both friends with Adaine, she can ask about any weird divination stuff. Sam makes sure to specify she should look into TK but NOT Ending, no doubt remembering what happened when she tried to do a spell on her. 

It’s been a big day as Zelda says so they all go to the TGIF-esque Slappy McFinnigans to celebrate (which Sam has problems with--the fact that they’re celebrating I mean, but she’s mainly ignored). They’re quickly kicked out because Katja can’t help herself from trying to brush the mane of their centaur server and they reconvene at the more their speed SlamBurger, where a horse can fully destroy a soda machine to absolutely zero reaction.  Zelda says that Ostentatia was right in that they should all do the quest because it doesn’t close any doors and they have the 2 weeks to figure things out. They all seem a bit more on the same page (though Sam is still pretty frosty towards Ant) and start making plans.

Before they leave, Yelle pulls aside Ant and Sam and says hey, first of all, you two are still linked to Ending from before. Second of all, I know y’all are Going Through It right now and you don’t have to talk about it or make up right away but you need to get your heads in the game and you need to know that you’re both loved and still family. 

Penny, Zelda, Katja, and Ostentatia go back to the museum to try and get more information for their quest. Katja goes to the information desk (horse in tow, of course) and just starts asking information about TK. She’s told that she’s one of the museum’s benefactors and has been missing for years, and hey, do you understand that a museum’s info desk is about where the water fountains and exhibits are, not just random information about the world?

Ostentatia bails her out by calling her over so she can do her plan which is just to walk into the back area like she owns the place. Now, Aguefort students do have a certain level of clearance to be back there and she does have her school ID. But instead of explaining that, she tried to use her Earrings of Diamond Charm to charm the employee she runs into which fails. And then she does a pretty good tag-team lie with Katja about how they NEED to pass a class but that doesn’t fly. Then Ostentatia tries flirting which ALSO doesn’t work. Zelda at this point steps in and just headbuts the dude so they can book it away. I personally would have gone with, “Do you know who we are? We killed the dragon that’s your current main exhibit,” but you know. No backseat adventuring. 

While this is happening, Penny is stealthing like a pro, looking for anything Arcana related. Ostentatia and Katja also did checks (O getting a nat 20) and we’ll go through all their info gathered now. 

Katja basically gets info on TK we kind of already knew. She was a benefactor of the museum. She’s centuries old like Aguefort. She was concerned with consciousness and divinity and specifically how will and divine will manifested, as well as elemental magic.  

Ostentatia gets a lot of info with her Nat 20. She gets a full map to the temple where TK went which is called the Temple of Earth Defiant. The point of the temple is that it’s up in the open air and harsh winds--wind being a symbol of chaos and unpredictability to dwarves--but they still use it as a place to honor their heroes and they rebuild and upkeep it despite the erosion and how hard it is to get there. It’s hallowed from evil and lots of stories about it involve heroes racing there for sanctuary. It was made by dwarves but it’s a pilgrimage site for other primordial beings like goliaths and earth genasi (which is what TK is). There are 3 heroes who have big statues here: Asha Hammerheart (a SUPER dope name I must say), Yvonna of the Sundering Hills , and Kora Ironbrow.

Penny finds that, amongst Kalvaxus’s hoard there were 7 unrecovered artifacts--the Mirrors of the Eidolons (which are the smashed mirrors they found it seems). Eidelons are kind of like the elemental plane version of angels/celestials. They’re primordial (remember Katja saw primordial language on the wall of the dragon cave) and kind of aligned with things like titans and genies. Raw element with no agenda (unlike celestials and demons and such which have a clear alignment which makes up the D&D religious system). It is said by wizards--who look at these things in more of a nuts and bolts way than say clerics who take the fuzzier religions view--that Eidolons are the hands of the gods because gods are beings of spirit--how could they form the physical world. Will of the divine manifested by elemental beings? Sounds right up TK’s alley.

Sam decides she’s desperate enough for information that she calls her mom who she is understandably snippy with. Her mom gives her a contact to talk to when she asks about TK but Sam stonewalls her on show business talk. She tries to play the “mother knows best, you’ll thank me later,” in a kind of Gothel-y way while acting like anything in the past never happened and says Sam is attacking her but when Sam accuses her of neglect, she proves her right by hanging up the phone.

Sam then calls the number and it turns out to be Lola Embers (Fig’s agent) who has been waiting for Sam’s call for ages and wants to talk to her, even though she’s currently chasing her dog across the park. She says she met TK once at a genasi woman networking thing and also says she once saw Charity get into an argument with TK over government funding or not getting a grant or something similar. She then says she’s in a lake trying to get her dog and Sam, being a water genasi who can breathe underwater and also a fundamentally good person even though she’s currently being aggro as hell, goes to the park to help her. Lola assures her that if she’s ready, she’ll help her get new acting gigs and that the world is ready for the new her. 

Yelle meanwhile casts Speak With Plants on some trees near TK’s office and, after a super stoner to stoner conversation, gets a magical footprint trail of where she ran off to when she absconded 12 years ago. 

Antiope (who is in a sports bra because she destroyed her top with the Aguefort logo since that’s what was pinged, revealing in a wild, nat-1 fueled retcon that she got a tramp stamp reading “Leader” in the Red Waste) goes to see Charity to fill out some paperwork, ingratiate herself, and perhaps get some info. Charity has her hot, young, assistant (who Antiope is instantly crushing on) give Ant his shirt (and Charity’s lack of surprise at seeing his 4 horses pulling a chariot tattoo makes the group think they’re def banging). She kind of explains what the Ministry does and Antiope boils it down a bit to snitching on other adventurers. Charity says it’s more of a who watches the watchmen situation and visibly twitches when she has to say the word “snitch”. 

When she takes a second to call Antiope’s dad, she accidentally leaves a tab open on her computer which has TK’s file open (probably up from when the Maidens asked about her earlier). Antiope sneaks a peek and learns that the artifact that TK stole is called the Legendarium Extrodia and it tracks quests. It seems that at some point TK must have had top level access to get her hands on it. It also shows that TK was marked for assassination (which seems like a pretty good reason to get the heck out of dodge). Brennan also says she’s learned enough that she can use the L.E. if she finds it. 

At this point, Yelle tells everyone to come back ASAP so they can follow the magic footsteps. Antiope wants to come but doesn’t want to burn bridges with Charity (or chances with Preston--equally important) so she, at Katja’s suggestion--pretends to have diarrhea and is Nat 20 convincing. Interesting choice for the end of the first meeting with a person you’re crushing on. But Preston is actually pretty supportive as she races out the door as fast as possible.

The Seven follow the footsteps out of Solace and it becomes clear that TK was headed to the dwarven temple Ostentatia learned about. This is a multi-day journey so Cinnamon sings a glorious, magical, horse song and summons mounts for everyone which I will now name because this is obviously the most important part of the episode:

Snowfire - Danielle

Taffodill - Sam

Alagonia - Antiope

Candyheart - Penny

Starforge - Ostentatia 

Strawberry Dancer - Zelda 

Crucial info. 

As they travel, Antiope casts Primeval Awareness and gets that there is something ancient in the mountain. They travel through Pilgrim’s Pass (a village area most travelers to the temple pass through) but find it completely razed to the ground. They investigate. 

With an 18 Survival check, Antiope finds tracks that seem halfway between dog and cat. There are more than 4 legs and it’s hard to tell how old they are because there’s not a lot of rain in the area. They could have been left long ago and been undisturbed. Regardless, these are clearly from monstrosities. On a 26 History Check, Katja knows that this area used to be protected by Blink Dogs (teleporting dogs) but they seem to be all gone now. On a 22 Nature check, Yelle sees a weird feather made out of plant material. It seems like fae stuff but bad vibes. On an 18 Insight check, Sam knows this was a purposeful slaughter.

And on Penny’s 30 Arcana check, oh boy. Penny finds broken common scrawled on the wall in human blood talking about a queen of the mountain who rules the skies. That only the queen may see and none may see themselves. And that the people were told to destroy the seeing glass and did not obey. In from of that message is a bear hide covering something magic. Penny lifts it with reckless abandon and sees tons of mirror shards.

Friendship bracelets! She thinks.

Gotcha bitch, the thing in the mirror says.

Uh-oh.   

Penny calls over her friends to let them knows she may have made a tiny mistake. The group is pretty split between, “Understandable,” and “Girl, WHAT?” In her defense, she did try to cast Friends on the person on the other side of the mirror shards but that’s not enough to stop an entire pack of 50-60 Displacer Beast (magic tentacle cats)/Blink Dog hybrid monstrosities along with the Harpy Queen (voice from the mirror) and her plant feathered harpy minions to start rapidly making their way to their location. 

It is at this point that Ostentatia remembers that abominations and monstrosities cannot step into the temple which means it’s time to RUN. 

And NOW it’s combat time. 

The premise of this fight is that the girls are on their horses, moving towards the center of the temple as fast as they can while fending off the closest enemies. I won’t give an exact play by play but the two highlights are as follows:

Yelle conjures up a bunch of geese with raptor stats (...so normal geese) to swarm the head cat/dog abomination and has to do a truly stunning amount of math for which she is rewarded with SEVENTY POINTS OF DAMAGE. 

Antiope does some insane arrow trickery and gets the Queen Harpy in the wing (which Ostentatia helpfully gets on video so she can show Preston later) and then forces her to take damage as she falls. If not for an extremely lucky Box of Doom nat 20, she may have been down for the count. Antiope still comes away with more than FIFTY points of damage on her though. 

And we end the episode mid-combat! We will catch up on our girls next time!

Superlatives 

Penny: Most Likely to Make Friends During a Hostage Situation 

As a companion to Danielle’s superlative last episode, Penny gets this award for reading or misreading every situation as an opportunity to make friends or make friendship bracelets for the ones she already has. 

Random Thoughts

Did you guys notice that with Katja having Cinnamon and Charity’s assistant being Preston, that’s two of the main pet NPCs from A Crown of Candy?

Antiope’s Reaction to Yelle Saying That Maybe Things Ending Isn’t So Bad: Rail against the dying of the light! Why are you OK with this?

Penny’s Reaction to Yelle Saying That Maybe Things Ending Isn’t So Bad: Entropy is TERRIBLE! Everything needs order!

The greasy cashier’s response to Ostentatia’s flirty, “Come here often?” is “To my job? Honestly no.” Brennan? Chef’s kiss. 

My other fave line this episode is from Sam. “I believe Cinnamon fucks.”

It’s very cute that Penny is like, “I gotta text Riz about this Eidelon stuff!” Not because she wants help. Just so they can geek out together. 

The joke that Brennan didn’t think about the birds is so funny considering all the bird facts in Misfits.

Also re Birds attacking: “They made a movie about this Brennan!” 

Good on Ant for refusing an Aguefort sweatshirt from Charity when offered after the little scrying incident before. Remembering things like this saves lives. 

It has been brought up several times that Ending isn’t necessarily Bad just Ancient and Powerful and I trust Yelle’s vibe check but also, like, a forest fire doesn’t have malice behind it but it can still devastate a city while it clears out dead trees that need to be cleared, you know? Not ready to start wild speculation yet but I am curious. And am similarly curious about the sisters Ending has mentioned. Oh and the parallels of 7 Maidens, 7 mirrors. It’s all there, we just need a little more info. 

Honestly, get you a man who will see you rushing out of a building, loudly claiming to have diarrhea, and instead of being grosses out will just supportively confess his own stomach issues. I wish he was just a little younger cause I want that for Ant. 

I do like that D20 has been playing a little more fast and loose with the RP ep/combat ep format. I think it really helps with story flow. 

In this episode Antiope and Brennan as various non-Zelda NPCs rolled 2 Nat 20s. O rolled one. Ant rolled 1 Nat 1--which was on a self imposed roll to see how she responded to Sephie’s tramp stamp improv. And O may have rolled one for initiative also but I wasn’t sure. 

[thejonzone]

Riverdale is the Best Show You’ve Written Off

About once a month, a tweet will go around, reading something like “I can’t believe Netflix cancelled [SHOW X], but Riverdale is still on?!? *eye roll emoji, angry cussing emoji*.” It can be difficult to read tweets like these, because I like Riverdale. But I understand why it has struggled to keep an audience-- there is a perception that the show has gone completely off the rails, a chaos of hot actors in their mid-20s playing glamorous high school sociopaths, with the show choosing excess over narrative cohesion. That perception is pretty accurate. It’s an easy show to write off and easy to make fun of, especially because, as a CW show, it’s ostensibly geared to teens. So it brings me no pleasure to say that Riverdale, currently in its 5th season, has reached a renaissance, and its episodes so far this season represent its high-water mark. 

To appreciate how stunning and exciting Riverdale’s new direction is, it’s important to understand how we got here.

In the first season, a murder in the titular town revealed an underbelly of thugs, power brokers, and shady backroom rulers, all vying for control with gothic morbidity. What followed after that season though, was something else entirely. 

Riverdale, ramping up during Seasons 2 through 4, became a beautiful mess. I think it’s important to state that no other show on television is even attempting to do what Riverdale did/is doing. The show is, at any one point, 5-7 wholly different shows. There is a season’s worth of plot per episode. It’s storytelling mania and in-real-time dementia. I don’t remember what happened at the end of last episode because SO much happened. And besides, coherence is overrated! Give me hot actors, give me drug-addicted mobsters, give me creepy principals! On Riverdale, the parents are both former teen heartthrobs and serial killers, children operate underground speakeasies, and for some reason not one therapist has realized they could make a fortune helping our cast work through the intense psychological terror and emotional abuse they receive every episode.

This show is beyond pastiche, hyper-loaded with reference. My roommate and I had a joke that the show’s third season could be mapped to a quadrant of influences: Twin Peaks, True Detective, The Sopranos, and Gossip Girl. At any point Riverdale was acknowledging and playing into the influence of one of these shows. Season Four doubled down on the show’s horror anthology tendency. No one wants you to miss the references being made. You know that menacing boarding school Jughead attends in Season Four? You’d be right If it reminded you of Donna Tartt’s A Secret History. After all, consider Jughead’s classmate, whose name is Donna Sweet. Maybe you picked up on the violence simmering underneath the surface of Jughead’s other classmate, Bret Easton-Elli--  I mean, Bret Weston-Wallis.

Every week, the show seems primed for failure, attempting to juggle more storylines than possible or even necessary. The show is like a house of cards that has already fallen, and yet the writers are somehow still haphazardly adding more cards to the top. “Be reasonable!” I would plead. To no avail. And that’s the thrill of it. The plotlines are secondary to the spectacle. The show is a celebration and parody of violent legacy dramas, camp, teen horror, canonical literature, and anything else it can stuff under the hood, as much an ode to other pieces of media as it is an original work itself. 

But now, something completely different is happening. The beginning of Season Five brought an end to the seasons-long saga the show felt trapped in. Archie, Veronica, Betty, and Jughead graduated high school, and the show flashed forward seven years. What might be considered a hokey technique was one of the best decisions the writers ever did. Because now we have a blank slate for our main cast. The writers effectively cut the fat from three seasons of violent, ridiculous maximalism. And it’s psychically refreshing.

At the heart of any good sitcom, we just want to see our main characters hanging out together. Change is part of life, but it shouldn’t be in television. Which is why this new season is so exciting-- Riverdale is now in the process of bringing its four main characters back from their adult lives and re-engaging them in the deadly politics of their hometown. Pop Tate, the owner-manager of Pop’s, Riverdale’s diner, is retiring, and Archie gets the gang back in town to celebrate the man who helped make the diner such a great hang-out spot. In the words of Jughead, “You gave us a home, Pop.” Like so mant other sitcoms before it, Riverdale used Pop’s to establish its characters and their relationships to each other.

I grew up on Seinfeld so I’ve always been attracted to the idea of the diner. The pandemic has made me yearn even harder for the sitcom diner, that idealistic place where all my friends are, where people enter with problems to be solved, drama to be explained, good news to be celebrated. Riverdale’s acknowledgment of Pop and his diner as the show’s connective tissue is a grounding and human choice. It works fantastically to set up this upcoming season, where our gang must confront the newest nefarious plot for control over the soul of Riverdale.

No doubt the show will continue its pattern of naming and spoofing genre. Veronica, in her adult life, had an Uncut Gems-style few scenes where she works as a charismatic (of course) diamond merchant. She married a possessive, boring guy who’s only characteristic seems to be that his voice is *exactly* like Veronica’s megalomaniac dad, Hiram. Something something Freud, something something daddy sexy. And credit where credit is due, Mark Consuelos is really hot.

Jughead is a writer now, in the most white guy college freshman fantasy of being a writer possible. He attended the Iowa Writers Workshop as an undergrad, something that is definitely not possible. He’s written a hit book but now suffers from *gasp* writer’s block?? He’s a cool guy writer who, in his opening montage, gets recognized by, hit on, and then has sex with a college-aged fan. Back in Riverdale, Jug writes a speech for Pop’s retirement and sends it to his agent. His agent is smitten with the work, calling it “tragic americana” and proclaiming that Jughead’s next book will be titled “Elegy for a Small Town”. This is almost certainly a reference to J.D. Vance’s bad book, and I’m sure the show will be bringing in more elements of “tragic” “americana” as the season unfolds. 

Betty is FBI in training, because as the show has loved to tell us, Betty has “the serial killer gene”, but is using it for good. For the record, her dad was a serial killer, and her brother was a serial killer. And it’s not like her mom or sister can cast the first stone. Betty’s endured enough trauma to fill 100 lives with unending pain and I’m sure the show will have no trouble heaping more on top. Already in the new season we’ve seen flashbacks to some point during the time jump when Betty was taken hostage, in what’s clearly a homage to The Silence of the Lambs. 

And then there’s Archie. I don’t know if anyone knows what to do with the guy. Played by K.J. Apa, who is both really good-looking with his shirt off and a god-awful actor, Archie has been in the army. The show is using him to shill for the military-industrial complex. 

I’ve long joked that the Riverdale writers have no idea what they’re doing. But through a global pandemic affecting TV production and *the* major narrative complication in any high school-set show (graduation), the Riverdale writers have seamlessly transitioned the show to a new stasis. Past seasons are informing this one, but we aren’t bogged down by the details in this new season. The bigger joke, of course, is that the writers have known exactly what they’ve been doing this whole time, and I’m just an idiot. Well I mean, of course I’m an idiot. I use television to regulate my emotions and simulate a static friend group that doesn’t leave or change. And Riverdale is perfect for that. If a renaissance is a rebirth, well then my friends, cut the umbilical cord and save the placenta to put in pills, because Riverdale is cranking out episodes that are better than ever.

[timeagainreviews]

Vengence on Gallifrey

Welcome back, friends. We’re meeting up sooner than we usually do! I could get used to the idea of a new episode every Wednesday and Sunday. Wouldn’t that be swanky? In the time since part one of "Spyfall," there has been a lot of speculation and theories about what would be in store for part two. How many of your fan predictions came true? I know a couple of mine did. But let’s not get ahead of ourselves.

Before part two aired, I revisited part one. I was curious to review O’s storyline in light of the big reveal. Would I notice any nods or giveaways to his being the Master a second time around? The answer is basically, no. Other than the Master’s reaction of "ridiculous," to the inside of the TARDIS, there’s not much telegraphing to be had. I did, however, notice some things that seem head-slappingly stupid upon a second viewing.

My pal Steve compared the episode to "Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker," in that it moves so fast that you don’t have enough time to realise how stupid it actually is. One of those things I noticed the second time around was the big glass box in the middle of O’s home. My mind had kind of glazed over by that point that I never questioned how stupid it was that he would have a spring-loaded glass box in his ceiling. Now, I’m only human, but the Doctor isn’t. Why didn’t that seem weird to her that he would have a trap hanging from the ceiling? It made me think of Troll 2 when the dad walks over and grabs a fire extinguisher conveniently propped against the house. Why was it there? Because the plot demanded it.

Despite this, there is one thing I feel deserves saying. As much as I liked "Kerblam!" "The Witchfinders," or "It Takes You Away," I haven’t watched any of them since they first aired. I haven’t watched any of season 11 since my initial viewing. Regardless of any plotholes I found, I wanted to rewatch Spyfall. And I think that goes to show that despite various failings on Chris Chibnall’s behalf, he’s got me watching the show again! What then is different?

My first response would be that the stakes are higher this time around. A lot of that has to do with the fact that the Master is back. Regardless of how overused he may or may not be in the new series, their relationship has gravity. As an agent of chaos, the Master ups the tension as we have a history with him. Like with the Dalek in "Resolution," he lends a familiar element that this new era deeply needed. In these past few days, I was truly worried about how our friends were going to get out of this mess. I haven’t felt that way about Doctor Who in a long time.

When we last saw our heroes, the Doctor had been transported to the brain realm and the companions were about to crash on a plane. Through a bit of time travel, the Doctor saves the day via phone app, thus continuing the trend of the Doctor messing with Ryan’s phone. At least the dude got to keep his data this time. I found the whole sequence with the Doctor making plaques and laminating belaboured the point a bit, but it was cute.

We learn that the Doctor is walking around in some sort of synaptic realm. She meets Ada Lovelace who seems to think it's her own mind, but that was her best guess. I would complain that it was a weird design if it was a mind, but then I remember "The Invisible Enemy," and realise how much worse it could have looked! According to Ada, she’s been visiting this place since she was a wee bairn. She seems rather cool about the whole thing but is perplexed to see the Doctor.

The two flash into Ada’s timeline of 1834, where the Doctor has found herself at a steampunk convention. I found some of the steam-powered devices like the grenade to be a bit moronic. It was so unbelievable that my initial reaction was that she was in some sort of alternate history. But no, it’s just goofy. The Master discovers the Doctor survived and goes to finish the job. Before the episode, I was thinking "I hope they show the inside of his TARDIS." Turns out they already had. I guess it’s the same size on the inside. I had kind of expected it to be like Clara and Me’s TARDIS in that the diner was just part of the facade with the real bit hidden away. But no, his console is right there in the main room. Weird. Also, remember when chameleon circuits used to make TARDISes look inconspicuous? The biggest thing we ever saw it do was when the Master’s TARDIS became a truck. The coolest camouflage still goes to my man Professor Chronotis’ TARDIS in Shada. It was just a door along a wall. How cool is that? Not complaining, merely lamenting the loss of simplicity.

From within the Master’s TARDIS we see Barton confront the Master. The conversation between these two really only serves to show Barton as alive, and establish the power structure which is that the Master is in charge, which we already knew. It also establishes the existence of a sculpture that looks like something a third-year art student might have half-assed while hungover. Barton goes to intercept the companions, while the Master takes care of the Doctor. He makes a grand entrance with his tissue compression device doling out murder without reason. Did anyone else wonder why the device seemed not only to shrink people but also to turn them stiff like plastic or wood? I suppose compacting material like that could increase rigidity, but it was an odd choice.

To get the Master to stop killing people, the Doctor placates his ego by getting on her knees and calling him Master. It was, for lack of a better word- hot. Ada shoots the Master with a steam-powered gun and they get away. This was more of Chibnall’s weird relationship with guns. The Doctor says to Ada that she doesn’t approve, but the second Ada uses a grenade the Doctor is like "Hell yeah, this is my bad bitch Ada! Represent!" It’s like in "The Ghost Monument," when she hated the use of guns against a group of emotionless robots and then used a bomb to take out the same group of emotionless robots. It’s almost as though it’s not the killing the Doctor hates, it’s the inefficiency of the whole thing. "Mate, use bombs, way more effective!" Okay, Chris.

In the last five minutes of part one, I wasn’t sure if Sacha Dhawan was going to be a good Master or not. I was worried he was going to be too flamboyant, but the second he hits the screen in part two, it’s as though he had always been in the role. I really love him and Jodie Whittaker’s chemistry. It’s great to see her Doctor faced with someone truly evil, and I feel as though it’s given her a lot to work with. Watching the two of them verbally spar is nothing short of delightful.

Barton comes up empty-handed in his search for the companions, which is no sweat off his back as he is Mr Tech Empire. After a little bit of finagling with the internet, their faces are soon posted everywhere as wanted criminals. Exactly like in "The Sound of Drums," they’re going to have to go off the grid. They even take refuge in a construction site! Doing so gives them a bit of downtime to talk and regroup. In a moment of clarity, it dons on them that they don’t really know the Doctor all that well. They decide that after all is said and done, they’re going to have a talk with the Doctor. Like many people, I was hoping that they would visit this concept, as series eleven made them seem a little too keen. It was a welcome bit of character development.

Another thing I love about this scene is that Graham isn’t annoying in it. "But Natalie," you say, "I thought you loved Graham!" And you would be right, I do love Graham. But I feel like it’s worth pointing out that they didn’t ruin him. Usually with a lot of shows and movies, if something is good or popular with fans, the tendency is to overdo it. This is the same lovable dude from the previous series and I feel that should be acknowledged. One of the things I really admire about Chris Chibnall is that he really seems to know his own character’s voices. One of my biggest issues with Clara Oswald is that her personality was all over the board. We don’t get that here.

Having travelled with the Doctor for a while now, the companions decide to carry on like she would have them do. They still have their spy gear and like exploding cufflinks and Graham’s laser shoes, and their timing couldn’t have been more perfect as the baddies from part one show up. Sadly, they’re not the Voord as me and many others had hoped. They’re a species known as the Kasaavin. It’s a name that’s about as inspired as Ranskoor Av Kolos, and that is not a compliment. It’s simply a very forgettable name. I dunno what it is, but I really hate the way Chris Chibnall names stuff. He’s willing to do groan-inducing puns like "Arachnids in the UK," or "Dinosaurs on a Spaceship," but then decides to reign it in with "Resolution," despite the naming convention established in previous Dalek stories like "Revelation of the Daleks," or "Remembrance of the Daleks." Though I suppose in his defence, "Resolution," is about a singular Dalek. Either way, Graham’s laser shoes save the day. It’s ridiculous, but unlike the Master, it is a compliment when I say it.

The Doctor has now regrouped with Ada Lovelace and Charles Babbage. After a bit of fangirling on her part, she goes into Doctor brain mode. She pieces together that the multiple maps of the earth are, like I had guessed, different points in time. The aliens are spying on important people throughout time, for some reason that still makes zero sense to me. Why would they care about the Earth’s technology? Wouldn’t their computers completely best our technology? What threat could humans pose to them? I thought their sights were set on taking over the universe, but now it appears their sites are set on one planet’s technology. I guess you’ve got to start somewhere.

The Doctor surmises that the Kasaavin must have difficulty keeping their form in our universe, thus a need for a machine that keeps them stable. This, of course, is the bad art student sculpture we saw in the Master’s TARDIS which has now found its way into Charles Babbage’s study. This must have been too close to the truth as at this moment a Kasaavin shows up. The Doctor uses this as an opportunity to hitch a ride off of the Kasaavin’s energy surge in hopes to end up back in the present day. As she does, Ada grabs her hand and is transported as well. Instead of 2020, they end up in the year 1943 during a Nazi blitz on Paris. Literally, the first person they encounter is another historical figure- Noor Inayat Khan. That’s gotta be some kind of record for the show- three historical figures in one episode.

After establishing that they aren’t Nazis, the Doctor and Ada hide in the safety of Noor’s home. However, it is then that the Master shows up in full Nazi regalia and orders a team of Nazi soldiers to fire into the floor and leaves. I, like many of you, was immediately confused. The Nazis weren’t known to ally themselves with people of the Master’s current complexion. However, we learn that by using a series of perception filters, the Master has disguised himself as white, which makes sense in relation to the show. We discover the Doctor and Ada narrowly averted death as they were, in fact, hiding in the floor.

On the other end of things, Graham, Ryan, and Yaz use being under surveillance to draw Barton’s people into a trap. Using Graham’s laser shoes, they steal a vehicle and head to stop Barton. Speaking of Barton, we’re treated to a deliciously dark scene between him and his mother. It was pretty obvious that the woman strapped to a chair in his bad guy lair had to be his mother, but that didn’t make it any less funny.  This guy is such a piece of work that not even his mother likes him. He tells her that she is to be the first person to be subjected to his grand scheme. After being taken over by blue electricity, she appears to die. What a dick.

Back in Paris, the Doctor realises Noor is a British spy. Using her telegraph, the Doctor baits the Master by tapping out four beats- the heartbeat of a Time Lord. Unable to resist, the Master taps four beats in response to the Doctor. What happened next was one of the coolest things I’ve seen on Doctor Who in a while. The Doctor and the Master make contact telepathically, something of which hasn’t been seen in the show for years. I quite literally threw my hands up into the air with joy. Kudos to Chris Chibnall for giving me the nerd feels.

The Doctor and the Master meet up atop the Eifel Tower where they have a rather intimate conversation. We find out it was the Master who killed C in the previous episode. So yes, they did waste Stephen Fry, which officially makes me a disappoint. The Doctor deduces that the Master isn’t actually in control of the Kasaavin. Instead, the Master has merely allied himself with them, claiming to have given them a broader scope of vision. I’m not exactly sure how going from wanting to take over the universe to taking over a small planet is a broadening in scope, but stop asking questions and watch the show.

Now, remember how I just gave kudos to Chris Chibnall? Well, I am going to have to take those back. In an attempt to delay the Master, the Doctor gives him away to the Nazis. She makes them think he is a British spy and directs them to their location. However, not only does she do this, but she also disables his perception filters. So effectively, the Doctor, a white woman, gives up a brown man to the Nazis. It wasn’t enough to make them think he’s a spy, they had to also see that he had brown skin. I was honestly a bit disgusted by this. How would they even recognise him as the same guy they were told was a spy? They’re going to arrive and find a person of colour in a Nazi uniform and not know who he was. Jesus Christ, Chibnall.

The Doctor uses the Master’s TARDIS to get back to the present time, just in time to find Barton unrolling his big plan. He goes on a long speech about how we give all of our information to corporations and how we should watch who we allow to pry into our privacy. It’s the social media equivalent of "Don’t blink." It’s a very effective bit of writing on par with one of Steven Moffat’s better speeches. It’s a shame it was preceded by the Doctor selling the Master out to Nazis.

So what’s the big plan? Well, remember the spy woman in part one whose DNA had been rewritten? And remember how Barton was only 93% human? It turns out that the Kasaavin plan to rewrite the DNA of the human race and turn us into hard drives by storing information within our DNA. They do so by using our smartphones and tablets against us. In the same arc of blue electricity as Mother Barton, people all over the world begin to be assimilated. During this entire press conference scene, I’m not sure if any of the actors in the audience were given proper direction as they have the most benign faces throughout most of this. Barton, whose speech went from zero to megalomaniacal in the first few seconds, should have sent up red flags across the room, but instead, they were as serene as cows. It was bizarre.

That was it, that was the big plan. Turn people into hard drives. I think? I had to ask a few of my friends what they thought it was supposed to be because I was worried I had missed something. Were they trying to take over the bodies of humans so they could have corporeal form? If so, then why say they wanted to store data in our DNA? Why do they need so much data storage anyway? Have they got a huge stash of hentai in their universe? Were they torrenting all of Doctor Who? Seriously, I do not understand their motivation or their methods. But honestly, I hardly care, because the real star of the show is the Master.

Having waited 77 years, the Master shows up just in time to be kind of late to the show. Like, he didn’t even buy a gun in that time. I do however look forward to the Big Finish audios pertaining to that era of his life. However, in the meantime, the Doctor took it upon herself to put a bug in the Kasaavin’s system which negates their mission and reverses the conversion. She informs the Kasaavin that the Master had planned to double-cross them. As they depart from our universe, they take the Master with them, but not before he mentions to the Doctor that Gallifrey was destroyed.

After getting Ada and Noor to their respective timelines, the Doctor goes to see Gallifrey for herself. Sure enough, the once-great Time Lord society has been raised to the ground. It’s a powerful bit of acting on Jodie Whittaker’s behalf. Devastated, the Doctor returns to the TARDIS only to be greeted by a hologram of the Master telling her it was him that did it, as a sort of act of punishment or vengeance. This is a much needed source of motivation for the Master’s current rage, considering how much of a departure it is from Missy’s redemption arc. Remember the timeless child storyline I’ve been dreading? Well, I’m genuinely surprised to be sitting here today to tell you that it has piqued my interest. Having something to do with the founders of Time Lord society, Rassilon and Omega, the implication is that their legend is based upon a lie, thus the Master’s final warning to the Doctor at the end of part one. 

So who is the timeless child? Well, I am relieved to say I don’t think it’s the Doctor. My wildest guess is that she was some sort of person that didn’t experience time like the rest of us and was killed to harness that power. Think Rusty Venture powering his dream machine with the heart of an orphan. Like I said, my wildest guess. The biggest takeaway from all of this is that I’m sitting here speculating about Doctor Who. With Moffat’s plotlines oftentimes leading nowhere interesting, I had grown wary of speculation. Why wonder what was next when it was most likely something disappointing? It’s nice to feel intrigued by Doctor Who again.

Upon returning to her fam, the Doctor is distant and quiet. The companions can tell something is up, but as they decided earlier, they needed to have a talk with the Doctor. The Doctor concedes and tells them the basics- she’s a Time Lord, she’s from Gallifrey, she can regenerate her body, the Master was her friend. This bit of truth on her behalf seems to please the trio as they don’t press the issue further. The Doctor throws the TARDIS into gear and we’re left lingering on her face for a moment before the episode ends.

Afterwards, my wife and boyfriend and I sat in silence. As the biggest Whovian in the house, I think they were waiting for my reaction. And in some ways, I think I was too. I really enjoyed the episode, I did. But I had my issues, which I’ve listed extensively above. My main qualms at that time were of structure. Much like the first episode, this one was clunky. The pacing was definitely better than last time, but still had issues. But otherwise, I needed to think about what I had just seen. I liked the anti-fascism angle, save for the Doctor selling out the Master to the Nazis. And there were a lot of great callbacks to classic Who. My wife had checked out at the DNA storage bit because she’s a giant nerd and was feeling nitpicky about the science in a science fiction show. But it was Duncan whose comments I think were the most on point. He told me that he, as a casual viewer, was lost throughout much of the episode. For him, a little bit of explanation peppered throughout the episode would have gone a long way.

One of the most persistent flaws in classic Doctor Who is that oftentimes they would explain what was happening within the final episode of a story, leaving you in the dark for the first few episodes. In the same way, Spyfall had left him feeling lost. I even said it recently that I am not the kind of fan Doctor Who needs to please. I will watch the show regardless of its quality. If someone as fanatical as myself was feeling confused, imagine how my boyfriend felt. It is, as he said, why people start tuning out. The show is on course to what may possibly be one of it’s best seasons in years. I’m hoping that the next few episodes give us a bit of breathing room before throwing us back into the deep end.

[bellatrixobsessed1]

A Flame For A Cabbage (Season Finale)

Azula wanders around somewhat aimlessly. She doesn’t know where she is or how she got here. She is conflicted as to how she should feel about this place. On one hand, there are cabbages everywhere, all sorts of them; cabbages that look to be made of emerald, albino cabbages, spotted cabbages, and spirit cabbages among others. On the other hand, there is no one to sell them to. Not that she can see anyhow.

Being an opportunist, Azula harvests several of these stranger cabbage varieties. She holds one up to the half-light of the jungle canopy. She wonders if she might be dead. That would explain her confusion and the odd cabbages. But Azula doesn’t feel like she has died. She doesn’t know how she would have. Unless she had been a silent host for the virus this whole time and it has finally claimed her. Or maybe she had fallen off of the blue dragon.

It might just be that the void has simply decided to claim her this time around. Granted, she always thought that the void would be a lot darker and with less cabbages.

“Avatar Yangchen, the monks always taught me that all life is sacred. Even the life of the tiniest spider-fly caught in its own web.” She hears a familiar voice.

“Yes. All life is sacred. Well, except for the life of that one mosquito that got in my mouth and bit my tongue.”

Aang blinks, he has never heard of a mosquito doing that before. “I know, I'm a vegan.” He declares proudly.

“Avatar Aang, I know that you're a gentle spirit, and the monks have taught you well, but this isn't about you. Not everything is about you.”

“Hey, Avatar.” Azula cuts in.

“But I’m the main character.” Aang ignores her.

“Many great and wise Air Nomads have detached themselves and achieved spiritual enlightenment, but the Avatar can never do it. Because your sole duty is to the world. Here is my wisdom for you; take a glock and cap a bitch!” With her piece having been said, Yangchen disappears like dust in a breeze.

Momo emerges from behind a tree, bench pressing a log thrice his height and weight. “I guess I don't have a choice, Momo.” Aang comments. “I have to kill the Fire Lord.” He says it as though he had never caused enough collateral damage to kill a background character. But that doesn’t really matter, because background characters still don’t have feelings anyways. In fact, Ozai has just killed a background character for the lolz. He opens each summer with an annual festival wherein background characters are hunted for sport. Aang has never partaken in such a monstrosity but he has killed so many background characters without knowing it, that it is hypocritical of him to be angry at Ozai for killing background characters.

“Avatar!” Azula says, but she says it into a megaphone so Aang jolts and falls off of his rock. It is fine though, because Momo holds him upright. Momo is still bench pressing a log.

“Yes, Azula?”

“Since it is only you and I right now, I have no choice but to ask you if you would like to buy a cabbage.”

“Not right now, Azula. I have to save the world.”

Azula rolls her eyes. Main characters are sooo dramatic. Azula is glad that she is not a main character. The reader is reminded that she is a main character and is granted a reminder of how she silently wept to herself, clutching her favorite cabbage and a roll of toilet paper because she realized that letting go of her boyfriend was a mistake and she is lonely. “Look, Avatar, cabbages are the world.”

“They’re your world, Azula.” Aang replies firmly. “One of these days you’re going to have to realize that there’s more to life than selling and growing cabbages.

Azula gasps in offense and clutches her hand over her heart. For a moment she thinks of Jet. Instead she says, “no, Avatar. Cabbages are the most important thing.”

“I don’t have time for cabbages. I have to…” He pauses. “Hey, you’re really good at plans and stuff! How can I save the world without killing the Fire Lord?”

“I will tell you, if you buy a cabbage.” Azula replies smuggly.

Aang groans and fishes out a few gold pieces and thrusts them into her palm.

“Have you tried using quantum physics to replace this world’s Ozai with one whose worst crime was telling one extrodinarily awful dad joke?” Azula asks.

“Azula, I don’t know how to do that.” Aang replies.

“Oh.” She responds. “Well you aren’t getting your money back.”

.oOo.

“You sent for us, Princess. Is everything all right?” The head dailluminati agent greets.

“Actually, everything's not all right!” Sie looks behind him. There is nothing there, nothing of importance. The thing that is not alright is that he cannot seem to remember his Netflix password and he still has to finish Pretty Little Liars. “Do you know my Netflix password?”

“Uh ... password?” The man answers.

Sie types that in, only to be denied access once more. Even if he does find the right password, it does not matter because TVs do not exist. His Nexflix does not exist. Sie blinks, what was he trying to do again?

He thinks it over. That’s right, his father has left after crowning himself the Phoenix King. Unfortunatly for the world, the spirit that had possessed his soul, causing him to do ridiculous things like own a flamingo rock garden and bulk buy an excess of toilet paper has fled. Ozai is now a complete and unrepentant asshole again. He made sure that everyone knew it by looking Sie dead in the eye and telling him, “you are no daughter of mine. You are a mere peasant. A waste of space.”

“But, father…” Sie had started.

“I am not your father.” The man spat, before making his way to his airship. It had been like a knife in Sie’s chest. He does not know why his father is treating him like this so suddenly.

It haunts him as he sits on his throne. At least he thinks that it is his throne now that his father is gone.  He doesn’t even hear the dialluminati agent apologize to him. Nor does he notice the lizard people who have assembled in the room. They chatter amongst themselves, something about a very important meeting for the superior species. A series of beams flash down and suddenly Sie is alone in the throne room. Alone and pacing back and fourth.   It is all falling apart, everything is falling apart. He can’t let it fall apart or he will have to deal with her wrath…

.oOo.

Azula folds her arms over her chest. She has to admit that she is growing bored. She had always thought that the coming of Sozin’s comet would be more exciting. More bombastic! But it is actually quite peaceful. This strange island has a nice and balmy breeze. The only sound comes from the lapping of the ocean and the rustling of a breeze.

“Where am I?” She wonders out loud. Really, she ought to get back to the Fire Nation. She has cabbages to sell and her new business partner to talk to. Though she thinks that the Jasmine Dragon might be closed being as the Earth Kingdom is about to be burned to the ground. Azula scoffs, wondering whose foolish idea that was. What. A. Moron.

“Hey, so this island is actually just a giant lion-turtle!” Aang calls from afar.

“Fascinating.” Azula mutters uncaringly. “Does it know how I can sell cabbages to a nation that is focused completely on war?”

“I’m not sure, he’s talking to Momo about his workout routines.”

.oOo.

“Attention, crew, this is your captain speaking. Everyone please report to the bomb bay immediately for pan-fried noodles and roast duck.” Sokka announces. Azula feels a faint pang of jealousy that she cannot place.   “We have a very special birthday to celebrate.” But they won’t be celebrating any birthdays, they are practicing social distancing.

“Hey, I'm Qin Lee. I work up in communications.” Qin introduces himself.

“Oh, hi. I work down in the engine room. That's probably why we never met before. Big airship, you know?” Replies the man casually. “So, do you know whose birthday it is?”

Qin is about to tell the man that it is his birthday when another man approaches and exclaims, “I can't believe the captain remembered my birthday. He really does care.”

Qin coughs, “he was actually talking about my birthday.”

But Sokka wasn’t talking about any of their birthdays. With the press of a button the void opens up and claims its remaining sacrifices. It has been appeased. Sozin’s comet will not demolish the world as they know it, Bosco and his band of furious furries will not return, and the universes will not merge together in a chaotic and destructive blend. This, however, excludes Earth Kingdom Azula, whose eyebrows allow her to travel through time and space. But she is only eight years old so she does not yet know how to use her eyebrows to ignore the laws that hold the universe together as everyone knows it. What she does know how to do is use her eyebrows to blast holes in the walls as Suyin shrieks in agitation.

.oOo.

Azula yawns, she wishes that the Avatar would hurry his conversation up so that she may speak with the lion-turtle.

“...but I don’t want to kill him! I can’t kill him, I’m a vegan!” He throws his arms up in the air. “There’s got to be another way. Azula said that I should try to bend time and space but I don’t think that I can master that on time.”

Azula rolls her eyes. “That’s the wonderful thing about bending time and space. You don’t have to know what you’re doing.” She gives her bangs a lazy flick. “Really, the less you know how to do, the more effective you will be. Just tear a hole into the delicate balance and let the chaos take care of the Fire Lord for you.”

Aang blinks. This is uncharacteristically sinister for the usually peaceful cabbage merchant.

“Now move aside and let me speak with the lion-turtle so he can bless me with the wisdom I need to improve my marketing strategies and people skills.”

“Do you understand, avatar?” The lion-turtle asks.

“Can you repeat that last part?”

The lion-turtle nods before speaking in tongues. “If you can memorize that chant and successfully analyze the fire lord’s zodiac as it applies to the comet, you will be able to take his bending from him. If you do really well, you can also take his soul, his dignity, and his left sock.”

Aang nods. “Thank you…”

“Chuck.” The lion-turtle says. “You can call me Chuck.”

“Finally.” Azula mutters. “Help me face the lion-turtle.”

Never passing an opportunity to show off his swol legs, Momo lifts Azula up and holds her in front of the lion-turtle.

“Do you mind?” Azula frowns up at Aang.

“You listened to my conversation!” Aang points out.

“You aren’t trying to run a business. I can’t have any potential competition knowing my strategies.” In reality, she is planning on asking the lion-turtle for romance advice and she does not need the avatar to see her get all flustered upon thinking of Jet and his beautiful abs. “Don’t you have a Fire Lord to face?” She asks.

“I don’t wanna.” Aang whines.

“Well then I guess that everyone you know and love will die.” Azula says nonchalantly.

Aang shrugs. He isn’t too worried; both he and Jet died and came back.

“My parents aren’t home.” Azula says.

Being as the void still has some influence, the world seems to glitch. A fizzy, staticy image seems to overlay Aang’s face, making him appear like a blue hedgehog as he hastily makes his way to his glider. He has to go fast.

Azula gives a sigh of relief and watches the boy depart before turning back to the lion-turtle. “I have a problem.”

‘A’ is an understatement. She has several problems. Most of them pertain to the dipping of cabbage stocks. But there are a few that have to do with the fact that she still has not had her fill of roast duck and pan-fried noodles--at this point she is practically willing to eat her body weight in the stuff. Another such problem is that she had stepped in a puddle and now her socks are wet. But these aren’t her main concerns. “I had someone important to me. He’s gloriously beautiful, he’s funny, and he taught me how to draw dickbutt. I think that I...have a very deep attachment to him. But I have to focus on my cabbages because I...I love my cabbages.”

“Yes, go on.” The lion-turtle nods.

“I think that I am going to have to choose between Jet and my cabbages. I need a way to get Jet back without sacrificing my business.”

The lion-turtle lifts a claw and presses it to her forehead. She understands now. She understands everything. She knows how to make this right.

Momo sets her down beside her cabbages before he flies back to the lion-turtle’s face.

“So anyways, if you want legs like these,” comes an extremely deep bass voice, “you’re gonna have to do a lotta squats”

“Sick, dude.” Replies the lion-turtle.

.oOo.

Sie unfolds his lawn chair and lays back. Though the sun is not out, the comet shall provide him with enough heat to work on his tan. His coronation ceremony hasn’t yet started, possibly because Ozai had never given him the crown. Boy is Zuko going to be disappointed. He doesn’t know what they are going to fight over today. He takes a sip from his coconut drink as a sky bison obstructs the sunrays he that he is trying to bathe in. Sie smirks, he knows exactly what they will bicker over.

Yes, he will open by scolding his brother for blocking his sunlight and then he will hit him with the big one!

Zuko leaps off of the bison, a parachute expands. “You’re not going to become Fire Lord today!” He declares over the roar of the wind.

“What?” Sie asks, he cannot hear Zuko from this distance.

“You’re not going to become Fire Lord today!”

“What!?”

Zuko lands. “You’re not going to become Fire Lord today, I am.”

“Yeah, about that.” Sie says, missing his opportunity to begin the first fight. “Father never gave me the crown so neither of us will become Fire Lord today.” Sie shrugs.

Zuko frowns, “we can still fight over the crown for when father gets defeated.” Zuko suggests.

“Yes, I suppose that we can, brother.” Sie agrees. They are off to a horrible start with this whole arguing thing. “There’s only one way to settle this. Just you and me, brother. The showdown that was always meant to be. Rock, paper, scissors!” He whips out a small booklet, a rock, a piece of paper, and some scissors.

“You're on!”

“What are you doing? He’s playing you. He knows hhe can't take us both, so hhe's trying to separate us.”

Zuko shakes his head, “we’ve been playing Monop-uno  since we were kids. It’s a two player game.”

“But even you admitted to your uncle that you would need help facing Sie.”

“It’s fine, my sister has always been awful at rock, paper, scissors and this way, no one else has to get hurt.”

Katara nods and Sie and Zuko stand on opposite ends of the courtyard, kneeling as you do before beginning a game of rock, paper, scissors. It is always best to start any board, card, or any kind of game by kneeling before your God and asking for protection lest the game transform itself into an ouija board and you find yourself dealing with Zozo the board demon.  The camera pans to show Zuko kneeling on his side of the courtyard and then to Sie kneeling on his. And then to Zuko standing up and turning around; he slips on a banana peel as he does and topples. The camera pans out again to show Azula passionately making out with Jet. This is an error; that was supposed to have been a private moment. The camera pans out to Sie who removes his sunglasses, for he does not have a ceremonial robe to remove.

“I'm sorry it has to end this way, brother.” Sie says.

“No you're not.”

With that the battle begins. But if you look into the portal nestled in the corner of the courtyard you can glimpse at another world entirely. Another world where Azula and Zuko are about to face each other. In this world the conversation was much longer.

“No you’re not.” Zuko says.

“Yes I am.” Responds Azula.

“Are not.” Zuko replies.

“Am to!” Azula insists.

“Are not!”

“Am to!”

“Are not!”

“Am to!”

“aRE NoT!”

“I am TO!”

They do this until Sozin’s comet passes and then stand in solidarity, weeping because they have both missed their chance to spectacularly show off their firebending. They hug each other and cry. They apologize to each other for being little assholes. Katara rolls her eyes and shakes her head; that whole family is full of drama queens.

In this world, Zuko and Sie take up their stances. Zuko makes the mistake of revealing his choice in his stance by holding out his pointer and middle fingers. He improvises by pretending to bend lightning. Sie scoffs, “lightningbending is forbidden until round three!”

“Sorry.” Zuko apologizes, “I was getting excited.”

“Rock! Paper! Scissors! Shoot! Long ago, the four hand signs lived together in harmony. Then, everything changed when the Shoot Nation attacked. Only the Cheater, master of all four hand signs, could stop them, but when the world needed him most, he vanished…”

“Katara, please.” Zuko says.

Katara coughs, “sorry, I was just trying to get in the spirit of the game.” She puts her foam finger away.

“You can still call ‘rock, paper, scissors, shoot’, if you want.” Sie says.

“I guess.” Katara shrugs.

.oOo.

Azula covers her ears, she does not know what that dreadful sound is, it is like a shrill ring combined with elevator music. It has a catchy beat, but, spirits, it should not be played while she is trying to have a moment with Jet! She wishes that the void would stop trying to talk to her while she is with Jet. At least she is assuming it is the void.

“Well that just killed the mood.” Jet remarks.

“Yeah…” Azula trails off. Truth be told, she was not ready for this yet. She thinks that it is too soon in their rekindled relationship to show him her mixtape, even if it is totally fire. “Maybe next time.”

“Sure, next time.” He smiles.

“Jet?”

“Yeah?”

“Do you really think that my business is going to fail?”

“What!? No! No! I just said that because I was mad.”

Azula smiles, she might actually be getting teary-eyed. “Well, I’ve only sold a single cabbage, and I was only able to sell that one by taking advantage of someone’s frustration.”

Jet laughs, “that’s how you’ve always sold your cabbages! By manipulating and taking advantage of people, you’re doing great!”

“Yes, but I usually manipulate and take advantage of more than one person…”

“Well, you always make your best sales in the midst of disaster, and it just so happens that we are in the middle of the biggest battle in over a hundred years!” He gestures to the fire and chaos in the streets of Ba Sing Se--for this is where the lion-turtle has dropped her off. People are screaming and wailing and panic buying more toilet paper, forgetting that toilet paper is very flammable. “I mean, the Fire Lord is about to burn the entire Earth Kingdom to the ground!”

Azula’s eyes light up. “You’re right! This is absolutely catastrophic! I-I think that I can do this.”

Jet takes her hands, “you can do this.”

.oOo.

“Tag, you’re it!” Zuko declares.

Sie curses. He picks up a dodge ball and chucks it at Zuko who dodges it and dashes for the nearest pair of scissors that he can find. Sie throws another dodge ball. Zuko sets this one on fire as his fingers curl around the scissors. Sie takes this chance to grab a rock.

Zuko snarls, before recalling something important. “I am on base!”

“Ha!” Sie calls, “base has moved over there!” He points across the courtyard.

Zuko curses.

“One point to princess Sie!” Declares one of the spectating Dailluminati agents.

“BOOOOO!” Hollars Bumi, who has flown in from all the way in Omasok to witness this event. He is not pleased at the current standing.

Sie chucks the dodge ball once more. Zuko leaps out of the way. “What no paper today?” He shouts. “Afraid I’ll use scissors!?”

“Oh, I’ll show you paper!” Sie spits. He takes a deep breath and pulls out a sheet of fine art paper. Zuko drops into a defensive stance. Katara and Bumi bite their nails. The Dailluminati agent steps out to take a phone call.

Sie begins quickly and meticulously folding the paper into an origami turtle-duck. Zuko’s eye go wide. Sie’s look between Zuko and Katara. “Quack, quack, bitches.” He says with a smirk as he throws the duck at Katara.

“Nooooooo!” Zuko throws himself between Katara and the origami turtle-duck. Zuko lands with a harsh thud and the origami turtle-duck lazily drifts down and lands harmlessly upon him.

It then explodes and transforms into a real turtle-duck. The turtle-duck doubles in size and begins judging Zuko’s fashion choices and life-decisions until he can handle no more.

“Zuko!” Katara calls. “Don’t listen to it, your outfit is on point!”

Sie cackles madly, “but it doesn’t go with his eyes!”

Zuko weeps harder.

.oOo.

Azula confidently marches right into the epicenter of the chaos around her. She scans the crowd for the most horrified face. She comes upon a woman who is shrieking and begging the void to claim her before she can be burned alive.

“You!” She points at the woman as Jet begins singing the soulja boi.

The woman turns to her.

“As you can very clearly tell, you are going to die.” Azula pauses. “So you might as well spend every cent that you have on my cabbages.” It might be the firey backdrop or the way it casts swirling shadows around Azula. But the woman is absolutely terrified, she stumbles back before she practically throws the coins at Azula. The merchant collects them and hands her several cabbages. “Thank you for your business! Have a lovely day!”

“Th-th-thanks.” The woman shudders. “Please don’t hurt me.”

“That won’t be necessary.” Azula smiles. “But will it be necessary with you?” She turns to the man next to her.

“No, ma’m.” The man trembles and holds out a few coins.

“Wonderful!” Azula claps her hands together. “Enjoy your cabbages.”

Soon she doesn’t even need to approach her customers, they are coming to her. They actually want her cabbages. She is going to get so much roast duck and pan-fried noodles.

“Wow, Azula, you’re doing incredible!” Jet remarks.

“I know.” She agrees.

“Hey! Merchant!” Shouts a familiar voice and Azula’s blood runs cold. A Fire Nation soldier steps out of the crowd.

“No…” Azula mumbles.

“Yes.” The woman says.

“I will not allow you to set my cabbages on fire.” Azula declares and pulls out a John Cena knife--Mai is using her Kenu Reeves one--the soldier will never see it coming.

“Set them on fire?” The soldier asks.

“Yes.” Azula replies. “I know that you have been chasing me to set my cabbages on fire because you think that they are infected.”

“That’s not why I’m chasing you, merchant. I’m actually just here to return something that you dropped.”

Azula cocks her head, “oh.”

The woman hands her a picture. Azula feels around her pocket. Spirits, she hadn’t even realized that she dropped it.

“Aww, that’s the first dickbutt we drew together.” Jet smiles. The panicking crowd stops to give their own affectionate ‘aw’ and ‘that’s so cute’.

“Thank you.” Azula says. But the soldier is gone. No. Not gone.

“Sike!” The soldier yells. “That was just a decoy!” She sets Azula’s stall on fire.

Azula screams in anguish. It had been going so well. So, so well. And now…

Her stomach knots in rage and pain as her cabbages cry out in agony and torment. She balls her fists, it isn’t fair. It isn’t right. She has worked so hard for this. This was supposed to be her moment. Her big breakthrough.

Azula screams again. This time she can feel the rage flowing through her, opening each and every one of her chipoints. The energy swells and surges until it overflows. Her eyes glow a vivid blue and the crowd steps back. All but Jet.

Jet is a foolish man. When Azula enters the Farmer State, her power is unchecked and horribly deadly.

Large carrots and kumquats burst from the cracks in the ground. “You will suffer for destroying my cabbages.” Azula vows. But it isn’t just Azula speaking. It is also the souls of each and every deceased cabbage she has ever grown. They now lend her their unfathomable power.

“Azula, don’t do this.” Jet calls up to her levitating form. “You’ll kill all of these people.”

“Ehhh...they were going to get burned to a crisp anyways!” Azula shrugs as she sends a sharpened carrot crashing down. It nearly impales the soldier. Instead strikes the ground creating a crater in the center of town.

“Azula, please!” He begs.

But the merchant is too far gone. This doesn’t stop him from drawing nearer to her. A deadly rain of jalapeno peppers fall all around, mercilessly pelting the crowd.

Jet takes her hand. “Azula, I love you.”

Azula shudders, no one has ever done that before. No one but her cabbages.

“You don’t need your cabbages. You have me now.” He promises. “We could grow new cabbages. Better ones.”

“But what about the missed opportunity?” Azula frowns.

Her eyes still glow, but her body falls. Jet takes her into his arms. “There will be new ones. Better ones. You’ve partnered with the Jasmine Dragon!”

The glow fades from her eyes, she feels so terribly small. “But this was supposed to be my moment.”

“This is your moment.” Jet gives a soft and warm smile. He cups her cheek and gives her a gentle kiss. “This is our moment.”

The crowd gives another ‘awww’. The soldier grumbles to herself, for her boyfriend has just left her.

Maybe Jet is right, maybe life isn’t only about growing and selling cabbages. Maybe there is more to it. Jet squeezes her hand as Ozai’s air fleet reaches Ba Sing Se. Azula is glad that she has gotten a taste of true affection before she meets her demise.

Ozai steps further out onto the platform and takes a deep breath. He pulls out a megaphone, “princess Azula, it is time to end this foolishness.”

Azula groans to herself.

“This has gone too far!”

She folds her arms over her chest.

“Please come home, I am tired of the Cabbage Merchant, he is too needy!”

“I am the Cabbage Merchant, father!” Azula declares.

Ozai inhales sharply through his nose only and rubs an exasperated hand over his face. “You are the princess of the Fire Nation! You get on this airship right now and go to your room.”

“I will not.” Azula stands her ground. Jet slings his arm around her. She is a cabbage merchant now, this is her life!

Ozai claps his hands together and holds them to his mouth. “Okay, how about this. If you come home right now, I’ll let you keep your boyfriend.”

Azula keeps her arms firmly crossed. “I am staying right here with my boyfriend and my flaming cabbage stall.”

“Look, I’m sorry that I took your tank away, I might have overreacted a little.” Ozai gives in. “Please end this, whatever it is, and come home.”

Azula only offers him a smirk.

[grassbreads]

What it means to be Bard of Rage (thoughts on the epilogue and the Rage aspect)

Thanks to the epilogue, I think I finally have an understanding of the Rage aspect and what the fuck Gamzee's classpect is supposed to mean.  

TLDR: absolute truth is one of the big things under a Rage player's purview, and it's Gamzee's job as the Bard of Rage to obscure it.  

Throughout the history of the homestuck fandom and classpect analysis, I think I can say with fair certainty that Rage has always been the aspect least well understood.  Neither canon rage player ever goes God Tier or really does much to directly show their powers, and the personality quiz summary just brought up more questions than answers.  I mean, okay, we know that a Rage player would rather have anarchy based on truth than peace based on falsehood, but how does that translate to literal rage or to, y'know, actual powers?  I've been trying to figure it out for a while, and thanks to watching Gamzee's role in the epilogue, I think I finally have answers.  

Rage is the aspect of absolute truth and righteous anger.  Thanks to the really poor explanations we've been given by official sources, I think that Rage is best understood through its role as a foil to hope.  Hope is, among other things, the aspect of belief.  Through the power of Hope, the unbelievable becomes believable.  Thus, as the foil of Hope, Rage must be the aspect of truth.  Rage players boil reality down to what it is, nothing more or less, and they are filled with anger when that truth is challenged.  And based on the discussion of truth and canon in the epilogue, it seems likely to me that Rage players are also connected to canon.  

Through this interpretation of Rage, the Makaras finally start to make sense.  Gamzee is the Bard of Rage, the one who invites the destruction of truth and destruction through anger, and he fulfills this role perfectly.  

There are three instances in canon in which Gamzee's presence as the Bard of Rage has a visible effect.  The first occurs on the meteor, when he steps outside of his role as a passive player and fulfills a more Prince-like active destroyer role.  In this part of the story, Gamzee acts out the most literal interpretation of his class.  He is a destroyer and a Rage player, so he destroys in a fit of Rage.  I mean hell, we even call the state that he works himself into in that section "rage mode."  And with regards to the less literal sides of the aspect, the rage of his outburst is initially a reaction to Dave making fun of his religion.  And as absurd as it is, Gamzee's religion is very much rooted in truth.  To quote the comic, his religion "foretells of a BAND OF ROWDY AND CAPRICIOUS MINSTRELS which will rise one day on a MYTHICAL PARADISE PLANET that does not exist yet."  This sounds pretty damn stupid, but it's true.  One day on Earth, a planet that does not yet exist at Gamzee's time and that was meant to be a paradise planet for the game winning trolls, the Insane Clown Posse will one day exist.  And so Gamzee's Rage, fueled by righteous anger at the dismissal of his most closely held truth, is his tool for destruction.  

Then, later in the series, Gamzee falls more neatly into his role as a passive conduit for the destruction of truth.  A more subtle example of this can be seen in how Gamzee effects the pre and post-retcon timelines in the comic.  In the doomed timeline, Gamzee is an active agent.  He doesn't do a whole lot of his own volition except for date Terezi and then attack her in a rage once he's free from mind control, but his mere presence is enough.  He seeds chaos through his presence on the meteor and is used by Aranea to wreak havoc.  One of the changes to the timeline in the post-retcon route is his elimination, and this might be the most important change of all.  With Gamzee locked in the fridge and out of the picture, the characters can go on to win the game and become the alpha versions of themselves.  This is because Gamzee's presence as the passive destroyer of truth has been negated.  If he's there, then the story cannot be true.  

In essence, Gamzee’s presence in the doomed timeline facilitated the destruction of its truthfulness, and without this truthfulness (one of Rose’s three pillars), the timeline that he was active in was doomed to not be canon.  

A similar effect can also be seen in the epilogue’s candy route.  Here it’s John’s choice that dooms his timeline to be non-canon, but Gamzee’s presence makes things so much worse.  Once freed from the fridge, his presence eats away at the truth (at canon), sending the plot spiraling and confusing the characterization of those around him.  Not only does he obscure the truth of the narrative as he gains power in the epilogue, but his presence also erodes the truth (canon) of the people who spend too much time around him.  

The most obvious example of this can be found in Jane.  She spends more time with Gamzee than anyone else in the candy route, and her truth is the most destroyed as a result.  Meat route Jane isn’t a good person; she’s power hungry, cold, and xenophobic, not to mention being manipulated by Dirk.  However, she isn’t genocidal.  She has a misguided view of right and wrong with regards to trolls, but she’s not a sociopath.  I’d like to think that our Janey, no matter how warped, would have to draw the line at outright genocide.  With Gamzee by her side, however, all that goes right out the window.  His presence destroys her truth, and so she drifts from her canon self in the candy route, becoming nothing more than a caricature of her worst aspects.  

In short, Gamzee’s role as Bard of Rage is one of passive corruption.  He has his moments of active violence fueled by righteous anger, as any rage player would, but his main purpose is to simply exist as a conduit for the destruction of truth, and thus the destruction of canon.  

[elfrootaddict]

Now You Know - Chapter 5/8

CONTAINS SPOILERS - DO NOT READ ON UNTIL YOU HAVE COMPLETED DAI TRESPASSER DLC!

DESCRIPTION: Experience (my first) Lavellan’s thoughts and feelings during the final cut scene of the Trespasser DLC. Including her experience when she loses the Anchor.

Chapter 1 ¦ Chapter 2 ¦ Chapter 3 ¦ Chapter 4 ¦ Chapter 5 ¦ Chapter 6 ¦ Chapter 7 ¦ Chapter 8

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To all those in Solavellan Hell,

I have written this to not only express my emotions but to hopefully capture some of yours, too.

After completing Trespasser, and going through the hell that is the final cut scene, I had to do something. So, to help myself work through it, I’ve written (my first) Lavellan’s thoughts and experiences down during the DLC’s final cut scene.

This is my very first FanFic, so I hope it doesn’t turn out completely terrible. *fingers crossed*

Happy Dragon 4ge Day!

WARNING: Chapter 6 contains a moment of distress and gore. Read with sensitivity and discretion.

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CHAPTER 5

When Lavellan was still Keeper Deshanna’s First, her priority was always to her clan and to the elves. Whether they were Dalish, city-born, followed the Qun or slaves of Tevinter. She always held the deepest, most sincere hope that there would come a day when the elves could be what they once were. That there was a forgotten ruin that contained the key to achieving that dream. Surely the past was better than their present? The answer was out there somewhere.

But after being thrown into the role as Inquisitor, she saw both the true beauty and ugliness of Thedas. Even though Keeper Deshanna had an open mind about the shemlen, which helped her not be so narrow-minded like other Dalish elves, she still hadn’t really seen the whole of Thedas.

There is a vast array of beliefs, cultures and practices. So many different types of shemlen! They truly weren’t one and the same. After her years as Inquisitor, she realised how small her world really was amongst the Dalish. 

This world may not be what it once was. It may not be Elvhenan. But it is still magnificent. It is my home. Everybody matters. The elves are not the one and only important race. No time is more important than another. 

Lavellan wants to do right by the Elvhen and improve their lives. Solas is that missing key. He can achieve what she has been dreaming for her people. But her eyes have been opened to what Thedas contained. It cannot be destroyed. 

She can also see how incredibly torn Solas is. Does he truly want to do this? Does he even have a choice?

There has to be another way. A different way. We can figure it out together, vhenan.

“Let me help you Solas.” begs Lavellan.

With his back still towards her, he rejects her assistance, “I cannot do that to you, vhenan.” 

She thinks back to being in the Fade. Solas’s gravestone of fear read ‘dying alone’. He did not see her notice it. She’s kept this knowledge of him to herself. But nevertheless, she knows one of his deepest fears and this causes great distress in her heart.

With her voice shaking and desperate she cries, “But you would do it to yourself? I cannot bear to think of you alone.”

“I walk the Din’Anshiral,” replies Solas with distress. “There is only death on this journey. I would not have you see what I become.”

Crushed, Lavellan closes her yes and drops her head. 

I will always love you, Solas. I will always accept you. Don’t you understand? 

Turning around to face Lavellan, Solas’s tone of voice changes. He is always better at suppressing his emotions than she is. Like simply blowing out a candle’s flame. 

In a matter-of-fact sort of way, Solas changes the subject, “It is my fight. You should be more concerned about the Inquisition. Your Inquisition. In stopping the Dragon’s Breath, you have prevented an invasion by Qunari forces. With luck, they will return their forces to Tevinter. That should give you a few years of relative peace.”

With her emotions all over the place, that nearly makes her burst out laughing. Why would he suddenly care about the safety of Thedas, when moments ago he declared he was planning on destroying it? And was it really ‘her’ Inquisition? Solas has clearly been using the Inquisition to right a wrong. How many spies are there? She didn’t believe herself to be naive, but now she feels foolish. She does not like to be made a fool of. 

Now frustrated, her anger helps focus her thoughts. She is still Inquisitor and is going to get as much information out of him as possible. She knows she isn’t going to get a chance like this again.

“The Qunari said the Inquisition was unknowingly working for the agents of Fen’Harel.” asks Lavellan angrily, feeling deceived.

“I gave no orders.” Solas replies promptly.

Irritated she says, “You led us to Skyhold.”

“Corypheus should of died unlocking my Orb. When he survived, my plans were thrown into chaos,” he pauses. “When you survived, I saw the Inquisition as the best hope this world had of stopping him. And you needed a home. Hence, Skyhold.”

“You gave your Orb to Corypheus?” Lavellan asks with disgust. 

“Not directly,” Solas answers. “My agents allowed the Venatori to locate it. The Orb had built up magical energy while I lay unconscious for millennia. I was not powerful enough to open it. The plan was for Corypheus to unlock it, and for the resulting explosion to kill him. Then I would claim the Orb.” 

Solas looks down towards the ground and shakes his head in disbelief. “I did not forsee a Tevinter magister having learned the secret of effective immortality.”

With a quiet and downcast voice she asks, “What would have happened if Corypheus had died and you’d recovered the Orb?”

With his face unveiling the amount of remorse in his heart, “I would have entered the Fade, using the mark you now bear. Then I would have torn down the Veil. As this world burned in the raw chaos, I would have restored the world of my time… the world of the elves.”

“If you destroyed the Veil, wouldn’t the false gods be freed?” Lavellan asks alarmed. 

“I had plans.” he answers assertively. 

Lavellan is picturing Solas as... Corypheus. He has indeed changed in her eyes. In her mind's eye she sees him holding the Orb and disintegrating the Veil. She can’t stomach the fact that, should things have turned out as planned, Solas would of been the one responsible for the chaos that ensued. 

He is so tenderhearted, thoughtful, respectable and gentle. She can hear Varric saying, “It’s always the quiet ones.”

She knows his heart. But his mind has always been a mystery. She refuses to believe that Solas is completely alone in this decision. There has to be more elements at play here. 

She can see his heart and mind battling each other. He may be good at playing nonchalant, but she knows him better than he realises. There is something he is not telling her. Perhaps if he did, he would have to admit he needs help. Her help. 

Shaking her head in disbelief, “I never thought of you as someone who would do that, Solas.”

He looks away with relief, “Thank you.” 

Solas attempts to convince her, “You must understand. I awoke in a world where the Veil had blocked most people’s conscious connection to the Fade. It was like walking through a world of Tranquil.”

Disturbed she asks, “We aren’t even people to you?”

“Not at first,” he says. “You showed me that I was wrong… again,” looking down with guilt he murmurs. “That does make what must come next any easier.” 

Despite all that has transpired, Solas still stayed to defeat Corypheus. Even though it seems pointless to her now, she always prided herself in displaying her appreciation towards others. It is something Keeper Deshanna ingrained into her.

“Whatever your reasons,” says Lavellan. “We couldn’t have defeated Corypheus without you.”

“Your doubts are misplaced,” declares Solas. “Everything you accomplished, you earned.” 

Lavellan feels comforted by his praise. She constantly craves for his approval in her decisions. He always had a wealth of knowledge and wisdom on hand. She thrives on learning from those around her and Solas had in abundance. 

Remembering his concern over the Inquisition, she has to know his thoughts on the matter. He would clearly offer sound advice that would be imperative to hear. 

“What’s wrong with the Inquisition?” she inquires. 

Solas gladly bestows his counsel, “You created a powerful organisation, and now it suffers the inevitable fate of such: betrayal and corruption.”

“It’s not that simple.” says Lavellan ignorantly. 

With an air of superiority he explains, “Do you know how I discovered the Qunari plot? The plot I disrupted by leading them to your doorstep? The Qunari spies in the Inquisition tripped over my spies in the Inquisition. The elven guard who let you to the Qunari body, who intercepted the servant with the gaatlok barrel? Mine.”

“Why bother disrupting the Qunari plot, if you’re going to destroy the world regardless?” asks Lavellan in disgust. 

He answers sympathetically, “You have shown me that there is value in this world, Inquisitor. I take no joy in what I must do. Until that day comes, I would see those recovering from the Breach free of the Qun.”

“Why?” she asks bewildered. 

“Because I am not a monster,” proclaims Solas. “If they must die, I would rather they die in comfort.” he pauses. “In any event, it is done.”

Lavellan feels indebted to him. He helped her and Thedas… again. 

“I guess we owe you for that one, too.”

“I hope it gives your people some final peace.”

Without warning, Lavellan feels her mark starting to violently pulse in the palm of her hand. Cursing the Anchor in her mind she realises she has finally run out of time. Unlike Solas, she has never had a problem admitting she needs help. She needs his help. And she needs it now.

Trying to shake away the pain, in discomfort she says, “There’s still the matter of the Anchor. It’s getting worse.”

Solas looks away with grief, “I know, vhenan. And we are running out of time.”

And just like that, the Anchor flares up and it is the worst pain she has ever felt. It completely cripples her and she is unable to stand. The Anchor even propels her body forward. She has absolutely no control. Clenching and supporting her left forearm with her right hand, she grunts and cries with agony.

Solas slowly kneels down in front of her and says, “The mark will eventually kill you. Drawing you here gave me the chance to save you… at least for now.”

Lavellan feels she finally understands his determination and conviction. Solas is a loyal servant of Mythal. He knew the All-Mother. From the Dalish tales and what Solas has described, Mythal was clearly the voice of reason amongst the Evanuris. She was wise in her judgements and loved by all who lived in Elvhenan. Solas’s loyalty to Mythal is enduring. And therefore, Solas has to see Mythal avenged and the lives of the elves restored to what it once was.

If she was in Solas’s position, she would also most likely be making the same choice. 

Their love did complicate matters. It was clearly unforeseen and something neither of them expected. 

Nevertheless, their love did happen. Their love has turned into a force unto itself. You can feel it in the air around them. It didn’t diminish in the time that they were apart - if anything, it only grew stronger. 

Even if Solas wouldn’t admit it to her or himself, she knows this is not the end. She knows him to be stubborn but she is stubborn, too. 

I may not save you today, my heart. But I will save you from yourself. I will not give up on you.

The Anchor has almost depleted all the energy she has left in her. She can feel her mind beginning to fade. The pain is just too much. 

In a desperate attempt, she cries, “Solas, var lath vir suledin!”

Looking down with remorse he says, “I wish it could, vhenan.”

Lavellan no longer holds back her tears. She has no more energy left for pretenses. Between the pain in her heart and her hand she can’t tell which one is more agonising.

Solas starts to lean in closer to her and whispers, “My love…”

Holding the side of her face in his hand, he guides her closer to him. His eyes light up with the same magic as before. Lavellan tries her best to ignore the pain of the Anchor and to just focus on him. 

She has never felt more at peace than when he is this close to her. This is where she belonged. This is where he belonged. When he finally kisses her, she can feel his yearning. She can feel his heart being torn in two. 

Should the Anchor kill her now, there would be no better way to die. She is in his embrace and that is all she could ask for. 

It doesn’t have to be this way, my Dread Wolf! You could stay! I can see it on your face!

Solas slowly stands up. With utter despair, only for her to hear, he whispers, “I will never forget you.”

Lavellan is still on her knees. The Anchor renders her powerless. She cannot move. She cannot run after him. 

He is walking away. 

For whatever it is worth, she can still use her voice. She has to try. 

With Solas almost reaching the eluvian, and with tears flooding down her face she cries after him, “Don’t leave me like this! Solas! Solas!”

Solas reaches the Eluvian. He stops. 

And without looking back, he steps through.

[bucky-my-barnes]

Preference #1: How You Meet!

Tony:

Walking down the sidewalk minding your own business on the way to work you overhear a loud crash followed by a woman screaming. Throwing your phone in your bag you headed towards the screaming to see if you could help, you were a nurse after all. Upon reaching the scene you see a lady standing over a child who wasn’t moving and a car smoking against a fire hydrant that was spraying everywhere. Leaning down you wanted to tend to the child seeing he wasn’t breathing at all and covered in injuries.

Quickly you started administering CPR not noticing the sounds going on around you as something large clearly landed beside you. Coughing the child gasps for air, turning you see Iron Man next tp you. “Please take him to the hospital, I’ll phone ahead and tell them you are coming!”You pleaded with him taking the child and setting them in his suit covered arms.

Obviously you knew who it was, you did watch the news after all, and there was no one better to help than a Superhero! Seeing him nod and take off the jets thrusting him up into the air. For some reason you couldn’t help but hope you would see him again.

Steve:

A long time ago your parents had become in debt to the wrong people, and now you found yourself forced to be an agent of HYDRA. Not that you wanted to be of course, but it was the only way you could secure your little sisters freedom. Not only did they make you to hurt people, but they also forced you to undergo experiments at their whimsy. Unfortunately none of the powers you developed could hurt anyone, quite the contrary as you found yourself able to speed up cell growth and heal people. It also worked on plants which if you saw nature much might excite or even help you.

Stalking down the corridors doing your usual guard duty since they didn’t trust you to do much else at that point, you heard a loud banging followed by the alarms sounding. A breech was made somewhere, and that meant that you were now very much in danger from whatever force could infiltrate a HYDRA base. Someone wearing a red, white, and blue costume rounded the corner making you feel as if your heart was in your throat. Taking a deep breath you close your eyes and wait for what was going to happen next but nothing came.

“Drop your weapon and I won’t hurt you.”The deep voice rang out firmly causing you to drop it almost immediately. “Come with me you don’t have to do this.”He pleaded the look behind his eyes telling you that he was being truthful.

“I can’t they will take my sister if I leave.”You say biting your lower lip softly before taking off running in the opposite direction dreading the consequences you would face later for not addressing the threat.

Clint:

Coming out of the military, the Army to be specific you had no idea what you were going to do now that you were just a civilian. It felt weird to be out of fatigues and back into jeans but after serving your time and then some you were looking forward to having some sort of semblance of a life. Where the choices you made were your own, and you had a soft bed to sleep in at night especially the same bed every night. However as you walked around your old stomping grounds in New York you felt the ground start to rumble. Suddenly out of almost now where there were Chitauri everywhere to be seen, people screaming and things turning to chaos around you.

Grabbing your pistol out of your ankle holster you knew you only had a good six shots at most in it, so you would only use it when necessary. Quickly you began helping people get out of the way and into a place that would hopefully be safer. One of the creatures decided to try and take you out, so you quickly shot it in the head watching it drop to the ground in front of you. Unfortunately that kept you distracted long enough that you didn’t hear the one land behind you, and it swung out grabbing your leg forcing you into the air.

The next thing you knew you were hurdling towards the ground, an arrow now sticking out of it’s skull killing it immediately. There was nothing you could do but fall from that height and embrace your death… until you felt a pair of warm arms around you effectively catching you. “Falling for me already?”The blonde man asked with a chuckle.

Bruce:

Today was an exciting day because at your university there was going to be a couple of guest speakers to talk about the importance of studying science. While it wasn’t exactly the type of science you were studying which was Environmental Science, it was open to you as a science major. So when you had the chance to listen to two Avengers speak, there was no way you weren’t going to take on that opportunity. Opening the door you knew you were kind of early, but as you had always been taught to be. Taking a seat in the front row you didn’t even acknowledge that they were setting up on the stage.

Looking down at your phone you made sure to let your roommate know that you weren’t going to be home until later because of the talk. Hearing someone clear their throat in front of you jarred you from your current thought. Gazing up your (e/c) eyes met with soft brown ones in return, clearly this was Dr. Bruce Banner standing before you. “You are a little early aren’t you?”He asked with a clear amused expression.

“Well like my Dad always told me, if you are on time, you’re late. I guess it’s still ingrained in me today.”You replied blushing.

“He seems like a wise man.”Bruce chuckled before winking and walking back towards the stage after someone beckoned him.

Thor:

When Jane called you and asked you to help break her and some others into a top secret SHIELD facility you couldn’t believe your ears. So you met up where she asked you to randevu them just outside of the fenced in area. Opening the back of the van you set your tools down and began getting them situated. “Alright so does someone want to explain to me what is going on?”You begin looking to Jane and Darcy with a confused expression.

“Well (Y/N), I think it is best if he explains.”Jane said pointing to a blonde haired man now standing beside you. Curiously you turned your expression towards him to let him speak, although you were taken aback by how handsome he was.

“If I may Lady/Sir (Y/N), my name is Thor, and my hammer Mjolnir is being held captive in there. If I can just get to it, I can prove who I am. We need your help, Lady Jane here says that you are our only hope. Please, I beg of you.”He said falling to his knees before you.

“Thor, as in Norse mythology Thor?”You asked scoffing almost unable to believe his story, but a part of you wanted it to be true. “Alright lock and load, let’s do this before I change my mind.”You sighed leading the way, your bag of tools in tow.

Loki:

Running around with your sister Lady Sif when you were a child it was only natural that you would encounter the Princes’ at some point. It seemed your sister was infatuated with Thor even then, but you didn’t see what she saw. In fact it was Loki that caught your attention, he just had an air about him that appealed to you. You admired his intelligence, and the fact that he could wield magic even though you had never seen it in person.

However you would never utter those words, and you didn’t have to for he read your mind. It was shocking to him that you would prefer his company over his brothers, it wasn’t everyday that people even paid attention to his presence but here you were. “Would you like to accompany me to the gardens and see the flowers?”Loki asked holding out his small hand waiting for you to put yours in it.

“I would love to my Prince.”You smiled taking his hand giving him a little bow/curtsy before following him, your sister long since forgotten. Not that she noticed your disappearance anyway, too caught up in Thor.

Pietro:

It was rather quickly that the two of you met, it was when everyone was fighting Ultron, you being a mutant and in the area you decided to lend your help to the Avengers. Everything was going on so fast but luckily you had the power to slow down time so when you saw a white haired man going to protect another man and a child it was a clear recipe for disaster. Keeping time as slow as possible you teleported over grabbing all of them before teleporting away again, resuming time as normal. The bullets hit the concrete but Wanda didn’t know that she thought her brother was gone ending the fight once and for all.

“Y-You saved me.”Pietro said blinking still not quite sure what had happened but he was grateful to be alive to say the least. “Thank you, I can’t thank you enough.”He blurted out hugging you tightly before letting go.

“Keep out of trouble Speedy.”You chuckled before winking and teleporting back to Xavier’s school.

Peter Parker:

When your father told you he was going to enroll you in Midtown, Peter’s school so you could keep an eye on him it didn’t exactly sit well. Not only was Peter not even aware of your existence, but he had no idea your father wanted someone to watch over him. However when he offered to pay you a pretty penny and offered to finally build you, your own suit you couldn’t pass up that opportunity. He explained to the school who you were, and how you wouldn’t be going by your last name as he didn’t want someone to be able to threaten you if they knew who your father was. Then he requested that Peter be the one to show you around which they quickly agreed to, because let’s face it who turns down Tony Stark?

Leaving you to your own devices to wait for Peter you started to feel bad that he wouldn’t know why you were really there, or who you really were. That all melted away when you saw a cute boy with brown curly hair and a pleasant smile on his face. “Hi I’m Peter Parker, I assume you are (Y/F/N) (Y/L/N)? I’m supposed to be showing you around today if that’s okay, it looks like we have the same schedule.”He said introducing himself holding his hand out for you to shake.

“That’s right, and that would be great Peter thanks!”You said as cheerfully as you could muster on a Monday morning taking his hand.

Bucky:

Tony had called you in to help someone as you had helped him many times before with his PTSD and other issues. When you were on the phone he didn’t sound exactly happy to be helping this person but said it was a personal favor for Steve or as the rest of the world knew him: Captain America. Walking into the building you knew it was serious when you were met with not only Tony but Steve and Sam as well. “Hello boys, to what do I owe the pleasure of being invited to Stark tower?”You ask trying to lighten the mood a little catching on that this was a source of tension so it could only be one person… The Winter Soldier.

“You see we need someone that Bucky can talk to that isn’t an Avenger, he is getting better in some ways and falling back in others. Every night he seems to have nightmares about the things he did for HYDRA and it wasn’t him.”Steve explained getting a scoff from Tony but when Steve glared at him he stuck his hands in the air defensively. Leading the way through the hallways you felt like there was pit in the depths of your stomach, it wasn’t fear...it was curiosity? Obviously you knew who he was and what he had done, specifically to Tony no less. However it was you that made him see the other side of things and brought them together.

Pushing you into a room Tony shut and locked the door behind you. “Well that was a little excessive Anthony.”You said receiving a scoff that almost sounded like a laugh from the other side of the room where Bucky sat. “Sorry he does seem to have a flair for the dramatic after all.”You apologized sitting in the chair across from him earning another scoff in your direction. “Alright let’s get down to business. I’m Dr. (Y/F/N) (Y/L/N), I’m a psychologist, I’m not going to lie about why I am here. Your friends are worried, and I am here to help provided that you want me to.”You explain holding your hand out for him to shake.

“James Barnes, but everyone calls me Bucky.”He said shaking your hand apprehensively.

Sam:

Working as a volunteer for the VA hospital was one of your more rewarding efforts that you had taken on. Ever since your brother was killed in action it was the thing that helped put you back together in the end. Currently you were going around asking people if they needed anything to drink or eat, pushing a snack cart along. Not paying attention you accidentally rammed someone with it rather harshly enough to send the handle back into your stomach. “Oh my goodness I’m so sorry!”You cried out rushing over to help the man off the floor. As he became eye level you couldn’t help but notice how attractive he was, and that didn’t help the blush go away any faster. “I wasn’t paying attention to what I was doing, are you alright?”You asked checking him for injuries.

“I’m okay, it’s really no big deal. It’s not everyday that I run into someone like you.”Sam said looking you up and down curiously. “I’m Sam, and it’s nice to see another dedicated volunteer, so much so that you didn’t see me coming.”He joked winking at you.

“I’m (Y/N), and this place really does miracles if you let it, not just for the Veteran’s it serves but for their families too.”You explained with a smile knowing that you could very easily become good friends with Sam.

Natasha:

How you got where you were today, you didn’t know but it wasn’t a happy place to be sure. It was a small dilapidated cell with a rotting mattress on the floor and a chamber pot in the corner. The only thing on the walls were the small tally mark scratches you had started to make just to keep track of the days, not that it mattered. It’s just where they kept you when they weren’t taking your blood, or injecting you with God knows what. Sure you had the power to manipulate the elements but you refused to hurt anyone, and that rubbed them the wrong way. More than once it led to them trying to torture you into using them, and last time it almost worked.

It was only a matter of time before they cracked you, and it was coming sooner rather than later. Hearing the door slam open you jumped and slid to the corner of the cell, even though if they truly wanted to get to you it would do no good. The cell opened and you closed your eyes hoping that the fear you were experiencing didn’t set off your powers. Instead you heard a woman’s voice which was new to you, usually it had been all males. “Are you okay?”The voice called again.

“Please don’t hurt me.”You said softly barely above a whisper, having not used your voice in what felt like years.

“I promise I’m here to help you, my name is Natasha. Let’s get out of here, what do you say to that?”She asked making you smile taking her hand.

“I think my name is (Y/N).”You said trying to recall what your parents had called you as a child for the first time in a long time you felt...safe.

Wanda:

Being the manager for The Avenger’s was fun to say the least, but they did not make it easy by any stretch of the word. Tony called you and the others in because he and Fury were going to introduce the two newest additions to the initiative. Great two more people to chase after to make sure they weren’t doing something they weren’t supposed to do. A PR nightmare in the waiting is what you kept thinking before you walked into the room seeing the most beautiful woman you thought you had ever seen. Clearing your throat you put on a smile and tried not to think about her knowing full well she could read minds after reading her file.

“Ah right on time as always (Y/N)”Tony said with a smile motioning for you to come closer. “This is our manager, so please take it as easy on her as possible. We all make her job so much worse than it has to be I’m afraid.”He said introducing you with a laugh.

“I’m Wanda, and this is my brother Pietro.”The woman said introducing them with a timid smile, one just like it mimicked on her brothers face.

“It’s nice to meet you both, don’t worry I’m sure we will be good friends. I am just here to try and keep you guys out of trouble, or deal with it if you can’t.”You said letting out a giggle, seeing them both physically relax a little seeing that you weren’t a threat of any kind. “It’s definitely understandable to be a little tense after all you have been through, please if you need anything let me know.”You said sincerely.

[portraitoftheoddity]

Ik this is out of the blue, but if you wanna talk about Loki I have a question. I'm having trouble writing him because he seems to always do things that are contrary to what he wants. He wants Thor to love him so he... Constantly betrays Thor and tries to kill him. It's difficult to get potential friends/love interests past the barbed wire fence he's put around himself. I was wondering what you think of that? Because I just really like hearing you talk about Loki. If you want.

*cracks knuckles* Awwwww, yesssss, here is my jam.

(I’ll be focusing on MCU!Loki here as comics!Loki hasn’t been stabbing Thor all that much lately so I’m guessing he’s not the subject of this ask.)

You’ve already touched on a really core component of Loki’s character, anon, which is that he is a great big mess of Contradictions with a capital C. He wants to be loved. He wants to be feared. He wants to destroy and he wants to be a savior. He wants the throne, and he just wants to be an equal. His methods and actions often seem at odds with his stated desires and goals. And for all that he’s depicted as the ‘god of chaos’ because of the results of his villainy, you could just as easily make an argument for the chaos being internal.

Frigga, who probably knows Loki best of anyone, makes a very poignant observation when she notes that Loki is “always so perceptive about everyone but [himself].” And I think this gets at the core of Loki’s character in a lot of ways – After having his world fall apart from under him in the first Thor movie, Loki has no idea who he is, what his role is, or what he wants. And in that state of conflict, he’s prone to undermining himself at every turn. He ‘wants’ to take over the Earth, but then forms a strategy for the invasion that’s easily thwarted. He ‘wants’ to be loved by his family, but constantly pushes them away. Possibly because he’s so angry and bitter that spite motivates him more than his own best interests. Possibly because he has a lot of self loathing (“I’m the monster parents tell their children about at night”) and subconsciously punishes himself. And possibly because he’s terrified of successfully getting what he thinks he wants and still being unhappy – which… given his plan in Thor did successfully get Thor out of the way and Loki on the throne and still wound up being one of the worst weeks in his life, is a rather understandable fear. He also seems to be acting out of fear anytime someone gets too close and is in a position to help him, as Loki subsequently turns on them almost defensively, like he’s trying to pre-empt any betrayal they might inflict on him by inflicting it on them first (See: “Sentiment.” / “You’re not.” / “Easier to let it burn.”)

A notable constant in Loki’s characterization is that he craves attention. So much of his bitterness comes from being constantly eclipsed by Thor his whole life, and feeling unseen (“I remember a shadow”). In Avengers, Tony recognizes that Loki is “a full-tilt diva.” At his trial in The Dark World, Loki is all about putting on a show of snark and bravado, because even negative attention is still attention – and while Odin gives him the satisfaction of yelling at him, his sentencing is a cruel outcome for Loki, since he’s imprisoned and left to be forgotten; something far worse, to him, than the drama of a public execution. We see this love of attention even more in Ragnarok, where he’s obviously indulging in making statues and plays commemorating himself, and then working his way into the Grandmaster’s inner circle. Whether he’s loved or hated, Loki is desperate not to be ignored.  

And I think that need for attention plays into a lot of his antagonism of Thor. He resents Thor for monopolizing what feels to Loki like a finite amount of love and attention in the universe. But he loves Thor all the same, as his brother and as a fixture in Loki’s life. And if he betrays Thor over and over and hurts him and gets Thor to hate him – well, it’s not as good as love, but love is almost too good to hope for and feels too fragile and ephemeral to someone with Loki’s insecurities. If he can’t count on Thor’s love, he’ll bet on his hate, because either is better than indifference. (Which is ultimately why Thor’s show of indifference toward Loki’s betrayals in Ragnarok is so damn effective – Thor not caring one way or the other is the worst outcome for Loki, and something that drives him to make a change after his plan obviously backfired.)

Another notable aspect of Loki is the degree to which he adheres to narrative roles. In the first Thor, Loki tries to be the hero – the one who kills the monsters and saves Asgard by ending the war with the frost giants, once and for all. This backfires horribly and he’s told that no, he did wrong; he realizes he’s the villain of his story, and then embraces the villainy – because if he’s gonna be the bad guy, then he’s gonna go all out when it comes to filling that role. If he’s the monster, then he’ll be monstrous. So the Loki we see in Avengers has decided that fuck it, if everyone is going to expect the worst of him, then he will be The Worst™, and be it with style. This creates something of a reinforced feedback loop, where Loki acts like a villain, people expect villainy of him, and Loki plays to their expectations.

He gets to break out of that loop in some ways early in Ragnarok, when he’s ‘dead��� and able to change the narrative around himself. As “Odin,” he reshapes his [Loki’s] story into that of a hero, and not a villain. Everyone expects him to be Odin, not Loki, so with no expectations of villainy on him, he behaves…. Well, a bit selfishly, totally hedonistically, and a little negligently, but not particularly villainously or maliciously. He slides back into that villain role for a while on Sakaar (he gets almost performatively villainous when Bruce shows up – I think, again, playing to the expectations of his audience), but then Thor challenges him to do better, to be different, to break out of that role.

Interestingly enough, Loki still adheres to a narrative role at the end, but it’s the one he actually wanted from the start, which is that of ‘Asgard’s Savior’ – the role he wanted when he tricked Laufey, the role he gave himself in his plays, and the way he’s actually wanted to be seen all along. Loki may not want to be a hero for selfless, altruistic reasons – but he does love Asgard, however mixed his feelings are about it, and is willing to risk his life for it. And while he revels at times in playing the villain, performative villainy is more of a consolation prize he gives himself for not being able to enjoy the adulation of heroism. 

Getting back to the idea of Loki not knowing what the hell he wants – ultimately, I think Loki is at his best at the end of Ragnarok because Thor challenges him directly to actually figure out what he wants and who he wants to be. Plus, Loki’s had time to calm down and heal a bit from his earlier traumas, so the betrayal and villainy he exhibits at that point is less of him lashing out in pain and fear, and more just… habit. Breaking that habit becomes a choice he’s given.  

(Side Note: If you want to read some amazing meta-textual exploration of narrative roles vis-a-vis comics!Loki, Loki: Agent of Asgard is an incredible series and well worth checking out.)

So, when it comes to writing Loki – I think a lot of your characterization is going to be dependent on which point of Loki’s story you’re setting your fic in. Thor-era Loki who is having an identity crisis and lashing out near-mindlessly, frightened and angry and desperate to be the hero? Avengers-era Loki, who has decided he’s going to embrace being a monster and wear his monstrosity like armor before anyone can use it against him? Dark World-era Loki, who is bitter and desperate not to be forgotten forever in the bowels of Asgard’s dungeons? Or Ragnarok Loki, who has realized he doesn’t have to be universally reviled and has the ability to change his own story, if he can get the hell out of his own damn way for five minutes?  He goes through a lot of changes, and a lot of different traumas that affect him differently. So considering your setting is important.

Another thing to think about is what does your Loki want, and what does Loki think he wants? A great narrative arc can involve getting Loki to actually realize what his success means, and whether or not he’d find any joy in it (“satisfaction is not in my nature”) – and what, on the other hand, might actually make him happy.

Regarding Loki’s relationships with other characters – you’re right that it’s tricky, what with the walls Loki puts up, and how prickly he can be. Loki’s response to having his trust shattered in Thor was to pretty much quit trusting anybody, so you’ll have to think about how that other character earns his trust. I’ve personally enjoyed playing with the idea of another character rehabilitating Loki by expecting good of him, and leveraging Loki’s tendency to play to expectations in that way. Also, while Loki acts the way people expect him to, he also forms a lot of expectations of others, so keeping him on his toes by letting the characters around him act in ways he doesn’t predict can be a way to get under that armor. Extremes of situation such as dire peril and injury are, of course, other popular tropes for putting a walled-off character in a vulnerable position where their usual defenses are not in play. And when it comes to Loki’s satisfaction (or lack thereof) – Ragnarok Loki, when given the opportunity to play the hero instead of the villain, and the opportunity to be a part of a team instead of going it alone, ultimately seizes that opportunity. I think that speaks to the desire he has, deep down, to be loved and accepted and admired over hated and feared and lonely, which another character in your fic could tap into, with enough patience and persistence. 

Loki’s a complicated mess of a character, whose identity and motivations can be difficult to grasp, largely because his own grasp of them is so tenuous and changeable. But it also makes him a really fascinating and compelling character, with a lot of layers to explore. There’s a lot of ways to interpret him – mine is just one of many interpretations, and certainly not gospel! – and I encourage you to have fun with exploring his psychology and characterization in all its messy glory, in whatever way makes most sense to you.

[undertheinfluencerd]

The Boys: Hughie’s 9 Best Quotes | ScreenRant

Hughie is definitely the odd man out when he is first recruited by Billy Butcher to go after Vought International and The Seven in The Boys. However, Hughie has proven to be one of the most capable members of the vigilante group. His usefulness stems from the fact that he is mostly brains while the rest of the members are all muscle.

RELATED: The 10 Strangest Friendships In The Boys Comics

Hughie Campbell doesn’t just demonstrate his intelligence by his actions but also by the way he chooses his words. While the comic version of the character speaks in a rather basic manner, the Amazon Prime version prefers to color his sentences, resulting in a fun, fan-favorite character.

9 “As A Rule, I Don’t Usually Go Out After A Gory Massacre.”

Some fans have nicknamed him “Bully” Butcher and he earns that nickname by causing turmoil with one of the best couples in The Boys. He orders Hughie to go on a date with his girlfriend Starlight and hack her phone. Given how many people have just died, Hughie doesn’t think it’s a good idea.

Once again, Hughie shows how uncomfortable he is with being a member of The Boys. If he had a choice, he’d be living a different life. But he’s in too deep now. The quote also highlights the vast difference between Butcher and Hughie’s characters. Having lived a life of chaos, Butcher has no problem using people for his own agenda. Hughie is different and there’s no way he is going to hack his crush’s phone.

8 “He Is Too Much Of An A**hole To Die.”

When Butcher disappears for a couple of weeks, Frenchie speculates that maybe he is dead. Hughie doesn’t think so, stating that Butcher is despicable but capable of survival.

Hughie is right about Butcher since he shows up at the end of the episode like nothing happened. And in keeping up with his arrogance, he refuses to explain everything in detail. It’s one of the many reasons why The Boys fans hate Billy Butcher. He’s an effective leader but his personality is far from admirable.

7 “I Managed To Go My Whole Life Without Seeing Someone Die Horribly, And Now I’m Up To About A Half Dozen.”

Hughie has the biggest conscience out of all members of The Boys and late in the first season, he suggests that they should slow down on their violent ways.

RELATED: Ranking The Costumes Worn By The Seven In The Boys, From Lamest To Coolest

This quote is a reminder of just how much Hughie’s life has changed for the worse. Before the start of the show, he was an ordinary citizen looking forward to a bright future with his girlfriend. Now he has to chase after super-powered individuals every single day. Butcher is cut out for this life since he was previously in the military but Hughie feels a bit too overwhelmed.

6 “Saw It On, Uh, Jimmy Fallon.”

Butcher is impressed when Hughie stops Translucent, one of the most villainous members of The Seven, by electrocuting him inside the TV store. He wonders where Hughie learned how to do that, and the response is rather interesting.

Hughie’s comical nature doesn’t come out too often but he’s proven that he can be funny when sometimes. It’s impossible for him to have learned how to electrocute invincible Supes on The Tonight Show Featuring Jimmy Fallon since that’s a late-night talk show. People with a large reservoir of knowledge don’t always remember where they learned everything hence there’s the possibility that Hughie actually forgot where he learned the electrocution technique, so he just threw Jimmy Fallon out there.

5 “Just Coz You Fall On Your A** Doesn’t Mean You Have To Stay There.”

Hughie isn’t the one who comes up with these words. He quotes his late girlfriend who was killed by A-Train. This is what she would say whenever she fell while skating.

RELATED: 10 Super Pieces Of The Boys Fan Art You Have To See

The words apply to almost every member of The Boys at the start of the series. Their lives have all been destabilized by either Supes or Compound V. Instead of wallowing in pity, they have decided to team up and do something about it. The quote is not only useful in the context of the series but is also inspirational to any person watching.

4 “You Look Like You’re Starring In The Porn Version Of The Matrix.”

The first time he tries to recruit Hughie into The Boys, Butcher lies that he is a fed. Hughie doesn’t believe him, arguing that he doesn’t look like an agent. What Hughie thinks Butcher looks like is even funnier.

Butcher’s shades are what make Hughie compare him to some of the best characters from The Matrix since almost everyone in the critically acclaimed movie had a pair. The porn reference fits well with the show since neither it nor its source material has ever shied away from sexual themes.

3 “I Could Be Your Tech Guy. Like, I Could Be In The Van Like, ‘He’s Down The Hall To The Left.'”

The first time he feels the thrill of hunting down superpowered baddies, Hughie feels that he should continue. Unfortunately for him, Butcher wants him to take a back seat because he feels he isn’t tough enough. Hughie isn’t willing to do that so he suggests being like the tech guys who stay inside vans in action movies as they monitor proceedings and advise field agents.

Hughie’s description of how these characters act is entirely accurate. The application of the same techie-guiding-hero concept wouldn’t work here since A-Train and Homelander would have disappeared by the time Butcher got down the hall to the left. Nevertheless, the words still come off as totally hilarious, making viewers wish Hughie would make jokes more often.

2 “That’s A… Nickname?”

When Butcher introduces Hughie to Mother’s Milk, Hughie has a hard time believing that is actually his real name. Even after Mother’s Milk insisting that his mother did indeed give him that name, Hughie remains doubtful.

RELATED: 10 Ways The Seven Are Different From The Avengers

Hughie is right to be baffled since it’s rare to meet someone with such an unconventional legal name. Mother’s Milk’s mother must have had a very interesting sense of humor. Sadly, not much information is given about her. Instead, details are given about Mother’s Milk’s father who worked hard to expos Vought but got killed before he could achieve anything.

1 “I Don’t Think It’s Morgan Freeman Up There Or Anything But It All Can’t Be Random Chaos.”

Butcher asks Hughie an important question when the two attend the Believe Expo to follow up on a Supe lead. He asks him if he believes in God, to which Hughie responds states that Morgan Freeman (who has portrayed God in a couple of movies) is definitely not up there but there is a force controlling everything.

With the remarks, Hughie sounds more of an agnostic individual than an atheist. Discussions about deities often end with an agree-to-disagree conclusion. Some viewers definitely wouldn’t agree with Hughie but some will. The Morgan Freeman reference is also a clever one, serving as an aide-memoire of the large pop culture knowledge stored in Hughie’s mind.

NEXT: 5 Ways Billy Is The Best Hero In The Boys (& 5 Why It’s Hughie)

The post The Boys: Hughie’s 9 Best Quotes | ScreenRant appeared first on undertheinfluencerd.net.

[c-is-for-circinate]

I feel like I’ve seen two or three TAZ roleswap fics on AO3 now where the boys switch places with/are fully replaced by Julia, Hekuba, and Lup.  Which is cool!  I love me a good roleswap, yay all-girl trio, etc.  But they all seem to involve a complete roleswap, backstory and all, and I can’t help feeling like there’s a more interesting story to tell...

(so many spoilers under this tag and I know people on my dash haven’t finished listening so BE WARNED)

For starters:  Everybody keeps their backstories.  The boys were still on the Starblaster, Lucretia is still the Director, and sadly, Lup is still in the umbrella.  So she can’t be the third party member.  Ren, however, is entirely available.

Getting out of the Underdark was one of the hardest things Ren ever did in her life.  People don’t leave there.  You just live there in the gloom forever.  But Taako came in, with his wagon and his show and his glitz and his quiche Lorraine, and Taako left again, and Ren...followed.  She just followed the elven wizard-chef.  No idea where to go up in the world above, no idea what to do with herself, she just took to the road and followed Sizzle It Up With Taako halfway across the continent as Faerun’s first cooking show groupie.  Because she could.  Because she had to follow something.  Because she believed in food, and magic that was used to make things shiny and spectacular and fun, not the magic of the Underdark that was all necrotic and sinister, threatening and cruel. Taako loved having a groupie.  It puffed up his ego like nothing doing.  He never even made it to Glamour Springs--Sazed had his fill and poisoned the cream for the pasta carbonara three stops earlier, and Taako tasted it right up there on stage.  Keeled over dead in front of twenty-five townspeople and Ren, right there in the front row. Something inside of Ren cracked, after that.  Something like hope.  It happens, when heroes fall.  She wasn’t going back to the Underdark, not ever, but she didn’t need to follow around anyone who was just as fallible as her.  She’d learned some magic, following the show.  She could cook.  She’d be fine on her own.

Julia co-started a full on revolution at age 24.  Oh, sure, Magnus did the figure-heading, the bravery, the rushing in, the inspiring, but she was important.  She did the caution.  The careful thinking.  She mattered. She was so cautious that two years later, at the end of the fight, with Governor Kalen there on the ground in front of them, and Magnus with one hand on his axe ready to swing, Julia reached out and laid a hand on his arm to stop him.  Deposing tyrants was one thing, but cutting their heads off would probably make other local leaders a little tetchy.  Killing mercenaries in a fair fight was one thing, but cold-blooded execution?  She didn’t want to see what it would do to Magnus. So they let Kalen go, and two months after that she got to see what an assassin’s blade could do to Magnus when he stepped in front of her in that gazebo he built with his own two hands on their wedding day.  And that was the end of that. She was already on the road when she got word that Ravensroost had fallen.  There was nothing to go back for, now, but she hadn’t planned on going back in the first place.  Caution was useless in this world.  Caution got people killed.  It was boldness that won them the revolution, and caution that lost it.  She could be bold.  She could fight.

Hekuba came from a world of order and orders.  Make these deals, harvest these pearls.  Honor this bargain.  Marry well, have a child, run your household with an iron fist, keep everything running, keep it in order.  Mourn your husband, but not too long.  Marry this distant third cousin of a valued business associate to cement that contract.  Always, always value the contract. Merle never did well with order.  Or with orders, for that matter.  She’d be standing there in the kitchen, a squalling Mookie on one shoulder and Mavis hiding behind her apron, trying to deal with whatever disaster the world had seen fit to send this day, and rather than pitching in to help clean up, he’d add three more dirty dishes to the towering pile in the sink and wander off to watch the ocean.  It was a relief when he left.  One less agent of chaos in her regimented life. The hurricane that blew through a month later was no blessing, or the crash in the pearl market six months after that, or the bandits, or the flu that swept through town... The world is a chaotic place.  It’s too much to face alone.  Might as well try to stand on the shore of the ocean and hold back the tides.  Hekuba had a choice: double down on the sinking ship of her pearl farm, or go find a new plan.  Leave the kids with one of her many, many cousins--make a contract for their care, because every dwarf, or any dwarf that isn’t Merle Highchurch, will always honor a contract--and go rake some profit out of the world’s chaos for herself. It was too much to face alone, but if Hekuba had learned anything from years of marriage with Merle, it was that calling a god to your side didn’t require reverence.  It was just another kind of bargain.  If you knew the gods existed, and Morthammer Dwin of the wanderers surely existed, you could strike a deal with them like anyone else.  And Hekuba could always keep a contract.

They meet up in a bar when a gnome named Craig nails a list to the wall.  The only hand involved in manipulating them all into one place is Istus’s.  She misses her champions, but these three will do.

They almost fall to the gauntlet.  They are immune to nothing, have no resistance to the thrall.  They are three low-level adventurers who are so so weak still and have never been stronger than they are now.  Ren is reaching towards it when the lich appears, billowing red smoke and a voice like thunder that says, “NO.”

This is what Barry knows, in the mere minutes after his body is vaporized and his soul rises free yet again, with all his memories still swirling in confusion: 

He has seen the effects of Lup’s gauntlet enough times to recognize it when it kills him.

Gundren Rockseeker was a good man a week ago.

The human woman with the wedding ring introduced herself as ‘Burnsides’ in that pub, in passing, and that is a name that matters.

They were kind to him, these three ladies.  When he was injured and mortal and confused, they were kind.

He is not letting Lup’s gauntlet destroy another town.  Not again.

The lich resists all Ren’s spells and Hekuba’s pitiful level-one blessings.  No one can get near the gauntlet.  He says to Killian, in his distorted voice of echoes and death, “If your Director wants it, she can come and claim it herself.”  Killian doesn’t ask how the lich knows the Director is a woman, and Hekuba, Julia, and Ren don’t ask who he asked for with the crackles and static of his demand.  They retreat to the moon base together, all four of them, leaving the red-robed lich alone in the circle of perfectly smooth obsidian glass.

Madame Director interrogates them all on their family ties before she allows them to take the test to join the Bureau, Julia first and then the rest of them.  She doesn’t blink or flinch at any of it, not when Julia bites out the story of her dead husband and father, not when Hekuba talks about her children, and she doesn’t consider any of it a deal-breaker, so that’s fine, then, all things considered.  They’ve got a new job.  It seems to pay pretty well.

Lucretia sits on a ridge just on the edge of what used to be Phandolin, Barry floating next to her and not a single bodyguard anywhere around, hunched over the staff and gauntlet on her lap, and cries, and cries. “I killed them, Barry,” she says.  “And you, look at you.  I did this to them and they died.” “We could leave,” Barry says dully.  “Just get in the Starblaster and go.  I don’t know if they’d ever forgive you, but...” They’d be alive again.  They’d all be together again.  If they remembered anything at all. “Not without the Light of Creation,” says Lucretia.  “They loved this world.  I’m not letting the Hunger get it.  No matter what.” Barry says, “You can’t do it without my help.”

(Lucretia lies awake at night and wonders: is it better to leave this plane and start all over again, let the Hunger descend just long enough to escape, abandon the world to that kind of destruction before they can lure the Hunger away but save her family, her friends?  Or should she make her final stand here, close off this plane like they should have done to begin with, doom Taako and Magnus forever? Will they let her make her final stand if they leave?  Will she doom more people by going? Can she face them again? She doesn’t sleep, and she doesn’t know.)

[slow-smiles]

Dark Swan Rising by slow-smiles

III: Small Things

Under Hades’ guidance, Emma’s actions as the Dark Swan escalate, and Regina and Robin are shaken by their predicament with Zelena. Henry finds himself dragged into a drama far more complex than a black and white game of heroes and villains while Belle and Killian search for a breakthrough in light of new revelations. The Knights of the Round Table are keeping secrets as the tension in Storybrooke draws toward an inevitable explosion.

A (somewhat) rewrite of 5A in four parts.

Part I / II / III

Also on AO3.

“It’s like a sleeping curse, in a way. They’ll be locked into the vision you’re giving them, no way to escape or wake up. Well, True Love’s kiss, of course, but since they’ll both be under at the same time, there’s no risk of that happening.

“You’re lucky your parents share a heart,” Hades continues, “considering how tricky some of the ingredients will be to obtain. You’ll only need to make one spell to affect them both,” Hades says.

“What kind of ingredients?”

“For one thing, you’ll need the crushed dust of an untainted heart. I think you know where we can get one.”

Emma breathes out, a fierce smile cutting across her face. “Rumplestiltskin.”

“He’s unconscious in his shop,” Emma says. “No one will protect him. I don’t think even Belle has any sympathy left in her. He’s done too much for that.”

She turns to go, but halts when Hades suddenly appears directly in her path. “Not so fast, Savior. You can’t just kill him,” he says.

She feels her rage bubble up inside of her as she approaches him and hisses, “I will just kill him. Do you have any idea what he’s done to the people I love? He deserves every bit of the pathetic death that’s coming for him.”

Hades is unruffled. “I’m not discouraging you from ending his long and bloody life. I’d personally love to see the man blundering his way through the Underworld, given how many of its residents he personally put there. No, there’s simply a small hitch that comes along with the untainted heart.”

“And that is?”

“The exact words in the spell are ‘an untainted heart willingly given.’ Rumplestiltsken needs to give you his heart of his own free will, or else your spell goes nowhere. And unless there’s a baby somewhere in Storybrooke whose untainted heart you’d be willing to sacrifice, the old Dark One is your only choice.”

Emma’s rage is replaced by the feeling of deep illness and she steps back as though she’s been slapped. “A baby?” she chokes.

Hades answers blithely, “Children are born already willing to give their hearts. How their heart grows depends on who they happen to give it to.” He shrugs, nonchalant. “Quite a tragedy in some cases, but such is life. So unless you’d like to make a sweep through Storybrooke’s maternity ward, I��d start thinking of ways to get Rumplestiltsken to give you his heart.”

“Belle,” she says immediately. “He’ll give it up for Belle.”

Hades raises a brow. “And how do you plan on orchestrating this grand exchange?”

Emma feels her light magic stirring, the weaker version of you, Emma Swan, and feels like she should be regretting what she’s about to say. She should be feeling a sympathetic response, that frisson of moral disquiet running through her heart.

You are no longer nothing, Emma Swan, we made sure of that. The whisper of the darkness once felt so out of place, an intrusion in her mind. Now it’s--

It’s a part of herself she didn’t know was missing.

“I’ll find Belle. Take her quietly so no one comes looking for her. We find a way to wake Gold. He’ll exchange his life for hers.” It’s easy. It’s so easy, and Emma wants to laugh because she’d never even opened her eyes before this. There’s always been a clear path to what she wants, she just never had the strength to take it.

Hades looks pleased. “Concise, neat, with that lovely Dark One twist. I think you’re getting a hang of this, Emma.”

She can’t help but smile.

Belle veritably bursts into the library, startling Hook and Henry out of their attempts to continue researching.

Henry’s mom and his grandparents are orchestrating repair efforts to fix the damage done to the city by Zelena and her minions, while Robin is coordinating the Merry Men and the Camelot knights in search and rescue efforts.

The hunt for Emma is temporarily postponed while they recover.

Henry’s more than a bit sour on that. He knows Hook feels similarly, but it seems the pirate has focused his frustrated energies into researching as quickly and effectively as possible. Henry wishes that he could do the same, but all he feels is worry and angry impatience deep in his gut. Hopefully whatever Belle has will make him feel like they are being productive.

“I have something,” is all she says at first, stalking over to their table, dubbed ‘Command Central,’ with singular purpose.

“What is it?” Henry and Hook ask in unison, abandoning their current pursuits in favor of listening to Belle.

Command Central is organized chaos with sections of books and papers separated by realm of origin, and subsections dedicated to fiction, non-fiction, and unknown. Anyone who doesn’t know Hook’s and Belle’s system would just see a mess, Henry supposes.

Belle starts sorting through the pile dedicated to fiction from Camelot. “Do we…” she mutters something to herself. She looks at Killian. “The Epic Histories of Merlin. I know I saw it somewhere--”

Hook immediately reaches for the Misthaven pile and slides one of the older books from underneath. “The author was from Misthaven,” he reminds gently.

“Right,” Belle nods, and takes the book from him. She mutters something else as she begins to flip.

“Perhaps speaking so that we can hear you would help, love,” Killian quips.

“Oh,” she looks up. “Yeah, sorry. It’s just that this,” she lays her finger down on a page, “is the only story that we’ve found that mentions the Dark One in relation to Excalibur.”

Henry leans over to look at the page Belle is referencing. The War of Humans and Hades. “Hades?” Henry asks.

“Excalibur?” Hook asks.

Belle says, “I’m not sure about Hades, but Excalibur is the important part. Ruby inferred that there’s a connection between the Dark One and Excalibur.”

Henry’s brow furrows. “‘Inferred?’”

Belle sighs. “It seems like the Knights of the Round Table, or the Council of Merlin, aren’t very generous with what information they share.”

Hook scoffs. “Bad form to ask for trust but offer none in return.”

“I don’t disagree with you,” Belle says, “but if Ruby is with them, then I don’t think we should distrust them either.” Hook bristles a little. “Look, they helped us when Zelena attacked. You wouldn’t risk life and limb for a group of people you don’t know unless you had good in you.”

Henry interrupts before Hook can voice more dissent, “We can talk about whether to trust them or not later. What does it say in the story?”

Belle flips a couple of pages, “There’s a bit on the Underworld and Hades… the build up to this war… um… here it is:

“‘To save the realms and the cause of the human race, the great wizard Merlin wove the darkness wielded by the god of the Underworld into a curse. He planned to destroy it and restore the balance with the sword of power, Excalibur. Unfortunately, the Godkiller agent of Hades shattered the sword in two, changing its magic and destroying the great wizard’s plans.

“‘With the sword broken and it’s power fractured, a brave soul was forced to step forward and take the curse, acting as a vessel for the Darkness which the two pieces of Excalibur would contain.’”

“I think I heard about this,” Hook says suddenly. “Well, not this exactly, but in my quest to destroy the Dark One, I’d heard whispers of another dagger, one that could kill the Dark One and not pass on the curse. I’d always assumed it was just a story.”

Belle nods. “Listen: ‘If the sword, broken, it’s forger long dead, could be rejoined, it could end the Dark One for all of time.’”

Hook growls, “Sounds an awful lot like killing to me.”

Belle gives him a look. “It could mean that, but you know how magic has back doors.”

Henry says, “Okay, whatever it does, wouldn’t it be helpful to figure out where Excalibur was?”

“Oh!” Belle exclaims. “That’s the other thing. Emrys has it.”

“Emrys,” Henry says. “The wizard with Ruby?”

Nodding, she pushes the book over to Henry. “I’m thinking… the other ‘dagger’ that you heard about, Hook, is Excalibur.”

Killian drags a hand over his chin in contemplation. “If the sword Emrys carries is broken, we would never know. He didn’t take it out once during the fighting.”

“If they have a way to stop Emma and end the Dark One curse,” Belle wonders, “then why wouldn’t they just tell us?”

Hook scoffs again. “They likely know we’d object to killing her, I’d imagine.”

Belle looks at him sharply. “Ruby said they’re going to do everything they can to keep it from coming to that.”

“A fancy way of saying, ‘We’re leaving enough room for failure.’”

She gives him another look. He appears only slightly chastened. Henry feels a bit out of place as Belle softens and says, “Look, I understand what you’re feeling better than anyone, but your fatalism isn’t going to help Emma. But you know what will?” She turns, grabs the biggest book that she can find, and plops it down in front of him. “More research.”

They settle into their system, and Henry truly feels like a third wheel now, but at least they have a bit more direction after Ruby’s veiled revelations: find more information on how the Dark One and Excalibur are related. The War of Humans and Hades is unhelpfully vague, as it doesn’t include any new information about the Dark One, Hades’ place in all this, or how to reunite Excalibur. Belle takes the book to scour it for more clues in other stories while Killian starts filing through some of the other books they’ve gathered.

Henry, as usual, is relegated to fetching duty. He feels like he has a good enough grasp on the Dewey Decimal System at this point to be a librarian in the Library of Congress. At least at that job he wouldn’t feel as though Belle and Hook were awkwardly trying to include them in their operation.

Right, and his mom was still missing. With no one looking for her. He thought he’d at least have an ally in Killian for that particular crisis, but it looks like he’s decided to clench his jaw and wait.

“Hey Henry?” Belle’s soft voice breaks him out of his reverie, and when he looks up he has to bite down the urge to scream because she’s holding up a little piece of paper with a call number written on it. “Would you mind getting this book for us?”

He has to swallow down the snarky retort and an eyeroll. “Sure,” he replies flatly, and walks into the shelves.

The book is in a back corner, Hook’s and Belle’s voices dampened by the thick tomes of paper surrounding him. He pulls it off the shelf--the library sticker on the spine is new in contrast to the worn leather cover, and the title is in some language Henry doesn’t know. He tucks it under his arm and takes a step towards the front of the library when there’s a shimmer of magic, a red dome sealing over him, and then:

“Hello.”

Henry nearly jumps straight out of his skin and the book falls to the floor with a slap, and Henry whirls around to see Emrys standing behind him. He breathes in relief, but only just. Hook hadn’t been wrong about Storybrooke’s newcomers--sometimes people aren’t as trustworthy as they seem. His eyes go immediately to the sword at Emrys’ side, the red gem at the base glowing faintly. Excalibur.

“Sorry if I startled you,” Emrys says. Henry’s gaze then darts towards where Hook and Belle appear frozen in place, bent over the table. “No need to worry,” Emrys assures, “I’ve frozen us in a moment of time. We can converse without being heard or missed.”

He looks around them pointedly. “The privacy bubble doesn’t really inspire confidence in your trustworthiness, buddy.”

His shoulders rise and fall in a sigh. “I need you to hear me out, and I’m afraid your companions over there might not be so accommodating. You are important, Henry, more than you can possibly know.”

“Last time I believed someone when they said that, it almost got my whole family killed,” Henry says, remembering Neverland and the heady rush he got when Pan told him that he was the Savior. That he would be the one to save everyone.

“That was before you were the Author,” Emrys replies.

“Wait, how do you know about that?” Henry asks, backing up until he is at the very edge of the bubble.

“Well, my Apprentice was in charge of overseeing all of you. I always know exactly who has the pen.”

It takes an instant for the answer to fall into place for Henry. “You’re Merlin.”

He smiles. “Got it in one. Knew it was a good choice to make you the Author. Creating that quill was no easy task, so it’s good to see it in promising hands.”

Henry’s brow furrows. “Wait, creating... The way my mom explains it makes it sound like magic is energy transference. You know, Newton’s Third Law, can’t be created or destroyed and all that.”

“I’m unaware of this sorcerer you speak of, but he is correct. Magic cannot be created nor destroyed. Unless, of course,” Merlin says, halting Henry’s protest, “you’re you.” Merlin seems to find that amusing and smiles broadly, but Henry doesn’t share his mirth.

“What?”

“I did not create the magic in the pen, merely harnessed the power of creation.”

“I still don’t-- I can create magic?”

Merlin gives a small shrug. “If done carefully.”

“That’s-- but--”

“It’s a lot to take in,” Merlin concedes. “I’m the first human who was given magic and have been alive longer than you can comprehend, and even I still can’t always fully explain its ways.”

Henry’s mind is reeling, a dozen questions coming to mind, but feeling a bit dumb when the first thing that tumbles out of his mouth is, “Is that how you look so young?”

He smiles, if a bit sadly, and gestures to his face. “I have Zeus to thank for this.”

Henry almost laughs. “You’ve got to be kidding me. Next thing you’re going to tell me is that Prometheus and Athena and Jupiter are all real.”

“They were,” Merlin answers, “until all the gods of old were slain because of the savage ambition of one brother who felt he’d been looked down upon.”

He doesn’t need much more than a bare knowledge of Greek mythology and popular culture to know that one. “Hades?”

If Merlin is surprised by Henry’s knowledge, it doesn’t show. “Hades razed the entire realm and joined it with the Underworld.”

“So how did you get your powers if Hades destroyed all the gods?”

Merlin seemed to settle in, and Henry got the sense that he needed to pay close attention to what he was about to say. “Zeus escaped, and managed to find his way to one of the realms of the humans; you know it as the Enchanted Forest.

“Prometheus had risked his godhood many years before to give us fire. Artemis had been secretly blessing hunts for centuries. Many gods over the years had used their power to help us, even though it was forbidden.

“These gods sang many praises of the human capabilities of strength, resilience, and their surprising capacity for goodness. Zeus had once dismissed these praises, but once Olympus was gone…”

“He had to listen,” Henry deduces. Merlin nods. “So… he gives you magic. You… give it to other people? And why did you create the Author?”

Merlin grimaces ever so slightly. “I was not the only one to whom magic was given. And the way magic spread...”

“Let me guess,” Henry asks drily, “It’s a long story?”

Merlin has the decency to look a little sheepish. “I’m afraid there’s much you don’t know, and that I do not have the time to share with you.”

“Well, considering you told me we’re in a suspended time bubble, I’d say this is probably the most time we’re going to get in Storybrooke with Zelena and my mom still out there,” Henry says.

“I cannot hold this spell forever,” Merlin says. “It is similar to the magic that went into creating Pandora’s box,” he explains, “and that was truly an undertaking without compare.”

“Was that you too?” Henry asks.

The dark look crosses Merlin’s face again. “Pandora’s Box was not a creation of mine, no.” He waves a hand. “But we’re getting off track. Henry, as the Author, you hold the key to ending the Dark One curse forever.”

Merlin’s declaration is met with Henry’s sharp intake of breath. “But I--I broke the Author’s quill, I can’t--”

With a simple gesture, Merlin reproduces the quill in his fingers and holds it out to Henry. “Magic, as your sorcerer Newton said, isn’t created nor destroyed, but transferred. Generally back to the person who cast it. Now,” he wiggles the quill in his fingers, “care to take this back? It is rightfully yours, after all.”

Henry takes the quill back, and it feels like coming home, in a way. Like he never should have let it go in the first place. “So what do I need to do to save my mom?”

Merlin looks around at the bubble. “I seem to have wasted quite a good deal of time telling you about my history, so I will have to be brief--”

Henry feels a flash of annoyance. “No, you need to explain everything to me now. My mother is tied to the Dark One curse. She took it on to save all of us! And now we need to save her.”

Merlin gives him a tight smile, and Henry sees him wave a hand across the arc of the bubble. It shimmers once again. Merlin shudders, ever so slightly, but the momentary lapse is gone in a moment. “There is a way to save your mother and destroy the Dark One forever. You know that the curse is tied to the Dark One dagger, yes?” Henry nods. “That is the lost piece of Excalibur,” Merlin says, the intensity of his gaze pinning Henry like a moth to a board. The wizard reaches for his belt, and Henry hears the sharp <i>sling</i> of metal on scabbard.

The intricately crafted sword reeks of ancient power, the designs on the blade reaching from the base to the end, where the sword abruptly ends. Where it is shattered, Henry can see the beginnings of the wave-blade and black-burned etchings characteristic of the Dark One’s dagger.

“This is no ordinary sword. It was forged by Prometheus himself to be powerful enough to hold the darkness. I can’t simply take the dagger and put them together back, not even with my magic.” He resheathes the sword and places a hand on Henry’s shoulder. “The only person who can reforge them is the Author, using the pen to write them together.”

Henry’s brow furrows. “Wait, but that’s--” He looks down at the pen in his hand and back at Merlin. “You’re asking me to change things.”

“Not things, Henry. Just one.”

He steps away from Merlin, shaking the wizard’s hand from his shoulder. “That’s exactly what I’m not supposed to do! The Apprentice told me altering reality will have consequences.”

“It can, if done improperly. Look at the last Author. We’re not trying to create a different reality, but very slightly alter this one. And by doing so, you will save your mother.”

“There has to be another way,” Henry insists.

“Perhaps there is,” Merlin says, “but we don’t have the time to find it. Right now, this is the best solution.”

Henry bristles. “You keep using ‘not having time’ as an excuse, and I don’t get it. I don’t trust you, and I won’t trust you until you find the time to actually explain to me what’s really going on.”

“There’s no time, Henry,” Merlin says slowly, “because the longer I’m here, the more likely it is that the Dark One will discover that fact. We’re acquainted, and it won’t be happy to see me again. And if the Dark One finds out I’m here…” Merlin visibly shivers. “Something much worse won’t be far behind.”

“Something worse?” Henry asks.

“The being I helped lead a war against. The god who is responsible for the creation of the Dark One curse. He’s the reason Zeus granted me eternal youth--so that I could keep him and the Dark One in check.”

Hades, Henry realizes. Hades is responsible for all of this.

Merlin continues, “If Hades comes here…” He shakes his head. “It doesn’t matter now. We must prevent it from happening, and the only way we can do that is by saving your mother.

“Emma Swan is a part of something much larger than you realize. Being the Savior is no small thing,” Merlin says, tone flat and commanding, “This is the only opportunity we will have to destroy this curse without taking a life until another Savior voluntarily takes it on. That has not happened since its inception. We cannot afford to fail, and our success hinges on you.”

“You’re saying… that since she’s the Savior you can destroy the Dark One without killing her?”

Merlin nods. “If we can find a way to pull the curse from her, we can destroy it.”

“What about True Love’s Kiss?” Henry asks.

“Possible, but unlikely. The Dark One curse is a strange beast. Loving is still possible, but hard to keep pure.”

Henry feels a pang deep in his chest, and it’s not pride; not this time.

It’s fear. He doesn’t want to be the one to have to do this. In this moment, he would give anything to go back to before he was the Author.

“I know you and your family have been working non-stop to free Emma,” Merlin continues, reaching down to the floor to pick up the book Henry had dropped. Merlin holds it out to him. “but you are only hitting dead ends. And you’ll continue to hit dead ends until you decide to help me. You’re a brave young man, Henry. I have faith you’ll make the right decision.”

Henry takes the book back, but before he can say anything else, the magical dome deteriorates, and Merlin disappears right along with it. A cold brush of air sweeps past him as he rejoins the normal flow of time. An errant scrap of paper swoops past him, fluttering and settling a few feet in front of him.

“Henry? What was that?” Hook calls, but Henry barely hears him.

His eyes are still locked on the space Merlin had just been occupying. “It was nothing,” he answers, barely remembering why they sent him back here in the first place as he shuffles the book beneath his arm and turns back towards the front of the library.

But if what Merlin told him was true, then this book would hold no answers.

Several hours had passed since they’d reengaged their research efforts on finding Merlin, and Killian’s already thin patience had vacated him around hour two. If yet another suggestion given by his research partners fails to produce the mythical wizard himself in front of them, Killian can’t promise that he won’t snap.

Beneath his annoyance lies an undercurrent of worry. Henry had been strangely reticent for most of those hours. When he did speak, he was curt and a bit rude. Killian and Belle had shared a few looks over these moments, both assuming his attitude was simply the result of teenage maturity and the stress that they were all under, but Killian suspects it might be more than that.

Adding to his worry, Belle had received a call from the fairies watching over Rumplestiltsken just under an hour ago. Something about their services being needed with an individual infected by one of Zelena’s flying minions, and wondered if Belle wanted to come keep an eye on her comatose husband. “I shouldn’t be gone too long,” she had said, but as the clock ticks closer to the hour mark, Killian feels his worry begin to outweigh his annoyance.

The door of the library opens, and Killian looks up eagerly, hoping to see Belle back safe and sound. Instead, he sees Ruby, concern etched on her features.

“Hey, is Belle around here?”

Killian shakes his head. “She was called to her husband’s side so the fairies could visit a victim of Zelena’s spell. I imagine you’d find her there.”

“What? All the victims are out of the hospital. I was just with the fairies. They’re still with Rumplestiltsken and we haven’t seen Belle.”

“But she said--” He meets Henry’s gaze over the table and feels his stomach drop. “That’s not possible,” he says urgently, pulling his phone out of his pocket.

He swiftly dials Belle’s number, trying to keep his hand steady despite the tension creeping up his neck. Each passing second sees fear being etched onto Ruby’s face.

With each tinny ring, his flimsy hope that maybe this is all just an innocent misunderstanding disintigrates. Ruby steps closer. “Anything?”

He swears when he hears Hi, you’ve reached Belle French and slams his phone to the table.

“We’ve got to find her,” Ruby says, her eyes glowing faintly yellow.

Killian can feel his anger and frustration beginning to boil. “We don’t even know where she is. Why would Zelena lure Belle into a trap?”

“Zelena?” Ruby asks.

Henry replies, “Who else would want to take her?”

Ruby laughs harshly. “Emma’s the Dark One! Belle knows more about magic than just about anyone, and we have no idea what is up her sleeve.”

“But if Zelena wanted to hurt Rumple,” Henry says, “the best way to do that is through Belle.”

“She’s not just some bargaining chip!” Ruby shouts. Her eyes flash bright yellow before she closes them, taking a calming breath. “We do not have time to sit here arguing about who took her and why. All we know is that someone lured Belle out and now we can’t find her.” Ruby’s eyes open again, their natural brown once more. “I’m going to look for her. If I can pick up her scent, I can track her down.”

“I’m coming with you,” Henry and Killian say at the same time.

Belle moans as she comes to, her head feeling like it’s filled with cotton. She’s seated, her back pressed against something rough, solid, and cold with her hands lying limply at her sides. A shiver zips up her legs and she curses herself for wearing a skirt. Her eyes flicker open and she tips her head forward, the aftereffects of whatever magical knockout potion took her down quickly slinking away.

She’s in some sort of cave--if she had to guess, she’d say she was in the mines, but mysterious caves seem to pop up all over the place in Storybrooke. There’s some sort of magical barrier blocking the only entrance to the cavern, a spell that she doesn’t recognize. It ripples like water, glimmering iridescent in the near darkness. The only sources of light are two torches high on the walls--Belle wonders if she might be able to reach one.

“Wake him up,” Belle hears, and she whips her head around to see Emma Swan standing against the right side of the cavern.

Next to her, underneath a thick blanket and lying on a stone pedestal, is Belle’s husband.

Her first instinct is to shout. Stop. Don’t hurt him.

She doesn’t act on that instinct. She rises to her feet, unsteady as the effects of the magic wear off, and instead says earnestly, “Emma, whatever you’re doing, it’s not worth darkening your heart. We can help you fix this. We can find a way to save you.”

Emma fixes Belle with a coldly condescending look and for a startlingly selfish moment, Belle is glad it’s Emma holding the curse rather than her husband. She couldn’t handle it if he was the one imprisoning her. Again.

“Everyone seems to want to fix me these days. Tell me, Belle,” Emma says, pacing in front of her leisurely. “Why couldn’t Rumplestiltsken give up this curse? Hm?”

Belle’s breath catches. “A curse isn’t a curse if the afflicted wants it.”

Emma nods sagely. “What would you have done?” she asks. “What would you have done to snag yourself a completely uncursed Rumple? Quite a lot, I imagine, given how much you seemed to love him. Still love him, maybe.”

Belle doesn’t answer, pressing her lips together in a stubborn show.

Emma is not amused. “Regardless of how you now feel about him, I need him, and I need him awake.” She considers. “Would a True Love’s kiss work, do you think? I’m sure his love for you is plenty, but what about yours for him?” Emma shrugs. “I wouldn’t blame you for not loving him anymore. He’s treated you like an object for so long, someone that he can just bring along for his ride no matter how battered and bruised you get from being dragged behind him. But it was never enough,” Emma says, voice going soft, almost understanding. “You were never enough.”

“Stop,” Belle protests weakly.

“No,” Emma replies. “I need him awake, and I need to know if True Love’s kiss can do it. So, dearest Belle, if you still truly love him, call me a liar and wake him up.”

She remembers her marriage vows as though they were said yesterday. Yearns for the simplicity of their short honeymoon, for the blissful early days of their marriage when she was completely unaware of what kind of man her husband really was.

Which isn’t--

That’s not right. She’s always known, she’d just always managed to convince herself that she would be enough.

Something falls into place for Belle in that cave, with a new Dark One staring down at her with quiet menace and the man she thought she’d always wanted with his life in her hands.

A lone tear falls when she finally answers, “I can’t.”

Deep relief swells in her, so strong and potent she nearly gasps, the power of admitting that she doesn’t love him anymore, that she doesn’t forgive him for everything he’s done, everything he’s done to her, nearly knocks the wind out of her.

(She’ll never be lied to again, controlled or manipulated or invaded by him, will finally feel safe in her own skin.)

“I was afraid of that,” Emma says. Before Belle can blink, Emma is in front of her and plunging her hand into Belle’s chest and pulling out her heart. “If your love won’t awaken him,” she says, “perhaps your pain will.”

A pain unlike anything Belle has ever known radiates from her chest and through her body. She groans, strained and heavy, as her knees give out beneath her. She doesn’t even feel the rough stone cutting into her knees, focused as she is on the hot, bitter, deep pain radiating from her chest. Through it, her eyes remain open, fixated on where Rumple still lies dormant. Emma is standing over him, the red of her heart lighting his face with its proximity.

The seconds stretch for hours, as Emma carefully watches Rumple.

He does not move.

Emma growls, nearly crushing Belle’s heart in her frustration. “This should’ve worked,” she whispers. With a shout of rage and a sudden lunge, she jams Belle’s heart back into her chest.

Belle gasps in pain at the roughness, and clasps a hand over her chest protectively as Emma swoops away just as suddenly as she’d drawn close.

Emma is murmuring something under her breath, and Belle can’t quite make it out. All she knows is that the Dark One is angry, and she’s been on the receiving end of a Dark One’s ire enough to last several lifetimes. She scrambles backwards into the wall, the rough stone scratching at her palms as her heart flutters, settling back into her chest in a way that makes her feel short of breath.

She’s not eager to prod the beast any more than she has to, but Belle has had enough of letting the Dark One control her.

“They’ll find us, you know,” she says. “When they realize both Rumple and I are gone, they’ll figure out your plan.”

Emma laughs, sounding unhinged. “No, they’ll just think you’re missing. Him? I made a replica. Perfect projection magic. They won’t even know he’s gone until it’s too late.”

“There’s no such thing as too late,” Belle says. “Even for you.”

Emma laughs again. “Even for me? I don’t need your pity sympathy. I’ve already gotten enough of that to last a lifetime,” she finishes softly, contemplative.

Belle studies Emma in the silence that follows, trying to pick out differences between the Emma she knew and the one in front of her now. She’s still in her Storybrooke clothes, none of the extravagances of an Enchanted Forest Dark One. Her skin doesn’t bare the scaly glimmer that had been Rumplestiltsken’s signature, and her long blonde hair remained unchanged.

Although--

“I’ll be back,” Emma says suddenly. “Try not to get into too much trouble while I’m gone,” she adds, and it’s almost like old Emma when she says it, light, with a hint of a smile.

Before Emma teleports away, Belle could swear she sees a streak of pure white through the pristine blonde.

The Dark One coalesces in a swirl of black and white smoke next to Zelena. Emma’s visit isn’t surprising, but still a bit unexpected.

The Wicked Witch had been pleased to find her farmhouse in the same condition that she’d left it in. A bit of dust here and there, but nothing her magic hadn’t been able to fix. She’d been idly wondering about setting up a nursery when the crackle of powerful magic caused her to turn to the resident Dark One-slash-Savior.

“The Dark Swan,” Zelena says. “To what do I owe this honor? I was under the impression that our deal was fulfilled.”

Emma seems to be only half-listening as she walks slowly around the room. The only outward reflection of the curse she holds is a wide streak of silver running down the left side of her hair, disrupting the golden curls. The silver streak, plus the distractingly powerful and confusing magic signature she’s giving off. Otherwise, she looks much the same as she ever did, sensible boots and jeans paired with a black leather jacket.

The Dark One does not cease her slow perusal of the living room.

“I know this isn’t a social call,” Zelena observes dryly. “What do you want?”

Emma half smiles. “Direct. I’ve always liked that,” she says quietly, almost to herself. “Tell me something,” she says, turning to face Zelena and coming to a standstill by the window. “How are your cravings?”

“What?”

“When I was pregnant with Henry, the only thing I wanted were jelly beans. The prison commissary had a cheap kind that were half way satisfying, but I couldn’t afford them most of the time.”

“What’s that got to do with anything?”

Emma’s smile is thin. “If there’s anyone who can be sympathetic to being pregnant behind bars, it’s me.”

Zelena remembers Regina’s god awful eating restrictions and the way the mute janitor had secretly slipped her the children’s book against her sister’s orders and bristles. She doesn’t let it show, and she uses her magic to conjure a bag of onion rings and sits in an armchair. “Well, I’m not behind bars any longer, thanks you to.”

She takes a bite of one of the fried rings and sighs. Still hot, just the right amount of crispy. Sometimes her magical abilities truly still delight.

Emma cocks her head. “Can I have one?”

“Seriously?”

She shrugs, looking for all the world like she isn’t carrying evil incarnate inside of her. “I like onion rings.”

After a moment, Zelena holds the bag out. Emma steps forward, reaching carefully in and pulls one out. “Thank you,” she says, sounding genuine before she bites in.

Another moment of silence follows, the rustle of greasy paper filling the silence.

“I ask again, what is it that you want?”

“I’d like for us to be allies.”

“Allies?” Zelena says dubiously.

“At some point you’ll need one to protect your baby from Robin and Regina. They won’t just let the kid go without a fight.”

Zelena growls. “They won’t get to my child. I won’t let them.”

Emma scoffs. “Right, the same way you weren’t going to let Regina take your pendant when she beat you the first time?”

“The light magic caught me off guard,” Zelena acknowledges, “but it won’t happen again.” She eats another onion ring, her satisfaction sullied somewhat at the thought of Robin and Regina. Despite her confidence in her abilities, Emma isn’t exactly wrong. Regina has a team of heroes behind her. Zelena has no one. Or, perhaps one. “What exactly does me being allies with you look like?”

Emma just smiles, a secret, dark little smirk that does little to settle Zelena. “When I call, you answer.”

Zelena hates vagaries, unless she’s the one giving them. Dropping her onion rings to the coffee table and crossing her arms over her chest, she says, “I’m not your errand girl.”

Emma looks unconcerned. “You’re whatever I want you to be as long as you’re afraid of something.”

A fire roars up in Zelena. “I killed Neal,” she reminds. “I killed him and I loved every minute of it.”

Zelena expects anger, or forced stoicism concealing hidden menace. What she does not expect is a chuckle, a smile that looks almost genuine. “I should thank you for that.”

“I’m sorry?”

The smile drops off the Dark One’s face. “The kind of adult man who would get a seventeen year old girl pregnant and sent to prison for a crime she didn’t commit isn’t the type of man I ever want around my son. It took me a long time to realize that. Too long,” she finishes quietly.

Zelena pauses, thinking. “Your parents don’t know about this do they?” She laughs. “Oh this is rich; they even named their little whelp after him. Does your son know?”

Emma doesn’t answer but her grimace is visible. Zelena is pleased. The Dark One isn’t the only one with tricks, now.

Zelena raises her eyebrows tauntingly. “How awkward for you.”

The Dark One does not seem amused. “Consider my offer. You’ll want to take me up on it sooner rather than later.”

Zelena chuckles. “I think I see what this is now.”

“This?”

“The difference between you and me, Emma, is that I don’t mind being alone.”

Her expression remains as blank as ever, but Zelena can feel Emma’s darkness stirring and eclipsing the flagging light magic, inner anger and insecurity stoking an already chaotic fire.

Emma looks back at Zelena’s front door. “You’ll want to answer that,” is all she says before she teleports away in a swirl of black and white smoke.

A knock sounds through the house moments later.

BREAK

Regina supposes she could’ve just teleported to her sister’s house, but the drive allows her to clear her head and gather her wits about her. She doesn’t quite know what to expect from this encounter but is hopeful Zelena’s condition will make her less likely to start a physical fight.

As she locks her Mercedes, taking her time in placing the keys in her pocket, she layers on her emotional armor that she wore for years as the Evil Queen, steps up to the door, and knocks.

A few moments past an awkward length of time, the door opens to reveal the Wicked Witch herself, dressed down from when Regina last saw her at the head of an army of flying monkeys.

Despite lack of black dresses and green gloves, Zelena still looks prepared for a battle. She opens the door just enough to lean her head and shoulders out. “Why are you here?” Her tone matches her posture, brittle and untrusting.

Regina sighs, eyes tilted up for a moment. “A lot of reasons,” she answers before shaking her head. “Do you mind if I come in?”

“I do mind, actually,” Zelena answers. “Why should I let you into my home?”

Regina fights back her annoyance. Along with the armor comes the Evil Queen’s sharp tongue, and she knows that won’t help the situation if she falls back into that persona. “Because we need to have a talk where we aren’t actively trying to kill each other.”

Zelena seems to consider slamming the door in Regina’s face for a few moments, but doesn’t move.

Regina tries again, “Despite…. everything, we’re sisters. And even if we weren’t, we’re family now in a way that can’t be undone.” She looks meaningfully at Zelena’s hidden stomach.

Mentioning the child changes Zelena. Where she once looked ready for battle, now she seems prepared for a siege. “This child is mine,” she snaps. “You and your pathetic thief of a lover will never touch them.”

Regina can’t stop the anger that courses through her. “If this is how it’s going to be--” A flick of her fingers sends Zelena stumbling back, the door listing backwards on its hinges. Regina strides into the house and closes the door behind her before Zelena can recover. “Thanks for inviting me in,” she comments dryly before venturing towards the kitchen.

“You bloody fucking bitch,” Zelena snarls, and Regina can feel her sister gathering magic, preparing a strike. Before it can come to fruition, Regina passes into the kitchen and casts a protection spell over the room.

Regina can hear the offensive spell fizzle out on the barrier before she even turns around. “Best protection spell I know that doesn’t include blood magic,” she explains. “You’re not getting me out of this house until I choose to leave.” The spell is completely transparent, but the magical sisters can feel the film of it as though it was an actual barrier between them.

Zelena looks ready to just knock the house down on top of Regina, but slowly her posture straightens, her fingers uncurl. Then she snorts a harsh laugh. “You’re unbelievable.”

Regina summons one of the kitchen chairs and sits down facing the doorway. “Might want to pull up a chair,” she suggests.

Zelena’s mouth is slightly gaped, and Regina supposes it’s since she’s living up to her bloody fucking bitch reputation. Zelena doesn’t complain out loud, but every single bit of body language screams it as she copies Regina’s action, summoning one of her living room chairs and seating herself in it.

“So how is this going to work?” Zelena asks. “You want to hammer out a custody agreement. Will my refusal need to be in writing, or will a series of verbal insults work well enough for you?”

Regina’s temper flares. “I’m doing this for you. Believe me, it would be much, much easier to just cut you out of our lives once the baby is born. But you…” Regina takes a steeling breath. “You’re my sister, and you didn’t do half the things that I did. I’m no more deserving of a redemption than you are. All it took was Henry, and having that unconditional love in my life made me my best self.”

“You don’t want me,” Zelena sneers. “I’m just an inconvenience to you and your happiness with Robin. That’s all I will ever be to you.”

Regina’s lips righten. “Please don’t bring Robin into this right now. I’m trying very hard to forgive you, and the things you have done to him and his family aren’t making that easy for me.”

Zelena is silent--Regina hopes contemplative.

“I led a terribly lonely life as a child,” Regina begins, Zelena’s predictable scoff only spurring her onwards. “Our mother…” Regina struggles to conjure the proper words to describe Cora. She sighs. “Our mother was not a kind woman. She was manipulative and frightening and not afraid to use her magic to make sure I stayed in line. And I know that the family you ended up with wasn’t sunshine and roses either.”

“Is this supposed to make me like you?” Zelena asks. “Share our tragic childhoods and magically we’re the best of friends? Would you like for us to exchange stickers and braid each others’ hair? Please, Regina, you’re not that naive.”

“I’m not trying to fix everything between us. I’m trying to give you a reason to do better.”

“I don’t need my ‘better’ being measured by the heroes’ yardstick. I might have started this to hurt you, but this child is mine.”

Regina tenses. “No, they’re not. They also have a father.”

“Who clearly doesn’t want them.”

“Don’t you dare insinuate that Robin does not love his child,” Regina snaps. She softens, memory and sympathy rolling through her. “You know, we have a word for what you did to Robin in this land. Rape. In the Enchanted Forest, we didn’t have a term for it, it was just… done, and rarely with consequences.” Regina’s own tangled past with Graham makes it difficult for her to maintain her place on her high horse, but she also remembers being the barely-adult bride of a much older man. Doesn’t have to reach back that far to remember Robin’s difficulty sleeping since he came back to Storybrooke. (If there was nothing else that made her regret what she did to Graham, Robin’s suffering would’ve done it.)

Regina continues, “I don’t know if you can properly imagine what you are putting him through. He is so devoted to his children it takes my breath away. But here he is, torn between his love for his child and his hatred of you.” She wonders if she shouldn’t have revealed so much about Robin, but it’s already been said. She supposes that however they heal, it has to start with honesty.

“Robin wants sole custody,” Regina says, “and I’m not inclined to argue with him on that.”

Zelena shoots to her feet. “How could you? You’re a mother! How could you do that to me?”

“Right there is exactly why,” Regina responds, pointing an accusing finger at Zelena. “Because you’re only thinking about yourself. This will hurt you, but I’d rather it be you than your child.”

“Then it seems you’ve already decided. You’re going to take them away from me.”

“That’s why you’re going to do better,” Regina presses, “Not for me, not for yourself, but the child we won’t allow you to see until you drop this wicked charade and just be their mom.”

Zelena riles, tensing like a spring coiled. “This isn’t a charade. I just learned a long time ago that if you want any modicum of respect in this world, simpering and smiling won’t get it for you.”

“I understand that more than you know,” Regina says. “But there’s a difference between commanding respect and being cruel.”

“The way I see it, you can’t have one without the other.”

Regina squeezes her eyes shut, pinching at the bridge of her nose. “Look, what it comes down to is this: I’d rather take them away from you if it meant saving another child from an unfit mother.”

Zelena leans forward against the magical barrier between them. “Don’t you dare make this about you, Regina.”

“I can’t not make this about me, because you have entangled all of us in this goddamn web of yours, and you can’t ask me to divorce what Cora did to me from my decision making.”

“Mother left me,” Zelena hisses. “I would never leave my child.”

“At least you were spared from her.”

Zelena lets out an incredulous breath. “How much do you really know of my family? The family I ended up with after Cora left me to die?”

“Enough,” Regina says, but Zelena is already shaking her head.

“Clearly not if you think our mother leaving me spared me from anything.” She sits back down, as though all the wind has left her sails.

A heavy silence settles between them.

Regina feels a tug at her heart. “I’m sorry.” She may not have Emma’s superpower, but Zelena seems the most sincere she’s ever been.  “Neither one of us…” Regina sighs. “Neither one of us had the upbringing we might have deserved. And it helped put us on a path to doing terrible things. But we don’t have to keep following that same path. Like I said, once I had Henry--”

“It made you your best self,” Zelena finishes.

Regina smiles, just a little bit. “Yeah. But Henry wasn’t the only reason I was able to change. I also found a remarkable group of people who were willing to forgive me, and I think there’s a part of you that wants the same.”

“Maybe.” Zelena looks thoughtful, quiet. Her faces pinches for a moment, and she rubs a hand across her belly.

“Are you okay?”

Zelena nods. “Yeah, I’ve just been feeling a bit odd after I ate those onion rings. It’s nothing.” She continues, “I’m willing to… to try.”

Regina lets out a relieved breath. “That’s all I’m asking for,” she says, a genuine grin blooming across her face.

Zelena grimaces again, a strangled sound coming from her. Her hand goes once again to her stomach.

Regina rises. “Zelena?”

“I don’t underst-” A scream rips out of her throat as she bends forward in her chair.

“Oh god,” Regina takes the magical barrier down between them and crosses the threshold to her ailing sister. “Zelena, talk to me.”

“I don’t know what’s happening,” Zelena cries, leaning back again, and Regina’s jaw drops.

Zelena is only a month into her pregnancy. Judging by the now-apparent curve to her belly, she’s got to be at least seven.

“What the hell,” Regina breathes.

Zelena grinds out another sound of pain. “Something is wrong. I’m--” She falls silent as another wave of pain goes through her.

Regina suddenly knows. A contraction. Zelena is having contractions.

“Hey,” Regina says firmly, “look at me.” She takes Zelena’s hand. “It’s going to be okay. You and the baby are going to be just fine.”

Zelena’s breathing is erratic and her eyes wildly panicked, but she nods at Regina’s sure words.

“I’m taking us to the hospital, all right?” She squeezes Zelena’s hand. “Don’t let go.”

The sisters are enveloped in a cloud of smoke, and within a moment, they are gone.

BREAK

Considering that they have no idea how this happened, Zelena’s labor progressed without issue. Regina only let go of Zelena’s hand long enough to call Robin.

(“But it’s--it’s too early. It’s not even--”

“It got accelerated somehow but now she’s full term and having the baby, so you need to get here right now.”)

The labor itself was even accelerated, only lasting about two hours. And looking back, Regina realizes what an awkward two hours those really were. Robin, standing in the corner watching the woman he loves coaching the woman who raped him through the birth of his child (and assisted by Dr. Frankenstein himself, but that was neither here nor there.)

In truth, Regina had almost forgotten Robin was there at all until the baby’s cries announced her arrival into the world and Dr. Whale told them it’s a girl.

Robin had laughed a little in the corner, a relieved, quiet thing, and said, “A girl.”

“Is she okay?” Zelena had asked, frantic in that way all new mothers are. She stayed awake long enough for them to place her daughter on her chest, assure her that everything is okay, that Zelena herself is okay too, even though she might pass out from exhaustion given the magical strain of growing a full-term child in less than an hour.

In a few minutes, Zelena does just that; her hand had been curled over her daughter’s head, awe and shock and love in her eyes, and it slides away as she falls unconscious.

A nurse takes the baby so that she can be washed and wrapped and Regina steps backwards until her back collides with Robin’s chest. His arms automatically go around her waist and she turns into his embrace.

Regina is at a complete loss for words. There’s a maelstrom brewing in her heart, emotion making her uneasy and on edge. There’s only one person in Storybrooke who would’ve done something like this, and Dark Ones aren’t known to do things without a plan.

Emma has a plan for this baby, and if Regina knows anything about Dark Ones, no part of that plan is good.

“Does Dad want to hold her?” comes the voice of the nurse who had taken the baby, disrupting Regina’s thoughts. She’s wrapped up in a pink blanket, her puffy, red face peeking out.

“Yes,” Robin breathes. “Yes.” Regina steps away to give Robin free rein to take his daughter in his arms.

He holds her with the confidence and ease of someone who’s done this before but with all the reverence of a new parent. “Hello, my sweet,” he murmurs, and Regina’s heart melts, worries disappearing for a brief moment. His expression is blindingly happy, awestruck and humbled and thrilled and Regina has never seen anything like it on his face.

She wishes she could be that happy, but a shot of jealousy creeps into her belly.

And then it hurts all over again because the experience of having a child is what I always imagined having with you.

He looks up at Regina, and she forces a smile onto her face. “I have a daughter,” he says--whispers, really, a stunned, reverent thing that matches his expression.

“She’s beautiful,” Regina replies softly. Regina reaches out hesitantly, not really sure what her end goal is. She ends up placing a hand on Robin’s arm and squeezing.

Regina feels the prickle of powerful magic creep up the back of her neck and raise the hair on her arms the split second before a swirling storm of black and white smoke coalesces in the middle of the hospital room.

Zelena, even unconscious, must have felt it, because she lets out a soft moan and shifts on the bed.

“Get behind me,” Regina orders Robin tersely. He follows her directive immediately and cradles his daughter closer to his chest, almost tucking her into his jacket.

Her own magic sizzles in her palms as the teleportation spell dissipates and the former Savior is revealed.

She looks--remarkably like Emma. If it weren’t for the new white streaks running through her hair, then she could pass as being the same old sheriff of Storybrooke. When she turns her gaze on Regina, any semblance of familiarity seems to dry up.

Emma smiles, almost; it’s more of a sneer, a gleeful little expression of twisted delight that Regina most certainly recognizes.

“Hello, Regina,” she says. And it’s-- it’s not Emma.

It hurts more than Regina could have ever anticipated.

“You’re not getting your hands on this baby,” Regina replies.

Emma smiles again, this time like a parent whose child refuses to understand. “Oh I don’t need her.” She laughs. “That is, unless her mother doesn’t cooperate. Then I might need her. Oh, Zelena,” she singsongs. “Time to wake up.” A snap of her fingers, and Regina feels a jolt of magic run through the room. Zelena bursts awake with a gasping breath.

“There she is,” Emma says. “Now, I need you to come with me. And no one else will have to get involved.”

Zelena’s eyes are panicked as they flick between Emma and where Regina stands between her and Robin and the baby. “But you said that I’d get to keep her,” Zelena says. “You said that if I helped you, I would get to keep my baby.”

Emma just keeps smiling. “Yes. If you help me.”

Zelena’s panic settles into determination, mingled with some white hot anger. “Fine.”

“Wonderful,” Emma says, and with a flick of her wrist and a swirl of black and white smoke, both she and Zelena are gone.

Belle sits across the cavern from the comatose Rumple.

Once upon a time, she might have thought that she did love him truly enough to break any curse. She supposes she should’ve always known--they’d married and in any of their kisses, she’d never managed to free him from the Dark One curse. She’d poured everything she had into their relationship, poured everything she had in her heart and soul into making him a better man and it--

It never worked.

“Maybe I should’ve just accepted that I was never going to fix you,” she says, and then laughs, harsh and self-deprecating. “Listen to me. Talking about fixing you. As though that’s…”

She sighs again. “We were never meant to be, were we? How many good relationships you know of start with a kidnapping? Or, well, technically more of a hostage situation. And then everything with the Queens of Darkness? It was bad enough that you lied to me about the dagger and then you tried to kill someone I consider a friend. I didn’t even recognize you anymore. You became more obsessed with your power than… than anything and I can’t…” She closes her eyes and tips her head back against the wall. “I was afraid of my own husband. I was afraid of what you would do to me, what you would do to Will, what you would do to any of our friends. What kind of life is that?

“And now you don’t have it. The curse is gone, and for years that’s all I ever wanted.” Even though there’s no chance he can answer, she can’t look at him as she says, “But even though I know that, I’m still afraid of you. I’m afraid of what you’ll do without it, of who you’ll become trying to get it back. All these years I could just… blame it on the curse. That there was a good man beneath it all. But there’s--” She breaks off when her voice shakes, tears threatening her eyes. “I don’t think I want to know what the man underneath the curse is like anymore.”

“Heartbreaking,” says Emma and Belle nearly leaps out of her skin. She hadn’t heard her captor return, and she scrambles to her feet so that she can retain some sense of her dignity and turns to face her.

She gasps when she sees that Emma has brought a visitor.

Zelena, dressed in a thin hospital gown and looking for all the world like she’s beyond exhausted but still willing to fight tooth and nail, is on her knees next to the Dark One.

The Wicked Witch growls, “I’m here. So what do you need me for?”

Emma takes a few contemplative paces around the space. Belle swears she feels the temperature drop as Emma walks past her, a study in serenity, and it makes Belle feel sick to her stomach for what must be coming.

Finally pausing over Rumplestiltsken’s prone form, Emma speaks. “As a student of magic, Zelena, what would you say is wrong with this man?” She turns to face Zelena, a teacher awaiting answer.

“Are you kidding me? You dragged me out of my hospital bed and away from my daughter for a little bit of magic consultation?”

Daughter? Belle thinks. Zelena was only one or two months pregnant, last Belle knew. What could’ve--

Belle bites down on her tongue when she realizes. Emma must’ve sped it up. An image of the Dark One’s plan begins to shape in Belle’s mind against her will. She doesn’t want to imagine how this will end, doesn’t want to imagine how Emma is going to get Zelena to cooperate, can’t--

“I’ll drag you out of wherever whenever I please,” Emma replies harshly. “Now tell me. Why isn’t Rumplestiltsken waking up?”

Zelena still looks annoyed, but she gingerly lifts herself off the floor and limps over to where Rumple lies on the stone.

The way Zelena looks over him looks almost medical, checking his eyes and pulse, save for a faint glow in the palms of her hands. Her mouth purses in frustration--she clearly didn’t find what she’d expected to. Then she places a hand over his forehead, tilting her face downwards and closing her eyes. The light in her palm changes to purple, glowing bright for a half a second before it fades.

“It’s like he’s not even there,” Zelena says quietly, almost in wonder. When she realizes she’s spoken aloud, she turns to Emma, who waits expectantly.

“I tried to find his consciousness,” Zelena explains. “The essence of being, the spark of life. Name your metaphor. But it’s like there’s nothing knocking around in there anymore. Just empty brain activity.”

Belle’s heart wrenches.

Emma doesn’t seem surprised, and asks, “That’s because he’s here,” she says, tapping her temple. “All the past Dark Ones are.”

Zelena’s brows furrow. “Then why did you bring me here if you already know what’s wrong with him?”

“I need him awake,” Emma answers, matter-of-fact.

“Well I can’t do that,” Zelena answers in frustration. “I can’t just magic his consciousness back into his body--”

Emma cuts her off with a laugh. “That’s not what I need you for.”

“Bloody hell, then stop speaking in goddamn riddles and just tell me so I can go back to my daughter.”

Emma tilts her head to the side, studying Zelena. “If you think about it for a moment, I’m sure you’ll get it.”

But Belle understands what she wants first. “She wants to swap your life for his,” she says, the realization of what Emma has planned starting to dawn on her. “That’s why she accelerated your pregnancy. A life for a life, isn’t that right, Emma? Just like the spell Snow used to kill Cora.”

Emma smiles. “I knew Rumple kept you around for more than just a plaything.”

Belle recognizes it for what it is--a carefully placed barb meant to shut her up--but her angry reply is only cut off by Zelena’s outraged, “You wouldn’t dare.”

“Oh, I would,” Emma assures. “Being the Dark One wasn’t exactly in my life plans, but now that I have it, I’m seeing a much clearer path to what I want. And what I want is for you to die.”

“But you said I’d get to keep my daughter!”

Emma shrugs. “Unlike the last Dark One, I’m not much for contracts.”

“You can’t make me do this,” Zelena says, and suddenly hurls a ball of green energy at Emma.

The Dark One looks unconcerned, redirecting the blast at the wall of the cavern. The impact shakes the walls, and Belle looks up at the ceiling, praying it doesn’t come down on them.

Zelena growls, and releases a barrage of green offensive spells that Emma deflects much like before. Belle has only had a passing familiarity with Emma’s magical abilities before, but this still looks beyond any of the skills she’d possessed as the Savior. Either being the Dark One has fully granted her several lifetimes-worth of new knowledge, or someone’s been teaching her (but Belle can’t possibly imagine who that could be.)

“That’s enough!” Emma eventually shouts, and lets loose a blast of black and white magic that makes the hair on the back of Belle’s neck stand on end. It forces Zelena back against the wall and holds her there.

Even immobilized, the fight doesn’t go out of Zelena. The tendons in her neck press hard against her skin, her jaw clenches as she leans against the invisible force pinning her down.

“You can’t make me do this,” she growls.

Emma still looks unconcerned. “I won’t be forcing you to do anything.”

That makes Zelena pause, confusion flickering across her face.

The Dark One examines her nails and says, “I need an untainted heart willingly given,” she says. “So I have two options. One, revive Rumplestiltsken and take his. All scrubbed clean. My second option,” she strides towards Zelena slowly, purposefully, “is your daughter’s heart.”

Zelena’s face goes white. Belle feels as though a knife has pierced her chest.

“What?” Zelena chokes out.

Emma simply stares.

“You--you…. You wouldn’t do that,” Zelena stammers. “She’s just a baby.”

“Exactly. Her heart would serve just as well as Rumplestiltsken’s. You simply get to decide which one I use.”

“They--Regina will protect her,” Zelena says. “They won’t let you get her.”

Emma snorts a soft laugh. “Just like you just tried to?”

A tear slides down Zelena’s cheek. “I didn’t even--” she breaks off in a breathy sob. “I didn’t even get to hold her.”

Belle looks at Emma, denial running through her. Emma wouldn’t do this. Emma would never. Emma is the Savior, even being the Dark One couldn’t possibly erase all that, it’s not--

“And if you don’t do this, no one ever will.”

Tears fall freely from Zelena’s eyes now. All the fight and bluster she’d had goes out of her all at once, her body sagging against the magical bonds. Softly, shakily, she says, “You’re a monster.”

The Dark One smiles. “Only on the inside.”

The small placard on the open crib reads “Baby Girl Hood” and that alone is enough to make Regina smile, at least a little.

She is smaller than Henry was. Face puffier, skin still red and little eyes nearly swollen shut. She’s managed to free her hands from her swaddling, small fingers grasping around nothing and Regina reaches down on impulse. Her breath catches when little fingers wrap around one of hers, and she can’t stop staring at those tiny little fingernails. The little one opens her mouth, a yawn (maybe her first) and Regina can’t help but melt at the little squeak that comes from her mouth. It’s when she lets go and her face pinches up that Regina knows what’s coming. She’s been a mother for far too long to not know what the little pants mean, that they’re slowly going to build into whimpers, then cries, so she moves on instinct, picking her up and cradling her in close.

When she got Henry, he was old enough that he could support his own head, but she’d done enough reading going through the adoption process that she knows exactly what to do. Robin’s daughter squirms just the slightest bit before Regina tucks her in closer, whispering, “It’s okay, little one. No need for that, now.” She frees up one of her hands, letting the baby grasp her pinky with her newborn strength. Regina gives into the temptation to gently stroke the little girl’s cheek, and her baby soft skin is warm against her fingertips.

“That’s a good look on you,” she hears quietly from the doorway, and she startles slightly, but not for long because she knows Robin’s voice anywhere. “Sorry,” he apologizes.

“It’s fine. Usually people can’t sneak up on me.”

“I am very skilled at sneaking.”

She smiles. “I know, Mr. Thief.”

“And,” he adds gently, warmly, “you seemed a bit distracted.”

She looks back down at the baby in her arms, then back at Robin. “She’s beautiful.”

She can hear the pride in his voice when he answers, “I know.”

“Have you thought of any names yet?” she asks. She can hardly keep calling her ‘little one.’

He scratches the back of his neck, mussing his hair as he says sheepishly, “Not in the slightest. I’m afraid that one of the few advantages of pregnancies being nine months is that you’ve nine months to decide on a name. I was hoping you might have some suggestions.”

“Me?”

“Of course, you.”

“I--I just… I didn’t expect…” She looks down at the infant in her arms, suddenly feeling all sorts of things for this child that isn’t hers. (But she’s been down that road before, and she knows where it got her.)

“You’re going to be a part of her life, Regina,” he says, and adds, far less certain, “That is, if… if you want to be.”

“I do,” she answers. The little one yawns again, but she seems very content to stay where she is in Regina’s arms. She laughs a little then, looking back at Robin, “I thought we would have more time to talk about this. Now she’s here, and we’ve barely had time to sit down and talk to each other.”

“We have been a bit busy,” he says with that understanding smile, “What with the new Dark One and all.”

“Speaking of, are there any leads on where Emma may have taken Zelena? And has there been any sign of Belle?”

His lips tighten, so slight and unnoticeable that she would’ve missed it if she didn’t know him so well. “There are groups in the woods and in the mines, but so far there’s been no luck. Ruby and Hook returned to ask Emrys about a locator spell, but wherever they are being held, they’re hidden from that magic.”

Regina exhales, coming to a decision and setting Robin’s daughter back in the open crib. They need to do this sooner or later, and she’d rather not have a baby in her arms for it. “We need to talk about her. Zelena.”

His jaw clenches, his eyes going angry, and she hates what this is doing to him, but there’s no more putting it off. “Then perhaps we should take this somewhere more private.”

They don’t go far. Despite Emma’s claim that she didn’t need her, Regina isn’t comfortable leaving the child with no protection. (She casts a protection spell over the nursery doorway to keep anyone with bad intentions out just in case.) The deserted hospital corridor affords them a sightline on the viewing window, but is far enough that they wouldn’t disturb anyone.

Robin clearly doesn’t intend to start this conversation which bristles her just a little bit. This is his daughter’s future they are considering. “I know you don’t like talking about what Zelena did to you--”

“Damn right I don’t.”

Regina breathes in. Out. Tries to not think of the consequences of what she’s about to suggest. “But I’d like to give her visitation rights.”

Robin snaps immediately to attention, going completely still. “I’m sorry? I don’t think I quite got that. You’d like to <i>what</i>?”

“I’d like to give her visitation rights,” she says again. “Heavily monitored by one or both of us. We’ll set up wards so that she can’t teleport away. I’ll layer as many protection spells as I can to make sure you feel safe--”

“I’m sorry,” he interrupts, not sounding sorry in the least, “I’m sure you have a very detailed plan, but I’m still trying to wrap my head around the idea that you would give Zelena visitation to my daughter. That you would make me hand her over to that bloody witch at all.” His voice is rising, and Regina can feel her own temper starting to flare. “I don’t care how many protection spells are between me and her. I don’t care if there’s a hundred foot thick stone wall between us, or if she’s in a damned different realm. I can’t forgive what she did to my family. I can’t forgive that for a while, Roland thought he had his mother back. I can’t forgive that I had to give my own son a forgetting potion because not remembering would be less painful than the reality. And I know I can’t…” His voice drops out, posture withdrawing. “I can’t face her every week for the rest of my life. I can’t do that, Regina.”

“Then I won’t make you face her. I’ll handle everything.”

That makes him snap again, “See, you don’t get it. No matter what happens, she’s always going to be in my life if we do this. I’m always going to have to hand my daughter over to you to go and give to <i>her.</i> She’s always going to be on the periphery of my life, reminding me of what happened, and I’m not--” Robin’s breath catches, just the slightest bit, and she wants so badly to reach out to him. “I’m not strong enough to face that. No distance you could put between us would make what she did any easier for me to deal with.”

“Robin, she deserves a chance to be good.”

“She’s had a chance to be good. You’ve given her more second chances than anyone deserves. I don’t know how anyone can call you the Evil Queen anymore because this is damn well near <i>sainthood.</i>”

“You don’t understand--”

“What I <i>understand</i> is that Zelena murdered my wife, masqueraded as her for months in order to--” he cuts himself off painfully. His voice picks up again a few moments later, cold. “I had to live with her for months. I had to share my bed with a woman who deceived me to get there. I understand that you want to give her another chance. It’s because I understand that I am so bloody angry. I don’t want her near my daughter, I don’t want her near my family, I don’t want her near me.”

“Everything you’ve accused her of, I’ve done doubly worse. She murdered your wife? So did I in some alternate world before Emma and the pirate messed it up. She manipulated and used you? I couldn’t even give you the names of all the people I’ve done that to. I have murdered, I have tortured, I have cast curses that would make the darkest of souls quiver in their boots. She might be wicked, but wicked’s got <i>nothing</i> on evil.”

“She is not you, Regina. She does not have a good heart.”

“You’ve seen my heart. It’s not good.”

“No amount of blackness I’ve seen can change what I see in you, what Roland sees in you, what your son sees in you. But her?” he spits, “She’s said it herself, time and time again. She’s wicked and she’s no intention of changing. Even if she had, I’d want no part in it. And I certainly don’t want my daughter to be a part of it, either.”

“Robin, can you--”

He holds up a hand, and she can see his eyes close, his breathing coming slow and heavy. “Regina, I can’t right now. I’d rather not say something I’d regret.” Then he turns and paces back towards the room. Back towards his daughter.

Regina swallows heavily and lets him go.

“Emma always told me you have rum,” Regina says on approach.

“Lovely to see you too, Madame Mayor.”

“Shut up. Do you have any or not?”

Hook stares hard at her for a moment, a quirk in his brow before he removes a flask from his jacket. “And here I thought you ‘didn’t do rum.’ Any particular reason you’re seeking out my liquor?”

“It’s 2 in the afternoon on a Sunday. I might have created this town, but our liquor stores are still closed, and I’m not going to show my face at the Rabbit Hole.” She snatches the flask out of his hand, unscrews the cap, and takes a long pull.

She knows how to handle her liquor, but she struggles to not make a face. Hook must notice anyway. “Bit stronger than your usual?”

“I prefer whiskey,” she says, and the sour mood that particular statement brings prompts her to tilt the flask back for another long drink.

“This about your quandary with your sister and Robin?”

She shouldn’t answer. She owes him nothing, yet she nods anyway.

“I heard the little lass was born. I feel like I should extend some sort of congratulations to you.”

“Why?”

“Well, you and Robin are going to raise the child, are you not?”

“We--we talked about it. Sort of.”

“Sort of?”

“The due date being moved up eight months didn’t leave much time for that. Besides, there’s not much down time when the resident Savior has become the Dark One. But we… talked today. I want to give Zelena at least some sort of visitation.”

“And how does your beloved feel about that?”

“Not as enthusiastic.”

“Well, you’re far more charitable than I, love. Had someone done to Emma what Zelena did to Robin I would have no qualms disemboweling them with my hook.”

Regina could laugh, but drinks instead. “She’s got nothing on me.”

“I’d heard the queen entertained unwilling bedfellows.”

Regina’s blood goes icy, her jaw clenching. “Just one. I’m not proud of it. You’re a pirate, I can’t imagine you haven’t done the same.”

“Much as it may surprise you to hear, no. Even at my worst, I believed in good form. Didn’t always uphold that in my quest for revenge, but in that way I did. And quite frankly, with a face like this it was hardly a fight to find company.”

Regina rolls her eyes. “And you wonder why I don’t want you giving my son advice on girls.”

“No, I don’t wonder at all,” he answers, surprisingly quick. “I admit, that you allow him near me at all is somewhat of a surprise.”

“He likes you. And it would be hypocritical of me to call him my son if I wouldn’t let him be around you. I’m sure my body count is higher than yours.”

“Wouldn’t want to wager money on it. I have been around for several centuries longer than you, love, but I see your point.”

She takes another drink before she says, “That’s why I feel like I can’t keep Robin’s daughter away from Zelena. Since when did I become righteous enough to decide who gets a shot at redemption?”

“Regina,” Hook says in a teasing tone. “Are you asking for my advice?”

“I don’t ask for advice,” she shoots back. The alcohol is making her warm, and she can feel it swimming in her brain and eyes, but she’s far from drunk. It’s exactly what she came here for. “Why am I even talking to you?” she mutters and moves to turn away.

“Because in our little band of heroes, I’m the only other villain,” he says simply.

That stops her. Her fingers tighten around his flask.

“Unless you count the Crocodile, which I sincerely doubt.” She doesn’t turn back, but he keeps speaking. “No matter how much good you do, no matter how hard you try, you still wonder if they have as much faith in you as you do in them.”

She turns back to him then. “You don’t know what you’re talking about.” A pause, and it’s probably the alcohol that prompts her to say, “All of them love you. They keep you around even when they don’t need you.”

Hook responds, “Emma’s family has offered me far more charity than I deserve, something I’ll forever be grateful for, but don’t count yourself out. They all care very much about you.”

She holds back a scoff. “Maybe.”

He looks like he wants to say something else on the subject, but instead says, “Look, regardless of your apparent desire to wheedle away your afternoon drinking my alcohol, you came here for my advice and I’m going to give it to you.” She notices him turning his gaudy rings with his thumb. “It was only when I met Emma that I felt I was worthy of redemption. Because she saw someone worthwhile in me, I realized that I might be able to one day see what she saw. It feels like all your sins can be forgiven when someone loves you, and feeling like that… It’s like feeling the sun on your skin for the first time in centuries.”

Regina nods in understanding. “I know.”

“I never dared to expect that she would love me back.”

“Didn’t you?”

“I certainly hoped, and after Neverland it seemed…” He shakes himself out of some sort of reverie. “It was the first time I’d hoped for something good in centuries. That’s a powerful thing.”

“I don’t think Robin will ever see it that way.”

“I don’t expect he will. I should clarify, I’m on his side of this.”

“After what you just told me, how can you say that?”

“Our situations vary vastly from your sister’s. Zelena doesn’t want to change. She wants someone that will have no choice but to love her despite whatever villainous path she takes, and I’ve no sympathy for parents like that.”

“Because of what your father did to you?”

He ignores her prod and says, “Parents are supposed to protect their children, to hell and back. The only thing I can see Zelena protecting is herself.”

Regina holds the flask out to Hook, and he shakes his head. “I’m not imbibing today, thank you.”

She silently watches as he carefully keeps his eyes forward, notices the way his fingernails scrape across the top of the dock barrier and the muscle tic in his jaw. She can feel the significance of his answer, and screws the cap back into place. “Want it back?”

He nods wordlessly, still not looking at the flask as he stuffs it back into his jacket.

They simply stand in quiet companionship, listening to the churning waves. It feels like it’s been so long since Regina has felt like she hasn’t needed to be anywhere, or protect someone, or prove herself, or confront the painful reality that is her life. She never thought she’d find this sort of solace with the pirate, but life has never gone completely as expected for Regina Mills.

“Thank you, Killian,” Regina says simply. She’s fairly certain none of this would be happening without his rum loosening her tongue, but she doesn’t regret the catharsis.

He laughs, not at all what she was expecting. She turns, seeing that he’s wearing a pleasantly surprised grin, a complete reversal from earlier. “What, no ‘Captain Guyliner?’ No ‘One Hand Wonder?’ Where are the bon mots tonight?”

She rolls her eyes. “Don’t be an ass. Let me thank you and we’ll just be done with it.”

“Fine, then. You’re more than welcome, Regina.”

She feels like she could laugh at the sheer force of sass he manages to put behind the words, and his sincerity makes it break free.

It’s been too long since she’s laughed like this. No matter how short lived it will be, Regina relishes every moment.

And short lived it is; a minute later, both Regina and Killian turn towards the sound of running feet pounding against the pier. It’s Ruby, slightly breathless and with her eyes fixed on Regina. “Zelena was spotted in the woods. It looked like she was heading for the wishing well.”

Regina turns back to Killian, panic in her eyes and urgency opening up a chasm in her stomach.

“Go,” he says. “I’ll hold down the fort.”

“I’m coming with you,” Ruby says to Regina. “She might know where Emma is holding Belle.”

Regina has no desire to waste time talking the wolf out of it, so without fanfare, she grabs Ruby’s arm and envelops them in magic.

When they coalesce near the well, and Regina can feel the weight of dark magic over the small clearing. Zelena stands next to the stone structure, her hands held over the mouth as though she were conjuring something. It looks like she already has--a blue light emanates up from the well, lighting Zelena’s features. She looks distraught, her eyes swollen and face drawn and pale, and she looks up in surprise when the two figures materialize in front of her.

“Regina?”

“Zelena, what are you doing?” Regina asks as she steps towards her sister, motioning for Ruby to hang back.

“Stop!” she shouts, and Regina freezes. “This magic is hard to control. I don’t want you to--” Zelena seems to cut herself off when she realizes what she was about to say.

Regina takes a moment to try to decipher what sort of spell Zelena has performed. It looks unfamiliar to her, and while she can feel some sort of transference magic in it, it’s beyond anything she’s ever seen. It feels old. It feels ancient and powerful and almost malicious, and Regina wants her sister away from it now.

Ruby asks, “How did you get away from Emma?”

Zelena laughs. “She let me go.”

“Why on Earth would she--” Regina starts but Zelena doesn’t let her finish.

“Because she needs me to die,” she says flatly. “She gave me this enchantment because she needs Rumplestiltsken awake for her own goddamn spell, and she’s keeping Belle as leverage--”

“Where?” Ruby demands, stepping even with Regina. “Where is she keeping Belle?”

“Ruby--” Regina says, but is cut off again.

“No, she’s been through enough because of goddamned Dark Ones. Where the hell is she?”

“I didn’t exactly get the grand tour,” Zelena says sharply. She winces when a tendril of the spell leaps out, licking at her hand. “If I had to guess, somewhere in the mines. An offshooting cavern of some kind. There was a protection spell over it, so you probably won’t find it until Emma wants you to.”

“I don’t care,” Ruby replies, and she morphs from woman to wolf in a blink. The massive werewolf doesn’t spare a second glance at the sisters and bolts to the west, towards the nearest entrance to the mines she can find, Regina imagines.

A heavy silence settles over them for a few moments.

It’s broken by a thin chuckle from Zelena. “This isn’t exactly how I imagined I’d earn my Best Heroics Girl Scout badge.”

“Why are you doing this Zelena? What could Emma have possibly done to make you decide to give yourself up for that man’s life?”

Zelena’s answer is prompt and straightforward. “She threatened my daughter.”

“She what?”

Zelena looks down at the spell at the well’s mouth, the incandescence of it shining off her face. “She said that she needed an untainted heart willingly given.”

Regina knows enough magic theory to understand the context of the threat. She feels like she could vomit.

“Emma would never--”

“Yeah, well, she’s not exactly just Emma anymore, is she? And you and I have plenty of experience with the last Dark One to know exactly what they’re capable of when they want something.”

Regina’s mind reels. “So we--we protect her. We’ll take her out of town, or we can ask the fairies and the Knights of the Round Table to help us. Emrys has strong light magic, maybe even as strong as Emma’s, and I trained her. How much does she know that I can’t counter--”

“And that’s all well and good, but have you considered that she’s more powerful than any protective measure you can conjure? Who knows if the town line is even open to cross anymore, and the remaining fairies are so weak any sorceress with half a month of training could cut them down. We know nothing about this Emrys bloke, and you? Regina, you’re talented, but I threw everything I had at her and she didn’t even--” Zelena breaks off in a self-deprecating scoff. “She didn’t even flinch.” A heavy beat. “This is the only way.”

“Zelena, it doesn’t have to end like this. We can find another way, it’ll just take some time--”

“Time that we don’t have,” she snaps. “With my daughter on the line, I’m not willing to risk it.” Zelena looks down at the well again, the spell crackling away under her palms. She closes her eyes and says, “What you said about redemption--” she looks up to meet Regina’s gaze. “Did you mean it?”

“Of course I did,” Regina replies, voice thin and eyes burning. More words of hope are on Regina’s lips, possible solutions whirling through her head faster than she could truly comprehend, but Zelena sees this and interrupts her.

“I need to do this. If the choice is that she lives and I don’t…” The rest remains unspoken. It’s a quiet understanding between mothers, and it’s not in Regina’s nature anymore to give up, to submit, to accept defeat, but this isn’t something that she can fight against. She knows that if Henry were the one in danger, Regina would be doing the exact same thing.

“Just make sure she remembers me?” Zelena says, a tear trailing down her cheek. “When she gets old enough, tell her I’m sorry I wasn’t there. Tell her I love her no matter what.”

Regina can only nod as her own tears start to fall.

“And…. And I want you to tell Robin that I’m sorry. He didn’t deserve….” She swallows heavily. “Just tell him?”

“I will.”

A long, heavy pause precedes Zelena’s final request. “I want her to have a mum.”

That startles Regina.

Zelena just nods. “I want her to have a real, proper mum who will love her and--and make her sweets and give her advice and show her how to use her magic if she has it and--and….” She meets Regina’s eyes again, more urgency in this appeal than any of her others. “Give her what we never had.”

Regina will never remember what her response was. Years later, when she thinks back on this moment, she will remember saying something, remember Zelena’s resolute nod.

They never said I love you, that Regina knows. It wasn’t the right time for it, too soon, their last conversations not doing enough to stitch together all the raw and gaping wounds they’d caused each other in the years of their acquaintance. And while it hadn’t been enough it was still--

It was still something. It was the promise of more. It was a small spark that could painstakingly grow out of the darkness if they just tried.

Later, when Regina makes her peace with that day at the well, after she makes her peace with Emma for being responsible for Zelena’s death, she’ll be able to appreciate that.

But at that moment as Regina watches her sister, the last living member of her family, plunge her hands into the shimmering blue web of the spell, she does not feel peace or relief. It’s effect is nearly instantaneous, the spell running up her arms and over her body like an electric shock before withdrawing back into the opening and down into the depths of the earth.

A shockwave pulses from the well, a clear, magical tremor that Regina hardly notices as she runs to her sister’s side, catching her before she hits the ground.

At that moment, Regina watches that spark fade before her eyes.

At that moment, the profound feeling of loss carving a canyon in her chest is filled with the familiar river of rage.

Emma feels the moment Zelena dies--Rumplestiltsken’s consciousness is plucked out of the thousands of lives within the Dark One and within one breath and the next, his body reanimates in front of her.

She hears Belle’s quiet gasp of shock behind her but ignores her entirely.

His eyes flicker open, confusion written across his face.

Emma smiles down at him.

“I’ve been waiting for this.”

[wackygoofball]

Jaime x Brienne: Undercover Officers AU

When Jaime Lannister received the order from his captain that he would go on the next undercover mission to take up yet another drug ring led by two of the most dangerous and influential men in King’s Landing’s underground scene, Petyr Baelish and Roose Bolton, he thought nothing much of it, a job like any other.

You live or you die playing the game. There is no middle ground.

The danger of the job is inevitable, Jaime knows. And over the years, he accustomed himself to the idea that any of those missions will likely mean his demise far sooner than later.

The DEA officer has a self-chosen mission to fulfill, after all, trying to wipe out one of the most dangerous and destructive drugs currently known around Westeros, Wildfire, a drug that annihilated his life in many ways, marking it with loss, regret, and the stigma of the Kingslayer that he inherited ever since that one fateful day that almost went up in endless green.

Jaime is assigned to Petyr Baelish, whose primary focus lies on the distribution of drugs and taking care of the prostitutes “under his care.” It’s no new story to Jaime that those drugs are used to keep the women in Littlefinger’s brothels, but that doesn’t stop the DEA officer from feeling the sincere need to open that guy’s throat the way he has done it to Aerys when he earned himself the nickname of the Kingslayer.

He is supposed to work himself to the top, starting out as a henchman meant to do odd jobs for Baelish to earn the man’s trust – and that is what Jaime is to do, under the alias of James Dayne.

The allowance into the ranks of Petyr Baelish goes smoother than Jaime hoped it would, but it becomes painfully obvious that the man is in dire need of able men, and James proves to be just that asset Littlefinger has been seeking.

“Chaos is a ladder. I need chaos to spread, and you… you have what it takes to create chaos in my name. So? Can you do the job? Can you spread chaos for me?”

“I don’t care about chaos theory or any of that shit, but of that I can assure you, if you tell me to do something, it will be done. What you make of it is up to you.”

“I think we will have a good time together, James. A very good time.”

Soon, Jaime is introduced to “the dear family,” Baelish’s “business partner,” Roose Bolton and his sinister son Ramsay Snow, who is taking over the gambling and secret disposal of enemies threatening their profit. And a first glimpse at the business practices through Roose Bolton is not far away as Jaime comes face-to-face with the ominous man for the first time: “You must know, Mr. Dayne, there is a fine if crucial difference between punching a man’s teeth out after he didn’t pay for the drugs he received – and ensuring that someone disappears from the face of the earth, so he may never speak again. It is an art.”

“One that you paint with a lot of red, I assume.”

“That depends.”

“On what?”

“How sharp the knife is with which the task is carried out. The sharper the knife, the more effective the cut, the les blood… the less of a mess.”

Jaime finds his cover almost blown when Mr. Bolton’s bookkeeper, a tall woman with blonde hair, brilliant blue eyes, and a way too sharp tongue for her own good, starts to ask uneasy questions about his background, a history that is nothing more but fiction and some faked IDs. While Jaime manages to talk himself out of the situation at the last second, the undercover officer notes that Gale Morne may prove to be more dangerous to him than the assassin or the drug lord. Because if she blows his cover, Jaime knows, he is done for, and all the hard work to trace down the biggest distributor of Wildfire will slip through his fingers. And he can’t let that happen.

Not again.

In dire need of a Scotch and a cigarette after that introduction to the family, Jaime seeks out the next best bar, but as he makes his way down the dark alleys of King’s Landing, he spots Bolton’s bookkeeper. Wanting to investigate, the DEA officer abandons the Scotch to tail the woman instead.

However, the investigation comes to an abrupt end after rounding some dark corner, only to be knocked to the ground out of nowhere – by the bookkeeper in business suit.

“Why do you little shit keep following me around?” she barks, one knee solidly over his sternum as she keeps pressing him into the pavement to the point that Jaime sees stars.

“The boss said that we will… likely get to work together… more closely… so I thought… I thought we might just as well… get to know one another,” he rasps, though Gale only hits him across the face in return.

“Liar. So now, you will tell me what you want, tailing me ever since the mini mart down main street, or else you will walk around with your mouth sewn shut after I am done with your jaw.”

Jaime wastes no time, using one moment of distraction to turn tables, his mind entirely set on survival now. He manages to flip her over, and the two start a fight. While Jaime does not want to kill that woman, he will do it if she gives him a reason. He can’t afford to have his cover blown now, or else all will be for nothing.

They draw guns at the exact same moment, aiming at each other, ready to fire.

“Listen now. I don't want to kill you,” Jaime curses through gritted teeth. “Don’t give a reason to shoot you dead.”

“For that, you would have to hit first,” she hisses.

“No, you don’t understand. I am not your enemy, woman! It doesn’t have to end like this… Listen, we can end this peacefully and go our ways again.”

“Who sent you? Baelish himself?”

“For what would he send me?”

“Why would you tail me if you didn’t get the order from someone?” she retorts. “And now you listen: I have no interest in you, just like I have no interest in killing you. But I will do it. What I am doing here is far more important than you are.”

“Playing secretary for a murderer, you mean?” Jaime snarls.

He can spot something shift in her face, though the woman seems to know better than to let on. She licks her lips, tightening her grip on the gun. “Rich coming from a guy doing odd jobs for said murderer’s business partner, who has about as much blood on his hands as Bolton does. You don’t even want to know how many prostitutes they threw into the water after they got overdosed on Wildfire, and rarely by their own choice.”

Jaime ponders the options, but finds none other than one that still bears a lot of danger, to say the least.

“Let’s make a truce.”

“You need trust to have a truce.”

“I trust you,” he replies. And Jaime can’t explain it to himself as he does it, but he lowers his gun to show her just that. “See?”

The woman looks at him in shock.

Good.

“I am an officer of the DEA. I am undercover to hopefully take up both these assholes. And judging by the way you look at me, you don’t want them to continue either. So… if you want that to end, you better lower your gun, too.”

To his surprise, Gale actually does, but then… breaks out laughing.

Wait, what?

“You should have said that sooner,” the blonde woman huffs, her attitude completely changing a she steps closer, stuffing the gun away again, wiping blood from her nose off with her sleeve with the other hand. “The departments have shitty communication.”

Jaime blinks, still trying to catch on to the new information.

“You are not the only one trying to drain the swamp, just that I work on it from the other end. Homicide Special Section.” She holds out her hand to help him stand, which Jaime accepts gratefully, because his sides are nearly killing him after getting kicked by her repeatedly – because damn, that woman is strong.

“Jaime Lannister.”

“Brienne of Tarth.”

“Well, as it appears, we will be working that case together from now on, then.”

“What? Seven Hells no. You will resign the first chance you get.”

“Why would I do that?”

“I was here first.”

“For real? That is your argument?”

“We are investigating murder cases. My department has higher stakes in this. I am undercover for far longer than you are. I have established myself as Bolton’s right hand. So, the best you can do is to pull out now so that I can do my job. You pose a danger to my cover.”

“I won’t pull out. Even if you capture Bolton, that doesn’t mean you get Baelish and those who distribute the drugs. If we blow them up, we have to be sure both are right at the epicenter.”

“I can take care of that myself.”

“Just that I won’t leave, sorry about that, wench.”

“Wench?”

He shrugs. “Get used to the idea, you are not the only one who has made sacrifices and put in much effort to get here. So curb your territorial attitude and be reasonable.”

“I should just call you out as a snitch.”

“If you do that, the dynamic duo will only ever be more cautious about potential more snitches. And you think they won’t target you, after exposing me? That is the first address to turn to. You know that. Face it, Brienne, we are stuck in this together.”

“… Fine, but if you act stupid just once, I will have you out.”

“Is that a threat?”

“A promise.”

And so, the two undercover agents now encounter the reality of having to stage everything for an epic blow-up to take down both Roose Bolton and Petyr Baelish, to destroy their underground empire once and for all, and that against the odds of very differing tactics and the ongoing arguments between the two.

However, danger is only just inches away, under the watchful eyes of the bosses as well as their own henchmen looming behind every corner. Just like the two find themselves dragged deeper and deeper into the darkest corners of the city, caught between drugs, gambling, blackmail, and murder.

As the two are increasingly forced to work together, Jaime is bound to learn more about the other undercover agent, who, like him, is here for much more personal reasons than Brienne lets on, trying her best to keep it strictly professional, though even the strong agent in disguise seems to have reached her breaking point far sooner than later.

“Every day I wake up, knowing that I will have to serve the guy who is responsible for my big brother’s murder. Every day I wake up, knowing I will have to smile at him, advise him, bring him beverages, make sure his business keeps running. Every day I wake up, having to wait for him to make a wrong step so that, at last, I can stop the murders that keep happening on my watch. Every single day. It has to end. It just has to, because if it doesn’t end any time soon… I will shoot him in the head. Him and his bastard of a son. For Galladon. I just can't do this for much longer. It’s eating me alive.”

More and more, Jaime and Brienne have to wrestle not just with their own demons, but also with their desolation drawing them closer to one another than it should, granted that they have a job to do, a mission to fulfill, that they cannot afford to fail, cannot afford to make it personal.

“Because people live and die in the game, and you cannot afford to get too attached. If you do, you will end up making choices based on your heart, not your mind. And in this game, we cannot afford to make just one wrong move, or else we will both end up like my brother, in a body bag drifting by the shore.”

However, that doesn’t make their threatening, growing attraction any less real, any less palpable, any less of the one escape in a mission that brings them to the breaking point, which has them function as the one thing that keeps them from coming apart.

A big drug delivery to the Dornish underground scene led by Ellaria Sand may finally bring the turn in the game that the two have been waiting for, for what feels like an eternity already. If they manage to expose them with their hands right in the “Dornish plum’s jar,” this may bring them victory at last.

Brienne is tasked to use a moment of distraction to be created by Jaime to steal the neatly stored information Bolton keeps on his customers as well as his “achievements” from his computer, to finally confirm Roose Bolton responsible for all those murders, including that of Galladon of Tarth.

Jaime, meanwhile, is supposed to take care of the drugs meant to go to Dorne, so that Baelish also gets his well-deserved punishment.

However, things take a sudden turn when the two have to realize that they were exposed, understanding far too late that they were not the only ones designing a plot to blow the others up.

A battle against the clock ensues, a game of cat-and-mouse, as Jaime and Brienne try to get each other out danger, try to save one another from sure death at the hands of some of the most dangerous men in all of Westeros.

Will they succeed?

Or will they go under forever?

[real-life-pine-tree]

Seed of Darkness: The Will of the Void (8/?)

All it takes it one bad seed to spoil the whole bunch. An AU collab with @violetganache42​.

This sudden revelation alarmed both Shay and Yuto. Yuya was somehow possessed by the demonic entity responsible for Duelists getting Reversed? And for how long was this possession?

"What did you do to Yuya?!" Yuto demanded.

The Void let out a laugh. "But I am Yuya," it said. "We are one and the same. I inserted myself into his body and now I can take control of him at any time, even when he doesn't realize it! Just like when I placed that hidden tracking beacon on his human girlfriend!"

Tracking beacon? The two words echoed in Yuto and Shay’s heads and they instantly realized what this meant. Zuzu was now in grave danger and she doesn’t know it yet. Yuto knew he had to find her and Dennis and warn them about how she is secretly vulnerable and much easier to get hunted down by the Reversed Duelists.

"There's no use warning your friend, eggplant boy," the Void said. "Every time someone is given my gift, I become stronger. And if I'm correct, which I am, the girl whom has Chaos Breaker Dragon has already Reversed her."

Shay and Yuto weren't sure how to respond, so the Void continued. "Link Joker is my avatar," it explained. "The Units I created all live to serve me. Every time someone is Reversed, one of my Units possess their signature Duel Monster." It held up a Duel Monster card that had a black and blood red border. "Take Odd-Eyes Joker Dragon for example. In actuality, my trusted Unit, Omega Glendios, is possessing my host's signature dragon. And he's such a good sport about it. He was created to serve as Link Joker's ultimate weapon: a cyber golem who can wipe out an opponent's team in an instant."

"So who's this chaos dragon?" Shay asked.

"Chaos Breaker Dragon is my second-in-command," the Void explained. "He's the one giving my trusted agent the power she needs to help spread my will. Sure I don't approve of her violent tactics, but at least her methods are helping me gain more power."

Although Shay concentrated on gaining more information about the new threat, Yuto was more focused on this “she” creature the Void was referring to. He wasn’t sure why, but he was positive he may have an idea on who she may be because there was only one Duel Monster-Unit hybrid capable of spreading its corruption all over Paradise City; Dennis knows about her and the ensuing terror, leading him to give the former a single warning.

”Beware the demon cat from Hell.”

"Celina," Yuto stated.

"Correct," the Void said. "I heard her cries of betrayal two years ago. So I came to her assistance with only a single deal: I give her the power she needed to break free, but she must help me with my plan of spreading my gift throughout the planet." It held up Odd-Eyes Joker Dragon's card, a dark red aura appearing around it. "But I can't let you go around telling others about my plan. I summon Odd-Eyes Jok-"

"Stop right there, you demonic parasite!"

The trio turned to the direction of where that voice came from and saw a young teen with his light blue hair tied into a ponytail running into one of the ancient ruins. Yuto figured it must be Sora because he definitely doesn’t look like this Yuri person; unfortunately, Sora’s arrival was much to Shay’s dismay because he knows him all too well. As for the Void and the Reversed Knights, they simply viewed this as their prey running towards the inevitable.

"Well if it isn't one of the three Fusionites who resist my gift," the Void said.

"So you're actually on our side?" Shay asked Sora.

"It's not like we had a choice," Sora explained in disdain. "The Void took over all of Duel Academy. All that's left of the Professor's reign is me, Dennis, and Yuri."

"Yuya and me met Dennis," Yuto explained. "He told us about the third person in your group. Does he have a British accent?"

"Yep," Sora confirmed. "The three of us are trying to gather allies to help us stop this infection, even if it means siding with you XYZ scum."

"Are you sure this isn't one of your tricks?" Shay asked.

"I'm serious!" Sora insisted. "I don't care if you trust me or not!" He readied his Duel Disk. "The main focus is to take out the one enemy we have in common."

"How cute," the Void said. "You really think you can stop me- GAH!"

Yuto, Shay, and Sora’s conversation was cut off by an abrupt interruption from the Void. It tried as hard as it could to keep Yuya under its control, but he was retaliating harder than him. Their ongoing conflict led to him arching his head all the way the back until he was looking up at the sky and ran his hands through his hair while also clutching his head. He was struggling to resist the Void’s power as not only seen by his movements but heard by his demonic growls and terrified, trembling moans as well.

"Yuya?" Sora asked.

Yuya's normal eye looked at Sora. "Contact...Gong..." he gasped. "He-"

"BE QUIET, YOU WEAK HUMAN!" the Void roared, grasping Yuya's throat with both hands.

"Gong?" Yuto asked. He looked over at Sora. "Is that one of Yuya's friends?"

"He is," Sora answered. "He shouldn't be hard to miss with his Superheavy Samurais."

"Alright," Yuto said. "I'll go find him."

"No," Shay said. "You two stay here and hold off the Reverse."

"Are you sure?" Yuto asked.

"If the Void really is our enemy, its minions shouldn't be hard to defeat," Shay said.

"But what if you get Reversed as well?" Yuto asked. "You know this is like a virus."

"Simple," Shay replied. "I just won't lose."

Even though he was just learning about this now, Shay might have found a way to fend off—and maybe defeat—the Reversed Duelists. He understands if someone loses a duel against a Reversed Duelist, they’ll end up getting Reversed; if that person ended up winning, on the other hand, then they’ll avoid falling for the same fate as everyone else. Surely, him not losing won’t be too much of a problem; after all, he does have his Rise Falcon and his trusty Raidraptor deck, so utilizing its effects will make his victories against them likely.

"Alright," Yuto said, glancing nervously at Yuya. "But you better be quick. I'm not sure if Yuya can resist much longer."

Shay dashed away from the source of conflict and out of Ancient Zone, leaving Yuto and Sora to help Yuya combat the Void. He kept running through the duel field for a little while, but it felt like forever to him due to the seriously high levels of severity this situation was. He eventually ran into Jungle Zone where he saw two Duelists up ahead; as he got closer, he spotted samuri-esque clothing one of them was wearing. It has to be this Gong person Yuya mentioned, Shay thought to himself. It was a good thing he made it on time to break the news to Gong because he had just finished his duel against a fisherman Duelist named Trout.

"Gong don't know what's goin' on, but ya better snap out of it!" the Superheavy Samurai user demanded. "What's this void you're speakin' of?!"

Trout blinked, almost like he snapped out of a trace. "Where am I?" he asked.

"Don't play dumb!" Gong responded, grabbing Trout by his shirt. "Now tell Gong everything you know!"

"I'm serious!" Trout insisted. "I never heard of this void thing!"

Shay raised his eyebrows as he overheard the two Duelists’ exchange, mainly because this is the aftermath of their duel. Gong has heard about the Void? And seeing that he was the victor, he wasn’t Reversed like the others, so…Trout was trying to Reverse him? So why can’t he remember anything from their duel all of a sudden? Is this what happens when you defeat a Reversed Duelist: they return to normal and lose their memories of being Reversed? If that was the case, then Shay now has a really important reason to notify Gong about the phenomenon.

"That's enough," Shay said as he stepped forward.

Gong released his grip on Trout. "Shay Obsidian?" he asked. "What are you doin' here?"

"I'm here because your friend Yuya needs to see you," Shay informed. "He's been possessed by the Void itself."

"Not you too!" Gong exclaimed. "What exactly is this void thing?!"

"To put in simply, it might as well be the Devil himself," Shay answered.

Gong knew this wasn’t going to be pleasant since they were literally going up against what might be considered the Duel Monsters version of Satan…but it wasn’t Duel Monsters-related per se. Although he was still confused on the whole issue in general, he got a bit of a better idea of who the Void is. Shay mentioned how Yuto will explain more about the ordeal once they manage to help Yuya out.

"What about me?" Trout asked. "Is there anything I can do?"

"Duelists get Reversed if they lose to one of the Void's followers," Shay explained. "The answer is simple: don't duel them. And warn as many people you can find-"

Suddenly, Trout’s Duel Disk began to illuminate a icy blue light from the screen, cutting off Shay’s sentence and blinding him and Gong. The light enveloped Trout’s entire body and covered him in holographic pixels that made him vanish from Jungle Zone. Once the light faded away, Gong and Shay were left speechless by this strange occurrence; why did this happen? What was the result of Trout’s fate? And if he’s okay, where did he end up?

"Where'd he go?" Gong asked. Suddenly, a voice message appeared on his and Shay's Duel Disks, along with the Duel Disks of every non-Reversed Duelist in all four zones.

"This message goes out to every person in the Standard Dimension. To all of the remaining Duel Academy students there, do NOT return home. As you know, a certain someone has murdered Professor Leo Akaba. But ever since that tragedy, our home has drastically changed. It is unsafe to return.

"But don't worry. From now on, this dimension will serve under the protection of the Phoenix Resistance, a group of people who serve under my command as a former Duel Academy division. We will use our technology to transport any possible ally back to our base for training against our new enemy. I'm not quite sure if this message will reach anyone, but to the remaining Duel Academy students, please contact me immediately. The fate of the world, and possibly all life itself, depends on us."

Meanwhile, throughout the Action Field, most of the Duelists that were and weren’t competing were baffled by the message, but they were all worried about who this new enemy may be. Yuri, Dennis, and Sora, on the other hand felt overjoyed by the sound of the voice they heard. Aster Phoenix, the Commander-in-Chief of Duel Academy, made it through the uprising okay, meaning there was the strong possibility of survivors staying at the Phoenix Resistance as well. They all knew they may have a chance in their newly engaged war against the Void.

Yuri, who was in Iceberg Zone, was smiling as tears of joy came from his eyes. He activated his Duel Disk's communication feature. "This is Yuri of Obelisk Force Branch 3A-2," he reported. "I'm alright and I will do everything I can to help."

In Volcano Zone, Dennis activated his Duel Disk's communication feature. "This is Dennis McField of Obelisk Force Branch 3A-2," he reported. "I heard your message, Commander Phoenix. I will remain in Standard."

Back in Ancient Zone, Yuya was unconscious thanks to Yuto's knock-out punch trick. Sora had proceed to activate his Duel Disk's communication feature. "This is Sora Perse of Obelisk Force Branch 3A-2," he reported. "Thank you for the warning, Commander Phoenix. My comrades and I are recruiting possible allies as we speak."

"You know that person?" Yuto asked.

"Of course," Sora answered. "That was Aster Phoenix, the Commander-in-Chief of Duel Academy. And if that message is any indication, we might have a chance at fighting back."

"So Duel Academy really is on our side," Yuto noted. "You were telling the truth."

"We had no other choice," Sora emphasized. "When the Professor died, we lost our motives. We no longer want to fuse all four of the dimensions into one. This Devil-like being took away everything from us, so now we're fighting to regain our home."

A small gasp escaped Yuto’s mouth when Sora explained Duel Academy’s change in motives. He realized they were now stuck in the same boat as the XYZ Dimension because a threat took them down by surprise and left only a handful of survivors to resist against the enemy. In this case, however, the Void poses a threat to all four dimensions, not just the Fusion Dimension alone, so if the remaining Duel Academy students were going to get through this, Yuto will have to ally himself with the former enemy to save everyone.

"Alright," Yuto said. "I'm not sure about Shay, but you have my support."

"Thanks," Sora replied, glad he had someone helping him.

Sora waited for Aster to reply to him since he’s either busy with aiding his resistance group, in the middle of communicating with Yuri or Dennis, or maybe both. Yuto stood outside of the ruins to see if Shay made it to Gong okay while glancing over at a knocked out Yuya, wondering how the Void’s possessions will affect him in the near future. After about a minute, he spotted two figures running closer and closer to him, which was revealed to be Shay and Gong, who wanted to see if his friend was okay and what the Void ordeal is truly about.

"Yuya!" Gong exclaimed, rushing over to hug Yuto. "You're okay! Shay said you were possessed by some demon, but Gong knew you were alright!"

Yuto didn’t had any time to react to the sudden bear hug that was given to him and was now rendered to a point where he couldn’t breathe. He knew he was being mistaken for Yuya, but was it due to Gong thinking Yuya was “wearing the wig again” or because of their exact facial structures? To think Yuto would have been identified as a seperate person now that he has glasses on, but this was a hard truth he had to face: some things never change…and mistaken identities was one of them, much to his disappointment. Of course, this felt more awkward than disappointing because Shay and Sora were witnessing the whole thing.

"That's not Yuya," Shay told Gong.

"He's not?" Gong asked as he released his grip on Yuto. "Then where is he?"

"He's over here," Yuto answered, leading the way. "But I must warn you. It's not a pretty picture."

The four Duelists walked to where Yuya laid on the ground when they noticed something eerily off that made Gong understand why it isn’t a pretty picture. They all saw dark, blood red aura eminating from his body, from the top of his head to the bottom of his feet. How long has this been going on for?

"Yuya!" Gong exclaimed, panicked. He ran over to the tomato-haired teen's body. "Is he alright?!"

"Not at all," Sora answered. "Shay probably told you about the Void, right?"

"He did," Gong replied. "But Gong's still confused 'bout what it really is."

"We're not sure either," Shay said. "When I described it as the Devil itself, it was only a guess."

"Worse, the only one who can actually figure it out has somehow vanished," Yuto said, referring to Aura. "But she described the Reverse as a virus."

"Gong remembers that Trout fella mentionin' that word," the Superheavy Samurai user recalled. "Was he tryin' to..."

"Infect you over to their side?" Yuto finished. "Pretty much."

"Luckily I have allies to help us fight back," Sora said. "Dennis McField and Yuri. "Dennis is currently protecting Zuzu, but I'm not sure where Yuri is. Hopefully they'll help us recruit more allies."

"Is that why Yuya needed Gong's help?" Gong asked.

"I think it's more like he trusts you to help him," Sora clarified. "I guess it's because of your history with him."

Gong knew Sora had a point on why Yuya would choose him. They have known each other for years and even protected him from the bullies after Yusho disappeared, even having to duel against Grizzlepike Jones, a former senior member of the Strong Dojo and an eliminated contestant of the Arc League Championship. Even though the bullying subsided, whatever is causing Yuya to emit this bloody-colored aura proves he needed to protect his childhood friend once again; this time, it was at a much larger scale thanks to the Void and the Reversed Duelists.

Gong approached Yuya. "Don't worry, buddy," he said, giving Yuya's hand a gentle squeeze. "Gong's here to help ya out."

Upon the hand squeeze, Yuya smiled in his sleep. "Thanks Gong..." he muttered.

Meanwhile, at the Volcano Zone, Celina had easily escaped from Dennis, Sylvio, and Julia with her Lunar Eclipse card and was hiding behind a rock formation. With her main mission now complete, she continued her secondary mission of finding more Duelists to give the gift of the Reverse by scouting out the area from where she hid. She had found her next victim who beared a striking resemblence to the mysterious Moon Shadow, but he had warmer colors consisting of mainly oranges. Naturally, it was yet another easy victory just like her previous duels, but she didn’t mind; as long as progress is being made on Reversing the Standard Dimension, that’s all that matters to her and Cat Dancer - Reverse.

"Make him suffer..."

Celina was alarmed by the voice. "Who said that?" she asked.

"I did. Make that ninja suffer. Torture him by giving him hope, then yank it away and claim victory for yourself!"

She turned to the sound of the viciously feminine voice and noticed it was coming from her very own Unit-Monster. It sounded like Cat Dancer - Reverse was the one demanding her to fool Sun Shadow into thinking he’ll win, only for him to have it dashed, leading him to getting Reversed. What stunned her wasn’t from what her monster said, but it was from the fact that she can talk to her. Since when did she have that ability and how long has it been lingering around for? Whatever the answer was, Celina at least knew Cat Dancer - Reverse was pretty much speaking her language about how to win this duel.

And so, Celina put her ace back in her deck and walked up to Sun Shadow, who was surprised by her presence. "Zuzu?" he asked. "Is that you? When did you change your hairdo?"

"Are you...a strong Duelist?" Celina asked.

Sun Shadow didn’t know how to respond to that question, mainly because of how she interrogated him. Something told him this girl wasn’t Zuzu; if her mannerisms were a sign that something was off, then her markings were a dead giveaway of imminent danger.

"I see," Sun Shadow remarked. "Then perhaps you will tell me what is going on once I defeat you in a duel."

A wicked grin appeared on Celina's face. "That's exactly what I wanted you to say," she said as she activated her Duel Disk.

Sun Shadow activated his Duel Disk to signal the start of their duel as they drew their first five cards and their Life Points went up to 4000. While that was going on, something remarkable had taken place at Ancient Zone: Shay, Yuto, Sora, and Gong were all pleased to see Yuya was regaining consciousness, and from the looks of things, he seemed to be back to normal.

"Yuya!" Gong exclaimed, rushing over to him him. "You're alri-"

"Get away from me!" Yuya shouted, making Gong stop in his tracks.

"Yuya...?" Yuto asked.

"I don't want to hurt any more people!" Yuya cried, covering his right eye with his hand. "This Void thing could take over any minute!"

The sudden outburst shocked Gong into complete silence because of how upset and powerless Yuya felt with the presence of the Void lurking around and waiting for the opportunity to strike. Yuto, Shay, and Sora weren’t sure how to respond to it either despite feeling bad for their companion. Shay looked around and noticed the Reversed Knights weren’t around anymore, at least not since he went off to find Gong. Yuto and Sora explained they managed to chase them away during his search by fending them off and knocking the Void out of commission. Although that was good to hear, it didn’t change the fact the recent events of the Reverse phenomenon was becoming increasingly serious, so there was no telling what could happen.

"But Yuya, Sora said you wanted Gong to come over here," the Superheavy Samurai explained.

"I don't remember what I said," Yuya admitted, rubbing the back of his head. "All I remember is struggling to regain control from the Void. Somehow hearing Sora's voice gave me the strength to fight back, then I felt something hard hit my stomach before I lost consciousness."

Shay glared at Yuto. "I had no other choice," the eggplant-haired teen admitted. "He bit my hand."

Sora vouched for Yuto and explained what had happened. The two were struggling to deal with Ashley, Bram, and Carl while also assisting Yuya with breaking free from the Void’s grasp. As Sora was busy with his turn, Yuya kept thrashing around in a similar manner to a demon-possessed person because, well, a demonic entity was possessing him. Yuto ran towards to where he was to try and restrain him, but his hand was bitten and was followed by an upper cut, so having no other option, he resorted to punching Yuya’s stomach; fortunately, that made some progress as the latter fell unconscious and returned to normal as he fell back first on the ground. Sora and the Knights witnessed what took place, and even though the Fluffal user was relieved that it was over for now, his opponents did not had the same reaction as him. They claimed he, Shay, and Yuto were only delaying the inevitable and how the Void’s perfect world will be created no matter what they do. And with that, they took off and left the Ancient Zone, leaving the trio behind for a little while.

"It's that bad?" Gong asked.

"It is," Yuya answered, his hand still covering his right eye. "I thought what happened with Iggy was just a one-time thing." His other hand clutched his chest, right near his heart. "But now I know there's this...Devil inside me. I just need some time along right now."

He got up from the ground and began walking out of the ruins to find a place for him to be alone. He didn’t care if it was in one of the four Zones; any place to hide from the public was all that mattered to him. They were already terrified when the Void first took over him, so what was the point of being part of this tournament now that he was becoming more certain about getting possessed whenever it feels like?

As he proceeded to leave Ancient Zone, Shay, Yuto, Sora, and Gong felt a mix of worry and sympathy towards Yuya. Why did the Void specifically choose him? They needed to find answers to this and why it wants to Reverse all four dimensions so that he’ll be able to muster up enough courage to save them alongside his friends and allies. Of course, with the increasing number of Reversed Duelists, there’s no telling when another one will appear. They all agreed to help Yuya out while staying clear from as much as they can unless it was absolutely necessary. With that, they all gave Yuya a head start just so he can be by himself leaving Ancient Zone to carry out their plan.

[banshee-king]

New Unit Ideas for Sisters of Battle

If GW ever decide to release the Sisters of Battle (SoB) with an actual updated codex with plastic models and new rules, I would like to see some brand-new units. So, I made a list of ideas that I think would benefit a SoB codex. Do note that these are for 7th ed rules, however the ideas themselves still cross over, I mean meltas aren’t going to become long ranged anti-infantry weapons any time soon, and the SoB theme will still remained unchanged in 8th Ed. Warning, this is a veeery long post.

HQ:

Palatine

This used to be a thing several editions ago, basically a weaker version of the Canoness. The SoB have 3 HQ options in the Imperial Agents Codex, the Canoness, Ministorum priest and Uriah Jacobus (character). They really need more Sisters orientated HQs. A Palatine would be great for smaller armies or for players who want to invest less points in the HQ section. The Palatine would be a weaker Canoness, who herself should probably get a little buff to signify the difference.

Banisher

An idea form the Grey Knights 6th Ed codex that was never seen before or after, the Banisher is someone who’s faith is so strong that they repel daemons. In game terms, they have the Preferred Enemy (Daemons) special rule and cause nearby daemons to re-roll their invul saves. This could be applied to certain SoB who are so strong in their praise to the Emperor that their holy words harm daemons of chaos. They would be famous amongst their sisters, and thus worthy of leading small warbands into battle. The SoB don’t have chaplains, librarians, tech-marines or other sub-HQs that fill a little niche. They need more flavour from their HQs and a Banisher could provide some small amount of variation.

Canoness Veridyan

The SoB need more unique characters; they have two and the Celestine wasn’t even in the Imperial Agents codex. Veridyan already has her own model, she’s known, she’s loved, make her a thing. Give her a page of lore, unique wargear and some rules and she’s good to go. Veridyan seriously needs the least amount of work to do. She’s from the Order of Our Martyred Lady, so that’s 1 out of 6 down at least, and while I’m not sure if making 5 other Canoness characters won’t get repetitive, the SoB need at least 1 canoness character.

Penitent Engine Character

Not a whole lot of walker characters in 40k, which is good because it makes this one unique. I’d personally rather see a range of character types than just 50 shades Canonesses, and a Penitent Engine with special rules and beefed up stats would really be something new. Bjorn the Fell Handed would be the only other similar thing, but with different wargear and rules, it wouldn’t feel like the SoB were copying other factions. They’d retain their own feel, crazy nuns. Penitent Engines are convicts however, so leading an army of SoB might not make the most sense. But if Illic Nightspear can lead a host of Aspect Warriors, Old One Eye can lead Tyranids without having synapse, and a Daemon Herald can lead daemons form another god, well this could probably slide.

Exorcist Tank Commander

This one’s a little less original. Sergeant Chronos/Commander Pask/Longstrike already fill this type of HQ option in other codices. But if the SoB had a unique Exorcist tank instead of just the driver, maybe one that was more reliable than d6 attacks, it would stand out and Exorcists feel different to Leman Russ Tanks/Tau Hammerheads/Predators regardless. Or perhaps it could have a single hard hitting attack option to give it a bit more potential against different enemy types. I’ve heard some people say they think the Exorcist is silly, but it’s iconic to me and the SoB wouldn’t be the same without it.

Troops:

Pilgrims

Perhaps a little controversial choice, but the SoB could probably use some cannon fodder in their army. This unit would undoubtedly have men in it, if it wasn’t going to be 100% male that is. But a unit of civilians picking up pitchforks and torches to fight alongside the warriors of the Ecclesiarchy, it’s quite thematic. This unit could be used to tarpit enemies or provide intervening model cover for the Sisters. Add a priest to the unit and you now have a fearless mosh pit, just like Tyranid gribbles. Some might say adding more men to the SoB is counterproductive, and while I personally feel that men should stay in the SoB codex so that 40k is inclusive and not a tug of war for equality, I can see that there would perhaps be better units to add to the SoB codex than remodelled male cultists.

Elites:

Songbird

This one is a tank that focuses around support. Basically my idea for this is a Laud Hailer on steroids. Sisters nearby could roll all leadership tests with 3 dice, taking the lowest two. You could also give some kind of sonic weapon to this tank, the voices of angels could literally burn the souls of your enemies. Between buffing friendlies and bringing fluff-friendly death to enemies, it could have a versatile role while being unique to 40k. The tank could also be driven by a member of the Order Diologus for added effect. This seems thematic to me, but I’d like to hear other’s opinions. Lastly, if GW wants to save money, the Songbird could be a modification to the Exorcist so they can sell two units in one box, everybody wins.

Fast Attack:

Evangelist Squad

This is similar to the Seraphim Squad but more melee oriented. While it would be easy to say ‘Seraphim with chainswords and plasma pistol upgrades’ like Assault Marines, I would again prefer something more unique. Imagine jump pack Sisters with Power Lances and shields. The base Seraphim already have the Hit & Run special rule, which is perfect for units who have varying attacks on the charge. But if the Evangelists got Furious Charge, they’d be S5 AP3 on the charge (with maybe Hammer of Wrath attacks to boot), and then they’d be S3 AP4 in subsequent turns. That’s not game breaking but it does give the SoB some killing potential. As for the combat shield, that gives a 6+ invul save, which the Seraphim already have. I think I’d rather see it stack to a 5+ invul save then have 2+ armour save jump pack units flying around. Finally, GW could sell a box with both Seraphim & Evangelist units, another two in one. I’m trying to make this seem good for GW so they have more reasons to make it so.

Heavy Support:

Battle Chapel

Surely everyone who plays 40k has seen a picture of a tank with a cathedral or whatever on the top of it… well this is that. Eldar have wraithknights, Tau have Riptides, Space Marines have Land Raiders, and Imperial Guard have Baneblades. Sisters need a vehicle with a lot of dakka. How many bolters/flamers/meltas the thing should get is not really important. What I would like to see is a main big (semi) unique gun on the top that differentiates this tank from Land Raiders/Baneblades. I really want the SoB to be different than just female Space Marines. They deserve better. So they should get something like the Thermal Cannon (from the Imperial Knight Errant). It’s 36” S9 Ap1 Large Blast Melta. The Imperium has the tech already, it’s a melta, it would give the SoB some firepower at semi-long range. It’s a perfect match to me.

Siege Cannon

The SoB are the defenders of the Ecclesiarchy, they protect the shrines, temples, chapels and cathedrals across the Imperium, not just hunt down heretics. They should therefore be pretty good at siege defence, but how can they do that when meltas/flamers are so short ranged? They need a longer ranged weapons and I’m thinking one mounted on tracks like the Rapiers from Forgeworld. These weapons platforms could be equipped with a hurricane bolter, inferno cannon, or maybe a twin-linked melta cannon. That’s a 36” range gun, torrent temple, or a 24” blast respectively. So still not that great in terms of range, but it’s better than what they currently have, certainly better than nothing. Get a squad of three of these and the SoB can really hunker down in cover and defend whatever holy shrine they need.

So that’s it for ideas. I think every one of them, aside from maybe the Songbird, can be found in another codex in some similar varying form. But that’s because it’s incredibly hard to create an idea that is absolutely original in its entirety and is not similar to anything else in any way. Overall I tried to keep the SoB theme intact like their holy trinity of bolter/flamer/melta, and not simply copy units or weapons from other codices like Predators or Terminators or just giving the SoB lascannons. I would love to hear other peoples’ thoughts however. Did you have ideas for SoB units? Were mine trash? Any comments are appreciated.

[batterymonster2021]

Chronic Hazard Advisory Panel: Phthalates Afternoon Session

New Post has been published on https://hititem.kr/chronic-hazard-advisory-panel-phthalates-afternoon-session/

Chronic Hazard Advisory Panel: Phthalates Afternoon Session

>> ok i’d wish to reconvene the chap. And as a first order of trade I suppose we have to talk about our calendars and when we will have the next chap assembly. So Mike, could you’re taking over on that? >> I do not know about you Bern, however my agenda for the autumn, i’m going to be teaching but i’m beautiful flexible. But is that the equal for you? >> Bernard A. Schwetz: i am lovely bendy too, yeah, so I just isn’t a limiting element in when we have this. >> right, good what we need to do is talk to the other individuals of the committee and spot there are distinct dates that they are not able to meet. I think we’re speaking about regularly October, November. >> Late November could be all correct with me. >> Does that imply the fourth of November, or the 1/3 week k? >> The fourth week would be higher.>> Huh? >> that’s what, Thanksgiving. >> Oh. >> Yeah. Yup. Well, November. >> possibly the 15th would work. The week of the 15th. No? >> I could do the week beginning with twenty second of November. >> All right. >> It was once vacation. >> Is. >> typically it can be a nasty time to journey. >> travel, yeah. >> It is one of the busiest days. >> How about the subsequent week? >> Yeah, possible. >> Holger? I am sorry. >> Holger M. Koch: My Outlook just broke down.>> Oh okay. >> Holger M. Koch: just a 2d ago. >> Oh that you could make it your self. >> very good. >> Or seem at Russ. >> the primary week in, well. >> The 29th. >> The 29th, thirtieth, and December 1st time period? >> Chris? >> Chris Gennings: Works for me. I’ve obtained somebody scheduled for a seminar that Friday that I’ve invited, however that could be rescheduled. >> The front end of the week is ok. >> Chris Gennings: Yeah. >> Russ how’s that for you? >> Russell Hauser: excellent. The 6th is out for me, but I might do 1, 2, 3, 1st, 2nd, third, no hindrance.>> Yeah. Holger? Okay. The next choice is do we wish to schedule a two day or three day meeting. Two. Thoughts? Holger. >> Holger Koch: do we plan to ask other company? Have we mentioned that? >> now we have no longer mentioned that but. So. >> Holger Koch: I feel it might be good to renew the invitation to Tom Burg. But other than that I consider, i don’t consider we, i don’t think there may be a have got to invite anybody else at this stage. >> I want to invite an individual who could aid us to interpret the In-Hanes data. Considering that the deeper I get into the In-Hanes data and extrapolating from the bio-monitoring knowledge of the dose, the trouble is that the In-Hanes information is generated after fasting. So i’d have liked to have a person who can mannequin out the fasting interval. And what’s it in phrases of publicity. Since we all know the various delays, on the foot board, and when you’ve got fasting interval of 12, 14 hours. That is a predominant have an effect on on, on the secretion and then of direction in back calculating to the dose.Chris do you believe that you would be able to manage that? Was that test need to do with kinetics and, and. Given that I believe that is going to be a primary point, those calculations. >> Do you may have anybody in mind? >> no longer yet. But it surely’s open for discussion. >> I imply i’m sure Antonia can be inclined to come back up, but you recognize her, she does the analytical phase. The other matters, i am not certain she’s the correct person. But she might be aware of who’s. >> I learn some publications with Rick Stallard; he did some calculations headquartered on together with the fasting period. Rick Stallard. >> that is for the modeling, yeah, he’s more of a statistician. >> competent. >> Yeah. >> When is the date? The question of whether it can be a two day meeting or instead of that, then that question of when it’s. Higher nail a type of down before we get more matters on the desk. >> k. >> i might recommend we’ve got a two day assembly and explore the agenda and then if it desires, if it may be quality, if it needs to be three high-quality.However let’s as a default for a two day assembly. Okay. Mike where’d you arrive in terms of dates? >> Mike: ok. I had the options of member somewhere between November 29th and December third, with the, I believe the caveat that the twenty ninth shouldn’t be a whats up, or the twenty eighth is not a good travel day. >> correct. >> The ninth, was it the Tuesday used to be the thirtieth? >> Chris Gennings: So we need to think concerning the 1st as being the primary day of. >> the first is the first day of Hanukah. Which, it’s not a religious holiday, but just with babies. Just for me. However that, I, I would come if I needed to. >> Why, why do not we are saying the 2nd and 3rd then? >> yes. >> Rick.>> that is k. >> but that suggests flying on the first. Ok. >> ok. I guess the Hanukah’s the night of the 1st? >> sure the 1st. >> Does this imply chaos for us worldwide travelers? >> Or are we the 2nd to 3rd? >> Yeah. >> even as we’re at the side of calendars should we explore and alternate to that in case we need on? >> We would try this. >> We’re getting closer by means of the tip 12 months which is not a excellent time. Proper. Okay. >> The 13th would be viable as a fall again, however i might pick the date we agreed on first.>> That stands out as the first option, however i am simply watching for a again up in case we’d like it. >> definite. Week of the thirteenth? >> Yeah. >> The 13th, 14th would be, as a fall again. >> Yeah. >> thirteen, 14? >> you know while you. >> The 13th and 14th is just not going to work for every body. >> No. >> good I suppose that going the following week we’re getting too virtually the holiday. So let’s go into January. >> Andreas is not to be had. >> ok. >> January. >> January. January is beautiful open for me. Besides for the 24th and twenty fifth, a further veteran agent orange in California. In order that week would not be just right for me, the twenty fourth. >> How concerning the week of the 10th? >> excellent.>> Chris Gennings: now not excellent for me sorry. >> . It’s nice with me. >> When, when is? Ok be we don’t have the constructing. 18th, Holger, Chris, Russ? Ok, January 18th, 19th as an alternative. >> That work okay? >> 18 yeah. I think that, it can be the 17th so. >> January, are you going to go to that? Yeah. >> Yeah usually. >> i don’t, I didn’t be aware of that they had set a date. K that, that’s just right. It can be SVOC’s.So it involves and likewise flame retardants and other that you in finding in house dust and window film. So it can be informative. >> ok, so now we have got dates December 2 through three as a important, and January 18th and nineteenth as an alternative is December dates don’t work. >> k. >> Then Mike, you are going to work with the EPA in phrases of fall work shop on. >> Mike: Yeah now it was once January 18th to 19th because the backup? >> sure. >> Mike: k. I will coordinate with the EPA. The so are viable dates, we do need to invite again Tom Burke. Probably. >> For an additional agenda object, knowledge that we did not get the day prior to this, seeing that we proceed to struggle with this question of the place does it come from in food, and we did not have the food center with us the previous day appears as if we should both. Perhaps first alternative is to ask them to provide a written abstract, a desk for us that will be effectively understood about what the levels are. And what the FDA assumes is the supply of in those foods the place it’s measurable. 2d alternative to have a person come and talk to us next time.If they could get these data to us now it could be worthy to us to feel through what we wish as a substitute than reply to it for the first time in December. >> I believe, you know, the answer is that what they, if they have knowledge it can be often not. >> it would be necessary to grasp additionally what are their plans for gathering extra data. Proper. >> and in addition there was once a question raised, the offer was raised the day gone by whether or not we need to be aware of whatever more distinctive about medicinal drugs. >> correct, and. >> by, by using type, by agent, composition, through , by using age of patient. >> And that was once normally for diethyl valley too. Good most of their information are diethyl; I mean I think they stated they’ve one. >> last dibutal, after which the supplements and the . I mean that is the one of a kind a part of the FDA i suppose, or a different part of the federal government.But. >> Is there any purpose why it will be on account that of the compounding of the tablet? >> I think Helga you, you will have German data proper, on. >> Holgar Koch: I could provide for the subsequent meeting the info from Germany in which drugs, tribunal and are. I wouldn’t have any information on the meals supplements. But in all probability, it’s possible that that is there too. So I believe we should really pinpoint it to prescription medicinal drugs, over-the-counter medications and meals supplements. And within the mild of the truth that the info from In Hanes is from the years 2003 and 2004, i would be interested in the late containing drugs at that time too. Since we might need this expertise for interpreting the information. Considering the fact that there are a couple of publications hyperlink hello dibutal exposures to the usage of medicine. >> Yeah and we, we had released on using the In Hanes knowledge. Utilising the urinary levels and self reportive medication use. And it was, most, I feel it was once 2003, 2004, yeah. >> In Hanes it was two to three, or, i’ll, i’ll verify. But. >> From the fourth document is 2003 to 2004. That’s the. >> Three to four. That is the, however i’m going to investigate. >> dates. >> And are we in a position to tell Abby and Steven precisely how, what kind we would like the data, like age corporations or something, or do we wish, we could continue to feel about that? >> It was the experience from the rest of you that what they needed to do used to be generate these knowledge? Or is it a matter of what they ship us? >> No I consider it is an information base they usually could summarize it in many distinctive ways. So. >> To be honest I needed to appear into this database, one of the information, it didn’t help me much but. >> Yeah I, but, I suppose they’ve extra information, they’ll have more understanding then is in the public database. And so they might, you already know classification matters by form of drug or some thing like that. I believe that’s the. I think that is the difference.>> I think without seeing anything of what they, it can be difficult what to ask for. At the least from my point of view. So I mean I would take a, take a stab at, you realize if we ask them to stratify it via age and with the aid of gender or anything like that. >> Yeah, just so we get to peer what they have. >> Yeah. >> Are we assuming that they might give us a urine knowledge as good as blood data? >> Now you, we’re talking about In Hanes. >> Oh yeah, i’m sorry. >> The FDA, or the medicines. Drugs we’re speaking about what’s within the components. >> Oh so it’s just publicity. As a. >> proper, correct. >> A particular point for exposure. >> it could be the variety of situation situated exposure.In Hanes we’re speakme about it’s practically, I think it can be all. And i am not, well anyway i’m now not certain, I have no idea for exact that FDA can go back to 2003 but they customarily can. >> Age, gender and 12 months, some thing like that. >> Yeah. >> k so we’ve, is that the whole lot that we suppose we want for the following meeting? Might be. >> good i’ll ask about pesticides. Despite the fact that it, there will not be. I suppose like plenty of things, the whole lot’s being reformulated. But i will ask that a part of EPA. >> Holgar did you have got another? >> Holgar Koch: I used to be, it used to be a separate subject, however concerning the choices to get more knowledge. >> sure. >> Holgar Koch: Jay has, I imply if there is more know-how.>> good I believe, I mean I consider we now have what there is. The Versa report and the Nick, there is a Nick Nash report, which i’ll ensure, if I did not send it to you i will ensure you get it. >> and then back to Holgar’s advice about Rick Stallard. I believe Rick might at least reward the information from his paper. I mean he would do it reasonably rapidly I suppose in 20 minutes. But in phrases of anybody within the subject of formal kinetics, I can not consider of any individual with close . I imply there is quite a few people that have completed this with dioxins or pesticides, other chemical substances.I might feel that it’s the same concepts that they could observe. >> Holger Koch: i have a just right working relationship with Med Lober from USEB. He’s residing around the nook. He has experience and i believe he could provide us a bit of introduction to the, to the drawback. I believe it’s, it’s the quandary of In Hanes with the fasting. We have now the information generated after fasting is a important quandary we ought to talk about. What’s the have an impact on of fasting, on publicity to none persistent chemicals? That are usually food born. >> And primarily for DDHP and the. >> And the high . >> Do, are they normally take the samples after fasting? >> Requirement. They’re asked to rapid. I believe its in a single day.And people seen within the afternoon I feel its six hours as a minimum. >> Chris Gennings: Is there a variable that describes how lengthy they quick then? I do not suppose I’ve ever appeared. There may be? >> nevertheless it’s, it’s in the questionnaire. >> In that’s, I mean is that because they’re gathering lots of other matters, like cholesterol and, yeah, geez. So that, you know, could good, well underestimate the contribution from food which is gigantic. >> Chris Gennings: the place on your paper you’ve got bought some best graphs displaying phases shedding with 48 hour fasting, correct? So I mean cannot. >> They considerably drop after 12 hours of fasting. >> Yeah. >> however i’m no longer the knowledgeable in interpret this knowledge for the whole populace. >> Chris Gennings: but the graphs that you’ve got bought to your paper might be priceless in, to model it because the point.>> you should utilize the entire graphs removal kinetics from the experiments, and the fasting graphs are the same. So there is the info, it is out of it it simply desires anyone with, with farmaco kinetics toxicol kinetic historical past to model this into the In Hanes population. So the names that come to my mind. >> It seems to me that’s a, that is a research venture. >> i would not make it that tricky, do you think it is that elaborate, Russ? >> Russ: it can be but i do not consider it needs to be. >> okay. >> i admire things easy. >> Russ: probably, you recognize whether or not the levels are 20 percentage shrink than you can anticipate since of fasting are 50 percentage. I imply more of a range i’d believe. >> So yeah, I mean you’re speakme about correcting for them, or just assessing the have an effect on? >> You must proper for it.Good if you’re in a fasting window of 12 to 24 hours, it’s a dramatic correction. >> And surely six is, you already know in a technique it can be worse due to the fact it can be somewhere in between, and however the slope is on the whole . >> I suppose this can be a foremost quandary that has most of the time to be mentioned related to more advantageous data. >> And frequently most knowledge, since i know most studies probably don’t collect that knowledge. You understand when was once the last time you ate some thing with the spot urine samples? >> you understand from the German environmental survey there’s no fasting period. That’s the main change between the German data from the environmental survey and from In Hanes. >> Chris Gennings: would we strategy it style of in a two, in a tiered degree.One being a type of a simplified process where we simply do some corrections established on the info that you’ve got bought in your paper, after which, and then get perhaps a person perhaps extra of an talents of farmaco kinetics that may evaluate how close or a long way off that straightforward. >> My factor with that possibly a undertaking was once simply i will rephrase this and ask do you consider that if we confront Matt Lobo with that that he can do it as a part of a presentation for us? >> i might think that will be possible. Possibly in conjunction with Rick’s expertise. Or with, with the expertise he made. >> right, yeah, i might believe you would examine it with Rick Stallard. Yeah. >> I feel it will be a high-quality suggestion.>> that is something that might be finished earlier than our subsequent assembly. >> comprehensive after which presented at the next meeting, or? >> yes. >> Yeah. So. >> So we would have to technique these two entry researchers. >> So we would want both. >> Matt Lobo and wealthy Stallard. >> it is Stalhart. >> I have no idea. >> Yeah. The place’s Rick? >> institution of Rochester with Shawna. >> Oh. >> i will want Holgar to support me give an explanation for to them what it is we wish, or maybe have you ever do it. >> Holgar Koch: They, they both of them perfectly comprehend the challenge. They will understand what you are speakme about. >> What we’re asking is how you can adjust or at least to provide an explanation for challenge. >> I feel Rick can be in a position to provide an explanation for the limitation, and than Matt in phrases of regulate or what variety of magnitude of the differences may just make. Yeah. >> Chris Gennings: i admire Andreas’ factor. If we might get them to absolutely do it and not just speak about it.>> Yeah. >> Chris Gennings: And gift this. >> good. >> really I would love to have a compilation as Russ mentioned it, of which of the reports in our focal point are centered on, or are collected after fasting, and which now not. And it can be very intricate to, to find this in the materials, math substances description. So irregarding it just got here to my intellect a couple of, to my awareness a couple of months in the past. As I believe it slipped the attention of many of the researchers in this field. And as you recounted it, Mike, like the various stories are initiated to get scientific parameters. And they’re no, you get them after fasting. >> I imply we do, kit Carlson my colleague here is attempting to keep monitor of the exclusive reviews and i have no idea if he is aware of that however probably he might discover what the procedures are within the specific reviews around the world. Yeah I mean you realize what the German gain knowledge of is doing, but i will ask him if he is aware of about, something concerning the.Since I believe once these matters begin, they have a tendency to sort of comply with methodology clever, they have an inclination to comply with one an additional. >> On a broader obstacle, I think we need to discuss are we going to do a chance assessment, what form of chance comparison are we going to do? Are we going to do it as a committee, or are we going to ask anybody external to do that and furnish it to us? Because i am somewhat bit unclear as to what our direction is to finishing our cost. >> Yeah. I mean if you’re talking about how the chap operates, the proposal is for the panel to do it, even though it is usually possible to get help with some specified things, targeted steps or anything so long as it’s executed to your requirements. That is allowed. But frequently it’ll be the panels, it should be the panels risk comparison. Now as far as operationally what to do and what to include, I mean that is up for dialogue I believe.You realize the nuts and bolts of, of doing it. However I feel the expectation, I imply it is the risk comparison. And. >> again, not being my subject, i am. >> Yeah. >> I is also asking some. >> well no this. >> Unintelligent questions right here. >> this is you already know other committees may, I imply I have no idea exactly how they work, however i know they contract out quite a few fabric. Quite a lot of the work. And that is just a little bit distinctive. That is no longer how the chaps had been carried out prior to now, but of direction given the dimensions of the challenge we will get as so much support as we are able to. >> good let me attempt to make my questions just a little bit more unique. EPA is going to have a workshop had been they’ll be looking at . >> Yeah. >> And they are going to do accumulative chance assessment. >> ultimately. >> eventually. I think this risk evaluation, or this workshop goes to be simply to listen to to discuss and to listen to from like we did the day prior to this, learn how to go about it. What are the end points and all the identical stuff, all it talks about the day before today. >> Yeah. >> The matters that we discovered quite a bit yesterday but I suppose the, we have to sit down and say you recognize that is in, this is out.We will do it this way, no longer that manner. But my point is that eventually they are going to do what we, I suppose, are being requested to do. >> What they’re, what the EPA Iris software is going to do is well they are sort of in, in new territory. Given that quite often Iris does, they do the hazard identification in the dose response comparison. And of direction we’re doing the entire thing, that’s the change between us and Iris. At EPA any individual else, you already know, they do this and then other men and women take the Iris and, they usually’re Iris record might be utilized to many distinctive threat assessments. >> however can i expect effectively that given the EPA has gotten smaller an NAS panel to inform them you already know chance evaluation in 2010, that is been published.>> Yeah. >> That that is what finally they are going to do. >> I consider without doubt. I mean why, I mean I feel it’s an excellent file. >> sure. >> And it is pretty clear, I mean not that I understand the entire subtleties nevertheless it’s beautiful clear what the course is. >> sure. So my question is, if that’s what they will do, is that what we should do? In different phrases is that the state-of-the-art? >> good I consider that document is, it’s the state of the art for Valley Syndrome effects. >> can i simply, I think it would aid at this stage to if we turn once more to the chart and the regulation of abridge 26 and 27 of the unofficial compilation.>> Yeah. >> What, what it says there in my, well it is more commonly open to dialogue, but i might say that what we’re charged with, and B examination does now not always imply that we ought to do a risk evaluation within the feel of a threat characterization according to the silver publication. >> correct. >> What it says is, is we’re purported to compare the entire capabilities wellness effects.Now I think it can be slightly open to interpretation what exactly does that imply. However I read into this that this isn’t always a full blow hazard assessment in the sense of threat characterization where you first recollect exposures, then map it in opposition to assumed secure phases after which come to a choice are we now in deserving now that the purple light starts offevolved to flicker or now not. You see what I imply? >> well I agree, it can be a determination, I consider it is a resolution factor that chap has to make as to whether to focus on those syndrome, or to really go the, the space on all of those different, or other finish points past that. >> No, no. I think we misunderstand every different. >> Yeah. >> What i’m pronouncing is, I think without doubt what we are purported to do, how I interpret these below B what is listed within the legislation, we undoubtedly need to do what i might call, and what’s on the whole referred to as a hazard comparison.>> proper, proper. >> however now not necessarily a hazard evaluation. >> correct, and, and that is what i’m looking to say. I consider that, well the important thing word it’s no longer necessarily. And that i suppose that chap has to come to a decision. >> Yeah, yeah. >> whether or not you do the quantitative on multiple finish features or just the one. I mean that is your decision. >> Now even, even though say we made up our minds on a important end factor shall we say, hypothetically of syndrome. >> Yeah.>> I, what I read here, i do not always appreciate to mean that even for the syndrome we have got to do a full hazard characterization within the sense of a risk evaluation. In other words, seeing that exposure first, then on the grounds that hazards, after which come to a conclusion about risks, even as we ought to be clear about the language right here, some folks comprehend when matters by way of chance assessment and chance characterization. However I consider that’s my individual interpretation, please proper me, possibly we ought to come to contract right here now. I learn this to mean some thing with an emphasis on hazard comparison, definitely. >> Yeah. >> We also have to look at publicity so there is a quantity, what was once it, sure quantity three. >> Yeah. >> take into account the stages likely in youngsters, and so forth., and so forth. >> Yeah. >> but I consider i might ask the panel to don’t forget whether they, whether or not you see, whether or not you interpret whatever written down here to intend a threat evaluation or a threat characterization by means of you compare quantitative stages, dosages, exposures, related to special hazards, after which make the comparisons with exposures. >> Yeah and that is why I brought up this dialogue, given that i do not think we’ve got resolved, as a minimum i have not in my mind with how we’ll go on this.And it seems to me that we, that’s a significant decision we have to make up since if we go, we are saying we must do a quantitative cumulative risk assessment. Then do we’ve got the capabilities to try this is the subsequent question. So I think we ought to resolve what it is we are going to do and also have a justification for that. >> Chris Gennings: So. >> for the reason that it appears to me the state of the art, I could also be unsuitable since this is not my discipline, is that silver guide, in terms of do the varieties of matters that we.>> Or the quite more like, I suppose, the blue inexperienced guide. In our, the. >> Yeah or that one. >> The one yeah. >> Chris Gennings: am i able to simply ask a point of clarification? So Andreas are you announcing, i am considering again to the court and camp speedy paper offered to us at our last assembly. Where are you relative to what that approach that you have in that paper? Are you pronouncing that is the method you don’t believe we ought to do? I am not sure i do know what you are pronouncing? >> Andreas Kortenkamp: sure that is what i’m pronouncing, yeah.>> Chris Gennings: You think we don’t need it. >> Andreas Kortenkamp: No. What, what we did there in the court and camp fast paper is an awfully crude, first technique at some style of danger assessment, cumulative hazard comparison. What this paper does greater than something is highlight the talents gaps. And normally maps out a viable modus apperandi very crude there are possible choices that wants to be subtle. But I see nothing in these, underneath B examination here, that may advise that you simply will have to carry out .I feel the emphasis, that’s my interpretation, is more on hazard comparison. >> Chris Gennings: What do you imply by hazard evaluation? >> Andreas Kortenkamp: well it can be the average, the ordinary triple jump. In danger evaluation you appear at publicity you seem at hazards of chemical substances, and then you definately put it collectively and carry out what’s known as a hazard evaluation or risk characterization by way of comparing, by means of asking the query having established a level quantitatively of a chemical what we consider it isn’t risk-free anymore. And then you definitely ask it to do current exposures exceed that or come close it. Sure or no. And that is called danger comparison. I do not believe we must do that last step. I suppose we should talk about that. >> Yeah. Good I feel, I consider it’s implied. It does not say it explicitly, however I suppose it’s implied. >> Andreas how about number four below there, recall the cumulative effect of the complete publicity. I imply how, how would you try this or else? >> Andreas Kortenkamp: yes I suppose that’s, that is a factor. Good it says take into account, well, here. Of path we are able to do not forget, however yeah I think that’s, good sure.We need to come to an agreement there. I think it is open to interpretation. >> Our consideration there could be a suggestion and encouragement the EPA would proceed with an accumulative danger comparison of . That probably conscious of that, simply without difficulty to say that with out the necessity for us to do it ourselves. I would like to proceed what Andreas has prompted us to think about. I feel that’s something that we have got to have this dialogue or we will be able to proceed to acquire information and now not be aware of what we’ll do with it, with the probability that we will become collecting knowledge that we do not definitely ought to reply the particular questions. And we will not have the understanding that it does take to reply the query. So my inspiration was once to step forward and seem in particular at what CPSC has requested us to handle. And in addition to this, there was once a request for us to have some recommendation on what to do with these which have already been banned, briefly. And will have to that be accelerated or should it be dropped. What about different , and what about possible choices? Should there be some thing else banned? Should there be some restrictions that we would propose versus banning? So i’d use that as an extraordinarily designated request the CPSC has made to us.And if we do not reply that and we reply various different stuff, they may consider that they failed to get from us what they relatively requested us for. So watching, if we will comply with the interpretation of mainly what Mike has told us about these banned and unbanned , I believe that leads to a discussion of what can we have to have in hand to be ready to reply that detailed question. And if cumulative danger comparison is required to do that, which i do not believe it is, then we’d must try this. Or we would defer to EPA, given that they are mostly going to do it anyhow. At the risk of two of us doing it is that they’re going to no longer agree. That might be unhealthy for regulators. >> good I consider we do not have to agree.And it also is determined by what the disagreements are and why. >> yes, surely. >> however I consider, you realize, you made the factor the other day, the bottom line is that we’re asking the chap (a) shall learn blah, blah, blah, make suggestions to the commission involving any or combos in addition to these identified in subsection A. Or choices that will have to be declared banned has materials. In different words, is just not in a few of these equal children’s merchandise.After which a little farther down I believe based on that, the staff additionally has to come to a decision whether to make the meantime band everlasting. >> So if we can work from those certain question and back away somewhat bit and Richard do we ought to reply these precise questions. Then we at the least are being attentive to the rather slender question that they’ve asked of us. After which if we want to deal with matters which are out on the threshold of that that need to do with more commonly, or different associated disorders which can be might be adjacent to the unique ones the CPSC has requested us to handle. We are able to do this if we wish and if we have time.If we now have the understanding. But my recommendation is that we are able to, I just like the hazard assessment technique, might be considering that that’s what i have performed in my profession as opposed to the extra distinct modeling. And i’m not towards modeling if that’s how you can go. But I consider we are able to maybe reply these questions by way of a hazard assessment strategy and probably the data, I mean we now have finished this, we have done hazard assessments with less data than are on hand on . So I think it is practicable. And i consider if we can reach agreement beginning from the top factor and dealing back just a little bit, we will be more effective in being able to get this achieved. >> well if we simply focus on the thalaids which can be presently banned, I imply is is reliable to expect, and i have no idea this field that these weren’t banned on the foundation of accumulative threat comparison? Right.>> Yeah. >> It was once, they were banned on the hazard assessment process that you are speaking about. Is that right? >> I consider most of the time it. I imply I, there was once no cumulative threat evaluation per se. I suppose they had been involved about cumulative effects. >> Chris Gennings: i might ask if we might be somewhat more unique. I think you guys are making use of phrases and i’m not sure of the glory. If i am being I apologize.However the hazard evaluation as opposed to hazard evaluation, i don’t, I do not know precisely what you’re announcing. If any one, if both Bern or could be extra targeted it could aid me so much. >> Yeah what are, what are the steps that we’d take to head and. >> Chris Gennings: And in distinct. >> And in exact with the three which might be band stay banned. What would we do? >> Chris Gennings: And in particular, i would like to listen to relative to what I understand Andres, and Andreas, sorry and paper relative to that, what’s on the desk or off the table from that. >> exactly. >> Andreas Kortenkamp: I wholly believe what Brian just stated. We, I think that’s the backside line we, let’s work backwards and ask the question what variety of know-how do we want in answer to meet the charges. And what would be very helpful and you stated it already could be to get expertise about what standards were used with a view to come to the resolution to 3 ones in the legislation. Is that documented somewhere? What criteria were used. >> i do not feel it’s that well documented. I think that’s the concern.I believe that the european band is, there is a little rationalization in the documents. But in ours there is not, the legislation itself doesn’t quite have the justification. And there is, so far as i do know, there is now not so much of a written history of how and why matters have been achieved. >> Andreas Kortenkamp: k if that’s now not the case then, I believe we will have to, a primary step would be for us to think of standards that will support a resolution to band anything. However I do not know what they’re but I suppose we should be clear about them. And secondly in answer to your points, Chris, i am also competent the terminology and use of phrases on this subject is in many instances a little bit confusing, and i would strongly endorse, for the reason that we’re working in america to comply with the terminology utilized by NRC and commencing with the crimson guide, ending with the silver guide.That, shall we agree on that? These terms are very evidently outlined within the silver guide. I mean we can take the silver booklet. It goes again and explains the whole historical past of how they strengthen this entire danger assessment framework and the terms they use. Shall we agree on that for simplicity? >> undoubtedly believe that. >> I believe for my enlightenment and probably Chris as well, if one in all you might define mainly phrases what the system is. That would be useful to me. Ok. >> Andreas Kortenkamp: i will need to cross over to a few of my colleagues here. However regularly the, and that’s terribly foremost and more often than not uncared for and i believe that is what we must apply ourselves here to. The system starts with a state of predicament method, and defining the context. And i think we’re about to try this and we’re very close to that. So that step is so most important.It then asks outlined already. That helps us to make a decision what sort of information can we truly want. So we have to define the context and the drawback. I do not think that should be very complex. After which the core of hazard comparison or threat characterization starts offevolved with publicity evaluation, and Olga, for example is an trained there. It asks the question what are, what are possible exposures to the chemical viewed. This will likely differ in step with population, subgroups A, and so on., and so on. But it clearly asks that. In parallel, a system goes on which is handiest known as hazard assessment. It asks the query what knowledge do we’ve to begin with on the result profile produced with the aid of the chemical in query.Yeah. We have already additionally considered section, you realize . All of the finish points. What’s going down. And secondly it asks the question, is there quantitative dose response expertise available for any of those finish facets. And if ye, it then, if feasible concludes with the approach whereby risks associated with unique exposures or dosages are quantified. So that is that box. So publicity assessment, hazard comparison, goes on in parallel. Then the step of risk comparison, or chance characterization is to unit these two steps through asking the question are the phases that we’ve got founded as more likely to occur by way of exposure evaluation.Are they attaining a zone which the hazard comparison tells us is associated with danger. >> Chris Gennings: All this must be carried out in phrases of a blend not a single chemical. >> Andreas Kortenkamp: sure that is all a different problem, but there are, there are methods of doing this. Systems had been mapped out how to do this. >> Yeah. I mean in, in a sense, if you’re going to do combinations, you sort of might in every single place. I imply do a hazard identification for the members, however then for the combos. And does response the place the contributors and then for the combinations. So it can be, it complicates it that rather more. >> Chris Gennings: So Andreas you wouldn’t support us utilising a hazard index strategy? >> Andreas Kortenkamp: A hazard index or some thing is far too specified an technique. I mean that is only one manner of, of doing accumulative threat comparison. There are others. But let’s no longer get too hung up a few hazard index approach or not at this stage. >> Chris Gennings: i am sorry to keep pushing you, but why now not? It helps me if i will think through these varieties of steps. What are we going to, when we talk about data, what are we going to do with the info? We hold speaking about bio monitoring studies.Trying to, and that i was considering of mixing non-atmosphere knowledge into… >> Andreas Kortenkamp: No I suppose I consider Bern. What Bern says if we have to be clear what, what we’re, what we’re aiming for. And my feeling is that so as to reach decisions about continuation of prohibitions and bands. I’m no longer certain we have to get quantitative and let on my own recover from complex with mixtures, threat assessments or cumulative risk assessments. That’s my opinion, however we should don’t forget that first and in order to simplify for the reason that in any other case, as Bern mentioned we end up in a difficulty of having assembled info which then we appreciate that a letter stated we don’t need in any respect. >> Am I proper then in this strategy you’ve outlined, if, if Holger have been to convince us that cumulatively we had been being uncovered to at least one milligram per kilogram pre day of and we know from animal knowledge that three milligrams per day, kilogram per day factors an opposed impact. Then we’d follow some element to claim that that is close adequate to the animal knowledge that tells us that it can be antagonistic that we will say this is a situation in people.>> And yeah that is a method but i would say that’s already very quantitative and possibly difficult. I imply in my intellect, mix cumulative hazard comparison. Would to begin with begin questions reminiscent of what’s the proof that coexposure to a couple of actually qualitative exacerbates hazard. You don’t have to be too quantitative. You ask questions in what direction would this possible move a dose response for an person . Questions like this. With no need to be too quantitative at this stage. Or similarly, what is the probably expected outcome of , and many others. >> Chris Gennings: but is it that type of strategy primary, possibly probably the predominant when it can be the, when you’re in the procedure of attempting together information. So in case you do not have to exit and get the quantitative information then you could asking qualitative questions. After which along the way in which decide sure we must go additional, or no we don’t have got to go additional.But I consider we’re competent the place we now have visible various data. And we’ve it at our fingertips already. >> Yeah. >> Chris Gennings: So i’d recommend that we go ahead and consider about more of a quantitative technique. >> Whoa, whoa, I consider steady, steady. In view that why would you, why would you want quantitative knowledge on something very complicated cumulative danger evaluation. If the query is to decide whether we’re to, whether we are of the opinion that the prevailing band on particular must be persevered or not. In my intellect you don’t need this know-how. In my mind what you need with a purpose to reply these question is a hazard evaluation. >> i suppose the trouble will get again to what do you mean by way of that, by using hazard assessment.Due to the fact that i don’t rather follow how you might do that in a qualitative feel simplest. Come to the conclusion that whatever is, on account that to me that virtually implied that there needs to be some quantitative facet of that. Am I mistaken? >> well I see it that method. Or path that is what I do. However. >> however the hazard comparison has quantitative facets. Does response analysis. >> when you do dose response then you’re relocating past just the hazard assessment, I feel. >> okay that is a terminology drawback. In step with the silver ebook you, I think we should look at that and. >> Yeah. But well, if believe we did a, the most simple minded variety of a quantitative evaluation? Not fear too much about you realize advancing the state of the art.Making use of the principles, applying the concepts in the, the NRC report on . ABE limiting it handiest the syndrome effects, for starters as a minimum. Is, is that conceivable? >> Of path, of course. But here is a concept which, which i might like to place to your for dialogue. Possibly that makes it clear. Individually it is extremely troublesome to aid the determination for or against the band by means of doing a full blown danger characterization, hazard assessment.The concern is this. Holger has very eloquently told us about these substitution procedures. So good exposures to are, they are like moving gold posts. There is already, we’re wholly aware of this. A substitution method happening. Given that choices are made via industry to restrict the use of special which regard us complex are for some thing cause, and there is a transfer towards others. So for example, hypothetically, as a result of this process a hazard assessment for DEHP could conclude that since the present publicity phases have gone down that the hazard because of DEHP is now, i am making up an instance, negligible.Right. >>correct. >> Then if you wish to use that effect of a risk characterization, risk evaluation procedure, that might be average. So if you want to use that to now as a criterion to select a ban or not, you can also end up in a very absurd predicament. Then you definately make a decision k, currently nothing to worry from DEHP. The reaction to that and so then hypothetically you would argue no have to band DEHP. If this happens, then there will likely be a substitution process occurring in the different direction.>> proper. >> we can then see it extra to DEHP. And then in he future you would to find yourself confronted with a obstacle, ah ha, now exposure to DEHP are so high they may be getting us into the zone of attributable dangers, hypothetically. >> correct. And i think that. >> So I conclude from that that a full blown hazard comparison is unsuitable as a basis to come to a decision for or in opposition to the band. It has to be situated on the hazard comparison. Does that make experience? >> Chris Gennings: however could not a risk evaluation inform a hazard assessment inform a hazard evaluation. In different words, I have an understanding of what you are pronouncing, there may be a moving target in terms of the exposure levels of those chemicals. And we ordinarily might even gain knowledge of that in In Hanes if we had the opportunity to look from 12 months to yr to year, right. But we might additionally , make up, I should not say make up, however take into account eventualities the place we say ok now if DEHP clearly did expand via 20 percent, then this is where you’re.We would remember it in numerous one-of-a-kind cases. >> correct, or one thing I’ve completed is for those who, you understand, flip back the clock to a unique data and say well you know when this whole trade started, you are darn correct, you wouldn’t, you could definitely ban this chemical and also you wouldn’t need to change it. I imply there is methods to deal with all of the relocating target predicament. I consider that is a, in comparison with the opposite disorders, no longer insurmountable.However. >> i know, i know. However it helps us. >> Yeah. >> reply the question in step with Bern, which Bern, Bern contact has introduced up. What sort of expertise do you want? If for illustration, contemplate this a little more, then it instantly turns into clear that for these discussions we are not looking for publicity data. >> well the. >> There are other, there are other facets here in the chart the place. >> Yeah. >> We do want exported knowledge. However as a way to argue for or in opposition to a ban of designated , we do not want publicity information. >> well it. >> We ought to have the . >> however when you say publicity knowledge, do you mean like bio monitoring knowledge, or do you mean hypothetically like for instance, we’ve got data migration from the merchandise. And so you might say you understand given the identified toxicity traits, and this amount of publicity it could be below any stage of trouble or above.And asses the choices that approach. So you understand it, if a detailed alternative say failed to migrate, it would have a better toxicity, if it migrated so much it might have got to have a a lot minimize toxicity. But I mean you are, you elevate good features, and it’s, however you are right, I think we have got to form of believe through what are the steps that we wish to do to answer these special questions.And what can we have to do, what will we want to do, or and what do we do. >> Yeah and i am just questioning Andreas starting this off of the beginning gate right here. I am an awfully visible learner, so I must see matters. >> Yeah. >> To particularly analyze and digest. Wouldn’t it support us if you were to make use of the procedure you will have been speakme about with relationship to the three that have been banned. And go by way of your approach. And so us, , what that would lead us to.That way we might say that is, oh yeah. >> Oh yeah, i am being put on the spot. I can, I have no idea. I can do this. However that is why I asked is there documentation of the determination making method, what standards we’re used to reach at the determination to band the three and the regulation. Yeah and i don’t consider there may be lots. Well Phil. >> Go ahead. >> receive that’s priceless. >> Ann Clauson: Ann Clauson with Latham and Watkins.In 2005 there was once legislation in the european which seemed very much the equal. It put a traditionally permanent, good not on any of them, was it permanent. However it was a fuller ban on the three curb molecular way. After which period in-between sort band on the higher moleculades. It did provide for a reassessment of that, which is going down right now. With reference to the better molecular weight, in particular DINP and DIDP. They had additionally completed risk assessments that confirmed no chance.But they determined t go forward with the laws and explicitly recounted that was on the groundwork of the precautionary principle. After that used to be passed, California handed legislation that was once explicitly modeled on the european. And the legislature did no variety of hazard assessment. They only picked up on what the european had achieved. When the CPSIA was being promulgated, Senator Feinstein from California desired the brought to the CPSIA on the identical foundation that it used to be in California.So once more it was delivered to the laws, fairly as a political process with no sort of hazard comparison explicitly accomplished via the legislators. >> And it can be, thank you. I am of the approach. I don’t know that there’s a written document that we might refer to. It can be for me at the least, it’s 2nd hand know-how, 0.33 hand, fourth, whatever. However that is my working out of the approach. But there wasn’t a, you understand it’s not like a proper rule making the place you do a hazard assessment and many others. There were hazard assessments carried out within the european.And it can be controversial, the don’t necessarily, they did not always support the band, the ecu ban. I think the european ban was once extra of a precautionary, as they name it within the eu, if you’re no longer sure ban it variety of procedure. And that i feel something after that effectively mirrored what was once in the European, or roughly mirrored what was once in the European ban. And the, as a part of this, they mentioned oh well we’ll have a chap. And the chap is to, used to be kind of a multiply motive to appear at the fee possible choices and also to do the exact hazard on the three intervening time ban ones.Or weigh in on the three intervening time ban ones, and to do the danger assessment. I mean I, i do not believe any individual would argue with the three permanently banned ones. Good, there isn’t a danger assessment partly, due to the fact they weren’t rather being used. I consider that in he ecu ban they stated we did the, put the three permanently ban, now not a lot considering that they were being used, however since we didn’t want them to become substitutes. It was once a pre emptive act. You realize the other three, the meantime unhealthy one it’s, you already know we’re now not, it’s now not so clear you already know.The INP is, may match in the syndrome category. But it’s weaker. The opposite two, I ‘m no longer so certain i don’t consider there is any robust proof that they cause the syndrome so you know those, they’re in variety of an in between class. So for us they ended up as a, as an meantime ban. And they speak about this a bit of bit in the European record which is on your CD, but i’ll make certain you’ll find it if you want to read what’s there.But that is that. I imply the, i suppose the reply to all of the, one of the crucial questions you recognize why are you doing this this way. Why is Congress doing it this way. I mean the chap is to answer some of these questions. >>sure thank you very much for these explanations. But I consider it could be slightly unfair to summarize the precautionary essential as utilized in the european by using if you’re not sure ban it’s more like that. >> If we did it, if we did this fashion, we might have chemical compounds. >> we are going to train the jury to ignore that remark.But having said that, if we are able to find that being, if we find that the standards used are let’s assume a bit imprecise then i would believe it would be one in all our key tasks to reflect just a little on these standards that we undoubtedly obvious. And a good way to could be the three that are banned already and to reflect, consider standards and arguments which we suppose would aid and justify that with the aim of applying it to the others. And then see the place we turn out to be. Is that a practicable way forward? I think we will have got to be transparent and clear. >> sure. >> With standards. >> Is, Bern you had a comment. >> Bernard Schwetz: sure my, my assumption that once a selection is made beneath the precautionary fundamental there is an expectation that once data are on hand it is going to be analyzed. And it isn’t a topic of 2d guessing how somebody else made a determination. That decision wasn’t on knowledge. It’s based on a composite of matters that had been proper at the time, considered one of which used to be there wasn’t adequate data to rather make a firm decision, or when to make one anyhow.So we’re now not, we’re now not at risk of second guessing anyone, for the reason that now we’ve data. And that’s how the method must work. But would the question of you with the options are, we have handiest pointed out banning or now not banning, isn’t it viable that anything could be limited in an, without banning it. And it would still accordingly be useful in merchandise but we have now confined the extent in it in order that what migrates out into kid’s mouths or skins someplace or within the food plan, is restrained all the way down to a stage the place it represents an acceptable hazard. Possibly that level would must be at a concentration where the product no longer is flexible and for this reason the further plasticizer is a moot factor considering that it would not work at that level.However it style of maintains us out of the mentality of claiming that it either has to be banned or no longer. >> In, that is a just right point. And i used the term, ban hazard is substance. I believe that it literally means whatever that doesn’t comply with our regulations. So it’s an unfortunate to have the word ban in there, nevertheless it particularly manner good the other, the six are confined to .1 percent. So in effect it can be particularly a efficiency normal you would say. Or some thing like that. It can be a regulation, not a lot as a ban. We do not, we are able to avoid utilising that phrase and say regulator restrict. >> It already does what you, what you simply stated. It regulates it to a specific stage. >> proper. And we, we don’t, you realize I suppose it is ok to think outside the field just a little bit. It does not always have to be a thumbs up, thumbs down.It is a, it could be some, none of the above it that’s what you wish to have to say. >> Managing it, I imply the step that wasn’t delivered here is danger management. And if the dangers may also be managed with the aid of reducing the extent to an extent the place the publicity is just not high sufficient toxicity, then it is successfully managed. We’ve not talked about for what a part of the population is it for everybody, or just a subset. Or if we’re just, these were incentive. These are other issues that we need to maintain as we talk about, are we relaxed or now not with the unique degree of exposure. Nevertheless it make, via managing it to a unique level makes it extra of a quantitative process.And no longer just an all or none system. I guess absolutely that suggestion method is, could be a criteria and to aid this decision making. That is a technique. But there are others. But that is obviously a technique. >> I suppose, all i am pronouncing is we need to be clear about, about this. And also let me add i do not think that is solvable in a Wednesday afternoon. It requires careful situation and probably that is one of the crucial portions of homework we will have to agree on for next time. >> That was once my query is how do we proceed so that we meet again in December of January. We’ve something that we will talk about and then make the next move forward.It, in quantitative risk assessment is a option to remedy, to make these decisions and it is not the only approach. However you are aware of it’s no longer a bad manner both. >> it can be variety of in a apart. Wouldn’t there be president for other chemical compounds or metals. In terms of you already know led and merchandise or or you recognize. You know are just one out of a universe. And there’s been other uses, and there’s been other percent of, you realize, a steel or chemical allowed in terms of. >> well in, led for instance the best way our regulations as a minimum earlier than this PSAA, the reason used to be leds naturally occurring for one factor. It tends to be, however it’s a containment. And so we would count on a distinct background low exposure. And take that into account in the danger calculations. And that’s how they might arrive at, you recognize, going that calculating a stage of publicity that is allowed.For other things like we would recollect well are these matters that can be regulated by means of other groups, you recognize. If it is deliberately delivered to medicines or whatever, you understand we might say, or well you recognize this isn’t a traditional danger comparison approach we’re talking about. However customarily we would say well if it may be, if lots of the publicity is from something underneath FDA or eu jurisdiction, we will say good let them maintain it.However on this case the place you understand, you have got various stuff that is in food and within the environment and it can be now not clear whether it is something that is, can be addressed. We, it can be coming from so many sources in, and you already know some of them are certainly in an individual’s jurisdiction, however others like the way it gets into meals probably no longer. You already know, possibly that is just on the grounds that it finally ends up with the environment.I am form of considering out loud right here. But. >> but lead is similar to that. You recognize if you go back and even now it can be purposely added to products. And it’s in the environmental from gasoline. It is probably in our food supplies, our dos, and decisions. I was once just questioning if there’s, as a substitute than looking to, yeah reinvent the.>> well lead we might anticipate that there’s a precise background stage that’s consistently going to be there in that it can not be regulated via EPA taking it out of gas. You now there may be some background stage left that we need to take delivery of. So we sort of subtract that our of what we are saying that you may be uncovered to. For i guess we would simply appear at whole, I mean if there have been a way. For the reason that this got here up with the DINP. If there have been a strategy to do it, i would have said gee yeah this much whole publicity, you understand, how much type of room does that leave? In other words, good if DINP is adding to that threat, we might have explicitly taken that into account in as a minimum my chance comparison i might have completed it that approach.I would have stated you know there is this a lot danger from the DINP which is not unhealthy, however should you add within the historical past and it puts you over the extent of crisis, you then understand it is a situation. In order that, you already know perhaps that is one approach we are able to take is you understand you’ve gotten complete exposure depending on what the hazard from that is, seeing that i’m now not certain what it is, if it’s you recognize over or beneath that sort of stage of main issue, whatever you need to call it.But if that’s really that top, you know adding to that I believe does make a change, even small quantities. However I, you understand that’s one, it’s one is whatever complete exposure is, after which say do these toys, you know put you over a distinct stage. >> good am I flawed Andreas, that what you have been pronouncing that you do not want to move that manner. You do not need to say there may be some degree that if we go above that we’ve got a challenge. You need to say there are qualitative if it shifts. >> Andreas Kortenkamp: No, no, no, i don’t, I are not able to, i do not agree prescriptive at this stage. But I feel we have to enter a system whereby we map out choices. >> Yeah. >> What, what you may have just said is certainly one. However there are others. We ought to map them out, be clear about it after which appear at it and make a decision. And work from there and then answer the question what if we own a specific choice, or a modus operandi then the subsequent query is what data will we rather need.>> Yeah, yeah. I didn’t you should be descriptive. It’s just, how can we outline the choices and, and move forward? >> Andreas Kortenkamp: One alternative certainly is the one left by means of Bernard, where you bear in mind exposures. This is the, the, that might lead us into full blown hazard characterization, risk assessment product. After which ask the question, can the exposures on account of toys can this be managed in toys, if that’s now not viable for technical motives. For illustration, that is one feasible line of argumentation. Then there is a just right case for a ban. That is one, a method of doing it. However I believe there are other choices as good. And these ought to be mapped out. One other option is one I mentioned. I have never made up my intellect in any respect. It would be, go the way of hazard characterization. >> In, in, by means of hazard you mean not going, you mean going as far as a dose response? >> yes, dose response, yes. >> And, in a single, and, however to what finish? If we’re not doing publicity? >> Andreas Kortenkamp: For example, that’s a excellent query.Can we rather need a quantitative hazard assessment? Or and questions along the strains of how seemingly is it that this and that chemical induces a , etc., etc. You understand, and i am no longer most likely clear about this at this stage. However we have got to think of questions of that nature. >> Would, would clarification come by using, again, making use of something process you want to the three that are banned, and/or the three that are period in-between banned, and allow us to as a committee see what the extraordinary choices inform us. And or do not. >> Yeah, that absolutely. Yes I believe the way of doing it will be to peer what the Europeans have finished. The notion process there. No longer that we would want to mannequin ourselves on Europeans wholly. We’re in the usa right here.However simply keep an eye fixed. >> well I feel what, what they did, the scientists, the programs did danger assessments of man or woman . Although they were conscious of the possibility of accumulative dangers. And you know after which by some means the, the legislature, the voted you know, as we did within the U.S., it was a legislation that did the ban. So there wasn’t necessarily an immediate link between the science and the, and the, and the regulation. Correctly we had some file, after the dirt settled, we had some follow up conversations with the scientists there.And our, we you realize, any person mentioned well how come they banned it and you failed to. And at that degree, threat assert, or danger assessor we had been generally in contract on, on things. But the selection to ban it used to be headquartered on precaution. >> And might be it will be productive for us to recollect that this method may also be carried out utterly with out fully, or say unbiased of this classic chance evaluation, where we’re all used to. I imply any person stated it. It might be situated on their resolution to say we don’t want substitution to head in to, to go in desire of a certain . If we do not ban it this may increasingly occur. We don’t want that accordingly we ban it. Simplified argumentation. But in no, if, should you consider this idea system you’re going to realize that, well you’ll ought to ask the question, another question why do you not wish to go substitution to go that means. So what health hazards are you involved about. After which you have a wellness hazard comparison step recreation. This does not always have to be quantitative. >> That makes, makes various feel.>> Yeah. Hypothetically to be able to be one alternative to go. >> Or. Sure. >> I, I imply you need to, it’s quantitative within the feel you do not want to head to something that’s extra poisonous, but you also must consider of the publicity advantage. I consider for a majority of these, the, the specific exposure migration sees to be about the equal. However in case it can be not, you could possibly have got to bear in mind that as well but it would be kind of a semi-quantitative technique. >>Yeah. >> Holger. >> Holger Koch: too much hypothetic discussion right now. Considering I suppose we’re nonetheless in the stage of information collection. And i think no matter, irrespective of which method the discussion may lead us in, we have to face the truth that we have to type out the elemental information. As you said, we need discussion concerning the finish aspects. We need to cut back all of the rates in terms of the top facets, plus the substitution merchandise.We have to collect the information. We have to have a look what toxicity data for the Is there in regard to the end point more sensitive. We need to assess if this knowledge is gift for the substitution merchandise. And we’d like this information for the substitution products too. So I feel it can be a perfect discussion right now. But that is going to be a discussion for the next assembly in time. >> yes that is true, however it is rather principal one for the reason that good in the silver guide that will fall underneath drawback definition, contacts definition. It is extremely foremost to do that given that we may find, on account that something resolution we now take at that stage will then drive what information we need.However let me come to the text, the cost. I think the legislator had whatever in intellect once they, and right here I believe Holger when I listed unique matters we also must compare. For illustration, the like stages in children and so forth., and so forth., possibly the legislature had in intellect that deliberation follow a specific structure. So there are certainly knowledge we have got to appear at and analyze due to the fact that it is listed right here. And definitely this may support in this suggestion system to decide in desire or in opposition to the ban of targeted chemical compounds. >> Holger I accept as true with you at one stage, however at one other stage i am a bit of bit unclear. In the event you just take the drawback of which might be we talking about, or which choices we haven’t even come practically speakme about that. How are we going to decide. The universe of and alternatives, the ones that we’re going to be involved with, is it going to be all of those.And whether it is, I mean then you are announcing to me that we must have a matrix. Now on this facet the entire and all the alternatives after which over here in one of a kind columns publicity data, in special children, within the fetus and pregnant ladies, is that what you are suggesting that we’d like, and if that is the case and we agree on that, how are we going to get that put collectively, that matrix. >> Holger Koch: I think data is underneath six right here. And as I stated we want knowledge about exposure and exposure. And that i imply as Mike said, each founded on bio monitoring information, but also on usage knowledge migration experiments, and many others. And as Andreas brought up, we have got to be as soon as we deal with one it is probably that different or substitution products come into the market with the identical amount of creation volume. So we’d like know-how on these viable doubtless substitution products.I consider it is considering of these products, considering that did it too. We discussed DEHP and there are almost certainly different substitution products, however we have got to maintain these merchandise in mind right now. >> you utilize the word doubtless. And when you seem on the, one of the crucial EPA records that we receive there is a entire record there of choices that both are getting used or possible to be used. Are we going to head by means of that list one at a time and say this is the one we’ll be speakme about, and this one we’re now not fascinated with. And if that is so then what standards are we going to use. So this leads to, , this is not a simple topic. >> No nevertheless it, the selection on acceptability of an substitute is a choice of the longer term. We are not able to decide whether or to not make some recommendation on a based on what we feel the replacement that we feel the enterprise would go to, or we are going to not ever make a decision on the . A determination of whether or not or now not an alternative is acceptable is within the arms of the regulators.We can not particularly make a judgment in order to avoid the probability that some enterprise will make, will process EPA or CPSC or FDA. Their alternative. And the agency says definitely not. We don’t need to have the chemical like that instead to the one who we’re watching at from the standpoint of managing. So I suppose it is major for us to grasp that there are choices, but i do not feel we are able to make a decision on a headquartered on what we worry maybe an alternative unless it occurs. However number 2B7 stated explicitly we will have to keep in mind the alternatives. >> well it says, we have now some substitute, good remember feasible equivalent wellness defect right here. I mean a few of there are already getting used. So you know the hypothetically you recognize there are some things that would be used, I believe we must take our high-quality shot and with those that we all know are being used in, if it can be, if there may be anything that looks like it will be used.We will add it however it’s we can not hope to have the whole lot quilt each alternative. >> it is again to, if we need this matrix that Holger is arguing for then we’ve got received to make some selections. And special and possible choices. And i might expect we ought to have a cause for why we select one and now not an additional. >> I believe Paul and Earl the day gone by point approach. Given that we’re specializing in the syndrome. So watching structure smart at the chemical substances, which probably the products, we could have to you realize if these are similar merchandise. Or basement products would have identical results. >> i do not feel now we have made that choice but. >> No we did not make any of it. >> Of course syndrome of end point, i don’t think we’ve got made that choice. >> I mean wouldn’t it support to write down a few of these matters down. Like write a list of matters, decisions you must make. Probably write down some possible procedures, qualitative and quantitative approach. >> that is what just taking note of this I was going to suggest. Since it seems like we’re talking about two or three one-of-a-kind things, type of while.And that i feel at least in terms of processes, fascinated with the one-of-a-kind techniques which can be available. After which what’s needed for the special tactics. What we’ve to be had. And then we are able to make a way more advised decision. You know we have these, you realize anything, three or four viable techniques. What’s wanted, what’s on hand and the how do we go forward. After which of course opting for one of the systems.Seeing that there’s a, just paying attention to different, you understand the discussions no longer fully meshing in terms of. >> What I consider we’re additionally speakme on one of a kind phases. I, you already know, I feel this is the perfect stage. What’s the bottom line once we’re all done. The way to do it’s, is a further degree. And then one of the most nitty gritty details is but one more. >> And the point i attempt to make is how are we going to get there. How can we transfer forward? Are we going to do it here? Are we going to try to hash out what you just said that we must do. Or are we going to add ask the to try this supply it again to us and we advised and comment and made alterations. >> No I believe we have, that is a challenge we should not delegate. >> I consider we ought to try this ourselves. However we can not do it within the, in the remainder of these days. So nor should we rush. My recommendation would be we might all independently feel about this and each and every of us might be put together what can we name it form of a submission or discussion paper for subsequent time.This would be circulated well prematurely and refined and that’s then for subsequent time to discussion subject. >> and that i was going to suggest that we every jot down what we’re on paper a go with the flow chart or bullets or some thing. After which get it, do it well before the subsequent assembly so that the subsequent meeting we are able to see what we agree on. >> I was going to without a doubt propose that as good. However you recognize potentially since our next meeting’s not except December, on the earliest. You understand possibly a convention call the place we are able to spend just a few hours in October, November speakme about one of the crucial tactics. Since I consider if we do come collectively and December or January we it will be fine to have a resolution in terms of procedures and desires earlier than then. And agree upon at the moment. >> Like in terms that these are from sampling, that these are a public meetings. Can we have now a convention name. >> Yeah we have had conference calls up to now and this can be a form of a nuts and bolts style of factor and it can be only a fairly, simply to organize us for the, for the real assembly.>> okay so I believe that may be ok. >> So then the plan would be it can be relatively as committee members to provide you with a report that would flow into among the different committee individuals. After which we can have a convention call the place we can speak about what each of us has proposed. After which with a bit of luck come to a consensus with the intention to pressure the assembly in December. >> are you able to be extra special of what we will have to have in that file so that we do not emerge as with apples and oranges, and nuts and bolts. >> Yeah I was once sincerely considering sort of the identical factor. On the grounds that there are, you already know, one of a kind portions and each of us have distinctive advantage.So might be you understand I don’t know Mike or a method of framing the predominant elements after which each and every proceed to stipulate it or fill it in since for distinct aspects i know I will not have the advantage. And for other aspects i will. But it will aid, you already know, frame precisely what is needed in this report and go on to one of the vital question. >> it would be worthwhile if we had a way of what exceptional individuals are going to handle.I imply established to your potential. Despite the fact that you would not be limited to that. It could make sure we cover all of these matters. I am not definite if we, would we start with the framework, or i guess, or get the submission. Some submissions first. I feel we, i suppose it might make feel to have some style of a framework. >> you know very normal in terms of the questions. >> Yeah. >> To answer the strategies which can be on hand. The information needs. Choices.I imply you recognize more of a, you already know, very basic outline that we are able to. >> Yeah ok. >> Take portions to fill in. >> k. Could it, Mike might or not it’s established on the various elements of our cost? >> Mike: I think that’s a part of it. And then substances that maintain each and every of these. Now what do we ought to do with this. >> Yeah. >> also comes again to the place we were the day before today with . What age staff. What . And yet these are all motives that we’d have got to bear in mind in order that we begin to segregate that small number of which are of perfect priority versus these which might be out on the margins. Those which are the perfect toxicity versus those that are out on the margins. And people are the matters that will allow me to be in a position to claim good the 4 that I relatively feel we have got to focal point on and these two finish elements, that that’s the place the meat of this is.And the opposite matters we can have much less sure bet. It can be toxic, they’re less exposure, anything the reasons might be. So i might hope that as a group we will start to slender down those kinds of, as good to get us involved in where to spend our power. >> And it will additionally help if we would get faster than later Paul’s and Earl’s slides from the previous day. Copies of those. I do not think we acquired these but. >> yes. >> I suppose in answer to Bernard’s factor, I suppose there can be no dialogue that the six in the laws are those that that is the minimum. And i might say in terms of substitution or proposed substitution products it’s DHPH, on the very least worry.Very likely extra. But so we’re eight already. Minimum. >> good there’s a handful which might be clearly in use. DPHP we now have, i don’t feel now we have noticeable but. However it’s a capabilities. >> Mike is that whatever that, that your office could put together for us? In an awfully. >> Mike: A framework? >> well that and, and also in phrases of Bern’s factor of opting for the if these would be simply the, enumerated and you recognize why we wouldn’t do not forget some of the choices that they are no longer in creation or they may be, no knowledge. >> Yeah. And we’re variety of engaged on that in specific, and i am definitely going to check out to get in contact with some of the industry individuals to, to get extra expertise on that record. About the chemical substances on that record. You recognize which ones are really used and so forth. I don’t consider we have got to go too some distance down that list. I consider, you understand, with this six. You understand there may be a couple of areas just like the not on there. There is every person has just a few, or that they might add to that list and we might definitely do that.>> i spotted the EPA record had eight . >> correct, proper. >> And a part of that, I mean the pental is there not considering it’s used, but in view that of it is activity in that assay so it can be practically like a mannequin compound. You understand some of those like the as much as, and hexel I, anyone advised me that in hexel no one fairly makes use of anymore. But it surely’s given that it’s lively in that assay it’s something we might consider as a minimum one phase, the hazard identity part or whatever like that. And i could also you realize conceive of you realize considering we now have so many chemical compounds. Whatever the final method is, all the chemical compounds don’t necessarily must make all of it via. >> Envision the file that we put collectively would have whatever as simple as a table of the entire and alternatives after which a short dialogue of why we selected some and no longer others to rather, and if anybody used or concept about utilizing a substitute that you recognize wasn’t excessive on our record, it wouldn’t be that hard for either them or us.We’d have the framework to move by means of. Yes. >> One more thing that we have not mentioned and that is the function of judgment on this procedure of us being capable to make suggestions. I don’t suppose any of the systems that we now have talked about leads you down a line within the evaluation that claims yes or no. It’s a topic of our judgment on whilst you get down where you’ve acquired all of the matters on a page that are essential to make a decision.The choice is not there. The decision comes from us. And it’s a matter of judgment of whether or not the differential between exposure and toxicity is enough that i would be given this as a suitable threat. And what you would take delivery of maybe different from what i would take delivery of. But nevertheless this, there is no recipe for taking this definitively to a yes or no reply. And i consider we have got to be ready to have a discussion when we arrive at our interpretation of what is to be had to make a choice, then there may be yet another step forward of us to make a judgment to what it way. And does it translate into a recommendation to restrict or not.We’ve not mentioned that. But that is another venture that’s now not convenient. >> I mean alongside the identical occasions, I mean uncertainty is some thing we have to believe of, I imply whatever, every step of the way in which we would as well do it as we go alongside is these are what the uncertainties are, since. >> Yeah. We ought to be ready to document well what that judgment is. >> Yeah. >> considering what the approach in which the judgment is mainly extra important than the determination.Is that indicates the force of what your conviction. And if we end up looking at person , but admire that it can be part of a loved ones of in the market and exposure. That turns into a part of the judgment if we shouldn’t have a quantitative means of adjusting a stage of anything to consider that it is accumulative outcomes. We at the least need to have that as some of the judgments that we have now offered an extra component that we have now introduced an extra factor based on the exposure to multiple . And that’s maybe why we are as conservative as we’re on this judgment seeing that of that nature of the exposure. >> I need to have a damage. I think others may just as good. So let’s reconvene 15/20 minutes. >> okay. >> okay let’s reconvene. Is there anymore discussion in regards to the challenge that we were talking about earlier than we broke for lunch.Or will we bear in mind that completed? Mike is going to position collectively a framework, and then personally we’re going to build on that. And share our contributions by using, before our convention call. K. Listening to no extra discussion on that, i might like to move on in the temporary time that we have now, two members must go away quickly after lunch. So I thought we’d take what time we’ve got to be had to talk about a couple of different disorders. And one of the vital issues that I, we must speak about is what are the top features that we are going to use in our assessments, some thing they could also be. Is it going to be the syndrome. Are we going to be more inclusive on that? I might prefer to open up that discussion at this factor.Any feedback? >> Chris Gennings: do we agree that almost all of the data, at the least from the animal reports goes to be syndrome? Might be human knowledge we have extra type of end elements. >> It seems like the syndrome would be the default for the reason that it is the person who seems to appear at the lowest stage. The person who has the . It does not have consistency across species. However there are so many studies now which have explored this in rats that it has that inner consistency that has been repeated.So I suppose with those, and there are ingredients of the syndrome that resemble the challenge in people. And in phrases of finish features. So I think it could be rough to provide you with different end features which have traits, a sample like that that may force us to an extra one. >> Chris Gennings: but maybe we might, if we feel about the syndrome as might be the position the place you set initial focus, after which come back and ask, if we had chosen, is there any proof that different finish points might were affected at scale down levels than what we could find syndrome? >> Yeah i’d agree information and the syndrome is where most of the knowledge is and most touchy. In people of direction you already know there may be other end facets, neuro development, progress, physique composition. However there’s, there’s not a lot comparison data within the animals. So and then on the opposite facet there may be no longer numerous human knowledge on the of the .However from paper. There is not a variety of, or nothing. >> So then do I have an understanding of from that that going down to our 2nd question that we’re going to focus, not hinder, but focus our awareness on prenatal exposures. >> It raises a question and Paul talked about somewhat bit. And it’s prenatal in the rat, but what’s the time of exposure within the human that it corresponds to that prenatal interval within the rat. >> I feel Paul had acknowledged notably give a definitive reply but I consider he stated from about eight weeks to fifteen weeks or so. So we feel probably as early as six weeks. >> however I suppose we must have that footmark in there at that time isn’t the identical in rats as it’s in people. But what we’re specializing in is when the time of exposure in the course of that period is what we are fairly worried about.>> correct. So that, Holger. >> Holger Koch: Plus there probably more than one testosterone modulated home windows of sustainability in the human. Even after beginning. >> that’s, that’s the question i want us to speak about. So do, we’re particularly constructive to examine the, the gestational date 16 to 17 within the pink with the top of the first trimester of humans, but we’ve different windows of sustainability. Probably in the human. Delivery. >> there are various puberty at three to six months, after which of path development. But at the least from the rat knowledge they advocate that the fetal window is more touchy, although they see effects for the duration of pubertal exposure.So maybe related in people. >> there’s latest new experimental evidence from Richard lab to exhibit that continuation of effects within the neonatal period will make certain that the results persist. That is fairly predominant as good I think. >> Bern. >> Bernard Schwetz: These are dated in rodents, in rats. >> k so we’re, we’re, we’ll expand the period of time of our consideration to the neonatal interval as good? >> invariably if the human puberty is it regulated by testosterone? >> sure in boys, yeah. >> So. >> And the opposite, whilst you think about life phases, the other part of it’s, the exposures obviously the neonatal exposure pathways are going to be unique than the, the, you recognize, babies and tots and so forth. >> good am I hearing then that we’re going to go all of the method by means of the period of, of exposure for our consideration, okay.The place does that take us in phrases of time frame? Human progress? From eight weeks prenatal to. >> For puberty? When is it entire within the male? >> Yeah. >> The, in general would say good obviously by 17, 18, but frequently sixteen, 17. I imply it varies of direction. >> Yeah, by concerning the time that you call, be known as into the military within the U.S., but still allowed to have a drink of beer. >> Earl. Earl suggested that the mind would not mature except so much later. But that is an extra drawback, I consider I will have to communicate for himself. >> ok. I was once simply watching at our list of important disorders, I think we have now, we have now mentioned. The 0.33 one which is important. Now we have, now we have mentioned that, have not come to a conclusion yet, we’re going to investigate that. After which the problem about constructing on the.>> Philip? >> Philip: yes. I think we should follow factor, with point three. Since. >> ok. >> If we take the long winding avenue by means of cumulative hazard comparison. We want fashioned end features. So I suppose we will have to talk about on which of the or substitution merchandise we center of attention. And if we have now the needed understanding on the respective finish points. >> I suggestion Mike was once going to get that collectively for us. Did I miss that? >> Mike: good i am, i’m obviously going to check out to get extra understanding in regards to the, the makes use of and potential exposures of that lengthy record of . >> I suppose we should preserve it pragmatic right here. We are able to intricate the list. >> Yeah. >> however I consider for a just right beginning point we will have to just throw these related substitution tactics within the realm and in a few minutes talk about if now we have the central finish features and information on these end elements present. >> k. That is, why don’t you . >> Yeah. So I suppose for lots of the in query we have now the central data.But when my recollection is correct for some of the substitution merchandise we should not have the valuable data. So i’d say that the relevant end factor is the syndrome with probably the most touchy parameter being the specified testosterone level. And the HED for instance. So my question now could be, do we have this data for instance for the EPHP? Do we’ve it for ? >> good now we have, for, in Earl’s talk yesterday for the, his essay on testosterone creation he had one test on dinch which was once negative. Sort of a screening. DPHP was on his lit however has no longer been executed but. As well as DIDP which is of course one of the period in-between band ones. He hasn’t gotten to that both. And i feel that might be very priceless expertise. So far as he range of substitutes, you recognize we have amongst other matters, we have the Versa file which lists capabilities substitutes and we also have our possess record where we measured what used to be simply within the toys about a yr ago.And you recognize there have been 5 or anything, there have been five or so very common ones. Ordinarily ditch in, you already know, the normal, those you possibly can expect and so one. DEHT was original. Of these i do know DEHT i’m beautiful certain was bad in, all fosters experiments from the last century. So probably the most others you realize perhaps they will have to be, maybe you realize, might be we could, we are able to propose to Earl and Paul that they look at one of the most other citrates given that i’m not so certain if we now have the, those data. >> yesterday after we discussed this, Earl cited, gray brought up that skinny sheet proven. But it surely was once a screening test with I feel three were dosed.And he, he admitted that had he, he stated he are not able to exclude to have as a rule visible in influence had he achieved an escalation learn. So it is entertaining to hear from him that there was no outcomes. But he himself was once not undoubtedly sure targeted that with the dose escalation, such an outcome would no longer show up. From the amazing summary which we’ve in front of us, from BASF regarding Hex dinge, I think what we can glen right here is that within the learn according to scan directions, which they carried out. They used a a long way high powered experiment. 25 dims or something. But I can’t become aware of from that potent abstract whether or not or no longer there are the critical information to us, valuable information gathered, whether or not reduction in testosterone, whether or not it was once measured, I count on it wasn’t.So I conclude that involving dinch the significant data are usually not on hand relatively to us. Both to us or now not available at all. >> Yeah I imply the specific studies should not to be had right now and that’s, that’s an obstacle, that’s an foremost predicament. >> What other either or possible choices do you wish to talk about? >> The EHP Robert. >> What can we know about that? >> good I, I instructed to Earl and Paul that they scan DPHP due to the fact it’s three you already know the branching, now not just like DEHP.So I obviously wanted that confirmed. And although it can be, it is no longer, i do not feel it is being used in toys yet, and BASF says they would not always recommend it for that use, but nonetheless, it’s such an obvious, to me it’s an obvious talents substitute. Anyone’s ordinarily going to use it. So that was once excessive on my list to nominate for them. However once more, that is within the equal class. There are information that we should not have access to the original experiences.>> So enterprise gain knowledge of we wouldn’t have. >> correct. >> Chris Gennings: I suppose Andreas’ point is that after we have such information, instead of simply having a screening model, if we might have more amazing studies. >> proper, correct. >> With 25 dams in a group, or anything, I mean some thing the standard is. >> right and that is of direction, we are not able to do it. Or tell them to do it. We could ask them to do it. We could dominate it to NTP or you know, we are able to try to get it completed.That, I feel that comes below the quantity five. Are there any primary studies, we will obviously ask for them. >> is it cheap, with the dearth of data, to make conservative assumptions concerning the knowledge risk for such chemical compounds the place we wouldn’t have data, and anticipate that. >> i’m no longer certain we can, i am no longer definite we are able to. >> Or. >> Yeah. >> i suppose that is a question of judgment.Precautionary principle. I imply it is probably the most competencies steps is to, we do have experiences of these than to only swiftly go by means of and say what do they have got and is that going to be enough or, or now not. >> however lack of information does not imply safety. >> No. No. I suppose you have, we need to be careful. >> Oh most likely. I mean it, we will say you already know maybe we can assessment it, that doesn’t make it secure. Or you know prove that there isn’t any hazard or no danger. And we have got to be clear about that. >> however Mike you don’t, the CPSC does now not have the regulatory authority to ask for distinctive varieties of information on any new product coming in. >> Mike: well we cannot that’s most likely, we don’t the authority to, good we cannot are to nominate it to NT, good ask the enterprise, nominate to NTP, or work via the EPA’s interagency trying out committee and spot if they are able to get the organizations to do it. I mean those are our options. We cannot demand that anybody do it.And we can’t, we shouldn’t have the, the labs anymore to, to do it ourselves. >> any other alternatives you want to talk about? >> aside from the alternatives we, additionally the animal knowledge just isn’t indicative we would have to evaluation additionally considering that of the, of the, well suggestive. >> We’re most likely for the the . Oh you mean what are the top features? >> No what’s it used for. What is it used for. Why are you saying for humans? >> Oh in view that there’s human knowledge showing associations between mono Ethel and, it can be utilized in individual care products. But yeah. >> So that would be a we need to add to our record. Our record. Now not an substitute. >> Yeah so DEP. >> So we’re DEHP, BBP and DBP are the ones which are quote banned. We’ll seem at these. DINP, DI, DP, DNOP, the meantime we are going to seem at. DEP. INBP ISO. >> . >>Any others? >> For the and the octal there is now not quite a lot of animal information i do not consider . >> but for the topic of completeness, the, the, we should incorporate this one too. And likewise the . >> The linears. >> Yeah. >> I want we had Earl’s slide. I recall the slide that he had the record of all of the chemical compounds that he checked out.I do not bear in mind what was on that and what was which can we think that the entire chemical substances we have listed at on that web page, whether or not or not they have been evaluated? Most of the time, good yeah for the . >> a number of the excessive, a variety of them. >> And, and have we requested him if we will have the data? >> now not yet. But will. And i consider the underlying knowledge on these slides, I believe are published.It’s simply that I was having trouble tracking all of it down and recreating so we’ll, we will get what we will from him. >> good the new stuff, they are doing this, are doing the testosterone and that is no longer, that’s not published i do not consider. >> however will we as a minimum have the slides. We will ensure something they do submit, we will ensure we get it. We’re on their record of to get copies of it when it is published, or get an alert. >> any other nominations to our universe of. Good I just desired to make clear the DEP, it is virtually a solvent. It’s not going to be in, within the toys. Probably not going to be in the, what we name childcare products. Although until, even though the cosmetic childcare products. It could be in. However it’s a different publicity supply. >> Yeah. >> however possibly a excessive publicity. >> well in. >> it is a excessive publicity. >> It falls beneath Roman III which we examine probably publicity of youngsters, pregnant females, pregnant women are almost certainly to specific it to be uncovered.>> Oh sure, most likely, yeah. >> No extra feedback? Nominations? Well number C, yeah. >> factor quantity 4, I do not know whether we ought to talk about that any extra. I think we agree that we’re no longer going to, wow new floor within the, ignore what’s been summarized very well in the NRC files. >> however is there any, any remark? Then number five, we, we have now touched on. I’m not sure we have, now we have, expressed definitively that we would like some thing achieved. But are there, are there crucial gaps almost that, that some learn, given the lifetime of this committee would be finished that might aid us in our achieving our charge. Bern. >> Bernard Schwetz: however i’m definite there are significant gaps. I feel what used to be on my intellect when we talked about this earlier was once the probability that there are some gaps that if we proceeded without understanding, we might regret it. As opposed to just quality to have additional knowledge. And it doesn’t seem like we now have identified gaps that if we do not fill them earlier than we proceed, we will be remiss. So it’s not clear that there are experiences that may maintain us from proceeding.The, that might need to be executed. If he nominates for stories to the NTP it will be a few years before you see the results. If we ask enterprise, it will take time. Should you nominate to the NDP, it prompts three to do their possess stories. And you, I have no idea for those who remember what different choices you have for filling data gaps. Well we can go to Earl or to others. >> Yeah that probably the quickest. >> Quickest. Yeah. >> but there is not any one of these that might generate knowledge before even the following assembly to be of that a lot support to us. Again imaginative and prescient stories being carried out before we’re completed. >> It definitely is correct for human experiences as good.>> definite. >> not going for some thing would grow to be available for the time hole. >> good I consider Shawna said she’d have some, some knowledge. No longer a lot on the . But I believe the AGD in relation to other end aspects. So. Yeah. >> good one thing, you realize we tried to just do discover what’s close to done. >> And that, I think we now have discussed six quite considerably this morning. >> i don’t. We are able to, we are able to appear at seven and talk about that. We may not do a cumulative hazard evaluation which makes, if that’s the case that makes this one moot. But I think the thought of, of are we going to include different anti-androgens in our evaluation should be mentioned. >> good again, I feel the distinction is quantitative, cumulative hazard assessment or in phrases of you recognize that you would be able to do not forget whether or not or no longer coexposure to distinctive materials will, for example shift these responses for . And that i believe we can, on the foundation of evidence awarded to us the day before today via Earl gray there are some chemicals where we are able to make such statements, or be it not in a, in a quantifying approach.I feel that is premature. However in my intellect, what’s asked of us, explicitly in the cost, would imply that we’d have to don’t forget such explanations. >> I imply what I did not get from the day before today was a sense of you already know that is person who we’re all uncovered to and also you have to incorporate this. I suppose i have not, or I hold asking people what are the ones which can be you know where there may be plenty of exposure, universal exposure that must be included in this.And i have never gotten it an answer yet. >> well I notion Earl grey stated TCTD. >> ok yeah, yeah, good, that is without doubt universal in. >> EED, para EED. >> Oh too. Which used to be shown to be anti . >> there is additionally a question extra concerning distinct anti pesticides. However I do not know what the drawback is the U.S. However in Europe you could surely say yeah there may be exposure to those as well. But we’d know which chemical compounds to appear at there. >> there is one in but we at least within the do not need through the monitoring information this pesticide. There is no data in the ninth. We know there is exposure to . Or it can be metabolites. In Europe, after consuming targeted types of pink wine. >> The all pesticides truly are, must be checked out. >> whether or not that’s viable in a quantitative way, whether the info are right here for the U.S., is a 2d subject. However often in order to be one factor to be able to roughly be self limiting. However the. >> They probably more like a qualitative undertaking. >> I mean going, going back to number six, I notion from Earl’s slides, that there is hope for having, you recognize, customary finish elements and long-established dose response shapes and so forth.So that would not be so unhealthy. It, I consider it is usually a challenge if you happen to include different pesticides and different non-folly compounds. It perhaps an problem of diethyl but as far as the syndrome goes, good the animal information it looks beautiful excellent. >> it’s going to. >> I think we, we have mentioned eight. >> Yeah. >> That sort of corresponds to the populations. >> precisely. I assume however we might bear in mind what are the sources of exposure. We have talked a lot about that. >> i don’t believe we’re overlooking plenty of any main sources. I mean i will try to see what i will be able to discover concerning the pesticides.But, i do not consider we’re missing an excessive amount of. >> instead of the, from foods, yeah. I imply we’re mindful of the foremost sources. >> Yeah. >> whether or not now we have the information, I imply even though we had information in phases of meals in the U.S., it could nonetheless be a very problematic undertaking to estimate exposures. >> Holger. >> Holger Koch: I feel a point that needs to be made clear can also be what’s the distribution of the exposures we are taken with median exposures.I will have an interest within the 90th percentile of exposures. I will be interested in the 99th percentile or in highest values. It is a question of significance for decoding monitoring the bio monitoring information. But in addition for interpreting the mannequin data from modeling experiments and many others. >> i’m pointing this out because on Monday most of the knowledge awarded through designated precedents had been enthusiastic about medium exposures. And that i think this doesn’t help us at all. >> I imply it’s, and it is, , it is one thing to have percentile exposures to the individual . How do you mix that to the person who is within the ninety fifth percentile for DINP perhaps within the 50th percentile for some thing else. >> I consider that is lovely simple. We now have the data on the . You know what individual has and wishes exposure or is publicity to the C. And the query is do we need to stick to the conservative process and on the exposure of every individual.Or do we type of want to make a precise worst case projection. And adding up the ninety fifth percentiles for each and every price and the would assume that the worst case technique there might be members taking on the entire within the higher percentiles. So in the, I feel within the migration strategy, you do, you utilize this primary case, a case assumption. So in my, in my feeling there is not any argument in opposition to doing this also in the bio information. I think this can be a point we could discuss. >> I feel that that, I imply that will be an awfully conservative approach.There probably are statistical approaches to estimate 99th percentile of the multi-dimensional set of . I do not believe that’s a simple mission. >> i will be able to without doubt seem into that. But I, I, you realize when you consider that it relies on, it is going to depend upon what else is there. You could say you’re o the boundary of some cloud. However in which path? I imply we would try to investigate that somewhat further and notice. If you’re nonetheless on that percentile, you realize what’s the worst case of that percentile in terms of rest or anything. >> it will be helpful should you would suppose about that and comprise that for your contribution. >> Yeah. >> and i mean it is, it is best to be conservative in, and you realize, add the 95th percentiles, primarily as a primary cut.However in case you do this and then you definately say the risk is simply too high, then the question is do you want to refine that. Additionally in, in the event you do, with man or woman information, I imply do you, would you weight the exclusive another way? You would, as a result of potency differences, or, or how would you do that. >> My reconnection is there. I know the differences. >> besides possibly DINP. I mean the others are beautiful shut ample however k. I’m just wondering about that, but i might agree with Holger, you understand in utilising the ninety fifth percentile of a couple of . On the grounds that you realize it’s not unreasonable you know might be in the In Hanes it can be some thing 1500 folks, but which seems like rather a lot nevertheless it’s no longer unreasonable to believe that humans could have more than one exposures to those considering they are from extraordinary sources and one would not preclude the other, so you could probably have an exposure to DEHP, and so on. That are in the higher variety. And then there’s of direction the distinct situations where you will have, whether or not it is for medications, medical gadgets, etc., you could have exposures which are a hundred or 1,000 instances larger. >> some other comments? >> It sounded to me the day gone by like distinction between EPA and FDA is particularly clear and possibly a subject matter of on-going dialogue this time as wanted. But the difference between the regulatory realm for EPA and CPSC isn’t as good outlined. Is that proper? >> well within the sense, I imply EPA has what 5 special pursuits occurring correct now involving . So they are most likely energetic for exact. And there’s significant overlap between our preview and and we’re used to working with them. I mean now not that we do not work with FDA. However most likely mostly work with OPPT greater than than various different corporations. >> guess what I was watching for rather than exercise, was once the question if in case you have buyers who’ve end up alarmed due to the fact of an exposure, and possibly a response and they say what, who regulates this. Who do i go to. Do they turn out to be listening to from EPA? No we do not try this. CPSC does. And CPSC says no we do not, that is the EPA’s. However are there gaps of that sort? >> I feel frequently it can be more lap than a gap. >> however in phrases of publicity, I mean I have no idea that i have a powerful experience that this definitely happens, but if the EPA ended up doing regulatory, making regulatory choices centered on exposure best to pesticides, however then we knew there was once publicity.I mean you realize, the science wishes to be. >> good yeah EPA and F, I mean FDA are almost like five specific marketers. , and of path we quite are a different company. And that makes it difficult to do matters like this. However we are, we’re looking for ways to work collectively. Any person instructed that the publicity in view that it’s the factor to do on the grounds that we’ve, no one began that but. There is a skills with the IRS exercise. And their workshop developing. There may be a skills that we will, if not work together, as a minimum share information and make our jobs respective jobs easier. However I imply it is no longer unprecedented for, to have an interagency recreation. Good we did it a very long time in the past for dioxin where FDA, the one of a kind ingredients of FDA and EPA and CPSC contributed to a multi, then it was a multi-media. Hazard comparison was once determined that they used, and we have collaborated on different movements as well. So it, , it’s a possibility, the trick is to line up our, now not just out, you already know program wishes, but also the timing. >> okay it is nearly the midday smash for lunch. On the grounds that we will lose two of the members of the committee before we reconvene, do, is there another industry that the rest of us want to discuss between the top of lunch and 2:00 p.M. When the rest of us have got to leave. Or will have to we adjourn the assembly at this factor? >> k. Can i, if we make a decision to adjourn, i’m looking to feel, are there any little business matters.The, the books have two CDs, all people will have to have two CDs. One who I prepared that’s very nearly what’s within the e-book. But plus just a few extras that were too huge to put in the publication. The opposite CD is from Exxon cellular. And that has now not only their displays, but there’s a variety of knowledge in there. Correctly there is a database in there that Dr. Clark pointed out the day gone by when she was speaking about publicity. There may be a whole database in there. So I, there’s like various know-how, released papers, unpublished stories. Etc. Anyway there is quite a few, you will have to have two of those, at the least, when you leave. We would, if you are on an airplane we will mail you the, the e-book itself in case you like. But, you would want to take these CDs. I even have some difficult copies of one of the crucial, of Dr.Godwin’s slides from the previous day that you are, can take with you when you like. In case you have them, have them prematurely. Yeah. >> And Mike you can from the presenters that. >> Mike: i’m going to ensure, i will monitor them down and get everything. I can even, i will appear via my notes in, in, as I did final time. Summarize any to do, a list of to do matters. >> will we wish to make a when we can each of us on the committee on the way to have our, whatever it’s we put collectively do. >> Oh yeah. >> To the committee. We’ll meet, presumably in December. >> can we no longer, do we no longer make the date corporation? The dates we agreed on, and assume that it will go forward unless we hear in any other case when.>> good the assembly date, I consider. >> company. >> Is corporation. Yeah. A date for submitting your entire, distributing your entire thoughts on learn how to proceed. >> yes. >> will we wish to try this a month earlier than the meeting. Or. >> Yeah we would like Andreas as cumulative danger evaluation. >> Yeah. >> To us. >> A draft will be k. >> A draft is great. Not more than a hundred pages. >> Yeah and you understand two or three enormous pages digits will suffice. However will we want to get those matters a month before, or a month, two months earlier than and speak about them a month before. >> A 2d month. >> So do the primary week in November? When should we choose a date for a conference call? Which you’re no longer definite we, i might guess we’d need to do it late in the day right here.Or early. >> Early within the morning U.S. Time. >> Oh yeah, yeah, I got it backwards. Which means that it’s quite early. >> really early on the West Coast. >> the hardest, we had one the place we had Europe, Canada, Australia, and that i do not know if we had Japan, however I imply it was, it was once form of tricky. So 5:00 a.M. Portland time is, nine hours change from Germany? I believe? >> Yeah. We’re in the graveyard after lunch then. Yeah. >> 5 my time can be 4:00 you are time in the afternoon.>> but if we say we’re backwards, 4:00 Germany, no 5:00 in Germany is four:00 in Britain, and that is 9:00 here. And 6:00 there? >> is that this okay for you? It is k for you? I do not need to. >> as long as i have my coffee i’m first-class. >> well and the query is would you two rather do it at the end of the day from work, or at night from dwelling? I imply it’s an alternative.>> finish of, finish of day from work can be first-rate. We do not always discontinue at 5:00 on the British universities. >> k. >> So 6:00. >> we are in the pub at that factor. >> Yeah. >> well there’s that too. >> At 2:00. >> So on the way to be, or is it 7:00, that may be 7:00 a.M. On the East Coast? >> 9, 9:00 a.M. East Coast. >> Oh 9:00 a.M. East Coast. >> Six West Coast. >> 4:00 p.M., right.What number of hours between ny and London? >> five. We can do it, we are able to do it at 5:00 or 6:00 p.M. German time. So rather that is k. >> I mean is, is Germany an hour at the back of? >> Yeah an hour forward. >> forward. You’re ahead. You’re ahead of Andreas. >> No Germany’s constantly ahead in terms of time. So Britain is an hour in the back of Germany. So when it’s 5:00 p.M. In Germany, it is 4:00 p.M. In Britain. >> So let’s make it 6:00 p.M. German time. 5:00 p.M. London time. So that might be 10:00. >> noon. >> midday in the big apple. And after breakfast in. >> That works for me. I will be able to quite often get, be to work by using noon. >> So do we pick a day? >> Now the day but, but we were. >> Mike. >> Yeah well if we the, if we get the stuff up by using November 1st, when would you like to, how long do you want, do you want to read it, per week? >> per week to digest. >> Yeah. >> i am doing an NIH evaluate the eighth and ninth of November. So if we could do it after that. >> that is first-rate. >> How about Friday the 12th? >> not excellent for you.Good k, Friday’s not just right interval? >> No . >> I may be in Portland. >> seem me up if you’re. >> ok. >> watching at that week of November 8th. >> ok. >> How is the 18th, the 18th of November, i am teaching that day so i will do this. Holger that just right for you? The 18th of November? Not good. >> 15th or 16th. >> 16th. So it’s okay with you? >> that’s the day I instruct, but that’s k. I can do this. But i do not instruct unless the afternoon, so. >> So we’re speakme about the fifteenth then? >> fifteenth of November, work for everyone? Holger? >> Yeah that’s best. Ok, that’s it. >> On the East Coast? >> I consider it can be 9:00 East Coast, correct. >> November 15th. >> another industry? Mike? >> Mike: I believe that is it.Some of them, a couple, a couple of you ought to see Lisa before you go. >> okay if there’s, so Monday, November 15th. At 6:00 p.M. Germany, or 5:00 p.M. England, or 5:00 p.M. Is, is that ? >> yes. >> GMT. >> okay. The second meeting of the chap is adjourned. .