#ask polystumbles

[polystumbles]

re: your safer sex guidelines. how do you deal with & combat STI-shaming and stigma? what happens if someone in your polycule has an STI, especially a lifelong one?

That’s not really the objective of our safer sex guidelines, so it’s not addressed in there. The guidelines are about minimizing risk of transmission, and empowering everyone for informed consent. As such its not a tool for fighting stigma.  

We haven’t had this STI talk. Perhaps we should. 

However, to answer your question, here’s how I would handle it. Once any emotions subside it would be a rational discussion on risks between partners, then each person would decide how best to protect themselves in light of the developments. 

What adjustments might be needed, if any, would vary according to each person’s risk aversion, the risk of the sti, and the methods/effectiveness of monitoring and prevention. Those decisions may even include not being sexual with partner whose partners pose too much a bodily risk, or even not continuing a relationship. Such is the price of bodily autonomy. 

However, when you know what STI(s) you are dealing with you can more accurately assess your risks of transmission and methods of protection. You’re probably at a bigger risk not knowing whether someone has an STI, than knowing a partner has an STI.

Ironically, some high impact STIs, like HIV, can be more effectively monitored, prevented, and controlled than some lower impact STIs, like HSV (hard to protect against, rarely monitored, difficult to transmit, low impact on life, utterly commonplace). You can’t tell a person what to do to protect themselves, but you can accept their fear, and provide trustworthy resources to help a partner make an informed decision, and try to provide reassurance that you can handle your side of protecting them. But none of this help is debate: what a new partner might read as stigma, could just as easily be a history of mistakes, a context the partner doesn’t understand.

If you feel a partner or metamour’s position is unreasonable, you might want to consider what are the barriers to change for them, and act accordingly.

For more guidance, check out the PolyWeekly podcast and the episodes under the STI tag.

[they-came-to-slayy]

torisoulphoenix:

geaniewebbie:

screengeniuz:

sale-aholic:

polystumbles:

When Tisdale asked Steinem what she would tell black women who said the feminist movement isn’t about them or doesn’t speak to them, Steinem replied, “I don’t say anything. I listen.”

There you have it.

My favorite part: “ “I realize that things being what they are, probably the white middle-class part of the movement got reported more,” Steinem continued. “But if you look at the numbers and the very first poll of women thinking about responding on women’s issues, African-American women were twice as likely to support feminism and feminist issues as White women.”

“I don’t say anything. I listen.”

LEARN SOMETHING TODAY.

“I don’t say anything. I listen”

Love it.

[polystumbles]

Diary 08/27-30/2016: The Art of the Family Trip

Amy’s Aunt and Grandma live in Chicago, and the kids had never met either. We decided to head to Chicago so that thing 2, our resident artist, could celebrate her Birthday amidst the great art of Chicago, and meeting the new family. It so happened that Amy’s mom and Dad decided to join us and had already driven over earlier in the week. I had made most of the plans, booking us a lovely executive suite, and her parents a room in the same hotel, all at a great discount, because that's what I do! Get great deals!

On the flight over the kids are awesome, because that's what they do. They read, the play, as we split them up thing 2 with me, thing 1 with mom. It's smooth sailing all the way into the hotel room, where the kids are excited to meet up with their grandparents. We hand them off for a spell, and settle into our room.

Once they’re gone, I haven't forgotten Amy’s reaction in NOLA. How she mentioned relief at getting sex out of the way. At the first opportunity, I make sure to throw her on the bed and fuck her. Rather than resent her statement, I decided to play with it.

The rest of the afternoon is great. We go for late morning Dim Sum, visit the Wicker Park Spy Agency, head to the Intuit Art gallery, for a large collection of African American art, and then down to Hyde park for board games and Ice cream. We take the kids back to the hotel, order some deep dish pizza (when in Rome they say), put them to bed, then walk over to our evening show,  leaving the grandparents to babysit.

 I got us tickets to an evening variety show with some burlesque, music, and comedy. We arrive early, walk around some more before settling down with some drinks before the doors open. We talk about a million things, but mostly we wind down to one question from Amy, “why haven't you left me?” If Z and I are so much more compatible, and we had gone through such a tough time, and even polyamory seemed to come easier for the two of us, why didn't I just leave her at any point once it became clear how much stronger my relationship with Z has become.

It was an interesting conversation. Both in terms of what she assumed, and what she observed. I told her as clearly as I could that the answer was very much the same answer to why I stay with Z despite her challenges: I’m here for the potential, not the promise, of our days and nights together. I talk about how we’re partners, her, me, z, in different and complementary ways. That perhaps the biggest thing we need is to let go of who we were, and continue to find, instead, who we can be. We can be great, we just can’t be who we were. Who we were had stopped working as a healthy relationship. We needed to forge a new path. But we are people capable of doing it, and she is someone worth walking that new path with.

We watched the show, then stopped by a lounge on the way back for some impromptu dancing. It was one of the few lounges on our walk back that had people of color -- the others were whiter than mayo, and so drunk it was might have been cinco do mayo(naise) -- so it was not going to be my crowd. We have a good time, avoid the few overly drunk people, and get out before we turn into pumpkins. 

On the walk back Amy and I stop at one of the bridges to talk some more. She had printed out a poem to read to me. It was the poem Polystumbles’ Last Theorem -- a poem I wrote for her back in 2014, that to this day remains as what is probably my all time favorite that I’ve written. We laugh at the wordplay and remember how it came to be, that she had a need -- I hadn’t written her a poem in a while -- and she gave me a constraint -- that it be based on Fermat’s Last Theorem. Why that constraint? Well years ago I had given her a book on the hunt for a solution, and it was a scintillating read. I don’t think she had it’s poly-esque implications, as explored in my poem, in mind. We laughed, smiled, cried, and walked our tired asses back to the hotel. We fell asleep after relieving the grandparents.

Sunday, Thing 2 largely takes charge. She navigates us using a map to the places I ask her to lead us. We have a quick snack ahead of her birthday brunch, then walk to Millennium Park for Cloud Gate, then some Chakaia Booker. We make it down to Buckingham fountain, before its time for brunch at Bohemian House with the grandparents, the great aunt, and the great grandma. Thing 2 loves brunch almost as much as she loved dim sum. I have a feeling that trips around her birthday are going to be a common thing. From brunch, it was off to Navy Pier, with a stop at After-Words bookstore because Thing 1 needs books like some people need air.  

Sunday night, Chicago didn’t have as much going on, and Amy and I decided to stay in and rest from the day’s insane walking. We take the kids to the hotel’s pool and unwind the rest of the evening, ordering in some dinner.

Monday, we bid the grandparents adieu and pack up ourselves. I laugh when I find some “sprinkles” from my Friday trip to the Ice Cream Museum in my pocket. The hotel’s paintings are not anchored to the wall, so a new entry joined my collection of Six Word Story additions. With just until the early afternoon left, we take the kids to museum row, hoping to see the aquarium. However, the line is so long that we end up going to the Field museum instead, which Isn’t exactly a bad option! Thing 2 adores the ancient jewelry and the rare gems. Surprise! Not. They end up having to be peeled out of the museum when it’s time to go.

We make it home, exhausted, but smiles all around even near midnight. All in all it was a great family trip.

[polystumbles]

If I had to pick — I wouldn’t fucking pick. I’m fucking polyamorous.

Polystumbles

tl;dr version of this response.

[polystumbles]

Compersion is a bonus, not a requirement, for openness.

polystumbles

tl;dr version of this response.

[polystumbles]

Martyrdom is no way to have a relationship. It breeds resentment. Resentment is a blank check -- when cashed it bankrupts many a relationship.

polystumbles

tl;dr version of this response

[polystumbles]

My partner wants polyamory. I'm too insecure about myself and don't like the girl that he chose. I don't want to leave him but is it the only way for us three?

This has warning flags going up all over it. Let’s make the most out of it.

I’m a firm believer that people ask questions of the people who they think will give them the answer they want to hear. I have a very pro-poly blog, so in asking me, I think you are honestly looking for encouragement and support. That is, you already have somewhere a willingness to open up this relationship. (I’m using Poly loosely here because you haven’t provided much detail about your current relationship, or what you mean by “he chose”.)

My question to you is: Why? Make a list of reasons why you would would want to open up this relationship. If the answers are all about him, this won’t be successful. But if not, you might be on the verge some very empowering times.

To take that to my relationships I can tell you some of what everyone gets out of Poly —

[edit: removed what I think Z and wife get out of our poly relationship. I feel writing that doesn't live up to me "don't speak for them" value.]

* Me: Two incredible, beautiful, intelligent, values driven women who love me. My physical, intellectual, and emotional needs met, without feeling like I smother one or the other. I get to meet my hunger, and not feel like I am recreating the failings of my father.

Forget about all the reasons why polyamory wouldn’t/shouldn’t work for you. Focus on the good that can come of it for you (that you want) and work on making that happen. 

Notice how this exercise isn’t about him or your relationship with him. It’s about you. Did you have crush on some other person? Go for it. He never wants to go the museum, go while he’s on a date. Want a triad? Go date a couple (not with him). Want to face your insecurity? Go on some dates. Want to learn to play the piano? Go take lessons. Coupledom is oppressive. Go dance barefoot on its grave.

If you can’t make a list for yourself, or if that list doesn’t hold much of value to you, or if he can’t accept the important things on that list than don’t do it. I don’t know whether you should break up, that’s up to you and your circumstance, but you don’t have to consent to polyamory if you don’t want to.

It also sounds a little like you are thinking about a triad. Polyamory isn’t just triads. You don’t have to like the person he chooses to date on his own. You don’t have to interact much. You just have to ultimately respect each other and negotiated boundaries. You have to have most of your needs met. For example, Wife never much cared for Hipster when I dated her for 6 months. However, wife enjoyed the stability even as she couldn’t get her usual voyeuristic thrill because she didn’t find her attractive. They met just once.

Also not every open relationship is polyamorous. Sounds like you are starting out as a couple,  then you also don’t have to open up all at once. Set completely irrational boundaries at first (and know they will fade). Wife’s oddest first rule was only women of color (because that’s who she found hot and she could feel better about “stealing me away” from women of color if she shared me back.) Other rules we had at one time included: sleep at home every night, no sex on the first date, and meet within a month. All have since faded away. With Z there are no more rules. They are peers. All that remains is courtesy. Z and I, however, have negotiated safer sex rules with other partners if we introduce anyone.  

Even though Wife, Z, and I gave the triad thing a try, we aren’t a triad. And honestly I don’t give many fucks about relationship classifications. I stopped caring.

That all said, sounds like you need to have more talks with the he (even before you have one — and you will — with her). Insecurity is a condition you feel not a feature you come with. He needs to reassure you. You have to help him do it, by asking for it again and again. Should he know to do so? No. Men are not clairvoyant. We’re clair-ignorant. Actually, all humans are. Assume they are and life goes a lot smoother. It’s great if someone gives you something you don’t ask for, but that’s bonus level. The relationship baseline is whether they give it to you when you ask for it. Try, and try again till it feels right. It will be a moving target.

If it doesn’t feel right, slow down. You are probably moving to fast. If it still doesn’t feel right then, face your choice. Decide your non-negotiable, draw your lines in the sand and decide if he is worth the (poly) price of admission, so that he can decide if you are worth the (mono) price of admission..

[polystumbles]

We are poly & i love both my bf and gf very much, however it is becoming more & more clear that my partner is more enamoured with our gf than with me. It hurts so very much. But if I say anything its just me being insecure. How can I approach this?

If this is a new relationship with the girlfriend:

I’d recommend you sit on a couch with a good view of them. Pour a good cup of tea and watch their interactions (I don’t mean sex).  Record in your memory how happy he is now.  That is the giddy glow of new relationship energy. He felt that with you, but biology is biology and (almost) no one feels that forever (though there are hacks).  Unless your partner is a freak like me, that glow fades but he will be reminded of having that feeling with you, he will feel parts of it for you, if not right away than soon, it will be reawakened in bits. It’s a chemical called dopamine and overtime gets overcome in most people by the pairing hormone oxytocin (typically somewhere 6-18 months). If he’s a freak like me, my NRE tail is very long,  he still feels the same for you but you may be blind to it -- as Amy so often is. So when you see how he smiles for her, you might not be seeing when he smiles that way for you – probably because of those insecurities.

If this is an established relationship: and you don’t think the above applies. You should start by asking yourself 2 questions:

So what? Disarm the issue by seeing it’s really a non-issue. Is it even possible to love people equally? What would that even look like? When you stop and think about it, the idea is non-sensical: people give love and need love differently. You: snowflake. GF: snowflake. Both: unique. You may need less or more of the different things – and love isn’t one thing.

Now what? You need something now  -- that something is called reassurance. Sure you can fault him for not providing enough of it now, but really what will that get you other than a nasty breakup and a strike against you. So do what makes sense in the bedroom when you want something: try it a little by yourself, and then ask for it.

What do I mean try it a little by yourself? Here’s an example of an exercise I did with Amy (nee Wife). She read an article on the 5 love languages. She Identified 2 things about herself: Which love language are you most receptive to, which love language are you most expressive in? I did the same. We discussed our findings. You can think about it all by yourself: think back on your relationship(s)– how do you best feel loved? How does your partner prefer to show it? Tell your partner you want that. Ask for it clearly, and let him dictate the last mile. Then also recognize, and acknowledge when he shows love how he prefers to show it, because that will also get you more of it. 

I think you’ll become more confident that he loves you and worry less about who he loves more, when it’s clear that your love is bespoke.

Hat tip to @blissmanifesto​ who first recognized wife’s love language and sent us down that path with a comment she made a while back –thanks!

[polystumbles]

2/28/14 Every time I read your posts my heart hurts for Wife. I know I dont know hear her side of the story but being a wife myself and having the fears I do, I just cant help but feel Wife has become 2nd.

rhojoprocesses, I think this is very important comment. First, there is aspect of my focus in writing. Second there is the question of roles and reassurances.

Let me address the first. I tend to write about Z (and occasionally Bee) for a number of reasons. Z is newly becoming important in my life, so there is a lot to process about her that I don’t need to process about wife.

I actually stopped writing a lot about wife deliberately several months back. When her and Z started dating, I didn’t want color Z’s opinion of wife. Especially because Wife was dealing with some trauma brought up at her new job, that has since become more mitigated, and whose effects have now been mostly processed and contained. It’s similar to why wife stopped reading this blog — even before they dated she wanted to understand Z on her own terms not through my lens. In short, in my blog usually Z will see herself through what I see, so she is free to correct me at any point, and I can share with the world our development. 

Quite the contrary, I maintain a rather incredible relationship with wife. Different from Z, but engaging active and stronger today than before I began dating Z. My interest and love of her hasn’t waned, but strengthened in our almost 20 years together. We just show our love differently than Z and I. Where Z & I use words and physicality, wife and I are builders and our love inspires and challenges. Sometimes that leads us on adventures (including poly) sometimes that leads us to plot new world orders. 

On the second point, feeling “second” as you put it is only a problem if you want to feel “first”. But rank order is a shitty way to love and be loved.

Here’s the real question: are you getting your needs met? If your needs are getting met than the rest is semantics. Wife has made it clear that she wants 1) inclusion 2) to be my dessert 3) to feel desired and loved. Wife and I have been poly for 8 years, and I’ve dated Z for about a year. I’ve had other year long relationships — heck Bee and I make 2 years this month — but none with this intensity of my relation to Z.

I think of relationships less in terms of rank and order, and more in terms of levels. Here’s something I quickly threw together so don’t hold me to this, or hate on the use of BFF:

As you go up the emotional commitment also rises, right side is platonic, to show that also rises in emotional commitment. A relationship in any of these boxes I view as a success, so this is less of a relationship ladder. 

Anyways, what I mean here is that once you are in LTR love, there isn’t any ranking to be had. I think its fair to say that someone in a higher level “pull rank” in some way on a lower level, but not fair to say that about peers on the same level. So the concept of “second” doesn’t make sense to me. After all if you can be “second” to someone than just as easily you could be second to something — a job, a hobby, a mission. At that point, it has little to do specifically with poly. If not poly then something else would be making your needs go unfulfilled.

I’m working on a post about jealousy, sharing some of wife’s insight soon. 

[polystumbles]

In thinking about that last Anon Ask, I thought it might be helpful to bring in some theory from change management to understand the barriers to moving away from jealousy.  If you think of those issues raised as things we need to change about ourselves and our relationships we can find some additional help. According to change management theory there are three reasons that people do not want change:

Unknowing. I (we) need information to feel better about the change.

Unable: I (we)need skills to feel like I (we) can make it through the change. 

Unwilling: I (we) need something else, or this isn’t for me. 

You can overcome 1 and 2 with some dedication to listening, identification, and communication. Item #3 is the hardest to address. First, you don’t know its the cause until you deal with #1 and #2, so usually the answer is see #1. 

I represented it as a pyramid because, I’d day that’s the order of frequency. Wife was almost stuck at unable — because she hates online dating. So literally, I used to be tasked with finding out joint partners because for a while that’s what she needed.  

I’m not saying you should manage relationships like organizations, but if you are transitioning out of monogamy, it might help to look at a framework for how to approach your own change (or your partners’). 

I think I left out that last half of #3 from my initial reply. Sometimes people aren’t poly. That’s ok too. There is nothing wrong with being unwilling to be polyamorous. Relationships also end. Poly isn’t a cure-all, and one shouldn’t, as cunning minx describes, expect “adding more people” to fix broken relationships.  Whereas, if the change were about accepting poly, or accepting gender nonconformity, or race, I’d say “unwilling to change” is not really an option. You don't get a vote on other people's dignity.

[polystumbles]

Could you be satisfied living monogamously with the "right" person? If qualities you fell for in other people were already in your wife, would it still be likely for you guys to branch out?

Great question.

I talked about it with Wife first. She said, unequivocally no. I laughed and offered “what if I were an astrophysicist pornstar?” She then had to remind me that that would still not be monogamous. “I mean maybe—-” she countered with with a hypothetical she thought might work. “If she were a brilliant person with multiple personalities who came out at regular intervals.”

As for my answer, well, many thoughts:1) Anything is possible, so in theory yes. In theory cold thermonuclear fusion is possible too. But we put most of our energy into what is not only possible but for whom we have the methods today. I wondered if that was indeed possible, especially after meeting Emma (who was the first other person I ever met with “the hunger” and matching intellect.) But Emma was gay. I was happy with Wife. She amazed me at so many opportunities. Not the least of which was agreeing to let me be in charge of my own sexual satisfaction, then eventually accepting Z. My path has led me to Wife and Z. I’m immeasurably happy now. I don’t know the future. But I love now. I’d never trade it for anything or anyone. I think what poly offers in a world of seemingly endless possibility, is openness to possibility.

2) Realistically? No. I am a sappy, sappy man. I am a horny, horny man. I am a challenging, challenging man (not in a bad way).  It’s not about who the person is in relation to me, but who I am in relation to them. I can consume a partner. Wife or Z — both have everything I would want in a partner for life. Both are wicked smart, both are beautiful, secure, caring, and have integrity. I could spend a lifetime with just either of them (and admittedly that’s speaking as the me who wife has forged) and I would be happy. But they would not be happy — with me. I would be all over Z when she needed to disappear, I would make wife resent my desires from a relentless onslaught (this part I know from experience). Too much of me means, too many little presents, too many sappy poems, too many baked goods, too many home cooked meals, too many 2 hour fuck sessions, too many discussions on politics. It means not enough time for my partners to grow and be themselves, to explore there passions because I am vocal and always going to pursue mine. The distance, the time away, the sharing, these are things that make the experience with me better — it allows for my partners to desire me. My desire for them is already bottomless. I also think Poly has made me a better person for them. I make a fraction of the mistakes I made with Wife, with Z — it’s almost unfair. I have better communication with Wife. I am a more patient and loving father.

3) Historically, maybe, but no. I was monogamous with wife for a long time. Looking back I mostly see the happy times. Could I have done it for her? Yes. Without a doubt. I never cheated. I never would have. But in hindsight I have always been Poly. I practiced being poly in HS with a little triadic friendship I had with Classic and another woman — we had t-shirts with our initials in a triangle. Beginning in college, Wife and I had a string of friends get “too” close — first BlackBelt, then L-Boogie — before we realized what they were providing that lent some additional balance to our lives (hint: it wasn’t sex!)

4) Lastly, there is a fundamental flaw in the question. Love is not a shopping list of qualities. Love is the person who makes you burn your lists. If someone ignites and nurtures that flame in your life, whatever you expected in love is just construct, tear it down and rebuild it with that person. The qualities I point out in each partner are not because I expected them, it’s because I value those qualities through their light and love.

[polystumbles]

Why is it that it seems like most poly people have primary partners?

Caveat: this response is very specific to U.S. cultural elements. 

I’m not sure that that’s a fact. Judging by Tumblr It would also seem that most of the world is asexual (go on with your vocal selves though!) But I see what you mean.

I do think there are a few things at play keeping non-hierarchical poly and solo poly from being (apparently) more common (if not more visible). These items add up to Couple’s Privilege and the idea of a primary partner remaining tightly held even amongst poly-folk. 

“Normal”. Society has normalized coupledom over solo or more tribe or pod setups. (see Against Love by Laura Kipnis.) Secondaries can pass as friends. Secondaries don’t need legal rights. Secondaries don’t have to parent. You can have a secondary partner and still be a church-going, cishet, “normal” couple.  Hierarchical poly preserves much of what America likes, just brings above ground what was once considered cheating (which is a big deal, don’t get me wrong.)

Economics. Cohabitation and coupledom means shared expenses and risks.  Against Love makes the case that its the perfect capitalist consumption unit: big enough to buy big things, small enough to need redundant things (why does everyone need a blender?)

Parenting. We’re a society that wants to hide sex from kids till they are thirty and yet is willing to give a 2 year old a toy gun. We seem to think that kids raised outside of anything other than a two parent (cishet) household are worse off. (I think this is changing.)

Lack of Models. I think there are very few models for non-hierarchical and Solo polyamory. When many people starting off dating, non-monogamy isn’t an option right away. The entry way to poly for many is through forming a couplet, trying to be another person’s everything, and realizing that is impossible. When wife and I went through that, our reaction was at one time hierarchy: us first (though our first reaction was +1 let’s find a triad, which I think is also common). For some people “us first” perfectly valid place to stay. Perhaps they don’t need more.  Perhaps that is all most people need: a primary love, and a little more. Stability and a little variety or a little freedom to grow.

Asymmetry. For some couples, opening up is about one partner not getting their sexual needs met. Most other needs non-sexual relationships could fulfill (e.g. I’d say Bear still feeds Wife’s need for silliness and light hearted conversation even if they ended up not being in a physical relationship.) As a result, you have a mono-poly relationship. The mono side may be using hierarchical poly as a way to make sure their needs are met, if they are not interested in dating.

There are of course exceptions. Z encountered Stranger in a Strange Land as a teen and was drawn to it right away. She wanted to be in a triad (which once again we are not) for a while. When she got dating, she was someone I would describe as practicing solo poly. Now? I don’t know and I don’t really care what she calls it. I just want to be confidently loved and accepted.

I’m an exception too. I need more than variety. I am perfectly capable of growth on my own. I need substance to go with the sweat. I philosophically came to oppose the idea that love should be arbitrarily constrained. I was already practicing that with Bee and Wife. But in that practice, Bee & I were each others secondaries even if we didn’t use the word (I personally find it insulting — like you are a second class citizen) because that’s where our emotions, chemistry, and needs landed us (not what our designations limited us to). Z has put that theory into practice.

P.S. a great Solo Poly blog is solopoly.net

[polystumbles]

My husband has a really high sex drive. Mine is low and seems to waning even more lately. We discussed opening up as a help. He made a "friend" and had sex. It hurt me so bad and I cant say exactly why. My brain sees the logic. My heart doss not.

I’m sorry to hear that you were hurt. I hope you have communicated that to your partner, and I trust that you will work through it. Talk to him about it, and I hope he can be patient through it all, as you are.

Wife and I worked very slowly on this. Between my first non-monogamous pass to my actually having sex with someone else was about 4 years. That’s what we thought was right for us, yet even then it wasn’t easy. It might not have been right. Perhaps ripping the bandaid off would have been better. There is no timeline. 

Wife advises: "Some of the pain may be because of the underlying imbalance of needs. He wants something that you can't provide. We've been taught we should be 100% compatible. But you have to accept that that's not possible. There is nothing wrong with him, nothing wrong with you. What's wrong is ignoring the problem and generating resentment. You will have to work on not letting each other get so drawn into new relationships that you lose sight of your own. New relationships can seem easy when you don't have to live with someone. But know that the other person does not necessarily have all your qualities or want to do what you do."

Had you consented and now find it hard? Did he go ahead before that consent was explicit? You can beat each other (or yourself) up about it. But what’s done is done. What’s left is to work through it, no? Now comes partnership. Now comes commitment. Now comes love in the face of pain. In time you’ll figure what hurts. In time you’ll figure how to heal it. Guess what? In time, Love wins.

[polystumbles]

Hmmm... Your Wife had a hard time at work and was disagreeable and going through hard times and you made it worse for her by choosing that time to bring in Z. For someone so intelligent in his written word, I wonder how it is that you missed the point that she may have really needed you. When you become self-actualization the following will make sense to you. For our loved ones, we sacrifice self to be for them what they need even when they don't have the ability to ask.

First, you’ve got the timeline waaaaay off. I was dating Z months before Wife got her new job. Z and I began dating in March 2013. Wife’s job started in June of 2013. Even after that, the true nature of her boss didn’t become evident for many months. I’d say it was September 2013 before we knew her boss was crazy for sure. I had already fallen in love with Z before we knew. Abuse is often gradual. This job was no different. Do the math. As wife needed me I was there. I’d also say Z was there. Wife and I communicated every step of the way. And before I alerted Z to my feelings, I talked about what was happening with wife — way past where Z and I are now, I asked hard hypotheticals — what if Z got pregnant? what if poly-marriage became legal? What if Z needed financial partnership (a startup, back to school)? If she couldn’t handle it, I’d need to sniff it out then and contain things with Z. Rather she welcomed her. Z was not the partner we had dreamed of, she was something different, someone magical in ways we hadn’t imagined, but human in ways that fantasies don’t explore. Yet she was the right person. From her values, to her intellect, to her caring nature. She was a partner Wife could be proud to share me with. That in turn is tough for Z — at that moment her relationship with me was at a critical juncture in which she didn’t have a say. It was the gray area between being a responsible poly partner and couple’s privilege. But I felt it was a conversation Wife deserved, after it, Z and her would be equally entitled to my love.

It’s a lot to read. But most of the story (from my view) is on this here and in chronological order. There are missing parts from times Z sat and listened to wife’s pain to the negotiations, to how Z helped me take care of the kids while wife visited her best friend for the first time in years, to how wife and Z take care of each other when I’m away on business travel. Some of that isn’t from my view, so it’s missing — but I try and not speak for them. Wife does tell me about it. She is grateful for Z in our (shared) life. Does Z feel the same? I can’t be sure. I don’t think its a fair question to ask her, since there isn’t another option.

Again, there is no victim here. Wife and I are happy, very happy. Z and I are happy, very happy. In relationships you have ups and downs, ebbs and flows. Martyrdom is no way to have a relationship. It breeds resent. Resent is a blank check, when cashed it bankrupts many a relationship. Poly has shown my love to be compounding. Z and Wife have only added to the principal in that account.

If wife is healing, I'd say that's all the vindication I need. I could have also chosen wrong. I do make mistakes. My name is polystumbles. Yet, to assume that I cannot have met Wife’s needs as she hurt, to assume that I don’t know when wife needs my help, well — it’s my turn to make a presumption — you’re an ass. I’m sorry if your “self actualization” hasn’t helped you realize that. Still, I’m more sorry that you still think that love is a zero sum game after reading my blog. Maybe that speaks to my deficiencies a story teller. It's OK to doubt me. I often doubt myself too. It's not OK to be a smug  ass about it -- "when you self-actualization" -- and do so with atrocious grammar nonetheless.

[polystumbles]

Would you even be poly if you initially dated someone who hunkered for you the way you did for them?

Short answer:

Monogamy isn’t a prize. Not in consolation, nor in victory. It is a choice. In many cases it’s the right choice for people, in many other cases it’s the wrong choice. it’s needs and risk tolerance. If you approach monogamy like a prize, you’ll tie your self worth to it, win or lose. That’s a shitty way to live when monogamy involves another person’s needs and risk tolerance -- not how much, or with how much effort, you love someone. 

Love is not a meritocracy. Hard work is no guarantee for love. And monogamy, is not love’s apex. 

Long answer:

Yes I’d still be poly and I have empirical evidence because what else does one call “hunkering down“ than:

Amy:

Literally clean the shit out of my mom’s house

Throw on boots and grab a knife to join the street fight one night when my older brother was in a rumble

Give birth to my two children

Welcome other people into our relationship, our bed, our lives.

To tackle my family’s poverty together

Build two, going on three profitable businesses together.

Accept the growth of my relationship with Z.

Navigate my family in two countries, across three languages

Tackle her family issues, her mental health issues, to be a better partner for me.

Z:

Accepting my commitment to my family

Dating me despite my relationships with Bee and Amy when we met

Giving up control just to spend time with me in that home

Loving past my mother’s bitterness

Attempting to forge a relationship with Amy

Face her fears of illegitimacy and being the “other woman”

Accept me fully for the Bison that I am.

Tackling her anxiety and depression to own her own shit

Working to forge other relationships to meet her own needs, so don’t feel compelled to try and meet them all

To move within minutes of where I live so we could be closer.

I may love a lot. I may have energy, passion, commitment, and attention to detail, but I have not done what they have done for for me. {That was a small selection above.}

Z and Amy have hunkered down for me the way even more than I have done for them. I don’t think there is more either of them could have done to earn monogamy. Could I have asked more of them at any point? No.

Order has nothing to do with it. If I had dated Z first, I would have been arrested not been the person she fell in love with.

As for today, I’m not sure what has happened to Amy. I think her mental health issues have proven unconquerable, and I’ve given up having any responsibility in healing those issues for my own safety. Perhaps the emptiness of achieving her life goals, has left only the vast emptiness of her past, with no tension to hold the chasm closed. But no matter what happens, it won’t be because of a lack of “hunkering down”.

[polystumbles]

I wouldn’t have even known to search for polyamory, or non-monogamy, were necessity not the mother of online research.

Polystumbles

tl;dr version of this ask