#asoiaf commentary

[jozor-johai]

Because the concept of "historical accuracy" gets brought up in regards to ASOIAF despite it being a fantasy series and therefore not requiring historical accuracy, I think it's really worth realizing the degree and manner in which GRRM is drawing from history. He consults historical texts to be sure, but what he seems to focus on is how the style of older historical texts delivers these tales as stories, and how much hearsay makes it into the documents.

GRRM likes stories, more than history for its own sake, which makes sense; he's a storyteller. This appreciation is how we get Fire & Blood, plenty of attention to tales told rather than representative history.

Emblematic of this is his response to his inspiration for Stannis: GRRM says that Stannis is inspired by Tiberius Caesar, but he qualifies that this is "in some part Tiberius from history, but to a greater extent specifically Tiberius from the TV series 'I, Claudius'" (my paraphrasing). He's open with the fact that, rather than trying to mirror history, GRRM is drawing inspiration from other stories and media about history.

And so we should not understand ASOIAF as a fantasy filter over a historical framework, we should understand ASOIAF as building on and responding to stories first, both fantasy and history—and especially where the two get confused.

So when people complain that his feudal model is more rooted in pop-history and has little actual functionality, I think that's fine; perhaps it's even the point, whether GRRM intends it to be or not. ASOIAF is not the real medieval era, but rather has roots in the fantastic way that medieval aesthetics have been developed.

This is also applicable to his oft-cited inspiration for the series as a whole structure, the War of the Roses. GRRM frequently says that the War of the Roses was the single biggest influence, but lately I've been wondering if what he really means is that the Henry VI + Richard III Shakespeare tetralogy is the biggest influence, because in truth the Shakespearean parallels we find often feel more informative for the text of ASOIAF than the strictly historical comparisons.

[aeriondripflame]

lineage and legacy are fun conversations but let’s talk about lineage through knighting. something about who deemed you worthy, who raised you up and brought you into knighthood, and what that says about the two of them; the knightee as a reflection of the knighter.

[bohemian-nights]

People really are missing the point of a character like Nettles. Being the a non-Valyrian dragonrider is what makes her different(in every positive definition of that word) and helps to serve a larger purpose in this story.

Valyrian blood is not special. It’s not needed to do great things. No one is special because of what family they happen to be born into.

A non-Valyrian Nettles shows that we are more than the circumstances which we are born into. Our birth, our names, and our very blood does not define us. Our actions are what do. We can overcome so much and rise to become absolutely extraordinary with a little bit of determination, patience, and a dash of help along the way. Nettles exemplifies that to the fullest extent.

She's more than a Black Valryian. She doesn’t have to be Valyrian. She shouldn’t have to be Valyrian.

She’s a survivor. She’s a final girl. She’s a Black low-born girl likely without a drop of dragons blood that tames a wild dragon with patience that killed countless others who had dragons blood. She survived the Dance where others high and low alike fell and perished to become a firewitch to the Burned Men.

Her legacy is immortalized in the history books(and by the Burned Men cause they still worship her) as one of the last(if not the last) dragonrider(s) before Dany all without having any known Valyrian ancestry.

[asoiaf-source]

Sansa as a character is completely dependent on her associations for her survival. It is her family ties that give her the opportunities to survive

Her Stark name made her a valuable hostage during the war

Her Stark blood keep her alive after the war as she was still valuable for her connection to the North and Winterfell, to use as a pawn in several marriage plots

Her mother’s looks made her valuable to Baelish, who facilitated her to escape KL for his own purposes, not just for her sake

Sansa’s mother being a Tully gave her a place in the Vale as someone Lysa’s accepts and allowed her to earn Sweetrobin's trust

You are right, if she was a nobody, well she wouldn’t have a POV or have any major character importance in the narrative. Very few nobodies have a POVs, let alone one of the main ones. She would be like Jeyne Poole. If she didn’t look like Cat, would Baelish bother to help her? His second chance to have and mold Catelyn? Baelish is a self-centered person, his goal are his goals, he wanted Cat, he was able to secure her daughter, her look-alike in Sansa... I don’t think he would have bothered with Arya, or even any of her more Tully like brothers either, even though they are also Cat’s kids.  It isn’t their blood or claim he is truly interested in, it is Cat and Sansa looks the most like Cat - that is important  aspect to keep in mind in their dynamic, he recalls and compares her to Cat too often for it not to be relevant

Sansa being a Stark and her mother a Tully are important to her survival, her name and looks are part of her story, you really can’t separate them and have the same story with her, why is this even a thing?

I don't know where the idea that having the Stark name offered Sansa less protection in KL than not having it comes from but do these people forget that Jeyne Poole exists?

Sansa wasn't completely safe and did suffer greatly under the Lannisters but do people really think Jeyne got a better deal because she wasn't a Stark? The Lannisters didn't need her, so they gave to to Littlefinger and he put her in a brothel and forced her into prostitution. She wasn't a Stark so they had no need for her and just threw her away without a second thought. They didn't keep Sansa because she was lady like and polite, the same could be said about Jeyne. They did it because she was a Stark and they could use her against her family.

So yes, having the Stark name clearly protected Sansa more than not having it.

[horizon-verizon]

The fact that HOTD creators have gotten so brave that they’re actively shitting on GRRM’s style of writing to defend a mid show with mid characters when this mid show and their opinions about it would be irrelevant if it wasn’t for the world GRRM created

[crazy-dane-art]

"He was no true knight," she whispered to him.

[ladystoneboobs]

[Sandor Clegane, to Beric Dondarrion:]"Say, make my horse a knight. He never shits in the hall and doesn't kick more than most, he deserves to be knighted. Unless you meant to steal him too." -Arya VII, aSoS

confirmation that stranger, the hound's vicious hellhorse, was classier than tywin lannister's warhorse, and that tywin's horse is especially unworthy of knighthood.

[addaerontruther]

hello!! i must admit i have not heard much about addaeron ship but i am increasingly curious!! would you mind sharing what it’s all about perhaps i’ll join the club

PLEASE JOIN OUR CLUB!! Sorry this took me so long to answer, but I knew it was going to turn into a dissertation and I was right. HOPE IT'S AT LEAST A GOOD READ!

It starts with Daeron being sent to Oldtown. At this point in the story, he's the only Targaryen, ever, to be sent to ward. He's at the center of the anti-Valyrian club with no one around that looks like him or understands where he comes from. He was a Targaryen prince with a pretty dragon in a city notorious for hating Targaryen's and dragons — which would've been hard enough, without the differing races & customs, considering his sexual identity. He was a baby gay of 12 when he was sent to Westeros's Vatican.

Cue: Addam of Hull, shiphand to his mother, Marilda, constantly working on one voyage or another. The biggest port in Westeros is King's Landing, right near Driftmark, but the second biggest port is Oldtown. My theory, and most other shippers, is that this is where they met. I like to think Daeron and Addam met by chance on the docks, and Daeron decided to take a closer look because he was the first person he'd seen in Oldtown with the silver hair and purple eyes that signaled Valyrian heritage. Once they actually met, and talked, the connection was instantaneous.

I believe Daeron fought it at first, and tried to just keep him as a friend, but the more time they spent together, the harder it became. Addam ultimately made the first move, but from the moment he did, Daeron was all in. They both were, really.

They spent the next few years falling in love and having their moments when they could. Daeron took him flying on Tessarion whenever he was able, and Addam loved both dragon's. When Mouse (Addam's mother's ship if you're unfamiliar) was docked in Oldtown, they were together every single second possible. When they weren't, they sent letters back and forth through other shipwrights moving between them, but that was rare for fear of being found out. Mostly they just spent their time apart wishing they were together.

And then the war started, and Addam was no longer able to visit Oldtown. They were unable to send any messages back and forth, but Daeron had anticipated this day and made the decision long ago that there was only one person in his life worth fighting for, and it was not the Greens. When Ormund set out with his army, Daeron stayed put; thus Ormund begging King's Landing for a dragon despite his squire having one.

When the Red Sowing happened and Corlys came to Addam and Alyn, Addam saw an opportunity to rise up to a level where he, a bastard, would be good enough for a prince — a dragon prince at that — and give himself a chance to earn amnesty for his lover. Having learned High Valyrian commands from his time with Daeron and Tessarion, Addam succeeded where Alyn failed, and claimed Seasmoke.

After the Gullet, Addam and Corlys had a conversation that not even Mushroom reports on; I believe this is when he confessed to his grandfather, now hand of the Queen, that he loved Daeron, and would fight as hard as he could as long as he could, but he needed Daeron to live.

Unfortunately, Daeron did not get that memo. He heard a bastard from Driftmark named Addam claimed the dragon of the late Laenor Velaryon, and that was enough. Addam actively fighting for the enemy on dragonback meant he was now on Aemond (long since Prince Regent at this point) and Vhagar's radar. So, he climbed onto Tessarion's back, and joined the war himself.

His victories were all honorable and/or bloodless for a long time. He was, mostly, used for intimidation and scouting. And then Maelor was ripped apart by the smallfolk after Lady Caswell barred her gates to him, and the rage and stress and pressure bested Daeron, and he sacked the city so hard they renamed it Bitterbridge (previously known as Stonebridge).

Despite this, Corlys still tries to spare Daeron. He asks Rhaenyra to let him live, but she refuses, sends Hugh and Ulf on Vermithor and Silverwing to kill him, and asks Addam to stay in King's Landing to protect her and her sons.

Things don't go as she planned, of course. Hugh and Ulf join Daeron rather than fight him, and Rhaenyra, understandably, unravels. Mysaria convinces her that Daemon betrayed her for love, and then she decides that Addam, too, is a traitor, and should be sharply questioned to prove his innocence... something that is, more often than not, fatal in Westeros. Her having such a strong and immediate change of opinion in him after these betrayals makes a lot more sense if you believe she knew he loved Daeron and feared he had something to do with Ulf/Hugh and/or would betray her alongside them.

Addam was no traitor, even if the love of his life had, as far as he knew, lost his damned mind. Addam had no way to know Daeron hated the betrayers and was actively planning their deaths to rid himself of them despite their extra fire power changing the tides of the war, or that he hadn't actually been involved in the carnage of First Tumbleton, or that he had, in fact, begged the Hightower in charge to make it stop.

So, Addam raised an army and turned it to fight Daeron. The actual killing of his lover was the first thing he did when he got to Tumbleton, because he knew he would never be able to do what he had to do if he saw him. Despite setting the tents on fire, he still turned towards Tessarion the second she "took to the skies, shrieking and spitting flame." I believe he wanted to see if Daeron was on her back, and that was why he kept spinning around her on Seasmoke in the beginning.

Once he saw her saddle was empty, he knew his mission succeeded, and he lost all heart. Tessarion was riderless and had a taste for blood, yet he couldn't get himself to make a fatal attack... or attack at all, really. This was Daeron's dragon. A dragon Daeron had his whole life, the only friend he had in Oldtown when Addam was gone, and a dragon Addam himself was familiar with and loved dearly. He couldn't do it.

Tessarion couldn't do it either. Daeron might be dead, but he was still her only rider ever. She could still feel him, his loves and hates, and she couldn't get herself to hurt Addam or Seasmoke. When Vermithor started getting too close, she left.

But Addam and Seasmoke didn't. They slammed into Vermithor, a dragon twice their size, in what could only be a suicide mission, and Addam proceeded to attempt to eliminate Jaehaerys's creature (derogatory).

He would've failed, and who knows what carnage Vermithor would've inflicted after, if Tessarion hadn't come back. There was no reason for it. Daeron was dead, not forcing her to do this. But Daeron was dead, and Addam was the thing on earth he loved most. She slammed into them, and it became Seasmoke, Addam, and Tessarion against Vermithor.

Ultimately, Addam died in the same field where he killed Daeron, alongside his dragon. Tessarion, the smallest dragon of fighting size in the entire war, one third of Vermithor's size, avenged them. She was not in good shape after and bitch ass Benji Blackwood had her put out of her misery, but she, ultimately, killed herself in an attempt to protect, and then avenge, the man her rider loved.

It's worth noting that Silverwing was also present at this battle, and her and Vermithor had been mated for around 100 years at that point. She, too, was riderless, and she did nothing to help him. She actually said fuck all that and flew away. Tessarion and Seasmoke may have known each other as hatchlings (and I believe they did/they were both Meleys's children), but we know Vermithor and Silverwing did. We know they had a bond. And yet they did nothing to help each other.

Tessarion didn't mate with Seasmoke for no reason. She didn't kill herself trying to help him and Addam for no reason. Daeron and Addam loved each other so much that even in death, Daeron's dragon, who had seen them fall in love and felt it right alongside Daeron, still felt it, and gave her life trying to preserve it.

TLDR; their relationship explains 75,000 plot holes for them both and George couldn't have made it more obvious, in my humble opinion. It's about love, and youth, and war, and two boys that felt alone for much of their lives being together even in death.

[cosmicwar]

[duchess-of-oldtown]

This Week on Keeping up with the Greyjoys...

Theon: I'm on a voyage of really finding myself again

Asha: Stannis is just really out here enforcing gender roles in a fucking crisis... anyway back to that asshole who flips his hair and left me walking in a fucking blizzard on a broken ankle

Victarion: WHAT DO YOU MEAN GRINDR ISN'T AN APP FOR SHARPENING MY WEAPONS *smashes phone*

Euron: *showing off his entire collection of villain costumes* It's all about dressing for the job you want not the one you have.

Aeron *tied to a bow of the Silence*: EEEEEERRRRRRGGGGGGHHHHHH

Balon: ☠️

[shipcestuous]

Can I just rant about some of the Greens on HoTD for a moment?

So, I was really into Helaemond for the 2 year break. I still ship it, but I warmed up to Helaegon as well. I read Tom Glynn-Carney’s words on Aegon being a proud father and seeing his children as these pure, new, beautiful beings that he’s created. That DID something to me, and I find myself wishing we had scenes of him and Helaena actually being affectionate with each other, him being protective of her, SOMETHINGGGGG

I might write a ficlet for them. Just a few scene fixes that would’ve made 2x01 hit harder.

I hope they conceive their third baby on screen, since that one is seemingly cut from the show so far. I hope it’s not non-con or sum shit.

It was nice seeing Aegon be so affectionate towards Jaehaerys. HIs children with Helaena, or at least his son, obviously mean a lot more to him than his bastards shown to us in s1. Of course a lot of that was just set up for the fallout of Jaehaerys being killed. Awfully convenient to show him caring for his son in the same episode that son is killed. It would have been better if it had been set up earlier. But still, it was really nice.

I actually really liked this moment with Helaena, too:

One could interpret it as him making fun of her. But I thought it was affectionate and a rather kind and respectful alternative to what he might have said instead, like, "Everyone ignore my batshit wife."

Sometimes it's hard to remember that this isn't just a loveless arranged marriage like we often see with royalty. She's also his sister, and surely he loves her. She might not be the wife he would have freely chosen, but she's a lot more than just his wife.

I would be really happy if they gave us some kind of moment between them. A moment when he was protective or comforting would be really nice.

[sophiemariepl]

Okay, I know that I’m most likely gonna sound like a boomer, but hear me out:

Today’s HotD fans are a perfect example to me of what is wrong with a large proportion of modern audiences and the way people consume pop culture and media in general.

Ever since the premiere of the Season 1, I am becoming convinced that going beyond black-and-white perspective is… well, beyond capabilities of a growing number of folks out there.

Like, to so many of them it is either Team Black or Team Green.

Either Rhaenyra or Alicent. Or either Rhaenyra or Aegon. Either Daemon or Aemond. Either the Targaryens & the Velaryons or the Hightowers. Et cetera.

And once someone leans more to one side of the story, they just seem to idealize their team and completely demonize the other. Once you love Rhaenyra, she becomes the perfect heir, progressive and feminist, and Alicent becomes a cruel, back-stabbing b*tch and servant of patriarchy. And vice versa, once you prefer Alicent, she is a 100% victim of her circumstances with no agency whatsoever and Rhaenyra becomes a spoiled b*tch who is unable to make anything good out of her opportunities.

And it’s just so beyond the point for me.

People, this is not some football match where you pick your team and wish all the worst to the other.

It’s a fictional historical fantasy chronicle about a downfall of one of the greatest houses in the history of this universe. Nobody here is perfect to rule; in fact, every faction here is in one way or another bad and makes decisions that are just incompetent.

The whole point of George R.R. Martin writing about the Dance of Dragons story is to ask the question:

What happens when among all the heirs to choose from, none of them is good?

And let’s finally stick to that.

[jozor-johai]

This is just a short note I will expand on elsewhere, but GRRM has this somewhat infamous quote about LOTR, about what to do with the orcs after the story ends. This is about rulership—what happens after the conquest?

Ruling is hard. This was maybe my answer to Tolkien, whom, as much as I admire him, I do quibble with. Lord of the Rings had a very medieval philosophy: that if the king was a good man, the land would prosper. We look at real history and it’s not that simple. Tolkien can say that Aragorn became king and reigned for a hundred years, and he was wise and good. But Tolkien doesn’t ask the question: What was Aragorn’s tax policy? Did he maintain a standing army? What did he do in times of flood and famine? And what about all these orcs? By the end of the war, Sauron is gone but all of the orcs aren’t gone – they’re in the mountains. Did Aragorn pursue a policy of systematic genocide and kill them? Even the little baby orcs, in their little orc cradles?

Part of what I love to death about ASOIAF is that it seems fundamentally more interested in these questions than the excitement of the conquest itself.

I see this quote brought up about the Others every once in a while, but I also think that we might be seeing one iteration of this idea with Dany in Meereen and the children of the slavers:

“The Sons of the Harpy are laughing in their pyramids,” Skahaz said, just this morning. “What good are hostages if you will not take their heads?” In his eyes, she was only a weak woman. Hazzea was enough. What good is peace if it must be purchased with the blood of little children? “These murders are not their doing,” Dany told the Green Grace, feebly. “I am no butcher queen.” (ADWD Dany IV)

There are obvious differences—for a start, humans have the potential to grow up to be anything, rather than the known entity of the inherent evil when it comes to orcs.

In an ASOIAF-relevant context, though, the question is similar: you won, do you eradicate your enemies? Their remaining families? What if it looks like a direct path to peace for those you were fighting for? “What good is peace if it must be purchased with the blood of little children?”

Considering that slavery is some of the clearest evil we’ve seen in the books thus far, I think this is one way GRRM is be bringing his thoughts on fantasy rulership to a more human context in ASOIAF.

The issue of letting the children live (or not) also makes for another very interesting parallel between Dany and Robert Baratheon, who is another key figure in ASOIAF’s exploration for how one rules after the battle has been won. Barristan makes the connection nearly explicitly for the reader, standing up for Ned’s name:

“Your Grace,” said Selmy, “Eddard Stark played a part in your father’s fall, but he bore you no ill will. When the eunuch Varys told us that you were with child, Robert wanted you killed, but Lord Stark spoke against it. Rather than countenance the murder of children, he told Robert to find himself another Hand.” (ADWD Dany II)

Robert was faced with the same choice and, over the course of his reign, has been given two different takes, one to start his reign and one at the end of it. Robert’s peace was bought with the blood of Rhaegar’s children, the young Aegon and Rhaenys, delivered—albeit unsolicited—by the Lannisters, to cement Robert’s legitimacy and their own stake in his rule. At the end of his reign, Robert is faced with the premise of a new Targaryen baby being born and Ned offers an contrary opinion much like Dany’s own (in spirit if not in allegiance):

“Robert, I ask you, what did we rise against Aerys Targaryen for, if not to put an end to the murder of children?”

There’s plenty more to be said, but I just want to point out this angle for interpreting the GRRM LOTR quote. For one, sometimes people take issue with how literally GRRM himself is enacting his criticisms (saying things like, 'we never see Robert's tax policy either')—but this is a great example of how GRRM can raise a criticism that fits for a different series and make it work within his own world by adjusting the circumstances.

Also, I think that for discussions that attempt to predict where the story will go from here based on comments like this from GRRM, it’s important to see where GRRM is already exploring these ideas. In ASOIAF, this sort of application doesn’t require this idea to be explored with some kind of similarly-undying evil like the orcs or like Sauron, GRRM is applying these ideas to much more human evils, like slavery, and much more human applications, like any kind of military victory.

[hetagrammy]

Asoiaf au doodle of Molly and Lovino judging someone together (it's what they do best)

[15-lizards]

“Every time a Targaryen is born the gods flip a coin” the concept of Nature Versus Nurture would blow some of y’alls minds.

[horizon-verizon]

Daenerys was created intentionally in a time where female characters were not getting that kind of attention and care, for people to then disregard her power and relevance in favour of LESSER MALE characters speaks volumes about them.

How do you actually sit up and rant about why Jon is tptwp and we are just so blind when it comes to loving Daenerys that we overlook it, and that we just aren’t seeing the bigger picture... there are already SO MANY prophesied male heroes who fight to save the world, we aren’t gagging.

Daenerys being a woman is a subversion of those tropes, for the fandom to then act like they are so smart for upholding them even when there is a clear choice being made here shows us how much of a male obsessed idiot you are, even bringing up fucking Stannis, of all people, what are y’all on ?? Daenerys brought back dragons to the world, controls three at once, triggered a continental slave revolt, a mother to millions, she is a frightened waif turned king and conqueror, she literally cannot be compared with the rest.

I said it once and I'll say it again here: sexism really just rots the brain and holds us all back. They will do just about anything to preserve their male superiority and we find this out pretty early on in our childhood. Bc how the hell do you see a teen girl bring back dragons with magic and conclude she has to die for there to be real order in either/both society or the entire universe when males throughout the story have done actually horrible things without magic?!