#because again asoiaf is not just tragedies

[allovesthings]

I was thinking of a song of ice and fire and the way it is seen as hopeless by certain people and I actually disagree with that in general. I wasn't surprised at all when GRRM said it would be a bittersweet ending and not just a tragic ending.

Terrible things and tragedies happened in it but when I'm reading it, I think he does balance all of that well with the hope keeping us invested and rooting for the characters still alive.

And that balance of gritty tragedy and sadness with hope is also part of the reason why I think it's stupid to say that two of the main protagonists of the books are either going to become a mad queen murdered and an assassin too far gone who had to leave because she can't live in a society. Without talking about how out of character that would be for both of them (because The Mad Queen is clearly Cersei not Dany and Arya cannot erase Arya Stark's identity from herself) that's not bittersweet that's just bitter.

Also the idea that because GRRM likes to write shade of grey when he writes characters means there are no antagonists or protagonists, no good people and no bad one is just plain stupid.

[naggascradle]

really i think the red wedding is perhaps one of the best moments in modern literary history because its soooo much more than just that one scene ive said it once and ill say it again nothing in asoiaf is a complete and utter shock twist everything is foreshadowed like being woven into a great tapestry of everything that happens. the red wedding is foreshadowed so much you feel it looming over every narrative involved and i really do believe the cultural consciousness of the spoiler that it will happen improves the reading for the red wedding. you know that sickening feeling that everyone here involved is doomed and there's nothing youu can do to stop it. daenerys's vision of a king with a wolf head surrounded at a feast of the dead a whole book before it even takes place. the emphasizing of how you should never ever ever ever violate the laws of hospitality its a crime against the gods and catelyn continuing to push that they should eat first no more matter what. the legend of the rat cook and the gods anger over it. and then you realize not only is the red wedding a tragedy but it is just the beginning and a narrative device that will span every house involved and their downfalls. it is by design that tywin lannister plans it and he's dead by the end of the same book along with his grandson. oh red wedding you will always be famous i love you so dearly and i cannot wait to read the fabulous horror of the demise that lord walder frey will meet

[alwaysdaenerys]

I just feel bad for show-only fans of Game of Thrones and House of the Dragon sometimes, you know? Because the way that GOT ended, and the way HOTD is going to end, it's...bleak. All of the characters in the Dance of the Dragon saga are doomed; no one we truly love and care about is going to make it through, guys. It's horrible, actually. There is no victor--if that's even what we need anyway--and the status quo remains, crushing everyone beneath it's enormous, never-ending wheel: it's grim-dark and heartbreaking.

ASOIAF was supposed to be GRRM's response to that tragedy. A woman's family is usurped, she will take back what is hers, and achieve what her ancestor could not. But sadly, Game of Thrones is not ASOIAF and if you only watch the shows, you are going to see Rhaenyra go the same way as Daenerys, murdered and once again usurped. George wrote Rhaenyra as a tragic character, there is no doubt, but Daenerys is NOT SUPPOSED TO BE. She is meant change the status quo that tramples the smallfolk/women/cripples/ bastards/and broken things/etc. She is meant to live on and plants trees.

If you only watch the shows, all hope is lost. Nothing is solved. Nothing can truly be achieved. Nothing has changed. The wheel continues to turn. My heart aches to think that you will see the parallels and you'll wonder: is this the same exact thing as before? Did we learn anything?

I just hope book fans can get some relief, you know? Because George's ending absolutely cannot leave us without something to look forward to, without something to be proud of. He said bittersweet: not happy, not tragic, not hopeless. What future can the characters of GOT look forward to with an ending like that?

The Dance of the Dragons is the tragic tale, because ASOIAF is the dream of spring.

[franzkafkagf]

Targaryens love to glorify the fire, the conquest, the dragons—constantly obsessed with being the blood and seed of Aegon the Conqueror. But what if Aenys didn’t come from Aegon at all? What if the entire dynasty they’ve been killing each other over was founded on the union of a queen and a simple bard who just loved to hear her sing while he played his lute?

What if Aenys wasn't the trueborn son of Aegon, but instead the product of something completely unexpected—genuine, human love? Think about it. While Maegor embodies everything about Valyrian supremacy, bloodlines, strength through fire and blood (and let's be honest, probably born from blood magic because Aegon was infertile and Visenya wasn’t about to let the dream die), Aenys was... different. Aenys was soft, “weak”. But he was so profoundly human—he loved stories, the stars, music. If Maegor was a blade forged in black fire, Aenys was a quiet song lingering in the air.

And isn’t it fitting? The Targaryens repeat the same mistakes over and over again because they are obsessed with the idea that they’re descended from Aegon the Conqueror, when they are really all descendants of a queen and a lowly bard. That’s the irony—this family that prides itself on Valyrian superiority and divine right is actually the product of something far more humble and human. Their “destiny” wasn’t fire. It was songs. Stories and songs are the lifeblood of Westeros. People remember through stories. The histories, the legends—these aren’t forged in blood, they’re passed down through mummer’s plays, puppet shows, songs sung at taverns. What are we told over and over in ASOIAF? That songs are how history survives.

Aenys was born of love and song. And that matters because look at how their dynasty ends. Egg grew up loving stories of knights and heroes. He wanted to be one of those heroes from the tales. He wasn’t drawn to power or conquest, he was drawn to the stories of honor, of justice, of doing what’s right. He thought that the return of dragons would be the salvation of the realm, that it would fix everything, and what did it lead to? Summerhall. A tragedy.

Look at Rhaegar. He wasn’t some warmongering conqueror—Rhaegar loved his harp, not his sword. He could make people weep just by playing a few notes, by singing a song. His magic was in music, in creating something beautiful in a world constantly obsessed with destruction. But what did Rhaegar do? He gave it all up to chase a prophecy. He abandoned his harp and took up the sword, convinced that the answers lay in some ancient, cryptic vision of three-headed dragons. He died in the mud of the Trident, not as a poet or singer, but as a fool chasing a doomed prophecy.

They thought their destiny was fire, but it’s always been about the songs—the things that outlive the fire. That’s what Aenys represented, what Rhaegar embodied, what Egg loved as a child.

But the Targaryens were too busy chasing dragons to hear the music.

[pessimisticpigeonsworld]

People in the ASOIAF fandom are very obsessed with passive women they can project onto. The obsessions with the characters of show!Alicent, Sansa, Elia, and Helaena are perfect examples of this.

In the show, Alicent is changed from a woman who actively seeks power and heads the scheming of the green faction into a passive victim who watches and reacts to the men around her. And yet, despite this being a much more boring characterization, the show version is vastly more preferred by her stans. They condemn her book character as simply an "evil stepmother trope" while completely ignoring how their fav is just as blank and tropey as they accuse her book counterpart to be. Alicent stans want her to be the show's blank victimized canvas.

Helaena is someone who the show changed very little in the adaptation, because both book and show Helaena have little impact on the plot other than to be victims of their surroundings. Both women are forced to marry Aegon at thirteen and have his children, go through B&C, and are the least active members of the green faction. The show only added elements to make her more tragic: her dreaming and autistic behaviors. Helaena's character makes her the perfect canvas for certain fans to project themselves onto as she simply exists to be victimized and play the dutiful wife/daughter despite her circumstances, just like the show version of her mother.

Elia Martell is a woman who we know very little about. She died thirteen years before the events of ASOIAF and, unlike characters like Rhaegar and Lyanna, she has no pov characters who think about her enough for us to learn anything about her. The only things we know are that she was loved by her family, was in an arranged marriage to Rhaegar, had his two (confirmed) children, and was brutally raped and murdered by Lannister men. She is an unknown character and, again unlike Rhaegar and Lyanna, has no known active role in the events surrounding the Rebellion. Because of these things, she is, again, the perfect blank canvas for people to project on.

Sansa is, despite being a prominent pov character in ASOIAF, a very passive character. She rarely takes action in her circumstances and simply reacts to them while trying to survive. There's nothing wrong with this, she's a young girl who has never had to fight for anything in her life, it's not unexpected or condemnable for her reaction to her circumstances to be this way. However, her passivity is something her stans obsess over. She is praised for being the "perfect lady" and they project their desires to see her rule onto her and how they view her story.

These women have been chosen by these fans because of their passivity and tragedy. They love that the women have suffered in the name of the "duty" they believe is higher than them. Because they love passivity, they hate the women of ASOIAF who are active in their own lives and fight to better their circumstances. Characters like Rhaenyra, Arya, Daenerys, and Lyanna are all massive influences on the world and purposely chose to challenge the patriarchy. Since they did not take their suffering silently, theses certain fans view them as wrong and hate them. They only love the women they can project on and who simply refuse to fight for better lives.

[15-lizards]

ASOIAF Tumblr Simulator

Mutual 1: I need Stannis’ old man hole NOW

Mutual 2: If Dany doesn’t get to plant a lemon tree I am going to kill myself

Mutual 3: THE CYCLES ARE NO LONGER CYCLING EVERYTHING IS SPIRALING ITS ALL BREAKING BECAUSE THE WORLD WAS TOO AFRAID OF MAGIC AND CHANGE AND NOW ITS TOO LATE TO SAVE THIS SOCIETY IT HAS TO BE CLEANSED BY ICE AND BY FIRE!!!!!

Mutual 4: ugh why does no one ever talk about my faves on here :( *the faves in question are Nimble Dick, Cotter Pyke, Misina Whent, and 12 Blackfyres who died in childhood*

Mutuals 5 and 6: hey guys here’s my dead dove erotic Targaryen fan fiction, it’s an mpreg about Maegor getting Aenys pregnant in the dragon pit

Mutual 7: if Jon doesn’t get to see Bran and Arya again I am going to kill myself

Mutual 8: I wrote a little something just for funsies [20 page paper on how ASOIAF is a Greek tragedy]

Mutual 9: Do you guys think Qyburn fucks

Mutual 10: *screenshot of the worst tweet you’ve ever seen* Theon

Mutual 11: Gender is such a complex thing in this story, I see it as a commentary on the inherent violence inescapable in this medieval monarchical society, and how that violence is tied so closely to gender. it is so cruel nobody is safe not even the lovely queen or a golden knight of the kingsguard. Time and time again we see the idea of gender subverted and twisted and played with until GRRM really makes it a character of its own.

Mutual 12: I need Roose Bolton weird blood guy penis NOW

[kingsmoot]

in general i started caring about asoiaf dragons five minutes ago when one of them was presented to me as a big golden retreiver buppy trying to protect his dying dad as he himself died in agony... so idk i'm not the best source on asoiaf dragon meta. to me it has always been very clear that dragons are the ultimate powerful magical force in asoiaf and their extinction was a multi-generational tragedy that hung dark and heavy over the world. i know exactly what people mean when they call the dragons nukes but to me like. the point of the series is that they are being used as nukes. not that they are ontologically nukes. not that they are inhernetly nothing but violent uncontrollable destruction. they can be utilized that way by the people in power but they are not themselves evil. they are actually an inhernetly good force and occupy an essential and irreplaceable part of westeros' magical biosphere. do i agree w the politics of "it's the people CONTROLLING the dragons that are the problem"? no. "guns don't kill people people kill people" is not something i believe in. in the same way that the targaryens positioned themselves as stewards of the realm while crushing its inhabitants into dust by way of base cruelty or total neglect i do not think that they should be stewards of the dragons, the most powerful magical force on all of planetos. but this is not because i think the TARGARYENS are the WRONG PEOPLE to wield these powers. it is because i think monarchy and nuclear weapons should not exist. it's not about giving the right people the divine right of kings and the nuclear launch codes. but, again. the dragons are more complicated. they are not firearms. they are living sentient wild animals. so like. this is a case of my and george's politics not aligning.¯\_(ツ)_/¯ the analogy breaks because it's made on basic assumptions i believe are untrue. this post got away from me kind of but. i do not believe in a reading of the series that just sees the dragons as nukes. george very clearly writes them as a magical Good™️. i think a reading that ignores that aspect of them is purposefully ignoring huge swaths of the text in order to make it simpler.

[lemonhemlock]

It’s very amusing that Condal clearly wants to adapt AFFC, and how people eat it up despite it not being earned. AFFC was the fourth book of the series, after the beheading of Ned, Winterfell falling, Jaime losing his hand, the Red Wedding, the Purple Wedding. All the reasons for why the War of the Five Kings is over, all those people are either dead or scattered to the wind, and yet the war rages on. It’s a pointless war that characters we have grown to know and love undergo intense changes in, notably Jaime and Brienne as they wander through the Riverlands, Arya in Braavos, Sam on the edge of despair as he journeys south. Frankly? Considering that the Dance hasn’t even properly started yet and no one cares about the deaths that have occurs (Luke, Jaehaerys, Rhaenys) the sheer fatalism feels unearned bc no one has gone through gut wrenching tragedy yet. “War is pointless.” Great, but we got another two seasons of this and if the characters think this story is dumb and pointless and are just going through the motions, why should we watch? It’s frankly just too early for everyone to lose their shit bc they haven’t even begin to truly lose everything yet. The characters themselves thinking it’s pointless robs them of motivations bc we still got more than half the story to go! Criston’s monologue in the finale is good but that’s because it’s directly cribbed from Jaime’s “honor is mist” speech but it’s not nearly as earned bc we don’t have any idea how or why he started sleeping with Alicent or even why he became a kingsguard in the first place! Daemon’s Harrenhal arc ended with him somehow obsessed with a prophecy and connecting it back to Rhaenyra without him coming to terms with Viserys not trusting him with the prophecy which is what he was mad about in the first place!

We never actually see anyone react to anything, and the limping plodding along of character development happening off screen so we never see how or why anyone changes is not good! Episode 7 actually gave me some hope bc Rhaenyra seemed to be embracing her role as a leader of there’s dragonriders the gods have given her, but in the next episode she’s literally saying the exact same lines “what would you have me do” and “who will pay the price” which she said at the start of the season! Even Alicent’s about face is unearned bc we don’t actually see her truly fight with her children about anything, really. She just lets them talk in her face and then limps away to camp in a scene that’s “all about rebirth bc baptism and water” without ever getting to the core of anything. It’s a beautiful show full of empty symbolism without a narrative actually underpinning it, borrowing from a better story without understanding what makes that story so good.

You said it more eloquently than I could at the moment. It's not just one or two badly executed points, nothing gets built up, nothing gets resolved or even discussed, we just skip past A TON of vital characterisational changes and are expected to "fill in the gaps". No, they're just bad at writing. You wouldn't be reading a book or watching a show that is so bad at these elements - people are watching because it's ASOIAF.

Why is Alicent so mad? Aegon has barely done anything as king, he's actually tried to help the smallfolk in his audiences! Aemond dismissed her from the Council, sure, which I found a dumb political plot hole, but she hasn't done much to address it? And what exactly has Criston Cole done all season that he is the most reprehensible male character on the show? He didn't vote for Alicent and called her by her name. Does he deserve to die for that? Has Alicent ever been portrayed as the type of character who would react so disproportionately? That's Aemond-level writing. Is Alicent = Aemond now? (She isn't even shown being mad at Criston for sending Arryk after Rhaenyra!)

What Alicent is shown to have a problem with is Aemond burning Aegon. But then again why abandon Aegon to be executed by Rhaenyra? Just overdose him on milk of the poppy and let him die, ffs. Alicent also suspects Criston is not telling her about Aemond's crime, but they part on okay terms? She gives him her favour? How do you go from that to dooming him by revealing his coordinates?

I would really like to pile on-to the AFFC copycat accusations* with Succession rip-offs (my followers are probably tired of hearing me mention it, but it's truly what prestige television should be and it's what we should be comparing HotD to!). First it was teenage!Aegon wanking in the window à la Roman Roy, then Alicent suddenly gets water symbolism this season like Kendall and "I do not wish to hear it"? Do they think they're being cute here?

*not just with Criston, but with Rhaena, too, although you could at least argue there that GRRM himself is also mirroring Jaime and Sansa there

[gojuo]

so since hotd re-introduced the prophecy about the white walkers, danycels and joncels have been having weekly mid-offs over who azor ahai is once again and i really have to laugh. first of all, these people still don't get that being AA is not a good thing, it's a force for destruction so yes it's dany lol. and also seeing weekly comments like 'so jon's parentage didn't mean anything??' his parentage was never going to change anything politically in westeros. he has no way of proving he's the son of rhaegar and lyanna, much less proving he's legitimate. these people really want jon to be aragorn when the whole fucking point of asoiaf was a cynical, subversive response to common fantasy tropes lol.

second, and this is really hard for the fandom to grapple with, especially targ/dany stans, but then only, and, i truly mean only, reason grrm made jon a targ is for the dramatic and poetic irony for when he kills dany in the climax of the story.

the targ with a bastard name, no targ features, no symbols of the targaryen dynasty aka dragons taking out dany, the last 'true' targ that has the official name, the targ features, being born from incest, and being a dragonrider is deeply ironic. the type of irony grrm loves. it's a greek/shakespearean tragedy but this fandom never had the range to appreciate it lol.

this is even more ironic because some of the biggest rhaegar and lyanna stans are daenerys stans who still don't understand that that relationship was nothing but a plot device to produce dany's future killer even though they watched an entire 10 year show that set up that very plot point. the delusion borders on the absurd.

the way we're never getting ADOS so we'll never have GRRM writing all this down in blood confirming it once and for all that their delusions are nothing but moronic fanfics conjured up during their weekly edibles-filled tea parties meaning #those stans will be able to freely continue living in delulu land oh brother it's all just so painful.....

[buttertheflame]

Persuasion, "We Could Live Together" and Romanticism

"Although things can go wrong, time will not change how I feel about you."

After quite a few years of fic writing under my belt, I sometimes get stuck, feeling like I've changed a lot. But on reflection, I always liked to keep it simple. I use my ASOIAF fics to persuasively argue theories that I have and share what I think the overall main series is about. (It's my humble interpretation, that is.) Another way I approach my fics is to bring in those conflicts and challenges — and have the characters forge intimacy to overcome them together. They get angsty, melancholic depending, as well as lighthearted and warm in other places. 

What does this have to do with Jane Austen? I picked up her last novel, Persuasion, a few years ago because "second chance at romance" is right up my alley. Little did I know that on the third or so read, I'd see a lot of parallels between this touching novel and my Jonerys fic A Long Way Home, which starts like this: After a post-Bolton botched assassination attempt, Dany fished Jon out of the Narrow Sea and gave him shelter on Dragonstone to recoup and heal...he went home to Winterfell but delayed returning to her with devastating consequences. Since readers have long wanted me to continue the story, I wanted to give Austen some homage, define a few Romantic characteristics she uses, and where they have and will fit over the span of the "We Could Live Together" fic series.

*spoilers below*

After some research earlier this year, I learned that for many reasons there's long been contention that she was not a Romantic author, more of a Sensibility author, but some people have put forth good arguments that she was both. Literature buffs have eventually conceded that Persuasion may well be Austen’s most melancholic and romantic story, exploring themes of lost love, missed opportunity, heartbreak, and becoming one’s own person. In Persuasion in particular, like Charlotte Bronte, she tackled these paramount Romantic characteristics: marginalized characters, close relation between the mind and body through emotions and reason vs. feeling (ultimately arguing for feeling over reason).

The additional Romantic characteristics in ASOIAF of religion/the supernatural (the two go hand-in-hand), self-knowledge and 'social energy' jumped out to me.

That said, in Persuasion, here are the main Romantic characteristics:

Marginalized character – Anne “just Anne” Elliot who lived under the “partialities and injustices of her [vain] father’s house knew love with her godmother, simply because she had no one else to love,” has already passed the bloom of her youth, yet finds that despite her social isolation, she draws and is drawn to the reappearance of her ex-fiance.

2. Close relation b/w mind and body via emotions – (Shout out to Mrs. Croft who boasts that even when she travels with her loving husband by sea, she never gets seriously ill)

3. Presentation of Reason vs. Feeling - Mr. Elliot, her cousin/father’s heir, she feels, does not speak from the heart and is therefore untrustworthy. When naval Captain Wentworth is restored to her, what emerges is a return, as close as they can be, in the countryside estates and private solars of Bath’s polite society. They fall in love again due to sheer proximity.

As for A Long Way Home, the main Romantic characteristics:

Marginalized characters in their feudal system – at first, neither Jon nor Dany were able to seize opportunities based on merit or achieve accomplishments due to competency; through sheer will, faith and dreams they were eventually made to be the hope of others, then found hope in one another.

Close relation between mind and body through emotions - the sensing of the other’s countenance celebrates the link between their bodies (heh) and hearts; in addition, Dany’s dreams and scrutiny of Jon’s Stark bloodline open up and fill in more magic lore, initiated by the tragedy that is Viserion’s death.

Reason vs. Feeling manifesting in the choices characters make:

Jon is in crisis - Reason (treated the incest discovery by Bran with reason, “I will not tell her yet, I will delay it if possible”) vs Feeling (there are worse things to do, worse things to be) (this won) Dany is the Rock -  Reason (considered, “maybe it is time to take steps away from him”)  vs Feeling (wishing not to be a ball and chain; carry the burden; not blame him) (this won)

As for similar themes in A Long Way Home, I'll drop a couple of lines in no particular order:

Lost Love: "We used to say 'if one of us should leave the other, I bet you'll always love me.'" He wanted a life with her. ... I will tell her when the time is right. Or else I'll lose her and this will have been for nothing. Missed Opportunity: "I know that my delay has cost us so much, but it's not the end is it?" "You've known for months! How could you? It's my right to know I'm not alone in this world!" Heartbreak: Yet not hearing him, now, only served to irk her in a way that felt much like a broken heart. "This hurts me, too." Becoming One's Own Person: "Your sister tried to apologize for you. I do not accept it. You are the master of your own life, Jon." “I am Jon Snow, son of Rhaegar of House Targaryen and Lyanna of House Stark. Nephew to Lord Eddard of House Stark. And nephew to you, Queen Daenerys of House Targaryen.”

Throughout the fic, I had fun touching base on the love vs. duty conflict George weaves so well with Jon. He had used his father Ned Stark's values to parse out difficult but straightforward decisions. Stay or Go? YOU SAID YOUR NIGHT'S WATCH VOWS, SO STAY! Although, like Jaime Lannister, he's realized it's sometimes more important to sacrifice name, reputation, even honor, for a greater cause--many months later in Winterfell, when the discovery of his parentage was made known to him by Bran, King Jon assumed his duty to his House and the North was in direct conflict with his love and sexual desire for Queen Daenerys. It caused him to choke like nothing else had. They entered a period of estrangement and division until he returned to her and eventually let her join in him in his crisis.

In the end... Rather than sticking to his father’s values--Jon takes up the risk of loving Dany as a man loves as woman, for a greater cause. To be a husband, a father, a king. Those are no small things to be. Those are the things that give his life meaning! He does not care about the right or wrong of it, so long as they are together. Dany, of course, happily concurs and wishes to only keep his heart.

And so I definitely credit this line from Persuasion as having pretty much inspired the direction in the continuance of the fic series:

“There they returned again into the past, more exquisitely happy, perhaps, in their reunion than when it had been first projected; more tender, more tried, more fixed in a knowledge of each other’s character, truth, and attachment; more equal to act, more justified in acting.” (Chapter 23, Persuasion)

In the end, the time away from each other has caused them to become even more mature leaders, managing realm-wide risks wisely, not risking those responsibilities for the love of one person. However, Jon has still got an inferiority complex and Dany still runs from trauma.

The next fic installment, In Full Bloom, will bring more tests to come, too heavy to carry alone, so they'll get through them together. And though my headcanon endgame is in sight, before then, they will have the chance to live together.

[dionysism]

hii, if you ever feel like it, i think it would be awesome if you made a list of greek mythology books (the ones you like or recommend, both tragedies and comedies) in order you'd prefer to have read them. as a complete beginner who's very interested in getting into greek mythology books and likes your blog, i think i'd like that very much :)

if you're a beginner i can definitely give you some recommendations!! the order thing is tricky because i mean, the timeline gets kinda wonky with greek mythos. it's a whole variety of mythos from different people, in different parts of ancient greece, at different points in time in ancient greece, so it doesn't all neatly follow one easily understandable timeline like a multi part book series would (like say, asoiaf or the vampire chronicles.. not that tvc isn't also kinda messy but i digress 💀) so it's not like i can be like "oh you should read x euripides play which would come after x sophocles play followed chronologically by this aeschylus play" even with the iliad and the odyssey, you could read the odyssey first if you wanted. i might even recommend that you do. the iliad has a lot of names and will go into multiple pages of lore on a character you will literally never see again and also the cataloguing the ships it just can be a tad overwhelming if you're new to it all 😭 for someone who's never read it before i'd usually recommend the fagles translation (for both)

it also depends on what you want to get into. greek mythology is big i mean i could list like a hundred different things for you to read. so you like both tragedy & comedy, thats a good start! are there any specific characters you're particularly curious about? i could always recommend you stuff i know of that features them

but just going generally, if you wanna hold off on the iliad and the odyssey and maybe start smaller then i really recommend plays. they're usually a fairly short read. i mentioned some plays (and translations) here (lots of euripides lol) but also i'll throw in a few more for you here and like i said, it really doesn't matter what order you read these in. you also don't have to read the translations i recommend, they're just the ones i have read and thus can speak on. honestly i recommend looking at the different options of translators & using that like couple pages of preview they give you online to see who's you think you want to read. 

tragedies:

oedipus rex, oedipus at colonus, antigone (i read antigone solo, and then went back and read the other two, but you can read them in the order listed too) all by sophocles. i've read the fagles translation and i honestly can't remember who's antigone i read originally. i borrowed it from my local library in high school sorry, but fagles' is really good!

trojan women (i read james morwood trans) & hecuba (i read william arrowsmith trans) both by euripides. these do take place post-iliad if that matters to you and you'd like to read the iliad first.

ajax (also takes place post-iliad) and philoctetes (the trojan war is still ongoing here but it is also after the events of the iliad as achilles is already dead) both by sophocles. you could read ajax first since it's mentioned in philoctetes that odysseus has achilles armor already so you would assume this is after the events of ajax. for ajax i read john moore's & philoctetes i read david grene.

comedies:

i'll admit i haven't read as many comedies yet! really i've only read aristophanes. i already recommended lysistrata in the other ask i linked so let me give you a couple different ones.

the frogs. this is about dionysus going to the underworld to get euripides back and save athens. it's a political satire. also everything about what aristophanes and euripides had going on is hilarious. i read david barret's (updated) translation

women at the thesmophoria. this one is a play in which euripides gets accused of misogyny and asks agathon to dress up as a woman and spy on this all women festival but then agathon thinks the will get discovered and so euripides in law goes in his place. i also read david barret's for this one.

that's actually all. lol. i'm hoping to read the birds by him but i haven't yet. i read the clouds too but it was so long ago i don't even remember it i'd have to reread before saying anything

bonus: this isn't a play but if you're curious about the gods and more stories involving them you should check out the homeric hymns! i have the jules cashford translation. there's also the orphic hymns which i read right here

hopefully this is helpful? sorry if it's.. a lot 😭

[forcebookish]

What drew you to Burn Notice?

EXCELLENT QUESTION.................... i don't remember hahaha

nah ok iirc i caught it on tv when season 6 was airing and got hooked and i think i watched the whole thing up to that point in, like, a week. i don't remember what particularly caught me, but at the time, i was living with my friend and wasn't in school or working, so i didn't have a lot going on and found it strangely soothing. i still do! it's my go-to comfort show. something about michael's deep, steady voice, especially on the VOs, and all the whump and found family was (and is) really relaxing to me. and i like that they help people who no one else can help and that it's not afraid to be sentimental. you know, it's this perfect blend of comedy, action, tragedy, drama, mystery, and romance.

around the same time, i was also watching flashpoint, which is another series about veterans, snipers, and found family with a lot of whump lol for some reason, i'm really drawn to those kind of characters and stories. bucky is my fave in marvel; widowmaker and ana are my faves in overwatch; i'm one of six people who actually really like riley in btvs lol

maybe because it's people who are expected to be detached, emotionless, or not easily affected by their dire circumstances, but are in fact deeply affected and emotional despite their best efforts are really appealing to me. (ok, re: widowmaker, she is, by design, detached and emotionless, but only because she was brainwashed and even asked to be; plus, that just opens up great potential for emotion breakdowns in fanfiction! :D) (hm, i also apparently like brainwashing plots 🤔)

i also LOVVVVE mom characters, especially overly devoted and protective ones who have complicated or abusive relationships with their kids. maddie is tied with michael for my fave; mags is my fave in justified; cersei is one of my faves in asoiaf. basically, i like mama bears who are at risk of eating their cubs. again, i think it has to do with that dichotomy and contradictory nature. moms are expected to be protective of their kids, yes, but when it's to the detriment of the very kids they do all these shitty things for, that scratches a particular itch to me.

i tend to like characters who not only have layers, but have facets of their personalities that might not jive together or mesh well; they have sides of themselves that they have to fight or reconcile with. they're hard and soft. michael is an army ranger veteran, an ex-spy, a killer; he's also an abuse survivor, a lover, has a soft spot for kids. sam is a navy seal veteran, a forger, a killer; he's also a sugar baby, a booze hound, a goofball. fiona is an ex-IRA guerilla, a bomber, an arms dealer; she's also a lover, a grieving sister, someone with a fierce moral compass. jesse is a badass counter intelligence agent, a killer, a ball of rage; he's also a grieving son, a whiner, kind of a dork. i love their inner-conflicts and how those really do inform the way they interact with one another. i love that they have history and intense fights or issues, but always come back and forgive each other.

i also tend to like stories with major character death? i guess i just like high stakes! it really is the whole package for me! 😂😂

ANYWAY........................................................... thanks for popping in, obviously i love rambling about stuff i like <3333

[attonitos-gloria]

jb for the ship asks?

jaime and brienne are truly a breaking of fourth wall. it is george turning to his audience and going "you DO get what is going on in this world, don't you? tell me you get it." he does that with tyrion in ADWD, too, and i just love it when george goes meta.

i think they are the most romantic thing to ever happen in asoiaf because of the way they are the embodiment of the true problem of love and courtly romance in westeros which is patriarchy and misogyny and the absolutely insane cages of gender these characters are in. it's very hard for me to get jaime and brienne without jaime and cersei as contrast. this is a jaime/brienne/cersei situation.

what if you grew up as a man, believing you were born to reclaim the fate of a true man - knighthood and glory - and it turns out in real life this just means violence and bloodshed. what if you cope with the horrors of feudalism and patriarchy by blending into one single golden unit with your twin sister who is you who are your sister and that goes on forever. what if you fed each other's cruelty, and bred monsters into the world, and death, and it's all perfect and golden because you're each other's reflection.

what if you often thought if you were a woman you'd be your sister because who else could you possibly be - but of course you'd never be a woman hahahaha this is crazy. of course you are not a woman. (but your sister is, and your sister is you. so what does that even mean? you never think about it, you just disappear inside.) what if your sister is trapped in a house of violence you can only bear witness to, but do nothing about, even with the sword in hand and a white cloak around your shoulders, because this is the fate of all women - marriage and motherhood at whatever cost. what if this isn't even the first time you bear witness to a king being violent to a queen in this same castle in this same bedroom. and your sister thinks if she were a man she'd be you but hahahahah this is crazy, obviously, of course your sister is not a man. (but you are a man and you are your sister. and she is being sacrificed in the altar of gender conformity that is monarchy and you are standing by the door because you are a man and you are a knight - you are thinking, what does that even mean? you disappear inside again.)

what if you believe this is really all there is to being a knight, to being a man, to being a person?

and then what if you meet a woman who is, as far as you can understand it, a better man than you: by being a better knight, by simply being a better human being?

pairing of all time. they don't even need to fuck for it to be real. i think there's a undertone of tragedy in them - i can't imagine jaime ending this series as a happily married man to brienne, i don't even know if both of them will survive, but like. i'm not expecting the next books for them to be canon because in my head jaime and brienne are already a canon relationship of true courtly romance.

(Post edit: might be the reason why I usually don't read fluffy fanfiction of them because it often goes the way of... they will get married and have babies and rule casterly rock together! and while I think it's okay to forge happy endings for beloved characters - i'm a sansa/tyrion shipper, i do this all the time lol - i think there is something apocalyptic about this ship. Like they have the power to ruin this system. Spiritually. I mean, i still read braime fic because the writers are just too good but. I like endings when one of them die. Or jaime goes to the Wall! I like this one too. Or at least they escape Westeros together lol anyway. It is also why i'm also EXTREMELY wary of some jaime ships who just play harder into the gender conformity that i think jaime and brienne are, canonically, breaking and ruining.)

so. basically there is no one else for jaime and brienne but jaime and brienne themselves. perfect pairing. i'd say maybe the only canon pairing ever

[shierak-inavva]

oh god. oh boy.

AS YOU MAY ALL REMEMBER, i have the Big Complicated ASOIAF/dragon family AU that i keep populating with different ships and whew boy, here we are once again.

sooooo.......this isn't actually targaryen-centric directly--this is actually set in the valyrian freehold just before the doom of valyria because my dumb little monkey brain was like 'what if sauron in this au had a hand in that?' i mean, volcanoes and general apocalyptic chaos....anyways

so their part of The Big Dragon AU is BEFORE all the others--and their story is a fun little doomed romance between the daughter of one of the 40 dragonlord houses and a sorcerer who craves power that ends in tragedy and a blood curse on the targaryens (👀) through their union. and the doom of valyria, y'know, in the background.

[franzkafkagf]

okay so i want to hear about your take on aegon i know you like him and all (so do i no matter how much i wish not to) but whyy

yess thanks for asking, I love being insane about him<3

I think Aegon is such a wildly tragic character– many asoiaf characters are but I'm so drawn specifically to him; he didn't want power or responsibility or the crown. It all was bestowed upon him against his will, and he shouldn't; putting on the crown is his definitive death sentence. The coronation scene has got to be one of my favorites in the season– he is quite literally walking up to be butchered like a sacrificial lamb, there are tears streaking his cheeks in the scene! I love the tragedy of it, the way it couldn't have been avoided anyways; his fate was sealed from the very start! He was quite literally dead from the very beginning.

I'm going off a mix from the book and the show but I actually love what they did with the character in the show? The book version does have some hard-hitting moments from him that are missing ("What sort of brother steals his sister's birthright?") but there wasn't that much there in terms of characterization and relationships. And wow, did they deliver on that in the show; I'm gonna give whoever came up with his mommy issues a forehead kiss.

Because YES! He and Alicent are reflections of one another– Alicent suffered under the heavy boot of Otto, turned into the perfect daughter, turned into the perfect queen for him. She recognizes that this was wrong and abusive of him, then she turns around and does the same thing to Aegon– the poison DOES drip through, the wheel is NOT broken!! It's BRILLIANT.

@atopvisenyashill put a GREAT tag under one of my posts–

#he looks like her and he’s weak like her so why can’t he get strong like her.

While Alicent persevered, Aegon crumbled under the pressure. He is miserable when we meet him– and he should be! He is unfit for the role of king, but it is his destiny nonetheless, everybody tells him so. It destroys him.

It's so sad too and I cannot help but to feel bad for him. No one knows where he is in ep 9, I don't think he has anyone to confide in; it must be lonely. Everybody seems to have written him off already– he is a drunk and a failure at being heir, being a son, being a father. He tries to prove them wrong later, and does in some aspects.

His loneliness plays into another aspect of him that I really love; his desperation to be loved. He will never be enough for anybody, he probably knows it deep down.

"[Aegon is] desperate to be loved but destined to be hated." – Tom Glynn-Carney

Obviously there is the carriage scene with Alicent that shows this. But I also really love the moment in his coronation, where he basks in the people's affection and cheers. He is poised to bleed out in front of the throne, he was crying and fighting for his life not to take the crown just minutes before. But now he's here and they love him and he can't help but love that.

He takes the crown to protect his family (the show does hint at that with Alicent telling him as much in ep. 6– in the book it's much more explicit with Criston pressuring him on the day of the coronation itself) and then his son DIES because of it! And he drinks and rages and drinks some more; he must've blamed himself. He goes to battle, flies too high (figuratively), and he FALLS; he burns and falls to the ground. He isn't made to be king. He knows. He does it anyways.

"You have already written yourself into legend, you survived dragonfire" – Larys Strong in season 2 (probably)

He survives, he is gone for over a year, unable to do anything but he SURVIVES. He escapes the capital, takes Dragonstone, he falls AGAIN, he loses most of his family; but he still goes on. Fueled by what? Maybe anger, or bitterness or just pure lust for revenge. It doesn't matter. He must've realized somewhere on the way that this was always meant to go this way, ever since he put the conqueror's crown on. It doesn't matter.

And then he dies and it's not grand or spectacular or anything like that. He drinks poisoned wine, nobody even sees him die, they only find him after. It's so uniquely lonely.

[patrocles]

hii, i saw on ur twitter account where u said that the amethyst empress/bloodstone emperor theory was dumb can u elaborate on why im just genuinely curious because i personally find the theory plausible and every person i've met is of the same opinion ur like the only person i've met who dislikes it and im just so curious on why?

hey there!!

so first let me just say that if i sounded dickish and mean spirited about it, that was not my intention. i never wanna yuck anyones yum, i personally love a wacky theory!

(also when i say ‘you’ i mean the general, not you personally)

don’t get me wrong, there are parallels or similarities between the two side by side, but I think it kinda ends there? i think a lot of the DEEP lore of twoiaf, one can read as having echoes and similarities all over over the map, but i dont think is meant to be taken entirely literal.

but really, why i don’t like that theory is because i think it totally misinterprets what the Dance was about and why it’s important to the overall lore of asoiaf and the themes of the main series.

i think it also kind of unfairly paints the story as Good v Evil, which again, wildly misinterprets and simplifies the Dance as a big evil done to Rhaenyra personally by an evil little brother Aegon.

it’s about The Family and how it tore itself apart under the weight of its own hubris and the feudal system that built the tinderbox for the whole thing to implode eventually.

it’s very much about the unfolding tragedy one after another after another until all that’s left are two deeply traumatized children. it’s about the dangers of dragons and why history doesn’t remember them fondly. it’s the pretext on which arianne tries to put myrcella on the throne. it’s about the needless deaths of innocents over a family squabble that got out of control, and the fundamental flaw of a feudalist system that nation could be torn apart because of an inheritance dispute. it’s a History Story. it’s not really about the Long Night at all.

Plus this kinda wildly misinterprets Aegon as a character? he has a lot of flaws, for sure, but the harbinger of primordial evil because he got caught up in a bit of legal drama? that’s giving him way too much credit lol.

And again, I really dont care about theories, even if they’re ones i dont personally agree with. i’ve been in the general asoiaf sphere for a very long time so that’s nothing new. but i think what irked me about this one, is for a number of people, having this specific theory and framework in mind totally alters the way they watch and engage with the show at all.

so like when the posters were dropped, people are genuinely mad that it was rhaenyra and alicent and not rhaenyra and aegon bc duh its about This Theory … and it’s like? no? you made that up..

so if people are watching the show with that theory in mind, then it does completely cloud how you think about these characters and i think restricts one’s engagement to a Good/Evil dichotomy. and if i’m being really honest, a lot of people who i’ve seen go really hard on this theory are people who already hated alicent/greens and invented it to justify diminishing alicent’s role in the story, and amplifying why rhaenyra is basically the main character of twoiaf, second to dany. which is doing just too much.

but the big, and i think the most important one, is that it’s absolutely absurd for people to confidently and definitively say that THIS is what the show is about and the marketing/show not aligning with that is a total failure based on niche asoiaf lore that most show!watchers don’t even know about, wasn’t even mentioned in the previous series, and only exists in a separate book of lore and stories that may not even be true anyways.