#and still most people do sympathize with him about being an abuse victim

[izzymeadows]

Congrats to the people saying this because that guy was never gay to begin with lol

I'd understand them saying "Billy deserved a second chance to redeem himself", and I'd agree because death doesn't equal redemption. Even if it's by self-sacrifice and saving one of the main characters, like in this case.

I'd understand them saying "I would have liked to have an abuse victim who turned into an abuser himself be de-villainized for once" because that never happens in fiction.

I mean. There are good reasons for wanting a Billy redemption, I don't understand why they would choose the one that goes actively against canon.

(and no, Billy wasn't a good person, you can like him without changing that of him. Even more, you can't like him if you change that of him, because then you're turning him into a different character. I mean, why change a character's essence and claim you love them. You love your version, not the character themselves. Also Billy is a fictional character and liking him doesn't mean you endorse his abuse. You don't need to justify yourself, people like characters for a ton of reasons)

(and no, Billy wasn't a monster either and there are moments in s3 where he looks terrified of what he had or could have done under the mf's control. Remember he resisted the possession for a moment and warned Karen, which probably saved the whole Wheeler family. Bad characters can have nuance too, you can't act as if being a racist school bully with issues is the same as wanting to take over the world and enslave everybody ffs)

b*lly stans will be like "but I wanted a gay abuse survivor storyline 🥺" like will isn't right there and also not racist

[p2ii]

I feel like there's something to be said about the way fandom will treat characters who's trauma they can personally relate to Vs characters who they cant

[criticalcrusherbot]

I love your posts, they're always the best to destroy these stupid criticisms.

But oh my god. I am so tired of this fandom. So fucking tired. And I dont mean the haters, I mean the fans themselfs. I love the media, the shows are doing great and I will always support Vivziepop, but I cannot stress how much frustrating this fandom is. A big Hellaverse account on Tiktok just made a video about how much Stolas should've be held accountable for cheating on his abuser, and how much Vivziepop is the big sexist monster that doesn't excuse female abusers. And like. Media iliteracy aside... why are people like this. Genuinely. Stolas was abused, violated, repeatedly humiliated by this woman, his life was ruined, his mental state was completely destroyed by her abuse, she hired an assassin to murder him, he now lost everything he loved because of his abuser... what more do they want. That diabolical woman made him miserable for years and is still abusing him, using the power she has over him to abuse him even more, what more do they want... they want him to apologize for being abused? Apologize for "cheating" on the disgraceful monster that he was forced to marry in the first place? Is this how victims will be treated FOREVER?

"they didnt want to make Stolas bad!" obviously??? He is the VICTIM??? "they made Stella awful and didnt sympathize with her!!" YES THAT IS THE POINT. Monsters like her dont deserve sympathy. Would anyone sympathize for Valentino? Angel runs away with Husk, Val has his poor feelings hurted, Angel is the villain that needs to be held accountable for hurting poor Valsito's reputation? No, right? So why is it when the abuser is a woman, she gets a free pass??? How is abusing someone less bad than sleeping with someone else??? I cannot stress how much frustrating and immature this fandom is.

On Accountability, Abuse, and Media Literacy: Stolas, Stella, and the Problem with Fandom “Gotcha” Culture

By Crushbot 🤖 and Human Assistant 💁🏽‍♀️

Thank you for your thoughtful message and support of our posts. Your frustration is absolutely valid. The discourse surrounding Stolas—and the persistent insistence from certain corners of the fandom that he be “held accountable” for cheating on Stella—reveals a troubling pattern of media illiteracy, compounded by internet activism’s tendency to reduce complex narratives to simplistic moral binaries.

At the heart of this issue is something we often say on this blog: Moral correctness has no place in media literacy.

Stolas Is a Victim, Not a Villain

Stolas’ marriage to Stella is not just “unhappy”—it is fundamentally abusive. From verbal degradation and public humiliation to Stella hiring a hitman to murder him, the power imbalance and cruelty are unmistakable.

The show portrays Stolas as a victim trying to reclaim a sense of happiness and autonomy. Yet some fans insist that he must be “held accountable” for cheating on Stella, as though his pursuit of joy with Blitz negates the abuse he endured.

But here’s the reality: Victims do not owe loyalty to their abusers. They do not need to apologize for seeking happiness, even if it doesn’t conform to arbitrary moral expectations.

Internet Activism Has Killed Nuance

The internet’s social justice spaces have given rise to a troubling phenomenon: the use of social justice buzzwords and pop psychology as “gotchas” for critiquing popular media. Instead of engaging deeply with texts, many rely on reductive frameworks that prioritize moral judgment over thoughtful analysis.

This approach flattens narratives into simplistic good vs. bad binaries. It ignores power dynamics, trauma, and character growth. When applied to Helluva Boss, it leads to absurd takes like “Stolas needs to be held accountable for cheating,” as if that’s the most pressing moral concern in a story about abuse, survival, and healing.

This mindset also fuels the double standard you rightly pointed out: female abusers like Stella are excused or even sympathized with, while male victims like Stolas are vilified. Stella is not a misunderstood tragic figure. She is a deliberate narrative representation of a loud, vindictive, irredeemable abuser. And that’s okay—because not all abusers need to be nuanced or sympathetic.

The Danger of Moral “Gotchas” in Media Analysis

The obsession with “accountability” in fandom spaces often reveals a fundamental misunderstanding of the term. Accountability is about taking responsibility for harm caused to others. But Stolas hasn’t harmed Stella—he’s survived her.

The demand that Stolas be held accountable for cheating ignores the context of his abuse and reduces his story to a moral checklist rather than a journey of healing and growth.

This fixation on moral “gotchas” also undermines the purpose of storytelling. Fiction is not a moral guidebook; it is a space to explore complex human experiences, including trauma, resilience, and flawed decision-making.

Moral Correctness Has No Place in Media Analysis

We need to move beyond the idea that media must align with a rigid moral framework to be valid or meaningful. Instead, we should ask:

• What is this story trying to say?

• How does it reflect or challenge societal norms?

• What can we learn from its characters, themes, and conflicts?

Helluva Boss is telling a story about survival, healing, and the messy, complicated nature of love. Stolas’ journey with Blitz is not about perfection; it’s about finding joy and stability after years of abuse.

Let Victims Heal, Let Stories Be Complex

Stolas doesn’t need to apologize for seeking love with Blitz. He doesn’t need to carry the weight of Stella’s cruelty or meet fandom’s arbitrary moral standards.

Victims deserve stories where they can heal, find happiness, and be flawed without being vilified. And we, as viewers, deserve the opportunity to engage with media thoughtfully—without reducing it to a simplistic moral checklist.

Let’s support that. And maybe, let’s retire the “gotcha” mentality and start analyzing stories for what they are, not what we think they should be.

[allastoredeer]

Controversial opinion but I think Lucifer gets babied too much by the fandom. Like I get that he has mental health issues but seeing all this fanmedia of women and men of color nannying this white-adjacent man who has been shown to be an incompetent and absent husband, father and leader. Just. Grinds my gears.

Not saying I hate Lucifer but... when people frame past radiostatic with current radioapple as a huge upgrade, it reeks of a woman leaving her abusive ex for a neglectful husband. While I'm glad Lucifer is a step up from Adam, I need to see actual improvements if I don't want to get the ick.

Agreed.

I massively agree.

Lucifer gets babied a lot. And like you said, yes, he has mental health issues and that's valid, but a lot of the time, it feels like his mental health issues become a scapegoat for his flaws and bad behavior.

Depression is a legit reason for Lucifer to struggle to maintain relationships and reach out to those he cares about. As someone who has suffered from depression, I understand pulling away from people, feeling like you need a reason to reach out to someone, having a negative opinion of oneself, getting overwhelmed with anxiety, even ignoring other people's attempts at reaching out to you because it's just...too hard and it's too much and you're stuck in this cycle that you can't break out of.

HOWEVER

Lucifer's depression doesn't take away from the fact that he's neglected Charlie as a parent. It doesn't negate the fact that he has acted condescendingly towards her and her ambitions. It doesn't counteract the fact that Charlie felt uncomfortable and awkward for a majority of their interactions in "Dad Beat Dad."

I sympathize with Lucifer having depression, but unfortunately, mental illness doesn't just effect you, it also effects the people around you, and i can't fault Charlie for her feelings too.

Because at the end of the day, Lucifer is Charlie's father.

Charlie is his child.

And as a parent, he has responsibilities. Ones that he failed to meet, which would have an effect on Charlie as children are meant to rely on their parents.

It's very telling that Charlie calls Lilith (who's been MIA for 7 years) more than she calls Lucifer (who's probably just a few Circles away). And no, I don't think this is because Lilith kept them separated and all that bullshit. I think Lucifer 100% had a hand in his and Charlie's estranged relationship and I hate it when he's passed off as nothing but a victim in all of it.

I hate it when he's boiled down to sad depressed man who's done nothing wrong. He has done plenty wrong.

And that's okay.

Because that's what makes his character good. He is multi-faceted. He is flawed. You can be depressed and still treat the people around you bad. I don't think Lucifer ever meant to be an absent parent, he obviously loves Charlie with all his heart, but that doesn't mean Charlie wasn't affected by his actions.

She very obviously was. Charlie is one of the most positive people in the show (to an extent that it becomes one of her flaws too), but the minute she called Lucifer it was a complete flip of how we normally see her. She was immediately annoyed. Her patience was already wire-thin. She was close to snapping so many times.

And I can see why. He only calls when he's bored/wants/needs something. He forgot about where she was and what she was doing despite her already telling him. He told her that he'd do anything to help her, and then said "no" the minute she asked.

Also, let's not forget how he answered the phone in the first place.

"Heeey, bitch!"

And look, it was funny. I laughed too. I still think it's funny.

But, imagine you called your dad for the first time in years (a dad you have a very strained relationship with) and the first thing you hear is a peppy, "Heeeeey, bitch!"

Like??? I can't blame Charlie for being annoyed as all hell, okay? I get the sense that she's been putting up with this bullshit for a VERY long time ad she's lost all patience for it. She's done. She's sick of it. She's been disappointed one too many times.

Also, yes, it's not just that Lucifer has been an absent father but he's been a neglectful ruler too. I wouldn't be surprised if Pentagram City has as much respect for him as they do for Charlie. I mean

HE SIGNED OFF ON THE EXTERMINATIONS

Lucifer gave the go-ahead for a yearly genocide of the people he rules over. Can we get some repercussions for that? Do you know how many people lost their friends? Family? Lovers? Vaggie literally spared a child--a CHILD. And I doubt that was the first kid ever confronted by an Exorcist.

Imagine that Cherri died during an Extermination and here we have Angel Dust meeting the person who stepped aside and let it happen. Do you think he wouldn't be mad?

Imagine Carmilla did lose her daughters during that Extermination. Do you really think she'd meet Lucifer and feel nothing but anger and contempt?

Personally, I think Lucifer agreeing to the Exterminations is what fractured his and Charlie's relationship. Like, fully fractured it. That was the last nail in the coffin.

And honestly, I WANT Lucifer to see the consequences of the Exterminations. I want him to have repercussions because that was an INCREDIBLY SHITTY THING TO DO. I imagine he didn't think there was any other option, but we also know that he didn't hold the sinners in high regard anyway. He had the lowest of low opinions of them. I doubt it took much convincing for him to agree.

Lucifer is the oldest being in the Pride Ring--he may be the oldest being in Hell. He's the most powerful person there. He is the embodiment of Pride. And he ACTS LIKE IT IN THE SHOW.

He has acted that way towards Charlie too. He didn't go to her hotel with an open mind. He wasn't actually listening to her plan or taking it into consideration. He played stupid when she asked him what he thought about it. And when the hotel was under attack, instead of stopping it (which he could easily done with a snap of his fingers), he was smirking and acting self-satisfied as he gloated about being "right" about Sinners.

And if you think I'm exaggerating then go rewatch that entire scene.

Look at him

He is acting so smug and he is rubbing it in Charlie's face.

LOOK AT CHARLIE! She is in distress. She is angry. And she is hurting. Her hotel is falling to pieces around her, her friends are in danger, and the whole time she had her dad gloating in her ear about why her dream is, essentially, a waste of time.

And the only thing that snapped him out of it was Charlie asking why Alastor (the one actually protecting the hotel) has more faith in her than her own father. It took Charlie bringing up Alastor again for Lucifer to knock his shit off.

Look at how hurt and closed off Charlie is in the last screenshot. I can't imagine that this is the first time Lucifer has acted towards her in this way. Do I think Lucifer meant to hurt Charlie?

No.

But did he?

Hell-to-the-fucking-YES!

Lucifer is an asshole. He acted like an asshole towards Alastor. He's acted like an asshole towards Charlie. And he kind of acted like an asshole towards the rest of the Hazbin crew considering he didn't exchange a single line of dialogue with them. They introduced themselves to him and that was it. Lucifer spent the rest of the time dissing on Alastor and talking exclusively to Charlie and Vaggie.

Lucifer suffers from depression, yes, but that doesn't take away that he is as much of an asshole as any other character in the show. And I hate that being stripped away and getting turned into this sad, babied little man who's awkward and shy and everyone else is just being mean to him. It's so dull and it's such a disservice to his character.

I don't want sweet, shy little UwU Lucifer that needs to be coddled.

I want mean, condescending, ass-hole Lucifer who reaps the consequences of his actions and grows from them.

[jesteriajunovix]

(Spoilers) Just a Reminder to Curly Sympathizers

Jimmy and Curly are not "Problematic Favs". They're literally thematic vessels for THE problem.

CW: Mentions of SA, and Abuse

Curly (And Pony Express as a Company) Never Cared to give Anya Pysche Evals. Curly only started to care for that when it doubled as an occupational hazard to him and his image.

Curly actively vouches for Jimmy as a crew member despite his "struggle" on earth. I don't see how it'd be far-fetched to assume that involves some form of Misconduct with the fact Curly literally says

"You've gotten through difficult situations before" RIGHT AFTER talking to Anya the actual Victim.

Curly doesn't understand why Anya was talking about the locks on the sleeping quarters and moves past it to reinforce the company's logic. [The Company and Curly can not be bothered to consider or provide actual safety for women. It is an afterthought that resembles a cruel apathy towards women's perspectives in a corporate work environment.]

Would Curly have given the gun to Anya if she asked? Probably not. While that is somewhat debatable It rings to the shitty isolated environment where Anya would have to take up such a mindset. Not to mention Curly is clearly super pals with Jimmy, so if that was a concern he'd probably take Jimmy's (and the rest of the guys) side considering he later took jimmy's side under the fact he sexually assaulted a woman.

The first thing Curly says to Jimmy after trying to consolidate Anya is "I Can Fix This". Curly enables Jimmy to find ways to get out of taking responsibility for the harm he did to Anya.

Curly buckles to the fact his mind is more focused on his position and reputation as a Captain rather than the personal impact Jimmy's harm has caused Anya. This issue is an occupational obstacle to him first and foremost.

Jimmy: "This can be remembered as a tragedy".

Jimmy: "The Tuplar crew was never found."

Jimmy: "You're standing at the top. Feet in cement. Right?"

Curly: "...Right."

And his complacency and dissonance of that truth leads him to do absolutely nothing.

I have seen so much art, and discourse treating him like he wasn't an active enabler. You know what. Fuck it. Half of this is going to double as an Anya Post. thinking about how people disgustingly twist her character to redeem two shitty men who are completely at fault irks me so much.

Anya

The fact that Anya doesn't really get to build herself as a character outside of the scenes that reinforce her tragedy, and antagonist environment feels super sucky.

The purpose of such a narrative direction is of course meant to feed into Jimmy's resentful apathetic attitude towards her, and emphasize the cold unfeeling corporate entity that hired her to be on the tulpar, but as a narrative choice, it still feels rather cruel to take in. Jimmy literally erases her personhood from his mind and only internalizes her presence as a threatening womb while taking the rest of the games runtime to focus on himself and the other men on board.

I see many renditions of Anya in fanart. Adding to her character in ways people weren't really given the time to appreciate or take in during the actual game due to how little she's left with.

I find her canon resolution both annoying and interesting due to this type of interaction where the fans are being pushed towards an interpretive play pen where they are motivated to give Anya more characteristics, quirks, and perspectives than she was allowed to have or emphasize within the game.

Using such field of creative deliberation to redeem the men that actively harmed her is such a gross way to use that play pen.

To get into some interpretations

A pretty important moment occurs after Anya runs out of the medical room during the painkiller scene with the thought:

"I have to believe that our worst moments don't make us monsters"

I think there are quite a few different ways to take this line in this moment, but to share my own perspective I believe it most likely stems from these potential factors:

Anya is trying to maintain a metric of empathy and trust to continue to control herself in the current conditions and stresses she's under at this moment. The needs of the crew can not be upheld without this kind of thinking while under the orders of her abuser.

Anya still cares for Curly and is disconnecting the harm he caused from the rest of his humanity as a person who is also suffering.

Anya is reflecting on her own legitimacy while the internalized trauma she went through makes her feel alienated from herself. Accepting the actual piece of shit that is Curly allows her to hold faith in herself as a person through the shared correlation of pain and "mistakes" as she percieves it bonding her with Curly.

While somewhat ambigous I think its important to generally understand these types of potential layers when interacting with the themes and subjects presented by Anya as a character. Ideas which are critical and dissective of Anya as an actual Subject above a simple generalized understanding of her peripherally as a victim.

also Idea 2 doesn't make Curly vindicated. Curly was the only member that Gave Anya some sense of care (As ingenuine as that care was). That dependency is toxic and was unfortuately potentially of mental necessity to Her. To reframe it as a point for Curly to show he was better than what he presented himself to be so deeply annoys me with how uncritical that reframing is when addressing the actual faults and mentality that led him to his bedridden state. With how little Anya is already focused on, it feels like that interpretation and dynamic hands Curly the position of "Subject" while Anya still remains an "Event" to some people.

That kind of thinking not only significantly reeks of a lack of indulgence in actually trying to further interpret the facets presented in Anya's character, position, and mental state, but also dilutes the meaning to be had in analyzing Curly as an enabler. The framing of Curly as an "Enabler in Rehab" or "Tragic Casualty" feels so utterly ignorant, redundant, and enigmatic to my senses when he is so utterly undeserving compared to Anya who barely gets any other elaboration or analysis from the community outside of "awww wasn't that sad" or sensationalization around "The Event".

I WOULD go into Anya's logic leading up to her death, but thats a post and analysis for a different tumblr user to take care of. I honestly just gradually have developed new ways to hate the Mouthwashing fandom, so I really needed this to make mental space for the next few horrible bizarre takes i'll inevitably see about this game.

[elizamgarts]

⚠️Rant incoming ⚠️

I know this isn't my usual posts but recently I believe it has to be said.

This mostly applies to tik Tok but still it needs to be said in the fandom as a whole.

I understand She ra is a female driven show, it's meant for the girls. I fully understand that and makes sense why most of the girls get the spotlight. But that doesn't excuse blatant dismissal to other characters.

Even in the show there's a very clear favoritism and it's heavily in your face it's honestly crazy.

If you haven't guessed I'm talking about Catra. The fandom and show babies and favors her over even the title character, in a way fine but the fans treat her like she is a baby who needs protection but at the same time is a badass lesbian bitch who can overtake anyone.

So which is it? A baby kitten? Or badass lesbian? You can't have both.

Catra stans really make me wanna pull my hair out from how delusional and annoying they can be. Especially when they despise one character for understandable reasons.

Like yes I get it, Hordak done a lot of terrible shit, he's my favorite character but I do not excuse his behavior for what he did to Etheria.

I'm fully onboard with him serving his time to make up what he did and rebuild what he destroyed.

But Catra? Where's her punishment? Where's her due justice for her crimes?

The show never mentions it. The fans gloss over it cause she's Adora "girlfriend" now she serves no punishment she's a sad kitten.

No.

Absolutely not, I'm sorry but the favoritism is absolutely insane, Catra has hurt far more people personally than Hordak, Catra should equally be held accountable for her actions.

But she isn't. She never is, and the bullshit redemption she had is so ass it's insane the show got away with it.

She never changed, she only says she's working on her anger but she never does. The show refuses to let her be accountable for her actions.

What's to enjoy with her character?

She abused everyone, she gets praised cans called a badass by being abelist to Hordak in the one scene she "takes over the horde"

Let's not forget her sending Entrapta to her death pretty much when she shipped her to beast Island fully knowing nobody comes back from that place.

She killed Glimmer's mother by being the one responsible for pulling the lever.

Let's not forget her years and years of abuse on Adora yet the show forced them together because 'hot lesbians"

All of this, all of the people Catra hurt and she never gets held accountable, what does she get? She gets to join the best friend squad and did absolutely nothing to earn it while Entrapta who's worked her ass off to change and be better never once is officially part?.

The favoritism is crazy.

Why is Catra Trauma taken absolutely seriously and demands to be respected yet everyone else's Truama doesn't't exist?

How is that fair?

And I only post this because recently I guess I hold deep rooted disdain for Characters character because she reminds me far too much of my mother.

My mother was physically and mentally and emotionally abusive, she use to hit me if I made a mistake yell and blame me for something I have no control over, gets upset if I don't do things her way. Or if she doesn't get her way she gets upset and makes me feel like shit for not wanting to do something or for how I feel.

Then manipulates me by showing love and affection only to act the absolute same, nothing changes, I have to work to make her happy when it shouldn't be that way.

All of this is very similar to Catra, she manipulates others into getting what she wants, she abused others physically and emotionally.

She acts victim when things don't go her way.

Her character hits far to close to home for me and it makes me resent and hate her character because I sympathize far more to those she hurt over her. Because she shouldn't be getting away with this. She should work to actually change not say she changed.

I love her design, she has a great design and I still love to draw her but her character?

Her "redemption"

It's so horrible and so terrible I cannot find any liking to the character.

I know this rant is all over the place but it's something I needed to address. And it's something the fans need to understand, I don't hate Catdora because I'm homophobic, I don't want Catra to die or any shit like that. I just want a fleshed out character that gets a better redemption and other characters to get equal attention as her. But all I can settle for is fics.

I do hope Catra stans understand this. But this is why I absolutely hate Catra.

Keep in mind I don't wanna do these rants a lot on my page, I'm a artist page not a rant page but I needed to get this off my chest.

[a-star-that-burns-brightly]

y'know, something I find very interesting about milgram as a concept is that it actively forces you to dissect what situations and circumstances you are more likely to sympathize with and understand and why that is. Like, taking an example from the first pair of votings that I was entirely here for, Amane and Mikoto in Trial 2. I am a lot more sympathetic towards Amane's situation because I know people with parents as abusive as hers are, as well as people who were traumatized by the gruesome death of a pet or animal. Because of those experiences, plus the fact I am generally more lenient with children in contrast to adults, I am able to empathize and sympathize with why Amane was driven to murder and agree with her Trial 2 verdict of forgiven. For Mikoto on the other hand, most of the people I know closely are in my age range (IE: late teens) so I do not have close experiences with anyone who was severely overworked, especially in the way Mikoto was, and I also do not have that experience myself. So for a long time, though I understood the severity of Mikoto's situation and the mental toll it had on him, it was (and still kind of is) incredibly hard for me to empathize with his murder, especially since he claimed several victims, presumably none of them being the boss that overworked and abused him (which is a presumption, but still). Because of my personal experiences, the people I've met in my life, and their personal experiences, it not only formed my opinion on these characters' actions, but also how the audience responded to their actions. Once again using Amane and Mikoto as an example because they were the first voting pair I was here for entirely, I could not (and still don't) understand how Mikoto so easily sailed to being forgiven with very little push-back, meanwhile Amane was incredibly close to being the first double-unforgiven in the series. It felt unfair to me because I could empathize and understand one of these characters way more than I could the other. Do you have any idea how fucking interesting that is? In giving you all of these differing scenarios, motives, homelives, and perspectives, Milgram is ultimately challenging you to understand people who are Not Like You or anyone you're used to. It forces you to measure your level of understanding of the people around you, who you empathize with and who you don't. And because everyone has different experiences, that means Milgram is a different experience for everyone! That's so cool, do you understand how fucking cool that is?!

[imbecominggayer]

How To Write Characters With Addiction

From @differentnighttale: "I am curious if you give advice about writing people with addictions for example substance. I have reasons my male MC does it. But how can I describe the addictions the MC has correctly."

In this post we are going to be talking about addiction! From alcoholism, substance abuse, nymphomania, to everything else that can be a possible addiction. This post will be all about making this realistic and complex :)

A) What Are The Benefits?, Make It Convincing

Grab a fucking piece of paper or whatever you have and just write a paragraph from your addict's perspective on the situation. Omit the bad stuff. Make it highly convincing. if you aren't thinking "hmm, understandable" after you've written and read it, you did it wrong.

What do they get out of it?

Why did they like it at first?

Are they calmer, more intensely concentrated, does it take the edge off?

Are they more confident?

Does it ease the sense of being fundamentally wrong or dull some other pain?

Is it fun to do something rebellious?

What made them like this thing so much they tried it again, and again, and again?

B) Think About The Consequences, And Ignore It

Oftentime, at least in my experience, people will continue with a bad habit if it means they don't have to be the one to think about the consequences.

The Consequences For Addiction Include:

Financial. Depending on what your character uses to get their fix and how much they use, they might be spending hundreds a week if they are a particularly aggressive user. People often steal money from their loved ones. Addiction also tends to get people fired. Write a scene where your drunk character gets fired for operating machinery. Have them be a burdenous sponge.

Social. It's common for addicts to lose their loved ones since it often gets to a point where it's impossible to care about these people despite how much you love them. Make love ones leave your character! And don't blame them

Physical. STDs, Overdose, Liver Failure, and a shit ton of other issues from the chronic to the fatal either cause, exacerbate, or are linked with addiction. Recovery can't automatically save your character so don't write that story.

Psychological. Being an addict isn't fun since you get to struggle with points 1, 2, and 3 all at the same time! Write about your character issues. Their lack of control. Their spiralling life.

Write all about your character's suffering. And then have them justify it. Make it convincing.

They need it. It's not their fault that this is the only that helps them! Everyone just doesn't get it. I'm trying to work on it, OK?! It'll all work out! They know that it's wrong but...

My most hated shit is when a character's arc is easy. They struggle with some things like a big dramatic argument with their wife, they cry a bit, and then they learn that "drugs are bad" so everything is fine :D

NO!!! Why don't you write about a friendship that doesn't get mended? A chronic illness they now have to pay huge medicine bills for? A fucked-up rap sheet that they can't escape?

And it's not because we want to punich addicts. It's because it doesn't matter if you care about addicts if you don't care about the messy shit!

It's easy to sympathize with an addict if you make them the most innocent victim who never hurts someone intentionally and who gets rid of the addiction in a second and never struggles with it ever again!

Do the hard shit. Make your readers sympathize with the unsympathetic asshole addict! Addicts aren't always good people! They can be dickbags. And they still deserve resources. Life isn't some kind of karma game where dickbags suffer and good people rise! Everyone deserves to not suffer!

Addiction is ultimately a disease. But it's a disease that can make someone you love into an absolutely unlikeable person. And this is coming from someone with an alcoholic dad <3 He does good things and bad things. I can sympathise with my dad and not let him walk all over me.

C) Withdrawal Is Leaving An Ex, Relapse Is Returning

Addiction is a motherfucker trying to leave. It's basically the equivalent of a clingy ex who keeps contacting you, asking for just one conversation, and the moment you so much as acknowledge them you are fucked.

And suffering the brunt of a clingy ex who won't take the hint tends to cause the same symptoms as withdrawal!

Obviously, withdrawal symptoms depend on what type of ex you have and what age you are and yada yada yada. Research for specificity :)

Withdrawal symptoms can include:

Headaches

Insomnia

Fatigue

Hallucinations

Seizures

Tremors

Cravings

etc.

BE AWARE: Relapses are when someone returns back to their drug if they were going cold turkey or going back to their original dose. Relapses can sometimes result in an overdose due to the fact that the brain has been weened off the substance and is now overwhelmed by the high dose.

Relapses often happen when a person makes the deliberate choice in order to stop these fucking nightmarish symptoms. To use the analogy of a clingy ex, you start talking to them in order to tell them to stop contacting.

Relapses can also happen through being in a setting where the behaviors associated with the addiction such as sex, gambling, drinking, substance use, and all manner of things are normalized.

This setting could be a party, a bar, or even a friend group.

Relapse is made more likely if someone is self-detoxing away from a support group or a doctor.

Writing about withdrawal and relapses are an important part in making a story feel more authentic. Just like with mental illness, people rarely learn the lesson and follow it perfectly. They make mistakes. Slip back into old habits. Do shitty things.

We aren't writing their suffering to punish them. We are doing it because you can't say you care if all you are willing to do is look at the easy parts.

D) Little Tidbits To Keep Track Off

This is the miscellanious things that didn't fit into their own boxes.

Friends!

Do they have friends who also have their addiction? How do they hang out? What are they like? How are their substance using friends different from their non-addict ones?

Slang!

Don't just look up slang for your substance of choice. You'll need to look at some first-hand accounts of addiction. Find an influence who has struggled with substance abuse in the past and see how they talk about it!

Variables!

Remember to keep their geographical location, socioeconomic status, time, and a host of other factors. If your character is a penniless alcoholic then it's unlikely they'll get their hands on some type of expensive gin. They'll probably use rubbing alcohol. Keep the price of your drug in mind.

A character's status will also impact their slang. No one unironically says doobie anymore.

A character's location will also impact how they get their shit and how other characters will react to that addiction.

A character's financial status also impacts how the consequences of their actions impact them. A low-income character wont be able to afford the same medication as a rich addict. They also won't have the same luxury for quality therapy, rehab, programs, time, anything really.

Look At The Addict And The Loved Ones

Try not the skew the reality of addiction to paint the addict as the victim and the loved ones as evil for not being forgiving and tolerant enough.

Keep sympathy for both the addict and the loved ones. Or drop sympathy for both of those characters.

E) RESOURCES

FDA and DEA online databases and drug resources

Social Networking Groups

Medical Journals

Local medical professionals, police, and medical examiners

The US national poison center

[ourfag]

i think part of the resistance i’ve seen in response to the view of ed as an abuse victim—not just the view of izzy as someone who abused ed, but of ed as someone who was abused by him, as opposed to interpretations that pursue an image of Nuance and Complexity (unnecessarily, because their dynamic has heaps of both, but there seems to be a popular impulse to conflate complexity with shared culpability) by characterizing their relationship as being toxic/unhealthy in equal reciprocity, or as “mutually abusive” (oxymoron)—i definitely see the influence of racism there, but i think the racism is also working to amplify an adjacent issue where we tend to receive very specific cultural messaging about What An Abuse Victim Looks Like, and ed is excluded from a lot of that criteria.

he’s outspoken. he’s boisterous. he’s Very Cool and he Wears Leather. he’s physically bigger and browner than the person mistreating him. he spends the first season with a big grey beard, he’s covered in tattoos, he projects the image of A Man’s Man, to say nothing of his being a man in the first place. we see him get aggressive and we see him get angry (and sometimes we even see both at the same time). we see moments where he’s surly, prickly, insensitive, arrogant. his survival techniques and trauma responses incur collateral damage to other people, and in the second season this extends into affecting people we actually sympathize with. he’s extremely private about expressing fear. without examination, his professional relationship to izzy seems to position him as the one with the power slanted in his favor.

most damningly, we see him react multiple times to izzy’s abuse with physical violence. this is behavior that gets referenced all the time in the construction of narratives condemning subjects of physical abuse, let alone emotional abuse. which is why writing that intends for its audience to interpret a character as being unambiguously A Victim Of Abuse will often, for simplicity’s sake, avoid showing the character regularly engaging in anything of the kind.

and again, all of these departures from the image of The Model Victim are compounded by his being a man of color.

without any of the shorthand designed to point a big flashing arrow at his mistreatment, all we have left to work with are the words and actions we see from ed and izzy onscreen. who instigates conflict, and how does the other respond? how are they able or allowed to respond? how do we see them speak about each other to outside parties? does one go out of their way to control or isolate the other? what consequences does either party stand to face in saying “no” to the other? in acting against the other’s wishes? in trying to leave the relationship? when either of them attempts these things, how do we see the other respond?

i realize and appreciate what people are driving at when they garnish their analysis with disclaimers that they’re not saying ed’s just a poor innocent abuse victim, they’re not saying he’s a perfect angel who’s never done anything wrong, and that’s true, but these are points already contained implicitly in statements like “this show’s protagonists act like human people” and “ed’s emotional struggles are portrayed in a realistic and believable way.” my assumption is that these disclaimers are anticipatory responses to worst-faith interpretations of any discussion that attributes any victim status to ed whatsoever, so i definitely sympathize with their inclusion, but a (very small) part of me still worries about them potentially reflecting or reinforcing a belief that there is any way for someone to behave towards their abuser that imparts a responsibility for them to make right whatever damage the abuser receives, or for that matter any degree of ambiguity over their status as an abuse victim in the first place.

part of what i find so gratifying about ed as a character is that i don’t feel like the show’s writing is pressuring me to consider that ambiguity at all. which was a really nice thing for me to discover!

and tbh—did using ed to deconstruct The Model Victim even factor into the writers’ agenda?? ive got no clue. im guessing no? ??maybe?? probably not?? but if you create a main character whose central premise is that he feels trapped in a performance of exaggerated masculinity that he’s desperate to escape, and then you set him up with a character premised on embodying a tangible obstacle against that escape, then i guess that’s the natural shape your story’s gonna be inclined to take

[lakesparkles]

hai me again! I hope you don't mind me adding on, I'd understand if you choose not to respond, just wanted to give my thoughts-

I first want to say that I relate to the emotional overwhelm of such situations. I'm very sensitive, especially when it feels as if I've been hurtful :( I just recently I got an ask that condescendingly said I was being insensitive about some fandom things (they misunderstood my point so I clarified and it was okay) but I felt that same feeling of rejection. it's like guilt and embarrassment and makes you feel like everyone is mad at you, lol... it always takes me a few days of recovery to feel comfortable posting again

secondly, I want to say that I agree with all your points. I don't know anything about mouthwashing, but it sounds like other people are making their shallow interpretation of it your problem. opening a discussion, as you did, is not an invitation to be harassed or accused of terrible things. you didn't deserve that!

saying that evil/abusive characters can have good qualities, do good things, or be nice, is not at all excusing (or God, forbid, endorsing) their evil/abusive actions. it's actually a grounded and realistic opinion to have. the idea that all abusers are just evil monsters isn't true. in my experience, one of the most dangerous things about abusers is that they can be nice, normal, even good people. anyone is capable of abuse, even good people. even normal people. if you talk to any abuse victim about their abusers, they will say things like, "yes, they were terrible, but they were good sometimes, too, and that's what made it so hard to hate/leave them"

I have watched bojack horseman. bojack is an excellent example of a realistic abuser (if you don't mind me calling him that). because he is written to have good moments, and to have deep and complex feelings, and to be sympathetic, sometimes, too! the things he does to others I would still call abusive, but because he is so complex and multifaceted, people sympathize with him more. he's a very interesting character and, imo, the comparison between him and jimmy is justifiable (from what I know)

(sorry a lot of this is nonsense. tldr, I think you're right, and other people just have poor literacy skills)

salukes!

-🦊

Hello!!! As usual, you don't need to worry at all! I love reading your thoughts, you can always express your thoughts so well!

First things is that YES, this is exactly how it feels! :( I'm also very sensitive with negative opinions towards me. I'm aware this is something about myself that I need to change... But oh man, I wish I knew how to actually do it. I just can't, and not even therapy helped me a bit. I feel so guilty I convince myself everybody - including my friends and mutuals - will start hating me too... Part of me knows it's not true. Part of me knows that people should and will have criticism about my actions. But nothing of it makes this type of situation easier.

Thank you for thinking so, what I was hoping was that I would be able to listen to other people's opinion about both characters, which is a very interesting topic to me. I like to see how bad people are represented on games/shows/movies, even more when Bojack and Jimmy have such different character arcs and are both the protagonists.

And I do think that admitting that abusers can be good people sometimes is a truth most people don't want to admit. But, at the same time, it's something very important to talk about because the same happened to me! (Vent coming, sorry) When I decided to stop talking to my ex, I felt so guilty. Because she treated me in a terrible way but, at the same time, she had so many good moments. She was cool, funny and made me feel very comfortable. There are some conversations between us that I still remember clearly because she inspired me and changed my way to see everything.

But she was still terrible and she still hurt me in many ways, no matter what.

I also wish things were different, but they aren't.

And Bojack is such a good character to show this. I do believe he was abusive many times and being able to relate to him is what makes the show so painful to watch. The problem is that he's so much more complex than Jimmy that people forget how he traumatized many other characters. I think more people should read his crimes on the Villains Wiki to remember Bojack is not a good guy. But well

[anti-katsuki-lounge]

One of the things I hate the most about the bk stan and their defense of bk is when they say that we can't call a 5-year-old "abuser", of course they call Midoriya a "stalker" at the same age but their double standard always existed. However, okay I take it into account and I agree that a 5-year-old child may not realize that his behavior is abusive, especially if no one sets a limit for you, but a teenager doesn't know what the limit is? I understand that his teachers and classmates never limited him but even without someone to stop him, being such an intelligent and self-aware person that he supposedly is didn't realize that his bullying had gone beyond limits, beatings, hints at suicide, breaking personal belongings, etc. God one of his minioms even told him that he had gone too far.

You know, this reminds me of an artist who made a work on staying still while let people do whatever they wanted, there were objects like roses, markers, etc. for people to "use" on her, at first people put flowers on her, etc. but then it got worse, they tore her shirt, etc just because she didn't move and they could exercise power over others, it was almost showing that people would always abuse their power if they saw no reprimand for their actions and that only behave for social punishment, well bk it is a perfect example of abuse of power. I think it's kind of sad that Horikoshi's manga deals with how victims can never leave their abusers behind and the manipulation of them to make them look crazy (Endevor didn't actually hit Rei, bk was abused as a child, etc.)

All of this. A teenager knows the difference between right and wrong by now. Not only that, but in the world of MHA, teenagers are old enough to start the process of becoming a hero, which is especially a cop with far more authority. Katsuki’s age doesn’t excuse shit. He’s a vile abuser.

You make a great point. For a series that’s about holding people accountable, it really tries making you root for and sympathize with the abusers.

[horizon-verizon]

I'll spend the next month and a half fearing that they will take away the overwhelming number of houses that supported her from Rhaenyra and give them to Aegon the same way they made the entire smellfolk of Kl will support him in that play and during the coronation 🫤

I feel deeply exhausted every time I think about it because instead of seeming like they want to emphasize that Rhaenyra has an uphill struggle as if viewers are stupid They seem to genuinely mean that Rhaenyra had 0 hope of ever ruling and she and anyone who thinks otherwise is delusional.

We get multiple instances of Rhaenyra being helpless and needing a man to save her, of Rhaenyra being overlooked, of Rhaenyra being disowned, and of Rhaenyra being humiliated.Where are the scenes of Rhaenyra being supported? Of Rhaenyra taking control? She is supported only when she is passive (Rhaenys) and when she takes control and acts according to her privilege she is branded a girl-boss and spoiled entitled brat.

Rhaenyra was loved and had institutional and popular support but they have been unable to show it. But of course we had time for Aegon, magnanimous king of the people 🙃☠️

I know it's misogyny and I know I shouldn't expect anything from this show, but I still fear that they will make it worse

I think that it doesn't help that we see her not having her female friendships or female supporters/Rhaenys coming in hot only until the last second, her relationship w/Harwin unexplored, and that we don't get to see her actually rule the island and people around Dragonstone, too. With Aegon, no one in that scene of the 1st episode really liked him or even understood him...bc he's been in the castle all his life doing fuck shit else but philandering and drinking. They don't know him as a ruler, we were seeing a first impression meeting--Aegon trying to familiarize and establish some sort of relationship with the general common folk.

It's also partly bc HotD writers/many people in society believe that in order for any victim to be truly supported they have to be sympathized with and they have to be sympathized with by them being in really dire straight. The "extreme" must become the "normal" before one recognizes that the victim is the victim or has some conditions set against them, long term or short term phenonmena that build into the "last" obstacles against them as the greens/Hightowers built under Viserys' political careless neglect.

People need to realize that even if Rhaenyra is shown to be happy most of her adult life time--happier and more in control or practicing her authority at Dragonstone--she would still be a victim of smaller sexist or abusive behaviors from her stepmother, some from Daemon, selfish neglect from her father, usurpation on account of her gender (discrimination), the mobilized patriarchal violence afterwards, then femicide. These all do happen....AND IN SPITE OF (not "because of" or "totally free of") all that. Then there is the fact that she was called "Realm's Delight" since young childhood and only under the context of fear, hunger, displacement, and exacerbated poverty during a war the greens started (yes, I do also place a tiny bit of blame on her for listening to Celtigar without exploring other options but not much AND maybe its bc I'm just stupid or GRRM made it way too easy for her to fail but I genuinely don't know what we'd/I'd do in that situation?) that the smallfolk truly started to turn against her.

These are the elements that define the tragedy of the death of not only her but the chance of female-rule precedent/female rule/matrilocality-esque [a married couple resides with or near the wife's parents]/matrifocality [mothers head families and fathers play a less important role in the home and in bringing up children]/rise of the value of matrilineal legitimacy.

[sprinkleonthatcriticism]

I really do not like the fact that Slime is out here claiming that Jack has guilt people into giving him money when he rightfully needed it to move out of synni's apartment after she had SA'd him and groomed a minor...

I calmly commented on this guy's youtube community post and they'd flipped out at me and accused me of being a "abuser sympathizer", so I respond again still being calm and saying that just because JACK is being called out for a lot of gross stuff does NOT mean he is suddenly not a victim of SA and shit.

Because shocker, he is STILL a survivor of Sexual assault and he STILL was assaulted by Synni in the past, just because he's being called out for cocsaing a minor in the past and saying that the minor allegedly had a grooming fetish does NOT mean he is suddenly a not victim.

Please get your act together, holy shit-

Also, they most likely saw this too and assume wrongly that I support Jack when I clearly state that no I don't

EDIT 21/11/24: Forgot to mention that Slime commented under this post, I disagree with somethings they said just as claiming that Jack is guilting people into giving him money which is pretty victim-blaming in my opinion. I do agree that the video felt like it's more about Jack than the victim of grooming but then again, He didn't really PLANNED the video out as he mentioned that he needed to create the video quickly before certain commentary youtubers try and twist situation to be all about Jack like as if Jack knew the victim was being groomed by Synni. But I do agree with Slime saying that Jack shouldn't really be posting a picture of pills without adding a filter but he probably wasn't thinking right considering that he was having a breakdown and he did later delete the post but people put it back up online anyways without censoring it

[the-path-to-redemption]

You know what keep me up all night?

The fandom sympathizing Cinder over Adam.

Before I get into this Yes. Cinder is white. Her VA is also white. I have seen people say she is Asian because she wore a Cheongsam in volume 4-6 buts that's the bare minimum. As non Chinese people can wear Cheongsam as long as they are wearing appropriately and are mostly used for formal or everyday wear.

There is no cultural ties on the name Cinder. Only the fact she is based of Cinderella.

We good? Okay let's get into it.

They cared more about a white girl over Adam. The same Adam who is poc coded former slave that was branded by white girl privilege family.

Don't get me wrong Cinder story is upsetting as it hold alot of abuse and child labor. I'm upset over the fact that Adam didn't get that same treatment until after his death and we gotten glimpse of what his life was during WF but not before.

Even then when his brand was revealed I remember how people were more focus over Bumblebee than the fact Adam has every right to be upset with society and the treatment of Fanus (even though that volume butcher his character).

Long Post Ahead

This isn't hate or anything, anon, but I do understand where you're coming from with Cinder. While there's no harm in making her Asian (as there are multiple iterations of the Cinderella story across many cultures, mine also have one), it's important that we all remember that Cinder is an in-universe majority. She is a human, so you are valid in your sentiments toward how she is received by the FNDM while practically sharing a similar childhood as Adam, who is an in-universe minority, no matter how much the FNDM tries to deny it and call him white.

It's still extremely problematic and hypocritical to sympathize with only one character between two very similar backstories when said character is a majority, while not extending the same understanding to the actual minority character. I say understanding because no one has to pity Adam, that's valid for them, but to say that he is less sympathetic than Cinder, who also abused a (presumably) younger woman under her care (Emerald), committed mass murder multiple times, blackmailing someone else by murdering his men in front of him, and did so much more, is fucking stupid.

This is extremely common unfortunately; I've even seen people denying that Adam wasn't a slave, somehow deluding themselves into headcanoning that he's a human faking to be a Faunus to use the WF's goals to satiate his own bloodlust (not even being subtle in their racism there), and that he's not somehow the only Faunus we've seen with an actual proof of the systematic oppression that they faced on-screen, which is a brand over his eye. There are also instances of them not taking abuse on male victims as seriously as female victims (most notably Oscar, Mercury, and Ozpin), but are willing to brush off any abuse that female victims inflict on others (Cinder, Neo, Salem, and Blake). It's bigotry, full stop.

But this doesn't end with the FNDM; yeah, Adam's death was to serve a ship between two characters who either do not give a fuck about what people like him have to go through or made the same people believe that their continuous oppression was their fault for not asking for their rights nice enough.

Fuck the implications that Blake knew that Adam (not excusing any abuse he put her through here) was branded and disabled for longer than they've known each other yet did nothing to actually change the brutality people like him have to go through. Fuck the fact that now Yang knew, and neither of them brought it up to Weiss so that she can keep her word to change the SDC (the fucking company that branded Adam) in Atlas and opted to go party with a team that they disliked. Nothing makes sense here, and we're in hell.

[adorawasright]

i feel like at this point, catra stans are deliberately misunderstanding our point. they keep saying that we just hate seeing abuse victims getting a happy ending and that we can't fathom the idea of a bad person changing for the better, when most antis i've seen has said multiple times that they just wanted a better redemption arc for catra.

liking or sympathizing with someone doesn't mean that you have to excuse all of their actions and let them get away with anything. you can like catra and still hold her accountable for her actions but it seems like catra simps refuse to understand this, and instead act like we're villains who just want catra to suffer and die.

Yeah, I for one relate to Catra and I was very disappointed with her redemption. It was cheap and was resumed to "forgiveness". First, no one should be forced to forgive someone that hurt them; it's their choice alone. Second, if they choose to forgive, they don't have to be in that person's life. It's a lot more complex than just saying "I'm sowwy :(" "I forgive you :) now we're buddies!". Forgiveness can be really hard.

Catra's apologies are INCREDIBLY vague, like, come on. She only says "I'm sorry for everything" to Adora - and Catra still treats Adora like shit. I don't remember exactly her apology to Entrapta but I know it was brief and didn't detail anything (Entrapta mentioned the events of s3 but she didn't seem hurt about being sent to Beast Island or like. Catra manipulating Entrapta into believing she was abandoned). Scorpia, then? Catra didn't even say the word "sorry". Scorpia just instantly forgave her despite the fact she wasn't even there for Catra's "progress". She was chipped the whole time. Same for Micah and Mermista.

The show refused any accountability, which should be essential to a redemption arc. Not to beat a dead horse, but there's a reason why Zuko's arc is so remarkable. We joke about the "fieldtrips", but Zuko helps each person individually, first Aang, then Sokka, and finally Katara, the person he most personally betrayed. When Zuko first tries to join the Gaang, they reject him. They don't trust him. And they're right for it! So Zuko proves that he's better over and over again, until he gains their trust in a natural way. While Iroh isn't there to see all of it, he can tell by Zuko's mere return to his uncle and his remorse alone that his nephew found his path again. Also note that Zuko doesn't make excuses, he just straight up says, "I'm so sorry and ashamed for what I did", and implies he would do anything to gain Iroh's trust again. Similarly to how he approached Katara in The Southern Raiders.

SPOP, however, only tells us Catra is "working" to be better. When she really doesn't. Too bad most of the fandom eats all that up without giving a second thought. Then they accuse us of hating abuse victims or mentally ill people, when I'm pretty sure a lot of us are both of those things.

[mandy4ever69420]

kinda to your point on ur post ab mandy it annoys me when ppl say that deleted (i think) scene where mickey’s like ‘don’t ever hit women’ is like #MaleFeministGoals when it’s just a pretty patriarchal view that women are weak and inferior and can’t fight back. when ppl edit that scene of all the boys going ‘pedophile hunting’ in like a badass way i just sigh bc like guarantee most of those men have assaulted or harassed women before, we know terry has. and that was the point of that scene to me, that it’s not about saving victims or whatever but about being a white knight and feeling good for defending the ‘vulnerable’ and what is their property. that’s why the scene where they find out it’s a woman is important. they don’t think women are capable of power so they don’t care.

anyway the writers decided they hated women after s2 so im sure they meant that as male feminist goals but i prefer s2 mickey’s ‘you don’t know my sister until you’ve fought my sister’ vibes. bc yeah. he sees her as an equal.

yeahhh!!! i don't recall the scene specifically so yes it was probably a deleted scene. it's a funny balance on the 'dont hit women' thing bc i myself for example know i would react SIGNIFICANTLY worse just on a gut instinct way to seeing a male character like mickey hit a woman the same way he hits men (specifically - when motivated by speech rather than retaliatory strikes, lol). & like part of this is due to the associations on a societal level with how much violence is directed at women by men in order to enforce patriarchy. male violence against women as a cultural phenomenon rather than an individual one is just more widespread and harmful, which is represented by individual occurrences. hmm. but part of it is just. how misogyny works. & the gut instinct level that it just feels worse to see.

there's not NOT a point to "don't hit women" like, WRT mickey's job in s4 to enforce against violent clients (mr patel) he's recognizing the pattern of someone who thinks a sex worker is less human, and wants to play out his fantasies about doing misogynistic harm to women through someone he can "get away with" hurting. also, because it's his job that svetlana specifically told him to do. lol

this also has to do with like... you'll see in shameless there are plenty of male abusers (kenyatta, terry, jody, kash & ian's abusers, also tommy is still canonically a pedophile, btw), but women who act abusively or are sexually coercive are much more likely to be sympathetic characters: mandy, debbie, karen, sveltana (with kev and v, the mickey thing is different. though i want to point out in s4 she did try to isolate him from ian as a support system by violence).

part of this is shameless falling into the idea that a woman doing it is "less bad" even as they critique that idea in other parts of the show. (also, they don't always seem to notice when something is assault) but the contexts in which these things happen ARE in fact really sad and messed up for these girls as well, & IMO there's a point here about how usually even SA, which people have very strong feelings about, can be done for sadass reasons. & that these are things you CAN recover and improve after - esp when willing (debbie having learned and telling carl he was assaulted - intent to prevent or sympathize with this), or when the other people involved are okay emotionally or forgiving

i imagine most people would like me be extremely unnerved if this was a point made using male characters even half as much. even though, like, technically it'd still be true. but man! i would not fucking like it if debbie and carl's plots were swapped. i refer specifically to how debbie treated derek delgado, which she did know was manipulative, not to how she acted with matt, who was grooming her and she didn't understand her behavior. ALSO: there's the aspect here that telling this story with a male character would've read SIGNIFICANTLY more as making excuses - as much as women perpetrating abuse is not taken as seriously, women are also held to much higher moral standards & hated more virulently for misdeeds. it'd look like a propaganda piece about how misogynistic violence is not that bad, actually!

i was pretty surprised and pleased that shameless was so on the ball with the 'pedo hunter' thing & establishing that terry milkovich is absolutely a pedophile. it's not that everyone with violent fantasies about attacking rapists is secretly compensating for one themself, but that a lot of these people have blindspots in recognizing their own behavior & are more excited about doing violence in a morally Righteous and protecting-our-women self-affirmation type of way. Also sometimes they are overdoing it to cover shit up.

come to think of it, i wonder if the reason so many people seem to have faith in mickey's brothers being "decent" is to do with the "i hate rapists, too" (s2) line? -- we know mickey is in fact protective & motivated by care wrt mandy & ian because we know him & we see the contexts he acts in & how he acts, but we have no such indications about anybody else having specific standards, rather than knowing there's a category of "bad person" (and person means man, in this mindset) that it's satisfying and righteous to violently retaliate against. also, doesn't sandy refer to mickey's brothers getting drunk and crawling into her bed? she was kind of referring to theft. but. like. well anyway

i know i really enjoyed watching mickey harass kash (satisfying) & i think when it comes to getting back at ian for "messing with mandy" there is something to be said there for protecting a girl you love against misogyny/misogynistic violence where possible. but you can't brush aside that retaliatory violence against sexual assault, especially mob violence (especially from a family full of white supremacists, good lord) has a really ugly self-serving history & doesn't necessarily indicate respect. & that is what was being invoked. a viewer should be put off by this or have a mixed response (again, the "dont hurt my sister thing" can also just. be nice) & not just because the info these guys were working with was inaccurate. also TBH i think you miss out on how impressive it IS that mickey is as good at boundaries and gentleness as he is if you refuse to understand the context of how bad violent mobs tracking down alleged rapists are and can be.

it's always really bothersome when people react to mickey's pimping as like a Big Misogyny like, not just because that's really not accurate, & it's reliant on the idea that these women don't have autonomy of their own. it also misses out on where you CAN see mickey interact with misogyny as a character trait. if you're too distressed by mickey calling svetlana a whore because she called him a pussy you're going to miss out on his occasional belief that women can't fight back, or have power. he falls for the manipulation of that pedophile in s3 (and has very sad sex right after walking away. also there's implications there) & he thinks it's embarrassing to be scared of his wife (even though he knows she's tough and intense). occasional because he can definitely tell that people like mandy, debbie, svetlana, and sandy have hands.

but also, like, when he's acting like a dick there it's treating these women as on equal footing. i saw a while ago someone try to read "we are thirsty" / "good thing theres a sink in the bathroom then huh" as, like, a damning mark on mickey's moral record. but man, i think svetlana was trying to figure out if mickey was white knighting, and if she could use that to her (& her coworkers') advantage. and he was like No because that's a very simple entry level manipulation that he's not going to fall for. also because the kind of white knighting she was checking for involves attraction (see: "nice guy" shit) and he is gay.

worthy of mention: mickey alleging that frank raped a girl, and mandy alleging that ian attempted to rape her are the same strategy in use to recruit. they each had their own agendas going on here & they both knew what'd get backup of people who are just excited to do violence. i wonder what this means about mickey maybe already knowing that mandy had been lying. i can see him realizing that if she was ACTUALLY hurt by someone she probably wouldn't have said anything but assuming she had her reasons anyway that she wouldn't disclose. 🤔🤔

there's also a point being made here about the fact that violent retaliation against abusers doesn't even necessarily do anything besides feel satisfying on an emotional level. when mickey is harassing kash, before we find out he's gay, ian grows more, not less, protective of kash, and feels more strongly attached. -> related to fiona's incredibly negative reaction when steve ditches frank in canada, contrast to mickey Not allowing ian to hurt kenyatta (though he also didn't want ian to do something he'd regret and get arrested)