#and they wanted to have consequences for players doing the “evil path”

[tuxedo-rabbit]

You know, one of the most interesting thing about BG3 to me is that all the different choices and RP moments you can make mean that it's very easy to have a multitude of playthroughs that don't neatly fall into the boxes of "good" or "evil" runs.

The other interesting thing is that whenever Larian talks about their game, it feels like this was a complete accident.

[lucrezianoin]

Dark Urge and Astarion romance (spoilers for both quests)

So I have a lot of feelings about the Astarion romance route while playing Dark Urge. A LOT. I feel like the two (and in general Shadowheart's personal quest too actually) feel very complementary.

TW for everything involving Astarion's past, and general violence.

Keep in mind that this is going to be a long post and it is going to have SPOILERS for the whole game, till the very end. In general this is a long happy rant about how happy I am about Dark Urge path and Astarion romance together. Also keep in mind that this is about my feelings of the two, not about "which one is objectively the best romance for Dark Urge". This is more of a "please if you liked astarion romance as tav romance him as dark urge too" than a "if you play as dark urge you need to romance astarion".

Also keep in mind this is ONLY about redeeming Dark Urge and their good path! In the post I will only talk a little bit about the bad ending.

General points

In general, I just wanted to talk about the theme of the urges/hunger, the theme of family and escaping from your family, a little bit about the evil choice and the whole theme of rebirth that both characters have quite explicitly. In this order!

Urges

The first point of connection between the two characters is the fact that they are (sometimes) both driven by a certain hunger for blood or violence. As Durge you will be able to see how your companions react to these black outs, and you will worry about it, and Astarion seems to be among the most accepting. Maybe it is just his need to keep on Durge's good side, or maybe it is just the fact that he has experience on it.

In later scenes, Astarion will draw parallels between Durge's experience and his own. If Durge is cursed to succumb to his own urges, then Astarion will directly connect that to the times Cazador's has driven him feral and mad with hunger.

During the extra Durge specific romance scene, Astarion makes another direct connection to the violence in Durge and what he previously did. He does not have a completely clean conscience (that is clear, and not just because of Cazador), and he is not as "good" at making the good nice choice as other companions.

He understands the hunger and losing control over his body more than others, so he can empathize with Durge and what they are going through. He jokes about it, sure, but he is genuinelly worried.

Another option in the dialogue has him saying "If anyone understands an internal voice forcing your hand, I do. But that's not who we are now. We make our own choices, and you made the right one last night." He is the only companion who uses the "we".

Other points of overlapping are, of course, the fact that both characters have gaps in their memories. Astarion because of trauma and Durge because of physical trauma (torture and well, violence). Their past is one of violence, for both of them, and while Durge operated it a little more voluntarily than Astarion, this NEW Durge, the blank state we get at the start of the game... well, in a good playthrough they try to resist their need for violence just like Astarion is resisting his hunger and his thirst for power.

Reciprocal saving

Astarion is literally introduced as a damsel in distress. He is the only companion whose quest NEEDS to be completed before the tadpole is removed or he will become a slave again (other companions might have other consequences, but nothing that cannot be solved after the tadpole removal, and in case of Karlach there is no limit, she is destined to die or return to Avernus). He does need help, he cannot face Cazador alone, so we all know his plan for protection.

The first scene he appears him is literally him asking for help to try and lure the player and get some answers out of them.

As a player with companions characters, we are all used to helping them in their quests. But as I said, Astarion's help is kinda on a ticking clock based on the end of the game... and well, he is the one who is clearly less involved with abilities and fighting. In story, he is the only one who is out of place. Gale is a great wizard and Mystra ordered him to take care of the brain, Wyll is a legendary hero, Karlach is a legendary warrior, Shadowheart is on a mission for Shar, Lae'zel is also a warrior and she will be on her mission for Orpheus soon, Halsin is a powerful druid who wants to break a curse directly connected to the brain etc. etc.

Astarion is... a guy. Who was a slave. By accident he has been chosen by the mindflayers and freed. His only connection with the group is the tadpole, he could not care less about, well, the "mission". His own mission is remaining free and getting rid of Cazador. And he needs the player character for that (we know he is recaptured if he leaves the group).

I could go on a rant about the angst of it all and the power imbalance this create and the fear that surely drives him through act 1, but for now I wanted to talk about this "be saved by the player character" and how with Durge it finally becomes reciprocal.

This is more than "let's help each other on a quest". This is two characters who are on a path of possible evilness and destruction, promising to save each other.

I think some of the imbalance in a Tav's playthrough, where Tav is good and helps Astarion out of their good heart, disappears in a Durge one.

Durge NEEDS Astarion as much as Astarion needs him. Astarion directly promises Durge to save them from becoming a slave to their urges. One of my favourite options as Durge is replying "I will be the person you want to see in me". Because for ALL the complaining, all the times Astarion says he wants power... the person he wants to see in Durge is still someone sweet and kind, a good heart.

You have two possible bad people who end up being each other moral compass and saviors, equally. And I think it makes the story so much richer. Of course, in the case of Astarion it is a direct persuasion check from the player (as long as you make him face the consequences), in the case of Durge is more metagaming, given it is the idea of wanting to be the person Astarion sees in you (and your friends and companions).

Both Astarion and Durge need to be seen for the good parts they have in them.

After the Durge questline, when they refuse Bhaal, Astarion will say "But somehow by your side I still only ever saw you", which echos what he says to Durge (in his romance scene) that he feels seen by them.

Family

For all the violence and the horror, the quests of Durge and Cazador are presented as family. Durge's family was what led them to violence, their father basically cursing them to a life of hate, then they were betrayed by their "sister" and made into a blank state.

Cazador constantly swings between considering his spawns as children or pets/dogs, putting himself in the role of the almost father. The spawns call each other siblings.

While the two families are quite different, they both end up with Astarion and Durge having to make a choice about choosing or refusing the "father"'s power, one to be stolen and the other offered.

You were also both made by them. Cazador often remarks on Astarion being his and being made/his creation. Bhaal directly considers Durge a puppet he made, and if Durge does not agree with his plan then he will make another.

The evil choice

I found it pretty interesting that there is only one quest among companions that have a full on evil choice, and that is Astarion's. Shadowheart's two choices are both painful and very hard to decide upon, Gale's choice of giving back the crown is seen generally as a good choice but it also involves giving back to Mystra who abused her power on him. Karlach, Minsc and Jaheira don'r really have choices. Lae'zel's choice of queen vs Orpheus is a clear path to Orpheus (as in, I think she decides that on her own if she sees him) but the real choice happens at the end, where she has to choose between Orpheus and living for herself - what is the good choice there? Helping free her people or live her own life? Wyll's choice is also hard and almost equal in pain/gain, one is saving his father and being stuck in the pact, and the other is freeing him but knowing Mizora will come for his father again (even if you save him in game). I think it is telling that the choice is hard because Wyll never says he regrets making the pact in the first place, it was a hard choice he had to make.

Astarion and Durge are the only personal quests that have a clear and defined evil ending, and interestingly enough it is similar...

Both glowing in red light while accepting the cursed power given by their "fathers". Both will come out of it with glowing eyes and evil smiles. The bad choice makes them the worst version of each other, as they both failed to be anchor for their good selves.

I really dislike ascended Astarion, and he clearly has a bigger impact on his personality, given Durge is a player character, but I still found it a good parallel, just the fact that these are the two in the party who can be REALLY evil, who can truly go towards the worst possible path. And not a path of "evil together", but a path of domination and reciprocal destruction.

Astarion becomes everything Cazador's was and wants to take control of Durge, and Durge has to follow Bhaal's plan and take control of the brain... which ends up with Astarion just where he started, as a puppet controlled by that person who (as the Butler once said) he should have feared the most.

Rebirth (the good choice)

NOW TO TALK ABOUT MY FAVORITE POINT. Both stories, both quests, end in an explicit rebirth symbolism.

We have Durge literally dying, and being resurrected by another god of death, coming back to life to find out that he has been given a second chance. The urges have gone, they are free, they are a new person forged by the experience they went through during the path to Baldur's Gate.

In the same way, Astarion is also forged by his experiences with the group and Durge, by what they all went through. So much that if the player does not allow him to confront Sebastian and show him that he is driven by fear, that he, deep down, feels compassion for the spawns... then the player will lose the ability to persuade him to stop the ritual.

Astarion is also reborn, so much that we have a whole scene where he writes a new date on his tomb, it cannot be more explicit than this.

In both cases not only the theme of rebirth but of responsibility is stressed. Astarion talks about freedom as a place where he (and his siblings) are responsible for their choices, good or bad. And the same can be said about Durge.

So yes, I think playing as Durge puts so much more into Astarion's romance, because creates an almost parallel path of these two people who could easily become the worst version of themselves, and if Durge pushes to stop their urges, in a good playthrough, they do become each other's anchor and key to break the cycle.

[classicanalyzer]

Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power Season 2 Premiere Thoughts

"I have walked through the dust and deserts of far-away lands, in search of an artist possessing the craft to save all Middle-Earth. A storm is coming, Celebrimbor. I can bring you the knowledge none other possesses. I can unlock your grandest abilities. And when our work is complete, never again will the world overlook you as the mere scion of Fëanor but forevermore revere you...The Lord of the Rings." Sauron/Annatar

Season 2 really improved on the aspects of S1 I found lacking. There are more connections to the lore of the Second Age and better writing in the stories from S1. The production design of this show has always looked amazing, but this season really nails it. The practical Orc designs is always great to see. What a great premiere.

Elven Kings Under the Sky

"Always, after a defeat... the shadow takes another shape and grows again. Morgoth is gone. Leaving us alone and disgraced. But today, a new age begins. Under me. Your new master. Sauron. And with a new age, I bring a new vision. A path to unconditional conquest. For I seek a new kind of power. Not of the flesh, but over flesh. A power of the unseen world. One we shall use to enslave the peoples of Middle-earth to our very will. Many Orcs will die. But out of the chaos, we will forge a new and perfect order. No longer will we be hunted as the demons who broke Middle-earth, but rather worshipped as the saviors who finally healed it. By bringing its peoples together, to rule them all as one!" Sauron

I find it funny how Sauron was this out-of-touch wannabe ruler who nonetheless shows why he's feared as he killed a treasonous Orc. This Sauron is a player who didn't invest any points into charisma lmao.

It says a lot about a being when freaking Orcs (one of the most famous examples of corrupted evil mooks) revolt against Sauron. I really like how this show makes you emphasize the Orcs and how Adar was a caring ruler for the Orcs and wanted the best for them. This is especially compared to Sauron who just outright told them they must obey him and they're a race who are meant to be hated.

It's fascinating to see how much the prologue of S2 parallels the prologue of S1 between Sauron and Galadriel. And of course, Sauron chose selfishness just as Diarmid, the kind old man, telling him that he can choose to be good each day until he's good all day. It also shows how Sauron once again loves to lie and twist the truth.

I really love Elrond for understandably being the only one to distrust the rings. I also like the strained relationship between Galadriel and the rest of the Elves even further, except this time they have to work with her since she's the one who got them into this mess. Also, that beautiful shot (the screenshot for this episode's thoughts) is an amazing piece of visual storytelling. It conveys a sense of underlying sadness for Círdan that I can feel.

The Three Elven Rings are finally used (Gil-Galad is a great singer ngl) and we will have to see the greater ramifications and consequences of their use.

The Stranger's deadpan snarker humor is pretty funny to see. I'm also glad Poppy is a part of the duo now, she and Nori have a pretty wholesome dynamic.

The orchestral reprisal of Wandering Day (Warning in the Words) is mesmerizing. It's such a great payoff and a heartwarming reminder that while Sadoc is gone, he continues to help his fellow Harfoots in death.

Where the Stars are Strange

"You are wise to fear this power, Elrond. But do not let that fear blind you to the ways it can be used for good. For it is not your enemy, that bear these rings...But your most trusted friends. If you believe they have strayed, do not abandon them, but rather open their eyes and guide them...Before the darkness spreads across Middle-earth, and blinds us all." Círdan.

I really love the updated intro for this show as the grain of sand shifts to the music. But now we see red grain as the darkness of Mordor (the red sand at one point "erupting") and Sauron begins to spread. It really sets the stage for the dark times ahead for Middle-earth. The logo is now less shiny and more rusted.

The opening for this episode is so chilling with Celebrimbor's impending death. I just wonder if the show is going to adapt Sauron's brutal killing of Celebrimbor and show his corpse if they adapt the Siege of the Grey Havens.

Durin IV and Dísa continue to be one of the sweetest and wholesome couples in Middle-earth and this show. I love how they support each other at Durin's lowest point. Seeing Khazad-dûm's lights dim is so chilling and it just further sets the ground for the eventual Durin's Bane to come. When Dísa and the singers fail to communicate with the mountain, it really shows how the darkness is beginning seep in everywhere.

Círdan has a great speech about how despite the origins of something with the potential for evil, it can be used for good...but that they must ever be vigilant, not let fear dominate them, and watch over their friends to ensure they stay on the right path.

I find it funny how Elrond agrees to help out Galadriel...but puts himself in charge of the mission. It shows how far their friendship had fallen and Elrond's distrust in Galadriel's ability to resist Sauron.

The Rhûn theme absolutely slaps so hard. It really captures the wonders of the desert really well.

Sauron knows exactly how to use his injuries to make himself sympathetic. He's a clever evil bastard alright.

At this point, the Stranger has to be Gandalf. I wonder who the Dark Wizard is tho. I hope the Dweller Acolyte gets more to do in this season.

The reveal of Annatar, the definition of the devil in angel's clothing, was so well done. He really knows presentation alright by making his entrance the most flashy dramatic reveal ever lol. I felt legit chills when he did a title drop with the Rings theme playing forbiddingly. The whole scene felt like a Renaissance painting come to life and at that point, I totally got how Annatar basically had Celebrimbor at his fingertips. The whole Annatar name reveal was so satisfying to hear.

The Eagle and the Sceptre

"And yet...the grief of Númenor is sacred to me. Your pain, a prayer within these walls. I hear your sorrow, and your anger. I share it. We have bloodied and been bloodied. But know this... We will find our course. Should there be another among us who feels moved to speak...firstly ask yourself this, for whom do you cry out? For those we have already buried? For your kingdom? Or for yourself?" Míriel

Nothing bad should happen to Berek, one of the best characters of the show haha. Also, Isildur fighting against Shelob is pretty cool. It says a lot about how he longs to go back home now...though given the episode, it may seem like he might not be able to go back home.

I really love Valandil standing up for the Queen and he's becoming one of my favorite side characters of the show. He represents the soldiers who know what it was like in the battle compared to the politicians who use their suffering and the deaths of their peers for their own persona selfish agenda. I really hope he survives Númenor's downfall.

Some of the rhetoric of the pro-Pharazôn faction echoes the sentiment of people post-WW1 of the pointlessness and/or failures of the war. And one such latter group would go on to create one of the most monstrous regimes in human history, just like how Pharazôn's reign as King will become one of the most monstrous regimes in Middle-earth history.

Elendil's relationship with Eärien is going to be fascinating going forward as the two seem to be on opposing sides. It's ironic how in the show, one of Elendil's children began the downfall of Númenor while his other child caused Sauron to live onto the Third Age.

I never thought I would see a wholesome Orc family nor hear heavy metal in Middle-earth and you love to see it. I find it absolutely hilarious that the hill troll is voiced by Gil-Gilad's actor (I wonder if Gil-Gilad and the hill troll will fight each other...that would be so funny).

I absolutely love how Durin IV becomes the first character of this season to realize Annatar's untrustworthy nature because he knew that Elrond would never compliment him like that. The fact Durin IV knew that speaks a lot about their friendship.

I knew smth was fishy about Estrid but for a split moment, I thought maybe she was alright.

I know the death of Bronwyn is due to her actress Nazanin Boniadi stepping away from the show, and it's such a gut punch to see Arondir and Theo revert a bit from their character growth as they both grieve. You can feel that Arondir wants to help Theo but Arondir's reversion back to stoicism to cope and Theo's grieving prevents the two from bonding further.

The story of how Isildur's mother died and how she saved her son's life at the cost of her own...and how Isildur didn't tell anyone because of his own guilt. I really love how Theo emphasized this story given how his mother just died and all the way back in S1, Theo already felt guilty for how the Southlands became Mordor. Isildur's motivations for wanting to do something worthy are now revealed to be his idea to make up for his mother's sacrifice.

Never mess with Ents. Nuff said.

It took a rewatch but I find it funny that the Eagle, a sign of a bad omen in Númenor, looked like it was trying to say "No you idiots don't put Pharazôn into power!" and then left when it became clear Numenor chose its fate. The music especially is incredibly chilling for one simple reason: the main theme of Númenor is still the same. There's a minor key shift but it's still the same theme used for Pharazôn. This really spells the end of Númenor even before the Island will inevitably sink. The red of the future that Pharazôn will lead Númernor is one of blood and horrors.

[shadowshrike]

Ascended Astarion Appreciation Post

I'm not going to do a true analysis here because I feel like all the individual lines of spawn/ascended/neutral Astartion and how broad the interpretations of them can be depending on the context of your playthrough have already been discussed ad nauseam by the fandom. The stellar voice work only adds to the ability for a player to feel a connection with whatever narrative they like best. However, I want to throw my personal experience with his storyline into the ring because I feel it's rather unusual.

For my style of play, I initially only brought Astarion along on my 'clever evil' run. I had no knowledge of his storyline before I started and didn't do any metagaming to win his approval; I just brought him along because the 2 minutes I saw of him in my main run made him seem like a good fit for a Tav with selfish choices. This was a custom bard playthrough where I made everyone love me by being a great con artist, killed the few who might make my rise to power more difficult (like the Nightsong), and lightly manipulated our companions into giving me their protection while I only took on minor risk. Naturally, Astarion played well with this character. He was entertained by having a partner to 'play' with, one who didn't get put off by cruel comments or his lust for power and was good at pretending to be manipulated by the questionably charismatic vampire.

I expected the power lust and loss of humanity toward the end of his story. What I did not expect was that by doing an Ascended playthrough first, I would ruin my desire to reload for the Spawn ending later. After all, aren't you supposed to want to do the "Good" thing when your default gameplay style is Good-aligned?

What solidified it for me were two things. First, his response to the Gur. His reaction suggested to me that he was probably a power-hungry noble before he was turned, one who paid the consequences for his cruelty, jumped at the chance for an escape through Cazador when faced with the consequences of that cruelty, and then spent the next 200 years being tortured horrifically for it. From everything I gleaned through his half-retelling, his story was much like the victims of hags or devils. I felt bad for the disproportionate horror of his fate, but there was an odd sort of justice in it as well, one that had long descended into pure evil thanks to the creature he fell victim to.

The second thing that turned me from doing a full playthrough just to see the Spawn ending was, oddly enough, the confession where he explains he's been manipulating you and has accidentally developed feelings. Now, this is partly because I may have accidentally skipped part of the animation, but when I decided to reciprocate the 'heartfelt feelings' as part of my character's manipulation, his answering smirk seemed to say, "Gotcha. So all I have to do is act vulnerable, weak, and like I would be nicer if someone just loved me for once in my life, and they'll protect me forever. I can do that."

After that point, I could never take any statement he made about redemption seriously, especially not if he was particularly blunt about it. The nail-on-the-head speeches I'd seen from him on the spawn path seemed exactly that - too perfect. Like it was exactly what a good character would want to hear, and something a rather poor manipulator but one who specializes in making people feel loved (which Astarion is) would fall back on. That's not to say the words don't ring with truth - they really do thanks to the beautiful voice work - but in the context of his relationship with power and dependence, every word felt like falling back on old habits to manage his fears. Ones he may not even be aware of, truthfully.

Do I think that was the intent by the writers? Absolutely not. But the more I pressed on in the story and he never reverted to that overly sweet act after he realized my character was actually more interested in giggling with him over how to obtain absolute power, the more it felt like the whole 'poor victim' act, although absolutely rooted in some truth, was truly an act to him.

He was terrified, would always be terrified, and had no problem doing whatever he needed to do in order to keep that terror at bay. His desperation made him easy to manipulate. He begged for both the tadpole's powers and Raphael's deal, staying true to a character that would always take the risk as long as it didn't threaten his vanity like the astral tadpole did. He was clearly incapable of forming a healthy relationship with anyone and had no interest in actually working on himself. Still, he was a master at adjusting his behaviors just enough to make himself safer in his new 'goodish' environment by acting like he had come to appreciate goodness. Not that he was ever completely heartless, even on a selfish/evil run, but it became clear that he mostly wanted goodness for himself. He didn't want a lack of chains in the world. He wanted to be the one holding them.

Ascending him was the obvious choice in an evil run. I would both be giving him the one thing he truly wanted and putting him forever in my debt...at least until his annoyance at having a debt outweighed his fear of being alone.

Becoming his spawn, on the other hand, was a hard choice. And probably the most satisfying narrative choice I made in all my playthroughs, good or evil.

For context, I had refused to use any tadpole powers in this run, giving it to him instead, so he could deal with the risk while being pleased by being handed more power. I didn't want to sacrifice anything personally while I was busy putting everyone in my debt. But here I was faced with a dilemma - did I have confidence that my character could still manipulate this vampire driven by fear enough to take the world if I let him turn me into a spawn so I could be immortal? Would the good and evil armies I'd raised to my name be enough to stop Astarion if he started to lose his utter devotion to me and made me a mindless thrall? If I said no or suddenly cast doubt on him, he'd certainly be enraged, given my prior support of him and his fear of rejection. Was the danger of angering him on top of losing that ascended vampire power worth my mortal freedoms? How long would that freedom even last if I said no, assuming he truly did end up exactly like Cazador, who would likely have just taken it from me in a rage?

Interestingly, this choice was made for me by the insight check that some people hate so much. When I saw he thought my character was still above him, that I had to degrade myself to be with him, I realized the man's leash hadn't gone anywhere. I could use him to get me the world. Yes, he would continue trying to manipulate me with empty promises, but I would continue manipulating him in turn by appealing to his petty vanity and insecurities. And together, we could have everything he ever lusted after with the only cost being a soul he was more than willing to lose.

I think the perfect cap to this was the ending. A romanced Ascended Astarion's ending was easily the most satisfying ending part of all the little character moments of all my playthroughs. The evil power fantasy was perfect. With the choices I made, it implied he was 100% as much my thrall as I was his (less literally in his case), leaving the corruption of his character beyond pure power lust open to interpretation. Add to that the satisfaction of his new unique dialogs near that end, and I was blown away. His confidence, for once, did not seem fake, though it was still informed by the fears that had driven him from the beginning. It was not his most healed or kind self (and how could he be either of those in any ending after 200 years of torture unless he was lying?), but his most free self, enjoying everything he ever wanted in a blaze of glory, relishing in his control, and fully giving himself to the newfound passions given by his second life.

Is he evil, selfish, and controlling? Absolutely. Will some hero inevitably take him out down the line when he gets a little too crazy with his powers? Probably. But such is the beauty and fun of the evil power fantasy.

It's unfortunate that playing this route, I can't enjoy how he is chained by the spawn route. I can understand what it is trying to do. Promoting the power of forgiveness, love, and support to allow someone to be their best self. It aims to apply human healing patterns to a supernatural creature in a cathartic way, one that has been successful for a great many people. But for me, it just doesn't land.

On runs where I care about his fate on a personal level, I hate to see him forced into a life where he loses all the things that have brought him joy, either now or when his lover dies. I don't want my choices 'for his own good' to mandate he forever sacrifices his own wants and needs. I hate how he tells you that you made the right choice after things have calmed down if you refuse to help him because what other option does he have? You've stripped him of hope outside of your protection. Without a cure, he's helpless at the feet of the Good heroes surrounding him who could end him in an instant if he's anything other than grateful and fawning for how much you've saved him. After the other route, that fate feels like dying a second slow death for a character so desperate for freedom and power, no matter how self-destructive it is. And since he basically says you did the 'right thing' when you have a high relationship no matter what end you choose with him, Good or Evil or in-between, it loses its power to me as a narrative anchor to any feel-good moments.

Personally, I like Astarion most as a character who is able to fulfill his base desires, ugliness and all. I think he's written in a way where he's well-suited to be both a victim and an awful person. I like the unique narrative of him being someone who is a bit of a monster and most fulfilled by being his worst self rather than seeking redemption, but appreciate that most people feel more fulfilled by a route where he's humanized and gets to heal through romance or a supportive friend.

I encourage everyone to find their own favorite variation of him. To me, he is one of the messiest characters who can have wildly different 'truths' depending on the context of your playthrough and your interpretations of his lines. Since he's a known liar and manipulator (and an unfathomably old one at that by human standards), there are a million and one different headcanons you can use to fill in the blanks on what he really means, who he really is, and what he really wants or needs.

I hope everyone out there enjoys whatever version of Astarion they like best. For me, I think I just might have to try a different variation on an evil playthrough. I want to see what other contexts I can get for his Ascension story and whether any of them hit as many satisfying narrative notes as my first.

[snapscube]

inFamous' karma system is simply binary and way too rigid to be compelling. "Oh you think bullies should be opposed? Then you're on the babykilling spectrum"

And the gameplay needs to be reworked and expanded tremendously to have incorporate a multifaceted Karma system, which is simply too much effort that neither Sony or SuckerPunch seem to be interested in spending

I think for the time period the early games were released in it was novel and mostly well done but I think if the series wants to survive a modern revival then, PERSONALLY, my hope would be to go the route of the immersive sim genre (or even like, Undertale for a weirder example haha) and leave narrative consequences purely up to gameplay choices rather than dedicated Karma Moments. You lose some of the immediate presentational satisfaction and flare yes, but I think it would be so much more interesting if players like didn’t even fully realize just how much their choices were affecting their story experience until it’s far too late. I think this way you also get rid of the weird situation where in inFAMOUS you really don’t make hero or villain choices as you play the game. Technically you do, but like… how many people are playing half the game making hero choices and then suddenly deciding “uh wait actually i’m gonna sacrifice this civilian so i don’t hallucinate for a bit”. Like, you only really hear about “Good playthroughs” or “Evil playthroughs” and nothing more nuanced because there are legitimate gameplay and power progression reasons to stick to a single karmic path through the whole game. Upgrades are locked behind karma levels of either disposition. It would be a LOT more work and at higher risk of missing the mark to go for a more hidden, nuanced approach yes. But man, if you could pull it off you would have something REALLY special by the end of it I think.

[smallnico]

7 for the ask game.

hell yeahhhh thanks for asking!!

7. Describe their arc. How would a player help resolve it? What choices can be made? Can your Tav be turned down a dark path, or pulled to a lighter one?

i already touched on this in the romance ask but, as is the durge way, esper's arc is hinged on whether they embrace or reject bhaal. i do like to imagine that the facts of their arc are more of a flavour to the actual conflict with esper, which is about doing what you're meant to do versus having the freedom to fuck around and just exist.

hella elaboration under the cut, it's long lmao

esper is a character who doesn't feel entitled to anything. everything they have is a gift they owe someone else, and that gift requires constant vigilance and maintenance to avoid disrespecting the person who bestowed it upon them. they'll never admit it but one of their greatest shames is that they sometimes feel proud of the hand they've had in cultivating their own skills, because it really does require a lot of work, but none of that work is really theirs to give or take pride in because the way they see it, it's really the least they could do.

especially when they don't have any memories, and all they have is the frantically cobbled-together mask of behaviours that assure that the people they're travelling with won't abandon them, nothing esper has feels like theirs, not even their mind, not even their body. they will do anything in their capacity to be useful to and liked by the people around them, and when the voice of their god and creator tells them to kill, the only thing really stopping them is an (in their/bhaal's mind) stubborn and spiteful flaw in their soul that insists that they don't want to -- they want to do something that's all theirs, that they can actually feel proud of, they want to feel like their messy and complicated existence as a person is true and worth something, that it isn't just a mistake someone made while trying to craft the perfect tool.

the choice for the player is complicated by the fact that esper is really very good at killing and magic, and is extremely receptive to being told what to do. they won't disapprove of your choices if you're evil or good, as long as you're good at what you're doing. when utilized correctly they're versatile and efficient, and they'll make themself useful to you like their life depends on it by offering psychic insights into the people you come across, saying the things you're afraid to say, offering to stay back as a sacrifice, all that jazz, because their comfort zone (even without memories) is Being Used. they compare themself to a well-balanced sword or an instrument -- someone crafted it with love and skill, and it would be both a shame and a waste to not sharpen it, tune it, use it, maintain it, let it do what it was meant to do. let the sword swing and find flesh, let the violin play in a concert hall.

(sidenote: i have in my mind the idea that you gain approval from them by passing skill checks to resolve situations in clever ways, and lose approval by failing skill checks where the consequences matter -- because esper would feel a twinge of disgust at the type of person who, say, lets a child that they were Trying to save die because they overestimated their own abilities and clearly didn't care enough to ensure success or adequately assess their own limits. if you fail at something you care about esper Will make you feel worse about it. they suck lmao)

but at the end of the day, esper isn't an object, and it's kind of the fundamental tragedy of their existence that they were made to be both a person and a tool, so the mere act of using them as bhaal intended to would be an act of violence. esper has character quirks that embarrass them: they have medicine proficiency, but their bedside manner is atrocious -- they love having money, and they will get SO frustrated if you spend it frivolously -- they have a soft spot for mischief and for the thieflings, and they're always down for a childish shenanigan (even if you have to persuade them so they can save face) -- a good cuddle makes them so incandescently happy they don't know what to do with themself -- the moment you make them feel okay with showing you things they will show you the cool rock or the weird bug they found -- they loooove messing with people and Will play along immediately if they notice that's what you're doing -- esper is always down for theft and fraud and scamming people --

-- that's esper. point is. resolving esper's internal shame and self-loathing by telling them to embrace bhaal and efface their chance at personhood is less a matter of whether they'll be a good or redeemable person or not (because even if you do get them to reject bhaal they're still a bad person lmao) and more about whether they'll be A Real Person or not. by embracing bhaal, esper concedes that the right thing to do is to cede control to the higher power that determines their use, to which they owe their existence, that their whole personality was a distraction and a mistake from the inexorable pull of their destiny, and fighting against it to begin with was an act of disrespect for which they'll be atoning forever.

and you can't really Tell esper to reject bhaal, either. like, you can, and they will, but it will be because they like you more and they're ceding control of their destiny to you instead. you kind of have to patiently encourage them to do what they want to do and get them to a point where when faced with the decision to embrace or reject, and you ask esper what they want to do, they can honestly say that they would rather be dead than in the hands of a creator that designed them with personhood specifically To Have That Personhood Violated, but they can also look at you and honestly say that you helped them see that they wanted to have a life anyway.

and then bhaal kills them but withers brings them back yay

if you read all this i love u. thank u again for asking!!

[allmusesnobruises]

Disclaimer: I won't be spoiling anything major here but I'm going to be negative about Dragon Age: the Veilguard.

I really wanted to be excited for Dragon Age: the Veilguard, but the first reviews are basically confirming everything I was worried about. Honestly, it hurts a lot, but at the same time I'm a bit relieved to see that even people who played the whole game reach the same conclusions as I do, which are:

1- The Veilguard oversimplifies and sanitizes everything. You're kind or you're mean. You're good or you're bad. No dilemma, no grey. The main antagonists couldn't be less complex or more evil. The factions and the characters we already know are so simplified they sometimes look like caricatures of themselves. Three reviews openly compare the game to Marvel or Disney movies. The companions, of course, all like each other, and I hope you're fine with Rook talking to them like they're kids. You've been a flirt with everyone? Don't worry, as soon as you're engaged in a romance, everyone else will conveniently forget they wanted to bed you a minute ago. The found family trope must be protected at all costs. Which lead me to my second point.

2- God forbid there's anything problematic or nuanced - you know, things that could lead to believable, profound, flawed cultures (or to *shivers* Twitter backlash, I guess). As a result, past storylines are weakened. The assassins that tortured Zevran and made him want to kill himself are now romantic defenders of their city. Dorian and Krem's stories seem to belong to another world, as does Merrill's life goal. Kiss Anders' internal struggles and Solas' mystical tales goodbye: you can now see Lucanis' demon and Solas' memories. And did you know the companions had originally been written with specific sexual orientations? I'm okay with everyone being bi. I'm less okay with everyone's identities being erased for the sake of attracting more players.

3- The Veilguard assumes the player has no litteracy and no memory whatsoever. At best, it assumes you've never played a RPG. Forget about complex political and religious plots. Subtlety is a thing of the past. You're constantly reminded of what just happened or what you need to do. You know, just in case you forgot it five times. Or in case you are so stupid you don't know you just sassed Solas or clicked on a romance option.

4- The world is lifeless and lacks cohesion. The cities are full of people that don't look alive at all -- no resident, no guard gives a damn about what you're doing. The different atmospheres, that the companions are supposed to embody, don't always mesh well together.

5- You're not here to shape the world, you're here to watch. Of course, your past choices don't matter either. I wouldn't have believed it a year ago. Your decisions will shape your companions' stories, and you have another important decision at the end, but that's nearly everything. Moreover, you're told exactly what consequences your (few) choices will lead to. Several times, of course.

6- Gameplay > roleplay. The locations are designed for combat and not for the plot. Roleplaying is openly described by several reviewers as a weak spot. Rook's path is very linear. Different dialogue options usually lead to the same outcome. Don't even think of being anything else than a good guy. Sometimes you can be a little stern, as a treat. But don't worry, everything's already planned out for you. You don't have to worry your pretty little head. And the Maker knows it's pretty, and that the CC is inclusive, because that's all the journalists have been talking about for three months.

I'm just bleeding words at this point but entering the Fade was supposed to be a big deal. Mass Effect devs joining the Veilguard team wasn't supposed to mean the ancient elves had sci-fi equipment. Past games choices having an impact were supposed to be a given. The mysteries of Thedas were not supposed to all have the same explanation or even an explanation at all.

I can look past the unreadable expressions and nonexistent lip-sync painted on clay-plastic faces but I can't look past all of this. But the game is smooth, the world looks beautiful, and the gameplay is interesting, if you like puzzles a concerning amount.

A shame that's what I care about the least.

[biocrafthero]

Nuance in games where you can be "good" or "evil" is like this: you have to choose between saving someone from a mildly perilous situation.

Good option: I help this person. They give me 10 gold. I never see them again and nothing else happens.

Evil option: I am going to not only kick this person off the cliff, I am also going to start a blood feud with their entire family for no reason. There are zero material benefits aside from the game frowning at me and shaking its head as it calls me a bad person.

While I understand wanting to put in this as a way to present the players with branching paths and choices, I think the consequences of evil options should be less drastic than what they tend to be. I don't wanna sound like I'm saying "you should always benefit from being bad" but you also don't always benefit from making good choices sometimes, either. If there's an "evil" faction and you can make evil choices, maybe doing bad stuff makes the bad guys your friends now, idk. I understand the whole "true evil is benign and boring" angle but you can't use that to justify making being good the only viable path idk

[betterbemeta]

re @mousebrass

[context]

Sorry for the delay, I just needed some time to simmer my answer. (for frame of reference, I'm mostly referring to fallout 3 and fallout 4. not new vegas, and I don't know enough about FO76.)

When I said 'Bethesda's fallout will never say no to you', I meant in sort of a structural sense. The gameplay and the storytelling combine in Bethesda's fallout games to do nothing but affirm the player's forward motion.

They do this so well the storytelling is ONLY a function of the gameplay loop: a relay race that progresses with total blindness to what the player actually does so long as they hit the checkpoints that advance things along.

Forward motion is good, we need stories to progress and to get from one event to another, we don't want to run around in circles in a game achieving nothing. And we don't want to encounter a true dead end, or a frustrating 'sorry mario the princess is in another castle!' situation where we feel our prior actions were pointless.

BUT. Hear me out. Negativity, 'being told no', friction along the way, is important to an 'adventure' being more than just an endless gopher loop.

Lucy MacLean IS given objectives in her journey. But the narrative is not her personal facilitator; instead she can't proceed UNLESS she does these increasingly heinous uncomfortable things, okey dokey! She COULD choose not to do them, but she'd 'fail' or thinks she would. Her struggle 'drives the story' rather than styling her actions as intuitively synonymous with 'progress.'

In Bethesda Fallout games. It really doesn't matter what dialog options you choose, progress is inevitable. And blind. If you choose peaceful or guns-blazing approaches. Want to join the fascists? You won't encounter too much content that places pressure on you for doing that. Want to side with the scrappy underdogs? Done, it won't be that much of a strain on your resources. Take the evil option? Except for maybe a few NPCs that could desert you, you won't be constrained by that commitment very much.

It's 'the customer's always right', when that idiom exists basically to facilitate transactions and nothing else.

In fact, the one time in a Bethesda fallout game where meaningful pressure or negative consequences impacted you, in fallout 3, the ending was so unpopular it was retconned in a DLC. But it doesn't have to be this way; there are many times in New Vegas where you might feel conflict or constraints on your actions, a 'no' that makes what you actually choose to do feel more interesting. Like, enough times that I think anyone who's played it, could think of one (their favorite one?) right now. I don't even have to list examples, because the variety is great enough that different people can choose which one feels compelling to them.

Remember when I said we wanted to avoid scenarios where we feel futile, running around in circles, pointless, or obstructed? Well, after a while a lot of Bethesda games become that anyway even if they always take the player's side. People just... give up playing a save usually by level 30. Boundless affirmation towards forward motion, where all paths are THE path and you're the main character of reality, it sucks. it's why Lucy MacLean's wasteland experience will leave you wanting to play fallout and then sighing when you boot up the game that just got a 'remaster' and it's still mostly drudgery. When SHE hits 'quest objectives,' her world doesn't say 'yes! now go do...'

It says "oh, hell no. but you gotta... unless maybe..."

[invertedfate]

Hey different anon here, i always thought floweys actions in the canon was supposed to be a kind of dark reflection of the players own actions, and a parallel with how WE treat video games. I never really thought it had anything to do with trauma, cause like think about it, how many players abuse save states in video games to get away with evil shit? Most of them i would wager, and if you had the power to save, load, and reset, maybe you WOULD start to treat even your own reality like a video game.

Like, is it wrong when flowey does these things when we do the same? Because to him its real but to us its just a game or is it ok for him to do so because it really IS a game.

And flowey DID say he also spared everyone, in the same sentence he said he killed everyone, implying both are things he doesnt really place value in doing, he didnt do it for fun, he did it because he got bored, and we do the exact same things in video games when we play one a bunch, we start to experiment, we start seeing how different "npcs" react to different situations, we start making challenges for ourselves, we start analyzing characters and putting way more thought into their actions then the person who wrote them probably did.

When flowey has that power taken away from him, only then does he start to change from this desensitizing and feel intense emotion like rage when you don't do what he wants, or fear when you're about to kill him, both are caused by him not being used to not being in control, he spent so long being the one who gets to "play" the world that he can't accept a world he's not the "player" in.

Another factor might be that not having a soul inhibits his ability to feel empathy, but thats just headcanon, sorry for this long tangent, i just really like flowey, favorite character in undertale, just wanted to express my thoughts since everyones talking about him.

I think from a metatextual level, Flowey 100% is meant to be a dark mirror of the player, which is likely why his full backstory is only given in geno, since at that point you're treading a similar path as him if you go all the way on that route. That being said, I don't think there's a lack of trauma. At the end of the day, the buttercup plan involved watching his best friend/sibling die, said sibling sharing control of his transformed body (which is implied to be VERY unsettling in appearance), his refusal to take a single SOUL, which led to his death, and then awakening in a new form, unable to connect to others the way he used to and assuming he was broken as a result of it. He did try to take his own life, after all, and only came back from it because he got scared and his determination brought him back. His power allowed him to avoid consequences and grow detached, of course, but there is absolutely room to read trauma as a PART of how he got to be this way. Not the sole factor, but a pretty significant one, especially if you interpret his loss of compassion as an undiagnosed PTSD symptom misunderstood due to toxic positivity culture among monsters. e.g. this idea that their souls are made of love, hope, and compassion and that makes them different/better than humans. Considering how many monsters force smiles to deal with their pain, I legit this mindset is super harmful to all monsters and they might not even realize it. Flowey is a great and complex character, and losing his abilities definitely also impacted his actions, for sure. I definitely am not a fan of the immense woobification of Asriel in the fandom, like, at all, and it's part of why this arc in IF is taking its time to do more character exploration and stuff since in UT, a lot of his depth is locked behind a route the game actively doesn't want you playing.

[sunbeargames]

One of the worldbuilding choices I made almost by accident in my D&D campaign setting is the relationship between mortality, personal growth, and alignment.

Long rumination on this below the cut.

Basically, while I don't use alignment for player characters and most NPCs, I do use it for cosmic beings like celestials, fiends, and fey. This is what separates mortals from the divine; these immortal powers cannot be anything but what they are. Mortals have the capacity to grow and change.

Lately I've been thinking a lot about Agos the Endless, the Archangel of War. He's interacted a bit with the Conquest paladin in my party, Reginald.

Agos has been treating Reginald extremely harshly for some (admittedly despicable) past actions, though Reginald is on a path to self improvement. As Agos explained, Reginald's paladin abilities are not a mark of forgiveness, they are a punishment. Agos is wielding Reginald like a weapon against the BBEG, and that's all he is to Agos. A tool. Something to be deployed towards an end until it breaks.

See, Agos is furious because Reginald didn't have to kill the five innocent people he did in his backstory. Reginald had a choice, and he chose to forever take choice away from others.

Agos never had a choice.

Now, Agos always does what he wants to do, what he feels is right, so in that sense he's always making choices.

But his choices will always be the same. He can't grow. He can't become wiser or more patient or more forgiving. He can learn, and apply what he knows, but he can't internalize lessons.

And Agos KNOWS this. All the cosmic beings do, but he's one of very few that resent it. He's trapped in a prison made of his very being, and to escape it would be to destroy himself.

Imagine that. Think back on a choice you regret. Something that was foolish or selfish or immature, something you wouldn't do now if you found yourself in the same situation. You're a different person than you were then.

Now imagine not being able to change. Knowing that years from now, you'll still act on the exact same impulses that drove you to do something you now regret. Imagine never being able to improve yourself.

Agos is resentful of Reginald, as well as many other mortals, because Reginald has what Agos could never have, and he squandered it. He didn't have to kill those people, but he did. Agos refuses to see Reginald's growth because to do so would be to confront his own deficiency in that area. He wants to condemn Reginald to a life of pure utility, to deny him glory and legacy, because he wants someone else to feel what its like to be unable to outgrow one's mistakes.

It happened mostly on accident, but Agos became such a tragic figure to me. He's a giant mountain of scars with wings like sharpened steel, the embodiment of violence, and that's all he can ever be. He's trapped in an endless war against the forces of evil, and he's never going to become wise enough to tip the scales in favor of heaven. He's never going to become better or stronger or even come to be at peace with it because all those things require real change, which would defy his very nature.

There are ways he could change, shift his alignment. The consequences would echo across reality and he would be fundamentally changed at every level, but it is possible. But that new state wouldn't change either. What's worse, he'll never do it, because if he was capable of overcoming that fear he would have done it already.

I dunno. Just thoughts about this poor diety of conquest, trying desperately to relieve some of the pain of his eternity.

[carabas]

Finally finished BG3, brief rambling under the cut -

Completely charmed by the dead smuggler sisters and that unexpected little 'they didn't deserve this' banter that triggers if you bring Droralias's teddy bear to her corpse - just the fact that there's absolutely nothing prompting you to do that in terms of quests or rewards, no one asked you to deliver her teddy bear to her, but the game devs knew if they put this teddy bear in the game then some of the players were going to do that and they wrote a little companion banter just for this ;_;

I'd gotten used to Tav's half-ilithid look over act three, so I was not prepared for the sheer relief when Tav got his face back at the end - I'm even more happy with the half-illithid path now, it makes for such a visible weight lifted, even more so than the destruction raining from the sky, proof that not just the general tadpoles but your specific tadpole is really dead, it's really over, just by having a before/after sequence -

Ending the game by getting visibly healed!!

Also kind of pleasantly baffled that trusting the Emperor had no other negative consequences aside from that one semi-unwilling appearance change. I was really expecting him to push harder for Tav to go full mind flayer at the end, but there wasn't even a dice roll for it! Even after all these ominous hints about Stelmane, that clear warning not to trust him! He tells you he still has feelings even as a mind flayer, and then you go through his old letters and find his writing about not feeling his feelings anymore now that he's a mind flayer! (The whole backstory with Ansur was cute ;_;) Surely, I thought as I watched him suck Orpheus's brains out, this is going to come back to bite me when I get some kind of evil ending! And yet!! No, nothing. Thanks for the cool powers and tentacle sex and saving the world, dear sweet thrall master who spends the whole game leaching off a captive in this story that's all about freedom and the lack thereof.

I am also completely charmed by how everyone in the epilogue wants to catch up on Tav's epic friendship with Karlach over and above anything else, they are so glad Tav and Karlach have each other, Karlach's smiles brighten the skies of hell, this is the most important relationship to talk about here (romanced Wyll who has also spent the past six months in hell is standing right there, guys. He's the one who pleaded for Karlach to come with us!! I left the choice up to her!!) For a minute I thought there was a bug and I was getting Karlach romance dialogue, but no, some of them did specifically refer to it as friendship, Karlach is just that central to Tav's life. As is right.

[gautiersylvain]

Something that Baldur's Gate 3 does really well is make the characters behave like people. Like real actual people who can be stubborn and sometimes lie, to themselves and to the player, and have conflicting motivations and feelings. This is illustrated particularly well through pivotal moments in companion quests when you have the option to persuade/otherwise influence them.

I was initially inspired by the somehow enduring opinion of some that "it's wrong to persuade Astarion not to complete the ascension ritual" and wanted to explore that idea a little more, especially in contrast to other companions throughout the course of the game.

A. Lae'zel and the Zaith'isk (Act 1)

Anyone who has been to the Githyanki creche and had Lae'zel use the zaith'isk knows that the persuasion checks (all of the checks involved, tbh) are EXTREMELY difficult. We know going in that purification is Lae'zel's highest priority. She does NOT want to get out of the zaith'isk no matter how much it hurts. The first persuasion roll you get to try to convince her to leave the zaith'isk has a whopping DC 30. Alternatively, you can try to roll a DC 30 wisdom roll to show her via the parasite the consequences of remaining in the zaith'isk. I've never succeeded on either myself.

"Get out of there, Lae'zel. You won't survive this anguish"

"Call on your parasite. Show Lae'zel what she stands to lose."

If you fail either of these checks, Lae'zel begins to suffer adverse effects (permanent -2 to certain ability scores) that stack the longer she remains in the device. There are real, in game consequences due to your actions/failed rolls and Lae'zel's unquestioning loyalty to and inherent faith in Vlaakith.

After succeeding on DC 21 wisdom roll to discover that the zaith'isk in fact is not a means of curing the infected, but to kill them, you have the option to try to persuade Lae'zel again to leave the device but with a much lower DC of 21.

"I've seen the truth, Lae'zel. This device doesn't cure - it kills."

So what does this tell us? How does this help us to better understand Lae'zel? We already know that, out of all of our companions, Lae'zel is one of the least likely to lie. She prefers to be direct and efficient. She is unyielding both in her loyalty to the githyanki and to Vlaakith. To try to convince her that the zaith'isk, what Lae'zel refers to as her "right" and "Vlaakith's purity," is actually intended to kill her is a difficult task. So if you're looking for someone who actually doesn't want to do something and you're trying to persuade them otherwise...this is it! That's why the difficulty class of the rolls is so high!

But she can be convinced. Lae'zel is not immune to reason. This can be the first step Lae'zel takes in her journey to defying Vlaakith.

B. Shadowheart and the Nightsong (Act 2)

Shadowheart's confrontation with Aylin in the Shadowfell in Act 2 is one of the highlights of the game for me. There is a DC 30 persuasion check at the beginning of the scene to convince Shadowheart to spare Aylin. Again, not a roll I've ever succeeded on myself. And personally, I find the dialogue option "trust Shadowheart - do not interfere" much more narratively satisfying. After this, the paths diverge slightly.

If you chose to side with the Absolute cultists and raid the grove in Act 1, you have 2 dialogue options to persuade Shadowheart not to kill Aylin with fairly low DCs (I believe they are both 14). Take this with a grain of salt - I haven't verified this myself in game.

"She knows something about you. Spare her, see what she has to say."

If you chose to side with the grove and killed the Absolute cultists in Act 1, you have one persuasion option with a similar DC.

Then we get to my favorite part. To the best of my knowledge, no matter what "evil" or "good" choices you made previously, if you choose to let Shadowheart make her own decision here, she chooses to toss the spear into the shadowfell's depths. She spares Aylin and defies Shar.

This tell us A LOT. Up to this point, Shadowheart has spent much of her dialogue telling the player about her faith and dedication to Shar. She tells us that she wants nothing more than to become a Dark Justiciar. So why, when given the chance to make her own decision by someone she trusts, does she choose to defy Shar? To lose her chance to become a Dark Justiciar? Why would the player need to direct Shadowheart to do something she's told us is all she's ever wanted?

I would argue that, as we see when you allow Shadowheart to decide on her own, it's because she doesn't really want to kill Aylin. I believe that she believes she wanted nothing more than to become a Dark Justiciar, but did that dream originate with her? I find it more likely that it was due to her religious indoctrination, as well as a result of the trauma she endured at the hands of Viconia. The Mother Superior often punished Shadowheart for failing to live up to her expectations, the expectations of Shar. Becoming a Dark Justiciar would prove that she belonged. But as we learn later, she never really belonged. When given the choice, Shadowheart stays true to her own nature rather than trying to appease Shar.

C. Astarion and the Rite of Profane Ascension (Act 3)

A lot has been written about Astarion and his personal quest, understandably so. For this post, I'm going to focus specifically on the persuasion checks you can make after defeating Cazador in battle in Act 3.

The claim I've seen several times is that it's "wrong" to persuade Astarion not to ascend because you have to make a persuasion check to do so which is....an interesting take. Persuasion dialogue options aren't inherently bad or manipulative, they're simply a game mechanic. That being said, let's take a look at the actual dialogue options.

Going in to this scene, we know that Astarion doesn't really want to kill the other spawn - his "siblings" or the spawn who have been captive in the chapel. His main goal is to kill Cazador. But he is tempted by the power he would gain if he completed the ritual in Cazador's stead, which would require sacrificing around 7,000 spawn. We also know that Astarion isn't a "details person" meaning he doesn't tend to think things through. Yes, he would gain power, but what would he lose? What other consequences would result from his decision?

Above all else, during his time as a vampire spawn, Astarion was taught that power keeps you safe. Specifically the power to manipulate and hurt others. The ritual promises power. But in his haste, Astarion risks repeating the cycle that began many many centuries ago, going back well before whoever turned Vellioth (Cazador's master).

First, you're presented with a DC 18 persuasion check that convinces Astarion not to complete the ritual if you're successful.

A high difficulty class, but compared to the DC 30 of Lae'zel's first zaith'isk checks? It's practically nothing. I personally prefer to take a different route, however.

In the same dialogue options, you can choose to make a DC 20 insight check to see why Astarion is still so adamant on performing the ritual - a more difficult check to be sure, but an illuminating one if you succeed. The narrator tells us that Astarion is afraid - he can't see past the power he might gain and "the freedom that power brings." He can't see the forest for the trees, or perhaps he can't see the potential consequences past his desire for (presumed) safety.

If you succeed on that insight check, you get the option to make a slightly easier persuasion check of DC 15. The DCs of skill checks and saving throws aren't arbitrary - the fact that convincing Astarion not to complete the ritual is easier than the checks discussed earlier gives us some insight into Astarion's mindset.

"I know you think this will set you free, but it won't. This power will trap you, just like it trapped Cazador."

This has never felt manipulative to me. To me, it comes across as the player pointing out to Astarion that power comes with a price, one that he might not be willing to pay, one that he might not be considering in the moment due to fear and desperation.

So what can we make of this? Given that spawn Astarion later thanks the player for, in his own words, saving him, he seems genuinely happy to not have gone through with the ritual. He also says that he almost lost everything, including himself. Astarion seems to realize, to some extent, that completing the ritual and killing all of those people would have changed him - costing him what really makes him him. His vulnerability, his silliness, his joy. By persuading Astarion not to ascend, you teach him that the power from the ritual (that "never having to fear anyone again") isn't worth the cost. That he is enough just the way he is.

Going into the fight with Cazador, Astarion is clearly of two minds. He desires the power offered by the ritual, but he also feels responsible for the fate of many of the people trapped in the crypt and doesn't truly wish them (further) harm. He is standing on a precipice, unsure of whether or not to stumble backwards into old habits and isolation or to leap into the terrifying unknown of freedom. Astarion has also spent 200 years unable to make choices for himself - and he is now presented with a huge choice that will affect thousands and change the course of his own life forever. Ultimately, it's up to the player, the influence your character has on him, that encourages him to either continue or break, as Astarion puts it, "the cycle of power and terror."

[depressedandasian]

Minthara fans being upset about how other people play their games is becoming irritating. Larian literally just patched in a glitch that they removed before, it wasn't like they changed her story. You are not blocked from recruiting her via murdering refugees.

It's funny to see people who say shit like "They're just pixels" when other players didn't want to murder a group of people who were blatantly marginalized and homeless for one companion at the consequence of losing potentially four, get upset when people cheese the game to recruit Minthara. Suddenly, you have to treat Minthara with utmost reverence.

"She was the only true evil companion." There is no set evil path in BG3. You can do heinous things with or without her, and recruiting her doesn't lock you into a bad run. Astarion, Lae'zel, and Shadowheart will stay with you even if you do commit horrible actions. AND once again, you can still side with her against the grove, Larian did not cut that from the game.

[mystickittenfang710]

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[fuckitwebhaal]

on the topic of the “evil” path in bg3 being unsatisfying it’s like. I do sympathize w/ ppl who go that route and are unhappy w/ the amount of content lost….but at the same time I can’t help laughing bc it really feels like they want to be able to slaughter a bunch of refugees or whatever without suffering any major game-changing consequences. and maybe it’s mean of me to say this but tbh i feel like a genuinely evil pc would not gaf abt losing companions anyway, so idk why some players complain about it so much. that’s just kind of what happens when you’re a stab-happy maniac :/

I look at it two ways. From a game dev perspective, yeah, the “evil” route is unsatisfying because there is no considerable difference in content besides things lost. It would be interesting to have seen something fleshed out where you could actually ally with the Cult of the Absolute and make really self-serving decisions, etc etc. So, to that end, I get it.

From a meta or roleplaying perspective, though, I agree. This is a game about power and control, and those moments are sacrificing morality for an advantage over everyone else. You can’t be surprised if good people turn and walk or if people don’t want to help you because, well, they’re also playing their roles.