#androphilic men

[reecey9o5]

As Crypto Bros are to MLM Huns, AI Bros are to Astrology Girlies.

Discuss.

[rgbfall]

reading a book about gay science, please dear god why did it call androphillic transwomen "homosexual"

[dragonstailbutch]

Hey sorry i am trying to like. find examples of what you mean when you talk about mra stuff and (trans)misogyny in forcemasc content and tumblr search has betrayed me once again, can you explain?

(sorry I normally wouldn't ask but I wanna make sure I'm not perpetuating anything!! Also fucking tumblr search!!! it is ridiculous!)

so ive been sitting on this ask for months since ive got it. i want to do it justice and try to take it at face value that its being honest in asking.

The thing is, theres this trend and a weird amount of effort to be like force femme, to be forceful and like its something to fearful of and give in to. But we cant do that, cause all that does is reinforce the idea that being a man is a toxic thing. I saw this post the other day where a transman talked about like, the whole "raised as a weapon" thing, the violence and horror of being a man and raised that way versus how they felt growng into it as a transman. How they wanted to reclaim that phrase or something? i could be misremembering.

But that was never the intent of forcemasc. It wasnt actually about being a dude, literally *forcing* someone who was unwilling into masculinity, none of the posts that i made that started the community (and yes i, a transfem butch woman, started and made this community and some of yall need to get over yourselves) were ever about that, it was intended to be a soft mimic or even a call to forcefemme.

i was all about making it soft and tender for a reason, cause if i didnt i was only reinforcing the toxic masculinity narrative, "men fighting in the mud" "men are dominant and cool" " to be a man is to be forced into masculinity and to be disgusted with the feminine" or whatever. When masculinity isnt about just men, and being butch isnt just being masculine. masculinity should also be sensitivity, not domination. i wanted it to be better, show a better side of what masculinity could be, what being butch is.

Ive spoken before a bit too, about the tags people used and added to forcemasc, and really maybe i was wrong in ever naming it forcemasc. people used and still use tags like autoandrophilia, autoandrophile, androphile, autogynephilia, androphilia, and autogynephile. Ive seen so many people with urls and tags and posts calling themselves transandrobros, literally calling themselves MRAs, as if that was something to be proud of, as if they dont understand that they arent fighting for their and our rights, they're fighting for cis-mens rights by using those names and terms, not transmascs/transmens rights. I can understand ignorance, but weve talked about how the words you use have history, especially those like the tags i mentioned and androphilia and androphobia and others, all of them have roots in deeeeeeeply misogynistic and transphobic people and history.

Literally all of these are awful and are phrases that arent and wont be reclaimed because theyre history is one of pain and hurting trans people, one of coercive 'help', literal forced detransitioning and reinforcement of MRA and terf narrative that men are both good and the worst creature alive and that to be a woman is to be disgusting and the purest thing all at once. That to be a transwoman is sick and we shouldnt be trusted.

Im trying to be very kind, not scream and rage, not because i dont desperately want to, but because if i do, as a butch transwoman, ESPECIALLY cause i claim being butch, people wont listen to me no matter how much of what i say is meaningful. one of the reasons why im doing this NO, instead of in anothr day or two, is that im coming to terms with the fact that the situation will just get qorse, not better without words.

Part of why im still sane is that ive gotten a couple asks here and there about how my posts and creation of the community has helped them and its so wonderful to see that, genuinely so amazing to see people recontextualize and love themselves. its wonderful and im so fucking happy about it.

i personally made this space so i could love myself, who i am as a trans person and my body, and i knew that other people needed and wanted that for themselves too and i wanted to help, share this love with more people. That to be hairy and chubby and masculine and butch was a nice thing. But to me it feels like it was coerced into being a thing for Men. A thing no longer for me or people like me who share the butch culture and name to no longer enjoy cause people unfamiliar with kink and tran history have decided that masculinity and butchness are the exact same thing. Id say people should go be a bear, but you wont learn their culture either and thats cruel and insulting to bears.

We deserve better You deserve better. Stop falling for the lies and hate. We beg you

[ineffable-opinions]

MAME & BL Literacies (Part 4)

Other parts: Part 1 | Part 2 | Part 3

Contents:

MAME’s queer characters and their lives

Fetishization of queer men and profiting off LGBT community

Why other queer genres like gei comi struggle to get live action adaptation?

(bonus) What Did You Eat Yesterday sexy times

BL and rape culture

Everyday ethnocentrism & BL

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This is the last part of this essay series. In this part, I want to discuss the response this review of TharnType by @waitmyturtles generated. As always, corrections and criticisms are welcome.

-

Here are the points @solitaryandwandering raised:

1. fans will get SO rabid for MAME’s stuff yet resist tuning in for more queer-friendly Taiwanese BL or lower heat fare

I think that the BL MAME creates is "queer-friendly". Moreover, her BL focuses on the intersection of queerness with local forms of gender, patriarchy & heterosexism, class, race, skin color, age, employment, location & regionalism, abilities and disabilities, education, health conditions and access to medical care, urban-rural divide, migrant status, culture, etc.

MAME's BL have aspects of Thai queer culture and praxis that are otherwise overlooked. Here's an example.

Through Techno’s interaction with Tharn in episode 1 of TharnType, MAME highlights an important issue: invisibility of androphilic “man”. Techno comments that Tharn is the first masculine presenting androphilic male he has met, even though he has several queer friends.

This is in part due to skewed presence of androphilic male characters in mainstream media. In Thai soap operas and movies, androphilic men are 'presented as effeminate, overreactive, with a passionate but unrequited interest in men'.

Countering this perception is the hegemony of masculine aesthetics in urban Thailand’s queer culture. 'The English word “man” has been borrowed into Thai gay-speak to denote acting in a masculine way. Man describes a masculine presentation of either gay-identified or heterosexual males and contrasts with the Thai term phu-chai, which also translates as “man” but is used in the specific sense of denoting the gender role of a heterosexually identified male.

'Many Thai gays believe that effeminate gay men, or gay sao, will experience discrimination and prejudice because of their feminine characteristics and behaviours. Thai gays also think that performing gender-normative forms of manhood are useful in establishing sexual and romantic relations with other gays. These expectations are associated with the culture of images, known in Thai as phap-phot, by which many homosexual men feel compelled to act in accord with normative male gender roles.'

This is in contrast to Techno’s queer friends who blur the lines between the masculine and feminine domains. His use of the word kathoey is case in point.

Moreover, the need for social conformity for Thai gays in terms of their gender performance is an urban phenomenon. Ethnographic study by Wijngaarden traced the rapid adoption of more masculine gender performance by gay men who moved from rural setting to urban for the purpose of education and employment. Ambiguity in gender performance is more accepted in rural setting where there is gender-based understandings of homosexuality. Also, gay dating scene in urban areas seem to assign value to masculine presentation.

source

I don't really know what @solitaryandwandering mean by "queer-friendly" in the context of Taiwanese BL.

Support of fu-people (BL fans) for queer works in Taiwan is well-known. When the play 《愛情生活》 Life of Love by Xu ZhengPing was staged, they had BL version shows too.

The play has a short film adaptation which is available for free on GagaOOLala.

Fu-people have also shown their support for series like Breakfast by 想再見你.

-

@solitaryandwandering gave valuable response to this post which I am adding below.

I had to go back and re-read what I said in the post for more context. I think though we may disagree on a couple points (what people consider "queer-friendly" is somewhat subjective) your criticisms are totally valid. I think in my first point I was making a really broad generalization and my description of overall Taiwanese BL as being "more" queer-friendly largely rings false to me now. I think what I was frustrated with was more with what I've seen of BL fandom's response to the series and other works. The popularity of high heat and "problematic" themes (I'm using that pretty liberally) like abusive relationships or rape is pretty massive in comparison to Taiwanese stuff in general. But that's not to say Taiwanese stuff don't utilize the same tropes or themes. Hence why I think my comparison wasn't accurate.

In comparing Taiwanese BL I had seen at the time and MAME's stuff (specifically TharnType) I probably felt that Taiwanese BL didn't so heavily utilize themes which made me uncomfortable or angry at the way MAME was writing it. And I still do largely think that at least for her earlier stuff MAME needed to work on her characters and plots. I did not see Tharn or Type or the other characters or the story as appealing or positive representations of… anything. In my view at the time Taiwanese BL liked to play with similar themes but still (mostly) didn't leave me with a bad taste in my mouth. I don't really agree with what I think was a bit of a limited view at the time. Reading your post has given me a bit of a different perspective, too.

I don't think everyone making Taiwanese BL particularly cares about the response queer fans have haha. And MAME has shown she does, at least from my perspective.

And again lumping an entire country's slant on the genre against MAME's creations is a bit disingenuous. So I appreciate you criticizing that.

And I don't inherently think lower heat stuff is inherently more queer-friendly of course - queer people fuck! Queer people can do terrible things! But the gulf of popularity between high heat stuff versus lower heat at least in international online spaces is pretty large. That concerns me for the reasons I stated in my comments - why is fandom more eager to engage with one over the other? Do these fans see queer men as people or as things to fetishize? And how does MAME's writing encourage or discourage those damaging readings? Largely I think what I was referencing in my response was fandom response rather than what creators at large do.

I think we may disagree on how effectively MAME writes her shows but I do think my perspective on her as a creator has changed quite a lot. Her writing certainly has with each show. It's important to interrogate my own ethnocentrism as you point out in your post. Acting like I'm the arbiter of "good queerness" in stories just because I'm queer is not a practice I want to encourage.

and yes, I do think there is quite a bit of critical consumption of BL, and it has only been growing! I was concerned about those who do not critically consume, a more direct criticism.

But I did communicate it as a large generalization… One of the reasons why my response to stuff like TharnType is this way is because I have a background in domestic violence prevention, so the lens I look at that kind of material through is highly critical. But it is also a white American lens.

-

And here is my contribution to that discussion. I am very grateful for to @solitaryandwandering for engaging with this post.

What each think as “queer-friendly” is subjective. I wanted to be clear about what I thought as queer (since LGBT+ form is a little too narrow from my perspective). I wanted to place BL in the context of Taiwanese tongzhi (queer) culture and wanted to showcase the similarities and their connection. Life of Love by Xu ZhengPing, the tongzhi work I mentioned, has both "high heat" and "problematic" themes (it deals with infidelity) while addressing what it means to be tongzhi in post-marriage equality era. The BL versions’ ad is very funny. Please check out that link if you haven’t.

About abusive themes in BL, I really wish BL audience will pay attention to media consumed by queer people that are made by queer people in BL producing countries and realize how meek MAME is in comparison, both in terms of influence as well as themes. That is why brought up erotic treatment of rape aka rape for titillation – rare in BL but very common & celebrated in queer content from the region such as gei comi and gay pinku cinema. I think that answers the issues you raised – popularity of high heat stuff, queer men as fetish and damage it causes. I have been consuming gei comi and BL for years and when the live action boom happened, I was hopeful that gei comi will also start getting live action adaptation. Instead, there was a deluge of sweet BL and concerns about damage anything problematic can cause, not to mention the kind of critique authors as mild as MAME was getting. When female BL creators were getting bashed (not only about live action but also about comics and novels), I thought the criticisms would extend to gei comi. I was confused when it didn’t. I was even more confused when it seemed like no one was ever mentioning gei comi. It was as though those who were criticizing BL creators don’t know about gei comi.

To be honest, I don’t really know what damage everyone is talking about even now. I mean, what’s the basis of those claims? Gei comi always had those themes, a great deal more than BL. What harm did it ever perpetuate? Whom did it harm? I couldn’t find any evidence (empirical or anecdotal) no matter how I searched. (I will be grateful if you can direct me towards some research or something on the matter.)

Only damage that I know of is linked to the tangible impact of gei comi on the popularity of hairy, gachimuchi aesthetics of queer men [and associated physical manifestations of protest hypermasculinity] in East Asia that I discussed in part 2 of this essay series [as well as in my post on masculinities with special focus on Chinese androphilic men]. This is one area I think a lot of skinny queer men in East Asia would have found themselves at a loss. So I think BL exclusively having skinny dudes is a good thing.

I know that I can wish all I want but audience won’t accept live adaption of something like Fisherman’s Lodge much less Pride (my introduction to the genre and the reason why I fell in love with it). My Brother’s Husband sort of solidified my belief. Then Sei no Gekiyaku [Dangerous Drug of Sex] live action happened, and my worlds collided. All of a sudden androphilic men were discussing a BL like never before. It was such a hit on Netflix Japan. That’s when I discovered The Shortest Distance Is Round and then its sequels. By then it was clear that there is escaping the difference in wavelength.

I would like to make a small addition in light of Heavens x Candy (a 2024 Japanese BL movie, pinku adjacent that is available for streaming on Gagaoolala).

I now have greater hope for "hard" BL and even gei comi getting live action adaptation from OP Pictures (albeit without hairy, gachimuchi aesthetics. I mean the only actor doing such roles in BL is Kaji Masaki who acted in both KabeKoji and Smells like Green Spirit.) I plan to do a longer post on Heavens x Candy when I get time to rewatch it.

2. Fetishization of queer men in yaoi

By that standard, is Minamoto Kazuki fetishizing straight women through his works?

source

Minamoto Kazuki is a gay mangaka who creates straight romance and smut.

Arguably, his most famous manga, at least in BL fandom, is Wall Circle’s Doujin Artist Nekoyashiki-Kun’s Desire for Recognition Grows which got live action adaptation: KabeKoji in 2022.

Apart from creating commercial BL and yaoi (self-published BL like the ones in the image given above), he has also authored an autobiographical work titled Shoujo Manga Artist Minamoto-San Comes Out and a manga exploring queer life and homophobia titled The Gay Who Turned Kaiju.

Moreover, many scholars, mangaka, fans, etc. from Asia and elsewhere have already spoken/written plenty about the issue of fetishization. Here's a compilation of resources.

3. zero critical consumption and leveraging of abusive concepts

I wonder why it is assumed that BL is consumed without critical thinking. It is true that BL, especially MAME's BL, are not didactic. TharnType is a BL with odo (royal road) narrative progression. It is not one of the sweet BL that GMMTV produces. Due to a general lack of BL literacies, there are off-the-mark expectations associated with BL, particularly Thai BL. Hence, odo BL seems to violate a lot of these misguided expectations.

TharnType is a well-done odo BL, in my opinion. "Leveraging of abusive concepts" is not a failure but a feature.

When it comes to depiction of abuse, there are those who think that it always gives the wrong message. There are variety in opinions on what is the right way to go about it. BL being an accommodating genre has space for all sorts of treatment. Even in live action, there is good variety in terms of how the theme is treated. But nothing is everyone’s cup of tea. This being the case it is understandable if someone like how MAME handles abuse, just as it is understandable if someone doesn't.

Assuming that fans don't engage critically with the theme and are mindlessly consuming it, have the implication of infantilizing the audience - as though they are without faculties of discretion and are incapable of making judgements. It also has the added implication of demonizing all media concerning queer people that deals with abuse. If MAME’s approach is deemed “unsafe” for queer population, based on that judgement, where does BL and gei comi that offer erotic treatment of abuse fall? What about queer people producing and consuming them?

That brings me to the points @nieves-de-sugui has raised.

4. how much all of these tropes where used (and still are). I believe that when things are made for tv they should take all the things you mentioned into account more than they do.

I believe that makers of live action queer content are very cautious. Thanks to that we are yet to get live action adaptation of any gei comi.

I have seen mainstream media ignore Gengoroh Tagame (probably the most popular gay mangaka creating content aimed at androphilic men) and his works for years in spite of his tangible influence on East Asian queer men. And then suddenly creating a live action adaptation of his all-ages manga My Brother’s Husband.

Who will dare to adapt his works Gunji or Fisherman’s Lodge or Pride? How can we show rape, trauma and taboo involving queer people on screen? What message will it give to the queer population? To the non-queer population?

A scene from Fisherman’s Lodge. Image courtesy of @finalatomicbuster.

If MAME was not involved in producing her BL, it is doubtful if it would have ever happened the way it did. Almost all BL adaptation is a censored adaptation, with notable exceptions like Sei no Gekiyaku. Recently, 25 Ji, Akasaka de (2024) removed complicated sexual content (including a dub-con episode) from the volume 1 of the manga, which was critical to the story and the couple’s development, in adaptation. Sukiyanen Kedo Do Yaro ka (2024) went as far as removing the more sexual second couple from the live action adaptation probably because makers thought it was better not to go anywhere near cruelty.

The first ever anime adaptation of a gei comi, Shin Yaranai ka based on Junichi Yamakawa's Kuso Miso Technique, is *sigh* disappointing to say the least.

I wanted to quickly mention What Did You Eat Yesterday yaoi version since @waitmyturtles mentioned the series.

5. What Did You Eat Yesterday

I want to highlight that What Did You Eat Yesterday was not a BL in publication. It was published in Morning, a conservative magazine for middle-aged men. This is what got a live action adaptation.

Fumi Yoshinaga has created a proper BL doujin series that includes content that couldn't be part of publication in Morning.

Here are some panels from the two latest volumes of the yaoi. I wonder if audience would have had the same impression of the show if they had incorporated the doujin bits too.

6. One piece of the puzzle that's missing here is Thai rape culture that blankets all of their society.

This is an important point @yousaygoodbyeandisay raised and it applies not just to Thailand.

Sexual assault as a theme in BL, handled in a myriad of ways, has been the case since the inception of the genre. I have discussed the history in the context of Japan here.

It was during the publication of JUNE magazine that the importance of depiction of sexual assault in BL became clear to the editor through response letters from readers.

June is a place of therapistic rehabilitation for those women who had experiences of mental and physical abuses as a female. Mr. Sagawa said that he cannot ignore that there are not a few readers who had such experiences during their childhood.

source

MAME studied BL and its production academically (you can find her research output by searching her name: อรวรรณ วิชญวรรณกุล) before she entered live action production. She not only know what she is writing/creating but also is willing to deal with difficult themes without taking sweet, fable-like route.

Now onto the points @mikuni14 raised.

7. my shock seeing so much SA related stuff (the show covered just about every problematic sex thing there is, and finally forgave the heinous criminal instead of putting him in jail. I don't know how MAME can create for example AePete and also somany vile things

For those who don’t know, MAME is a unique Thai BL creator. Thai BL creators on average lack BL literacies for various reasons. MAME is one of the exceptions. This is because:

she is a BL author & hence, one of the creators of BL literacies

she studied BL and its production academically [you can find her research output by searching her name: อรวรรณ วิชญวรรณกุล]

then she started producing live action BL

In an industry which is lacking in BL literacies, what she brings to the table is fu-culture (BL fan culture) in all its glory. Unfortunately, the live action audience who are fans of sweet BL, have a hard time adjusting.

Here are some typical narrative progressions for a (Japanese) BL:

あまあま – sweet

ユニーク – unique

シリアス – serious

邪道 – evil road (jadō)

王道 - royal road (odo)

Any theme/one-line plot can choose to take any of these narrative progressions. Moreover, Thai BL usually originates online which allows for innovation.

MAME employs different narrative progressions for different ships. AePete follows the typical sweet BL progression. KengklaTechno follows jado and TharnType odo.

TarTum is a sweet BL, complicated by them being step-brothers. While their pairing is barely on odo, Tum as a character has a complicated odo progression within their ship.

Since TharnType is an odo BL all wrong-doings are not punished. Take for example KinnPorsche, another odo BL, where the ending can’t be 'organized crime gets the main characters in jail'. In odo BL involving crime, most of the victims are usually cannon fodders. So, characters are not bothered much by the crime. But in MAME's universe, Tum is an important character, someone designed to make audience root for him. Hence the audience can’t dismiss the crimes against him. It is not wrong to want the narrative to have Lhong jailed. If TharnType was a sweet BL, it would have gone there.

8. selective memory

Selective memory is indicative of preferences and it helps to fine tune BL consumption. MAME's storytelling incorporates diverse elements. Those who enjoy her works also might find that there something or the other that isn't to their taste. This is an important part of BL literacies.

I enjoy dangerous characterizations over subdued ones and prefer a meriba more than a happy ending. While there are plenty of BL media with those, they are super rare in live action. So, I appreciate MAME for taking into account fans who want something different from sweet BL.

Here are the points @bengiyo raised:

9. What Did You Eat Yesterday v/s Old Fashion Cupcake

This has nothing to do with MAME but has to do with BL literacies more generally. Old Fashion Cupcake is more appealing to BL fans because it is a BL and hence not sanitized to continue run on a conservative magazine. So, it permeates moe (affect). Moreover, creators of Old Fashion Cupcake are better informed than creators of What Did You Eat Yesterday in terms of BL literacies. So, the direction and acting works better in the former than the latter.

9. The Effect feeling like the first huge volley leveled at BL from within the genre.

I am always amazed at the takes on the Effect. Somehow it is assumed to be a critique of BL genre. That's not the case. The Effect is a proper jado BL.

What audience are picking up on is the 'I can do it better' spirit that motivates a lot of BL creation. It is natural for audience to feel like the depiction of complex themes, such as sexual abuse, bullying, delinquency, identity theft, murder, infidelity, pregnancy, etc. are not dealt with well. Creating BL that fits one's taste better is one way authors and artists go about addressing the issue. That is how we end up with same theme dealt with in numerous ways. When that expands, we end up with sub-genres and BL categories.

Jado BL are rare, particularly in Thai BL.

It is difficult to sell BL with jado and other narrative progressions. It becomes even more difficult to sell branded pairings when the characters they play are not impeccable. It is unlikely that actors playing bad guys can sell products for advertisers. (Imagine the characters from The Effect being in ads together!) It is even more unlikely that fans would go broke behind wicked characters and would want to attend fan-meetings and concerts featuring them in some way.

This is also so as not to trouble the average audience’s worldview (世界観) and is clearly a low effort and low skill (in terms of BL literacies) approach. But since a lot of audience don’t appreciate villain-like characterization, it is clearly low risk, no chance of a backlash from angry audience and the best method for assured money making.

@respectthepetty has also flagged the next issue:

10. History3: Make Our Days Count.

Gays were being buried and put in prison in Taiwanese BLs in the same year it legalized marriage equality.

There is a lot of ethnocentrism in the hate that MODC gets, apart from lack of BL literacies. While I understand where that take is coming from given American media history in the context of Hayes code, AIDS crisis, etc., I wish media from elsewhere would be looked at independently.

Queer narratives everywhere have their own over-used tropes and historical issues. Malayalam media, for example, has the issue of having one of two queer characters having varathan vibe (Rosy in Ponnaranjanam, Kiran in Sancharram, Antony's boyfriend in Mumbai Police, Kiran in My Life Partner, etc.) that makes them look odd in Kerala's rurban landscape. Even Kaathaloram played into this trope. The problem is that it perpetuates the belief that queerness is an import of sorts.

Mindless application of media critique learned from the west leads to the brushing aside of pertinent issues with media of the region in favor of finding legitimacy via commonality with the west. That way we end up with crits accusing Moothon of employing bury the gay trope while ignoring that:

Moothon is a gangster action flick like Kammattippaadam

It is rare for romances irrespective of the gender of the main characters and genre of the movie to have happy ending in Malayalam. In fact, almost all great love stories in Malayalam movies are tragedies. This is unlike in Hollywood where heterosexual romances usually get happy endings.

more importantly, every queer character, including Latheef, is infused with varathan vibe.

Taiwanese BL has issues worth exploring. Issues of their own media - not varathan queer trope from Malayalam media or bury your gay trope from American media.

MODC was an dealing with well-established BL tropes (like any other show in the History franchise). It explored bereavement (a tribute to Lan Yu, first ever danmei live action adaptation) and substitute lover trope.

The series introduced a doppelgänger of Yu XiGu (Xiang HaoTing’s white moonlight), a perfect candidate for substitute lover trope. But instead of pursuing it, they subverted the trope.

History franchise, which was build to grow BL and BL literacy in Taiwan, ended up victim to prejudice since it failed to measure up to foreign standards. MODC offered something rare. The audience didn't appreciate it. They dismissed it for not measuring up to expectations colored by experiences which danmei is not connected with for historical reasons.

By that standard, would tongzhi literature from Taiwan too have to make amends for sins of the west towards its queers? Imagine stripping of death as a theme from tongzhi author Chiang-Sheng Kuo's works! Then there is also difference in how death is perceived in different societies.

Why must BL be arm-twisted to fit into norms from elsewhere and correct the wrongs of someone else?

11. BL profit off LGBT community

This is really interesting. There are many questions that I can think of that is linked to this take:

Is BL really profitable? Short answer is no. Long answer here.

Is it really LGBT community that BL profits off?

Probably not. It is moe that BL sells. That imo, is the main difference between BL and other queer genres.

Anyway, BL predates LGBT acronym. It predates de-pathologization of homosexuality in many BL creating regions. Fu-people were creating BL before mainstream media started representing queer people in media. Fu-people battled state and its censors everywhere along with queer people. Live action BL surely is commercialized. But that is capitalism reaping the dividends of decades of fu-people's labor of love.

@he-is-lightning-in-a-bottle raised the following point.

12. 2019 saw significant increase in quantity and quality of BL. Since then, live actions smoothed out the rougher edges of the source material (like what happened with Kinnporsche and Love in the Air).

While I understand the rational behind toning down dangerous characterization to appeal to the largest audience, I think that kind of censorship for commercialization limits potential of the genre. The impact is most visible in case of GMMTV BL such as Only Friend (where it could neither be sweet BL nor could it embark properly on jado).

Compare it with adaptation of the ero-BL Sei no Gekiyaku. It stayed true to the content and pushed the boundaries enough to bring about convergence between gay pinku cinema and BL. When BL is allowed to explore its potential freely, it not only imparts BL literacies but also makes it possible for other queer genres to gain new audience, which in turn encourages production houses to venture into different queer genres.

jjsanguine raised the following point.

13. I don't even hate toxic characters or plotlines, actually I love them. But like even if the characters don't know they're doing it, the show should. And it really really doesn't. And neither do the fans. Kind of alarming.

This is in relation to Lhong and San.

Lhong is a yandere in a odo BL. (for detailed discussion see Part 3) It is a matter of the world view and less about show's self-awareness (which I believe it has). If TharnType was an jado BL, Tharn could have ended up with Lhong and Type would be the stalking horse.

@jjsanguine later commented about how Lhong felt "goofy" by way of his over-the-top actions which made the show's convictions questionable.

San and Tharn's relationship was, to an extend, the most realistically depicted. I remember starting to learn about Thai queerness and realizing that a lot of elements in their relationship reads like ethnography. Consider for example Tharn being only fourteen at the time of sexual debut and San being older. This is not too different from the average age of sexual debut in Thailand. Despite it being a compoundable offense, average age of sexual debut is declining. Tharn's discovery of what he likes and dislikes and shedding cuteness (which San comments about) and adopting manliness (which Techno comments about) too is in line with what is observed among urban queer youth. Contrast this with Sky in Love in the Air whose sexual debut and exploitation are tied to his migration to urban landscape. Sky's backstory too read like ethnography and his vulnerability a reflection of the many others' in his society.

@absolutebl raised the following points:

14. Rape - as plot device - doesn't make good stories - lazy & bad writing: Feminist critique and modern narrative analysis.

Feminist and queer BL scholars from Akiko Mizoguchi to James Welker have discussed rape as a plot device in BL. Since experts have written plenty, I'll spare my effort discussing this misconception.

15. rape is an act of sexuality (or worse, sexy), it is NOT - it is an act of violence. But that is only the start to the way it’s chronically mishandled, especially in commercial fiction (of which romance makes the largest percentage). 

Akiko Mizoguchi's two decade of work have addressed this in relation to Japanese BL which I feel holds true for BL more generally. Moreover, BL is not a romance sub-genre. BL is a genre in itself. A lot of BL is romance. There is enough overlap between those genres to give the impression that BL is a romance sub-genre. But there are plenty of other works too. Like One Room Angel and Social Reform Season. Similarly, BL is not a porn sub-genre. A lot of BL is porn. But come on!

16. [MAME] produces consistent highly-profitable narratives by-and-about queer folks but utterly disingenuous to the queer experience and that defines exploitation in the ET industry... Right, just adding that yes BL does not represent (in any way) the reality of being queer in any of these countries.

I have already discussed how MAME's works are intersectional reflections of queer experience. BL has been reflecting different queer experiences in Japan even before the term boys' love emerged. But narrow, ethnocentric ideas of queerness doesn't lend itself to honest understanding of other forms and representation. Consider characters being addressed as เมีย ‘wife’. It is a Thai queer practice. One can always dismiss that since it sounds heterosexist in the culture one comes from as absolutebl does in this post. That, imo, is 'disingenuous to the queer experience' of Thai people.

The question is what are westerners missing in their own countries' queer media that they feel they must just judge everything with no care for the cultures and people producing content for themselves? Seriously, what have the westernization done to some in the audience that they emerge so desperate for queer content that they watch BL yet remain blind to the cultures (fu-culture in particular) that produce them and splooge vitriolic ethnocentrism?

-

That concludes this discourse series. I want to sincerely thank everyone who contributed to and inspired this 🙏.

Other parts: Part 1 | Part 2 | Part 3

[random-thought-depository]

Lately a lot of people on Tumblr have been dunking on a couple of articles written by young women talking about their choices to date and marry older men, or, well, really mostly people have been dunking on a couple of choice (cringe, distasteful to left/liberal sensibilities) screenshotted quotes from those articles (I confess I have not read the articles). People have explained the sentiments expressed in those quotes as thinly veiled tradcath baby factory propaganda or kink that these women aren't acknowledging as kink, but my hot take on reading them was to wonder if these women were the kind of neurodivergent people who got along a lot better with adults than with their peers when they were kids.

The specific screenshotted quotes people were dunking on very much felt like they might be what happens when an autistic girl who was proud of how much Daddy, the English teacher, and the hall monitor liked her when she was 13 (because she related to them better and they were frankly kinder to her than her modal peer and she hoped her closeness to them would earn her protection from peer abuse) becomes a twenty-something woman and takes that mindset and applies it to romance/sexuality in an androphilic direction.

Cause I was the boy version of a kid like that and I think if my life had taken a couple of different turns my twenty-something self might have married an older woman and written a cringe and mildly politically/morally suspect essay about how it's awesome and more boys my age should consider it. It'd have sounded different from the girl version, cause gender roles and relevant physical sex differences, but I could totally see it including stuff that might creep out or anger a lot of people here (e.g. suggesting that smart and intellectual older teenage and twenty-something boys might want to try dating older women because older women appreciate smart and intellectual men more, a position that version of me might have arrived at by extrapolating from a comparison of the way adults tended to react to his nerdy/bookish interests and curiosity about the world/cosmos when he was a teenager to the way his peers, very relevantly including the girls, tended to react to those traits when he was in middle school and high school).

[olivia-is-not-a-slut]

Going from a gynephilic-leaning bisexual to a neutral or androphilic-leaning bisexual (due to E) is an interesting experience! It's just been my brain slowly exaggerating the positives and glossing over the negatives of the appearences of men (and vica versa)

And that's interesting! If being attracted to a group simply enhances your attraction to them, and diminishes your attraction to other people, it implies the existence of people so hot that people are attracted to them regardless of their nomial orientation (Sigourney Weaver)

[delusional-ninjago-fangirl]

Click here for clarification

Nya 🌊🩵: Biromantic (she/he)

Lloyd🐉💚: Omnisexuell (pref fem),Demisexual (he/it)

Kai🔥❤️: Pansexuell (he/him)

Jay⚡️💙: Bisexuell, Demiboy (he/they)

Skylor 🐍💛: Bicurios (she/her)

Zane 🧊🤍: Asexuel (no reprotuctiv Organs) Gay, Panromantic, polly, Intersexual, Demiboy (he/they/it)

Cole 🪨🖤: Bisexuell [fight me], Polly (he/him)

Pixal 🔧💜: Asexuel, Panromantic, Intersexual, demigirl (any)

Harumi 🐍💚: Lesbien (she/her)

Akita 🐺♥️: Androphilic [attracted to men], Agender (any)

Vania 🪽💛: Pansexuell, Polly (she/her)

Misako 📖🩶: Pansexuell (she/her)

Garmadon 👹💜: Bisexuell, Demiromantic (he/they)

Wu📜💛: AroAce, Gynephilic [attraction to women] (he/him)

Shila[OC]🎤💙:Bisexuell, Unlabeled(she/they)

Juan[OC]📖🧡: Pollysexuell, Genderfluid (they/them/he)

Coralia[OC]🐍🩷: Abrosexuell (any)

Cho[OC]👻💚: Bisexuell, Asexuell (she/it)

Ultra violet🏍💜: Lesbien, Demigirl (she/they/it)

Killow🏍🧡: AroAce (any)

Mr E [Echo]🤖♥️: Intersexual, Demiboy (he/it)

[echofromtheabyss]

A big thing I think in how women are written in love and sex is that pre-80s female characters are actually more active, more responsive. I remember hating the messaging on tv when I hit my teens because suddenly it was like I was just supposed to sit there and do nothing, and be in my own world oblivious until some stalker noticed me.

I’m bisexual, but *for an androphile* this sucked because the only modeling you’re getting is that boys are supposed to be a passive object of admiration and maybe you will get lucky and one will notice you. You are supposed to somehow be heterosexual and yet the social messaging is that you’re not supposed to actually be attracted to men. And this was harmful downstream for me *as a bisexual* because I found out I wasn’t supposed to express attraction for women, either. Women just weren’t supposed to express attraction, period.

50s movie/tv teens at least made eyes at each other.

[jackhkeynes]

arrhenosarc "androphilic"

arrhenosarc /aˌre.noˈzark/ [ɐˈʀe.nʊˈzɐːk]

androphilic, characterised by (sexual or romantic) desire towards men or aesthetic appreciation of the male form;

(male) homoerotic, suggesting or arousing a homosexual desire between men;

(attributively) beefcake, pertaining to imagery of men presented as sexually desirable

cf. thelusarc "gynophilic, etc."

Etymology: nineteenth century coinage from Ancient Greek, originally used in artistic criticism to discuss current trends in painting and sculpture. The term derives from ἄρρην (árrhēn), Attic variant of ᾰ̓́ρσην (ársēn) "male, masculine", as well as σάρξ (sárx) "flesh, lust". Both gendered forms appear to have been coined at roughly the same time.

Gevou bro, tu's l'oc duel renent un pog arrhenosarc. /geˈvu bro | tɪz lɔk djɛl ˈre.nɛnt ɪn pɔj aˌre.noˈzark/ [gɪˈvu bʀo | tɪz lɔ djɛl ˈʀe.nɐn‿tɪm pɔj ɐˌʀe.nʊˈzɐːk] watch.out dude | 2s-be df=s.px duel make-p.prs indf bit androphilic Heads up dude, you're making this duel a bit homoerotic.

[i-am-an-androphilic-doormat]

Ghosted

Part 1

https://i-am-an-androphilic-doormat.tumblr.com/post/635727711629901824/ghosted-a-vlad-masters-x-reader-story-part-1

Part 2

https://i-am-an-androphilic-doormat.tumblr.com/post/667706669294338048/vladdy-is-daddy

Part 3

You sighed as you sat in the passenger seat, Operative K had volunteered to sit in the back with all the equipment and said he’d go ahead and get a head start on their report of the case in the computer logs. Operative O insisted he drives, when you had said you wouldn’t mind driving considering he had drove the team to the mayor’s residence, he said something along the lines that your temper contributes to how safely you drive. In other words:

He’s pretty sure if you drive, all of you would die in a car crash.

Whatever.

You still couldn’t believe that asshole was the new mayor, and the fucking nerve he had towards you. Can’t he just go back to Wisconsin in a different mansion? Sure, your men destroyed the second one unwarranted, but it’s not like he couldn’t afford a third. He owns like- four different massive companies. He has to be up to something! You just didn’t know what… yet. Oh well. You weren’t going to worry about it anymore, I mean really, what influence will he actually have on Amity Park?

————————two weeks later—————————

Vlad had just finishing delivering his address to bills he had passed concerning ghosts. That should teach Daniel Fenton a lesson as well keep that pesky Danny Phantom out of his hair. For now at least, it’s only a matter of time before he waves the white flag and gives Vlad his rightfully earned victory over this game they’ve been playing.

But in order to really put Phantom in his place, he needed to take his role in busting ghosts in this town. However, he can’t deal with these ghost problems as Plasmius as he usually would, this has to be public, so this will be a job for Masters. Therefore he won’t be able to do this alone.

The plan was to get his partner Skulker to release some low ranking ghosts into Amity Park while Vlad hires the Guys in White to catch the spectral fiends in his name. A pro he now has as mayor was having command over government funded associations.

After having his mayoral assistant arrange some things with the Guys in White and confirming their cooperation, he was now left to do the loads of paperwork… the agonizing con of being mayor and CEO of multiple companies.

The long treacherous hours as the day turned to night, sitting in his leather office seat, scribbling away sheet by sheet, square framed glasses perched on the bridge of his nose. Maddie, his cat, was curled up comfortably on the top of her cat tree.

Vlad sighed taking a moment to look at the time: 8:39 P.M. He has to greet the Guys in White at 9 for their first ghost hunt. Now would probably be a good time to stop for the night. Besides, his writing hand was starting to cramp…

Getting up from his seat, he stretched his limbs letting out a satisfied grunt, waking Maddie from her nap as she watched her owner down the last bit of his favorite whisky in his glass. Vlad stuffed his reading glasses away and left his office with Maddie following close behind. As the mayor passed through the long halls, his mind wandered. Perhaps he’ll see that woman again… Don’t get the wrong idea, Madeline will always be the only woman that owns his heart, but he hasn’t been able to shake off this itch on the back of his brain that he somehow knows that agent! From the way she behaved towards him, she remembers all too well that they had met before and he couldn’t think of anything he might have done to offend her.. maybe she was an employee he once had and was fired for whatever reason. Although it would be odd considering the agency she works for now so that doesn’t seem to be the likely answer, even if it would make the most sense to him on why she’d dislike him so much. He was just dying to know… oh to hell with it. It was most likely she was just another ‘eat the rich’ type just as Daniel’s friend Samantha Manson was, despite the irony of her family being rather wealthy.

Vlad’s work cell buzzed to life as he was notified of the Guys in White’s soon arrival. With a small glance of acknowledgement and grin, he dismissed his previous thoughts and focused on what truly mattered: beating Danny Phantom at his own game.

—————————————————————————

The riot you had upon discovering who had hired you for your next mission. You’re expertise being challenged by the likes of him? You’re going to kill him! After all these years you festered this hatred towards this man and here he was practically laughing at you! The last thing you could’ve ever wanted to happen was becoming a reality, you working for Vlad Masters and him making a laughing stock out of you. You were sure he was the one that hired the world’s best ghost hunters in order to catch that blasted Danny Phantom kid a few months ago, just so he could get a rise out of the chaos that had ensued. And your poor men fell right into it. Embarrassing. The promise you made that day all those years ago was being forced to be broken, and if you were to keep it, you’d lose your job over it. How you resented him for this. All he has ever done to you even now is make you suffer…

Once again you were not allowed to drive. But you didn’t care for that, he wants you to hunt ghost? Fine. You’ll give him a ghost hunt and more. So much more he’ll be running for his money! Yes. That’s exactly what you’ll do. You couldn’t help but chuckle at the thought of Masters’ face when you manage to eliminate all of these pesky ghosts in one night!

As for your coworkers, they were keeping a distance from you. You holding a heavy, dangerous, and armed Spectral Melter while having an evil grin on your face was incredibly disconcerting… they just knew it was better to stay out of your way. After all you took ghost hunting very seriously, even more so than them. If they were to make a comparison, you were like a starved lion in the Roman Colosseum arena. The moment you were released: whatever that was alive in that ring with you won’t stay alive long. It was nights like this the agents pitied the clueless spirits of what was to come.

Soon after your team had fully unpacked and prepared for the night ahead, a black limousine pulled up to allow the new mayor to greet the crew and discuss the plans he had in store. The moment he stepped out he had a smug look on his face and all you wanted to do was smack it right off, he radiated the demeanor that he was better than everyone else. Damn the election. All it did was inflate his already obnoxiously huge ego.

You barely listened to his stupid ramble about how “appreciative” he was for your team’s help and what not, all you really cared to listen about was getting started. You were all separated into groups and spread across the town, and of course your team performed exceptionally just as you expected. As for you, you were truly pushing your limits and hitting the jackpot with the spectral fiends you were rounding up. By the end of the night, you had caught the most. As you loaded the captured ghost and equipment onto a ecto-protected carry van, the smell of expensive cologne drew too close for your comfort.

“My my! Wasn’t expecting to see you tonight my dear!”

Gag. That’s all you wanted to do. Just gag. You momentarily froze, the ecto-annihilator still heavy in your hands as you were midway handing it off to Operative F, you glanced up and watched as he, and some others hurried to make some distance from you, taking the heavy equipment out of your hands to be put away for the drive back to the office. You took a deep breath before turning your attention to the mayor, whom seemed to be a bit confused by your colleagues sudden rush to pack things up.

“Mayor Masters.”

You forced yourself to say politely, holding your hip and clenching your fist as to not suddenly wring the unsuspecting man’s neck out. The silver-haired man shook off the distraction going back to his stupid smug look that you’d guess he was using to try and charm you. “It’s a pleasure to see you again my lady, and under better circumstances as well!” He said offering a smile, but you offered no response. You simply cut your eyes at him in hopes he’d wrap things up already and leave you alone.

Vlad cleared his throat, rubbing his hands together, “I was actually over here to tell you how thoroughly impressed I was to hear about the catches you made tonight! I felt that perhaps the hardest hunter tonight should be rewarded.” He complimented, “Did you expect less of me? I don’t take kindly being underestimated and then being rewarded for doing my job correctly simply because I’m a woman, Vladimir.” You bit out, god he was so frustrating.

“No! No no no of course not!” He quickly said, laughing nervously, “I’m a huge advocate for equality.” He said “What kind of mayor would I be if I wasn’t?” He smiled proudly, like he was patting himself on the back. Gross. You crossed your arms across your chest, “Don’t stress yourself for brownie points Mayor Masters, I’m going to decline this reward and be on my way.” You huffed, grabbing the support bar to pull yourself into the van. A warm hand wrapped around the wrist of your free hand

“Can I at least get your name this time? I know you may not like me for whatever reason that is but it’s most likely we’ll be seeing a lot of each other in the future for works sake. I’d hate to continue addressing you as the Mistress in White.”

You glared at him, “You can call me...”

You snatched your arm away, watching the glimmer of hope you had given quickly diminish as quickly as it had came,

“Operative B”.

Then slammed the van doors shut.

—————————————————————————

Vlad was left stunned, left alone on the concrete road as the other agents bustled into their vehicles to leave. Operative A, head agent of Guys in White (which Vlad was also now realizing he was just a rank above the Mistress), approached the mayor. “We’re all wrapped up here Mayor Masters. Is there anything else you need for us to do before we leave?” The gentleman asked.

Vlad let out a sigh of…. Disappointment? Annoyance? He wasn’t sure. “No. I appreciate your team’s cooperation in this matter.” He thanked, folding his arms behind his back, straightening himself out to recover from the whiplash of emotions the Mistress in White had served him. The agent simply nodded and headed to his designated vehicle, “Until tomorrow night, sir”.

Thus, they were off.

Vladimir went back to his home contemplating deep in thought. This “Operative B” has nearly taken over his mind completely. This hatred she holds for him is much deeper than what he had initially thought. There’s disliking a person, then there’s hatred. A hatred he was all too familiar with. But it intrigued him. It really shouldn’t, in all honesty from here on out he should just go about things and not bother with her anymore… But it did. Vlad wanted to know why she hates him so much so badly. More importantly, her name!!! The only problem is that Operative B didn’t seem keen on telling him anything anytime soon.

Suddenly an awful idea struck Vlad. An evil mischievous grin grew onto his features, feeling nothing but clever with this little plan his brain concocted. She may not tell Vlad Masters what he wants to know, but that doesn’t mean she won’t tell Vlad Plasmius what he wants to know. It was a risky game of course, but the best he’s seen from the Guys in White was confiscate Skulker’s mechanical suit and lock up FreakShow, and he wasn’t even a ghost. The damage she could do alone to Plasmius was small, if not smaller than what the Fenton’s could even do. If he plays his cards right…

Oh yes, what a wonderfully awful idea indeed.

[fipindustries]

and while i have you here talking about identities...

i still mantain that the gynophile/androphile schema is better than homosexual/heterosexual. i can say that i like women or men without having to disclose or figure out my own gender/identity to others.

it circumbents silly arguments like "is a homo-romantic trans men attracted to other men straight if they are attracted to femminine men in like a lesbian way while being butch presenting????"

[ineffable-opinions]

BL doujin & Men Who Make Some of Them

If BL is stories of androphilic men by androphilic women, then what’s the opposite of that? It would probably be stories of androphilic women by androphilic men.

The latter is what Minamoto Kazuki mainly dabbles in.

Apart from straight & BL manga, he also authored Shoujo Manga Artist Minamoto-San Comes Out. Yeah, that’s the title. It is autobiographical if that wasn’t obvious. Arguably, his most famous manga, at least in BL fandom, is Wall Circle's Doujin Artist Nekoyashiki-Kun's Desire for Recognition Grows which got live-action adaptation: KabeKoji in 2022.

Androphilic male characters who create straight content is not rare in BL. In 2023, from what I can recall, we got two such characters: Sung Woo Jae from Individual Circumstances (2023) and Yoh from Taikan Yoho (2023). Jinta from Cherry Magic (2023) also writes (presumably straight) romance. Even before that, we got an entire BL live-action franchise (starting with The Novelist (2018)).

Doujin production and consumption

Doujinshi (doujin for short) is self-published works. It includes both derivative works (fan works) as well as original works. It is estimated that nearly half of the doujin produced and circulated are BL. These are traditionally sold at conventions like Comiket. These days doujin are sold online, for example through dedicated websites like DL site.

Doujinshi culture and Comiket especially has been instrumental in the development of BL as a genre. Unfortunately, unlike other BL pioneers such as Mari Mori (her 1961 novel A Lovers' Forest is considered the first BL) and the Year 24 Group, Meikyu doujin circle (Yoshihiro Yonezawa in particular) seldom find mention in history of BL.

BL doujin grew side by side with commercially published works. The original use of the portmanteau yaoi (no peak, no fall, no meaning) was an indication of plot what plot nature of those doujins that subverted the East Asian narrative structure to focuse exclusively on erotic relations. Doujin BL varied widely in themes and approaches, even more than commercial BL as doujin are not created to appeal to the masses, instead cater to super-specific fandoms. Also, it is easier to debut into doujin arena than to commercial BL. However, since these are literally ‘thin books’ in most cases, there is associated limitation. There is cost of printing to be taken into account as well.

As more explicit doujin (yaoi) and less explicit BL (shonen ai, etc.) coevolved in a porous environment, BL transformed into a successful genre in itself with numerous dedicated magazines and multimedia adaptations. Moreover, doujin was good ground for experimentation and yields in that arena made its way into mainstream BL and enriched it.

Commercial BL welcomed many doujinshika into its fold. e.g. Ayano Yamane (author of the Finder series) is associated with a bunch of doujin circles at different points in time: GUN MANIA, Shouhoku Taiiku Yougushitsu and Ouka Seisaku.

BL mangaka continued producing both doujin and commercial BL. e.g. Kizu Natsuki (author of Given) is a prolific doujinshika under the name Gusari in Sashikizu circle.

BL mangaka produced doujin of their own work. e.g. Ichikawa Kei (author of Blue Sky Complex) published erotic extras as doujin.

These days, there is pixiv among others and long serialization possibilities. Authors are less constrained by space – unlike physical publication, web publication is not constrained by real estate (number of pages, chapters, etc.). Thanks to the internet, the distance between doujin and commercial BL have shortened. 

A lot of gei comi (bara) is also self-published.

Doujin BL culture exists everywhere BL is famous with wide variation.

Doujin played an important role in emergence and growth of Korean BL. e.g. Totally Captivated by Yoo Ha Jin had doujin extras.

Chinese doujin culture is slightly different from that in other countries. Note-worthy is the self-publication of danmei (Chinese BL) novels. Three most recent cases against danmei authors [and their accomplices including those who helped the authors print, bind, package and sell those copies] were for self-publication.  

天一(Tian Yi) for her student X teacher SM erotica 攻占 (Seize Control)  - charged for self-publication and violation of law prohibiting publication of obscenity [explicit SM involving a 17-year-old student and his teacher in the novel]

深海先生 (Mr. Deep Sea) for her historical romance 锁帝翎 (aka 笼中帝 ; The Caged Emperor)  - charged for self-publication.

There is a third. But the details are not available in the public domain.

It used to be a common practice for authors to self-publish uncensored versions of their web-published works, sometimes with explicit extras. These were intended for fans who wanted to collect these copies and to express their appreciation to the authors. Both self-publishing and “obscene content” are illegal in China.

Doujin, BL and their creators

Kabe Koji is the journey of a doujinshika, Mamoru Nekoyashiki, who yearns to be recognized as such and also as a beloved. While in high school, he fell in love with his childhood friend Kazama Issei whom he is sure doesn’t like him like that, thanks to rampant compulsory heterosexuality. Being gay was something he felt he had to keep under wraps not only because of fear of rejection but also because of heterosexism. Talented in drawing, he visits Comic King, a popular otaku convention where he discovers a different world – where male androphilia is celebrated in art.

This inspires him to cultivate his talent in drawing and to pursue a career in manga. Since the art he was most drawn in by was ero-manga with macho uke with bitch characteristics, that’s the style he pursues.

When we meet him, this is the subgenre that we see him focusing on. His influences are pretty obvious.

Moreover, the main character (hence the target of affection in his work) looks a bit like his crush. Issei notices this and tries to draw himself like that (with disproportionately thin neck) in little notes and letters to his Mamocchi.

[I honestly think Nakao Masaki was bit of a miscast for this role appearance-wise because in the manga Issei is more on the gacchiri (muscular) side of ikemen. Whoever thought Torii-san’s uke from Fudanshi Bartender no Tashinami (2022) would be right fit for Issei’s character. The actor clearly didn’t disappoint in any other aspect. This is like the case with casting decision in One Room Angel (2023) wherein a manga character with gachimuchi aesthetics was changed into a lean ikemen. An opportunity for a different body-type was wasted. No complains against those actors since they aren’t the ones responsible for casting.] This is an erroneous assessment. Thank you @tompetertrash for correcting me.

Nekoyashiki, while pursuing training and education in manga making, has already established himself as a fairly successful doujinshika known as Honeniku-sensei of Muscle Department Store. He belongs to the Wall Circle.

"Kabe circle" (wall circle) — a slang term for doujin groups or "circles" that are popular enough for their booths to be placed beside the wall of the convention, for ease of line management. (Source: ANN)

He is friends with Yamada, a fujoshi who is his support in creating, defending and selling doujin.

Such friendships are not too rare. For example, friendship between Yoh and Manju in Taikan Yoho (2023). And the IRL friendship between female danmei author Lan Lin and male manhuajia Liang Azha.

Yun SuAn's friend Choi is a BL manhwaga in My Damn Business (2024).

Nekoyashiki meets two other characters at Comic King: Framboise and Takkun.

Framboise is the president of a doujin circle called Bearded Beauties. He is very popular. He is not only among the wall circles each time we see him, but also is showered with gifts by his fans. He acknowledges that he has been doujinshika for years. His art resembles him – body-type, facial hair, moe. He keeps inviting Nekoyashiki warmly to a gathering of muscle BL artists despite getting turned down. His interactions with Nekoyashiki are precious.

Takkun is Nekoyashiki’s fan. He is inspired by Nekoyashiki and worked hard to establish himself as a wall circle doujinshika.

His rise from a consumer to producer of doujin and finally a wall circle doujinshika mirror's Nekoyashiki’s journey. Moreover, his rise is contrasted with Nekoyashiki’s fall.

Also, one of two characters on his doujin cover looks a lot like him.

Unlike Framboise and Takkun who draw what they like, Nekoyashiki draws to be recognized.

Nekoyashiki draws a second season to his previous work Please Suck on my Enormous, Manly Tits. Despite Yamada’s best hopes, it is not popular at all and loses Nekoyashiki his position as a wall circle doujinshika. He bids goodbye to Suck My Manly Tits series and to ero-manga sub-genre in general.

In a desperate attempt to climb back into popularity, he tries classic BL pairing. We get to see him reading commercial BL as a part of his research. This is an obvious mistake. Yamada wants to intervene but hesitates and ultimately gives up.

When his next doujin, My Perfect Boss Became My Perfect Spouse, also flops, he loses his resolve to be a mangaka.

Yamada asks Nekoyashiki to be more honest and expressive in his creation.

In the end, Nekoyashiki creates a doujin inspired by his own relationship and aspirations – a work that, Framboise and Yamada notices, is to Nekoyashiki’s satisfaction.   

It is common for at least some characters by male BL and gei comi mangakas (who have revealed themselves) to look at least a little bit like themselves. To see examples, check out the beginning of Massive: Gay Erotic Manga and the Men Who Make It where representative art and artists are placed side by side. Some even acknowledge this. e.g. Chinese BL manhuajia Liang Azha once commented on how his shou (uke) tend to look like him as he is today and his gong (seme) resemble his looks from his college days. Moreover, art tend to inspire clothing, haircuts, and other features which in turn inspire art. The influence Tom of Finland had on androphilic men of his days and they on him is discussed in his 2017 biopic. Similarly, mangakas are influenced by their senpais in the field and sometimes it is noticeable in their art too. e.g. Gengoroh Tagame’s historical works looks quite a bit like those of Go Mishima.

Other BL doujinshika in Live-action BL

Yoh from Taikan Yoho (2023) creates his first BL doujin, inspired by his ikemen boyfriend and their relationship, in collaboration with his mangaka friend Manju after his career as commercial mangaka of straight ero-manga takes a nose-dive.

BL Metamorphosis (2022) depicted the process of BL doujin creation in detail as the main character, Sayama Urara, embarks on that journey. Her friends offer her support, especially Ichinoi Yuki who funds the printing and binding. Sayama Urara doesn’t debut as doujinshika as she doesn’t set up her booth at the convention. However, one of the copies lands in the hand of one of her favorite authors Komeda Yu whose commercial BL work Kimi no Koto dake Miteitai was what brought Sayama Urara and Ichinoi Yuki together.

Komeda Yu on the other hand is a doujinshika turned commercial BL mangaka. She visits the convention in hopes of overcoming writer’s block and to rediscover her passion for drawing. She is motivated by the doujin that Sayama Urara created and emerges out of slump to continue with her series. 

Fudanshi Bartender no Tashinami (2022) revolves around Soichiro Hibiki, a fudanshi bartender moonlighting as a BL doujinshika, who draws inspiration from his customers and fellow bar staff to fuel his passion.

Minamoto Kazuki

While narrative drives home the point that the various pieces of art we see are works of respective doujinshika characters through haircuts and body types, the fact remains that most of those are actual doujin by Minamoto Kazuki aka MELU. He belongs to the circle: GOOD BYE LIFE.

In case anyone want to read them, here are the links:

Kumabayashi at Work Has Not Underwear Line

One Million Miles: The Complete Collection

Competition Swimming Brief in Suit Man

A Midsummer Night's Beach Story: SM Assault Works 2

Suck My Manly Tits manga: 俺の雄っぱいがでっかくなっちまうくらいちゅーちゅー吸ってくれ

俺の雄っぱいがでっかくなっちまうくらいちゅーちゅー吸ってくれ2

"Suck My Manly Tits" doujin is in its 3rd season: 俺の雄っぱいがでっかくなっちまうくらいちゅーちゅー吸ってくれ3

Autobiographical pieces that didn't figure prominently:

30年以上マンガをほとんど読んだことなかった彼氏がBL沼にハマった話 (A story about how my boyfriend, who has barely read manga for over 30 years, got addicted to BL swamp.)

J庭でちいさな夢を叶えたゲイカップルの話 : Story of a gay mangaka and his boyfriend who participated in J.GARDEN, and their little dream that came true.

The cover of this doujin got live-action adaptation in one scene that one would miss if not looking closely:

Other interesting works by Minamoto Kazuki

Autobiographical: Shōjo Mangaka no Minamoto-san ga Kaminguauto Shimasu.

2. Those with English translation:

The Midnight Association for The Broken Hearted

The salaryman who has a fetish for suit gets horny.

The Gay Who Turned Kaiju

3. Essay-manga about doujin-making

夜寝てる間にBL原稿のお手伝いをしてくれる妖精さんがいた話

BL同人原稿(アナログ18禁!!)を東京から大阪の印刷所まで届け��くれた彼氏の話

4. About Kabe Koji (2022) live-action:

自分が原作の実写ドラマの大ファンになってしまったので原作者自らヲタ活をしています。

自分が原作の実写BLドラマをリアタイしたくて大阪へ行ってきました。

___

This is dedicated to @bengiyo and @liyazaki for gifs featuring Framboise. Thank you very much. While I was trying my hand at a review for One Room Angel (2023) and wanted to express my disappointment at the lean ikemen casting for Kouki’s role, I got an opportunity to use those gifs. I really wish someone would create some gifs for SHIMBASHI TUGBOAT content too.

(Especially this scene.)

For someone who is as much a fan of “tribes” as BenZi, I would not mind playing the 9Monster live-action BL bingo version.

[transgenderer]

men and androphiles are a waste of a consciousness. softness is synonymous with worth. a civilized society would slaughter every last hideousness-worshipper without mercy

cant agree of course but i have some appreciation for this type of crazypost

[transmascpetewentz]

no joke i have actually seen a radfem call ppl who like men “androphiles” soo…

because homosexual is a bad word suddenly.

[wit-and-worry]

A big problem I have with fanfic written from a gay male perspective is the fact that the vast majority of it is written by illiterate young AFABs who evidently don't know what it's like to grow up male and so have not internalized the worst parts of male socialization and so never had to mask their attraction to men and shun femininity to be accepted in the way that cis men have(I think passing trans men don't necessarily have the full idea either, though they have a better idea than people who have no male social experience--- most of us did not experience boyhood). The characterization always has an uncanny quality to it, even when the writing is not total shite. I guess the issue is not that they don't have the baggage, but that they don't understand it. Like when men write female narrators, even with good intentions, while evidently not understanding female social baggage. I think it could be understood to some degree by observing life more closely and empathetically and interrogating the dynamics they see between the sexes. Also by exposing themselves to and thoughtfully examining more mature literature.

I think this lack of perspective also partly explains why so many AFABs compulsively ship any two men with chemistry, but hardly bother with women. Most of them are androphilic, yes, but have also struggled to and sometimes continue to struggle to relate to and maintain friendships with males. Because of the whole 'men and women can't be friends' mentality(probably better described by the term heteronormativity) that has been imposed on and internalized by them they seem to assume that the same inexorable erotic implication between men and women also exists between male friends who are a smidge closer or more comfortable/vulnerable with each other than they're supposed to be.

Yeah, I know that most fanfic writers today aren't well-read or interested in writing well and are just kids having dumb fun. I look back sometimes at the tags on fanfiction.net and a greater proportion of what's on there is actually competently written or at least interesting. Many of the works come off as the love children of novelists.

I'm not prejudiced against fanfiction. I seek it out for the same reason everyone does: because I'm not satisfied with the source material in some way. I just wish it wasn't 95% immature slop.

Some fanfic writers I see online today, or maybe all fanfic writers at some point, do seem to want to write well, but never improve because fanfiction spaces are circle jerks that reward fan service more than skill. Fanfiction itself tends to be masturbatory even when it's not straight up porn. Maybe self-indulgent is a better term lol.