#anyway guys love me a shakespearean tragedy

[wolfienation]

why the fuck am i only now drawing the parallels between rhaenyra/hamlet and alicent/ophelia.

hamlet, the classic example of a tragic hero who is obsessed with the death of his father which makes him make bad decisions and makes him indecisive, who is rash and impulsive

and ophelia, caught in a web of men who cut down on her agency, who have had men telling her what do from the beginning of the play, whose innocence is lost through no fault of her own, who spirals through grief and madness

hamlet and ophelia, who are romantically involved before the start of the play and then ripped apart from each other due to circumstances out of their control.

[sunsetsover]

i've decided i'm leaning into the tragedy with this show. i want everyone heartbroken and devastated. i want fadel and bison butting heads because fadel's so overbearing and it's ruining bison's life, while fadel is just doing everything he can to protect him and why can't he just understand. i want style and kant falling out bc kant didn't tell him the truth about who fadel was, and style is just so angry at kant for getting him into this mess because they're supposed to be best friends, and yet what kind of friend would just let him fall for fadel when he always knew this was going to be the outcome.

i want fadel having to live knowing his first love died because of him, because of who he is, who is family is. i want him falling for style anyway. i want christ tightening the screws on kant to the point where he becomes even more desperate and reckless trying to give him what he wants, even though it's getting harder and harder to live with the guilt of what he's doing, not realising keeping himself out of prison is useless if he gets himself killed first. i want him falling for bison despite it all. i want bison and fadel finding out that all those people they killed? yeah, they weren't really bad guys after all, they were just people getting in the way of their mother's business. i want lilly, upon finding out bison's put her whole operation at risk, showing her true colours and revealing she never really cared for bison and fadel at all, she just needed staff that were malleable, and who is more malleable than a child?

i want bison self destructing, having to reconcile with the fact that fadel had been right all along, and now they've got nothing and no one left, and both of their lives are ruined and it's all his fault. because how could he be so stupid as to think kant actually wanted him for real. i want kant so gut wrenchingly desperate for bison to just hear him out because he does, he does want him for real, he just had to protect his baby brother, but realising all of it meant nothing when bison has a gun pointed at his head and he's telling him to jump overboard. i want him to have to jump knowing babe is going to end up alone after all. i want fadel losing another lover because he will always, always chose his brother. i want him to have to grapple with that choice, knowing it'd probably be the smart thing to kill style but knowing full well how it'll eat him alive if he does. etc etc yknow. like give me a shakespearean tragedy but like. everyone still gets a happy ending <3

[opheliawillowbrook]

The day has finally come!!!!

Seriously, y’ll don’t know how happy I am to have finally finished this mammoth of a fic. Writing it has been a major priority for the last three years; I am so excited to finally bring it to a close. And even more so that I’ve actually finished it. So many of my story ideas never reach even a modicum of this point, so the fact we are here and the final chapter is up is a huge deal.

This story, in particular, will always have a huge piece of my creative heart. I’ve wanted to do a Bat-family telling of Hamlet for years, but it never quite fell into place until I 2020 when Damirae became cannon and suddenly all the dynamics fell into place. This story had been both a blessing and a welcome challenge for me. I’ve grown so much as a writer and I just wanna thank all of you who have steadfast on this ride with me. I know there have been aspects of this story that are hard, but Hamlet is Shakespeare’s greatest tragedy and I would be less of a writer if I did not honor that.

Anyway, I want to thank Jen and Vi for helping beta and help me wade through different story ideas. I definitely couldn’t have gotten here without you guys. And thank you to all that give constructive feedback over the years. Your comments, both good and bad, are very much appreciated. Don’t spare them now.

I’m looking forward to focusing on some fresh story ideas. Especially Taming the Demon, since it brings a new Shakespearean flare to our birds.

Enjoy the final act 😜❤️

With Love —Ophelia

[letoscrawls]

How would you rate each version of Duncan from the Dune series and of his love/shipping interests whom do you think he had the best and worst compatibility/chemistry with?

Oh i love you for this question because i've been making silly little rankings in my head for YEARS and you just gave me a reason to unleash them in the wild

So, when it comes to Duncan i think the first thing you gotta take in mind is that his original version had a thing for lady jessica (love or whatever), and it's implied in some of his other relationships that she's always there in the back of his mind somehow.

Duncan and Alia: okay let's start with the one that irks me the most. Alia is my daughter, my beloved, my everything and i hate that she had to be overshadowed by her mother even during her marriage. but it's not jessica's fault, it's stupid duncan that saw jessica in alia, and someone even told him at some point. i don't remember who, i think it was jessica herself??? also you're a psychic living computer whatever HOW can you not see that your wife is being possessed by an evil presence. GOD. i'm obsessed with the tragedy of alia and i loved those scenes when duncan realized she was gone and he started crying ugh. chef kiss. very shakespearean if you will, but yeah Alia deserved a better companion so i'd rate this a 4/10 at best. four points for the tragedy and nothing more

Duncan and Hwi: 0/10. -1183948/10. this is the worst. not even tragedy can save this mess of a ship. hell it wasn't even a ship it was just wrong. poor hwi was paired with the worst men ever and then died??? wtf!! that was terrible for women in general. Not to mention god-emperor duncan is the worst duncan of them all i hate him so much you have no idea. he was a sexist homophobic dumb piece of shit and i hate that he survived and probably died peacefully with siona. also something tells me his encounter with hwi wasn't very consensual you know? maybe the way it was written was ambiguous, but i got the feeling she wasn't really sure of it and it did nothing for the plot, it made no sense. just a bad vibe in general

Duncan and Siona: meh, we don't see much of them, we just know eventually they got together and had a lot of babies and saved the atreides. i've always felt like siona was a half written character, we saw her in the beginning and she's a fearless rebel with a mind of her own, but then in the end she succumbs to the insanity of leto II's grand scheme of things and she seems more like a puppet in his hands. i don't know i'd rate this a 3/10 just because we don't see much and i think they were forced by the events and nothing more. P.S: i would have to look on the dune encyclopedia for more details, maybe they actually liked eachother like ghani and farad'n but i'm not sure

Duncan and that Jessica pseudo clone: they are mentioned briefly in god-emperor i think and it proves once again that this man had un unhealthy obsession for jessica (an assumption based on the fact i don't like him and jessica didn't either. stay with me you know i'm right). but yeah they were happy i guess??? i'm sure if some guy resembling duke leto showed up that jessica lookalike would have dropped duncan's ass in one millisecond though. 6/10

Duncan and Murbella: oh we really are in it aren't we. now THIS is a fucked up relationship. they get a higher score because she's as fucked up as him, and i appreciate equality. But hell duncan and murbella are insanity at the highest level. She imprinted on him when he was a teen and he reverse imprinted on her and they got stuck in a weird sexual curse???? peak madness i just. i don't even know what to say, if i didn't read god-emperor before heretics i would have said this is the most insane thing frank herbert did in these books. but anyway, we actually get to see a little more of their relationship (or maybe situationship, i don't even know what to call that thing they had) in chapterhouse, they are addicted to eachother and made a ton of babies for the bene gesserit. i would say there's tragedy in them as well and even though i know they dynamics that got them stuck together is not healthy and ok and they are by far the weirdest pairing in the entire six books, i'll be honest i was saddened when murbella eventually choose the bene gesserit over him. the scene when she's going through the ritual to become a bg and he's desperate to lose her might have moved something in me. idk. i give them a pass because they are fictional and weird, but overall they are a solid 8/10 to me. and i appreciate the fact that duncan was finally able to have feelings for someone who didn't have 95% of lady jessica's genotype

Duncan and Sheeana: meh. they were meant to be according to the bene gesserit plan, and they did seem to have some sort of bond in chapterhouse. but i don't know, i feel like they were two kids manipulated by the bene gesserit in different ways, and nothing more. But since the saga is incomplete, i'm sure the final book was supposed to explore their dynamic as well. i would say 5.5/10 for the potential (sheeana was super cool on her own and i like to think they could have joined forces to take down the bene gesserit and fall in love while they were at that. but it's all in my head so idk.)

i'm at the end of this long ask and i realized you asked me to rate Duncans and not his relationships. oh well (i had a drawing planned for that years ago). my apologies

Original Duncan: 10/10. bestest boy. gone too soon. he was one respectful king

Messiah Duncan: you know what despite everything I DO LIKE THIS DUNCAN. 9/10 bc he has cool metal eyes and he's very similar to the original Duncan in a lot of ways. should have treated alia better though.

God-Emperor Duncan: get this fucker out of my sight. 0/10.

Heretics baby Duncan: just a baby. an innocent soul. my son. you deserved to live a happy life with your adoptive dad Miles. 8.5/10

Chapterhouse Duncan: a pathetic loser trapped in a toxic situationship with a computer inside his head. he did try his best let's be honest. also a skinny legend. 8/10

[scholarmoons-studyblr]

07.10.2024 - monday

things i did today:

well. last post i said i would do coding. it has been one month and one day. i have not yet started (it's 8:16pm rn but i do have plans to start today) i am actually very angry coding is due on my birthday

english notes !! shakespearean tragedies yessir.

i also completed like 5 pages of my english booklet while watching heartstopper which is cool because i love english

actually practiced my piano pieces + my sister asked me to play peppa pig's theme song and i did manage to figure it out by myself in the span of like 5 minutes

did the rough draft of my science report

🥥☁️🌙🎧 ‧˚₊• ┈ ┈ ┈ ┈ ��୧ ┈ ┈ ┈ ┈ •‧₊˚⊹ 🎧🌙☁️🥥

things i will do tomorrow:

MY CODING !!! I WILL GRIND

draw the graph for my science report !!

as well as finish the bibliography + go over it so i can print and submit it since it's due end of the week (thursday)

i do want to go over my science topic for this term so there's that

my english booklet !! i am halfway there but there is a lot to write

french homework 😋

🥥☁️🌙🎧 ‧˚₊• ┈ ┈ ┈ ┈ ୨୧ ┈ ┈ ┈ ┈ •‧₊˚⊹ 🎧🌙☁️🥥

things i did for me today:

ummm i listened to music in class !! because i had no friends they're all away :( i honestly have not done much but i did come home and just doom scroll for an hour. had cramps for the whole day but its ok i pushed through !! what can i say i did read some of my book that i'm reading on my phone (page 756/958) so i'm hoping to finish it tonight. i'm going to watch 2 youtube videos that i have pinned on my browser before i go to bed

hello hello !! i'm back at school after holidays so i'll try start posting more consistently because it's october and um. yeah. its october happy autumn/fall for everyone in the northern hemisphere i wish i was there rn i'm so over summer uniform where have my trackies gone??? sorry if this is also a long post i'm yapping a bit today oh today in english this guy was like yo we don't have paper to write notes. but. *then proceeds to increase in volume* miss, sarah here has very kindly volunteered to give us paper because she's not stingy! and i was like oh... then i looked in my notebook and only had 1 blank page which i did give to them, however there were 4 people on the table. sharing 1 piece of paper. lesson learned i came home and switched notebooks. anyway thank u for listening to my mini rant !!

okay one more thing before i post this but SEASON 2 OF ARCANE COMES OUT NOV 9 I'M SO HYPED

sweet dreams xoxo- sarah

[chromegnomes]

I'm gonna delete this post later, but thought I'd put out a general Last Call in case any of my followers/mutuals wanted to join the beta reader group for my WIP series The Skeleton King over in the Wyngspan Labs discord.

Here's a temporary link to the PDF of the teaser I sent the existing group; it's about 6500 words long, and is a pretty good sample of what the rest will be like.

If you're interested, I'll put the Q&A I wrote for the beta readers below a Read More here, so you can know what you'd be getting into:

WHAT IS SKELETON KING?

Skeleton King is a novel* that I (Ross) have been writing on and off for over 10 years now, which began as a comedy serial I was writing for my college's writing club. This current iteration is the 4th draft.

*As of this draft, Skeleton King is no longer one novel, but a series of 5 short novels/novellas, each of which is stylized as an "Act" of a 5-act Shakespearean tragedy. This 5-act structure was present in the 2020 draft, but I hadn't yet accepted that it should probably be split into separate volumes.

CAN I READ THE PREVIOUS DRAFTS?

I'll probably post snippets from the 2020 draft when they become relevant, or if it would be funny to do so. The others will be buried with me.

WHAT IS A "SUB-ACT"?

Skeleton King riffs on story structure pretty explicitly throughout. Each book in the series is an "Act," but each book also has a traditional Act structure within it; most have 3 acts, one has 2, and one has 5. I'm not sure what to call these colloquially, because "chapter" feels insufficient but "act" is confusing. IMO it's easier to understand within the books themselves, because they're labeled like "Act I-1, Act I-2, Act I-3; Act II-1," etc

SO WHAT'S THIS BOOK ABOUT ANYWAY?

Coming up with a good elevator pitch for this book is literally the hardest part, and I'll be seeking guidance on that. On the surface, it's a coming-of-age road trip dramedy about four very strange high school boys, set in 2010, that gradually becomes a supernatural action-comedy; under the hood, it's an unhinged post-post-ironic Story About Stories that is trying to do way too much at once, but that information overload is, itself, one of the most important themes.

WHAT ARE THE MAIN INFLUENCES?

I think listing some of the books that have left the biggest impact on SK's style/tone will be helpful for giving people a yardstick to judge if it's accomplishing its goals. This list is incomplete, and in no particular order:

• The Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy by Douglas Adams • Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell by Susanna Clarke • House of Leaves by Mark Z Danielewski • A Series of Unfortunate Events by Lemony Snicket • Moby-Dick by Herman Melville • Alias Grace by Margaret Atwood • Good Omens by Neil Gaiman & Terry Pratchett • A whole lot of books by Ursula K LeGuin • A whole lot of books by Kurt Vonnegut

If you put all of those books in a blender and then reassembled them into a love/hate letter addressed to the ghosts of Joseph Campbell and Carl Jung, you would get Skeleton King.

WHAT ARE YOU HOPING TO GET OUT OF THIS?

• Motivation to finally finish the series, because I work best when I have an audience • Knowledge of what's working and what isn't, so please be honest about how you react to things, good or bad • A first pass at sensitivity reading. Due to its setting, race, class, and queerness come up a decent amount in these books; I am trying to be thoughtful in how I address these subjects, but if I overstep, I'd much rather be cautioned/corrected by readers I trust before the wider internet gets their hands on it. • The ego boost of watching a scene/joke land as I intended it to • The all-important unspoken corrective of watching a scene/joke I thought would hit flop instead

IS THIS "ROSCOE WATSON" GUY SUPPOSED TO BE YOU?

Roscoe is neither a self-insert nor not a self-insert, but a secret third thing. It's complicated, keep reading.

The most I'll say is that a lot of his interests and mannerisms are based on a teenage me, but his life and upbringing are very different from mine.

THIS IS A HOMESTUCK THING, ISN'T IT?

I only read Homestuck very recently, and did so because people who read earlier drafts of Skeleton King kept pointing out the existing similarities to me. I would like to think that Skeleton King is less obnoxious than Homestuck, but both are definitely engaged in a similar kind of metatextual ADHD maximalism.

DO YOU ACTUALLY LIKE ON THE ROAD?

No.

[aq2003]

#something about how nine says “you were fantastic and yknow what so was i” and eleven says “ill always remember when the doctor was me”#but ten? ten hated being himself. i think.#relaly annoying to me when people always say his “vanity” is why he didnt want to regenerate. NO!! the doctor didnt enjoy being ten i think#and why would they. miserable wet beast shakespearean tragedy bad luck guy of all time#but also theyre terrified of letting go of being ten. because ten is the outlier here. ten is the human one.#ten is the one who loves and grieves so deeply it destroys them. & they WILL lose that when they change. and its terrifying#what was my point. oh yeah#when all the other doctors keep dunking on ten it really supports the idea that the doctor did not have a good time as him i think#and it makes me very sad. thats it thats the tag essay.i m sad#anyway this is why the giggle hit so hard to me . oughhg yeah. yeah. please be nice to the sad miserable doctor theyre going through it via @g1ngerbeer

Something about the way that the doctors always argue when they meet themselves but all of them are always dunking on ten so specifically. Like yes they will all argue with each other but they take one look at that version of themselves and go yikes. You were my middle school cringe fail phase. You're shiny and dumb and easy to trick. There's is so much wrong with you. Unlike me. I'm much more normal now (lying).

[unlikelywrestlingfan]

I'm being a little shit here

What's your thoughts on Jay White and Juice Robinson

I welcome it

Disclaimer: This is about the fictional characters Jay White and Juice Robinson, not the guys who play them, who seem to be lovely gentlemen, and who I appreciate for giving me such well crafted villains to despise. Also, just because I'm a hater doesn't mean others shouldn't love them...this is what people mean when they say I'm kindhearted isn't it? I have a hater disclaimer. Anyways....

Juice Robinson: This man has the most annoying voice in the world, and I fully believe he leans into that. listening to it makes me feel like someone is using cheese graters against both my ears while shrieking. He has the iq of a gnat on acid, who thinks it can do anything. Apparently he used to be a silly jester man before he turned evil and joined BC, but I only know the BC version, and now BCG versions of him. He is a minion of Jay White, which will only end poorly for him, and I will pity his sad self on the day he gets betrayed. As for his actual wrestling ability, I'm going to be honest, my mind gets blinded by irritation and rage when he's on screen so I honestly don't know what his actual wrestling style is, but I'm sure he's quite talented.

Jay White: Where do I begin? I hate him with every fiber of my fragile being. His mere face upon my screen is enough to provoke feelings of rage, him speaking conjures vats of angry lava within my heart, and his actions cause my rage to erupt like a volcano (those are weak metaphors but I am tired and lightheaded, so please bear with me XD). He is a Shakespearean tragedy of a character in the worst best way. Everytime they call the finisher that was shoot lovingly passed down but from my understanding not so in kayfabe that he stole from Alex Shelley "the Bladerunner" I have to resist the urge to go full autocorrect with it's proper name, "the Shellshock." He can't let go of the Bullet Club, so he's now doing Bullet Club Generic, I mean Gold, and DAVID FINLAY IS STILL LETTING HIM GET AWAY WITH IT BUT I HOPE WE WILL SEE SWEET SWEET VENGEANCE ONE DAY. He's my worstie, my nemesis, my mortal enemy, and I enjoy watching him suffer for the consequences of his cowardly actions.

And that's just like. The very tip of the iceberg of my feelings about Jay White. But this is already long XD.

(Obligatory shoutout to gentlemen who play these horrid villains - my hate of your characters is an appreciation for your artistry)

For more information on me hating Jay White, check out my "#elle spites jay white" tag. For more general posts about Jay White, see the "#that knife guy from new japan" tag. Juice does not have a tag but posts about him would be filed under "#bang bang bullet club."

[cto10121]

Our Violent Ends (2021)—Review Part 3 + Conclusion

In which I finally get the Shanghainese politics straight, Kathleen becomes Celia out of nowhere, the Capulets Capulet too late, Roma and Juliette finally R&J nicely, Marshall/Benedikt are still not fully shippable, and Gong has the ovaries for a spectacular, apropos…perhaps not entirely earned ending. Spoilers, of course

“We listened to the modern age and never thought to control what you do,” Lord Cai said then, finally choosing to speak. His words were a low rumble that gave everything in the room a telltale tremor. “I see that it was our mistake.” (452)

A mistake their (frankly dumber) Shakespearean counterparts at least never made. I know why Gong decided against the whole sheltered!Juliet context of the original—namely because Strong Female Protagonists(tm) aka Macho Girl Jerks are now requisite in YA regardless if they are truly needed—but you lose a lot of what made the tragedy of the original work if Juliet is allowed to do whatever tf she wants and the parents get a case of Disappearing YA Parents syndrome. You also lose a good chance to criticize the male chauvinism and machismo that fuels and that is the basis for the violence.

Juliette choked out a laugh. “Do you think any of this would have turned out better if you had kept me trapped in the house? Do you think I would have never learned defiance if you had kept me in Shanghai all these years, educated only by Chinese scholars and their ancient teachings?” […] “I would have ended up the same. We are all held up on the city’s strings, and perhaps you should first ask why we have a blood feud before asking why I defied it!” (452)

Aaaaaaaand Juliette’s being educated in the States in the context of a critique on Western imperialism of a Chinese city still continues to bother me. I mean, Juliette can make it, sure. Perhaps she’s in a better position to make it, what with her knowing two cultures. But this Juliette carping on the white guys coming in and trying to buy the city while acting like the typical American brat just undermines the critique to me. Juliette herself never is self-aware about the advantages or the disadvantages of her own multiculturalism.

“Ask her. Ask Juliette what she did to Tyler.”

Utter silence descended on the room…Suddenly his refusal to bring her in on Scarlet planning made sense. Shutting her out of the Nationalist meetings made sense. How long had her father known? How long had he known she was a traitor and kept her here anyway, let her pretend that everything was normal? (455)

Beats me, too. How did they pass off Juliette’s murder of Tyler? Either I must have missed the conversation or Gong just decided to gloss over the cover up.

“Why must we remain enemies with the Montagovs when nobody remembers why?”

And yet wasn’t that the root of all hatred? Wasn’t that what made it so vicious?

There was never a reason. Never a good one. Never a fair one. (457).

Gong gets that right, at least.

The footsteps faded entirely. Only then did Juliette crumple into a ball, squeezing herself as small as she could upon the carpet, and let herself cry, let herself rage and scream into her hands. For the city, for the dead, for the blood that ran in rivers on the streets. For this cursed family, for her cousins.

For Roma. (457-458)

Per Roma, salve Roma, ciao Roma…*puts on sunglasses* Arrivederci Roma?

Let her drop an explosive to her bedroom floor, and it would send down a direct blast, strike all the people in the living room. Juliette felt a rush of loathing take root in her. She condemned the city for its hate. She condemned her parents, her gangs…But she was equally terrible. (460).

The first step is always acceptance. Seriously, though, WTF? She’d be condemning herself to death as well! And without Roma! Why must Juliette be the one to continuously lose braincells in these damn YA adaptations?

“I ruined us all for a love not true,” Rosalind whispered. “At the very least, I can still save you.” (472)

And now out of nowhere Rosalind regrets her liaison with Dimitri, the one who spread the monster virus (?). When did this even happen?

Juliette had wanted to be selfish, had wanted to run. But this was their love—violent and bloody. This city was their love. They couldn’t deny their upbringing as the heirs of Shanghai, as two pieces of a throne. What was left of their love if they rejected that? How could they live with themselves, look at each other, knowing they had been presented a choice and gone against who they were at their core? (484).

Dude. No. Run! Definitely run! This Shanghai makes RésJ!Verona look like a kindergarten sandbox fight! You two are sophisticated hot wealthy multilingual scions, and half of you already knows about life elsewhere! Come up with some contrivance in which you have to stay in the city, sure, but don’t give me this “Gosh darn it, I love this hellhole” crap. The original R&J may have decided to separate, but then Shakespeare!Verona was nowhere near as crappy. And when push came to shove re: Paris, Juliet accepted the necessity of fleeing with Romeo.

With her other hand, Juliette flipped open the lighter. She met Roma’s eyes, asked him in silence one last time if they were truly to do this. He showed no fear. He was gazing at her as one would gaze out into the sea, like she was this vast, momentous wonder that he was glad simply to bear witness upon. (486).

Don’t mind me, just basking in this novel’s (1) braincell about Roma’s love for Juliette. Ahhh, so good.

Behind them, with gasoline drenched into every square inch of the pavement, the explosion rang so loud and hot that all of Shanghai rocked with the blow. (487).

GONG FUCKING DID IT, Y’All. SHE WENT THERE. WHAT OVARIES OF STEEL. 100,000 POINTS TO FUCKING GRYFFINDOR.

That said. In a way, isn’t it a little unearned? This R&J has been growling fuck-you enemies for half the book and dewy-eyed let’s-pinkie-swear-and-get-“married” for the last quarter. If R&J had spent more time struggling to be together and less time on misunderstandings that get resolved quickly anyway, it may have been worth it. Also, if Gong had not decided to gumbo-soup the novel with, what, 2 other star-crossed couples, wishy-washy politics, and magic realist BS.

There will be hatred. There will be war. The country will fight itself to pieces. It will starve its people, ravage its land, poison its breath. Shanghai will fall and break and cry. But alongside everything, there has to be love—eternal, undying, enduring. Burn through vengeance and terror and warfare. Burn through everything that fuels the human heart and sears it red, burn through everything that covers the outside with hard muscle and tough sinew. Cut down deep and grab what beats beneath, and it is love that will survive after everything else has perished. (494).

Well-worded (except for the “and cry” bit. “Weep” would have been a more dignified word choice) and almost apropos if she hadn’t killed of her R&J. Love did not survive in that sense.

But with that, our tale ends! Arrivederci Roma…and Juliette.

BONUS: Gong included a little story on Marshall/Benedikt for the B&N edition. I decided to go ahead and review that too.

“I saw Roma leave only earlier,” Marshall said. “Right out into the rain without a care in the world.”

“Roma is a lost cause when it comes to making sensible decisions,” Benedikt countered. (504).

Oh, no, you don’t, Benedikt “Screw my reasonable pacifist Shakespearean counterpart, I go pew pew too” Montagov! Roma does have some one-braincell moments, mostly when he thinks Juliette killed Marshall and when she pretended to be dead, but oddly enough, they actually feel OOC for him…which actually would make him in-character with Shakespeare!Romeo? Ugh, it’s weird.

“If anyone asks”—Marshall’s eyes flickered to meet his—“I did it. I beat them up.”

“What? It’s fine—”

“No, it’s not. You are a Montagov. Keep your unruffled reputation. Let me be the fighting fists, let me be the one that does your dirty work.” (521)

Aaaaaaaaand once again the Benvolio analogue is the one portrayed as secretly trigger-happy violent while the Mercutio analogue gets all the sweet, easygoing charm. Kill this with fire.

Conclusion

Review also available here, if cleaned up.

Like most sequels, this is pretty much a copy of the first book. You get an initially enemies-to-lovers R&J with UST who have to work together against a bigger threat and then they stay overnight at a brothel (they don’t do anything this time, though), political factions and alliances shift and change and fuck the city up, and magic realist monsters pop up to wreak havoc. The only difference is that this time the minor characters are less two-dimensional ciphers, Marshall/Benedikt is developed better (but still mega forced), and I can finally tell the difference between Rosalind and Kathleen/Celia a tiny bit more than the first book. R&J’s dynamic is also better portrayed once they get out of their YA UST rut. I finally understand in this book that the Scarlets are meant to be aligned with the Nationalists and the White Flowers with the Communists.

That said, as a retelling it can’t help but feel unsatisfying. Juliette has typical YA Strong Female Protagonist Syndrome out the wazoo and while Roma finally gets his Shakespearean backbone in the sequel, he is still more auxiliary than equal partner to Juliette. The Shanghaiese politics continue to be wishy-washy and riddling, and the magic realist monster thing? Should never have happened. As Gong’s hypothetical editor, I would have put that first on the list to go. Another would have been a choice between the gang warfare angle or Nationalist/Communist/Western imperialist power struggle angle as the feud. But both is way too much.

As it is, Gong’s novel becomes a gumbo soup of too many ideas, too many plots, period. Two star-crossed lovers would have been quite enough, with Marshall/Benedikt forming the B plot, but there really should only have been one. Marshall/Benedikt are different enough from their Shakespearean counterparts to make a romance plausible, thank goodness, but their riddling, hazy characterization makes it really hard to be invested in. R&J suffer from contradictory characterization and start-and-stop development as well, with a couple of nicely written insightful lines.

Above all, though, this series is mired by the truly relentless and unearned thematic link between love and violence Gong establishes early on. R&J’s love really has nothing to do with the feud, but here Gong blends the lines like a sexually frustrated Catholic Tomist. One of my pet peeves is linking (consensual, requited) eros and violence, and I am not impressed. At least Hungarian RetJ had Rómeó and Júlia in their happy little world that did not really touch on the feud. At least WSS’s Tony and Maria were distant from that mess, with only ex-gangster Tony getting roped in. Here R&J are very much active participants in the very thing that makes them impossible to get together. Hence the vacillating they-are-my-enemy-no-they are-my-love wangst. For almost 500 pages. -.- No. Just no.

(Also. The whole everyone-knows-about-R&J thing is really done better in the French musical. Here it just sucks out all the tension and secrecy and mystery out of the relationship, as well as leaving major plot holes. How the hell can the Cais and Montagovs not know about R&J already what with Juliette failing to kill Roma and killing Tyler instead? It’s a Presgurvic-only thing, I guess.)

In sum, I suppose this is what you get when you try to fit an R&J-shaped story in a YA enemies-to-lovers peg. A mess, but an entertaining one. I’ll just stick to my Shakespearean nyases.

[ramblings-of-a-mad-cat]

Shakespearean mc here- what are your thoughts on the different plays? Specifically twelfth night and midsummers night dream since you mentioned characters from those plays plus Macbeth (I’m studying that one in school)

*Cracks knuckles and takes a long, deep breath.* 

Fam I have written entire essays about this for my courses. I have done presentations and powerpoints, not to mention monologues. I have filled journals. You know not what sort of floodgate that you’ve opened. The doorway to my dorkish heart. 

Twelfth Night is my favorite comedy and it was actually the first one I ever saw. The premise behind the show is a farce-like situation, it’s literally one big joke. Viola has a crush, so in order to woo him, she dresses up as a man and goes off to try and convince another woman to date him. Y’know, as you do. But then here’s the kicker - his crush falls in love with the male disguise! I know it’s probably something we all just kind of accept as normal Shakespearian humor at this point, but you must understand how hard Tiny Brandon was laughing when he first saw this, especially since Olivia was played by a friend of mine. (Well I say “friend,” she was a drama coach, but I considered her a friend, so there.) Viola holds a special place in my heart, for being the first protagonist I saw, and I friggin love how she puts it all together immediately and her reaction is just, “I wonder how badly this will all go wrong by the end. Welp! No turning back now!” She’s literally such a mood, and I’m so glad to see her reunited with Sebastion by the end. Speaking of him, I like how he just kind of stumbles upon the plot and passively accepts it. Oliva throws herself at him, and he just accepts. I’ve seen this played multiple ways. In the first production I saw, the guy was bewildered and just kind of went along with it like “Uh...okay?” But later on, I saw a version where my good friend was playing him, and he made me laugh so hard, because he played it like “This total babe wants to marry me. I have no idea why or who she is, but she does NOT need to ask twice.” Also this has nothing to do with anything, but between Oliva falling for “Sezario” and Orsino continuing to treat Viola as a man until they’re married...yeah, this play had characters who were LBGT and didn’t know it. Them’s just the facts. Anyway, I love this little squad, I’d watch a sitcom about them for sure. Oh who am I kidding, the real comedy of this show, the elephant in the room...is Malvolio, and his whole storyline. What a role, and I want it. I wish to play Malvolio before I die. I wish to see fanfiction about him getting revenge on the whole pack of them. I cannot read the cross-gartered scene without laughing. He’s...he’s Percy. He’s literally Percy, right down to how he’s the punch line of the joke, and it’s treated as okay because he’s just that annoying...but y’know I don’t really mind? Like sure, he was wronged. He was most notoriously abused. But it was funny! 

Midsummers is a show that I basically know by the back of my hand by now. It’s one of the classics, it’s like Romeo and Juliet in the sense that it’s one of the shows that everyone had heard of, everyone knows on a basic level even if they hate Shakespare or know little to nothing about his work. And I used to joke that this show was following me. Because everyone was putting it on, and no matter where I went, what company I worked with...inevitably, that show would crop up. If I had any dancing ability or movement training that I hadn’t all but forgotten by now, I would love to play Puck. The ultimate trickster, the ultimate troll. He’s the best. Another classic and cliche plot of course, but that’s because it’s iconic at this point. Like a blend between a soap opera and a farce this time, everything that happens between the four humans in the woods. I love how it’s just canon that Hermia is short, and angry about this. I like how Lysander is kinda witty, “You have her father’s love, Demetrius. Would you marry him?” and y’know, he’s not a bad guy. He does try to get into Hermia’s pants before the wedding, but he backs down when she says no. Demetrius though? He’s a dirtbag. I mean, he’s not as bad as Proteus from Two Gents...but like...are we just never gonna talk about how his love for Helena was artificially induced...and that’s the happy ending? And none of the humans will ever know it? Oh well. There’s also the rivalry between Oberon and Titania, and I always love watching them onstage. They really feel like two deities waging a war, or “playing a game” with each other, with mortals caught in the crosshairs. I believe this romance, I ship it. Titania is a character that I always have high standards for. I expect an amazing performance from her, especially after seeing what my friend Chrissy put in the role. (I doubt you will ever see this, Chrissy, but if you do - shoutout!) Then there's the whole subplot about Pyramus and Thisbe. It’s a little awkward that the production is put on after the whole resolution with the four humans, but I guess it makes sense in-universe. And who cares - it’s always, always the funniest part of that whole show. I look forward to it every time. “This dog. My dog.” 

Don’t get me started on Macbeth. This is my favorite Tragedy and probably my favorite Shakespeare show overall. But it’s not just a Tragedy, it’s a Horror, the very best kind of Horror. A story where the audience is betrayed. The hero that was talked up, named in the show’s title, and introduced as a good man...he does a terrible thing, and it all spirals from there. Leaving the audience stranded, unsure if they’re supposed to still root for him. Not to mention how well this play dives into the psychology of murder. How it changes a person forever, once they’ve done something like that and have to live with it. Macbeth was an ordinary man. He didn’t want to kill Duncan for any personal reason or grudge, it was just because of the obvious reason: Power. He wanted the throne. Sure, every man wants to be king, but once the Witches made it seen attainable, once Lady Macbeth painted that picture in his mind...he made his choice. And it’s so important that he’s ordinary because anyone could fall into that kind of trap. Not to get dark for a second but like...a lot of us have people in our lives who we would probably be better off if they weren’t around. And we probably have at least one person who we could kill and probably get away with it. The monster in the back of the human mind. That is what Macbeth is all about. I know the “Out, damn spot” scene is iconic, but it really demonstrates how different people would respond to trauma in different ways. Then there’s Banquo, who basically figures out the truth but can do nothing about it other than wait for Macbeth to realize he’s a loose end. The mystery of the “third” murderer...and I’ve written essays about who that might have been, too. The hubris of Macbeth not to realize how the witches words could be twisted. I also grew so, so attached to Macduff. The poor guy lost everything, and he was the one who spearheaded the rebellion, and ultimately killed Macbeth. Reading it as a kid, not understanding the line of succession, I remember being so annoyed that he wasn’t made King at the end, because he totally deserved it. Also, as someone else who was, “from my mother’s womb, untimely ripped” I consider Macduff a kindred spirit. 

[butchhamlet]

i’m realizing i just rattled these off without rationale. and nobody needs the rationale because it should be obvious that i’m right. but here it is just in case

1. i know i’m the only person alive under the age of thirty who likes this play but i don’t need to back this one up. she ran an entire kingdom and raised multiple children while serving the utmost cunt of any shakespearean woman and having GNC as fuck swagger. even her haters give speeches about how mesmerizing she is. there’s a guy who doesn’t even LIKE her who goes on about how her appearance on the river was so incredible that the winds and sea fell in love with her boat. did i mention she pegged mark antony so hard that it ruined his entire life and also hers and also the roman republic

2. NOBODY is doing it like edmund kinglear he’s got all the manipulative skill of iago with NONE of the racism or nerd bitch urge to Stop And Think Before He Acts. this guy performs subterfuge basically on a whim and it WORKS and he fucks TWO of the lear sisters and probably also every single servant with information he can use. nearly became king of england by the sheer power of wit, people skills, swagger, and thinking fast. plus he’s ALL about self-determination and i love a man who resists predestination and hates astrology. also he’s trans which makes everybody indubitably hotter

3. richard iii seduced his wife over the dead body of one of her family members. she wanted to kill him at the start of the scene and he pulled it off. what are the kids saying these days. insane rizz. also i jsut KNOW from everything about him that he has a giant d[gunshot]

4. this one is very simple. i need a woman who is mean. i need a woman who is mean and scary and GNC and sooooo so capable. her husband KILLED A GUY ON HER URGING and yes i’m of the reading that he wanted to anyway but it was HER influence that got him to do it. every line she has is a straight fucking banger. i don’t care about the handwashing babygirl i do it too i’ve got hand cream

5. maybe it’s sacrilegious of me to put goneril over regan because only one of the lear sisters engages in a usually-erotically-charged torture scene with her equally deranged husband. but then again, only one of the lear sisters managed to kill the other one, so. i don’t know why i’m so partial to her but she’s sooooo sexy to me. and i need to say it because she needs SOMEONE on her team. rough life out here being the least liked person in a play full of snakes

runner-up: i’m a tragedies guy and characters from the tragedies tend to have more flair and depth imo (not ALWAYS, just, like, as a rule). but i couldn’t leave beatrice off this list because i’m in love with her. i don’t need to back this up literally go read her lines

Top 5 hottest Shakespeare characters

cleopatra

edmund kinglear

richard iii

lady macbeth

goneril kinglear

first runner-up is beatrice muchadoaboutnothing <3

[natsumebookss]

About the case of the Precure anon--the only reason I haven't said more about the situation is because I'm literally getting paid to teach kids proper online etiquette, and I'm not about to put mine at risk for a fandom rivalry.

But let me just say this--people who like both light and dark entertainment exist. I've known people who are all about the cute aesthetic but still love horror movies, and also people who love death metal and Sanrio (which is likely why Aggretsuko is even a thing). And in my opinion, people don't have the right to judge someone else liking two wildly different things. I saw this Precure/PMMM rivalry as a Tumblr lurker in 2014, and I was tired of it then.

When I first developed migraines in high school, those were the two anime I latched onto for escapism. PMMM earlier into my diagnosis, because I wanted to wish my headaches away and if it had consequences, at least it'd burn out into a full-out Shakespearean tragedy, the sort of thing my extra teen self loved. Precure later, because I was getting closer to college and just wanted something fluffy to get me away from the world.

Both views were valid in my eyes, because both influenced me equally. PMMM got me out of my Sayaka-like black and white view of the world, and Precure showed me not only does character development not depend on suffering, but in some cases, shouldn't. (Hence why you will never see me bitching about character treatment in the original PMMM, but I am always here for bitching about how Cure Moonlight deserved better.). Anyway, both shows together have helped me cope more than just about anything else, and I hate the idea that a fan of one can't be a fan of the other.

More importantly, this line of thought kills content creators. While watching Madoka for the first time, I was inspired to start working on a magical girl dystopian series. Yes, it was very likely me trying to mash my two big interests at the time (PMMM and the Hunger Games) together, but it became so much more. I had never been so passionate about anything before, but the first time I saw these sorts of arguments on Tumblr, I almost stopped.

We don't need darker magical girl series. The only people who want them are horny men who want to see little girls suffer.

Do you have any idea how someone like me, a girl who'd loved magical girl stories all my life and genuinely wanted to put their own spin on the genre, felt reading that? For years, I was convinced no one would read my WIP because of these stereotypes. Sometimes, deep down, I'm still afraid this is true.

And here's the thing--I get where these people are coming from. A lot of the post-Madoka series are too edgy for their own good, and I'd love to see a light magical girl series that isn't Precure. One of the reasons I came up with my WIP was me thinking as a kid reading Tokyo Mew Mew, "it's a good thing the bad guys can't engineer people like this," and I am pumped for the reboot. But they can't keep assuming we're a hivemind. A lot of us hate the same MagiReco costumes they hate, and have similar complaints. Some of us even want to take what Madoka did and apply it to our own work, showing how magical girl series can talk about issues of trauma and mental health in mature ways. I know this isn't going to change anyone's mind, and I'm not trying to, but the last thing I want is for this fandom war to blow up again after so long.

TL;DR--l'll let you criticize Madoka all you want if you let me be a joint PMMM/Precure fan, all right?

[9worldstales]

MCU: Is Loki a serial betrayal or not?

So one of the things I see often discussed in the MCU is the long, long history of deceit and betrayal that goes on between Thor and Loki that got mentioned in “Thor – Ragnarok”.

As various MCU movies and comics get mentioned, I made a list of the sources referenced so you’ll know if they might end up spoiling you. Consider yourself warned (or feel free to skip the list if it bores you).

SOURCES MENTIONED:

Movies: “Thor” (2011), “The Avengers” (2012), “Thor – The Dark World” (2013), “Avengers: Age of Ultron” (2015), “Thor – Ragnark” (2017), “The Avengers – Infinity War” (2018), “The Avengers – Endgame” (2019), “WandaVision” (2021)

Comics: “Thor: Son of Asgard” (2004) “Marvel's The Avengers Prelude: Fury's Big Week” (2012)

Direct-to-video animated film: “Thor - Tales of Asgard” (2011)

Motion comics: None mentioned

Books: “Thor: heroes and villains” (2011), “Marvel Studios The first 10 years” (2018)

Novels: “Marvel Cinematic Universe Phase One: Thor” by Alex Irvine (2015), “Thor: The Dark World Junior Novelization” by Michael Siglain (2013), “Loki – Where mischief lies” by Mackenzi Lee (2019), “The pirate angel, the talking tree and captain rabbit” by Steve Behling (2019)

Webs: None mentioned

Others: Interview “A Talk With THOR: RAGNAROK’s Eric Pearson”, interview “Joss Whedon told Comic-Con the question he doesn’t want us to ask ever again”, Interview “Chris Hemsworth (Thor: The Dark World)”, Interview “Tom Hiddleston Talks the Love-Hate of Loki and ‘Thor’”, Interview “Chris Hemsworth Talks Expanding Beyond Asgard, Interview “Building to THE AVENGERS 2, and More on the Set of THOR: THE DARK WORLD”, Interview “Chris Hemsworth ‘Thor: Ragnarok’, Embracing the Comedy, the Thor/Loki Relationship and More”, Interview “Avengers 4 Endgame: Is Loki ALIVE? Chris Hemsworth gave a massive hint at London fan event”, Interview “Avengers stars reveal one big downside to the job”, “How Taika Waititi Made Thor: Ragnarok So Damn Funny”, Interview “How 'Thor: Ragnarok' Honors & Deviates from Its Comics Foundation”, Interview “Empire Podcast Spoiler Special: Thor: Ragnarok with Taika Waititi”, interview “Kevin Fiege Talks Iron Man 2, The Avengers and More”

So now, let’s start with a quote from Eric Pearson, one of the guys responsible for the script of “Thor - Ragnarok”.

“Thor and Loki have had so many interactions, and alliances, and betrayals. They’ve been each others’ nemesis for so long that even they’re a little exhausted by themselves. It’s almost like the fatigue of dealing with each other allows this terminator like force of Hela to just walk in. They’re divided so she conquers.” [A Talk With THOR: RAGNAROK’s Eric Pearson]

So, since math is an awesome thing and “Marvel Studios The first 10 years” gave us an official timeline let’s do some math.

For start the official timeline.

965: Odin adopts Loki

2011: Thor

2012: The Avengers

2013: Thor: The Dark World

2015: Avengers: Age of Ultron

2017: Thor: Ragnarok, Avengers: Infinity War

2022: Avengers: Endgame (actually not mentioned in the timeline but it takes place 5 years after “Avengers: Infinity War”)

Loki is adopted in 965 so he and Thor are adopted brothers by 1052 years in “Thor - Ragnarok”.

So… “Thor” takes place in 2011 and overall covers three days and, in 2 of them, Thor and Loki are on opposing sides. At the end of “Thor” Loki is believed to be dead.

In 2012 Loki shows up again in “Avengers”. Thor arrives on Earth by night and spend there what, a day? before going back to Asgard with Loki, who then spends a year in jail with Thor never visiting him before he is freed in “Thor: The Dark World”, which takes place in 2013.

It’s worth to mention in “Thor: The Dark World” Thor and Loki are allied against Malekit before Loki is believed dead again and instead rules Asgard up until 2017, when “Thor – Ragnarok” takes place.

Anyway this means that in those 1052 years they spent together Loki and Thor had been on opposing sides for 6 years… during which only 1 year was spent with Thor knowing Loki was alive and only 4 days were spent with them actively fighting each other.

But maybe those days were days of intense betrayal… so let’s sum them up.

For start let’s remember everyone that betrayal is a deliberate break of trust, of faith.

“Thor” is the one which contain most betrayal, even though some things weren’t meant to be as such at the time in which it was filmed but whatever, let’s be strict.

- Loki ruined Thor’s coronation

- Loki had Odin warned they were going to Jotunheim so that Odin came saving their lives

- Loki lied about Odin being dead and Frigga not wanting Thor back.

- After making clear he was Thor’s enemy (I mean he sent the Destroyer to ‘Ensure his brother does not return’, could he have been more explicit?) he tricked him into helping him making him believe he was dangling on the edge of the Bifrost and needed his help.

Okay, that’s a total of 4, one of which done to save everyone’s live (and it saved everyone’s life but, as I said, I’ll be strict and still count 4).

“The Avengers” despite painting Loki as the villain, has no betrayal. Loki doesn’t make any attempt to paint himself as Thor’s friend, he doesn’t even call Thor ‘brother’, he makes clear he wants Earth’s crown and he has made clear in “Thor” he wouldn’t hesitate to kill him. Yes, he lies to him about sending the Tesseract away, uses an illusion to trick Thor into ending up in the cage and drop the cage on the ground and stabs Thor on surprise as they’re fighting. He however never let Thor believe they’re on the same side, I’ll say with dropping the cage he remarked how he wasn’t on Thor’s side since he wondered if the fall could kill Thor. If Thor didn’t want to get the message, this was not Loki betraying him, this was Thor refusing to listen. As for Loki surviving to a fall into the void and not warning Thor about it, that’s not betrayal either. When Loki let himself fall in the void it was a suicide attempt. His survival is a plot hole for whom Whedon didn’t really bother making up an explanation.

“Well, I can’t tell you exactly what went on because it’s this dark, dark secret that I didn’t make up yet. But, the other day, I had trouble with that because he had this very passionate Shakespearean tragedy thing going on in Thor and then I needed a villain who’s not only capable, but ready and willing and anxious to take on all these heroes. For me, he just basically went on some horrible walkabout… That was pretty much as far as I got.” [Joss Whedon told Comic-Con the question he doesn’t want us to ask ever again ]

“Avengers: Infinity War” suggested Thanos resurrected him, how is up to speculation. I wonder if it has to do with the mind stone, which somehow resurrected his mind in a way similar to how Wanda resurrected Vision. But I’m not sure Marvel really tried to figure this out beyond ‘it just happened’. Anyway Loki didn’t plan to fake his death, his survival/resurrection was accidental and he didn’t own to his family to send them a note saying ‘I’m alive’.

So we’ve a total of 0.

“Thor: The Dark World” has merely the fact that Loki again didn’t die when he was supposed to. Mind you, he was supposed to die (or if he were to survive this was meant to be a secret as the movie’s ending was meant to be very different), but then they decided to keep him alive and on the throne of Asgard for “Thor: Ragnarok”. So, he clearly was stabbed and let Thor believe the wound was fatal, then went back to Asgard, took Odin’s place, offered Thor the throne and when the latter refused, took it for himself. We can’t count the fact he told Kurse ‘You might want to take the stairs to the left’ as betrayal because, again, being jailed, he’s clearly not on Thor’s same side nor trusted. Betrayal is a break of trust from someone you believed on your side. An enemy doesn’t betray you, a friend does, and Thor stated he doesn’t view anymore Loki as his brother. We also know the action was a miscalculation on his part, he thought Kurse was merely a Marauder, a pirate, not a Dark Elf part of a Dark Elves’ invasion, and he didn’t think it would end up causing Frigga’s death, just some troubles for his father and brother who cast him in that cell and, according to the novelization, he was meant to end up regretting it short after doing it.

“The east stairs lead to the barraks. You’ll find them mostly unguarded.” Loki said and Kurse nodded, then continued on, glad for the inside information. Loki wanted revenge against Thor and Odin – he just hoped that he wasn’t getting more than he hoped for. [“Thor: The Dark World Junior Novelization”]

More explosions occurred aboveground and Loki glanced upward. “Don’t you think you ought to look into that?” he said. Thor scowled at his brother, then strode off toward the stairs. Loki watched his brother leave, a hint of guilt in his eyes. What had he done? [“Thor: The Dark World Junior Novelization”]

So okay, if we count the fact he let Thor believe him he died, and that he was Odin, we’ve a total of 2.

Which leads us to the amazing number of 6.

Now okay, betraying 1 time is 1 time too much but this is not a pattern that pervaded his whole life, this is 2 days in which Loki was not in his right mind due to pain (“Thor”) and a day in which he wanted to avoid being jailed for life as Thor has promised him he would be once they were to get back (“Thor: The Dark World”).

But, but, but, didn’t Loki betrayed and attempted to murder Thor PRIOR to “Thor”? And why aren’t I considering “Thor: Ragnarok” at all?

I mean, in addition to Loki betraying Thor for money, there’s this bit in “Thor: Ragnarok”:

Banner: Okay, can I just... A quick FYI, I was just talking to him just a couple minutes ago and he was totally ready to kill any of us.

Valkyrie: He did try to kill me.

Thor: Yes, me too. On many, many occasions. There was one time when we were children, he transformed himself into a snake, and he knows that I love snakes. So, I went to pick up the snake to admire it and he transformed back into himself and he was like, "Yeah, it's me!" And he stabbed me. We were eight at the time. [“Thor – Ragnarok”]

But the problem is to quote Wanda in“WandaVision” when her ‘brother’ talks about their shared childhood, this sort of relationship, well, ‘That’s not exactly how I remember it.’ From the previous movies, interviews, books, novels and extra material, I mean.

But let’s start with order.

So “Thor: Ragnarok”.

Remember Eric Pearson, the guy whose quote I used to start all this?

For start this guy never worked on a script with Thor and Loki previously.

The most he did was to be involved in the “Marvel's The Avengers Prelude: Fury's Big Week” in which Thor and Loki have some cameo appearances.

So let’s hear what he has to say about Thor and Loki’s relation.

“For introductions, working on Thor’s voice was really great just because Hemsworth is great with the script. He actually pulled me aside one morning to talk to me about the Thor and Loki scenes. He pointed out, correctly so, that what I had was retreading a bit of what had already happened in Thor, Thor: The Dark World and The Avengers. We needed to have their relationship exhibit the amount of awareness that it should have after the audience spent so much time with them on screen. So, the Thor and Loki stuff is also some of my favorite.” [A Talk With THOR: RAGNAROK’s Eric Pearson]

So Hemsworth informed his opinion and which opinion has Chris Hemsworth of the whole matter?

Well, his opinion on Thor’s relationship with Loki evolved as time went by… but FIRST let’s focus on how he believed it was their relationship during or prior the “Thor” movie.

“In the very first film Loki and Thor as brothers had a friendship where there was less hatred involved.” [Chris Hemsworth (Thor: The Dark World)]

It’s not terribly explicative but let’s say that they were more or less friends? So his brother wasn’t trying to murder him from childhood? He wasn’t betraying him from childhood?

According to Thom Hiddleston definitely not.

“I think Loki grows up with an older brother who he loves and respects. They play, they banter and they bash each other about, but there is a latent jealousy. Craig Kyle ‐ one of our producers ‐ always used to talk about the analogy of the quarterback and the artist. Thor is the quarterback. He’s a chip off the old block and he’s just like his dad. Loki’s problem is, maybe not his problem, but [that] he’s more drawn to the powers of intellect, magic, and the dark arts. He’s not going to be out in the fields throwing a hammer around. That’s just not where his passion lies. There’s a disconnect with Odin and there’s a disconnect with Thor. He loves them very much, but he’s not just made of the same stalk. In the course of the film there’s a big reveal both for Loki and the audience about the truth of Loki’s true lineage and who his real parents are. I think that begets any jealous that was within him towards Thor develops into a dark, cancerous rage that then becomes a destructive rage.” [“Tom Hiddleston Talks the Love-Hate of Loki and ‘Thor’”]

And the ruining of the coronation? As the movie itself said it was done because he didn’t believe his brother was ready to rule… but let’s also read this bit always from Tom Hiddleston.

“He’s certainly not an anarchist who wants to burn the house down. I think he has an inner conviction. He loves a practical joke, he loves mischief and he loves playing around. He loves starting a bonfire in the next room and hearing people scream, but nobody would be killed.” [“Tom Hiddleston Talks the Love-Hate of Loki and ‘Thor’”]

In short it wasn’t meant to cause any serious harm... same as warning his father was meant to save them. Of the 4 times in “Thor” in which Loki betrays Thor, 2 are not done with evil intentions in mind.

But maybe it’s just Tom Hiddleston?

Nope, we’ve the booklet “Thor: heroes and villains” agree with this.

“Loki is often the voice of reason to Thor’s impulsiveness and is usually relied on to talk his older brother out of sticky situation.” [“Thor: heroes and villains”]

“As Odin’s younger son, Loki has always known the throne of Asgard will never belong to him. He has, however, tried his best to be a good brother to Thor and a son Odin could be proud of.” [“Thor: heroes and villains”]

Then we’ve this in the “Thor” movie:

Sif: He may speak of the good of Asgard, but he's always been jealous of Thor.

Volstagg: We should be grateful to him, he saved our lives.

Hogun: Laufey said there were traitors in the House of Odin. A master of magic could bring three Jotuns into Asgard.

Fandral: Loki's always been one for mischief, but you're talking about something else entirely. [“Thor”]

The group suspects Loki wants to hand Asgard to the Jotuns, but up till the end of the movie Loki will have Asgard’s best interests in mind. His way to pursue them though, by destroying the Jotuns, is beyond ruthless but it’s not traitorous toward Asgard.

Also they’ve nothing against him beyond the fact he was jealous of Thor. They mention no stabbing episode, no murdering attempt no previous betrayal. Loki was jealous and they fear this had caused him to do something extreme. NOW. They’ve nothing they can use against him from the past, their suspects are based on Loki’s jealousy, the fact he’s a wizard and Laufey’s words.

Even the “Thor” novelization, which discusses their relation, doesn’t mention murder attempts prior to the Destroyer thing.

From Thor’s point of view:

“His younger brother has always been something of a mystery to him. While Thor had been eager to spread his wings, fight in battles, and go off on grand adventures, Loki had always been more hesitant. True, he had Thor’s back, but it was often only out of necessity.” [“Marvel Cinematic Universe Phase One: Thor”]

From Loki’s point of view:

“Why did he always seem to get into trouble because of his older brother? Wasn’t he supposed to be the wiser one? Odin has expressly forbidden that they enter Jotunheim. Yet it wasn’t the first time Thor had done something reckless. And it wouldn’t be the first time Loki was powerless to stop him.” [“Marvel Cinematic Universe Phase One: Thor”]

Loki had Thor’s back, albeit he wasn’t happy about it, Thor is the one who causes troubles, everyone knows and in the novel Loki is regularly sent by Sif and the Warriors Three to calm Thor down and make him think.

Long story short Thor and Loki seemed to be originally planned to have a relationship similar to the one they had in “Thor - Tales of Asgard” direct-to-video animated superhero film which came out in the same year as “Thor”.

So, why somehow in “Thor: Ragnarok” it morphed into the one they have in the comics “Thor: Son of Asgard” (2004) if not worse?

Well, somehow Hemsworth’s feelings shifted along the way between “Thor: The Dark World” and “Thor: Ragnarok”. He was aware of how Loki and Thor’s relationship was portrayed in the comics and this bits fits with how in “Thor: Ragnarok” he just wants to tell Loki he didn’t care anymore.

I mean I can’t say too much but I think in the comic books, you kind of roll your eyes sometimes at the amount of times that they’re back to being best friends so we wanted to keep in mind that he did just try to kill you for the seventh time, and Earth and millions of people and what have you, so… [Chris Hemsworth Talks Expanding Beyond Asgard, Building to THE AVENGERS 2, and More on the Set of THOR: THE DARK WORLD]

Without giving too much away, I didn't want to repeat that relationship either. And Tom felt the same. All of us were like, ‘What can we do again here?’ There’s a bit of reversal as far as... In the first films, a lot of the time you’re seeing Thor going, 'Come back Loki, and da-da-da-da.' [But now] there’s a feeling from Thor that’s just like, 'You know what, kid? Do what you want. You’re a screw up. So whatever. Do your thing.' [Chris Hemsworth ‘Thor: Ragnarok’, Embracing the Comedy, the Thor/Loki Relationship and More]

"Ahhh, he's like the girlfriend you break up with and they don't get the message. Like, 'You're dead, sorry, it's over,' and they're coming round to hang the new drapes. "The most poignant moments (of Thor's movies) have been with Loki." [Avengers 4 Endgame: Is Loki ALIVE? Chris Hemsworth gave a massive hint at London fan event]

Until we get to “Avengers: Infinity War” in which he makes clear he believes Loki fooled him time and time again so that he doesn’t want him back…

While the cast share an obvious camaraderie, a void remains after Tom Hiddleston’s Loki died in Infinity War. Would Hemsworth bring back his troublesome onscreen brother if he could? “No. Why would I do that?” he answers, blankly. “He fooled me time and time again. But on the personal side, I was with Tom since the beginning of this journey and I learned a lot from him.” Hemsworth pauses. “If you’re asking if Thor would bring him back, I think if he could have done he would have. But for me, I don’t know.” [Avengers stars reveal one big downside to the job]

…even if Thor would have (and of course he would have if we’ve to believe Thor’s tears in “Avengers: Infinity War” and his depression in “Avengers: Endgame” are due to Loki’s death and it’s not merely due to how ‘fun’ it is to have a depressed Thor who ends up neglecting his health by drinking too much and getting fat… because being a source of amusement isn’t really a reason why you should introduce a depressed character in a story).

So yes, maybe Pearson didn’t go to the right source of info for Thor and Loki’s relationship.

However, credits when it’s due, the scene about Loki wanting to kill Thor from childhood is not so much due to Pearson or Hemsworth but due to Waititi.

Hewitt: You know, there’s another moment I love, when they have the little huddle about Loki, and he tells the story about how Loki turned into a snake.

Waititi: Yeah, yeah.

Hewitt: And that felt improv’d.

Waititi: Yeah, there was basically- what we did about six different versions of that story, and that was just us standing around, while the cameras are rolling, while I would just feed them lines, and feed Chris ideas for some stories. I was, “Oh, do one, this one, um, say, “I was walking through a field, and I saw a lovely Turkish rug in the middle of the grass, and I love Turkish rugs, so I went to stand on it, and it was Loki, and he turned back into Loki, and it was a hole, and I fell through the hole, and was impaled in the hole, full of spikes”.”

Hewitt: *laughs*

Waititi: As I did all versions of that and I just kept going with- Yeah, the one with the snake just turned out to be the one we used. [Taika Waititi On Screenwriting: An Empire 30th Anniversary Special]

And so how did Waititi envisioned the Thor-Loki dynamics? This is how Waititi describes Thor’s live:

“To be perfectly honest, he’s a rich kid who lives in a castle in outer space. I don’t know any of those people, but I do know people who come from dysfunctional families. He barely talks to his parents — well, his mom’s dead now — his brother is trying to kill him his entire life, and he’s supposed to be king, and he doesn’t want to be a king. A lot of it is also this father-son relationship stuff of him trying to prove himself, or trying to find his own identity, and I really relate to that. My dad was a very big personality in New Zealand and in our area, and I’ve always been trying to do my own thing to separate from him, while at the same time trying to impress him. Which is the story of pretty much all guys, and probably most girls, who are choosing a parent to impress. That was my way in with him.” [“How Taika Waititi Made Thor: Ragnarok So Damn Funny”]

Why Waititi came up with such an idea for their dynamics is up to everyone’s speculation because in itself it’s not important if he actually got told about it by Hemsworth, Pearson or by Brad Winderbaum, who admitted taking inspiration from the comics for “Thor – Ragnarok”…

“I'll tell you the three things we looked at the most. We're pulling a lot stylistically from Kirby [but] we're also looking at the Walt Simonson Ragnarok arc [and]… God of Thunder, the Jason Aaron book.” [How 'Thor: Ragnarok' Honors & Deviates from Its Comics Foundation]

… if this is the result of that 1 short comic he read…

“That’s a thing about me, guys, I did not do my research.” … “I read one issue of Thor as my research. Not even a graphic novel, it was one of the thin-thin ones.” … “And by the end of it, “Hm, well, we’re not doing that”. [Empire Podcast Spoiler Special: Thor: Ragnarok with Taika Waititi]

Waititi wanted to do his own story, not a continuation of the previous movies.

“I was lucky enough they didn’t force me to acknowledge things- there were certain things in the film, like the play, which makes fun of the scene in The Dark World where Loki dies, but there’s a point to that play, sort of to recap what happened, but also to tell the audience, “This is not what you think it’s going to be, this film is not going to be a continuation of that. It’s its own thing, and what you think you expect from this film ends at this play.”” [Empire Podcast Spoiler Special: Thor: Ragnarok with Taika Waititi]

This is not the point where I discuss what I think of this idea of stepping all over the previous movies to create a ‘new Thor’ that the Russo brothers proceeded to dismantle in the next movie.

In 2010 Feige was already on board with the idea ‘the movie comes first’ and the ‘connective tissue’ is fun and very important if you want it to be.

“It's never been done before and that's kind of the spirit everybody's taking it in. The other filmmakers aren't used to getting actors from other movies that other filmmakers have cast, certain plot lines that are connected or certain locations that are connected but I think for the most part, in fact, entirely everyone was on board for it and thinks that its fun. Primarily because we've always remained consistent saying that the movie that we are making comes first. All of the connective tissue, all of that stuff is fun and is going to be very important if you want it to be. If the fans want to look further and find connections than they're there. There are a few big ones obviously, that hopefully the mainstream audience will able to follow as well. But the most important thing and I think the reason that all the filmmakers are on board is that their movies need to stand on their own. They need to have a fresh vision, a unique tone and the fact that they can interconnect if you want to follow those breadcrumbs is a bonus.” [Kevin Fiege Talks Iron Man 2, The Avengers and More]

“Thor – Ragnarok” merely took it to an extreme, retconning a lot from the original to the point some feel “Thor – Ragnarok” is a parallel universe compared to the previous 4 movies, with its own canon.

So when they needed a joke they didn’t bother checking the previous canon, they just needed a joke and so they added that scene, and it somehow got so popular it got referenced in two novels, sorta, even if in both gets ‘adapted’.

Once he was in the room, the servant girl would likely go unnoticed enough to eavesdrop – certainly less noticed than a snake, which had been his initial plan, and which was easier to imitate than an Asgardian. But snakes tended to gather attention – Thor would pick up any serpent to admire it. [“Loki- Where mischief lies”]

In “Loki – Where mischief lies” by Mackenzi Lee the stabbing isn’t included, the book only keep Thor’s fascination for snakes and his habit to pick them up… but the scene couldn’t have happened when they were children as Loki is a teen in the book and has learnt only recently to use shapeshifting magic.

In “The pirate angel, the talking tree and captain rabbit” by Steve Behling the scene is partially retconned as well.

Where in the movie is played as a clear murder attempt in the book we’ve the same story but in a different contest.

“Hey, what did I tell you about insulting our guest?” Rocket scolded, shaking his head. “If anyone’s gonna do any insulting around here, it’s gonna be me.”

Groot looked at Rocket, and enacted an impressive-albeit obnoxious-imitation of the same sneet that Rocket used on Thor just few second earlier.

“I am-“

“Don’t finish that sentence,” Rocket warned.

“Gr-“

“I mean it! You wanna have tablet privileges revocked for a week, you go right ahead and finish that though.”

If Groot had pockets, he would have showed his limbs stubbornly into them, turned around grumbling, and walked away. As it was, he didn’t, so after a moment’s stare-off with Rocket he simply muttered, “I am Groot,” then ambled away.

“He’s in an awkward phase,” Rocket said to Thor by way of explanation, turning his attention to the master control panel.

“Adolescence is never easy,” Thor said looking over Rocket’s shoulder. “I remember when Loki and I were children. Loki transformed himself into a snake, and because I really, really love snake, I went to pick it up. But the moment I did, the snake transformed back into Loki, and then he stabbed me.”

It was at least ten second before Rocket spoke. And when he finally did, he sighed and said, “Why do I have the feeling you tell this story a lot? Like, A LOT.”

Thor smiled wanly. “Maybe a few times,” he acknowledged.

“I bet this Loki gets a big kick out of it every time you tell it,” Rocket said, chuckling.

The thin smile on Thor’s face quickly fell.

“Not anymore,” were the only words Thor could manage before he turned away. [“The pirate angel, the talking tree and captain rabbit”]

While in “Thor: Ragnarok” this story seems to be a proof Loki is an homicidal maniac because it’s compared to him wanting to kill Banner and Valkyrie and therefore, despite the idea this is a joke, make the whole matter a serious business, here Loki’s actions are compared to the ones of a teenager tree wanting to insult someone else and being told not to. It seems one of those stupid things little kids do in anger, or thinking it’s just a game, without really understanding the consequences they could have (=killing someone). Thor seems to almost brag about it, as if it was a funny childhood tale about the idiotic things they did as kids, not a cautious tale against his brother and the risks of trusting him.

It’s still a story that’s clearly out of character for how Loki was meant to be PRIOR to “Thor”, but at least now it’s better inserted in the contest and can fit vaguely more with the previous canon.

But whatever, that’s it.

So, in a way, we’ve two universes, one is the Pre-Ragnarok one, in which Loki prior to Thor loved his brother and had a good relation with him, and the other is the Ragnarok one, in which Loki wanted him dead from childhood.

Both exist.

It’s something a part of the fandom is well aware of, but also something another part of the fandom is ABSOLUTELY unaware of.

I’m not going to tell you which universe you’ve to favour, if the one in which Loki loved Thor or the one in which he wanted him dead, that’s up to your personal preference.

But if you’re among the many who’re still confused about why the fandom has split opinions about the relationship between the brothers… well, that’s a summary of the history behind it all.

Honestly, with the incoming “Thor – Love and Thunder” and “Loki” series, I’ve no idea what will be the future of it all. Waititi will probably want to go back to his “Thor – Ragnarok” continuity… unless he wants to reinvent Thor all over again so we’ll get another additional universe for Strange to enjoy in his upcoming “Doctor Strange in the multiverse of madness”… in addition to the universes created in “Avengers – Endgame” when the characters changed the past and the ones Loki will be creating in “Loki”.

Sorry, Doctor Strange, I guess you’ll have your hands full.

[bringmoreknives]

Can you explain to me the whole demolition lovers story? I only remembered that the guy had to kill 1000 evil men. Other than that i am lost and i was super mindblown with what you said about the hang em high lyrics about the dem. bride because i was never able to connect a lot of lyrics with part of their story. (Or if you don't have time can you direct me to ANYWHERE at this point where someone analyses the whole story?) Thank you x

sure! i’m no expert but here’s a little intro to the story. (i wrote this and then proceeded to write like over 500 words oof)

so basically the demolition lovers are the couple at the center of the narrative of the song named after them and then the revenge narrative after that. based on the lyrics to the song, we can assume they’re like, a crime duo, bonnie-and-clyde-esque, and the song kind of narrates their capture and defeat (by someone unnamed but i always kind of saw it as the police).

at the end of this song, in the space between the albums so to speak, the woman dies, but her lover escapes. and the devil comes to the man with a deal -- he says he’ll return the woman to the world of the living, if the man brings the devil the souls of one thousand evil men. so this is the beginning of the revenge story, and why revenge deals so much with themes of murder and violence and mortality. because the man is forced to commit all these heinous crimes. it’s about weighing awful thing against awful thing, it’s about morality. i have to kill these people because if i don’t, i’ll never see her again, not until we’re both dead. but how do i deal with this selfish act? is it worth it?

then the ending of the narrative is that the man’s killed 999 evil men. he’s so close to his goal, to getting to see his love in person again. and then he realizes the cruel irony of the devil’s deal, because they all come with a price. the last evil man he has to kill to complete the deal is himself. which is like, obviously very “tragic with a capital t” Tragedy, like shakespearean and stuff, but it’s also SO interesting to consider the big questions this raises. what makes someone evil? is there a point when they cross the line from good to evil? can evil acts be justified?

this is like, the confirmed story/timeline. beyond that, a lot of the stuff i talked about is more my take on things. some things like the orpheus and eurydice comparisons are something i’ve always seen as obvious. if you don’t know, orpheus and eurydice is a greek myth, where orpheus is the son of apollo and the muse calliope, and an extremely talented musician. he marries a girl named eurydice but she dies suddenly and tragically and he goes crazy with grief. through a combination of like demigodly abilities and musical prowess he makes his way down to hades, in the realm of the dead, and asks for eurydice back. hades says she can come back to the world as long as while she follows orpheus out of hell, he doesn’t look back at her. he has to be patient and trusting. but he can’t be, he loses the sound of her footsteps and looks back and she’s trapped in hell forever. the “don’t look back” part of hang ‘em high is relevant and also there are just a lot of similar plot beats.

as for what i said about hang ‘em high being about the girl demo lover’s time in hell, that’s never been confirmed or anything. a lot of the songs are only loosely thematically connected to the main narrative, or by a few lines. i honestly never thought of it until i saw @draintheblood (sorry for @’ing you so much lol)’s art for this song, and i instantly fell in love with the idea. the song has kind of crazy wild west vibes and also refers to a woman specifically quite a few times. i think that overall the story is way more about the guy than the girl, which is frustrating, so i like the idea that hang ‘em high could be a little bit about her at least.

um ANYWAY. if you like the basics and want to hear more natasha @gerardofarc has this amazing demo lovers post that literally gives me CHILLS every time. i would also totally recommend the rest of draintheblood’s revenge series, it fleshes out the demo lovers/revenge narrative in a way i never really thought of before!

[cilil]

I LOVE TALKING ABOUT THEM TOO AND YOU'RE GIVING ME FEELS😩❤️ (and also thank you for being so sweet, especially about the egg fic, it's very dear to me and one of my favorite things I've written🤗).

If I had to write Gothmog's inner monologue as he falls into that (stupid and clearly Balrog-phobic) fountain it would be "Oh no. Oh shit. Oh fuck." Which is not exactly Shakespearean tragedy material, but what I think is an in-character reaction. Because yes, in my mind he's thinking about all the people he loves and is loyal to and how they need him (not wrong) and how his mentally and physically ill Vala can't even bring him back.

The relief that he won't have to fight Eönwë now probably came as a bit of an afterthought once he was dead (assuming that slain Maiar are not immediately and not entirely dormant)/as an attempt to comfort himself. Though this also comes with the unfortunate side effect of Gothmog's Balrog siblings having to fight Eönwë, which in my headcanons has happened and he was responsible for killing at least one of them. Yet more drama.

(Though don't worry, it doesn't ruin their relationship or anything; knowing that everyone has their orders and the Balrogs would rather die than go to Valinor, Gothmog is weirdly chill about it. But Eönwë will of course assume he hates him for it and angst about it.)

Last words... oooh let me write this down. I could write about that sometime👀

And yes. Gothmog is the biggest softie with his bird boy. Always very careful not to set him on fire. Always keeping him warm. Would take him into a volcano for hibernation if Eönwë was more fireproof.

Omg wait there's asshole Eönwë fanon? The only thing I can think of is "nice guy" Eönwë in the context of Eönwë/Mairon, either doing something nasty to him post-WoW or an AU where he drags him to Valinor - not my default take, but something I certainly entertain for a fic if requested. But otherwise I thought Eönwë was in the clear... well, apparently not. Maybe he's guilty by association due to the prominent anti Valar fanon. I saw someone claiming once that he's problematic for saying a slur. Interesting claim to make about a character with one line of direct dialogue.

The weak and stupid allegations probably come from the Mairon issue as well, but like... is the narrative parallel between Melkor deceiving Manwë and Mairon deceiving Eönwë due to evil people taking advantage of the very mercy and kindness they deny others just invisible to people? I suppose themes are sometimes a bit tough to spot (though Tolkien spelled it out somewhere). But that's what it is. And I frankly think Eönwë - while he will most certainly beat himself up over this in later years - was wise not to continue the cycle of violence. Same goes for his treatment of Maedhros and Maglor. It was simply mercy. The very nature of mercy is that it's not always the smartest or most optimal thing or you get an immediate benefit from it (see also Bilbo and Frodo with Gollum: Technically it bit them in the ass to spare Gollum, but it also allowed for the One Ring to be destroyed in the end).

I also think Manwë very deliberately chose a Maia as his herald who can embody his ideals of kindness and forgiveness instead of some warmongering, vengeful spirit.

Sorry for the tangent, anyway -

A hypothetical duel between Gothmog and Eönwë would make for such a good dramatic fic. I'll write that one down as well👀

Eönwë is the kind of person you never want to be angry at you. And it's really not hard to stay on his good side, but my god, if he snaps you're in BIG TROUBLE. He's one scary raptor and he can take down prey above his pay grade too (Melkor).

As for the egg, I have this headcanon that part of the reason why it even exists is because Eönwë felt so lonely and it then came into his head that if he, you know, allowed something to come from his and Gothmog's shenanigans he would have something to love and take care of at home too, something that's entirely his own and made with love. I hope maybe Ilmarë and Arien are willing to be egg aunties and maybe contribute some sun and star fire to nurture the little phoenix Maia before they started gnawing on high kings of the Noldor (run Ara run)😌

(Same about Manwë and Melkor, also both platonic and romantic. Manwë was definitely very alone with this; normally he can tell Varda and Ulmo everything, but this they don't get.)

Hand on my heart: I have been sitting on a broad outline of an Eönwë-centric character study type long fic and one of its main themes is him struggling with his mental health. There may be some self-harm and suicidal tendencies involved. Because he blames himself for everything that went wrong and hates himself for being a warrior spirit and thinks he deserves to suffer for every single thing he did wrong. He's been spiralling ever since Gondolin and Númenor will absolutely drag him down.

Gosh I love these characters so much, thank you for letting me rant😭❤️

wait wait wait, it took me so long (i was binge-reading all your fics hehe) to realize the romeo-and-juliet type of relationship eonwe and gothmog have going on. its even better because tolkien once envisioned gothmog and eonwe to be the children of melkor and manwe so them meeting up secretly is sooooooo sweet but heartbreaking, like they are on opposite sides, and they know they'll eventually fight each other. but gothmog died first, so how did eonwe handle that. imagining him trying to live after gothmog's death is just asdkjakdakds

You're too sweet❤️❤️❤️

And yes, this is what really sucked me in too once I realized it! We (my friends and I) started out seeing Firebird as more of a crack ship or something that's maybe hot for smut, but then we realized the old Lost Tales connection and the doomed, tragic love and the parallels between them and... everything.

In a weird way, Gothmog falling in Gondolin was mercy for them both. Otherwise a confrontation during the War of Wrath would've been pretty much inevitable, especially if Gothmog had once again been ordered to go after the Elven kings (Eönwë can't just let him kill Finarfin and it's not like he's that terrible of a friend either). They would've fought each other, knowing that they have orders and that the other knows and understands this as well.

As for what the outcome of that fight would've been, I'd say 70-80% in Eönwë's favor, with this being a sort of average between "they duel and it's just them" (which is more beneficial to Eönwë) and "because the forces of evil cheat, Gothmog gets random assistance from other Balrogs" (similar to what happened with Fingon). Even if they refused to kill the other in the end, someone else on their side happily would. One of them would've wound up dead for sure.

Eönwë tries to take comfort in the fact that this scenario has been avoided and soon realizes that Melkor currently can't bring his Maiar back - so Gothmog also stays dead - but that means he no longer has the one person in his life who understands him. In all his other relationships, he has to perform; whether that's actually true or not is another question, but Eönwë definitely feels that way. It's not like he can tell, say, Manwë, Finarfin or Eärendil about his killer instincts and how he sometimes has the urge to hack, slash and dive bomb people.

What makes this worse is that Eönwë also can't express his grief, or at least he has to pretend it's just about Gondolin. How would he explain that he's mourning the evil Lord of Balrogs more than the brave warrior Elves?

It gets even worse in the one verse where he has an egg and now has to hatch it alone (which may or may not even be possible without another fire spirit) and can never tell anyone where it came from.

Maybe Eönwë goes into the War of Wrath so readily because he doesn't have much to lose. He doesn't feel quite at home or connected and has nobody to talk to about it and nobody to make him feel accepted and loved regarding the parts of himself that he always has to hide. But he also can't just... give up. He's immortal. Even if he died, Manwë would still be more than capable of bringing him back. And he has a purpose to fulfill.

So yeah. Poor Eönwë indeed😭

And now I'll go and dig up (pun intended) some Firebird headcanons for Ainur Week

[britesparc]

Weekend Top Ten #464

Top Ten Feelgood Moments in Movies

Serendipity’s a funny thing, isn’t it? I’ve been planning to make this week about feelgood films since, oooh, late November maybe. I mean, we’ve had enough misery since 2016 to last us an entire Middle-Earth Extended Edition boxset. We need our Pelennor Fields moments wherever we can get them, and Joe Biden being sworn in as President is a good a moment as any right now. So anyway, that was the plan, and then along comes good old Empire magazine with a month dedicated to top cinema moments. They’re not all feelgood, to be fair – there’s the chestburster scene from Alien for a kick-off – but it’s one of those instances of curious synchronicity. What I’m saying is, I didn’t rip them off, okay? This was percolating since the Tangerine Nightmare lost Georgia.

Anyway: feelgood.

This was surprisingly hard, because the moments that I cherish aren’t always feelgood. Even in Lord of the Rings, even in the Pelennor Fields, the whole Ride of the Rohirrim stuff is laced with tragedy. The best bits of those films – “Fly, you fools!”, “For Frodo,” “I can’t carry it but I can carry you,” “Go away and don’t come back” – they’re all melancholy, aren’t they? It’s a saga about people being heroic under duress, and in those cases quite often people don’t make it back all in one piece. Think about Pixar, what are the great moments? “Thanks for the adventure, “So long partner,” “Take her to the moon for me” – they’re all about loss. Or rather, new joy from loss, hope from despair, that kind of thing. They’re terrific, they always make me cry, but they’re not exactly feelgood if you know what I mean.

So here we are. Moments of utter joy, that’s what I’m after. Heart soaring, tears pouring, euphoric moments of extreme happiness. I’ve tried for the most part to avoid joyous moments of excess: there’s one explosion and one bit where a dude gets stabbed in the face, but for the most part I’ve eschewed “feelgood violence” for want of a better word. These are scenes that are supposed to make you smile.

And y’know what? We could all do with smiling more in this day and age.

Good luck, Joe and Kamala. Do a good job. Take us to the moon.

(P.S. spoiler alert for, well, pretty much every film in the list)

“Happy birthday, Aunt Lucy.” (Paddington 2, 2017): after ninety minutes of watching Paddington bring out the best in everybody just by existing, we all feel he deserves a happy ending. And everyone pulls together and gets it for him. Everyone he’s helped, everyone whose life he touched, they’re all there, leading Paddington – and us – to the door. As an adult, you know what’s coming; kids are less sure. But it’s a joyous moment of nothing but true happiness. Two CGI characters hug with such sincerity you can feel the warmth from the screen, and then comes those last words – quiet, whispered, almost thrown away. It’s perfect.

“When you realise you want to spend the rest of your life with somebody, you want the rest of your life to start as soon as possible.” (When Harry Met Sally, 1989): romcom endings are very hard. You’ve navigated a couple’s relationship, generally speaking you’ve split them up in act three, and now they need to get back together in a big, extravagant way, that undoes the plot machinations that separated them. No one does it as well as Harry here, delivering a soliloquy on what it means to be in love, loving a person’s quirks and foibles and how they occupy your mind, ending with that superb line. Sally says it best: when he says stuff like that, he makes it impossible for us to hate him.

“On your left.” (Avengers: Endgame, 2019): Captain America stands alone, battered and beaten, his unbreakable shield broken. The vast armies of Thanos stand before him. He faces certain death, and the probable destruction of everything. He grits his teeth, tightens his shield straps, and then… Sam Wilson’s voice, delivering a line from several films ago, a moment of levity and shared continuity. His friends arrive, slowly at first; Black Panther, the Guardians, Spider-Man. Legions from across the cosmos. “Is that everyone?” asks Doctor Strange. “You wanted more?!” replies Wong. And then giant Ant-Man bursts through a building, with Hulk and co. An army of good from across the galaxy to face the forces of evil. Cap calls forth Mjolnir (and that moment was so nearly my choice), and then… “Avengers… assemble.”

“That’ll do, pig.” (Babe, 1995): Babe is one of those films that’s mostly joy: feelgood throughout, really, despite moments of drama or sadness. But after some nail-biting scenes as Farmer Hoggett and his piggy bud do their sheepdog act, we have a moment of angsty silence before the crowd goes ballistic, cheers everywhere, women crying, top marks. And then very softly, oh-so-tenderly, Hoggett’s great catchphrase. It’ll do. It’ll always do.

“Indiana… let it go.” (Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade, 1989): a film built on witty repartee and full-throated spectacle, Crusade lingers in the memory due to the subtle character work between father and son. They mend their fractured relationship over the course of the movie, but it’s really symbolised when Henry saves “Junior” at the expense of rescuing the Grail, calling Indiana by his chosen name for the first time in the film. It’s a great character beat, and is followed shortly afterwards by the protagonists literally riding off into the sunset.

“I am no man!” (The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King, 2003): as I alluded to above, the Rings trilogy is full of incredible moments of awe, pathos, tragic heroism, and bittersweet joy. But arguably the biggest cheer is reserved for when Eowyn of Rohan dispatches the Witch-King of Angmar courtesy of a Shakespearean loophole in his whole “no man can kill me!” schtick. Coming between the awe-inspiring Ride of the Rohirrim and the death of Theoden, it’s a terrific punch of joy and satisfaction.

“E.T. phone HOOOOOME!” (E.T. the Extra-Terrestrial, 1982): E.T. is another of those films full of joy, but it’s also tinged with sadness. Melancholia bleeds into the film like sunlight through Elliot’s blinds. E.T. himself spends half the film getting sicker and sicker, until he appears to die, all pale and cold-looking. But then! The flower comes back to life! His heart glows bright red, visible through his weird hyperbaric chamber/coffin thing! Elliot flings back the lid, and E.T. barks his catchphrase euphorically. God, it’s great.

“Andy Dufresne, who crawled through a river of shit and came out clean on the other side.” (The Shawshank Redemption, 1994): it’s a bit of a grim watch, Shawshank; this isn’t a Paddington-style joy-fest. Andy is wrongfully impression and then spends twenty years being brow-beaten and abused before making his escape. But what an escape; not just the audacity of it – not just the fact he gets out at all – but how he ingeniously tunnels his way out over the decades, steals the warden’s ill-gotten money, exposes the scandal at the prison, and – as Red says – crawls through a sewer. It’s a beautifully put-together scene, everyone getting their just desserts and deserved rewards, and is capped off shortly after when Red himself is released and gets to retire alongside his friend.

“You’re all clear, kid, now let’s blow this thing and go home!” (Star Wars, 1977): I almost had the mothership explosion from Independence Day on this list, because I remember how much that impacted me as a teenager; seeing the baddie aliens get theirs was just great. But really it’s a replication of this, the grandaddy of all “beating the bad guys” big bangs. Luke, whiney teenager from nowhere, ends up flying an X-Wing against the evil oppressive Empire’s mighty Death Star. When all hope seems lost, Han Solo returns, proving his heroism, knocking Darth Vader for six and leaving our hero free and clear to use the Force, Luke. Cue phenomenal fireball. Joy!

“I’m singin’ in the rain…” (Singin’ in the Rain, 1952): musicals are joyous, aren’t they? A proper old-fashioned feelgood sing-song can be transcendent. “Singin’ in the Rain” – as in, the song/dance number – is about a bloke so bloody happy that he doesn’t care if he gets wet. It’s a euphoric statement of intent, a declaration of both love and supreme serenity in and of itself. And as a piece of cinema, it’s all that and more; an escalating dance routine, as the music soars and the camera lifts up, and we take in the splendour of this one bloke kicking in puddles. It’s daft, it’s funny, and it’s just, well, feelgood.