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b66clematis · 2 months ago

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so, P5S DLC on tactica? [laughs]

few days ago, i saw a tweet saying "hoping so bad for a strikers DLC in tactica [...]" along those lines (tweet is rephrased, don't want to directly point it). i too, want it so bad. mainly for more gramps.

until reality hit me again. i don't think we'll ever get one! and i want to write down on why. P5T spoilers inbound.

tactica's story structure

tactica's story is centered on toshiro. the game overall is about him. the main driving plot starts because of him, the kingdom is manifested thanks to him, and even eri's story is told in his PoV, rather than eri herself (purposedly wrote it as "eri", this can refer both to natsuhara and erina).

back before P5T was released, there were people who thought that the repaint your heart/P5R DLC will be another dream segment like the PQ or dancing games, due to the timeline taking around sae palace again, and the event was never brought up in the main game. so, i made my own hypothesis that a P5S DLC could still work after accounting all the possible moves atlus would pull. the DLC would likely to take place around kyoto to osaka arc, because this is the only timeframe in which it has enough amount of spoilers they consider to be fine. you have both zenkichi and sophia, but you can't have pandora yet. same with the P5R DLC: you can have akechi and kasumi, but not the real kasumi yet.

but then, surprise: the DLC does not take place on a dream segment. and bigger surprise: it's actually tied to the main plot! i haven't played/watched the DLC due to not being the biggest fan of royal trio (i would buy it if the story incoporates them and the main team, honestly - but yeah, impossible), but if i get it right: the DLC ends up serving as a backstory for toshiro. the story events became another catalyst for toshiro (besides shido's falldown) to awaken erina in his heart first time.

and so, we're screwed.

the strikers DLC has to serve a purpose for toshiro, or maybe eri. and it can't take place on a dream segment, as it actually happened. no one just brought it up, akin to the weird situation of 3rd semester, sumire, and maruki to P5S (never mentioned, but can still be assumed to happen). so you can't do the DLC between kyoto and osaka arc, because the events during that time are too packed. there's no free time in osaka, in which you can have joker, sophia, and zenkichi wander around only as the three of them.

and if you want to place it post strikers, then... first, zenkichi and sophia are too parted away. joker is in another town doing his school, sophia is with ichinose (she can move between phones, though), and zenkichi is in kyoto with his cop job.

even if you make the plot into "they somehow reunite", this means you have to use pandora, which i assume kind of have the same level of spoiler sacredness to sumire. and i assume atlus won't do this (despite having shown bits of her in ads and actually having an official render, the P5S official websites never put pandora as sophia's persona).

would they even do that marketing move?

now, you may think, "you can just make them as bonus playable characters and ignore plot relevancy". i too think so. but let's be real to ourselves: strikers is a spin off. they don't have the same amount of popularity to the royal trio characters (which is the perfect popularity formula: the main protagonist, the character fans love to ship with the protagonist, and the new rerelase girl slash waifu bait). even if P5S sells 2 millions by the time this was written, they're still spin off characters, no matter what. not everyone knows them.

or even, let's not go that far. do you ever see someone being so invested in making a strikers trio content? no. i don't even think the fandom sees them as a trio, frankly speaking. sophia and zenkichi often times are regarded to be well inserted to the story, but the story itself never treats those three as a trio. try to recall a single moment that only have the three of them. give up? of course, because there is none. sophia and zenkichi works well because of their inclusion to the entire team, not the chemistry solely between them two. the hypothetical DLC could be used to showcase this, but whether it will work well or not is in the questions. unlike royal trio, who already have their story established in P5R, mainly via 3rd semester (whether how well are they established to you is irrelevant).

i was still hoping this could happen, though. looking back to the P4 era (i wasn't into persona during this time, though), apparently the spin off characters from P4 arena ultimax, labrys and sho, appeared in several other medias, including other spin off games. they appear as DLC in the dancing games, and their personas are playable in PQ and P5. so i thought, a playable-only sophia and zenkichi DLC could still happen. or at least, a pithos/pandora and valjean DLC in the compendium.

but... i don't know. i feel that there's some marketing tactic shift after the P5R remaster ports. they seem to only focus on the current released games, with P5R being the main one. which, makes sense, as it is the mainline game. but then, they announced several DLCs for P3R. one of them is P5 personas in the compendium. and guess what: they only have the P5R personas and BGMs. no P5S content whatsoever. they have first and second tiers of the P5R party member personas and throw away your mask (which i thought is insane, because they never did a 2nd tier persona DLC before, and throw away your mask is in the 3rd semester's spoiler area.). no pandora, or even pithos and valjean. no daredevil, counter strike, axe to grind, what you wish for, or whatever P5S remixes you're thinking of.

that was my final nail on the coffin to me - that i think, they're ignoring the spin offs for now. they have a different marketing from the P4 era. i'm not sure if it's due to weird contract status (like the rumor/false information (whatever) that the P5S characters belong to koei tecmo, not atlus), P5S not available on the XBOX, or they just want to ditch it at the moment. but they definitely are not focusing on the spin off contents for now. like, i think they could just pack the P5S personas/songs to the same package with the P5R packs and call it "P5 DLC", rather than separating them. you can only use pithos either, it's fine. but it doesn't seem that they have the spin offs thought of either, in the first place.

and, i mean. even if it happens - do you think people would buy it? most people haven't experienced strikers to know them, dislike atlus' DLC practices, and probably would have felt that the P5R DLC they bought is too expensive, so they won't buy another DLC. and i think atlus doesn't do future DLC thing? the only time i know this happened was akechi's P5D DLC, and... of course, because it's akechi. they even have yet to make a P5R DLC for P5D, although that could just be due to the game not doing good.

so... yeah. i think a P5S DLC is impossible. even if there are rumors of it (the rumor says it was scrapped, anyway). or at least, my realistic, low-expectation filled self thinks so. i still would love to have this post proven wrong and see it happen, but it's better to expect nothing than expecting anything and see it crushed, as time passes by. we can still cook for ourselves, anyway. grab that tablet or PC, we're drawing and writing it down. if they won't, then we will.

#R29 P5

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grazhir · 1 year ago

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Persona 5

Just because.

I watched the opening cinematics for P5 and P5R.

P5 is, as it always has been, a masterpiece. The song is perfect (even though her voice isn't perfect for that song), all the subtext is perfect (constantly skating on [thin] ice but also joy and freedom and lovin' this shit), Haru being a damn afterthought and relevant only for plot purposes is right there out in the open, and it ends perfectly.

[Yes, I'm a simp for this opening. P5 is in my top five games of all time.]

Then I watched P5R's opening. The song is garbage and said literally nothing to me. I hated the sound of it, so why even bother trying to hear the words? It was too dark, it didn't celebrate (in sound) the point of the game.

(But maybe that's deliberate considering the final act? I dunno, never played P5R after my initial excitement [based on more time/activities] because Kasumi made me run in the other direction, especially given how much screen time and focus she got, and that was without knowing shit about her. Just, automatic assumptions about her character and not being willing to spend hours of my time on it or her.)

Anyway. Did a Crayola box throw up on this video? Why are these people rolling around in riches? Can you say highly misleading? Why are they leveling buildings? Is this supposed to stand for institutions rather than physical buildings? 90%+ of this opening stood for nothing that made any sense to me. Aside, perhaps, for the LEM used for the final (I've learned plenty through various places)? I don't even know.

So yeah, the P5R opening is garbage in my eyes. I'll continue to simp P5 as the only real Persona 5.

#p5 #p5r #persona 5 #persona 5 royal

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bestiari · 2 years ago

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— 11:25 PM —

Quite a different kind of Thanksgiving. Not so much the food; had the usual chicken. It's just a coin flip, whether it'll be made by my mom or KFC.

We landed on mom's side of the coin this year. Pretty good. Kinda wish I had more of it right now.

Besides that, I ended up on a fun ride to PCH. Followed by King's Buffet - the premiere Chinese buffet of Hollywood. And now, I'm watching the Sopranos. It's only 23:44. How did we get here?

Also, mind the photo. I finally saw the Himeno scene and I've fallen in love yet again. Truly would make my crush on Misato be humble. Coz I'm just down bad for this one. LOL.

— 11:50 PM —

What I listened to;

"You Can't Escape You Know", Aperture Science Psychoacoustic Laboratories

I've been feeling rather nostalgic for Portal 2 recently. There's something about this pair of games that truly comes together for me. The puzzles. The humor. The soundtrack. The way it just absolutely melds together. It's beautiful.

What I watched;

Chainsaw Man 06: It's the scene. It happened. I've been smitten yet again. Anyways, you read about that already.

The Sopranos - 0101, The Pilot: I didn't expect it to immediately get started. Also, it's only 6 seasons? I feel like it was relevant for far longer. Maybe it's coz time was a weird concept to grasp as a kid. Either way, the characters are absolutely fucked up in this show already. And I'm all for it.

What I played;

Sort of a mishmash of stuff. I really wanted to play Tetris Effect Connect / DJMax Respect V... but I forgot to do my patch downloads on my Steam Deck. And it absolutely does not like being in offline mode. Wild. Ended up playing marathon mode in Money Idol Puzzle Exchange. It's pretty fun every time I get into the meat of it. Tried Beatmania 12XD Happy Sky Mix... or whatever. But It's like 7Key on a PS2 pad. I could not comprehend it. Moved to Melee, but the frameskip was weird.

Finished the night with some Valorant games with Michael. I feel like we could have stopped after the first game. LOL. How did end up with TWO KITTENS??

What I felt;

3 days off didn't feel like much of a break. It's kinda fucked up. Managed to stay in the zone most of the evening, so at least that felt good. I'm glad I didn't overeat. I'm looking forward to BK tomorrow. With or without Andi.

— 12:09 AM —

Why;;

It feels like every hour I dedicate to one thing only piles on what feels like a detriment and loss of time for everything else I want to do. I'm already starting to feel a plateau in my general performance - regardless of what game it is. With that, I'm about 16 hours into P5R - about 2 resets so far, so my save is like 14hrs. I feel like it's also difficult to remember the story going on. Maybe that's a tale for another day. I don't feel like going on about how memory feels like it's slipping. Muddled.

I'm looking forward to using this for notes throughout the day. Maybe I can finally hone in on a more regular schedule. I'm losing more to sleep than ever before. It pains me so. Sleep is truly all I want in life, most of the time. The 2 years of Covidtime spoiled me with so much time to be in bed. So much time to just be alone in my thoughts. Even when I had several people to talk to.

— 01:20 AM —

I like that the dairy app I paid way too much for sort of recognizes sharing to Tumblr. Sorta.

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starfirexuchiha · 4 years ago

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The Flower Meanings behind each P5R Flower Keychain Merch

After pre-ordering the P5R flower keychain merch, I decided delve into the flower meanings that each PT character is associated with in the new flower keychain merch.

I’m going to research into the Hanakotoba (花言葉) meaning of these flowers, the English meanings, and the relevant flower essences to hopefully get the right information. Then I’ll try to connect how they relate to the characters. Understand that what I’ll say may not be 100% right, because this is my own interpretation.

The flower meanings I gotten are based on the Japanese websites and English websites that I looked into. THIS IS GOING TO BE A VERY LONG POST so please excuse any potential grammar mistakes I may have made.

If I ever have time, I might make separate posts for each Phantom Thief regarding the history, folklore and meta of their flowers.

Ren Amamiya - Red China Asters & White Daisies

China Asters are called 蝦夷菊 (Ezogiku) or in Katakana, エゾギク in Japanese.

In Hanakotoba (花言葉) China Asters in general mean:

追憶 (Recollection)

私はあなたを想うでしょう (I will think of you)

変化 (Change / Shapeshift)

信じる恋 (Believing in Love)

貞節 (Fidelity)

And Red China Asters in particular mean:

変化を好む (I prefer change)

The English meaning of these Asters are:

Patience

Elegance

Daintiness (Gentle and Kind personality)

Afterthought (Remembering someone who is no longer with you / Thinking if things should have happened differently)

Love of variety

And the Red color in an Aster is the color of passion that expresses strong emotions towards these meanings.

So basically China Asters mean Change and Recollection (Remembering something/someone), and “私はあなたを想うでしょう (I will think of you)”.

Note: There are 2 different classifications of Aster flowers. One is the Shion (シオン) Aster. The other is the China (エゾギク) Aster. There is no such thing as a red Shion Aster. China Asters on the other hand, comes with a variety of colors including red. Therefore, the red asters are China Asters.

Shion Asters tend to have the meaning: “君を忘れない (I won’t forget you)”. China Asters tend to have a similar meaning which is: "私はあなたを想うでしょう (I will think of you)”. This indicates remembering someone who is no longer with you, or when they are far away and separated from you. It seems that Asters in general involve remembering someone and not wanting to forget them.

How this connects to Ren:

Since Red Asters in particular mean “change”, I think this refers to how Ren is a “shapeshifter” (from the Beneath the Mask song), since he is a WildCard user who uses different personas and masks. I think the “変化を好む (I prefer change) ” meaning refers to how Ren wanted to reform society as a Phantom Thief.

China Asters in general also mean “recollection”, I think this refers to what happened between Ren and Akechi. Ren deeply regretted how he wasn’t able to save Akechi in the engine room and wanted things to happen differently between them (Like peacefully playing chess with Akechi in his room in the “Bad Ending”). For Akechi to be present and by his side...that was his wish in the dream world. This can also refer to how Akechi said “If only we had met a few years earlier...”. Recollection is also connected to the "私はあなたを想うでしょう (I will think of you)” meaning. Ren still remembers his promise with Akechi, even after the dream world ended. Akechi was separated from him twice but Ren still carries Akechi’s glove with him, thinking of him.

The meaning of these flowers are probably connected to the meaning of Akechi’s Forget-Me-Nots that I will mention later in this post.

Daisies are called 雛菊 (Hinagiku) or just デイジー (Daisy) in Japanese.

In Hanakotoba (花言葉) Daisies in general mean:

純潔 (Innocence / Purity)

美人 (Beautiful person)

平和 (Peace / Harmony)

希望 (Hope)

And White Daisies in particular mean:

無邪気 (Innocent)

The English meanings of these Daisies are:

Innocence

New Beginnings

Purity

Harmony

If the Daisy color is White then that specifically means “Innocence” and “Purity”.

How this connects to Ren:

Ren has his own sense of justice and righteousness, and he believes that what he’s doing is for the greater good. He is the Trickster who brings hope and drives away ruin. Shido falsely accused Ren of assault even though Ren’s innocent. He gotten a criminal record even though he is innocent. Ren started off as a misunderstood hero... and yeah I guess Ren is pretty good-looking too “美人 (Beautiful person)” lol.

Ryuji Sakamoto - Sunflowers & Red Ace Hydrangeas

Sunflowers are called 向日葵 (Himawari) or in katakana ヒマワリ in Japanese.

In Hanakotoba (花言葉) Sunflowers mean:

私はあなただけを見つめる (I only have my eyes on you)

あなたを幸福にする (I will make you happy)

崇拝 (Admiration / Adoration)

光輝 (Brightness)

あなたは素晴らしい (You are amazing)

偽りの富 (False Riches)

The English meanings of these Sunflowers are:

Adoration

Faithfulness

Loyalty

Joy & Happiness

So basically Sunflowers mean admiring someone or adoring someone and it also means happiness.

How this connects to Ryuji:

Ryuji is Ren’s best friend, and he also greatly admires Ren for being the leader of the Phantom Thieves. Ryuji is also the type of guy who is loud, cheerful, and optimistic. This can connect to brightness and happiness.

Hydrangeas are called 紫陽花 (Ajisai) or in katakana アジサイ in Japanese.

In Hanakotoba (花言葉) Hydrangeas mean:

高慢 (Boastfulness / Arrogance)

冷酷 (Ruthlessness / Cold-Hearted)

謝罪 (Apology)

The English meanings of Hydrangeas are:

Gratitude

Honest Emotions

Vanity

Boastfulness

Desire for forgiveness

Regret

In Japan, Hydrangeas are usually used to express apology for bad behavior. That’s why negative words like 冷酷 (Ruthlessness / Cold-Hearted) and 高慢 (Boastfulness / Arrogance) are associated with it. It’s to apologize for behaving like that.

How this connects to Ryuji:

Ryuji is a delinquent and a troublemaker. However, he’s also the type to apologize for the things he messed up on. One example is Ryuji feeling sorry for his mother because attacking Kamoshida ruined his chances of making things easier for her (like getting an athletic scholarship). Another example is the 3rd Semester where he deeply apologizes to Ren for abandoning him to enjoy the dream world. For 高慢 (Boastfulness / Arrogance), Ryuji wanted to have more fame and recognition as the Phantom Thieves were becoming more popular, but that was until the Okumura incident.

Ann Takamaki - Red Roses & Strawberry Blossoms

“A Beautiful Rose has thorns!” - Ann

Roses are called 薔薇 (Bara) or they can be just called ローズ (Rose) in Japanese.

In Hanakotoba (花言葉) Roses in general mean:

愛 (Love)

美 (Beauty)

And Red Roses in particular mean:

あなたを愛してます (I love you)

愛情 (Love / Affection)

美 (Beauty)

情熱 (Passion)

熱烈な恋 (Passionate Love)

The English meanings of Red Roses are pretty much the same: Passionate Love, Romance, and Beauty. Roses are the most well-known flowers across the world.

How this connects to Ann:

Ann is associated with the Lovers Arcana. Ann’s phantom thief attire is also associated around the themes of beauty, lust, and love. This is because her Persona is Carmen, who is a Femme Fatale (An attractive and seductive woman, especially one who is likely to cause distress or disaster to a man who becomes involved with her). Like what Ann said in battle: “A Beautiful Rose has thorns!“

Strawberries are called 苺 (Ichigo) in Japan.

In Hanakotoba (花言葉) Strawberry Blossoms mean:

尊重と愛情 (Love and Respect)

幸福な家庭 (Happy Family)

あなたは私を喜ばせる (You please me)

先見の明 (Foresight)

完全なる善 (Perfect Goodness)

The English meanings of Strawberry Blossoms are:

Perfection

Righteousness

Spring / Rebirth

So basically Strawberry Blossoms mean perfection, love, and righteousness.

The essence of a Strawberry Blossom can help those who are going through a mental loop of fear and anxiety. For people who are worrying themselves to exhaustion and tears.

How this connects to Ann:

Ann is very kind, compassionate, and also cheerful when she’s with the Phantom Thieves. When it comes to “righteousness“, Ann has moral values and tends to reflect on whether her’s or the PT’s actions are right or wrong. She also has a strong desire to help those in need. I think “perfection” connects to how Ann is confidant about her physical appearance, but she also wants to be mentally strong and confidant like the female villains she watched.

The essence of a Strawberry Blossom (a mental loop of fear and anxiety) could connect to what Ann was going through during the Kamoshida arc. She worries a lot about Shiho, and was unfortunately put into a situation where she had to deal with Kamoshida’s threats and sexual harassment. This is because she feared that Shiho would lose her position in the volleyball team. This situation was so stressful that she suddenly had to talk to Ren about it at the station.

Yusuke Kitagawa - Nemophilas & Lily of the Valleys

Nemophilas (aka Baby Blue Eyes) are called 瑠璃唐草 (Rurikarakusa) or just ネモフィラ (Nemophila) in Japanese.

In Hanakotoba (花言葉) Nemophilas mean:

どこでも成功 (Success everywhere)

あなたを許す (I forgive you)

可憐 (Sweet)

The English meanings of Nemophilas are pretty much the same: Victory and Success.

However...

Nemophilas have essences for anyone who during their childhood, had lack of support from their father figure or had issues with their father figure.

How this connects to Yusuke:

Sure the “success” meaning could probably connect to Yusuke trying to succeed his art career, but I think the Nemophila essence meaning connects to him more. Yusuke did have a father figure in his childhood who is Madarame. Madarame adopted him shortly after his mother’s death. He became corrupted by his distorted desires and treated Yusuke as a tool to help bolster his fame and riches. Yusuke had issues with Madarame‘s abuse and eventually fought against him in the Metaverse.

However Yusuke still have this conflicting case of Stockholm Syndrome towards Madarame and it shows during the 3rd semester. In the dream world, part of Yusuke’s wish was to have Madarame be a supporting and sincere father figure towards him. This can connect to the Nemophila meaning of “feeling supported and loved, especially by male figures”.

One of the birth flower dates for Nemophilas is January 28th, which is Yusuke’s birthday. So these flowers are REALLY for Yusuke!

Lily of the Valleys are called 鈴蘭 (Suzuran) or in katakana スズラン in Japanese.

In Hanakotoba (花言葉) Lily of the Valleys mean:

再び幸せが訪れる (Return of Happiness)

純粋 (Purity)

謙遜 (Modesty)

優しさ (Kindness)

The English meanings of Lily of the Valleys are:

Motherhood

Womanhood

Purity

Sweetness

Return of Happiness

You made my life complete

So basically the Lily of the Valley flowers mean “Return of Happiness” but it could also mean “Motherhood”, because this flower is considered to be the perfect flower for the month of May, and Mother’s Day takes place in May. On May 1st, it is a custom to give a loved one Lily of the Valleys.

Lily of the Valley also has essences for those who are yearning or desiring relationships that are unattainable.

How this connects to Yusuke:

The “再び幸せが訪れる (Return of Happiness)“ meaning could refer to Yusuke becoming part of the Phantom Thieves and obtaining new friends. The PTs saved him from Madarame. Note that Yusuke first met the Phantom Thieves on the month of May, and Lily of the Valleys are heavily associated with that month.

I think this also relates to the Sayuri painting. The true form of the Sayuri painting expresses motherhood. The woman in the painting is holding a baby. Yusuke’s mother created this painting of herself happily holding her newborn son in her arms. “Yearning for relationships that are unattainable” could probably refer to how Yusuke deep down yearn for parental love. His biological parents aren’t present in his life and Madarame is a corrupted father figure. I mentioned before that part of Yusuke’s wish in the dream world was to have Madarame be a supporting and sincere father figure towards him.

Makoto Niijima - Canterbury Bells & Pink Tree Peonies

Canterbury Bells (aka Bellflowers), are called カンパニュラ (Campanula) in Japanese.

In Hanakotoba (花言葉) Canterbury Bells mean:

感謝 (Gratitude)

誠実 (Sincerity)

節操 (Loyalty)

思いを告げる (Telling your Thoughts)

共感 (Sympathy)

The English meanings of Canterbury Bells are:

Gratitude

Humility

Everlasting Love

So basically Canterbury bells mean “Gratitude” and “Telling your Thoughts”.

The essence of Canterbury Bells are for those who are stressed and cannot think for themselves. Canterbury Bells can help clear their minds so that they can stand up for themselves and make their own decisions.

How this connects to Makoto:

Before she joined the Phantom Thieves, Makoto was considered to be an obedient “good girl type of pushover” who followed the rules and couldn’t make her own decisions. During the Kaneshiro arc, so many things were happening to her at once such as the Principal giving her a difficult task, Sae getting angry at her during dinner, and Goro calling her a pushover. All of this really stressed her because her obedience is suffocating her. This connects to the “思いを告げる (Telling your Thoughts)“ meaning because it wasn’t until she entered Kaneshiro’s palace that she was finally able to speak her mind and stand up for herself.

One of the birth flower dates for Canterbury Bells is April 23rd, which is Makoto’s birthday. So these flowers are REALLY for Makoto!

Tree Peonies are called 牡丹 (Botan) or in katakana ボタン in Japanese.

In Hanakotoba (花言葉) Tree Peonies mean:

王者の風格 (Personality of a King)

富貴 (Wealth and Honor)

はにかみ (Bashfulness)

恥じらい (Shyness)

思いやり (Compassion)

The English meanings of Tree Peonies are:

Good Fortune

Bravery

Honor

Nobility

In Japan, Tree Peonies are well-respected and known to be called the “King of Flowers” (花の王様) or the “King of a Hundred Flowers” (百花の王). The reason why they’re called that is because back in history, Tree Peonies were used to decorate throne rooms and royal palaces. That’s why Tree Peonies tend to have meanings relating to royalty and honor.

The essence of Peonies are for those who are overworking themselves and trying to work hard for everything.

How this connects to Makoto:

Makoto’s code name is “Queen”, because of her bossy and strict personality. This also connects to the “王者の風格 (Personality of a King)“ meaning. Makoto’s bossy personality can be a King-like trait. Also a Queen is just a royal female version of a King. Makoto also worked hard to keep her grades in check and studied a lot in order to go to a good college. This could connect to the Peony essence for trying to work hard for everything. Makoto also drove a lot in P5 Strikers and exhausted herself from it. This could mean that Makoto is also the type to overwork herself.

The “はにかみ (Bashfulness)” meaning could probably connect to how Makoto has vulnerable or cute sides to her. She is scared of paranormal activity and have cute buchimaru merch in her room.

Futaba Sakura - Dandelions & Red Carnations

Dandelions are called 蒲公英 (Tanpopo) or in katakana タンポポ in Japanese.

In Hanakotoba (花言葉) Dandelions mean:

愛の神託 (Oracle of Love)

神託 (Oracle)

真心の愛 (Sincere Love)

幸福 (Happiness)

別離 (Separation)

The English meanings of Dandelions are:

Happiness

Joy

Youthful Thoughts

Dandelions are known to be a fortune-telling flower which is why words like “神託 (Oracle)” are associated with it. It seems like Dandelions also mean “Happiness” but also “Separation”.

How this connects to Futaba:

Obviously Futaba’s code name is “Oracle”, so all of the “神託 (Oracle)” and “愛の神託 (Oracle of Love)“ meanings of this flower connects to her. The “別離 (Separation)“ meaning could refer to how Futaba is separated from her mother because her mother died. The “幸福 (Happiness)“ meaning probably refers to how Futaba became happy again and gained new friends after the Phantom Thieves saved her.

One of the birth flower dates for Dandelions is February 19th, which is Futaba’s birthday. So these flowers are REALLY for Futaba!

Carnations are called カーネーション (Carnation) in Japanese.

In Hanakotoba (花言葉) Carnations in general mean:

無垢で深い愛 (Innocent and Deep Love)

魅惑 (Fascination)

愛情 (Affection)

And Red Carnations in particular mean:

母への愛 (A Mother’s Love)

The English meanings of Carnations are:

Admiration

Love and Affection

Fascination

Distinction

Carnations are known to symbolize Mother’s Day which is why “母への愛 (A Mother’s Love)“ is associated with it. The Red color of that flower in particular are used the most for Mother’s Day.

How this connects to Futaba:

Futaba loves her mother (Wakaba) a lot and she also misses her mother a lot. The whole Futaba Palace arc was about Futaba struggling to overcome her mother’s death. She later realized in her Palace that her mother doesn’t hate her and still loves her. This connects to the “母への愛 (A Mother’s Love)“ meaning. Futaba deep down still hasn’t overcome her mother’s death and it shows in the 3rd semester. Futaba’s wish in the dream world was to have Wakaba still alive. Futaba knew it wasn’t real early on, but she still rolled with it anyway because “If I got to see my mom again, then it was okay...”. She eventually apologized to Ren for this though.

Haru Okumura - Pink Roses & Hypericum Berries

As you already know, in Hanakotoba (花言葉) Roses in general mean:

愛 (Love)

美 (Beauty)

But Pink Roses in particular mean:

しとやか (Graceful / Ladylike)

上品 (Elegant)

可愛い人 (Cute person)

美しい少女 (Beautiful Girl)

誓い (Oath of Love)

感銘 (Deep Impression)

The English meanings of Pink Roses are:

Gratitude

Grace

Joy

Gentleness

Ann’s Red Roses represent passionate love and romance. Haru’s Pink Roses on the other hand, have a different meaning. Pink Roses are more associated with beauty and grace.

How this connects to Haru:

Haru is the “Beauty Thief”, and is associated with the themes of classy elegance, beauty and grace. This is because her Persona is Milady, who is a sophisticated and elegant woman. It’s also because Haru is rich. Haru is familiar with what it’s like to live in a high-class lifestyle.

Hypericum are called ヒペリカム (Hypericum) in Japanese

In Hanakotoba (花言葉) Hypericums mean:

きらめき (Sparkle)

悲しみは続かない (Sadness that doesn’t last)

The English meanings of Hypericums are:

Cheerfulness

Inspiration

Antidepressant

Hypericums are usually given to those who are grieving or lost a loved one. They are also known to relieve depression, because the medicine that uses this plant are antidepressants. Hypericums are also used to drive away devils, witches, sorcery, and misfortune. This is the reason why Hypericums have “悲しみは続かない (Sadness that doesn’t last)" as its meaning.

How this connects to Haru:

I think this is connected to how Haru lost her father and she was really sad about it. Hypericums are for those “who are grieving or lost a loved one“. The meaning of “driving away devils, witches, sorcery, and misfortune“ could refer to how Haru had to fight against her father in the Metaverse in order to stop his corruption and save anyone (and herself) who were affected by his distorted desires. Even after the Okumura arc, she still grieved about her father to the point that her wish in the dream world was to have her father alive again.

The “悲しみは続かない (Sadness that doesn’t last)" meaning could refer to Haru joining the Phantom Thieves and not being sad anymore. Her new friends relieved her depression.

Sumire Yoshizawa - Baby’s Breaths & Blue Star Milkweeds

Baby’s Breaths (aka Gypsophilas) are called かすみ草 (Kasumisou) in Japanese.

In Hanakotoba (花言葉) Baby’s Breaths mean:

清らかな心 (Pure Heart)

無邪気 (Innocence)

親切 (Kindness)

幸福 (Happiness)

永遠の愛 (Everlasting Love)

The English meanings of Baby’s Breaths are:

Everlasting Love

Newborn babies

Innocence

Holy Spirit

Unity

So basically Baby’s Breath mean “Innocence”, “Purity”, and “Everlasting Love”.

How this connects to Sumire:

The name of the flower. In Japanese, Baby’s Breaths are called “Kasumi” (かすみ) in hiragana. The name of Sumire’s twin sister is also in hiragana: かすみ芳澤 (Kasumi Yoshizawa). It appears that Kasumi is named after the Baby’s Breath flower. Sumire on the other hand, is named after Violets, and Violets are called すみれ草 (Sumiresou). What is the Hanakotoba meaning of Violets? “白昼夢 (Daydreaming)” and “あなたのことで頭がいっぱい (You Occupy my Thoughts)”.

Kasumi = Baby’s Breaths (Innocence, Pure Heart)

Sumire = Violets (Daydreaming, You Occupy my Thoughts)

Sumire was the first to be affected by Maruki’s power. Her cognition was changed, causing her to believe that she’s Kasumi. This is connected to the “白昼夢 (Daydreaming)” meaning. During her time being Kasumi, she was completely oblivious that she’s not Kasumi. This could connect to the “Innocence” meaning.

It’s also the reason why the Sumire keychain have Baby’s Breaths flowers instead of Violets. This is the Sumire that thinks she’s Kasumi.

The “永遠の愛 (Everlasting Love)“ meaning could probably refer to the bond between the two sisters.

The Blue Star Milkweeds (aka Tweedias) are called ブルースター (BlueStars) in Japanese.

In Hanakotoba (花言葉) BlueStars mean:

幸福な愛 (Happy Love)

虹あう心 (Rainbow Hearts)

信じあう心 (Hearts that believe in each other)

The English meaning of BlueStars are:

Faithful Affection

BlueStars are one of the common flowers that are used in weddings in a bride’s bouquet. I guess that’s why meanings like “幸福な愛 (Happy Love)“ and “信じあう心 (Hearts that believe in each other)” are associated with it.

The essence of BlueStars are associated with dream and reality. It helps balance the ability to daydream with the need to keep one foot fully grounded in reality.

How this connects to Sumire:

Sumire’s 3rd tier Persona Ella, represents Cinderella during her wedding day. The blue color of the BlueStars could also refer to the color of Sumire’s 1st Persona, Cendrillon.

But the essence of BlueStars seem to connect to her more. Regarding the Inharmonious Expression, Sumire wasn’t able to accept reality at first, and wanted to stay being Kasumi in the dream world. This could connect to her lack of ability to move forward and her inability to travel to another dimension (Reality). Then during her time in the 3rd semester with the Phantom Thieves and Akechi, Sumire eventually gained the courage to accept herself. She was finally able to keep one foot fully grounded in reality.

Goro Akechi - Lobelias & Pink Forget-Me-Nots

Lobelias are called ロベリア (Lobelia) in Japanese.

In Hanakotoba (花言葉) Lobelias mean:

悪意 (Malevolence / Evil Intentions)

謙遜 (Modesty)

いつも愛らしい (Always Charming)

嫌い (Hate)

The English meanings of Lobelias are:

Distinction

Malevolence

Arrogance

So basically Lobelias symbolizes “Malevolence”. The reason why Lobelias have these negative meanings is because even though these flowers look pretty, they are really toxic flowers that can kill you.

How this connects to Goro:

Goro’s true nature is full of malevolence and hate. He had caused psychotic breakdowns, had killed some people, and had attempted to betray the Phantom Thieves and kill Ren. His hatred comes from his desire for revenge against Shido, because Shido is the one who ruined his life as well as his mother’s. The 3rd semester showed this side of him even more. He is more ruthless, vulgar, aggressive, and wildly feral especially towards shadows. He takes great pleasure in killing them. Goro can also make himself go berserk by using “Call of Chaos” on himself.

Goro being a murderer and taking pleasure in killing things can connect to how the Lobelia flowers are really toxic and can kill you.

The “いつも愛らしい (Always Charming)” meaning could refer to how Goro is still pretty and charming despite showing is feral side. Like come on, look at this baby face:

Forget-Me-Nots are called 忘れな草 (Wasurenakusa) in Japanese.

In Hanakotoba (花言葉) Forget-Me-Nots in general mean:

真実の愛 (True Love)

私を忘れないで (Don’t forget me)

思い出 (Memories)

And Pink Forget-Me-Nots in particular mean:

真実の友情 (True Friendship)

The English meanings of Forget-Me-Nots are:

Don’t forget me

Remembrance

True Love

Eternal Love

Desperate Love

Memory of a dead person

The meanings of “True Love” and “Don’t Forget Me” came from legends of tragic romances in medieval times.

The essence of Forget-Me-Nots are for those who never fully resolved their isolation and abandonment issues after experiencing the death of an important family member or friend during childhood.

How this connects to Goro:

The “私を忘れないで (Don’t forget me)” and “Remembrance” meanings refers to what happened between Goro and Ren. Goro made a promise with Ren and gave Ren one of his gloves. But then Goro “died” in the Engine Room and Ren was devastated about it. Ren still kept the glove that Goro gave him and remembers him from it. This can also relate to the meaning of the China Asters that Ren is associated with: "私はあなたを想うでしょう (I will think of you)”, and also relates to “Memory of a dead person”.

The “真実の友情 (True Friendship)” meaning from the Pink Forget-Me-Nots in particular could refer to how in P5R, Goro now has a manual confidant. Ren is able to have an “open and honest relationship” with Goro because of this.

The essence of Forget-Me-Nots also relates to Goro. Goro does indeed have isolation and abandonment issues. He mentioned how he’s an unwanted bastard child, and in the engine room he mentioned how he wanted to be loved. He also deep down wanted to be acknowledged by Shido since Shido is his only biological link. Shido of course took advantage of that. All of this is because during Goro’s childhood, his mother committed suicide, leaving him feeling alone and unwanted. The death of an important family member.

For the ShuAke fans:

Since Forget-Me-Nots gotten their name from tragic romances, this can connect to how ShuAke is a tragic and angsty romance as well. Since they have an “open and honest relationship”, their “真実の友情 (True Friendship)” can turn into “真実の愛 (True Love)” as the story progresses. Also… their flowers communicated to each other like:

Goro: 私を忘れないで (Don’t forget me)

Ren: 私はあなたを想うでしょう。君を忘れない (I will think of you. I won’t forget you)

---------------------------------------------

Whew.... I gotta say, making this post has made me learn a lot about flowers and the flower language. Thanks to this new knowledge, I will consider using the meaning of flowers in my future video projects from now on. Making this post also made me delve into the meta of the other Phantom Thieves and I began to like them more because of it.

Like I said, my interpretations aren’t 100% correct, so make what you will with this knowledge.

You’re welcome 👋

#p5r #persona 5 royal #p5 royal #merch #flower language #ren amamiya #akira kurusu #ryuji sakamoto #ann takamaki #yusuke kitagawa #makoto niijima #futaba sakura #haru okumura #sumire yoshizawa #kasumi yoshizawa #goro akechi #shuake #akeshu #meta

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iceglade · 4 years ago

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i made a thread on twitter about this but i've been thinking about vanilla vs royal i cant handle how happy i am that royal has made ppl like akechi more, not just for "hes hot" reasons bc ppl love that but winning over reddit* folks who dislike many fanon takes for being too wooby,

not that i particularly care for Wooby bc ive been in fandom for ages and i like seeing ppl happy - i know theres a certain degree of allowance when it comes to twisting canon characterization for content, because you're the content creator, its in your hands and cmon-

but especially with royal i think akechi's serious edge "won over a lot of people" who can now respect him for how he approached refusing the dream world, i think thats something they can understand and appreciate - ESPECIALLY when a lot of ppl's beef with vanilla akechi was "daddy doesnt love me boo hoo" which is a GROSS misunderstanding/simplification of his EXTREMELY complex character, which was barely covered or etc bc of vanilla's horrid writing -- over all! its not JUST him - BUT, royal provided such a good opportunity to show off akechi's character, through giving him more screentime and VERY IMPORTANTLY: Plot Relevance like how, say mementos mission shows off joker's need to be helpful bc hes a deep-feeling person, or scramble showing off haru and makoto and the other thieves by drawing them against the new characters to compare and contrast and give them Time to BE, - royal gave akechi time to recover from the frankly AWFUL vanilla narrative decision to shoot and shove him off like chopped liver and never mention him again, so that many ppl's impression of akechi goro was of an incomprehensible, annoying character who blew up and then acted like he dont knowww know bodaay haghnaghnahgna

i joke but SERIOUSLY a bad first AND last impression, REALLY...

ahh. im just surprised !! every time someone says they like him or that they disliked him earlier but dont post-royal or etc etc it always takes me by surprise even after all this time !! it makes me very happy -though even as i focus on how happy i am that people like his character, even streamers talking about his ass (what ass... ... cindy thats bone) or etc- i shouldnt, but i still count it as a sort of win because my standards are so low ;-;.. i dont like sexualizing characters (of any gender or sexuality, dont worry ^-^'') but the point of it all is that the amount of stannery is .. stunning i think, from all ends of the fandom, when i think about how nervous vanilla felt to me. if im wording this all right.

-- that being said. obviously there are ppl who still dont like him, VEHEMENTLY, and everyone gets so passionate about him and everything that tension and fights erupt very very quickly - it makes me wonder what about royal didnt hit with them, but hit with other people, in a Genuinely Curious kind of way. not that im not suuper passionate about goroboying, because, i am !! royal makes me very happy and i stay out of fights as best as i can because i know, ACUTELY, how PAINFUL it is to have a hyperfixation broken. nauseous furious shaking heart aching - its heartbreak !! i'd rather die before i inflicted a pain like that on someone. + id rather remember something for the love i felt for it than the harm.

(though while i'm here, people who were in the "# p5r spoilers" tag remember what happened a little while ago shortly after royal jpn came out , though that's for a whole other post about the fascinating history/sociology of that particular event, 👁✨)

- its not about me having to choose between a lesser of two evils. thats not my point

no matter how intensely my heart is in it, i want to be able to say that you can feel how you feel about characters, though any misinformation sits badly with me in hyperfixation hell. funnily enough, while back on the topic of Agency, which goro is in some dire need of - which may be the root of why so many femme-presenting folk or lesbians are fond of him, + respecting women + sex workers + etc GORO AKECHI CAN BE SOMEONE SO PERSONAL ACTUALLY-

* - oh, backreading my own post - i didnt mean to specify redditors as if they're the only ppl i'm talking about, but it was the first to come to mind ; i'm just thinking a lot about how it seems like people really like the light royal was able to display him in, both as a delightfully entertaining UNHINGED EDGELORD and a very focused, goal-oriented, respectable ally, to the point that people are MUCH more open about how much they love him nowadays, which does bring me no end of joy - its no surprise that the new appreciation, as well as atlus ... highlighting ..... aspects ...... of blask ...... and the new content, of course the fandom treats him like this, - thats fandom. this is how people do i suppose. from a witness' viewpoint. hdngngm

i see all i know all 👁 i will keep all of my opinions right here and then one day i will die. but. i'll be honest. despite everything. im actually really happy.

#don't mind me #persona 5 #p5r spoilers #i mean to post more here ! the app is just slow and saddening #oops! left out 5 tweets. edited in now

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necroalx · 4 years ago

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My problem with P5R new ending (spoilers)

I’ve been asked in my curiouscat about why I have problems with P5R ending a bunch of times by now, and honestly, I can't really put it in a way that wouldn't sound personal since my dislike over the matter comes from a personal appreciation of how the themes were handled in both versions.

With that being said feel free to ignore my POV:

First I would like to mention the things I loved about P5R (with spoilers ahead):

-The gameplay improvements were just perfect.

-Akechi's character arc was top notch for me, exactly what I wanted from him and I feel very satisfied with his new interactions.

-Sumire characterization during the first 8 ranks of her confidant were pretty cool.

-The individualization of the thieves until December, I loved the showtime attacks If anything I would have wanted they added more of those between more of the thieves too.

-Maruki is an incredibly well written character and Daiki Itoh's direction for relatable antagonists shines through him, he was really what P5 needed, the timing of the new semester events may be debatable for me, but I loved everything about him.

-Also loved Jose even we didn't get that much of him.

-The final boss fight was amazing!

Anyway My problem with the P5R ending is (Also, obvious spoilers for P5 and P5R):

-Retroactively diminishes the meaning of the original ending:

P5 vanilla original ending was in a way, the ultimate message about changing the world in the most healthy way possible, seeing it as the way it should be FIRST.

There were theories about this being an altered reality, and this is proven right by the events of the last semester in P5R.Also, with the mere existence of the events of P5R new content, the original ending becomes now an inconclusive story. Which makes it ultimately a lessened ending, because "this isn't the way the story should end".

-The theme of rebellion against an unjust society gets pointlessly messy and lost in transition:

Yes, I get the subject of facing reality is a way more important topic and way more down to earth, the thieves disbanding the way they did and going their own separate ways is indeed thematically fitting and shows some growth coming from their experiences in the new semester. Still, the game being written by a different person, plus having a scenery of "kids dreaming about their perfect world given to them by a overprotective father figure" seems to in a way tarnish and overwrite their experiences gained through the whole story.

I understand this is not the message meant to be conveyed by this new ending. I know and for sure love that in Royal the thieves don't exist just for Joker's sake was their whole characters aren't defined just by his actions anymore. BUT with those things mentioned above, all these change feels like a "correction" made to express how "japanese societal expectations were ultimately right all along things are not always like how we want and you have to deal with that" instead of the original ending's more positive outlook towards the future, that's now seen as a naive handled view of how things should be, and ultimately as I mentioned before, inconclusive.

Things are clear in that regard for me, (In the original, without Maruki's existence in the plot, the thieves were granted a world were they could do "whatever they wanted", between the limits of their own cognitive knowledge of how the world worked, after defeating Yaldabaoth and getting the holy grail treasure to basically "grant them that wish" as a reward after the fusion between mementos and the real world is finished. In P5R new ending, the change is made evident by having Morgana not steal the plug from the man in black chasing the thieves Van and the thieves not taking Joker home in the new ending to give the "more realistic" approach to that matter.)

This conclusion couldn't exist until P5R came out. Since now the entirety of the new Semester concept lies on the basis that the Phantom Thieves subconsciously granted Maruki his power and caused the whole "actualization event" through wishing someone could make those ideal realities for them, with Maruki being the only one capable of seeing the world the way they would've wanted to be because of their interactions with him. I actually give them credit for this since this is a brilliant detail and makes his tragic antagonistic role even more appealing.

But that leads me to my real and biggest problem with P5R new ending:

-The phantom thieves becoming secondary characters after being the main characters and vehicles to the story in the original game and through the 80% of P5R's story.Now people would call Kasumi waifu bait and other things, hell, even I memed about it before, the reality is, she's the most important tool Itoh and the new writers used to built this new ending, she is the most important character (besides Maruki himself obviously) to make the player empathize with Maruki's motives and actions, she is a victim of her circumstances just like the rest and she's "rescued" by this overprotective father figure character found in Maruki, but he was taking away her freedom as a consequence, thus making her relevant to the game's theme of rebellion. But then she faces that reality and she has to grow out of it by... "insert Itoh favorite writing trope of the protagonist beating the crap out of the heroine to make her come back to her senses" (Same thing he did with Marie in golden). Which is ok I guess, it can be a forgivable writing sin since the built to this was pretty well done. But then... there's nothing.Kasumi is presented and forced into scenes and moments so the player realizes "this character is important, more important than the rest" from very early on, it goes from scene to scene while the original events of the vanilla game still happen, and she was not the only one of coruse, Joker Akechi and Kasumi having their little arcs separated from the rest of the cast was obviously building towards something. But then going against everything Joker did in the original game, (and through 80% of P5R since those events are still in the game obviously) he chose both Kasumi and Akechi (twice in his case) over his other friends. Yes, the thieves were trapped on their fake realities, yes they came to the rescue in the end FOR Joker. But at this point they were: Not fully aware of who Kasumi really was and her involvement with these developments, not aware of the alliance between Joker and Crow, not aware of the weird palace that's been there the whole time. ALL because Joker and Mona kept these things secret from the rest, why? What's the sound logic behind this? Why would Joker not trust his friends with such important information after all they went through? Why are they reduced to convenient sidekicks after they saved his life and proved themselves capable of doing the impossible when they all decided to work together? Why? It makes no sense. They all have been through so much with him, just days before they all were inside the velvet room alongside Joker, finding out about his most intimate aspect and sharing an irreplaceable moment of realization and conviction of together. Just for them to become anticlimactically trapped on their dream worlds and completely forgetting about Joker and their true bond with him. Sure they come back to their senses AFTER Joker triggers their true memories with some words, but this SHOULDN'T have happened after all they went through after their fight with Yaldabaoth. Call it bad timing in the writing sense, but it was a testament of how separated they become from their original role in the new story, all for the sake of these new additions. And still, we can ignore that, I can see over that and say "well it's the ultimate tentation they were never tested through", but here's were the problem lies, besides the fact of Joker never telling his friends about the things I mentioned before, he is now a fully self insert character, when 80% of the original story (which is just the vanilla game honestly) he was written as Joker being his own entity, with his own sense of justice very clearly defined and a focus towards his friends as his most precious part of his life. This is suddenly thrown to the garbage in the new semester.

Why? Because now the player has to make a choice that the original Joker wouldn't make in the original, chose Akechi over the other phantom thieves. It honestly feels like a huge regression.Don't get me wrong, I appreciate Akechi's new confidant and his amazing dynamic with Joker being exploited the best way possible. I do, I am a fan of Akechi's character archetype and his characterization in both vanilla and his new scenes in royal. I am a sucker for antagonistic villainous characters getting a proper redemption arc in convincing ways. But the price was too high for my liking.

By the price I mean; You literally CAN'T get the new TRUE (complete) ending without choosing to keep your promise with Akechi, which means, you can't see the full extent of the story conclusion, Maruki's and Kasumi's arcs won't get any closure and you will only get a now "diminished" ending (the vanilla original ending), if you don't chose to keep your promise with Akechi. A "personal" promise and one you never told your friends about. The worst part of this decision is, the whole reason Joker and Akechi's dynamic works so well is because they were originally written as pretty oposite characters with their own unique distinguished quirks morals AND sense of justice. But then, suddenly, at the climax of the story, Joker is just a self insert blank state? That just does not work.

As for Sumire, once she's brought back and awakens again, her character arc ends, she becomes just another sidekick like the rest of the thieves, which makes all the built her character was used for... what? It's not really pointless, since it brings the story to this point, but what's left for her? What's her role now? She goes back to being Kasumi in the metaverse and the optional aspect of her confidant makes this transition to her going back to being Sumire feel kind of ambiguous and also inconclusive. Yes I know she is honoring the memory of her sister and that she has accepted her reality, that's true, but the development comes to a sudden turn when she suddenly becomes just another one in the crew behind Goro and Joker. All the phantom thieves had their roles cleared out beforehand soon after their insertion arcs were finished, Ann was the conscience of the team, always asking "are we doing the right thing?" Yusuke was the same, always second guessing every choice with a worst case scenario since as he said in his awakening "in order to see true authenticity, one has to be dispassionately realistic", Ryuji was always the one going for it and wanting things getting done he's the focus, Makoto is the advisor, so she became the clear headed tactician, Futaba was the tool device, she became the medium to the ends always finding ways to work around towards their goals, Mona is the heart and the hope representing their wish to inspire society through their actions, Haru was the kindness, a reminder of what are they trying to inspire and a source of tolerance the thieves were missing until she joined in. Sumire was... what? This honestly bothered me, made me feel the whole journey was just a bad joke, because now not only the phantom thieves were reduced to mere sidekicks, so was the one character with most promise in the story while Goro became the player's beating husband through Joker, a testament of the choice he made of choosing the image they made the player have of Akechi, the one person Joker couldn't save, the one who's beyond saving at thins point over the friends and family he did saved. By the way, as contradictory as it may sound, I loved the twist, having Akechi's life depending on the final choice for true freedom, it was clever, it added the right heart wrenching moment right before the climax, what I didn't like was how clear it was made at this point how little the other thieves mattered. Why? Have the phantom thieves ever sent a calling card without having giving their full agreement? Especially when a new important development could come up from their actions at the last moment? Not until this point, Goro's life was on the line here, he was an ally now, he was a phantom thief member, they all agreed to this. But were they informed of this last minute development by Joker, you know, so they could all agree to what was the right thing to do like they all had swear to do every time? No, because Joker made that decision himself, because all that mattered was the player decision the self insert decision. Hell not even a cheap text group chat scene, nothing.You can say "this is a personal thing between Joker and Goro and a personal choice for Akechi". Well sure, yet they were all about to put their lives at risk for this, like they've been doing this whole time. They would've argued they deserved to know this, even if they had reached the same conclusion at the end, but with this, in a story that focuses so much on details, whatever oath the phantom thieves had before this, became meaningless. The player can once again just like with Yaldabaoth chose to ruin everyone's chance for true freedom by choosing a selfish self inserted reasoning out of the blue to get a "bad end". Honestly, I also felt the original bad end in vanilla P5 was bad but this? This was worst, this took things to another level, sure the angst was well written and the suffering masked behind this fake happiness was very clever, but its also so cheapened because at this point, why would the player care about those other characters if you make this choice? They were sidelined so bad that their "happiness" becomes just flavor to the story and to be honest, the good decision was just as selfish because of this. I have no problems with the final boss fight, it was honestly amazing and almost made me forget all that happened before when I first played it because it was just so over the top and emotional, I honestly loved it. But then comes the final cut-scenes. Skip Joker going back to prison (why even bother with that though? He literally went just for 10 days and every value of the sacrifice he made in the original was now lost because of the new semester events), skip the the decisions the thieves made about their futures, their display of individuality was great but they don't matter at this point anyway. And here's the final insult, yes I am salty because the "main party" didn't take Joker home, but not because they didn't go through the action of taking him home, but because they weren't really doing anything relevant if anything at all after being the main characters the whole game (except for the new semester) No closure for them just quirkiness and flavor for the sake of a "reality" based message, felt cheap and dismissive, like someone not wanting to go through the trouble of writing something for characters they didn't create or even like. Why did I called the P5R ending lazy you ask? Because they didn't bother making an ending at all, but just to rewrite the original in a way the message of "reality" is settled over, sure their individuality is highlighted by not taking joker home and them being focused on their own different things on their lives, but so they were in the original, this ending and them being sent away was made at the price of the relevance of the thieves bonds with Joker once again, I would've been ok if we at least got to see more of THEM as individuals through the ending or even just as a group, hell this was the final time we'll see them and they were our most precious allies, maybe give us some time with them for the sake of the experiences we had, they did that with Golden's epilogue after all, why not here? But instead, we just see them just go around town being quirky and sneaky distracting the corrupt policemen while Joker gets his new cut-scenes goodbyes with the new characters in the game, because they deserve closure as well for sure, yet they do so over the others? In my opinion, at this point, no. But they did just that, they declared with this change that, the phantom thieves members weren't needed and their futures and story were irrelevant, it was all about Joker, Goro, Maruki and Kasumire, the rest were just sidekicks and these scenes were more important so the player can get what happens to these new favorites, all at the price of the original team relevance. That, was my problem with the new ending. Of course I'm happy to know about their futures and choices through the credits, but that's just lazy, they were more relevant than that in the original, but now they're just afterthoughts shown through credit scenes. No relevance whatsoever in their final moments in this story. It certainly hurt seeing them being this diminished after the original made me care about these characters so much.You can say to me "well, there's still the vanilla ending for you" but no, I said it before, retroactively that ending has become irrelevant and inconclusive, which means this is now how the phantom thieves are represented as, Joker's sidekicks, not a team of bandits and misfits working together as a unit like it was in the original. Again, this is my very personal take on the game new ending, feel free to disagree and call me a clown, but the original made a huge impact on me, the events of P5R ending wounded my appreciation for this story, not it's characters, not the theme, just the future they'll write for these characters from now on. That is all.

Sorry about this Essay lol, but this is the only way I could fully communicate everything It made me feel wrong about this new ending. It was not just a matter of preference for me.

#persona 5 #p5r spoilers #Persona 5 Royal #my take

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chrismerle · 4 years ago

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what’s up i spent way too long typing up a post about my thoughts on P5S, and it isn’t even all encompassing. i guess if you’re curious about anything i didn’t mention in this trainwreck just ask.

my spoiler-heavy thoughts/pseudo-review below the cut

THINGS I LIKED:

The characterization, broadly speaking. If you, like me, loved the Thieves in P5/P5R then you’ll be pretty happy with them here. There are a couple moments that made me roll my eyes (lookin’ at you, hot springs) but on the whole, the main cast are unchanged.

The new characters. Sophia and Zenkichi are great. Sophia is precious and Zenkichi straddles a very fine line of ‘realistically out of the loop, but gives as good as he gets.’ I don’t even care how silly their costumes were. Sophie looked like the Stay Puff Marshmallow Man, though I did like her little emoticon visor, but also she had no pants. Wolf’s mask was badass but the fact that his stupid pointy hat was riveted to the top of his stupid disco high collar killed it and I wanted to see someone grab his hat and pull it back to see it fling back into place like a drinky-drinky bird. Even so, the characters were great, and when I noticed that all the attacks for Sophie’s initial pseudo-Persona had question marks after them (Kouga? Dia?), it made me laugh, and Wolf’s a good all-purpose party member because he hits like a fucking truck and nothing is immune to Almighty. Plus in some of his post-battle dialogue he calls them all ‘kiddos’ and they consistently call him Gramps.

The gameplay. I mean, yeah, it’s VERY different than P5, but you all know that. And hey! The game no longer immediately ends if Joker gets knocked out (unless he’s the only one left in the party, obviously). It ran pretty smoothly, there’s something weirdly charming about the other Thieves showing up perched on cover points, and the only consistent issue I ran into is that in segments where the camera gets forced into a certain angle, it can switch back so abruptly at the end that you accidentally go walking right off a ledge.

I’ve never really played a Dynasty Warriors-type game before, so it took me a Jail or so to get used to it, but then I was just cackling as I mowed down swarms of Jack Frosts like a weed-whacker in a flower field with a knife the size of Joker’s torso. Honestly, it took me the longest to get used to the fact that the circle button became the all-purpose ‘interact’ button than anything else.

Actually, that’s a lie. It took me the longest to get used to the fact that if I left a Jail, I wouldn’t be losing any time. I’m very used to Persona games having the calendar constantly counting down, which wasn’t the case here.

The story, broadly speaking. It had some hiccups and some issues, which I’ll get into, but for the most part, it was fun. I’m...not going to outline every detail of the story here, but it felt very P5-y and I enjoyed it.

THINGS I LIKED BUT THAT NEEDED WORK:

The writing. It was a little inconsistent, beyond just the usual weirdness that I have accepted comes along with Persona games. (//patiently clicks through numerous conversations of the gang going ‘did this super obvious thing that this memory threw in our faces happen? Let’s debate about whether the most likely answer by a huge margin is the answer’ and several conversations of ‘are we sure this person is bad? We saw them playing nice, like literally every other villain we’ve faced’) A lot was great! Like, the bit with the Okinawa locals breaking into the RV while the kids hide in the bushes? Genuinely unsettling! Akane’s Jail and the fake Thieves was fun, and seeing Zenkichi scuttle from hiding place to hiding place without Thief powers was funny, and his Shadow’s glowing eyes watching him before becoming his Persona was both badass and unsettling. The realization that EMMA was actively lying to Konoe was nice. Character interactions were great and I loved that Sophia went with Ichinose at the end. There was a lot that was good. But there were also a lot of missteps.

Like, it kind of felt like the direction for the writing changed partway through. It started out as if each member of the Phantom Thieves was going to get their own time to shine, identifying and empathizing with a Monarch. Ann realized she could have been Alice. Yusuke realized he could have been Ango and also saw redeeming him as sort of like redeeming Madarame by proxy. Mariko was a link to Haru’s childhood and her father. The ghost Jail on Okinawa lured Sophie in and by the end she realized how much she meant to her friends ryuji said fuck. Akane was Zenkichi’s literal daughter. And then it went to Konoe and then EMMA, so Ryuji, Futaba, Morgana, Makoto, and Joker didn’t get a chance to shine in that regard. The switch from ‘a Jail for everyone to identify with’ to ‘whelp here’s the decoy and the end boss’ felt like they came from two separate drafts of the script, and it’s not like they had to watch the time; I got through P5S in about a third the time it took me to get through P5R. It took me about 35 hours. Considering the game kind of relies on you having played P5, they already knew their target audience has a longer attention span than that.

Owada was talked up as kind of a big deal, but he had like two scenes on-screen and otherwise was an entirely off-screen character. There’s a lot of mid-combat dialogue that is very difficult to focus on, which was sort of annoying when some of it was actually relevant. Ichinose’s reveal as a villain is very info-dump-y.

Plus, Joker wasn’t utilized particularly well as a silent protagonist. He’s got more implied personality than basically any other Persona protag. Which means he’s actually pretty expressive throughout the game, but I can probably count his lines of dialogue outside of combat with fingers left over. No one expects Yu Narukami to actually react to anything, so it doesn’t feel odd when he doesn’t. But the combination of Joker being reasonably expressive and having a demonstrated personality means you’re perpetually EXPECTING and WANTING him to say something about the shit going on, and when he doesn’t it feels like mentally missing a stair.

THINGS THAT I DIDN’T LIKE:

The cut corners. Like, a lot of things just seem lazy. There were scenes that really should have been included that weren’t, like how the Thieves escaped from the hotel after the police showed up; it cut from Zenkichi warning them and getting arrested to them arriving at the temporary hideout, so we never even got to see how the Thieves reacted to realizing the cops were outside. Requests to bond with the other Thieves only got a couple of text boxes, when they could have shown a tiny scene of them hanging out like they had all over P5. Rather than having Sae actually on-screen for her brief scene, the camera instead very unnaturally switched to an angle as if it was from her point of view, which was literally the only time the camera did that in the entire game. All of the Sentries look the same from Jail to Jail, instead of being unique to each Jail. Igor is completely absent for the entire game, and other than a throwaway ‘my master can’t be here’ from Lavenza it’s just not really acknowledged.

The missed opportunities. Like, there is no way to look at this except to assume that Joker was a horrible friend to literally everyone in this world state. Like, I can pass off the fact that everyone has their baseline Personae as being because they haven’t had access to their powers for a while, but when you combine it with the fact that NONE of Joker’s other confidants show up or even know he’s back in Tokyo, it leaves little to assume except that in this world, no confidants got maxed out. On top of that, the Personae are all basically pointless. They could be Pokemon or Stands or Digimon or fucking YuGiOh cards, and it wouldn’t make a difference; NOTHING about the game says ‘these entities are integral to this world and important to these characters.’ Also they could have had Akane actually realize who the Thieves were and it would have been hysterical, but that’s just my personal sulk.

The Requests. I liked the Mementos missions in P5/P5R. They felt like they had a point. Requests in P5S are all basically just fetch quests. ‘Go to Location A, fight so many of Enemy B to get so many of Item C. Turn in Request.’ Hell, one of them bugged out on me, I swear. There’s a Request to teach Zenkichi how to cook a simple meal, and Haru gives you a recipe including beef. I had no beef on me at the time, because if you want SP restoratives you gotta cook a fair amount and I used it, and I could find literally no beef in the city I was in at the time so I had to abandon the Request. On top of that, outside of getting food or a few moments where another character specifically asks for Joker’s attention, character-specific Requests mostly replace the ability to bond with the other characters individually.

The restoratives. Or, more specifically, the disparity between HP restoratives and SP restoratives. There’s essentially one cookable recipe to restore SP for every four recipes to restore HP. Even if I stopped at every store and vending machine, I’m pretty sure there were a couple cities where I could find NO SP restoratives for sale, while most stores and vending machines had at least two or three HP restoratives. And while it is true that you can go in and out of a Jail whenever you please to restore SP, that doesn’t help you if you run out during a boss fight you weren’t expecting (mini-boss encounters are virtually identical to regular monster encounters) or during one of the times where you CAN’T leave the Jail for reasons XYZ.

The final boss, and not just because I died and had to start over a few times. As a concept, EMMA could be cool, but in reality she just seemed like the writers threw Yaldabaoth and Maruki in a blender and poured the results into the game. Like Yaldabaoth, she is a false god who seeks to control humanity, claiming it’s what they want. Like Maruki, she seems genuinely deluded into thinking it’s for the best and that she’s not doing anything wrong. Her Jail looked like a slightly sci-fi reskin of the Depths of Mementos. The shtick with the multiple platforms and getting to actually SEE an all-out attack at the end were nice, but for the most part the fight itself was nothing special. Ultimately, EMMA had nothing unique going for her except her name.

Plus, EMMA’s entire rationale was that the majority of humans want someone else to control their lives for them, essentially out of convenience. And she’s presented as being more or less right, but that just being one of the hurdles of being human. It seemed a little dour and far-fetched. Like, the Thieves repeatedly point out that struggling allows people to grow, and they’re right, but in my experience, I’ve never actually met anyone who, upon hitting a roadblock, decided ‘Jesus take the wheel.’ Considering the greed with which her weird tentacle arms snatched up the solidified Desires, the pettiness of the complaints she used as a “gotcha,” and the fact that she just kind of reiterates her ‘people want to be controlled’ point over and over, I think it would have felt a bit more true to life and given her more agency if, instead of presenting her as largely correct, it instead acknowledged that everyone at some time or another hits a wall and wants someone to tell them what to do and had her capitalizing on those individual brief moments to hook people in, despite her having reams of data that for most people, those moments are temporary.

#persona 5 strikers #persona 5 strikers spoilers

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phantom-thieves-official · 5 years ago

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What did you think of P5R's ending? (I'm sorry if you already said this)

I've talked about it briefly while discussing my thoughts on the game overall, but I've had some time to think on it now & here's my current opinion:

The ending was... fine. I don't dislike the decision to have all the characters go their own way, and although for most of them that seems like the logical step in their character development, my emotional side wants them to all stay together.

Speaking of, some of the futures the characters said they were pursuing were better than others. Haru, who's confidant focuses heavily on struggling to run Okumura foods & pursue her ideas for the company, is going to college for business. Great, love it. Futaba, who's character growth pretty much all centers on putting herself out there & living a normal life without anxiety getting in the way, is going to high school. Perfect, also nicely opposes the scene in her confidant where you show her around Shujin and she ends up feeling anxious & sad. Ann is going to go all in on whatever she thinks will help with her modeling, choosing to study abroad in pursuit of that goal. Good! Her arc, while it's not the main focus, does have smaller elements centered on her learning to tackle things head-on and take them more seriously, her modeling being one of them (in fact, part of her confidant explicitly states she previously only thought of modeling as a hobby and she now wants to work at it seriously.)

Ryuji's goal to start doing track again seems very opposed to his confidant arc, but I can't quite say it's entirely bad. His confidant never implies he doesn't want to run anymore, just that he doesn't want to go back to the track team. I suppose joining a track team at a different school isn’t in direct opposition with his lack of desire to join Shujin's team again. It still doesn't sit quite right with me, but it's not as bad as I initially thought. Plus, it's good to see Ryuji actively pursuing something rather than settling for the troublemaker role he's been boxed into. He strikes me as the least ambitious character, partially bc of the box he's been put in, so I'm happy to see him taking the initiative. And this might be a small thing but he also mentions he's going to run again because he likes it & wants to, but multiple times beforehand we've seen at least part of his reasoning before was in the hopes of getting a scholarship to help his mom (not to imply he didn't love track before, just that it's good to see him pursue something solely bc he wants to, yknow?)

The worst of the bunch are Yusuke & Makoto, who are given no stated goals of any real substance. Yusuke is simply hoping to finish his painting, and Makoto is.... moving out to live on her own. Neither of these seem particularly impactful nor relevant to the characters' growth (Makoto's especially seems lackluster considering a good portion of her growth is about her finding her own path & pursuing the goals and future she wants/believes in. But when it comes time for the game to show her doing this, she makes no decisions at all.)

I feel that, on the whole, the narrative would have been better served if Akechi had legitimately survived Shido’s palace. Maruki brought him back to life, and it’s safe to assume he willingly turned himself in (as in, that was not Maruki twisting reality, that was his decision made entirely on his own). But Lindsey, I hear you cry, Akechi’s character growth centered around him finally making his own decisions, no longer being manipulated and controlled, and that’s exemplified when he chooses to reject Maruki despite knowing he will return to a reality in which he’s dead! And sure. I’ll give you that. But the same ideas could have been presented in any number of ways. If I am to believe Akechi’s character truly does center on the idea that he is finally a) able to and b) allowing himself to make his own choices; to decide the truth of things for himself; then why did it have to be shown in a way that still ends with his death? I have a few big problems with Akechi’s fate. One: dying is the easy way out. Instead of being forced to face the consequences of his crimes (something he was willing to do, as he did turn himself in) he dies. He escapes the consequences related to the things he’s done, which feels especially bad when I consider that he was willing to face the consequences. He was at the start of a properly-handled redemption! And instead of seeing that through, they killed him off still. Two: Through Akechi’s confidant, both in vanilla p5 and p5r, it’s obvious one of the things he’s least capable of facing & expressing his honest feelings about are the Phantom Thieves, Joker in particular. The scene where he dies he gets called out for it, as he’s acting like he hates Joker and doesn’t care; acting like he truly wants Joker dead; but in truth he does care. He does want friends and teammates and he does like Joker. He doesn’t want to kill Joker. But he’s so under Shido’s thumb and so deep in his own head that he can’t be honest - and when he finally comes to his senses, he’s killed. Now please consider. If his growth is even in part supposed to be about him deciding the truth for himself, then doesn’t it stand to reason that he should be given the chance to make his own choices about his friendship with Joker, clear of Shido’s influence? He should be allowed to rectify things. He should be given the opportunity to rebuild the relationship, after facing the consequences he deserves, of course. His feelings towards Joker were clearly such a huge point of contention in his confidant, it is baffling to me that he isn’t given any sort of closure on that at all. His working with the group in Maruki’s palace doesn’t come close to the sort of arc he should have gotten, as it’s an almost begrudging alliance formed out of necessity and not in any way is it Akechi forming his own honest opinion about Joker.

Maruki could have died when his Palace collapsed and I wouldn’t have cared. He’s got a sob story but that doesn’t excuse his full-blown god complex and the incredible depravity of just deciding what’s best for people and forcing that upon them. I wish he actually faced any repercussions, truth be told, but he doesn’t. He just shows up happy as can be at the end. He got off wayy too easy.

#long post #mod answers #asks #p5r spoilers #dude im so sorry abt rambling this got so out of hand #wow im advocating for akechi to live. never thought id see the day.

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mbtiofwhys · 4 years ago

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Persona 5 and how MBTI can expose writing (in)consistency

Disclaimer

We’re studying writing and narratology as self taught, we are passionate about narrative in general and we believe in MBTI as a tool to analyse things and frame both reality and fiction in a different way. These are our opinions on the matter of how MBTI can be useful in approaching plot and character consistency, but don’t take it as a scientific paper;

We’re writing this article after a good 3 runs and various hundred of hours spent in this game per mod. We’ve already analysed the whole main cast and tried to explore everyone of them more in depth, so please don’t take anything in this article as an attack to a certain character or the game as a whole. We love P5 and P5R wholeheartedly - for this reason, we can’t overlook problems when they arise;

Big huge enormous spoilers for both P5 and P5R.

Premise

Characters are the most important element of a story - yes, even more important than the plot. Especially if you consider that a plot is, basically, characters doing stuff to reach a goal. Lots of stories revolve around a particular event or atmosphere, a fictional world to explore, or an issue, but there will always be characters in them because, as human beings, we’re attracted to people, their flaws and their problems.

So, if characters are the basis of a story, going deeper we see how fictional works tell us about how and why people overcome hardships and become a better person in the process (tragedies surely exist, but they aren’t the norm). That’s what is called the transformation arc.

That being said, how do we use MBTI? Since cognition is essential and behaviors mean nothing, we tend to look at characters both from a narrative and metanarrative standpoint. This means putting aside what characters do or what they like, and focusing on how they gain information, make decision and what are their motives. Since stories tell us about people and their struggles, it’s interesting to understand why characters act in a certain way, what really moves them forward.

This approach, inevitably, must compromise with the fact that fiction is made by people, and people can make mistakes. Works of fiction aren’t flawless and sometimes, trying to find what type a character is, is a way to bring light to those problems. Rules are a social construct, they’re fluid and constantly change, but they also provide useful tools to analyze stories, discovering their strength and their flaws. So, stories aren’t defined solely on strict rules, however MBTI can push one to better understand what is a good story or a well-written character and, vice-versa, why stories can fail to amaze us.

Why Persona 5?

Because it’s an excellent case study to show both how our typing process must adapt to face different situations, and what means to analyse a wide cast of characters that aren’t always perfectly written. The cast, though, is diverse enough that you can have characters with similar or opposite types that interact for 100+ hours, and this creates a very interesting setting for comparison and conflict.

Moreover, the confidant system can be a golden source MBTI-wise, because, if properly developed, a confidant can give us great insights about the character, or show other sides of them outside the main plot.

Tropes and typing

Persona 5 offers really great examples of what means to differentiate between typology and tropes when typing. Since we’re talking about fictional characters, we must acknowledge that sometimes there is a correlation between certain tropes/archetypes and certain types (mbtinotes on Tumblr talks about this more in depth here: https://mbti-notes.tumblr.com/spotting#fiction ). This, though, isn’t a rule and mustn’t become a limitation when typing, because cognitive functions work regardless of tropes, exactly as they do regardless of behaviors. P5 has both types that follow the tropes they are often associated with, and types that are completely different.

Ryuji is one of the main example belonging to the first case. He matches the Book dumb and Dumb blonde tropes, alongside with the Hot-blooded and Idiot hero ones. Those traits are usually linked to Se doms: always hungry and with lots of energy. In Ryuji’s case, though, he’s not an ESFP (only) because he’s loud and reckless, but also due to his approach to life and general cognitive process. That being said, it’s also true that he embodies the most common conception of what an ESFP looks like.

A similar example also applies to Akechi: he’s presented as the smart ace detective (The Ace) and later on as the mastermind traitor. He possesses many traits often linked to ENTJs, especially when they’re the villain, antagonist or anti-hero of the story. This doesn’t serve as a limit to his character though, and Akechi shares the majority of a young ENTJ’s cognitive process, alongside with some of its tropes.

On the other hand, P5 also offers characters belonging to the second case, for whom only looking at their tropes and role in the plot can be misleading typing-wise.

It's the case of Futaba: she’s an INFP according to our typing process, however the game always stresses her quirky and antisocial side, something so strong it defines her as a person even after her narrative arc. This is why many people type her as INTP, since those traits are often linked to Ti doms, high Ne users or rationalist types.

Another example is Yusuke: we typed him INTJ even though the community often refers to him as an ISFP. Our main complain regarding Yusuke as an ISFP is about how this type is justified only using the tropes he’s associated with. Since Yusuke is a bizarre artist and a weirdo, he must also be an ISFP in love with painting, art and beauty, right? Well, this is true, but not because he’s an ISFP. His behaviors don’t stem from an ISFP cognition, rather from the one of an INTJ, in our opinion.

Narrative arcs

Narrative arcs define the plot, but (following a shonen structure) they also sadly tend to be too much stand alone in the game, especially when it comes to character development. This leads to a situation where characters shine in their narrative arc, but then just sit in the background for the rest of the game, as a part of the Phantom Thieves. This isn’t entirely a bad thing, since Persona 5 revolves around a large cast of characters and tends to focus more on the group as a whole, so this structure suits the game’s leitmotif appropriately. However, narrative arcs surely enhance what we said about tropes and stereotypes, not always in a good way.

There’s also the problem of characters following the plot/comic gags instead of the opposite. A story may undoubtedly be full of gags and fanservice without it compromising its characters and their purpose inside the narration, but problems arise when said characters must adhere to rules set by the plot, rather than being realistic people freely taking actions and making mistakes.

More specifically, we’re referring to:

Ann and harassment

This, in our opinion, is the most emblematic case about narrative arcs and how they tend to be isolated from the rest of the game. Ann’s arc doesn’t revolve around a big issue, differently from others later on where the Phantom Thieves face threats against the entire Japan. However, Kamoshida feels like a real villain and the pain inflicted to his students isn’t less relevant than other issues. The firs arc tells us a story about harassment, how it may lead to victim blaming, social exclusion and extreme actions like Shiho’s attempted suicide. So, the game surely starts with a realist and captivating take, but what lies after it? Sadly, not much. From that moment on, Ann still remains the most sexualised member of the group and is often the one whose body is used as a tool to gain intel or other useful things - Yusuke’s modeling affair and the second letter of recommendation on Shido’s ship are just two blatant example.

And while Ryuji’s confidant is simple and straightforward yet still works properly, Ann’s one can be dull, revolving around characters less interesting and engaging than the ones we see during Kamoshida’s arc. Moreover, her confidant takes place while Shiho is still recovering, so we see her mentioned only few times.

Makoto and duty

Every awakening in Persona 5 is thrilling and moving but, speaking for us mods, we think that Makoto has one of the most galvanizing. Her arc embraces the leitmotif of rebellion and it works even better than the others since she always appears as a diligent and polite student. But is there something more after her awakening? Sadly, as we saw for Ann, the answer is no. Makoto’s confidant is plain, a simple solution placed by developers to show her personality while introducing new characters. It works, but it doesn’t give a further twist to the premise the game showed during her awakening. Not to mention that, despite her decision to less blindly follow the rules, Makoto is often relegated to the mom friend/dutiful student role, reminding others of rules and schoolwork and stuff. Yes, she has a relevant role in Sae’s arc, but we still find her confidant lacking what is shown during Kaneshiro’s arc.

Futaba and self growth

Futaba’s arc is interesting on many levels, especially because we see how a hikikomori undergoing severe traumas can overcome them, thus becoming a healthier person. Even though her arc is one of the most emotional in the game, Futaba quickly resets to a stage where she’s more of a comic relief than a vivid character and she often kicks in just to mock the other thieves or to solve problems tied to computer science and technology. Yes, this is coherent to her character, at the same time it often closes her in stereotypes since Futaba is limited by those roles rather than showing her new and mature side.

Kasumi and Sumire and the lack of closure

Sumire’s arc and confidant deal with finding acceptance and a new balance between her old and new self, since Sumire slowly accepts her sister’s death. Or, at least, this is what the game tries to convey to the players. We love what Persona 5 Royal added to the main game and we played both versions for hundred of hours, however we must admit how both of us mods found lack of proper character development throughout Sumire’s confidant. Her arc does a great job in showing how much pain she had to endure and how she begins to live with her sister’s death. But at the same time her confidant doesn’t give her a new starting point, in our opinion. Why? Because reaching rank ten with Sumire means that she just finds a new way to be tied to Kasumi, and not in a completely healthy way. Sumire admits how gymnastic was a way to be together with her sister and how she loved accessory activities tied to the sport, like eating ice cream after training, more than the sport itself. So, Sumire never really cared about the competitive side of gymnastic and, at the end of her confidant, it seems like she sticks with it just as a way to be tied to Kasumi again. Yes, this is surely a healthier way than the one she took with Maruki’s help, and we know how our opinion regarding Sumire can be controversial, at the same time we don’t think her confidant truly ends her arc properly.

What has typing every character highlighted?

After 3 playthroughs, two platinum trophies and many hours spent discussing this group of punks, we used MBTI to give a structure to our articles and, unexpectedly, we often had to slightly change our approach in typing the main cast. It’s been a huge project of analysis, research, reading online discussions and further learning. In the end, we’d like to write down our own conclusion about these characters. This specific section might be a bit more about our personal opinions, though.

Protagonist (ENFP)

Typing the protagonist was the wildest part of this project. Since he’s mostly an avatar controlled by the player, we knew everything had to be taken with a grain of salt. We separated canon from player’s choices, as a way to find what makes the protagonist a real character (sadly, not as much as he would have deserved). We also tried not to rely too much on gameplay mechanics in typing. In the end, we progressed by process of elimination, discarding the option that surely didn’t fit. We agreed on ENFP for him, but ENTP isn’t a bad match either. Even if a character so malleable by the player can’t be associated to a single type so easily, we do believe that a starting point somehow exists. Our hope for the future is that in new games we’ll get to play a real character, though.

Morgana (ESTJ)

Morgana was pretty hard to type, especially regarding the perceiving axis - which is a pity, because he’s not the stock ESTJ type of character. But since he’s the mascot of the Phantom Thieves, Morgana is often even more stereotyped than the other characters. He decently shows his dominant function during the game, but way less his auxiliary and tertiary ones, since his personality gets subdued by his function as the sidekick of the protagonist.

Ryuji (ESFP)

We talked above how tropes aren’t always detrimental and Ryuji is the perfect example of this concept. He was the easiest character to type, due to his simple (yet defined) personality. Ryuji demonstrates how a character doesn’t have to be complex or multifaceted to be interesting and loveable.

Ann (ESFJ)

Ann is the opposite case of Ryuji: a character driven by plot rather than by being a vivid person. We aren’t saying we dislike Ann (honestly there isn’t a thief we properly dislike), but we must admit how typing her was really difficult, and not because she’s too complex. It’s safe to assume she’s a Fe dom, however the game doesn’t give any solid clue about her perceiving axis - we traced down Si only by elimination and because her confidant show a clear FeNe loop, but otherwise the game offers nearly no clue of her Si (or Ti). Ann’s personality can’t shine properly in a game where, outside her narrative arc, she often has to follow the role of the ‘attractive/supportive character’ assigned to her.

Yusuke (INTJ)

Yusuke is an interesting case: typing him wasn’t easy, but, contrary to Ann, just because he’s more complex than he may appear. Under the ‘artist’ trope (that misled the majority of the community towards ISFP) there’s a character with less predictable sides and a well-written arc. Also, a very nice example of a non-textbook INTJ, since these types are often associated with science and/or greater battles in life. Yusuke was a nice surprise to find.

Makoto (ISTJ)

Typing Makoto was a bit of a slow process, since there isn’t a popular type assigned to her by the community. At the same time, identifying her cognitive functions wasn’t too hard, so we can at least say she’s a relatively solid character, meaning that even if she’s mostly a textbook ISTJ, she still shows the development process of her inferior Ne and tertiary Fi in her confidant. Her growth is pretty linear, and the problem lies precisely in the lack of a proper twist in her personality, since she could have been far more interesting and less predictable.

Futaba (INFP)

Futaba was hands down the hardest character to type, since she’s tied to all the stereotypes of being quirky, asocial and nerd, usually associated with INTPs. Futaba perfectly shows how a theoretically well-written character can’t shine under specific circumstances: she has an emotional and complex arc, which was in fact our starting point in typing her, since it’s a pretty clear example of a FiSi loop. Yet, she acts more as a comic relief or as a source to solve IT-related problems, and her functions aren’t properly shown.

Haru (INFJ)

Despite the meme of Atlus hating her and not giving her the proper screen time (which isn’t untrue), Haru was pretty easy to type. She’s a nice example of how a character doesn’t have to follow his type’s tropes to feel real. Haru isn’t the typical daydreaming INFJ with a saviour complex, and in fact she gets sometimes mistyped as INFP. Unluckily, as for Ann, the game doesn’t do a good job in giving her a well-rounded personality, and in fact finding evidences of her third and fourth functions was pretty hard.

Goro (ENTJ)

Akechi is probably the most multifaceted and complex character in the game, at least in P5 vanilla - we believe Maruki lowkey stole that record in Royal. However, since he’s a well-written one (even if he still lacks a proper narrative arc, to a certain extent), Akechi wasn’t hard to type. The most interesting thing is that he may seem the classic ENTJ with a psychopath/killer personality, but in reality, he probably doesn’t suffer from any mental illness, and his character revolves around what happens when functions are used unhealthily, or are excessively underdeveloped. For this exact reason, though, we find a pity that the game doesn’t properly address the consequences and aftermath of a teen that had to commit severe crimes and murder people to find a place in life.

Kasumi (ENFP) and Sumire (ISFJ)

There’s a lot to say about Kasumi and Sumire, especially regarding their role in the plot and their confidants. Typing them wasn’t easy, since we only see Kasumi through Sumire’s actions, and both of them have a half-confidant instead of a proper one each. So, with both sisters we had to proceed a bit by process of elimination, since they appear for a relatively short time and without super strong evidences of their types despite a few functions. Sadly, they highlighted how writing characters for plot’s sake rather than by making them vivid may lead to incomplete narrative arcs.

We’ve come to the end of this article. Thank you for reading!

This officially concludes our journey with the P5 main cast - it’s been a wonderful experience to learn more about both MBTI and the characters of the game we loved so much. If you want to discuss things with us, we’ll gladly listen. You can reach out here on Tumblr in comments, asks and dms, as well as on Instagram.

(And, if you’re interested, we’ve also wrote about Maruki, Sojiro and Tae).

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