#anti sandor

[the-daily-dreamer]

For a brief moment I lived in a world where SanSan shippers and Sandor defenders weren’t real and I was so happy. But naturally the filth of this fandom comes up and strikes at the worst times and ruins all good things.

So a reminder: TW SA

Sandor Clegane is a grown man and creep who is sexually attracted to a girl between the ages of 12-14.

Even if he didn’t act on it, the mere fact that he is interested in sleeping with a child is disturbing and disgusting.

It’s not unfathomable that Sandor would r*pe Sansa, he very much considered it and admitted as much.

Just because he didn’t officially r*pe Sansa does not mean that his actions during the battle of Blackwater were “good” just by comparison. A key part of SA is the power the perpetrator holds over the victim. When he’s holding her down on a bed with a knife to her throat telling her to sing for her life, he’s still getting a similar gratification

Being drunk does not justify what Sandor did to Sansa

If you ship those two you have to look at the fact that you ship a child with a grown man who considered r*ping her and accept that with fullness of chest

There’s no way around this. SanSan as a ship is vile. Sandor is not the misunderstood, sad knight who just needs to be “saved”. He’s a brutal and savage man who is attracted to little girls (at least one).

And btw if you are angry that Jorah is a creep to Dany then you gotta carry that energy for Sandor and Sansa. Because regardless of how you may feel about either character, both are literal girls who are victims of grown men.

[littlebird-whitewolf]

rant incoming!

sandor: you’ve changed, little bird. none if it would’ve happened if you’d left king’s landing with me. no little finger, no ramsay, none of it.

sansa: without little finger and ramsay and the rest, i would’ve stayed a little bird all my life.

let’s not forget the hound had just before this brought up her violent rape as if mocking her or rubbing it in her face. with no verbal rebuttal from her about that. it left such a sour taste in my mouth when i watched it

it’s as if he’s mad at her for not having responded to his lust for her with love and trust when she was a CHILD being held hostage by her family’s enemy who had killed her father and brother, and as if he hadn’t been serving said family the whole time

out of the many things i didn't like about how the writers ruined the last season, this one stands out the most- being one that still boggles my mind (including a sansa gif because i need to see my beautiful girl and calm down)

them making sansa casually dismiss her horrific past and basically absolving her abusers by saying that. and it's so tiring because sansa h@ters will always bring up how she was an outsider to the starks because she "betrayed" her family and also "sucks because she's not a tomboy like arya or has dragons like d@nny" BUt the moment you bring up the fact that she was also a literal child, held hostage and abused for years, that all the men in her life were abusers, even the "kinder" ones because they wanted something from her, they first of all dismiss all that by denying that their fav male characters (tyrion, sandor) are not pr3dators and secondly, saying her abuse is in the past and doesn't matter anyway because she said herself that "without ... and all the rest, [she] would have remained a little bird all [her] life"

it just leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

[muiltifandomnerd]

Don’t forget about people shipping Sansa with Sandor.

people ship khal drogo and jorah with dany and tyrion with sansa… HELLO! CHRIS HANSEN!

[catofoldstones]

extremely rare asoiaf pinterest W

[inwinterhell]

"Where are your courtesies, Sansa? I swear, of late, you've been near as bad as your sister."

Love how Arya just continues the conversation like nothing happened, like she's used to being called the bad child while she's literally sitting right there. I know it's not much compared to what she goes through later, but it's really sad how Arya gets it ingrained in her that she's "the bad one" even before becoming a child soldier. Getting labeled like that is a pretty powerful thing, especially at her age.

[amaltheas-garden]

nothing will ever convince me sansan shippers actually like Sansa, and I get especially peeved when people act like its already canon and that Jonsas are the problem for wanting her to be with a guy who is nice. The bar is in hell.

"And the little bird, your pretty sister, I stood there in my white cloak and let them beat her. I took the bloody song, she never gave it. I meant to take her too. I should have. I should have fucked her bloody and ripped her heart out before leaving her for that dwarf." -Arya XIII, ASoS

"If I could show her Winterfell . . . give her a flower from the glass gardens, feast her in the Great Hall, and show her the stone kings on their thrones. We could bathe in the hot pools, and love beneath the heart tree while the old gods watched over us." -Jon V, ASoS

[the--pipsqueak--alchemist]

Sometimes I think about parallels and story beats in ASOIAF and it makes me want to pull my hear

A princess stuck in the tower where a clegane breaks into. One doesn't survive and the other survives by the skin of her teeth.

One clegane is pushed to remember his humanity and it makes him ashamed of what he was planning on doing. The other has no qualms or hesitation.

Sansa being haunted by Lyanna and Elia. Barely escaping their fate. Because there's no brother coming to take her home, no brother dying to avenge her.

So she becomes her own Brother in a way to go back home.

[la-mannakana]

Arya: Why should I give you mercy? Do you really think killing you would solve all my problems? Make your life easier? THINK, HOUND! THINK!

Sandor: *sigh* Oh bugger me...

*******

Based on the "Think, Mark" meme from the show Invincible.

[agentrouka-blog]

There is a general speculation in fandom that Sandor is on redemption arc during his time at Quite Isle and he will going to return as Sansa champion/knight. The thing is Hound has chance to become the knight of Sansa and later Arya but he messed it up with his toxicity and violence. Instead of protecting the people who couldn't protect themselves he take out his anger on defenseless people. He gave Sansa massive trauma and pushed Arya more towards violence. He will never be Sansa or Arya's knight.

Yeah. This is one of those instances where people mistake the main characters for props in the arc of a tertiary villain. Whose main relationship in the books is not with either Stark girl but his own older brother. Whose death is what actually motivated his time-out on the Quiet Isle.

They spent these scenes looking at the guy instead of the girl and they ended up thinking it's about him, not about her. What can the guy's "redemption" add to their arcs that is not already earmarked for Brienne of Tarth?

Nothing. And that's why this is not a thing that will happen.

[silverflameataraxia]

She hated the way he talked, always so harsh and angry. "Does it give you joy to scare people?"

- Sansa IV, ACoK

I'm sorry, but what? Sansa hates how Sandor is always so harsh and angry?

Let's give a brief recap of just one of Sansa's interactions with Arya, shall we?

It was running down her nose and stinging her eyes. Sansa wiped it away with a napkin. When she saw what the fruit in her lap had done to her beautiful ivory silk dress, she shrieked again. "They should have killed you instead of Lady!"

Sansa threw her head back in disdain. "You?" You couldn't sew a dress fit to clean the pigsties."

"It won't be so bad, Sansa," Arya said. "We're going to sail on a galley. It will be an adventure, and then we'll be with Bran and Robb again, and Old Nan and Hodor and the rest." She touched her on the arm.

"Hodor!" Sansa yelled. "You ought to marry Hodor, you're just like him, stupid, and hairy and ugly!" She wrenched away from her sister's hand, stormed into her bedchamber, and barred the door behind her.

And this brief moment between the sisters doesn't even compare to the years of Sansa calling Arya ugly and stupid, being ashamed of her appearance, wishing she was a bastard like Jon, wishing Sansa could have someone else as her sister, and looking down on Arya's friends because they're commoners.

[the-way-astray]

VOTE SANDOR!!!! you don’t get more pathetic than being a bodyguard that can’t protect your charge at all . . . the neverseen keep sneaking into havenfield and it’s not even fucking hard for them even in the latest books. and he’s unconventionally attractive. fantastic sexyman material

[g0lightly]

daenerys’ relationship to jorah mirrors sansa’s relationship to sandor (ft. jon and brienne as their younger foils)

disclaimer: sandor has his issues but i still think he is still a FAR better person than jorah. characters mirroring each other does not mean they are the same - that would be boring! i have also written about sandor’s connection to dany’s relationship with barristan, which connects back to brienne and sansa as well. to be clear, i do actually like sandor as a character and find his relationship to sansa to be rich with meaning. some of his interactions with her are predatory, however, and i have no interest in sugarcoating that. everyone should ship what they like, however this is a post that will address some ship-based ideas about sandor and sansa’s relationship i’ve come across that i find incomplete in the greater context of the story.

while i don't put it past grrm to romanticize objectively predatory dynamics such as drogo and dany, i would like to point out that once dany gains her own strength after hatching her dragons, she is able to push back on jorah (whose treatment of her is not that different from the hound's treatment of sansa) when he forcibly kisses her. her newfound power in the world means she is able to stand up to him in a way that she was never able to stand up to drogo. just because grrm romanticizes that dynamic between drogo and dany - particularly dany's willingness to do what she needs to do to survive her marriage - does not necessarily mean this type of behavior from grown men toward teen girls is ultimately portrayed as a good thing in the text.

i think that's also true of sandor's creepier interactions with sansa. dany notes that a true knight would never kiss her without her permission as jorah did and i couldn't agree with her more. sandor may not have followed through on sexually assaulting sansa as jorah did with dany, but a true knight also would not have traumatized a 12-year-old girl to the extent that she had to make up a kiss to process being threatened with sexual assault at knifepoint by an authority figure she wanted to trust. i don’t think it’s a coincidence that sansa is having a (most likely) false memory of kissing the hound in the same book where dany deals with jorah actually kissing her.

Unbidden, her thoughts went back to the night on Balerion when the exile knight had kissed her. He should never have done that. He is thrice my age, and of too low a birth for me, and I never gave him leave. No true knight would ever kiss a queen without her leave. She had taken care never to be alone with Ser Jorah after that, keeping her handmaids with her aboard ship, and sometimes her bloodriders. He wants to kiss me again, I see it in his eyes. What Dany wanted she could not begin to say, but Jorah's kiss had woken something in her, something that had been sleeping since Khal Drogo died. Lying abed in her narrow bunk, she found herself wondering how it would be to have a man squeezed in beside her in place of her handmaid, and the thought was more exciting than it should have been. Sometimes she would close her eyes and dream of him, but it was never Jorah Mormont she dreamed of; her lover was always younger and more comely, though his face remained a shifting shadow. - Daenerys II, A Storm of Swords

as we see with drogo and dany or even this instance with jorah, it is not uncharacteristic of grrm to play with the romantic aspects of a situation that is ultimately quite disturbing and upsetting. for this reason, i think that some shippers miss the broader context in which some of the more "romantic" moments between sandor and sansa exist. yes, they get moments involving classic romance tropes like a big strong man carrying a helpless damsel in distress. but imo readers miss the full picture if they only focus on that one element of their interactions. maybe these things could be romantic between two people closer in age, but that's not what's happening. much like sansa's overall experience in king's landing, it's a juxtaposition of what is supposed to be romantic with what is in fact horrifying.

both daenerys and sansa have complicated feelings as a result of these boundary-breaking encounters with men who are supposed to protect them. daenerys, being a few crucial years older with more life experience and power than sansa, is better-equipped to process what happened than she was at the time of her marriage to drogo. i also think it’s worth noting that sansa is 13 by the time of the below quote from ASOS, the same age daenerys was when she married drogo. like 13-year-old dany, i think that sansa has to romanticize what happened with sandor in order to process it and still survive a situation where she must rely on other predatory men — tyrion, dontos, littlefinger — for safety. 

That night Sansa scarcely slept at all, but tossed and turned just as she had aboard the Merling King. She dreamt of Joffrey dying, but as he clawed at his throat and the blood ran down across his fingers she saw with horror that it was her brother Robb. And she dreamed of her wedding night too, of Tyrion's eyes devouring her as she undressed. Only then he was bigger than Tyrion had any right to be, and when he climbed into the bed his face was scarred only on one side. "I'll have a song from you," he rasped, and Sansa woke and found the old blind dog beside her once again. "I wish that you were Lady," she said. - A Storm of Swords, Sansa VI

nothing about sansa’s dream sounds pleasant. in fact, it’s a nightmare amid a sleepless night. i didn’t highlight the section about the “younger and more comely” lover whose face remains “a shifting shadow” because i think that tyrion turning into sandor is a parallel to that — if anything, i think the version of sandor that sansa sees in her nightmare is a foil to dany’s shadow dream lover. also, sandor is older than tyrion so that comparison doesn't work imo. i think it goes to show that dany is at least capable of imagining something better. sansa, having just escaped one place where she was abused and treated as a pawn for another place where she will be abused and treated as a pawn, is not.

now, it’s commonly believed among snowstorm shippers that jon snow is the comely stranger of dany’s dreams. i think it’s especially interesting to consider in the context of jorah mormont being the person who sets this off. jorah is a northerner like jon, who wields the valyrian steel sword that was meant for jorah. just because there is something about jorah’s unwanted advances that some part of dany may be drawn to does not mean that she wants to be with him romantically. it sparks something in her, but it also leads her to recognize that she wants someone who can be more of an equal to her. 

i think the same is true about sansa’s thoughts about sandor kissing her. the old blind dog who sleeps next to sansa seems to be connected to the hound; she calls him a “sad old hound,” earlier in the chapter right after wondering if sandor clegane would care to learn that joffrey was killed. like dany noting that jorah is thrice her age, 11-year-old sansa in AGOT called the 22-year-old beric dondarrion “awfully old,” so at 29 or 30 sandor is old in sansa’s eyes and nearly thrice her age when she first meets him. to me, s*nsan happening would be tragic because it means sansa never has the power to stand up for herself against a lecherous older man as dany did with jorah.

now this is a bit speculative. i believe that sansa wishing for lady instead of the sad old hound at her side is her equivalent of dany’s shifting shadow lover (if she has an equivalent of this at all). i’ve often said that i believe brienne/sansa would be another snowstorm within the fandom if it wasn’t for heteronormativity because the two are so closely linked in the text despite never meeting. brienne is certainly younger than the hound and more comely in terms of her inner beauty. they’re also much closer in age than some fans realize due to gwendolyn christie’s casting in GOT; brienne is two years younger than theon and several years younger than the “awfully old” beric dondarrion. i think sansa is too young to ship with anyone at her canon age, however i will always wonder if brienne rescuing sansa after the originally-planned five year gap after ASOS could have been romantic. 

whether or not brienne and sansa’s future relationship is ever romantic in the canon timeline, i believe that brienne is sansa’s true knight and soulmate even if that is only ever true in a platonic sense. sansa wishing for lady instead of the old, sad, male hound reminds me of the fact that the hound’s lady foil is brienne. like sandor, brienne holds the ideals of true knighthood closely but does not resemble the knights of songs and legends. in AFFC and her brief appearance with ADWD, brienne’s physical resemblance to sandor becomes even more striking – half her face is now badly scarred and jaime notes that she looks ten years older, which means she looks to be around the same age as sandor. even before this, she is likened to the Hound (and hounds/dogs in general) by Jaime twice in his first POV chapter.

"What do you care what a monster calls you?" "My name is Brienne," she repeated, dogged as a hound. - Jaime I, A Storm of Swords

"You are under my protection," she said, her voice so thick with anger that it was almost a growl. He had to laugh at such fierceness. She's the Hound with teats, he thought. Or would be, if she had any teats to speak of. - Jaime I, A Storm of Swords

brienne spends her chapters in AFFC haunted by the hound (actually rorge in his helm) and the threat of sexual assault as she searches for sansa. in what may be her most iconic moment in the series, brienne slays rorge in a seven-against-one fight while defending orphans against her own would-be rapist who bears the hound’s helm. after killing “the hound,” biter leaves brienne disfigured when he bites off part of her cheek. when brienne wakes in the hollow hill, we learn that lem lemoncloak — who is also quite tall and scarred — took the hound’s helm and identity from rorge after brienne killed him. like sandor and brienne, it’s possible that lem was once a knight of the kingsguard; perhaps brienne will be the next tall, scarred ex-kingsguard to bear the hound’s helm and identity. instead of being someone who threatens young girls with sexual assault, however, brienne is someone who protects them against it.

brienne also bears some (non-physical) resemblance to jonquil darke, who came into the service of queen alysanne targaryen because she needed someone who could be at her side in women-only spaces after she was nearly assassinated the (aptly-named) jonquil’s pool. more than a century later, brienne and jaime find jonquil’s pool full of corpses amid war as they journey to king’s landing to retrieve sansa in ASOS. of course, the pool is so named because it is where florian the fool first saw jonquil. meanwhile, sansa is in king’s landing calling dontos her florian after praying for a true knight and friend in the godswood back in ACOK. 

though it may seem as though dontos or sandor may be the answer to sansa’s prayer because they each appear later in that chapter, i believe that catelyn sending brienne to retrieve sansa is indeed the answer to her prayer. like lady the direwolf — in her place, almost, seeing as catelyn was so insistent about the direwolves protecting her children — this would mean that brienne was sent to protect sansa by the old gods. perhaps sansa wishing that the old male hound at her side was lady also reflects the fact that she would do better with a jonquil at her side than a florian.

[grey-joys]

I know I want Sansa to go feral (as is her right at this point holy shit) but I’m not sure that would fulfill the point of her character. I can’t really imagine a world where Sansa’s kindness and amazing ability to forgive those who wronged her doesn’t win out (even begrudgingly so). Like there’s a reason she has so much connection to the Mother.

Gentle Mother, Font of Mercy

Soothe the wrath and tame the fury, teach us all a kinder way

Basically, I just want Cersei, the Hound, and Littlefinger to be wrong.

[catofoldstones]

Sansa Stark whenever the psycho bitch who killed her father or the next top contenders for Westeros’ most traumatised unaware pedophiles try to info dump & project their secrets/plans/opinions on her

[fatum679]

Aemond and Criston meet with the madame at the brothel (Script's Version) : r/HouseOfTheDragon (reddit.com) I'm legit confused now. So, in season one, Aemond is clearly repulsed by the Madam, but in season 2, she's his comfort person?

I think if this is true, it completely changes Aemond as a character and makes him a different person. This is no longer Aemond s1

This is complete bullshit. I hope this is still fake. If he cries over Luke's death, I'll f*ck this show. Aemond should remember how they pulled his eyeball out of his skull and that Rhaenyra wanted to torture him.

Sandor did not forgive his brother and wanted him d*ad, although his eyes were intact and there was a burn on his face.

Aemond decided to go to a whore to get some comfort...what the hell 🤡🥴

It looks like Aemond can't take responsibility for what he did, even if it was mansl*ughter. Recognize that there was a reason for hatred and revenge for all the years of living with one eye and the accompanying physical and mental suffering.

I just hope it won't be that bad when I watch s2 in full.

I'm just against everyone TB and TG who support this sh*t💀

He was 13 and she was 30!!!🤮🤡

He was a kid...😢😭

It's worth thanking Aegon for being "a good brother"☠

[maidragoste]

I'M READING A JONSA FIC AND I STAYED LIKE "WHAT?????" BECAUSE JON AND SANSA NAME THEIR CHILDREN SANDOR AND YGRITTE 😭😭😭

THIS IS A CRIME. WHY WOULD YOU MAKE JONSA NAME THEIR CHILDREN LIKE THAT 😭😭😭