#babel meta

[shpjarkley]

I'm new to the TLT fandom so I don't know if this is well-documented already but I found this little detail in Nona the Ninth so clever.

The chapter image is a tower which, given the series' love for biblical allusions, evokes the Tower of Babel. It's the first appearance of this tower image in the book.

When I first saw this image, it said to me that Muir wants to compare Nona and her universal language abilities to the Tower of Babel. Reading the page gave me immediate confirmation: the first word that Nona speaks in the chapter is supposed to be "Language", but it comes out as gibberish.

[kindlespark]

i get why ppl say that babel was too 'telling not showing' with the cohorts' friendship; robin's internal monologue says his cohort were all in love with each other, but we mostly get dialogue of them fighting *cough* and letty being racist *cough*. i just think that that was kind of the point!

robin is a great flawed protagonist and most importantly an unreliable narrator, and the disparity between what he tells you and the dialogue scenes we actually get feels intentional to me, because you can feel the disconnect between what robin wanted and his reality. when he was still in love with babel, he wanted their cohort to be a perfect romantic ideal, wanted to think their fights were overcomeable, that ramy and victoire felt the same that he did. but the cracks were there from the beginning; their relationships were always fucked up. the effects of colonialism/imperialism robin wanted so badly to ignore had doomed them from the beginning. babel in ramy or victoire's perspective would be wildly wildly different because it's clear they did not have robin's privilege

i just love that robin is like truly such a damn liberal for half the book, never truly committing to hermes, holding onto his whiteness and desire to belong, and that this flaw is what dooms his relationship with ramy. people celebrate babel for its scathing critique of white feminism, and they should, but it's also so damning of liberal activism too imo. robin as a protagonist exemplifies the way fellow poc will often uphold racist structures for their own benefit and to avoid complicating themselves--and that this will always be a futile selfish endeavour. robin must, like all of us, come to the conclusion that he will never belong while this system remains intact, that his privilege isn't worth the suffering of those alike him, and that resisting it however he can is the only moral and just thing to do. wow i got sidetracked but robin swift wasian character of all time fr

[archiveofliterature]

i've always wondered why robin's outward statements about colonialism never bothered me the way it did others who felt the book was too on the nose and, while i think part of it is that i'm glad someone has the guts to say it out loud after years of denial, in terms of babel as a story and its characterisation of robin, i think i've got it

one big flaw of robin's is that he ignores things that are not said. he'll acknowledge them somewhat in his internal narrative and then immediately find reasons as to why he should not give it much thought

i've said these points before but to reiterate:

babel's theme of languages and violence allows us to explore the unsaid and the times in which violence actualises what is left unsaid

robin is being introduced to colonialism for the first time. we know so much about colonialism now because we are no longer in the height of it anymore (we are definitely still in a world of colonialism, see: palestine, capitalism, after-effects in third world countries), we have resources, the words and the experiences to prove the victors wrong. robin, in the 19th century, did not

yes, we and robin were shown that colonialism is bad through the events of the story and yes, it did take robin seeing canton again to see how bad it really got, but robin needed to say those things out loud for him to understand it, otherwise it would not be in character for him to do anything about it

and maybe you could argue that his arc could've been to acknowledge things that are not spoken about because they have equal importance, but why should they remain unspoken? in fact i think in combination of this flaw and of the language theme, robin stating that colonialism is bad displays that innate love and pain he has for his identity

to me, this did not feel like a jarring, 21st century-like statement – it was entirely in character and a reasonable conclusion for robin to have made at the point he reaches in the story

[ao3cassandraic]

I’m wondering about your thoughts on something I’ve been musing on after S2. How good is Aziraphale’s reading comprehension? How much does he understand subtext and metaphor? Because his behavior this season struck me with the impression that he didn’t really understand the books he collects. He’s clever at puzzle solving, and contains vast knowledge; but he always seems to take things at face value (when he’s not willfully misunderstanding), and refuses to give up black-and-white thinking, which would make it very difficult to analyze texts.

Angels, demons, language, and culture: part 1

You sure ask the difficult ones. (Which is great, I'm totally jazzed about it!)

I delayed answering this ask because it sent me off in a lot of directions:

What is an angel's starting knowledge base?

In contrast, how and what do we humans learn about our world and one another?

Which of these learning methods is not really available to an angel?

What do humans learn from books, fiction especially?

What kinds of information get left implicit in books because authors are humans writing for other humans?

How would an angel fill in those blanks? How would those blanks distort an angel's notion of How Humans and Human Things Work?

What would angels generally and either Aziraphale or Muriel (because yeah, it's hard to have this discussion without thinking about Muriel too) specifically read human-authored fiction for?

I don't have all the answers to the above questions. Not even CLOSE. I happily invite my fellow meta-ists to weigh in on any or all of them!

But let's see what I can tease out. We'll start with factory settings, so to speak.

Angelic vs. human factory settings

(questions 1 through 3)

Angels have (one) language. They have music -- or, at least, they can sing Her praises (likely by rote). At least some, like our Starmaker, have the knowledge to do specific jobs. Note that Aziraphale not only doesn't know how to make stars and nebulas, he's not even clear on what a nebula is. We can safely assume from that that angels don't all possess the same set of knowledge and skills purely by virtue (heh) of being angels.

We don't see, however, how much of what they know is simply an angel's birthright versus how much of it is somehow educated into them. We also don't know how She divvies up necessary knowledge, though I'd think it safe (given most takes on angelology) to guess that angelic rank and intended function are part of Her calculus, perhaps even the whole of it.

What strikes me hardest is that angels seem to be created either as adults or children (which is what I believe the scareable "cherubs" are), and they may well never change that state. The Starmaker is childlike in some ways, but not a child. Likely never was a child! Aziraphale, Before the Beginning, isn't childlike at all; his personality seems pretty close to fully-formed.

And children learn so very, very much. Babies learn so much as babies, while their neuroplasticity is super super plastic! Especially they learn about relating to other beings! (Which the Starmaker is conspicuously Not Real Great at, honestly -- absorbed in the work of creation, the Starmaker does not pick up the feelings Aziraphale is laying down at all.)

Children also learn one OR MORE languages, and that "more" is rather important, because language shapes how we think to some extent (the extent of that extent, and its nature, are objects of fierce debate among linguists and neuroscientists), and different languages shape us differently. Just as Crowley (as plenty of theologians argue) did humanity a favor with the whole knowledge-of-good-and-evil thing, the Tower of Babel (assuming that was a thing that happened in the GOverse; no reason it wouldn't have, I suppose) added a whole lot of nuance and complexity and competing understandings to humanity's sense of itself and its universe.

Exactly how angels and demons manage to speak all human languages (which Crowley indicates they can) isn't clear. If we accept that the Tower of Babel happened, both Heaven and Hell must have had to figure out a way to deal with it.

We do see, however, that angels and demons can be fluent in human languages without being fluent in human thought or human cultures. Gabriel and Sandalphon speak perfect English yet barely know which end of a book is up. Hastur and Ligur can't disentangle ciao/chow. And, I mean, actual food? Fuhgeddaboudit. So I see their linguistic facility as a sort of Douglas Adams Babel fish: it can translate an angel's or demon's thought into the target language, but it can't help an angel or demon think like an actual speaker of that language.

As an example, Gabriel can tell Job and Sitis about their new children, perfectly fluently. His purely-linguistic fluency does not help him understand that they loved their old children, much less why.

This may explain why Aziraphale studied French under M. Rossignol. He perhaps didn't feel he understood how French speakers think, and was interested enough in that to learn the language (as other meta-ists have noted, the language of love!) the human way.

So yeah, if I have a conclusion here it's that angels and demons can seem as off-center as they often do from a human perspective because they wholly missed out on a key period of human brain development.

What they have in its place appears to be... rules. Which is, I think, where I'll take this next.

[thefiresofpompeii]

if we’re going as meta as mr cowan is clearly asking us to go while engaging with his text… what does a ‘dictionary contributor’ actually do? they ‘add to the lore’ and, by doing so, seem to make tweaks and amendments to the history of the universe itself. they alter the fabric, a stitch unraveled here and there.

take a fictional universe, one very particular fictional universe even. a ‘head dictionary contributor’, then, becomes a showrunner/head writer. ‘assistant dictionary contributors’ can be read as being the authors of individual episodes or EU content

remember the law? the current showrunner is always the worst, always the most hated.

during moffat’s era you would hear endless tirades about how he can’t write nuanced character dynamics (a shameless lie) or his writing’s too convoluted (not untrue, but not a negative either). then chibbers came along and he was treated like the spawn of the devil who ruined the show (somewhat fairly, that aside). everybody expected rtd2 to be the cure-all end-all be-all, but now, according to most of the fandom that populates twitter, the star beast was the worst of the worst and “chibnall wasn’t that bad actually”. and now most people think moffat was the best writer to ever grace the new era of the show with his presence…

the cycle goes on. the old Head Dictionary Contributor gets metaphorically torn to shreds and replaced, the new Head Dictionary Contributor builds upon the old lore and redacts and rewrites and erases and constructs a new mythology. his contributions get added to the ever-changing, ever-growing annals of history — known to some as TARDIS.wiki . a brand new starry-eyed Caretaker knocks on the door of the Internal Reference Room, starts scribbling in the book. it’s been laying on that wooden desk for sixty years, or six billion.

the Assistant Dictionary Contributors keep assembling our Tower of Babel. it’ll never crumble if we’re not constructing it with the intention of toppling the Gods themselves, right? and what’s a little hubris between friends?

peak postmodernism. this is what happens when a media universe becomes so large and expansive that it gains a will of its own. Borges would love Doctor Who. Mark Z. Danielewski too, maybe. don’t tell them. well, one of them’s dead. not like that matters in the grand scheme of things :)

[tianshiisdead]

Found while cleaning old drafts: some meta on Robin, Lovell, Griffin, their relationships, and the all-consuming many-sided nature of empire:

I'm really fascinated by Griffin and Robin's similarities to Lovell and their reactions to it: that they are polar opposites both narratively and in their roles and relationships, that Lovell is a simple villain and a clear evil while Robin and Griffin are victims of his actions, but that none of them can escape the fact that being raised by him has horribly imprinted onto them traces of Lovell as well. Griffin taking his last name and defiantly giving name to what Lovell refuses to acknowledge, Robin getting mistaken for Lovell by his son, all the places where Griffin is mentioned to be similar, and most of all the fact that Lovell himself is the one most discomforted by the similarity. Lovell both intentionally makes them in his image for the sake of convenience but also avoids it, because his ability to use them as tools hinges heavily on his complete dehumanization of them based on race, the similarities reveal something he isn't ready to confront. It reminds me of the concept of 'total empire' according to 'Japan's Total Empire: Manchuria and the Culture of Wartime Imperialism', where colonization is as defining for the colonizer as it is for the colonized, and the colonizer brutally enforcing their will on the colonized has the flip side of the colonizer becoming changed by their own consumption of the goods of the colonized, goods projected onto the racialized bodies of the colonized, making their own identities through what they've taken. Babel brings that up over and over very blatantly through comments on how the British define themselves with foreign goods, but Lovell and the tension in his similarity and relationship to Griffin and Robin read like a sort of microcosm of that as well. He cannot acknowledge what he's imparted onto them because it would say something about himself that he can't accept. On the other hand, Robin doesn't directly confront his own connections and similarities with Lovell for most of the book, but Griffin does, he's the only one out of the three of them who forces it into the open. It's very telling that the beginning of the end (of Lovell) is tied to Robin doing the same, forcing their connection into the open and making Lovell look it in the eyes. I think there's something so compelling about Robin-Griffin-Lovell and their relationships, a multifaceted dynamic that tends to get glossed over for painful reasons I can understand, but one that nonetheless has a lot to say about the themes of the book, presented a little more subtly.

[chucklepea-hotpot]

it drives me crazy how in the german version birdie was "translated" with robbie. always an act of betrayal, huh.

[literary-illuminati]

my hater review of Babel is at 3k words and I still have ~2 sections left to write

when they say negative reviews are funner/easier they do not lie.

[mizukagami-takamagahara]

Hinata was an interesting case for BBDW. She was never playable, but she did appear in the story and, naturally, the files. She has talksprites and an expression sheet, but nothing more.

Her expressions, in order, are listed as "01normal, 02joy, 03mad, 04sad, 05happy, 06shy"

Her place in the files, and what little she does have, is definitely weird compared to her fellow Xblaze characters.

Her designation in the files is 0114000, while the rest of her castmates are in the 50s-60s; the Xblaze characters we can readily identify start with Kuon at 0056000, and end with Acht at 0064000.

There is some room for uncertainty there because of placeholder numbers and files; the Phase Shift cast comes immediately before Xblaze, but the last one we know of is Kazuma (0048000) leaving several unknown characters between him and Kuon. Following the Xblaze cast we see the Bloodedge Experience characters, beginning with Raquel (0071000) and once again leaving several planned but unidentified characters between her and Acht.

But those blank spaces don't tell us anything about Hinata. At 114, Hinata is listed among BBDW exclusive characters.

Another Dark Mai (0097000) is the last playable character before we start to see a bunch of story-exclusive cast members- the next known character after AD Mai is Hearn (0105000) and, following him, the other members of Babel. The last character we know immediately before Hinata is Oliver (011000... sort of. His files are a little strange, but that's a story for another post.)

Immediately after Hinata we find Kagami (0115000) which seems to seal a pattern for us, implying that all of these characters after AD Mai are story exclusive, and that Hinata was likely never going to be playable.

Except for the fact that the next character we see is the very playable Another Dark Kagura (0116000). And Academy Noel (0117000). And then the swimsuit alts, BBDW originals, crossover characters, and more alts- all playable.

So, what's the verdict??? Was Hinata going to be playable eventually, or not???

I'm inclined to say no. Hinata was likely only ever going to be a story character. If she had been intended to be playable, her data would have been listed with the rest of the Xblaze cast, even if she wasn't going to be added for a long time. We see this with Terumi who only ever appeared as a silhouette in the story and the files, but can still be found right next to the other Chronophantasma characters, right between Kagura and Kokonoe with his 0027000. It's safe to assume that Terumi, having already made playable appearances in the franchise, would've eventually been added.

Hinata, with no previous playable appearances and no real combat prowess, was likely placed into the files right alongside Kagami because both of them would serve important roles in the story, but never appear on a banner for us to roll. The fact that the files continue to list other playable characters is probably because any future BBDW originals, like alts and crossover characters, were going to be numbered chronologically at the end of what was already in the files.

That said... it's not like it would've been impossible. At the very least, the idea of a playable Hinata, maybe in her fully-realized Embryo state, is interesting to consider.

If you'd like to join me in my search for secrets in the BBDW files, check out this post here!

[shootingsun]

What's your analysis of the alias 'Babel'?

HI I ONLY JUST SAW THIS ASK TODAY

Okay so The Story of Babel, for people who don't know, is in Genesis 11:1-9 and explains the story why people speak different languages and have different cultures. The story of Babel is widely agreed to be about the both horrible and wonderful things humanity can do when unified, and it's also a lesson about the sin of Pride.

In the Drama, it's implied that both Near and Mello do work under the name of Babel, not just Near. We see Mello with them in their first four scenes, they even ask him questions about the cases ("Who's Kira?"). This, to me, shows that Babel is both of them, not just Near acting alone. Babel is derived from the root meaning "to confuse", which makes sense as when Babel first appears, they are presented as an enemy and not an ally. Actually, Babel is differentiated from Near very fast by L, ("I forgot to mention, but Babel is actually an acquaintance of mine. [...] Though Watari and I call them Near.") He refers to Babel as an acquaintance despite it showing us that L and Near are relatively close in this adaptation. This could be because he's trying to protect their status as his successor infront of Light, but this doesn't seem in character considering the after-death videos he made where he reveals very casually that Near is his successor. If anything, it seems like he's trying to say, that while Near is Babel, Near and Babel do different things and act in different ways. So Mello is also Babel! However, why is this relevant? Well, in the Story of Babel, when humanity tries to build a tower into Heaven, God separates them into different areas of the world and confuses their speech. Making them all have different languages, this makes communication and co-operation very difficult to ensure that they won't try something like that again. Babel implies multiple voices simultaneously, trying to co-operate unsuccessfully. We do see this with Near and Mello, because while (if my theory is correct) both of them are the detective Babel, Near is consistently trying to repress Mello. It's even seen with L, (*in response to Mello* "Shut up! Listen to me, don't get in Near's way.") Who uses more aggressive language when talking to Mello (だまれ (Damare), a very impolite way of telling someone to shut up). Which, ironically, L is more aggressive to Mello than Mello is to him (うるさい (Urusai), which is still aggressive but less so.). So yes, Babel shows multiple voices who don't know how to communicate. When Mello and Near finally begin to genuinely co-operate with one another, Mello's faked take over, the Alias of Babel is shed, showing they can actually understand one another for once.

Another little thing I noticed, The Story is said to be about the sin of Pride, and what it does. In the Drama, Light is not greedy, not lustful, obviously cares about not wasting what his family has in the house, so not gluttonous either. After becoming Kira, Light's always very motivated, so he's not slothful, the only one you can really argue for is Wrath. But, one thing stays consistent, Light is prideful. He takes pride in what he does, this is part of his downfall in every adaptation. How ironic, the story of Babel is about how Pride leads to failure, and the Prideful Kira is taken down by Near and Mello A.K.A Babel!

Was any of this relevant to the actual question? I dunno but I sure love to talk

[swimmingwolf59]

I’m overthinking about Journey to Babel again lol, but something occurred to me for the first time so I thought I’d share it!

Something I think about a lot and really enjoy about this episode is that, indirectly, and without Kirk’s interference, Spock's decision to give his loyalty to Starfleet would've been the death of his father. He was all for donating the blood necessary for his father’s procedure (even basically logic’d his way into forcing McCoy to go along with him and his sketchy drug plan lol), but as soon as Kirk gets injured he balks.

SPOCK: My first responsibility is to the ship. Our passengers' safety is by Starfleet order of first importance. We are being followed by an alien, possibly hostile, vessel. I cannot relinquish command under these circumstances. MCCOY: You can turn command over to Scotty. SPOCK: On what grounds, Doctor? Command requirements do not recognise personal privilege.

Spock can't donate blood because his duty lies with captaining the Enterprise (even if Scotty absolutely can and has captained the ship under strange circumstances but we’ll ignore that for now lol).

We know that the original rift between Spock and Sarek was formed because Spock wanted to join Starfleet, and Sarek disapproved because he thought Starfleet was too militaristic. He also wanted Spock to be a science officer at the VSA, and for Spock to follow in his own footsteps.

So, now. This scene:

SPOCK: Mother, how can you have lived on Vulcan so long, married a Vulcan, raised a son on Vulcan, without understanding what it means to be a Vulcan? AMANDA: If this is what it means, I don't want to know. SPOCK: It means to adopt a philosophy, a way of life, which is logical and beneficial. We cannot disregard that philosophy merely for personal gain, no matter how important that gain might be. AMANDA: Nothing is as important as your father's life. SPOCK: Can you imagine what my father would say if I were to agree, if I were to give up command of this vessel, jeopardise hundreds of lives, risk interplanetary war, all for the life of one person?

I used to interpret this exchange as Spock believing that Sarek would criticize him for being overly emotional and not making the logical decision. While there might still be some of that, I kinda read this scene a little differently now. Instead of being about logic v. emotion, I think it’s more a continuation of Sarek and Spock’s argument from 18 years ago. If Spock can turn his back on his duties as a Starfleet officer so easily (”easily” lol), why did he rebel against Sarek to choose it in the first place? Why didn't he just stay on Vulcan and do as his father wished?

I think Spock may have meant that taking this course of action, in his mind, would only further Sarek's belief that he made the wrong choice.

Can you imagine what my father would say, if I turned my back on the very thing I tried to convince him was so important.

I mean, it’s certainly something to sign your father’s death warrant over an argument LOL but this family is just the WORST at communicating all across the board. And apparently being a hypocrite is worse than anything else :D

[kindlespark]

i feel like that always sunny pepe silvia meme thinking about how babel’s magic system is inherently built upon division. the magic in translation works because of linguistic and cultural differences, because of an Other, so of course babel as an exploitative institution can only conceptualise it as violence, as betrayal. of course they view romance languages becoming more entwined and connected as a downside, because it makes babel/the empire less effective when they can no longer exploit difference, can no longer separate and conquer.

but, as the book says, robin and ramy from the very beginning see translation as connection. when robin brings up that translation can be seen as “reuniting mankind” like babel (the tower) once did, professor playfair is confused, because he can only understand translation in service of division and empire. but ramy calls robin a good translator, because to them, it's always been about listening to and understanding each other. in its pure form it’s the opposite of violence, because translation is really about overcoming difference. as ramy says, “showing yourself to the world, and hoping someone else understands”. it's an act of love.

so like of course the translate spell is the one to tear it all down. translation in service of empire was always going to be futile, because it violated an act of connection and celebration of difference. babel was only so fragile in the end

[longagoitwastuesday]

Weasel is absolutely the best part of Ghost Babel other than Snake himself, and barely

[yther]

Sometimes people have an anxious sort of FOMO after going no contact or cutting ties on various media platforms...

if you are haunted by the curiosity,

if you can't turn from the void until it answers, yearning a sort of ultimate catharsis in our own personal narrative

✨ LOOK NO FURTHER ✨

There it is, the Tar Pit.

And it is freedom from it that grants the silence you don't know you're seeking.

I hereby release you of your moral duty to fight in the pit. This is not Gladiator. But... it can be Elysium, the mythical Elysian Fields, not the movie.

(non sequitur: JODIE FOSTER in space gotta be one of my fav genres)

[dailyiyozane]

Me when

[jewsinfandoms]

Here we go, let’s start our "communication"!

What is “Jews In Fandoms”?

The past several months have not been welcoming for Jews, but we’re still here! Jews have long been part of fandom and this prompt list will celebrate our love and passion for our favorite things. Whether it’s fanfiction, fanart, headcanons, meta analysis, fan recipes - you name it, we’ll take it. The main requirement is that all entries must involve Judaism in a positive way. 

How does it work?

Every second Sunday we will announce a new prompt. You will have time until the next prompt to write, draw, cosplay, sing or contribute in any other way, as long as it is related to the prompt.

Post it on your Tumblr account, and don't forget to tag us @jewsinfandoms, so we will reblog it before announcing the next prompt in a showcase post.

Please remember to tag your creation with all the appropriate content warnings and triggers. These are trying times, and we want to keep everybody safe and informed.

NOTE: This space is Zionist-friendly. Israel is a huge part of Judaism and home to half of the world’s Jewish population. Your work doesn’t have to involve politics, but please be respectful of this integral connection.

No fandom-bashing and/or ship-bashing. Again, be respectful.

You do not have to be Jewish to participate, but you must be an ally to Jewish people.

And now, for our first prompt – communication!

Will Crowley and Aziraphale talk again? How does the Babel fish work? What is Batman saying to Robin? We accept all fandoms. So long as your fanwork meets our other requirements, follow your hearts’ desire!