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runes-menagerie · 1 year ago

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Analysis of Ascendant Astarion Part 2

WARNING!! This post contains spoilers for Act 3 of Balder's Gate 3. Specifically for one of the possible endings of 'The Pale Elf' companion questline along with the entirety of the Astarion romance plotline since I do reference earlier romance cutscenes.

This analysis focuses on the dialogue trees available during the Ascendant Astarion romance scene that happens the next time you rest after completing the ritual. Given the difficulty of the fight against Cazador and his minions, in addition to the fight with the Gur Tribe as you leave, most players are likely to rest before going on to other quests. That is the timeline I'm assuming for the purposes of how long Astarion has had to process the events outlined in my previous analysis post.

I would also like to preface this by saying that I was not expecting the dialogue trees in this scene to be as complex as they are, Most videos you can find will only show you one or two possible paths but there are actually many possible paths and even a few loops that you could theoretically go around indefinitely.

That said it does all boil down to a very simply choice: continue the romance by letting his turn you or break up with him. I started this project thinking that there were very few ways to accomplish the first and many ways the second could happen. What I found when I actually mapped out the trees was the exact opposite. Discovering this changed my perceptions this scene and I hope that shows in my analysis.

One last thing I'd like to address before getting on with the analysis. While researching the character I found the predominate interpretation of Ascendant Astarion is that he's abusive, condescending and manipulative. While I can certainly see how this came about and I will be including it in my analysis. These two interpretations will largely be my focus but I am sure there are others. This is not any sort of end all be all analysis.

Now, without further ado. On to the analysis!

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(start of romance scene)

"I can't believe you let me do that. Killing all those people. A pleasant surprise."

-- As mentioned above I find it likely that this scene takes place within a few hours of the completion of the ritual. Long enough for the high of victory and Ascension to have worn off but not long enough for him to have fully settled into who he is now and go through all the implications of what he's done. This open dialogue indicates that he might be starting to now and is surprised you helped him. The pleasantly part comes in fact that he likely didn't think the player would go to such lengths for him.

(Possible player responses A1)

I wanted what was best for you.

I wasn't about to release seven thousand hungry vampire spawn into the world.

I don't feel great about it honestly.

I wanted a powerful ally, And now I have one.

-- I won't be saying much about the possible player responses since that isn't the focus of this analysis. I will just say to pay attention to the markers such as A1 and A2 since they show how the trees link together and were the best way I could think of to organize what is more like a web than a tree in this format.

A1 -- Prompt 1 -> A2 "You sweet, sweet thing. I want what's best for you too, of course. And one wicked turn deserves another. So tell me what you desire. What can I do for my dearest pet?"

-- Note that many of the reactions to each set of prompts share dialogue so I will only be analyzing those once unless something about the rest of the prompt changes the interpretation of the common part.

-- This feels similar to his pre-Ascension dialogue in terms of the first few lines. The last two lines however show something is going on in his head. This is where I feel he could be seen as starting to come across as condescending since the use of the name 'pet' is new for him. On the other hand, he does given the player numerous pet names throughout the game and this could simply be a new one. Edit: I was informed that he does use the term pet prior to this as a Spawn as a dialogue option if you visit the brothel. "Sorry pet, I'm not quite comfortable doing this sort of thing just yet." --quote courtesy of @astriel-nya This fact makes me more inclined to think that it is simply a pet name rather than being indicative an abusive mindset.

-- Another thing to consider when interpreting this dialogue is the fact that he's asking what he can do for the player. If we look back at his romance scenes early on then this could be a call back to his "nice, simple plan" of trading his body and affection for the player's protection. If this is in fact a call back then it could indicate he's reverting to past "instinctive" behaviors while figuring out who he is now that he is finally free of Cazador. Not to mention any lingering side effects of the ritual that could be impacting his thinking.

A1 -- Prompt 2 -> A2 "Of course, whatever you need to tell yourself, darling. But make no mistake, I will forever remember what you did for me today. And one wicked turn deserves another. So tell me what you desire. What can I do for my dearest pet?"

-- Here is another example of a line that could be condescending even with the use of the familiar pet name. He seems dismissive of the player's reasoning and attempts to moralize the choice to pay the price of the ritual.

-- Another take is that Astarion has always been rather morally dubious and this isn't the first time he's questioned the player's morality.

-- I find the second line more telling than the first since it seems to be another call back, this time to his lines after you let him feed from you the first time. These connections to the past seem to indicate that he hasn't completely forgotten who he was before the ritual.

A1 -- Prompt 3 -> A2 "Well, what's done is done. And there's simply no point in dwelling on the past, is there? No, you have given me a glorious new future. And one wicked turn deserves another. So tell me what you desire. What can I do for my dearest pet?"

-- As with the last response, this one can also be interpreted as condescending and dismissive. Both of the player and of the past. It could be an indication that he no longer cares as much for the player's opinions and thoughts.

-- However, given just what Astarion's past has contained for the last 200 years, I find it difficult to blame him for wanting to focus on the future now that he can finally see one that isn't more of what he's suffered all those years.

A1 -- Prompt 4 -> A2 "Indeed you do. I am so very, very powerful - all thanks to you. And one wicked turn deserves another. So tell me what you desire. What can I do for my dearest pet?"

-- Given that this response is given to the most cold and calculated of the possible player prompts. It seems logical for him to respond in kind. Now this could be seen as his ego talking and it does fall in line with his speech patterns when talking about himself early game. But that is just the thing. At that point in the game, his goal was to make himself seem useful so you would keep him around. He could be doing the same here, reminding you of just how useful he is so you won't turn on him now that he's changed.

-- In this prompt I believe that common section more strongly supports the second interpretation rather than the first but that is simply my opinion.

(Possible player responses -- A2)

I want to be a vampire like you.

I want you. I want your body.

You can tell me that you've learned something from all this.

I am not your pet.

-- I will admit that when I first encountered this set of player responses, I greatly detested them. Now having mapped out all the dialogue trees, my hatred has lessened but I still don't entirely like the options given to player at this point in the dialogue tree.

-- Also note that this is the point where it becomes less dialogue tree and more dialogue web.

A2 -- Prompt 1 -> A3 "Oh my sweet, there are no vampires like me. And there never will be again. But if you want the gift of eternity, I can give you that. One more bite is all it would take. That's what you want, isn't it? To be mine? Forever?"

-- The first two lines are both a statement of fact since it has been stated in game that no one had ever attempted the Rite of Profane Ascension before Cazador, making Astation the first Vampire Ascendant. Given this fact and how long it took for someone to attempt the ritual it does seem rather unlikely there will ever be another but not impossible.

-- That said, it's also possible that his ego is talking here as well since he is the first to achieve such a thing and he is more powerful than he was, both lore wise and in game mechanics. However, the second line can be taken as more than a simple statement of fact. It could be interpreted as him stating an intention to prevent the ritual from being repeated, either to prevent competitors or to prevent 7000 more souls from being sacrificed again. It could also be an indication of his intent never to turn the player into a true vampire but to keep them a spawn, however since we have no way of knowing if the spawn of the Vampire Ascendant would also become a Vampire Ascendant, this may be a mote point.

-- As for the rest of his words this could either be taken as him trying to manipulate you into becoming his slave and putting yourself under his control. Or it could be him acknowledging the differences in your lifespans and being afraid to lose the player since even if the player is one of the Elf variants they wouldn't live even a fraction of his lifespan. As in most vampire romance stories, this could be seen as gesture of love rather than one intended to enslave.

A2 -- Prompt 2 -> A3 "You've earned it. But don't you want more -- don't you want eternity? One more bite is all it would take? That's what you want, isn't it? To be mine? Forever?"

-- This is in response to the option I dislike the most so I apologize if that influences my analysis. That said I do find it telling how he says that the player has 'earned' the ability to sleep with him. And then he quickly offers to turn the player.

-- I will be honest that I struggle to find an abusive interpretation for this one other than what was mentioned above with the offer to become a vampire being a manipulation tactic to control the player.

-- The interpretation I find more likely in this case is that the offer to turn the player is a distraction from the idea of sex. Which given that in order to get this far in the romance the player would have already agreed to hold off on sex until he was ready, seems plausible.

-- Note that there is another way to get this dialogue but again, it is the player requesting sex, not him offering or asking for it. Now it is possible that with the power boost he gets from Ascension that he feels safe enough to explore sex now since it's possible he could overpower the player or at least escape. It could also be another case of him reverting to his early game thinking. Giving his body so the player will accept being turned and not leave him. Or giving his body as a method of tricking the player into becoming his slave.

-- This also brings to mind the scene where he tells you he doesn't want sex, specifically that if you insist on it he will then break up with you after saying that he didn't know how to tell the player no. I wonder if something similar might be the case here, thus the distraction of offering to turn the player rather than saying no outright.

A2 -- Prompt 3 -> B1 "Truly? What was I supposed to learn from this?"

-- He does have a point here, until I read the possible player responses to this I wasn't fully sure what I would expect him to learn from recent events either. I feel his confusion and defensiveness is justified here.

A2 -- Prompt 4 -> C1 "Oh don't be such a humorless little wretch - It's nothing but a joke."

-- This reaction seems to support the interpretation of the 'pet' name not just being a new way to refer to the player but a test to see if the player would be open to submitting. One that he isn't happy the player rejected.

-- However he does only call you pet the one time in this entire scene regardless of if you call him on it or not. This could mean that he is more reacting to being called out than the fact that you don't accept the name. Or he could simply be deciding not to push his luck with you at this time since his primary goal seems to be getting the player to agree to become a vampire.

(Possible player responses from Prompt 3 -- B1)

I hoped you'd learn to love me.

Not to become Cazador yourself.

That sex and relationships aren't about power over someone else.

-- I thought that the 2nd and 3rd responses would be breakup routes when I was mapping this out and was rather surprised to find I was wrong. This is where my opinion on this scene began to change.

B1 -- bullet 1 -> B3 "Who's to say I don't? I'm willing to share all of this with you. What's that if not love? Of course if that's not enough - if you need something more - perhaps this isn't for you. So. What's it to be, darling? Is this it?"

-- Given Astarion's past, sharing power like this would be a significant gesture for him since he has had all power stripped from him before and had to claw his way up to where he is now. That said, it does indicate that he might be viewing relationships as transactions as he did near the start of the game. The next line both supports this idea and brings it into question depending on the interpretation. It could either be interpreted as a manipulation or as him genuinely asking if he's enough for the player.

-- Lastly he asks what the player wants rather than assuming the relationship is over. Once more this could be a show of caring in order to manipulate the player's emotions. Or it be him giving the player the choice he didn't have. Since let's not forget that he was turned against his will. His unwillingness to forcibly turn the player is rather telling I feel no matter how the rest of this words are interpreted.

B1 -- bullet 2 -> B2 "Don't you ever compare me to him! Never! How dare you stand there and judge me. As if you know the first thing. Your hands are as bloody as mine, darling. Why would you go along with any of this just to pretend you're innocent now?"

-- Even as pissed off at the player as he is here, this still leads to a prompt that gives the option to save the relationship. Given that Spawn Astarion doesn't react this way to mentions of Cazador I find this response rather interesting.

-- One possible interpretation is that Astarion secretly fears that he will become just like Cazador. That he will hurt those around him, especially the player. We've seen in the Love Test earlier in the game that he doesn't like his fears being brought to light which seems to support this interpretation.

-- Another interpretation is that he does actually plan to be like Cazador to some extent, either consciously or unconsciously, and he doesn't want you thinking about that otherwise you might walk away from him before he can make you his spawn.

-- The last few lines seem to be him once more questioning the player's morals while reminding you that he would have never been able to Ascend without someone's help. With this in mind his willingness to keep giving you chances to save the relationship might be an acknowledgement of this fact. He literally owes everything to the player and he knows it.

B1 -- bullet 3 -> B2 "Please, everything is about power. Sex, relationships, violence - They're all just different forms of control. And now you think you can stand there and tell me how to feel? Because - what? Because you care? Your hands are as bloody as mine, darling. Why would you go along with any of this just to pretend you're innocent now?"

-- This seems to support the theory that he's reverting back to his early game thinking in terms of how he views relationships. As stated in the believing, it isn't surprising that he would fall back onto familiar thought patterns while processing and adapting to his new power and freedom.

-- He could be lashing out because he's aware of this fact but he doesn't know how else to handle what's going on in his head. He could also be upset that the player is so easily seeing through his manipulation.

(possible player responses from bullets 2 and 3 above B2)

I wanted you to feel safe.

Because I cared! But maybe now I see how wrong I was!

I did it for you, you piece of shit.

-- Even though all of these responses gain his disapproval, none outright end the romance at this stage. Even the last two don't and I thought they would when I was making this.

B2 -- All prompts "It seems I misjudged you. I thought we might have a future together - even an eternity - But perhaps you're not worthy. So. What's it to be, darling? Is this it?"

-- This is very similar to how he responds to the first prompt in the response list before this one. (B1 -- bullet 1) He asks the player what they was want rather than making a demand or trying to focus it. As mentioned before there is a chance that Ascendant Astarion could overpower the player, especially if this does in fact take place right after the Cazador/Gur fight when everyone it hurt/tired except perhaps him, which would give him the best chance of doing so.

-- One interpretation is that even if his thinking has changed with Ascension, he's still unwilling to put the player through what he was when he was turned. It has to be the player's choice to become his spawn.

-- Another interpretation that is similar to the first but distinctly different is that he wants it to be the player's choice so that they are less likely to scheme against him as he did against Cazador. He doesn't want to create an enemy with the potential to actually harm him one day after all since from reading Vellioth's scroll we know that it is in fact possible for a spawn to kill their master without there being a Mindfalyer tadpole involved.

(Possible player response to all of the above B3)

I hope we can work things out and stay together.

I still care for you, but it can't be like this.

You're a hypocrite, and I don't want to be with you.

I don't want to look at you again. Get out of my camp.

-- Only bullet 1 will continue the romance so that response is the only one that will be analyzed in this post. The breakup responses will be analyzed in a later post.

B3 -- bullet 1 -> A4 "Of course we can. You're the one I want - the one that I love. And you could be so much more, if you want it. One little bite and you could be mine forever. My dark consort. My right hand. My most beloved spawn."

-- The fact that he is still willing to work things out with the player could be interpreted as him still hoping to manipulate and control the player. Or we could be seeing some of his genuine emotions beneath the act he's trying to put on as he falls back into his old thought patterns. This feels like something he would have said pre-Ascension which may indicate that he hasn't completely changed but it merely reverting back to old behaviors as stated before and this is him breaking from that due to thinking you might actually leave him.

-- The last set of lines are repeated a great deal in the A3 responses so I will analyze there since it feels like it makes more sense.

(Posssible player responses C1)

It doesn't feel like a joke. It feels like you mean it.

You haven't learned anything have you?

All right. But if your offer is still open, I want to be a vampire. Just like you.

Then stop joking around and let's sleep together.

-- This is part of the 'pet' comment branch, if that helps with navigation.

C1 -- Prompt 1 -> A3 "Life's a joke, dear, but now we're the ones laughing. But if you want the gift of eternity, I can give you that. One more bite is all it would take. That's what you want, isn't it? To be mine? Forever?"

-- This feels both like him backtracking but also makes me think of when he's trying to justify him drinking the blood of your enemies right after revealing what he is to the player early game. I think the reason for that is in both situations he trying to laugh off a rather serious matter.

-- That aside he does seem to be dismissing the player's feelings on the matter. And yet he doesn't use the word 'pet again'. Even during the sex scene when a perfect chance for it comes up.

-- This dialogue branch seems to be the one with the most support for the interpretation of Ascendant Astarion as abusive, condescending, and manipulative. I don't think it should be dismissed because of that but I do think it should be noted that it is only one possible dialogue branch and that is is possible to go through the scene without ever encountering any of these responses.

C1 -- Prompt 2 -> A2 Prompt 3

C1 -- Prompt 3 -> A2 Prompt 1

C1 -- Prompt 4 -> A2 Prompt 2

-- The fact that all other prompt responses lead back to the second set of choices feels rather significant to me as well. This could support the interpretation that there is a darker motive behind all of his dialogue in this scene. Or it could indicate that he's simply testing to see where the line is with the player now that he's changed so much. It's also possible that the ritual changed his thinking just as he states it has changed his blood in the post Ascension scene.

(Possible player responses A3)

Yes, that's all I want.

So what would I be? A vampire? Or your spawn?

What if I don't want forever?

I wanted a good time, that's all.

I wanted you to be free. It seems you never will be.

-- All the dialogue options above will eventually lead here unless a breakup option is chosen. Of these, only the last one will lead to a breakup option.

A3 -- Prompt 1 -> A5 "Then it's everything you shall receive. I will miss this warm flesh mind you. Shall we have one last night together before you join me in immortality? One for the road, so to speak."

-- Here he is the one offering sex, however this line can come after the player has asked for it or if the player I was going to analyze the implications of each but I found as I was writing it that there really isn't much of a difference other than whether or not he's actually interested in sex or merely doing it for the player's benefit.

-- This offer could be him resigning himself to going through with it as the price of getting to keep the player. He could also be ready for sex and the player just happened to ask for it before he could offer, if that route was taken. It could also be a manipulation, a way to sweeten the deal to ensure that the player goes through with the turning. It could also be exactly as he said, that he'll miss the player's warmth and wants to feel it one more time before it's gone forever.

-- To sum up. This could be a manipulation. It could be fondness for the player prompting him to spend one more night with you.

A3 -- Prompt 2 -> A4 "You wouldn't be just some spawn -- you're far more than that to me. My dark consort. My right hand. My most beloved spawn."

-- This is in response to a very valid question from the player. The answer is rather poetic, as many of his early game words are when he's trying to seduce the play.

-- With that thought in mind he could be trying to manipulate and seduce the player into giving in to him and becoming his spawn so he has complete power over you.

-- He could also be honestly trying to reassure the player that even as his spawn, he won't abuse you but will treat you as a partner. Not quite an equal perhaps but not a victim either.

A3 -- Prompt 3 -> A4 "What's not to want? We could be together for all time. My dark consort. My right hand. My most beloved spawn."

-- Given his own lack of choice in becoming a vampire and just how many people in the game seem to be seeking ways to extend their own lifespans, it's really not a surprise why he would question why you don't want to live longer.

-- He could also be questioning if he's not enough for you even now that he's become the Vampire Ascendant. At the same time this could be another attempt at manipulation.

A3 -- Prompt 4 -> A3 "What do you mean? Think of the things I can offer you! You're not going to say no to that, surely?

-- I was surprised this one didn't lead straight to a breakup but it doesn't. Which I feel reinforces the interpretation that regardless of his reasoning, he does want to keep you in his life.

-- But to explore that reasoning, one way this response can be interpreted is him asking if he is not enough for you. If everything he has to offer you now and everything he is, isn't enough.

-- In the same vein, he could be asking if you're really going to turn down all the power that he strove so hard to get. This would explain why he seems so offended by the idea that you would turn him down.

A3 -- Prompt 5 -> B2 All prompts (minus 1 aka breakup route)

-- This is a break up route and as such will be analyzed in another post. But I do think it's significant that it took this long to get to another break up route in comparison to how many ways there are to continue the romance.

(possible player responses A4)

Yes, that's all I want.

Spawn? I want to be a true vampire.

A beloved slave is still a slave.

After everything you went through with Cazador, you're going to make me a spawn?

-- No really anything to say about this set of prompts other than that Astarion is surprisingly patient considering all the questions you could be asking him. Granted they are rather reasonable and understandable questions given the situation.

A4 -- Prompt 1 -> A3 Prompt 1

A4 -- Prompt 2 -> A3 Prompt 2

-- Unsurprisingly these two link back up to other parts of the dialogue tree.

A4 -- Prompt 3 -> D1 "Oh don't be like that, I'd never want to control you. I love you. That's what you've been waiting to hear, isn't it? That's what you want. We could be together for eternity, ruling this world side by side. We could have it all."

-- The first part of this is pretty straight forwards, he's either lying or he's not. On one hand he knows what's like to be a spawn, to be controlled, to have his body obey against his will. It seems unlikely he would inflict that on someone he cares about and the fact is that within the game he doesn't actually try unless you count him forbidding you from dying at one point. On the other hand, if his feeling for the player have changed then he might be lying and simply had no need to control you during the gameplay. Or he was subtle enough about it that you don't notice it.

-- As for his confession of love, the phrasing of it is closer to that of his first confession when he's telling you all his favorite lines. This could be interpreted as a sign his feelings for the player have changed. It could also be interpreted as him being more theatrical about it simply because, as stated previously, he's defaulted back to familiar speech patterns.

-- Once more he's making an offer to the player, to get them to agree to be his spawn. These continued offers could be him trying to sweeten or remind you of the deal being offered in order to tempt you into giving in to him. Or they could be him expressing his hopes. He hopes for a future with you, for an eternity of you by his side.

-- The ruling comment is a potential red flag but given that he has made comments like that the entire game I don't feel it's out of character or sign that his thinking has changed. He doesn't voice any particular plans for it in this scene however.

A4 -- Prompt 4 -> D1 "Oh that was completely different, I'd never hurt you. I love you. That's what you've been waiting to hear, isn't it? That's what you want. We could be together for eternity, ruling this world side by side. We could have it all."

-- This one is very similar to the previous one and can be interpreted with the same thought processes in my opinion. That said, I do find the difference in wording between the two rather interesting. In the previous one he claims he doesn't want to control you and in this one that he doesn't want to hurt you. This difference is rather curious.

-- It could be that he doesn't think of controlling the player as hurting you as long as he doesn't actually give you a command that would hurt you or cause you to get hurt. Or the opposite could be true and he does think controlling the player would hurt you. Either interpretation has interesting connotations as does this difference in phrasing.

(Possible player responses D1)

That does sound appealing...

Sounds like you'd have it all.

No, this isn't what I want.

-- Another chance to break up here. As with the others, the player has to voice a direct refusal for him to accept it. On one hand that could be seen as a red flag and him not taking no for an answer. On the other hand, with the more ambiguous responses he doesn't assume consent or refusal but asks for clarification of the player's desires. How he reacts to being rejected with be covered in another post as stated previously but I think it's significant to note that he didn't forcibly turn the player upon rejection.

D1 -- bullet 1 -> A5 "I knew you'd come around. Shall we have one last night together before you join me in immortality? One for the road, so to speak."

-- The second part of this has been covered already. As for the first part. This could be interpreted as being rather condescending with him being confident that he could manipulate you into giving into him. It could also be interpreted as him simply knowing the player well and being confident that if he was patient and laid everything out that you would agree to stay with him. It could also be a false show of confidence, a show he often puts on throughout the game with his vulnerable side only coming out sometimes.

D1 -- bullet 2 -> D1 "I already have everything. Except you by my side. Are you ready to join me? To accept this immortal gift?"

-- He's not wrong here. He has everything he's stated he wanted from the beginning. Cazador is dead and Astarion has the power to theoretically do whatever he wants to. The fact that he doesn't assume he has you, that he's doing all this to get your consent when he could theoretically force you feels significant. As does the fact that he wants you by his side, rather than going his own way as he likely intended before his 'nice, simple plan fell apart.'

D1 -- bullet 3 -> B2 All prompts (minus 1 aka breakup route)

-- A clear break up route unsurprisingly.

(possible player responses A5)

Please, yes.

We shall not. I just need you to bite me.

Huh. I forgot I'd be cold to the touch once I changed...

-- No breakup option at this point but that's not terribly surprising.

A5 -- Prompt 1 -> Sex scene "Then come with me, my love, and live your final night."

-- This leads directly to the sex scene you can get from this interaction, which has it's own analysis. As for this response, he's gotten what he wants. Your consent. But even so he's willing to draw out turning you by having sex first either as part of the deal or because he wants to be with you one last time while you're still technically alive.

A5 -- Prompt 2 -> Post sex scene "Impatient are we? Well who am I to deny you?

-- As expected, this skips the sex scene and goes straight to the turning scene. He doesn't fight this which could mean he wasn't ready and or interested in sex. Or it could mean that he's placing the player's wishes ahead of his own.

A5 -- Prompt 3 -> E1 "Not having second thoughts, are we?"

-- Once more checking for consent from the player when you voice would could be seen as doubts. Whether he's being manipulative or honest during this entire conversation tree, your consent clearly matters to him when it comes to being turned.

(Possible player responses E1)

No, let's do this.

I don't want this after all.

-- A final check for consent. You can either give it or break up with him.

E1 -- bullet 1 -> A5 Prompt 1

E1 -- bullet 2 -> B2 All prompts (minus 1 aka breakup route)

-- Nothing new to say here.

(sex scene)

-- I'm not going to recap the sex scene here. There are plenty of videos of it out there. That said, I do find the parallels between this sex scene and the first one you get with him rather interesting. In both scenes the focus seems to be on the player, this more clear in this scene since it is longer but even in the first one he talks about what the player wants and only vaguely about his own desires. Now this could be do to his history with seducing for Cazador. But I find it interesting that the same is true of this scene.

-- This could be because he's acting on instinct as stated previously. He could also be trying to make the player's last night alive particularly good. It's also possible given his history that he doesn't remember how to take pleasure for himself and so it just doing what he knows. It could also be about control, in this case controlling how much pleasure the player feels during this scene.

(Post sex scene)

"On your knees, darling."

-- Here we have another example of a response that could be read as condescending and abusive. Another interpretation of it is the ritual of it. We're not told very much about vampire culture by the game even we find documents that talk about various rituals. It's possible that there's a significance here we're ignorant of. It's also possible he's testing to see if you'll obey him if he asks for something like when you aren't forced to obey him.

(Possible player responses A6)

Kneel.

(Wis check) Explore his mind - see what he really thinks about you.

No.

Kick him in the balls.

-- The last one is obviously a break up prompt but the third one isn't.

A6 -- Prompt 1 -> A7 "Tonight, I shall drink every drop of your blood. Own your body, kill your mind. It will only hurt a bit, the pleasure will be far greater than the pain."

-- Technically these are statements of fact. He has to drain you to turn you. It's also true that he will own your body once the player is his spawn since if he did give a command then your body would follow it whether you wanted to or not. Technically your mind would die when he drains you since you would be dead then undead.

-- As for the pleasure being greater than the pain. This could be a lie to comfort or manipulate the player into not fighting him at this point. He could also be telling the truth, he only gives a brief description of how he was turned so we don't know how it actually feels. Edit: I couldn't accurately remember how he described being turned but @astriel-nya once more provided me with a quote. "I remember how it hurt when I turned to a vampire. My body writhed and warped while I was utterly helpless, the grip of death owned my heart as it beat its last." This could support either side but given the narration of the turning scene and that of the first time he bites the player, I find it likely that he at least hopes that his words will be true for the player.

A6 -- Prompt 2 ->A6 Successful check *He will always see you as degrading yourself if you continue to be with him. But perhaps you wish to degrade yourself. And he knows it.* Failed check "Bad boy/girl." or "Tut tut. Very bad."

-- It's very easy to interpret the successful check dialogue as confirmation that Astarion has become or will become abusive towards the player. Just as easy is a more kinky interpretation since it would not at all surprise me if he were interested in such games as long as he wasn't the one being degraded.

-- There is another interpretation however. Rather than degrading as in being put down, the player is lowering themselves by staying with Astarion when they could do better. With him knowing you want this even though there are others who are more worthy of you.

-- For the failed check, I can't entirely blame him for scolding you for trying to read his mind without permission. That said the phrasing is rather condescending and while he doesn't use 'pet' the words do have similar connotations. On the other hand he could simply be being playful and reassuring you that he isn't mad you trying to read his mind.

A6 -- Prompt 3 -> F1 "Yes."

-- Here he rejects the player setting a boundary by refusing to kneel. This could be interpreted as a red flag for certain. This is also one of the few times he doesn't go along with the player's wishes which implies there's something significant about you agreeing to kneel. Despite his words he doesn't force the player to kneel, indicating he does still care about consent.

A6 -- Prompt 4 -> Breakup route + leaves party "Argh! How DARE you! To hells with you, I'm done. I hope you rot."

-- Not terribly surprising that kicking him leads to a break up. I was rather shocked that he left the party however since he doesn't with the other break up options unless you actually kick him out. I can't exactly blame him however.

(Possible player responses F1)

No.

Give in and kneel.

F1 -- bullet 1 -> Breakup route "You're missing the chance of a lifetime. You'll never have another like me. I won't take me until the end of time to find another like you."

-- The fact that he breaks up with you if you continue to refuse to kneel supports the idea that there is something significant about you consenting to kneel before he turns you. It could simply be his own desires and ego. Or it could be something required for the process. it could also be him needing to be in a position of certain control since it wouldn't surprise me if turning the player is mildly triggering for him given his own experience being turned.

F1 -- bullet 2 -> A6 prompt 1

-- Nothing new to add here since kneeling is required to continue the scene.

(Possible player responses A7)

Be gentle... if you can.

Oh come on. Let it hurt.

Both lead to "You have given me everything. Thank you."

-- Whichever option you choose he obeys. If you ask for gentle then he gives you kisses and treats you gently. If you ask for it to hurt then he grabs your neck and is rough with you. The fact that he does listen can be interpreted as him caring about your wishes to some extent or at least he wants you to think he still does.

(turning scene)

-- Again, not giving the play by play since there are plenty of videos.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Final analysis

Having gone through this entire thing I found that there was evidence within the dialogue to support the abusive interpretations of Ascendant Astarion and I found evidence to support a non-abusive interpretation. I believe both are equally valid, especially given the fact that this event happens so close to the end game, even if done as soon as possible, so we don't really get to see more than a few scenes to show us who he becomes post Ascension.

I do feel that the fact that the player has to explicitly tell him 'no' to end the romance and that he asks for a clear yes or no in response to all of the more ambiguous prompts to be rather significant. It doesn't easily fit with an abusive interpretation and yet it's also something that many players won't realize unless they go through all the dialogue options with save scumming as I did. Especially since when I was making this post I couldn't find any videos that actually went through all the possible dialogue trees. I found some that got most of them but no complete ones and none that really conveyed how complex the dialogue trees are.

I feel that this is part of why the abusive interpretation is so prevalent. It's the one that comes across the most easily on a casual playthrough. Diving deep into the dialogue however reveals that it isn't the only possible interpretation since aside from a few obvious red flags most of it is more ambiguous.

And so, to sum up my non-abusive interpretation. I believe that after the trauma of dealing not only with being in Cazador's palace - a place that is no doubt triggering for him - then being trapped in the ritual not knowing if he would make it, then fighting Cazador, and finally Ascending, that he would largely be running on instinct once the high of victory and Ascending as worn off. We see evidence for this in how worn out he is if you choose not to Ascend him since it's reasonable to assume that Ascendant Astarion would be just as tired once the high wears off. In this more instinctive mindset he seeks to secure the player's loyalty just as he did in the early stages of the game. To that end he makes the offer to turn the player and will even agree to sex if the player asks and offer it if they don't. He wants the player by his side so he's patient with all the questions the player might ask and checks to make sure he's understanding the player's wishes if something is too ambiguous. If the time comes for sex then his focus is on the player, both because it's what his instincts are telling him and because he wants this last night to be enjoyable for the player. Finally when it comes time to turn the player he makes his only demand, that they kneel. There could be ritual reasons for this, or he could simply need to be in a position of clear control to keep the memories of his own turning at bay. Regardless of reason, this is important to him.

Final thoughts.

While I do find the abusive interpretation Ascendant Astarion interesting, I personally find the non-abusive interpretation more intriguing from a role-play and psychology standpoint. That said, I'm sure there are other interpretations out there that are just as valid. This is simply my personal take on things.

If I missed anything or if you want to talk about any part of this then be sure to let me know. Hate will be laughed at but I'd love to have a discussion about all of this and hear other veiwpoints.

#ooc #astarion muse #bg3 spoilers #headcanon #character analysis #ascendant astarion #astarion headcanon

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theonceoverthinker · 1 year ago

Text

Summary: When Luigi and Bowser find themselves stranded together in the Lost Kingdom after a turbulent windstorm sends them flying off Bowser’s airship, a busted up Odyssey becomes their unlikeliest of saviors. Now reluctant traveling companions, doomed to remain marooned without the other’s help, the two gather power moons and embark on a globe-trotting adventure home. However, as they fly and hunt for moons together, encountering and overcoming any and all conflicts in their way, their reservations about each other wither away while a fondness forged through their travels grows into something neither of them ever thought was possible. 1-1, 1-2, 1-3, 1-4, 1-5, 1-6, 1-7, 1-8, 1-9, WZ 1-1, 1-10, BS1-1, WZ 1-2, 1-11, 1-12, 2-1, 2-2, 2-3, 2-4, 2-5, WZ 2-1, 2-6, BS 2-1, 2-7, 2-8, 2-9, 2-10, 2-11, BS 2-2, 2-12, 2-13, 2-14, 2-15, 2-16, 2-17, 2-18, 2-19, BS 2-3, 2-20, 2-21, WZ 2-2, BS 2-4,WZ 2-3, 2-22, 2-23, BS 2-5, 2-24, 2.5-1, 2.5-2, 2.5-3, BS 2.5-1, 2.5-4, 2.5-5,

()()()()

WARP ZONE 2.5-1

Mario paces when he’s nervous.

It’s not a fact that’s widely known about him – he’s not one to get worried or panicked and even less one to show as much off, so only those he’s closest to ever see it happen in the first place.

To Peach’s understanding, the only two in this realm that have witnessed the phenomenon of Mario pacing are herself and Luigi.

The sight, while cute in some contexts, is as far from cute as it can possibly get here.

These past few days have been difficult, to say the least.

It’s just been the two of them flying.

Mario’s scared for his brother.

Peach is scared for not only him, but Mario as well.

He’s a wreck.

That’s not her opinion; it’s something she knows to be true.

If a spring in one’s step is supposed to be a sign of happiness, then Mario’s steps are put-upon by concrete.

He’s not stomping, but the weight of his movements ascends beyond a tangibility of sound; the meaning of that weight is carried by the near constant state of closed eyes, the solemn quietness throughout his person, and the clenched hat in his hands instead of on his head that he keeps rubbing as if it could at any moment summon a genie who could end their suffering.

What a cruel march to witness.

What a crueler march it must be to walk.

Peach can tell that Mario’s pacing seems to be all he can do to avoid…something.

She doesn’t know what that would be, whether lashing out or wailing out or passing out, but she knows Mario – always the hero, always one to keep his composure intact for the sake of not upsetting others – wants to avoid any risk of doing any of those.

It’s not like there’s much more he can do, Peach recognizes. They still have some time to go before they reach the Cap Kingdom.

Peach wonders if her suggestion to go there for help was the correct one. She doesn’t regret opting for reinforcements, and Cappy and Tiara will no doubt be indispensable members of their rescue force once they’re recruited, but the Cap Kingdom is nonetheless far from Bowser’s castle.

Perhaps they should have considered coordinating a rescue with the Koopa Kingdom? It’s not as if such cooperation has never happened before, and a two-way radio that connects to the kingdom offers that possibility.

However, given the Koopa Kingdom’s preferred role for her as a captive in the castle and Mario’s as a captive in the dungeon – not to mention the kingdom’s anxieties over the disappearance of their leader – getting in further touch with Bowser’s minions, especially after escaping on a stolen airship, could just as likely put rods on their backs as it would grant them allies.

Right now, a gamble of time and trouble like that just isn’t worth it.

So, to the Cap Kingdom they go, and to Mario’s pacing he goes.

It’s…it’s tough.

Peach doesn’t know how to be there for Mario.

Does anyone?

Luigi, probably, but it’s his absence that’s the sole contributor to this bout of pacing.

In the face of such a…not a loss, but an absence, what can she possibly do to help Mario?

Her first instinct is to take a more leadership-based approach. It often works at the very least in getting Mario’s attention.

Besides, one doesn’t rule a kingdom without being able to lead others through a crisis.

But the question comes up: Does Mario really need a leader right now?

To some extent, she can tell that he does. Mario is more lost than she has ever seen him before. Peach can certainly relate. Kidnappings aside, she’s gotten lost in more senses than one a time or two herself.

Like she often does when she’s in that situation, Mario probably wants to be found.

…Well, he likely wants to find more than be found, but bereft of that ability to find, being found would probably be as close to his desire as he can get for now.

Wouldn’t a leader’s guidance naturally do the trick here – help him feel found through another spot of reinforced determination or an attempt to create a search plan for Luigi once Cappy and Tiara are by their side?

…

To be honest, she’s not sure.

Ughh.

Now she feels lost.

It shouldn’t do for a princess to feel lost when others need her help!

That should be even more the case with Mario, the man who has come through for her time and time and time again.

She wants to be here for him, not just in the sense of sharing their present space aboard this ship, but offering her heart as an open place for him.

It's not like she doesn’t know that he knows that, but she wants to do better by him!

Is it selfish of her?

She’s not sure.

Peach is starting to wonder if her mind is pacing the same way Mario’s feet are.

It’s frustrating – incredibly frustrating.

…Still, it’s something to do, isn’t it?

Hmmm.

Maybe Mario has the right idea with his pacing.

…

Hmmmm…

Peach calls Mario’s name softly. Mario stops his pacing, though she can tell that the energy that had him pacing in the first place is still very much there, and not about to forsake itself any time soon.

Perhaps there’s merit to that.

It’s a sentiment that catches fire in her mind like grass under a magnifying glass.

Maybe if Mario can’t feel found…he can at least feel comfort in the fact that he’s not lost alone.

Peach walks up to Mario. Mario seems at a loss for a way to respond to her, his eyes open, but so unsure, so vulnerable and tired and sad.

She wants to take him in for a hug.

She’s certain that soon enough, she will.

However, for the time being, there’s something else that might suit their needs better.

Instead, offering a silk-gloved hand and a sad smile, Peach gently asks him if she can join him.

A dull light – a dimmer switch just the slightest bit on – comes through Mario’s expression.

Warmth is no stranger to her hero’s essence, but right now, even as faint as it is, its return lifts Peach’s heart like an air balloon that’s burner is aflame.

Mario takes her hand, and the two of them pace together.

#mario #peach #mareach #super mario bros #super mario

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