#basically just avengers children's crusade

[sparkoflena]

The best part about Wiccan being introduced in the MCU official is that it continues to give me a bigger excuse to scream about the Young Avengers.

First America, Kate, & Cassie. Now Billy.

[fruityhahn]

more teen theories!!

okay yall, i've got a new teen theory. there will be spoilers for episode 4 so please watch that first (even though they're minor spoilers)

also this theory includes info about wiccan from the comics (specifically young avengers: the children’s crusade) but don’t worry if you haven’t read it! i will be providing photos of the relevant text bubbles.

in episode 4 rio tells agatha “that boy isn’t yours”. and i do know about the funko spoilers but… what if rio isn’t lying and teen is both wiccan AND nicholas.

let me explain.

so wiccan (aka billy) is the child of wanda but even the scarlet witch can’t create a soul. she used the mind stone in her to create the hex version of vision but nothing is said in wandavision about the twins. but we do know that the souls of the boys will eventually be wiccan and speed (sooner rather than later if spoilers and rumours are to be believed).

here’s two text bubbles from the comics describing this:

basically, these quotes imply that wanda’s twins were souls that existed and then found themselves in new bodies later, so wiccan isn’t the biological son of wanda but he still is because of his soul’s past.

this is further demonstrated by a later scene in the comics where wanda herself confirms she didn’t create the twins, instead they were “lost souls” that she made and eventually set free:

now, lets talk about nicholas. we really don’t know much about him except most witches think agatha traded him for the darkhold but we know from episode 4 that it was probably rio who took him. jen says in episode 3 that no one knows that happened to him but he might be dead, a demon, or an agent of mephisto. he also seems to have disappeared young given his room in episode 1.

let’s start with the mephisto thing. here’s a description from the comics stating that mephisto is the one who had the twins souls captured:

kind of interesting that mephisto was mentioned in that specific scene in agatha all along when this is what the comics say about wiccan’s soul.

basically what i’m saying is that since no one knows what happened to nicholas it’s possible he could’ve been a “lost soul” and even one of the ones that became wanda’s twins. in this way, teen could potentially be both nicholas and billy but he isn’t either of them completely, he just shares his soul with them.

so while teen isn’t agatha’s nicholas (as rio states) he still could be nicholas and also be wiccan.

i hope that made sense even though it’s a bit confusing or that you at least enjoyed reading this okay bye

[opalish1]

Kate Bishop Reading List

Long ago I made myself a (roughly chronological) list of Kate Bishop comics, and I recently updated it and figured I might as well share. There are some fairly minor appearances included; just know I cut out SO MANY MORE.

Also, I don't care how minor the appearance is, if Deadpool and Kate are in the same issue then I'm including it.

YOUNG AVENGERS ERA

NOTES: This is the most streamlined segment, because I've read these through enough that I more or less remember which appearances have substance and which are just Kate's nostril on page 16.

-Young Avengers vol 1 #1-8

-Young Avengers Special (one-shot)

-Young Avengers vol 1 #9-12

-Civil War 1 #1-2

-Civil War: Runaways/Young Avengers #1-4

-Civil War 1 #3-7

-Winter Soldier: Winter Kills (one-shot)

-Captain America vol 5 #26

-Civil War Fallen Son: Death of Captain America #2-3 & #5

-Young Avengers Presents #1-6

-Secret Invasion: Runaways/Young Avengers #1-3

-Dark Reign: Young Avengers #1-4

-Nomad #4 (set during Civil War)

-Siege Young Avengers (one-shot)

-I Am An Avenger #1 & #5

-Avengers: Children's Crusade #1-4

-Avengers: Children's Crusade Young Avengers #1

-Avengers: Children's Crusade #5-9

HAWKEYE DUO/YA2 ERA

NOTES: I once tried to work out the exact timeline for Hawkeye v4 and YA v2; I've broken things up according to that timeline. YMMV on accuracy and you certainly don't have to read in that order. I in no way tried to integrate HvD or anything listed after that into a coherent timeline. Also I don't entirely remember how large of a role Kate plays in the Patsy Walker/Ant-Man issues, sorry.

-Hawkeye vol 4 #1-5, #7, #6 & #17

-Young Avengers vol 2 #1-15

-Hawkeye vol 4 #8-9; #10-13 are concurrent

-Hawkeye Annual (one-shot)

-Hawkeye vol 4 #14, #16, #15, #18-22

-Hawkeye vs Deadpool #1-4

-All-New Hawkeye vol 1 #1-5

-Gwenpool Special #1

-Astonishing Ant-Man vol 1 #1

-All-New Hawkeye vol 2 #1-6

-Patsy Walker v1 #2

-Old Man Logan v2 #2-4

-Astonishing Ant-Man vol 1 #6

-Civil War 2: Choosing Sides #2-3

-Uncanny Avengers vol 3 #13

-Civil War 2 #4-6

-Year of Marvels: October Infinite Comic (one-shot)

-Spider-Man/Deadpool vol 1 #12

KATE BISHOP SOLO/WCA ERA

NOTES: Gonna be honest, I never really tried to make a timeline for the concurrent pubs during this time, so...whatever. And, uh, I don't honestly remember how much of a role she plays in the Wasp stuff, so I included those to be safe.

-Hawkeye vol 5 #1-16

-Unbelievable Gwenpool vol 1 #14-15

-America vol 1 #1, #5-6

-Generations: Hawkeye & Hawkeye

-Despicable Deadpool #299

-West Coast Avengers vol 3 #1-10

-Season's Beating (one-shot)

-Unstoppable Wasp v2 #7

-War of the Realms: Journey Into Mystery #1-5

-Fearless vol 1 #1

-Avengers vol 8 #22

-Death's Head vol 2 #2-4

-Gwenpool Strikes Back vol 1 #3-5

-Empyre vol 1 #4-5

-Empyre Aftermath Avengers (one-shot)

-America Chavez: Made in the USA #1-2, 5

THE (MOSTLY) UNREAD ERA

NOTES: Aside from the H:KB solo, this is basically my to-read list, so it's entirely possible some of these appearances are extremely underwhelming. I did try to cut out anything that seemed SUPER light on Kate content, but that also means I might've cut some comics where she has more of a presence as well.

-Black Widow vol 8 #10

-It's Jeff Infinity Comic #1, #6-7, #9-12, #14, #18, #22, #25, #28

-Lucky the Pizza Dog Infinity Comic (one-shot)

-Hawkeye: Kate Bishop vol 1 #1-5

-Alligator Loki Infinity Comic vol 1 #13, #15

-Marvel Meow and Pizza Dog Infinity Comic #1-4

-Women of Marvel vol 4 #1

-Avengers: War Across Time vol 1 #5

-Captain Marvel vol 10 #50

-Marvel's Voices: Pride vol 3 #1

-Avengers Unlimited Infinity Comic vol 1 #58-59

-Extreme Venomverse vol 1 #5

-Women of Marvel vol 5 #1

-Infinity Paws Infinity Comic #1, #10

-Avengers vol 9 #14-16

-Marvel Mutts Infinity Comic vol 1 #11

-Blood Hunters vol 1 #2

-Venom War: It's Jeff (oneshot)

SOME ALTERNATE UNIVERSE KATES

NOTES: Only really including the ones I've read or that are on my to-read list.

-Secret Wars Journal #1 (Lady Katherine AU)

-Siege vol 2 #1-4 (Lady Katherine AU)

-Secret Wars Too (Lady Katherine AU)

-All-New Wolverine vol 1 #33-35 (Old Woman Laura timeline)

-Old Man Hawkeye vol 1 #5-12 (Old Man Hawkeye timeline)

WRAP UP

It's probably pretty obvious which comics are the most important to read (both YA runs, all the Hawkeye solos, etc) so I wanted to mention some of my favorites you might be tempted to overlook

-Winter Soldier: Winter Kills oneshot. Kate and the YA meet Bucky.

-Civil War Fallen Son: Death of Captain America #3. Clint and Kate's first meeting.

-Hawkeye vs Deadpool #1-4. I love this title so much. Kate and Clint team up with Deadpool for the first but not last time.

-Despicable Deadpool #299. That time Deadpool threatens the Hawkeyes and Kate says he wouldn't shoot her and he agrees that he wouldn't, he'd just shoot Clint twice.

And for MCU Kate fans, shoutout to Black Widow vol 8 #10 for being the only (...so far as I know) comic to place Yelena and Kate are in the same room.

[paintsplash1712]

I don't know if it's been confirmed if the Young Avengers are happening in the MCU yet but here's my list of who the members should be:

1. Billy Kaplan/Maximoff

This is pretty obvious for YA fans since he and Teddy are the most reoccurring members of the team and Billy's pretty important (with The Children's Crusade, becoming the Demiurge and basically starting the conflict of the second run of YA comics).

2. Tommy Shepherd/Maximoff

Though Tommy didn't appear in the comics until after the original YA formed, I think it would be fun if he was a member early on so he can bond with Billy and kids his own (physical) age. It'd also be nice since Pietro never got the chance to be an Avengers himself, Tommy can fill that role.

3. Kate Bishop

Pretty obvious with this one. She's definitely the most popular Young Avenger, people loved her in the Hawkeye show and she's a founding member (technically) so she'll probably be the one to make the team.

4. Elijah Bradley/The Patriot

I mean, why else have him cameo in FatWS if you're not going to do anything with him. He's the leader of the Young Avengers! His story is so interesting with him feeling like he's lesser because he's not superpowered and having to live up to his family and the Captain America legacy. BRING HIM ON!

5. Riri Williams/IronHeart

Though Riri wasn't ever in the Young Avengers since they've completely halted the Kang Saga we'll probably never see Nate/Iron Lad ☹️ it makes sense to have her instead.

She was really fun in Wakanda Forever and I think she'd have great chemistry with the other members and could give Kate or Cassie or Eli some updates? But with the Ironheart show coming, we'll see what happens with her.

6. Cassie Lang/Stature

So I haven't watched the third Ant-Man movie because it looked so bad but it'd feel wrong not to have Cassie on the team considering her story and her being a founding member (technically).

Let's hope it doesn't end the same for her (Poor Cassie).

7. Teddy Altman/Hulkling

With how the creators of Agatha All Along weren't allowed to use Teddy and had to replace him, this obviously means they have a plan for him. I like to think the YA will come together to save or protect Teddy like the arc in the comics (with the skrulls kidnapping him and all) so he could be a proper member of the team by the second movie/season.

Also if you're gonna have Billy, you have to have his husband.

8. America Chavez

I have to include my favourite member of the comics YA! She's super important and with Billy on the team that importance will only grow since a Future Billy/Demiurge will create her home dimension. Also I just think she'd get a long great with the girls of the team especially Cassie and Kate.

[brw]

do you have any wanda recs?

Sure! I'll try to keep it to the main stories in her history, but if you want some of the lesser known issues let me know and I'll include those!

X-Men V1 #4–#11 (you can also read Avengers Origins: Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver)

Avengers V1 #16

The Celestial Madonna arc (Avengers V1 #124–#135, Giant Size Avengers #2–#4. Most imporant issues are Avengers #128 and Giant Size Avengers #4)

Marvel Fanfare #6

Marvel Fanfare #58 B Story

Avengers V1 #185–#187

Marvel Team-Up #125

Marvel Comics Presents #60-#164

Vision and the Scarlet Witch Vols 1 & 2

Power Man and Iron Fist #102

You can read West Coast Avengers V2 basically onwards from #34, but the Vision Quest (#42-#46) and Darker Than Scarlet (#53–#64, Avengers West Coast annual 5) arcs are the important ones.

Scarlet Witch V1

Marvel Comics Presents V1 #143–#144

Avengers Vol 3 by Kurt Busiek, you can stop reading by the time Geoff Johns takes over.

I don't like most of the 2000s and early 2010s Wanda stuff to be honest, and I'm assuming you're familiar with House of M so I'd just skip to Avengers: Children's Crusade.

Scarlet Witch V2

Avengers: No Road Home (technically a sequel to Avengers: No Surrender, which you can read if you want but that arc has a LOT of characters so Wanda's involvment isn't consistent)

Darkhold (just the main series, you don't need to read any of the tie-ins)

Scarlet Witch V3, Scarlet Witch & Quicksilver, Scarlet Witch V4

Exiles Vol 2 is an entirely AU series, but Wanda's in it and it has a special place in my heart.

Hope this is good anon!

[willowthewiisp]

More random thoughts about the lore in the dlc and how I'm trying to murder board it

Messmer and Marika mirror Mary and Jesus but in a fucked up way. Messmer quite literally sacrifices himself for his mother's sins so she could be a saint to the golden order. There's literally a Madonna esque statue of her and messmer as a baby. The name Marika is literally just another version of Mary. I don't even think messmer has a father like there was no player two Marika must have made a deal with either the serpent god or the fell god (and I'm more inclined to say the latter) and in return gifted her a child she could raise to slaughter her hated enemy. It's pretty clear the shaman village and the humans in general were more than likely all women. They were long lived but seldom born. Hard to have babies without men unfortunately. This ties back into erdtree births too and why Melina seemed so confused about how boc actually came from his mother. Now idk about Melina. She's still a big mystery. But it's implied people were literally reborn through the erdtree and through it's sap. The amber egg should be clue enough considering it holds the rune of rebirth and amber is fossilized tree sap so... Messmer was definitely a miraculous conception sort of deal, but I think because he was born of a single god like miquella and malenia, he was born cursed and afflicted too, just by the serpent god. It's why the snake is so reviled and hated. Marika hated what the snake did to him but as she stripped away her humanity she couldn't care less so long as he bathed the belurat settlement in blood. I also think this is why the fell god and the giants cursed "radagon" with red hair because Marika betrayed them and killed their god whom she had made a deal with to have a child.

Messmer was the sacrificial lamb she raised just for the slaughtering, and Melina has the same unfortunate fate as well, reduced to being kindling to burn the great tree. Who her "father" is and when she was born is a mystery considering she was clearly messmers sister, but she doesn't seem to have the same origins, or maybe she does and is also afflicted like miquella and malenia. Another cycle.

The only child she seemed to genuinely love was godwyn. He was perfect, golden, and the scion of her empire. His death drove her insane. Sucks she didn't go mad over messmer who literally took a huge bullet for her and welp we kill him too. She cared for miquella in some way shape or form considering there's an item (I forget the name) that basically says Marika blessed miquellas journey to the lands of shadow and his journey to godhood. Which is odd in retrospect. Also calls into question if godwyn was actually first born or not, but honestly I'm starting to think he still was, mostly because it seems like messmer was apart of the family for some time if he was like an older brother to radahn (I guess that explains why rellana loves him?) so the massacre must not have occured until after godwyn was born because I firmly believe her sins against the hornsent cursed her children with Godfrey and resulted in the omen twins. Godwyn must have been born at the very least because then messmer at least had some sort of chance at meeting radahn and interacting with him since radagon was married to rennala at this point. But that also must mean the war with the giants wasn't the final battle because radagons red hair came from that and kinda need radagon to have radahn so he can be a brother to messmer. I think this may be even confirms radahn is the oldest? Considering the crusades were hidden away from history, it would make sense history would call the fire giant war the last one to solidify marikas rule. Also would make sense why the fucking giants are ALL impaled like c'mon now.... But Marika after seeing how powerful her precious little boy was gave him the singular task of avenging her and slaughtering those monsters. And boy howdy did he. But then she locked him away. Threw him away, threw Godfrey away...she throws the rest of her children away after godwyn is killed. But messmers crusade made the hornsent curse Marika and that's when I think the twins were born. They had to of been while radagon had radahn and after messmer because remember godwyn fought the dragons during the time when the erdtree and golden order was still new. Either way she throws her cursed omen children in the trash, and I'm fully convinced if it hadn't been for Godfrey they would of been killed. Why wouldn't she want them dead after all. Would also make sense after the twins were born she began to have doubts and started to deep dive into how the fuck her perfect order allowed the crucible to come through and how omens still exist. It all culminates in godwyn being murdered and she loses her ever loving mind. But these are just thoughts because I've been up all night suffering side effects of a antidepressant and I'm going nuts

[the-wayward-arc]

In the Main Primarch au, is Jaune a loyalist or traitor?

Confused what’s the actual canon version.

I honestly haven't settled on it, original ending had him go renegade and die, so here are the old notes copy and pasted from the document for the original ending.

"Jaune and about 80% of his legion die on Remnant along with most of Remnant population. Once the heresy was finished, the Great Scouring commenced immediately and a great forced was mustered against Remnant due to how Jaune set about the defenses. Jaune had already started the planet wide evacuation of Remnant, recalling all Remnant Citizens off world home to evacuate. By the time the evacuation was well underway, the fleets of the Ultramarines, Space wolves and White Scars attacked but were meant with the Remnant Fleet. Unfortunately the fight spilled down onto Remnant, with a planet wide assault. Jaune, his legion, and Remnant Guard held back the assault as best as they could as the evacuation continued. Jaune ordered aspirants, young marines, a handful of Dreadnoughts to escape on the Juniper. They were the Legions future now.

Only about a 1/3 of the population was able to escape, his friends, and Pyrrha along with their children escaped on the Juniper and other ships jump into deep space with their recently created Light drives, which while slower than warp travel, is much safer. They vanished to places which not even the Imperium would find them again.

Jaune would be killed by Leman Russ, but his death would then activate a weapon on Remnant that gases the whole planet with an immesnly powerful viral weapon. The remaining population, his remaining marines died and any Loyalists unable to get off world died. The entire planet consumed by the deadly fog that made it impossible for anyone to land on, from space marines to even the adeptus mechanicus, all would perish save for the ecosystem itself. Nature would retake Remnant. For 10,000 years, the Imperium would Station a chapter of Astartes to watch the "dead" world, as if waiting for something."

This idea basically opened up a sequel story with Remnant Knights returning during the great rift, taking back their Ancestral homeworld. However it wasn't a good return, the remaining Remnant Population would revere Jaune as a god over the course of generations, a twisted version of truly happened becoming their religious canon. Due to the loss of the dreadnoughts overtime, much of the Legion history was lost and what was saved just became a war like doctrine for their "god". The Sons of Jaune are treated as literally Demi-gods of war who lead the armies and fleets in a holy crusade to avenge their "god" and ancestors. They basically just became the Imperium 2.0? Or word bearers? Idk all I know is that what she was going for I guess.

I'm kinda exploring this with "The fall of Remnant" art pieces but not the whole Religious crusade for revenge type deal. Remnant Knights would come back but only to retake their homeworld and that's it, stay away from the wider galaxy as a whole.

[linkspooky]

Thanks for your response to my ask on antagonists that weren’t really villains now I don’t read that many x men comics so I don’t really know that much about magneto aside from the basic(backstory goals etc) so what about magneto is “always right”

(P.s to keep thing’s balanced I’ll elaborate on my side if you don’t want to read it you can ignore this part of the post.

(Doom is an interesting case where you could argue that the villain is more heroic than most of the heroes themselves and that’s due to his goals and the fact that when he succeeds it’s almost always for the better dooms goal is to take over the world so he can make it into a better place and when he does it actually is a better place a prime example is his hometown of latveria because when he other throws the previous king it becomes the closest thing to a perfect place you can get there’s no crime no disease no poverty and it’s run by a pretty reasonable schedule during his brief stint as iron man almost all crime in the world dropped either due to him or out of fear of him even Stan lee argued that doom wasn’t really doing anything wrong(wanting to rule the world mind you) and his hatred for reed Richards is pretty justified when you think about what doom has done and that reed is smarter than him and hasn’t done what doom has)

No, I agree with your argument anon, Doom is a way more compelling character than Reed Richards.

(Sadly the only comics I've ever read with Doom in them are the distant epilogue of Spiderman 2099 and Young Avengers the Children's Crusade, neither of which I think are good examples of his character).

However, I'd say that Magneto is the hero of his story for basically the same reasons that you listed Doom as the hero of his. You know how you listed all of those super compelling character traits for Doom, and then Reed Richards is kind of just a jerk.

That is essentially the same as the Magneto and Professor Xavier rivalry. Magneto's one of the most compelling characters in comics driven by his overwhelming empathy for the suffering of his people and then Xavier is just kind of a jerk.

If you know Professor Xavier and what he's done at all it's hard to consider him a good guy even if you find his ideals more agreeable and less extreme than Magneto's. Xavier is a manipulator and a groomer, basically raising the students at his school to be tools to his political agenda even though they're literally just kids.

Things Xavier has done:

Once reprogrammed an amnesiac Wolverine's brain into thinking he came to rejoin the X-men in Wolverine Origins #29.

Designed a bunch of robots called the Xavier protocols to kill his students if they ever got out of control.

Literally joined an organization called the illuminati and plotted to kill Scarlet Witch once among other things.

Literally erased the memory of Scott's brother from his mind. Like. Just made Scott forget that he had a brother to cover up the mistake he made when he sent a team on a mission to an island and all of them died with the only exception being Scott's younger brother Gabrielle.

This isn't to knock on Xavier's character. All of these things are what make Xavier interesting, because the Xavier and Magneto rivalry blurs what the definition of hero and villain is. He's also I think a pretty realistic depiction of what I think someone with Xavier's mutant abilities would act like, giving that much mental power to one person would be too tempting no matter how good your intentions are.

[mostsanescarletspiderfan]

Avengers: the children's crusade!

A surprisingly good read honestly even if I didn't really like how most of the avengers acted.

Still don't like iron lad tho, the whole time travel thing really makes it's presence known and basically giving him no breathing room to just be a character.

The finale sucked, Jonas and Cassie did not need to die. That just makes me dislike Nathaniel.

Also most of the romances sucked, with the exception of Teddy/Billy and Cassie/Jonas.

I'm kinda contradicting myself here but the young avengers are way better in others books than in their mains ones honestly.

[scarlet--wiccan]

Do you have any thoughts on Wanda and Hank (McCoy’s) relationship? They seem like decent friends when they’re on the avengers together (and they both kinda dated wonder man), but idk where they stand (and have stood) post m-day.

Things are obviously even more complicated with beast being a fully blown supervillain now, but they also all-but-declared evil x-force villain Hank a different character than avengers Hank. I know it was a throw away gag, but I so wonder about that email from him to her in strange academy. What were his intentions there?

I'm going to be completely honest, Hank is one of those characters I just don't think about very often. I'd have to re-read a lot, and I mean a lot, of comics to make any kind informed statement about his relationship to Wanda prior to M-Day, so I'm not gonna do that.

I will say, though, that out of all the original X-Men, he definitely has the closest relationship to Wanda by virtue of proximity. He's certainly known her longer than most people, and we can definitely infer that they had a friendship just based on how well Wanda usually gets along with her teammates, and of course, their mutual affection for Simon. In fact, I'd say they have the potential to be great friends-- they're both people who are very good at overlooking differences, and at one point time, they were both written as very outgoing, charming individuals. She probably responds really well to his overly-genteel manner-- when Hank addressed her as "Dearest Wanda" in that email, I was like, "oh, of course this is how they talk to each other."

After the Decimation, Hank threw himself into researching the cause and trying to develop a cure. This was a big turning point in his life, as he ended up working with Dark Beast and crossing a lot of moral boundaries. His search actually led him to finding Wanda when she was living as an amnesiac in Transia, although it's not clear whether that was actually her or the Doombot. Although he certainly holds Wanda accountable for M-Day, he didn't betray her location to the X-Men, and later, during Children's Crusade, he was actually sympathetic to Wanda's circumstances and wanted to help her use the Life Force to undo the Decimation. Compared to most of the other Avengers and X-Men, I'd say he was one of her very few allies, and he's on the short list of mutants that I would expect to advocate for her, if only because he believed she'd be part of the solution, not just the problem.

Avengers: Children's Crusade #15

The thing with Hank's psychic backups is really weird, but it gestures at some of the more philosophical questions that Krakoan resurrection poses-- or at least, the questions it would pose if the writers would actually commit. If the "self" is a replicable, modifiable computer file, then the idea personhood begins to lose coherence. One of the things I find frustrating about the Krakoan era is that they don't often follow through on the bigger implications of their world-building, and this is one of those subjects where they'd clearly rather divert into cape-comic genre beats then get into the speculative philosophy. It's probably for the best.

Anyways, Beast. In Wolverine #31, we learn that Hank has built his own little clone lab and taken charge of his own resurrections. To that end, he basically stole his backup files from the Cerebro system, but, weirdly enough, he left the records of his time with the Avengers untouched. It's not clear whether or not the backups Hank is using to clone himself include that period, but we do know that if the Five wanted to resurrect him at this point, they'd be bringing back a version from before Krakoa-- which is to say, a version which hasn't yet taken the same moral downfall. If I had to guess, I'd say this is the loophole that they'll use to bring the character back without having to worry about "redeeming" him or reconciling his actions. This is a staple move for supherhero comics-- come up with an excuse to for the character to say "that wasn't really me"-- but I don't think we've seen it played straight with Krakoan resurrection yet.

Oh, and as for the e-mail-- I wrote a bit about it here, but I genuinely think he was just trying to test out whether the gates would recognize her. It came across as very sinister at the time, since this was before Trial and Wanda was still basically an enemy of the state, so inviting her to the island definitely felt like a trap. At the time, I said that this page was probably non-canon, but then the exchange between Wanda and Magneto ended up being a lot more prescient than I could have anticipated, so I guess we should take it seriously.

[askaniritual]

question! do you have any suggestions abt where to start reading for Shatterstar?

this is essentially the preeiminent question in the field of Caring about Shatterstar scholarship because there are things that are offputting to new readers in essentially every comic he's ever been in. but he is THE worlds specialist little guy and i do think he's worth the effort so here's the deal, presented in chronological order:

X-Force (1991)

This is the comic where he is introduced, so if you are committed to The Full Shatterstar Experience you can read New Mutants (1983) #99-100 and then start X-Force (1991) #1 and just read that comic through issue 70. He's a main character for that entire stretch. If the art starts making you despondent, just know it gets really really good starting issue #44.

If you are taking this approach you also need to read Cable 1993 #22 between issues 45 and 46 of X-Force. This is possibly the best he has ever looked and is an absolutely banger issue.

Additional mandatory reading for this era is X-Force Annual 1999. I am linking this so you know how important it is. I own TWO physical copies of this comic book.

@pickleslice and @shatterstar will say that after this you have to read the first 4 pages of X-Force: Shatterstar (2004) #1. Do with that information what you will. The rest of the comic is bad though everybody agrees on this.

X-Factor Investigations aka X-Factor (2006)

Shatterstar shows up here in issue #43 through the end of the comic. This is where his relationship with Rictor becomes canon (although it was very clearly hinted at in X-Force 1991). The important thing to note about this is that the author, Peter David, slam dunks all of Shatterstar's previous characterization in the garbage in service of making him a shitty Jack Harkness ripoff. It's painfully biphobic!

Most Shatterstar enjoyers do not feel that this comic is the best representation of him as a character, but unfortunately it now makes up the majority of his publication history in recent memory.

In here you also need to read Avengers: The Children's Crusade #6. Idk where and tbh it doesn't really matter.

Shatterstar (2018)

This is a 4 issue mini and is very divisive in the fandom. People don't like the landlord thing and if you are foolish enough to go into my Shatterstar tag from 2018 you will see me complaining vociferously about nearly every part of the comic. That being said!!! It was personally my introduction to the character.

I read this first and then I skim read the entirety of X-Factor (2006) and only read panels I saw Shatterstar in and I did this for like 100 issues in ~24 hours. I don't recommend this approach I'm just being real with you.

X-Factor 2020 / Exacalibur 2020

He's in both of these! I would not recommend reading them without reading any of the other stuff first but these are the most recent comics he's been in.

Anyway this is far from any kind of comprehensive reading list, he's been in more stuff! But I would say reading X-Force 1991, X-Factor 2006, and the mini will get you basically caught up to speed on what there is to know about the character. If you have any more questions about my special little guy please lmk I love talking about him

[therealgothambychelsealauren]

Chapter I: While in the Shadows

*opening sequence - making coffee, getting ready for school*

In 2021, the National Institute of Health published a study that demonstrated how parents were statistically more likely to misperceive a black child as feeling angry than a white child. The NIH used buzzwords like "adultification" and "racialized anger bias" to explain the disproportionate phenomenon between race of children and mis-labeling of emotions. Basically, to scientifically say what us Black folk already know - the "angry Black woman" stereotype wasn't endorsed by white people by accident.

I had many things to be angry about in my teen years; the star of the boys' soccer team didn't wanna date me, my sister needed medication we couldn't afford, my clothes were found on sale at Goodwill and Old Navy, I was a child and a co-parent at the same time, my mother had demons in her head that needed more than holy water to exorcise.

In the study I mentioned earlier, they conclude that a large reason for the "racially-biased misconception of anger in children" is because it correlates with how Black children are also misperceived as being older (and presumed more mature) than they actually are. And like these researchers and other Black folks can tell you, there are cultural and systemic contributions from our society that allow this correlation to exist. The article's suggested solution to this psycho-social problem is to acknowledge the cultural phenomenon and the impact it has on our children.

For myself, I just read comic books.

I was the oldest of 3 kids. We needed a dad - a safe dad, who didn't make us feel like we had to sleep with one eye open if he stayed the night, who was gonna keep our stomachs from growling and the bullies from laughing.

But despite my mother's beauty and desperation, Superman would only hover before vanishing from our doorstep.

My brother and sister were into Spiderman mostly; they liked his vibrant bright colors and his cool backstory. He made the spiders creeping around our section-8 housing less scary (they could potentially give you superpowers, after all). And of course, the iconic quote - "with great power comes great responsibility" - is a line that just caresses the nostalgia part of our brains.

But I was of the minority opinion. At the public library, the sibs read adventures about Peter Parker and the Avengers rescuing New York City, whereas I gravitated towards the darker grittier side of comicbooks - the side that mirrored my reality rather than fantasized a different one.

"You either die a hero or live long enough to see yourself become a villain" - that was the favorite movie quote (from Batman: The Dark Knight) I introduced myself with on the first day of 9th grade history class, and I remember the judgemental glances and snickers exchanged amongst my classmates.

Batman Year One.

The Long Halloween.

The Killing Joke.

My library list of titles and due dates was a monochromatic receipt in theme and morals compared to what my siblings borrowed. My mother noticed, and she especially noticed when I dressed up as Batgirl for Halloween three years in a row. She didn't mind Batman, but pictures of the Joker scared her. My brother had to convince her to let us borrow The Dark Knight on DVD from Family Video. I think when my sister moved on from My Little Pony to Gossip Girl and my brother became obsessed with computer engineering instead of Legos, my mother hoped I'd turn away from the dark compelling images of bloody clowns and tormented Caped Crusaders into something less dark and disturbing.

But I needed the Batman.

Watching Batman punch The Riddler square in the jaw felt like releasing my own fistfights through my knuckles tightly clenching the colorful pages. When Batman snarled, I gritted my teeth. When the Joker laughed, I screamed.

Batman mirrored the reality my soul writhed and burned within. Every morally gray act was a validation of my anger in such a corrupt system. I wasn't a villain, I was a product of my environment. I wasn't a hero, I was a survivor.

In college, I drafted a short film inspired by this coping mechanism of my childhood. My freshman year of college was the first year of the Covid pandemic, the momentous year of the Black Lives Matter movement, and the year I realized my mother's white parenting and upbringing did not protect me from the biases and cruelties systemically distributed to Black folks - to my father's folks. My final year of undergrad began soon after the overturn of Roe v. Wade. Personal and worldwide challenges were faced and scarred in the years between.

After graduating college and experiencing the worst summer of my adulthood, I packed my bags for an opportunity to serve as a peer mentor for students in underresourced schools in the real Gotham City - New York City. It was an experience that taught me a lot and, unfortunately, burnt me a lot - both in physical exhaustion and in an emotional metaphorical sense. Following the year of servitude, I was accepted into law school.

Which brings me to today, the start of my first 1L semester. It's exciting, but also harrowing as I learn how much of my life has been a pawn in the unsaid chess match between law and empathy, between control and anarchy. I have stayed in Gotham, never feeling so at home anywhere else.

And as I learn more and more about the legal system, I feel the dark cowl of the Batman hovering closer and closer over my mind like a noose dangling over my neck, dooming me to risk dying a hero or play the game long enough to become one of them. Can I be clever and resourceful like the Batman? Will this rope tied by generations of oppression choke me out, or will my hands snap it at just the right moment to use it like a grappling hook and pull myself up above the cycle?

[spiralghoul]

I know there’s one floating around on tumblr but I can’t find it rn but basics you’ll want to read are

Young avengers (2005) first appearance and really good it’s 12 issues but usually sold as a trade now and young avengers presents you can read all 5 but the only ones that apply to him are 3 and 2

Then there’s the civil war side story (civil war: Young Avengers & Runaways) but honestly if your just trying to get a feel for the character it’s not necessary rn same with the secret invasion side story

The next important storyline is Avengers: Children’s Crusade (2010) this is when they figure out all the wanda stuff and it’s also very good

After that is Young Avengers (2014) which Billy is a primary focus of for a decent amount of it

And after that is the 2020 Empyre event which does focus on his husband a bit more for obvious reasons but he is still a very important part of it read Road to Empyre, lords of Empyre, Empyre 1-10 and Empyre aftermath if you can find a trade of it those are the most important for Billy and teddys storylines

I would also read last annihilation: Wiccan and Hulkling

This is for sure not a complete list but it’s a pretty good basics from what I can remember off the top of my head hope you enjoy them!!!

I fucking hate everything. I'm looking up wiccan reading guides and it's fucking impossible to find anything because

a) 500 articles named "who is billy maximoff in agatha all along: explained"

b) the fact that the character was named after a real ass religion and I keep getting recommended books on paganism

[billykaplan-666]

Billy & Teddy’s Friday of Obscurity!

Today I wanted to talk about Avengers Fairy Tales!

I think this is a comic series most people have forgotten about or bring up every few years to talk about it’s ridiculousness which is exactly what I wanted to do, specifically issue number three.

I think the whole series of ‘Marvel Fairy Tales’ is really interesting because I can’t really find a ‘reason’ behind their release other than the interest in adapting older fairy tales with marvel characters which admittedly is a fun idea. C.B. Celuski wrote three different iterations of these fairy tales the first about the X-Men, next about Spider-Man, and the final about the Avengers. There was apparently a rumored fourth miniseries about the Fantastic Four. From what I can tell it was a little passion project that was used to feature creators and folk and fairy tales.

This story specifically takes place on Earth-TRN720 and is basically the story of Alice in Wonderland but with Young Avengers characters plugged in.

The issue itself is really interesting in how it characterizes all the Young Avengers. It came out the summer of 2008 which could explain the weird characterization since it was before Children’s Crusade. The comic itself has a very weird tone to it, if I had to use one word it would definitely be weird.

The story doesn’t serve no purpose at all though I think it’s interesting that it focuses on Cassie as she takes the role of Alice, since the whole comic sets each of the Young Avengers as Alice in Wonderland characters. Cassie is Alice, Tommy is the white rabbit, Eli and Kate are the king and queen, Billy is the March hare, Teddy is the Mad Hatter, Nate is the dormouse, and Ant-man is the caterpillar.

The story actually explores Cassie’s character a little, how she’s struggled with her emotions since Scott’s death and how she needs to move forward and keep going without letting it hold her back. Surprisingly it also talks about how lost Teddy feels since at that point in the canon he had just found he was a Kree-Skrull hybrid. He talks about how he admires Cassie’s confidence and sense of self since he feels lost and confused himself. Billy also seems to be very formal in this, holding up what feels like a ‘character’ himself which could just be chalked up to the story or could kind of be his role in between the end of Young Avengers and the Children’s Crusade. Could be seen as him taking on a more stable rule based role, trying to keep everything safe and simple after Teddy had been through so much.

To be fair it’s an interesting story since we don’t see much character development with Cassie before her death and even after she was brought back. It also comes with pretty interesting character designs.

Overall I think it’s a fun read but not a very necessary one, I would’ve liked a more present Cassie story but looking at her emotions through a fairytale lens is interesting!

[gavillain]

As someone who isn't that into comics, what Doctor Doom stories would you recommend?

Okay, so the biggest and most important one that I'll recommend is Doctor Strange & Doctor Doom: Triumph and Torment. It's a great character study on Doom and has some of the very best writing on him. If you read nothing else Dr. Doom related, do this one. It's, imo, his very best story.

If you want something more villainous, try Fantastic Four: Unthinkable. It's one of the darkest Doctor Doom stories and really showcases how far he's willing to go to get the better of his adversaries.

Thor #601 - 606 is probably my favorite Doom story to read because it's Doom and Loki's big team up arc together, and they are GLORIOUS together. It has their Vivisection sex dungeon and everything XD

A lot of people will recommend Books of Doom to you, and it's definitely the most comprehensive Doom origin story that we have. Though I'm personally more partial to the origin telling in Fantastic Four Annual #2. But both are worth reading - don't just do one or the other since Books of Doom is from Doom's PoV and plays with the unreliable narrator shtick.

His and Iron Man's Camelot adventures in Doomquest are also really iconic. The original story is in Iron Man #249 - #250 and there's a sequel miniseries Iron Man: Legacy of Doom that's really great and also high key homoerotic XD

Fantastic Four #57- #60 is when he first stole the Silver Surfer's power cosmic. Great classic issue, though if you watched the 90s Fantastic Four cartoon, the season two finale is basically the exact same story condensed so you're not really missing much if you just watched that episode and not read the comic.

Emperor Doom (Marvel Graphic novel #27) is great and has Doom actually succeed in taking over the world, and it also is a great character study on Doom.

Secret Wars and Children's Crusade are both big entire Marvel universe spanning story arcs where Doom is the main villain. He's a major character in Heroes Reborn, Acts of Vengeance, and Dark Reign, so I recommend any issues featuring him in those runs as well.

And then of course, I always recommend checking out basically any comic that he appears in that you can get ahold of. The initial Fantastic Four appearances are great, he some great run ins with the Avengers, there's a few Spider-Man and Thor issues featuring him, and so on. He's a very rich an exciting character to read for, so I really just recommend almost all of his appearances tbh XD

[brw]

I know you've gotten a lot of asks about Hank and Simon lately but how do you think Simon reacts to all of the X bullshit.

Likeeee is he aware? Or does Hank randomly trauma dump; "that reminds me of the time my mentors opp (his ex boyfriend) ripped out my friend's bones." Or like "yeah so like we were gonna die in the future but Scott's kid with his wife's clone who was sent to the future came back and warned us"

How do you think Simon reacts to what is basically his crazy inlaw drama.

Simon has definitely heard a lot of horror stories down the superhero grapevine. While Simon has never spent a major chunk of time with the X-Men off his own back, we have to remember who the people he's closest to are; Hank McCoy, obviously, but Wanda Maximoff, also, whom he defended intensely and purposefully during the Children's Crusade mess, and Carol Danvers, who obviously has her own important links to the X-Men.

Anyway I definitely see Hank sort of just... unloading every once in a while in the form of a super long text message or voice app note or just a rant whenever they do meet up. We see it in Uncanny Avengers V3 #28, we see it in A+X #12, and Simon to his credit does try to call Hank out on his shit when necessary; either when he's not taking enough blame for his actions, or taking too much. But yeah, through the whole mess of recent events, the X-Men's treatment of Wanda, and the often tense inter-team relations have probably given him a very... critical view on the X-Men, I imagine. I mean, if he's been a part of the Avengers for 50 odd years and was critical enough of them to push Avengers Tower into the ocean he's definitely going to have a bit of a bone to pick with the X-Men, but probably mostly keeps this to himself in the spirit of inter-team relations.

Simon was also there for the m-word speech so he definitely has an unflattering image of the X-Men, shall we say. He's generally conflict adverse outside of 80s and Revenger characterisation, so he wouldn't bring it up, but you can definitely sense some bubbling frustration in that A+X issue. Not necessarily with the X-Men specifically, but a lot of the flaws present in the Avengers are very much there with the X-Men so he's going to be critical of both. Speaking of, it'll be interesting to see how he fits in that new Avengers series, because it's the first time he's actively been on a superhero team since 2017.

Anyway, Simon lowkey doesn't like the X-Men for all the mistreatment of Hank and Wanda but mostly keeps this to himself but he will (or should be, if Percy had a more better grasp on him) definitely be a bit bitchy around them. Especially Magneto I'd imagine, and Xavier and Scott too.