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crimsoncold · 5 months ago

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AEMONDSA: A crack ship with unexpected depth and appeal

A treatise (in four parts) on the intriguing parallels and complementary contrasting of Aemond and Sansa and the subsequent allure of them as a romantic pairing in Fanfic

- from the perspective of a sansa-stan, jonsa + sansa-centric multishipper, and someone who is generally Targ critical

Now while my general stance of "ship and let ship/don't worry so much about what other people in fandom focus on or ship/etc" still stands i wanted to do a little write up on what I've found so appealing about this particular crack ship.

Not to justify it (again fandom and shipping in general is just about enjoying/thinking about fictional characters and scenarios... no one needs to justify why their imagination likes to think about two characters interacting romantically) but because there isn't a ton of metas addressing the interesting parallels between these characters and the appeal of them as a ship so I wanted to make one so the handful of people who do ship it get to see some more positive engagement/responses to this pairing.

I just unexpectedly ended up loving this pairing so much and I always have a particularly strong urge to contribute to fandom content on the rare pairs/crack ships that I like....So here have a deep dive into the parallels, and contrasting but complimentary aspects of Aemond and Sansa, and the unexpected appeal of Aemond x Sansa as a pairing in fanfiction...

PART 1: MY EXPERIENCE WITH ASOIAF/GOT & HOTD FANDOM AND WHY AEMONDSA IS A PLEASANT SURPRISE

So I'm going to be drawing from both book and show elements when I consider and compare Sansa and Aemond's characterization and plot arcs (particularly since this tends to be how they are handled in fanfic- which all have differing combinations of book or show canon for both characters)

(this is a HOTD S2-free zone though... HOTD's writing has certainly not improved and it's inconsistencies even compared to their past writing and characterization of many characters including Aemond has made such an absolute mess so for this post I'm ignoring the worst part of HBO's attempt at making hotd fanfiction i.e. S2- and I am basing my understanding of Aemond on a combination of what can be gleaned from book canon and s1 because that was what initially interested me AND because that is what the aemondsa fanfic I've read has also been based on)

Now Just to set the scene for my journey as a stark fan, jonsa shipper, and generally targ critical person to become an appreciator of aemondsa...

GOT had a steep decline in quality in the later seasons and HOTD despite the incredible effort of the actors/sfx people was not particularly good to start with in terms of writing/storytelling...yet disappointing or poorly written shows are not without their appeal for participating in fandom and reading/writing related fanfiction, particularly when there is a handful of interesting characters-looking at you stark kids who suffered through the writing of GOT's later seasons and HOTD's team green-that fans want to rescue from the terrible writing/butchering by the showrunners and to explore alternative stories/endings for them... sometimes it is even one of the most appealing sort of set up for fandom/fanfiction to take over and fix things.

I was already a huge Sansa fan, and she was the original draw for me towards asoiaf/got fandom and fanfiction, and while jonsa has been and remains my favorite pairing for her I've always been open to dabbling in various other sansa pairings/crack ships.

(While the parallels don't take the exact form as the ones between Sansa and Jon- and obviously aemondsa isn't accompanied with the incredible foreshadowing and potential that jonsa is- this pairing still feels similarly compelling due to the sheer amount of parallels between the two characters and for the fact that its a ship that is appealing and seems quite fitting without fanfic writers having to stray too far from canon personalities/back stories to make them work as a romantic pairing- beyond you know the obvious aspect of them being alive at the same time)

When HOTD first came out and before i discovered Ameondsa was a thing I was staying away from HOTD fanfic for the most part despite my interest in a few of the characters

HOTD's most predominant focus in both it's fandom and fanfiction seemed to be Rhaenyra/Team black/ Daemyra centric- all of which I was at just personally not drawn. Aemond (hot dramatic anime antagonist transported into hbo's HOTD and personal favorite of mine) centric fics unfortunately tended towards shipping him with various TB characters or TB OCs but both as a concept and due to the handling/set up these fics were generally not appealing to me (more on this later).

Furthermore hotd fandom itself seemed to be shaping up into a new edition of targ stan centric fandom- specifically a new "team black only" brand of stanning... which is definitely not something I am interested in.

Being someone admittedly anti targ/targ critical in general who just happened to be more intrigued (and sympathetic) to the greens in HOTD it did seem that the bulk of hotd fandom was probably going to a similar if even more extreme form of what I encountered with targ-stan segments of the GOT fandom as a sansa-stan/jonsa shipper (ie. Less posts/fanfic that i would personally agree with or be interested in from these fans and potentially hostile and unpleasant responses or takes from the majority of these fans)

As a result of my general avoidance of hotd (i.e. the very pro targ/pro TB fanfiction that hotd fandom offered) Aemondsa, already an extremely rare pair and crack ship, wasn't even a pairing on my radar until one of the authors i was subscribed to started a hotd time travel fix it aemondsa fic...I have an appreciation for well written crack ships, and I am willing to give most pairings or fandoms a chance when I'm already a fan of either the story's main characters or of the author specifically ...but I was actually incredibly suprised how compeling Aemondsa was as a pairing in this story..as well as how much I enjoyed the other Aemondsa fics that I checked out afterwards..it seemed this was a niche segment of hotd fandom that i was going to absolutely obsessing over.

There was a lot of depth to them for a crack ship, which was achievable without altering their personalities and backstories very much from canon (dont get me wrong I love crack ships even ones where people and the plot are altered significantly to make a ship feel possible but there is something uniquely compelling when characters fit together without having to be too ooc) so I just wanted to write a bit about what is so fascinating about this ship since it's such a new rare pair that hasn't accumulated a massive audience or a ton of discussions or write ups yet.

PART 2/4. THE SURPRISING AMOUNT OF PARALLELS BETWEEN SANSA AND AEMOND (FANDOM, PLOT-WISE, but most of all regarding FAMILY)

(Uh ....Brace yourself? this section ended up way longer than expected)

For me the initial appeal comes down to intriguing Character parallels between Sansa and Aemond which fanfic at least offers the opportunity to explore in a story format ....

On a surface level they are (in the shows particularly) both intelligent and underdog figures with fantastic little sassy moments - true queens of dealing out backhanded and cutting compliments, or being unapolegetic critical towards some of the flawed and extremely privileged individual's they encounter who are used to receiving only coddling and fawning worship.

Both characters seem to get shit treatment, sometimes from the fandom other times due to the terrible choices/handling by the writers/showrunners.

Both were characters I personally found interesting and sympathetic despite how fandom- some of it for aemond and a significant amount of it for sansa- had deemed these essentially young and still innocent characters worthy of being reviled and harmed for the ways the adults in their lives had set them up for failure or abuse. Forever dismayed by the way they (unlike certain fan favorites) were somehow never deemed by fandom as deserving of sympathy for the horrible things that happened to them, and how notably they never recieve the same feverent forgiveness/understanding/support for their more dangerous or dark actions the way other characters did

Looking at the difference in fan responses to show!Arya or Dany compared to Sansa- though when it comes to the sheer amount of violence, destruction, and murder or the act of threatening their kin obviously despite what Sansa-antis say Sansa is the only one who should not even be part of the discussion, and how Dany or Arya always recieves excuses, sympathy, forgiveness, or outright praise from the core audience for their more questionable actions while somehow Sansa is deemed as the unforgivable, dangerous, evil, traitorous, and foolishly reckless character

How Aemond (and all of TG really) are set up and considered by TB stans to be unworthy of their house/rightful inheritance and the ones most at fault for the onset and destruction caused by a civil war... never victims mistreated or endangered by the more privileged and powerful members of their family... just the people who only ever deserved what was inflicted on them by TB for the crime of being forced to wed a disgusting and neglectful King or for being threats to Rhaenyra's family or throne simply by existing? How the morally questionable or violent actions of Rhaenyra, her sons, or more particularly her uncle-husband will always be seen as either justifiable, in the right, excusable, or literally worthy of praise the way Aemond's and his family's actions will never be viewed by this core audience

I think about how much like segments of asoiaf fandom bash Sansa by deeming her too southern/too Tully/Too Catelyn-like to be a real Stark (unlike her "truly northern" siblings) their are also segments of hotd fandom that have chosen to see Aemond and his full siblings as only Hightowers who are wrongfully stealing from TB/the "true Targaryens"

But there were even more striking parallels when it came to their characterization and plot.

Both younger (non heir) children, presented as being intelligent, incredibley dutiful and studious, with a very close relationship to their mother, in a sort of intense people pleaser manner - trying their best to excel at all the skills/duties that their parents/society deems necessary for their position and sex because that is the way they receive acceptance, attention, or praise from their family/the adults in their life

Aemond and his studies, his apparently dedication and success in training with the sword despite his own disability, his determination and recklessness to finally become a dragon rider like the rest of his Targaryen family- as it is what is expected and what he has long been mocked over by some of his targ kin, how despite his own ambitions and the way he thought himself particularly suitable for rulership he remained the dutiful and loyal younger brother who served as regent for his gravely injured older brother but did not attempt to stylize himself as King and steal Aegon's throne.

the way that Alicent seems to be the only family member he allows himself to be vulnerable with, the one with whom he turns to for consolation and comfort, Alicent being absolutely devastated and incensed over the loss of Aemond's eye and the lack of punishment for the assault on his person, the only one to demand recompense, the only one to raise a knife to the blacks when she is denied, how Aemond is the one person who tries to console his mother in the aftermath, how despite having just lost an eye he is the one who actually tries to sooth his mother to bring a stop to the increasing and dangerous level of tension and conflict that had erupted between the blacks and greens at driftmark, Aemond's own longstanding protectiveness of and devotion to his family- most especially his mother- that lasts until his own demise.

Sansa and the way she thrives and enjoys the type of world and training that is more of a noble woman's or specifically her mother Catelyn's domain- unlike her wilder other siblings she is generally a steadfastly proper and gentle girl- no doubt a comfort to her mother not just because she is generally so well behaved but in the fact that unlike her siblings she is not shown to be obviously or very publically close with Ned's illegitimate child- who for Catelyn would be the literal personification of Ned's infidelity, the disrespect and humiliation he puts her through by raising him in their house along side their children, and her deep seated fear that he loved and will prioritize another woman and her child more than his own wife and family.

Sansa is the child who seemed to love all things "southern" the most (though undeniably despite how Sansa is looked down upon for her love of romantic stories and song her other siblings also certainly enjoy legends and tales of Knighthood or Southern Princes and warrior Princesses) and to be fascinated by the environment her mother is from, the one who is drawn to and practice her mother's faith in addition to keeping to the old gods,

How Catelyn though she truly grieves letting her daughter go seems to accept it not just because her belief that Sansa would excel as a princess and future queen but because she thinks Sansa would thrive simply through getting to experience the south...Catelyn seems to grasp the things Sansa dreams about and unlike many other family members she does not view Sansa and her interests with the same condescension, dismissal, or disdain.

Catelyn loves all her children immensely but there is something so tragic and beautiful in her love for her daughters, the desperate lengths she is willing to go to to ensure the saftey of both of them while the lords/males in her family have already given them up as a lost cause and inevitable and necessary casualties in their war for vengeance and northern independence

Despite this affection though there is a lot of pressure on both of them... almost to the point that their treatment by the adults in their lives has a bit of a "parentification" dynamic- a manner that sometimes puts the onus on them to be a support and a comfort to their mother amid any tension in the family/marriage (Aemond) or to be the perfectly behaved role model or minder for their less dutiful siblings (Sansa)

Sansa, in everyone's eyes a lady at three and a queen destined to be, the determined effort she puts into excelling at being studious, accomplished, proper, and ladylike, how much she tries to exemplify the behavior praised and exemplified by her mother and her septa

set up by the adults in her life as a go between for the stark sisters...used as the benchmark for their demands and expectations of Arya, being held up as the bar for perfect, proper, and praise worthy behaviour that Arya is presssured to also attain, the daughter who gets censured on the few occasions she acts out while her younger sister typically gets away with her poor behaviour (at least when it comes to their parents)... Sansa isn't just under the pressure of the exacting expectations for a lord's daughter she also experiences the stress of being put in the position of exemplar for her wild untractable younger sister.

Aemond, apparent dutiful student in many areas expected as a child of nobility, who is expected to support Aegon in his rulership and war and (in the show) even takes responsibility for trying to keep his older brother in line, the one who after losing an eye takes the effort to comfort and console his mother's grief and rage when their father does nothing in response to an attack on Aemond other than threaten and intimate his wife and his children with Alicent in order to support his firstborn daughter, who becomes the human equivalent of not just a wrecking ball but a literal weapon of mass destruction sent out on behalf of the advancement of his family or later to enact terrible bloody vengeance on his family's behalf, his life his purpose and his death is all for his family's sake more than his own.

They put so much effort into being well behaved, to reach the exacting standards for a child in their position, setting an example for the less obedient/well behaved sibling(s) all of which in turn adds to significant strain or conflict between said sibling.

Sansa and Aemond are the sibling expected to and determidly striving to live up to the high expectations that the adults in their life put on them and to survive the extremely dangerous and high stakes scenarios they are put in (as a lord's daughter, prince's betrothed and future queen, a hostage and target for the machinations and ambitions of others, the older sibling, a ruling lady, and elected queen; a prince, dutiful son and brother, ruthless and dutiful defender of his family, and regent)

Meanwhile they have other siblings who struggled to meet said expectations or have given up attempting to all together (Arya, Rhaenyra, or to some degree Aegon)

Siblings who must from the perspective of Sansa and Aemond (who are still young, inexperienced, and have had a great deal of conflict with said siblings) seem to flaunt all expectations free to rebell, flaunt the rules, and generally ignore the high pressure expectations that children from their class face.

Undoubtedly frustrating since, much like their more rebellious siblings have failed to sympathize with the more responsible ones, Ameond and Sansa too have not (yet) been able to recognize the ways their less successful/dutiful siblings also suffer under the highly restrictive expectations of their class and position even if they do not choose or succeed in conforming to them.

They see that despite how they may excel in studying, striving and succeeding in their roles, and ultimatley exemplifying the high standards they were raised to it is these other siblings who seem to get rewarded (experiencing in their eyes at least what appears to be more freedom, less pressure, minimal censure or punishment for their misbehavior... while simultaneously receiving the bulk of the reward in terms of their inheritance, the attention they recieve, or even with regards to the amount of affection given by some of the authority figures in their lives, i.e. their fathers)...

To them it must seem that these siblings get to be not just easily forgiven for their mistakes and misbehaviour, but accepted as or outright adored simply the way they naturally are, whereas dutiful and non problematic children like themselves tend to be overlooked or underappreciated, and quickly criticized on the rare cases they misbehave... the acceptance and affection they recieve appears far more conditional on them behaving well according to the expectations of their family or various instructors/minders... whereas the affection their siblings receive, from say a certain parent, is show to be rather unconditional

Seriously they both give me such severe "easy" (i.e. overlooked) and "gifted" child trauma vibes... how much of their behavior is simply in their nature and how much is what they conform themselves to to make the adults around them proud... because as the quieter child or apparent outsider amindst their family/siblings this is the only action that comes natural to them and gets them some (hard earned) attention/praise in a rather large and loud family they otherwise seem a bit lost in... how much of their striving to succeed is dependent on the sincere belief/understanding that their saftey and potentially the future, saftey, and wellbeing of their family depends on it.

They both have a far more distant relationship with their fathers who favoured another sibling- a sister over them... father's who either didn't seem to know how to connect with them - Ned- or never really bothered to try- Viserys...

while i do believe Ned loves his children and they adored him in return i feel its obvious that he neglected in preparing any of them for the true dangers and realities of the world away from the satey and protection of winterfell and their Stark family, and he absolutely dropped the ball on keeping either of his daughters safe and supervised when he took them along into a very dangerous situation in kingslanding

Furthermore Ned never quite seemed to connected with or pay attention to Sansa they way he did with Arya... just something about the fact that when he follows the orders of his king/supposed best friend to kill Sansa's direwolf (the very symbol of their house) it is in replacement for Arya's Direwolf who was allowed to escape the cruel wrath of the Queen and Prince...and how he continues to fail Sansa in the aftermath

It's something about the gifts he gives his very angry and traumatized daughters to comfort them after- in lieu of truly trying to actually connect with and console both of them or to even properly mediate their increased fighting.

Arya (in the show and book) is given lessons with a "dancing" master who teaches her swordplay/water dancing, she was so excited and she always wanted to be outside learning to fight like her brothers got to, in this moment to her understanding she is not just seen by her father she is accepted and supported (a careful reader may see that Ned's attitude appears to be slightly condescendingly indulgent on the matter of her learning swordplay... but Arya gets the chance to do something she loves all the same)

Meanwhile (in the show) to try to console Sansa Ned gives her... a doll? (Honestly I can't recall any equivalent gift from Ned to Sansa in the books? the mention of her possibly getting harp lessons in Kingslanding was actually a promise Catelyn made to her on Ned's behalf rather than his own effort... and was something that Ned didn't actually ever arrange in the books)

But is this doll meant to be an appropriate gift to make up for the death of her direwolf? Is this gesture enough to comfort her and make amends after Ned killed her direwolf (notice its not exactly as spectacular, meaningful, or comforting a gift as arya's "dancing lessons"... certainly there is no indication that he has any particular understanding of Sansa or has given much thought into her talents, interests, or personality beyond the most shallow perusal)

In the aftermath of Lady's death Ned does nothing to truly protect Sansa or keep her away from the obviously dysfunctional and dangerous family he has promised her away to.

Yet he can take the time to comfort and have a frank conversation with Arya about how important staying together and supporting eachother as family is- especially when they are amongst dangerous people who mean to harm or separate them- and the specific importance her and Sansa will have to one another as sisters who share the same blood... further explaining how just as they will need eachother Ned needs them as well

Ned has no such comforting or distinctly meaningful exchange with Sansa... he doesn't explain the reality of the Lannisters/Joffrey/Robert (i.e. the truth of the people he has agreed to give his young daughter away to despite the fact that he either personally has no respect for most of them or has not been around them long enough to know anything about their true nature)

Yes it is the risk to his daughter that makes him willing to falsely confess to treason, yes eventually he decides its best to send his daughters back to winterfell, yes he finally wants to break the betrothal and he makes a beautiful promises to make her a match with "a high lord who's worthy of [her], someone brave and gentle and strong" ... but he is much too late to get both of his daughters away from the lannisters/kingslanding, way too late in his attempt to keep them safe, and he fails to handle Sansa with age appropriate respect and frankness and to actually tell her how dangerous things are in kingslanding and why joffrey (false prince -bastard born of incest) is such an ill suited match.

Maybe if he had put any effort into explaining things to her...or simply spending time with her, speaking to her, trying to understand her, comforting her amidst the loss of lady and the increased fighting with Arya, or doing literally anything other than just neglecting her and her saftey Sansa would have actually trusted his decision and seen it as him wanting what was best for her.

Maybe if he had been more proactive and focused on his daughters well being he wouldn't have brought both of them south after the altercation over their direwolves... or maybe he could have been successful at getting both his daughters out of kingslanding before everything went to hell.

Its almost like the whole point of the Ned/Arya/Sansa and the Ned/Cersei/Sansa dynamic isn't to show that Sansa is a naive girl who betrays her family for the lannisters but is instead to show that when you neglect your child emotionally they will turn elsewhere for comfort and will be particularly vulnerable to being manipulated or abused by other adults... its almost like this part of A Game of Thrones is more about the way even someone like Ned- a man who does strives to do what he thinks is right and a parent who does loves his children- can still fail.

Ned's treatment of Sansa is specifically intriguing, though i don't know if it will be addressed specifically since her relationship and dynamic with Ned is one that much like Robb ended with his tragic and unjust murder (leaving behind a grief stricken Sansa helplessly longing for the return of her family and home, grieving with a near devotional regard for her lost father and brother)... Sansa will never get to confront or reconcile with them over the many ways she was let down and left unprotected by her male relatives- and who knows if a traumatized and grieving Sansa will ever even recognize and admitt to herself the ways the people who she loved the most failed to live up to her expectations of them... how clearly that despite their love for her she was rarely their first priority ... how they both seemed to fail to follow their family mottos ... the lone wolf dies but the pack survives.... family before duty or honor... she was family yet duty and honor came before her in Robb's eyes... she was part of a pack but through Ned promising her to a marriage in the south, in him taking her and Arya away to kingslanding, in him failing to prioritize her saftey until they all were practically already on the chopping block, and in Robb abandoning any hope or plan of rescuing her she truly was abandoned by them ...to be a lone wolf without a pack to help her survive

Then there is Viserys who at the very least had a much stronger regard for Rhaenyra than all the kids by his second wife ...but can also quiet easily be accused of outright neglecting and mistreating them

The lack of guidance holds true for all his children really but with Rheanyra at least it is accompanied by an (ultimatley harmful) spoiled indulgence that he offers only to his eldest daughter- covering up her obvious blunders and threatening anyone who would speak the truth of her questionable actions and her children's legitimacy including his own wife and sons ... going against traditional succession not because he wants to promote first born succession/succession by "merit"/or treating daughter equal to sons in terms of inheritance or anything like that but because of guilt and unashamed favoritism.

Viserys refuses to give to his son what westeros society at least would deem as Aegon's birthright, while also failing to make arrangements for any his non-Rhaenyra children to have a future and saftey separate from the throne.

He doesn't arrange matches with other kingdoms and give them allies, protection, family, independence, or a power base independent of the crown/hightowers instead leaving them dependent only on the crown, vulnerable targets to be handled (i.e. no doubt killed on the orders of Rhaenyra and/or her uncle husband Daemon) as living they would remain the most significant threat to the legitimacy of their rulership.

Viserys looks the other way when Aemond specifically is permanently maimed by Rhaenyra's son...his only action after his son loses his eye is to threaten his second family, to intimidate them into staying quite on the topic of the legitimacy of Rhaenyra's children before he deems the matter concluded... as if the worst part of that altercation was Aemond calling them bastards rather than say four children ganging up against one and how one of these children attacked using a knife and cost the other their fucking eye?

That for Aemond more than anything must cement his understanding of his father's feelings about Aemond and his full siblings and mother. To Viserys they simply matter less than Rhaenyra and her children.

In fact their well being or saftey matters less than even an offense made to Rhaenyra's reputation... which shows Alicent and her children without question that they are in danger from the blacks and the King will do nothing to prevent the blacks from trying to severely physically harm Aemond or his siblings, and in fact that there will be no punishment for the blacks when they succeed in doing so.

A civil war between the blacks and the greens was inevitable... Viserys actions of protecting and favoring Rhaenyra while also not ensuring she is instructed on and practices/proves her ability to rule, willfully ignoring that she violates her own vows and that she passes off her obviously illegitimate children as trueborn heirs, of permitting her not just to inherit (and position her illegitimate son as the next heir to) what most considered the birthright of her brother but also for her to steal the birthright of her own cousins by supplanting them with her other bastard and demoting them to being simply their brides/consorts, him keeping her as heir not just after he has multiple trueborn sons but also after Rhaenyra gets remarried to the exact violent bloodthirsty man that so many feared and Viserys himself had previously removed as his own heir in favour for Rhaenyra.

Viserys doing all of this while still choosing to remarry and have MULTIPLE children with his new wife... the neglectful and disrespectful way he treats his second family... all of this ensured that the death of some (if not all) of his children, via either assassination or in outright civil war, would always have been inevitable.

There is so much hatred, fear, distrust, and tension between Viserys' family members... and not only did he fail to intervene or improve things he was the one most responsible for it ....so much of the environment Alicent lived in and Aemond and his full siblings were raised was permeated by not just a sense of deep injustice (particularly in Aemond's case with his treatment by not just the blacks but his own father) but also an undercurrent of desperate fear over what will happen to them and their family in the wake of a brewing succession crisis

The mommy, daddy, and sibling issues are so strong with these two and I'm so obsessed with how the complicated family dynamics and tragic family losses that Ameond and Sansa experience echoe one another in so many ways...there is just so much love, grief, rage, unpacked trauma, and hurt in them and I am always obsessed with stories that allow the narrative or characters to address such trauma.

PART 3/4. THE CONTRASTING AND COMPLIMEMTARY ASPECTS OF THEIR STORIES (SUFFERING AND GRIEF)

They were both were so young when they became targets of the wrath and dislike of powerful and corrupt "Queens"

Sansa who loses her direwolf at the demand of Queen Cersei, a queen who after long being abused by her own husband sees a perhaps more extreme form of that sort of violence in her own mad son being directed at Sansa, who rather than expressing or experiencing compassion or sympathy instead takes the chance to revel in the destruction of Sansa's innocence, to mock and emotionally abuse Sansa when she has lost her father and her only protection in Kingslanding, leaving her a hostage of war at the mercy of a violent and corrupt royal family

Aemond who after losing his eye to an attack instigated by Rhaenyra's children receives no apology or recompense...instead his own sister asks for her mutilated little brother to be tortured sharply questioned due to the offense he caused by accusing her sons -accurately mind you- of being bastards... Aemond and his siblings who were never truly ever treated by Rhaenyra as her siblings only ever the offspring of Alicent and thus obstacles and threats for her (and her uncle's) right to the throne.

Both were physically harmed or tormented by (or with the approval of) young members of royalty, with very little being done to intervene, stop, or punish those involved despite their own highborn status- which would generally deem them unacceptable targets for such abuse.

Young Sansa a hostage but still a high born daughter descended from two of the seven ruling houses in westeros, The Warden of the North and the Lord Paramount of the Trident, and niece/cousin to the rulers of a third kingdom, the Lord Paramount of the Vale. Who while under the "care" of the crown is tormented, stripped, and beaten in open court at the behest of a mad boy king... forced to look upon the severed heads of her father and household, forced into being an unwilling child bride to the house of her family's enemies, who is molested and threatened with sexual assault on multiple occasions

Prince Aemond son of the King who is mocked by his brother and nephews (or his king and father in the books) over the fact that he hasnt yet claimed a dragon, and when this makes him reckless enough to approach and claim the largest dragon in existence the torment doesn't stop it gets dangerously worse as the tension between the children of the blacks and greens escalate to the point of a violent confrontation between Aemond and his nephews and cousins... and the resulting loss of of his eye when one of his attackers brings out a knife. None of the children who banded together to attack Aemond would face any consequences, only Aemond himself and his mother and older brother would censure and outright threats from their King Father and Older sister. Whose earliest sexual experience- done at the behest of his older brother- was implied to be at the very least coerced, traumatizing, and humiliating- if not outright non consensual on his part.

Both Sansa and Aemond face a terrible sort of loss when they begin losing their family members to mass civil war ...often in a manner that is distinctly horrific or against all laws of decency in the 7 kingdoms

her father Ned unjustly executed for treason and whose decapitated head is displayed and used to torment her, her younger sister Arya gone missing for years and long thought dead, her home sacked and younger brothers Bran and Rickon supposedly murdered by her family's ward- a boy who grew up alongside the stark children- the burned/mutilated heads and bodies of two young boys being being put on display at winterfell, her older Brother and Mother slaughtered when their traitorous allies and bannermen men break sacred guest rights at a wedding, both their bodies desecrated in a mockery of their houses... Robb decapitated his direwolves own head placed ontop of his body while his enemies parade his remains around, her mother Catelyn's throat slit and her body dumped naked in a river and left to rot.

(In the show) Rickon being cut down before his siblings eyes by a madman who betrayed their house and had tortured Sansa herself, her "half brother" Jon betrayed and murdered by his men and later sent off into a lonley exile away from his family and home for the "crime" of taking out an invader who had just committed mass murder... Sansa being left to rule the north all alone with many of her family members long dead and the surviving ones being set on a path away from the north/winterfell while she is left to handle rulership in isolation

Aemond who after commiting the first Kinslaying of the "war of dragons" by attacking his own assailant and nephew Lucerys proceeds to lose all of the family that he loved.

Starting with the tragic murder of his innocent young nephew at the behest of his elder sister/uncle- who arranged for his mother Alicent to be attacked tied up and forced to bear witness to the gruesome murder of her grandchild,

His sister Helaena -who plead for her life to be taken to spare her son- forced under the threat of the rape of her young daughter to choose which of her young sons will be murdered. Only for all of them to be traumatize further when they kill Jaehaerys and leaving Maelor the son she "chose" to die to survive with the message that his own mother wanted him dead... the emotional torment this caused the whole family but most of all his sister who refused to eat, bathe, or look upon her remaining son due to her immense feelings of guilt

his older brother Aegon who has lost his son and heir, and whose sister/wife is in a grief so deep she cannot care for their remaining children, who is attacked and maimed but survives to live on in total agony,

the murder of Maelor, Aemond's remaining nephew at the hands of a mob

Aemond's last stand, sacrificing his dragon and his own life to take out his Uncle (the biggest threat to his family and the orchestrator of Jaehaerys' brutal murder)

The many tragedies that continued after Aemond's own death- his sister's eventual suicide, the death of his younger brother Daeron, his oldest brother outlasting all of his siblings and his own two sons only to be taken out by poison once the war is over, his mother spending the last of her years in confinement until she passes from sickness,

His niece Jaehaera, after the loss of her entire family, married off as a child in the name of "peace" and dying young and alone- of suicide or murder

There is just such fascinating potential when two characters would have so much mirroring grief and trauma ...there is such an undercurrent of helpess rage, guilt, and grief to them in their youth and a undoubtedly a feverent desire for either vengeance or justice against the many people who harmed them or slaughtered their family...

And here is where things begin to differ between the two in interesting ways

with Sansa who has these violent wishes/impulses but is not in a position to see them fulfilled herself- her desire to push Joffrey to his death even at the cost of her own life, her wish that someone will throw Ser Meryn Trant down and cut off his head, her hope that various people will fall/be unhorsed...

Sansa who recieves a direwolf, Lady, the very symbol of her house and potentially a companion that would have offered a connection that was an extension of her own soul only for Lady to be cut down so quickly and unjustly... Sansa who loses not just the connection/companionship she recieved from Lady but also the protection such a bond would offer her ... she is left vulnerable in so many ways and has no promise of reuniting with her own direwolf later on... that will never be a comfort or form of security offered to her after all the danger and trauma she experiences

While Aemond, who spent much of his young life similarly helpless to act or respond to insults and assaults on his own person or immediate family, (that his father/king either never deemed worthy of interference or punishment... that is when it wasn't the King himself who was the perpetrator of such offenses) unlike Sansa experiences a change of fortune in the form getting to bond with the symbol of his house

He gains (and gets to keep until his own death) a bond with a different sort of mythical beast companion... a dragon and as a result recieves all the potential for power and destruction that comes with being a dragon rider

By claiming Vhagar Ameond is the closest he will ever be to untouchable, not just from the harassment he personally experienced from his family but with regards to how grave and dangerous a threat/target he had now become for the blacks during the dance of dragons

Aemond now a dragonrider of the largest living dragon, a child and later teenager who is in control of the narrative equivalent of a weapon of mass destruction, and he is no longer held back from acting on his anger once the rule and interference of his neglectful father king is over,

he is in control of the most massive beast of pure destruction and unlike Sansa, who for now in the books- or for much of her story in the show- remained an unprotected hostage or pawn in the hands of those who mean to harm or use her... who handles her trauma very internally as she is not in a position to fight back, and must rely on her words, intelligence, and ability to read and strategically interact with people as a way of defending and keeping herself safe, Aemond is now in the position to enact every bloodthirsty impulse of revenge he ever experienced

He was held back from enacting vengeance only through his own will, which ultimately proves not enough- he commits the first kin slaying and soon the actions of each side escalated into a horrific bloodbath where nobility and small folk alike suffered or die en masse

While Aemond's story may be one of family devotion and loyalty, mistreatment, injustice, and suffering that ends by showing the terrible outcomes of revenge and uncontrolled cruel brutality Sansa's story feels like one where grief, rage, and mistreatment exist but where family, love, compassion, kindness, justice, and integrity will win out in the end.

Sansa was certainly developed into a more discerning strategic and ruthless figure in the show but justice, duty, and forgiveness were still very prevalent in her storyline

she does have ramsay killed in a fittingly horrific manner, but she later holds a public trial for littlefinger- who was responsible for much of her familys suffering, the death of her father, and her own torment and rape- before she has him executed,

She feels compassion and forgiveness for theon the man who had betrayed her family and drove her young brothers out of their home, who only after experiencing significant torture himself became devoted to protecting the remaining starks and was able to find the courage to disobey his own torturers in order to help Sansa escape,

She possessed a concern for other people that few ruler do in asoiaf/got... speaking up against Joffrey's cruelty even as a powerless hostage, being the person concerned with the more practical matters of caring for and feeding their people during a harsh winter- a notable development in comparison to say everyone else just focusing on battle tactics and the upcoming battles (as though feeding an army is not an essential part of warfare), and the invader who just burned westeros' food stores en masse and now expects others to feed not just her armies but also demands that her dragons be fed "whatever they want"

I think in the books however that despite Sansa's internal grief and rage and her burgeoning political acuity there will be a gentler end to her arc where her own innate sense of duty and her (now more discerning) sense of compassion will win out in the end when she takes back her name, identity, and birthright ... that she along with her surviving family will have justice administered in the name of their lost family and people... efficiently bringing down righteous and necessary judgement on those that harmed and betrayed them rather than simply dealing out some form of mass, bloody, cruel revenge on her enemies (I'll leave that for lady stoneheart) ... and that a satisfying ending for her and the other starks will balance them realistically addressing the dangers and betrayal they faced with their own personal resolve to hold true to the values imparted to them by their parents.

... yet after all her suffering (and the frustrating lack of trust, consideration, or support she was given by her own family in the later GOT seasons) there is something darkly appealing to the idea of her getting (not a hero precisely) but a ruthless and devoted sort of monster to support her and bring down unholy vengeance on her various tormentors

PART 4/4: THE RESULTING DRAMATIC AND EMOTIONAL APPEAL OF AEMONDSA FICS

This after their many parallels and complementary contrasts is what intrigues me the most...the interplay of a potentially wary, cautious, traumatized but still duty and justice oriented person and a companion or lover who is comparatively more ruthless, unhinged, capable of atrocities, and who is more equipped to dole out violence en masse... (guys the pipeline from dark jon/dark jonsa to aemondsa just makes so much sense)

the question in Aemondsa fics of what will win out in the end- the shared grief and rage or them both controlling/channeling such impulses into strategic righteous fury and justice is always fascinating... and most of all the idea of Sansa (after all the trauma mistreatment and grief she has experienced) attaining the interest and eventual devotion of someone who despite being capable of monstrous actions is also incredibly loyal, devoted, and ruthless in the pursuit of their loved ones interests ("I want you to put out your eye ... plan to make it a gift if it to my mother" indeed) is just as appealing as the idea where an isolated, lonely, traumatized, grieving, and dangerously angry young man like Aemond gets to find acceptance, affection, companionship, and belonging with an intelligent strategic but more importantly an exceptionally compassionate person like Sansa.

Its just a dynamic far too intriguing to ignore especially for someome who already loved Time Travel/Reincarnation Fix IT AUs in fanfiction

While emotional catharsis and Sansa returning home and having the dreams she had wrote off as impossible be fulfilled (i.e. building a loving partnership and marriage, having children with someone who loves and wants her more than her claim itself, reuniting with her family) is something I love- and what I want to happen in canon (hence my otp being Jonsa)- there is always an interesting/guilty pleasure aspect of fanfic where Sansa (or the Starks in general) get to wreck terrible bloody victory and vengeance on those who betrayed and butchered their family and people (not really the ultimate message or point of the book but definitely emotionally satisfying in fanfic)

Just like there is a sort of appeal that exists in hotd fanfic that is sort of the opposite ...ones that alter the violent senseless and tragic trajectory of the dance of dragons... to either change the course of a brutal civil war or prevent it all together

and the Aemondsa pairing's time travel or reincarnation fics provide an opportunity to explore both of these diverse dynamics.

Sansa will always deserve the world... in canon and in fanfic i want to see all her dream and hopes come true whether it is with a truly good and just partner with whom she gets to build the life and home she always dreamed of or through her getting her very own devoted monster who would do anything to keep her safe from the scores of people who wish to misuse or harm her

and I always wish that hotd fanfiction offered more Aemond centric fics with a love interest that you know actually likes, sympathizes with, or understand him? He feels too tragic a character for me to want him to experience the typical hate and love (enemies AND lovers) treatment he tends to get in fanfic... its not really satisfying for me seeing his typical pairing up with whatever team black character (or really TB character rewrite) or some Daemon's or Rhaenyra's daughter OC that is the frequent choice for aemond centric fics...him being portrayed as some impusive awful and villainous love interest who changes sides and abandons his family just to be with his lover/obsession feels so out of character in a way that erases the best, most compelling, and sympathetic parts of his canon personality, motives, and actions.

Luckily Aemondsa fics seems to be a pairing that offers everything I like in Ameond or Sansa centric fics....

In conclusion Aemondsa is surprisingly compelling and versatile dynamic in fanfic and I think that is why I've become such a fan of Firesteel/Aemondsa fanfiction (in a way I'm NOT at all a fan of the actual HOTD show writing lol)

I'm a proud support of crack ships/rarepairs and I'm always willing to add to the fandom appreciation of pairings that gets less attention or fandom related works... so expect to see the occasional Aemondsa fanart/fic recommendation post from me amongst my typical jonsa content (in fact expect one in the next in a day or so)

Otherwise I just hope established Ameondsa fans (or people who haven't ready any aemondsa fics but are fans of either character/curious about this pairing in general) have enjoyed seeing me fangirl about these two characters/this crack ship and feel inspired to check out or even make their own Aemondsa content!

-Crimsom Cold

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punkeropercyjackson · 1 month ago

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I've never liked 'positively masculine' 'slutty bisexual' Percy because Percy's always been so transfem-coded and that interpretation strips her of it pretty much entierly

She defies traditional manhood as an overarching trait of hers as proof she's the best greek hero ever and it's a direct plot point in the book where she enters puberty,by proving herself as completely unlike cis men to an archaic group of lesbians that're a group set to protect young girls against older men and Percy falls under a victim of them like them since literally every older man in her life except Beckendorf abused her and Percy's potrayed as and written as not a normal cis man throught not only in The Titan's Curse but in the entire saga as a whole.Her gender presentation is neutral and her boldness,emotional strength,snark,respect for women with her mama most of all and nurturing protector tendencies aren't masculine and only thought of as such due to sexism and she insults men for being overly masculine,particularly older men thanks to her trauma,and is enchanted by and loves women for being feminine and is also enchanted by girlhood as a whole and was jealous of Thalia for her specific girlhood in TTC because she wanted to be seen as and treated the same as her and they're depicted as two sides of the same coin who clash but learn to understand eachother and become basically siblings/sisters and Thalia is punk,a historically inherently transgender subculture,and Percy is too but she dosen't have the aesthetic and it only adds to her (gender) envy and the kicker is Thalia is a dead ringer for irl punk/alt transbians

Percy's lack of masculinity is also commented on/confirmed by two canonical queer characters-Piper,a sapphic butch who described Percy as 'unimpressive' in terms of mascness and brought us accidental meta commentary with her remark that everybody at Camp Half-Blood percieved Percy as a lot manlier than she actually is,and Nico,a gay boy Percy met in the egg metaphor Pjo book that developed a crush on her out of idealizing her as an ideallic she isn't nor wants to be and the crush in question is textually the one thing stopping them from having the familial best friendship they desperately crave with eachother as it ruins their dynamic and he eventually stopped and looked at her for who she actually is and realized she's 'cute but not his type' and only then were they Nico and Percy,the og dead sea siblings,again and she even compared her treatment of him to acting like a mother/acting like how her own acts with her and similar to Thalia,Nico is basically every disabled goth/alt trans teenage boy ever and every single female character who's had a crush on Percy is wlw-coded(Annabeth's gncness and resistence against traditional femininity and chemistry with Piper,Clarisse and Reyna/Rachel's pretty much the 'activist art school lesbian' stereotype but that's a good thing because it's a lesbian inside joke and not a derogatory one/Calypso and Reyna's romance storylines are near textually comphet)

Percy looks exactly like her dad,Poseidon,the god of the sea,a element that holds such endless femininity to it that much like Percy herself,as the sea herself personified,is mistaken for masculinity,which is such a common eldest daughter thing and she's tall and has a big strong build and she's insecure over her looks and thinks she's not attractive enough,especially compared to others,and Circe,a trickster goddess,showed her a masculinized version of herself as her supposed ideal apperance and this is never brought up beforehand and in the very next book,the transfem Pjo book™️,Aphrodite,an actual beauty and love goddess,tells Percy she needs to stop trying to be something she's not to achive her true beauty and 'The sea does not like to be restrained' is about multiple things-Percy's oceanic heritage,Percy's anarchism,Percy's autism she dosen't know how to mask,Percy's transfeminism.Her autism/audhd reflects heavily to the common overlap between autistic women and transgender women and so does her being punk as i stated before,completed with her own unnatural colored hair streak she didn't even need to dye in and growing up almost all her friends were girls except for a gay boy and effeminate boy that got picked on for being wimpy she stood up for and she's got a special interest in the color blue,a 'boy' color usually but her love of it comes from her mom and she's scared of becoming exactly like her dad but she's more of a mix of both her parents and she loves burgers and is a horse girl and inclined to kiddy things over 'mature interests' and her default outfit is baggy pants and dysphoria hoodies and converse and she's so much like me as a black woman that i can't help but see her as that too(though i'm tmasc and she's tfem)

It's not that i'm against bi Percy or playing around with her gender presentation,it's just that Percy feels like Percy and not a completely different person when she's transfem and i love the idea of her as a bi femme instead.As somebody with a lot of tgirl friends and a trans girlfriend who used to be my best friend,the characterization and story writings surrounding fanonized bi Percy play into multiple fascests of irl transmisogynistic rethoric and it happens so often it's extremely suspicious wether it's even accidental,especially with the self-proclaimed 'queer elders' of the Pjo fandom being the biggest posters of it and the unjustified entitlement they feel to Percy crushing on their male faves who're literally her abusers.Percy deserves so much better than to be reduced down to that when she's such a good and one of a kind character and transfem Pjo fans deserve someone like her as representation too,not to be disregarded when she's so perfect for them and they've earned her after all the awful caricatures of them they've been forced to put up with.Girl(🏳️‍⚧️)Percy Jackson is just canon Percy Jackson,i've known that since i was TLT age

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penultimate-step · 10 months ago

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Love, Lies, and Romance: The 3 Ships of Oshi no Ko and 3 Thematic Resolutions

Oshi no Ko is a series deeply concerned with what it means to love and be loved. Ai's wish to love is what starts off the series; her love for her children, and their love for her in return, form the emotional fulcrum upon which the whole manga turns.

Romantic love, too, is a type of love. Aqua's three possible romantic relationships each represent three different interpretations of how to love, and how those relationships are treated is a reflection of how the series views those kinds of love.

For organization's sake, I'll go down the list in order of what I judge as least to most likely to occur in the manga itself.

Ruby - Love is Lies

I've already written a longer meta about this, but to summarize the relevant parts: Ruby, as depicted in chapters 77 to 142, doesn't understand Aqua, nor Gorou. She instead loves him for the image she's constructed of him in her head, for the way he makes her feel - but this has very little to do with the man himself. Her view on Aqua is, in my opinion, a direct parallel to Aqua's view of Ai - she puts him on a pedestal, idolizes him, but that same impetus is what has her mentally keeping a distance from his real self. You can see this all the way back in chapter 77. When she thinks of him, she first thinks of how he made her feel:

Now, this isn't on it's own a red flag, but it is contrasted directly afterward: when asked to predict his own actions and feelings, she's hilariously off:

I think many readers kind of wrote this off as a joke at the time, but this kind of thing lines up perfectly with her behavior in the movie arc. Not only is she inventing a backstory for him (does Gorou ever show romantic interest at all? Why would she assume he was in trouble with girls?) but more importantly she interprets his kind rejection as a tease, and his care to a friend and patient as romantic intent.

A version of the story in which Ruby is Aqua's love interest would literally validate Ai's famous quote, that lies are love - that the person doesn't matter, only how they make them feel does. And that is directly contrasted by, uh. The whole rest of the manga. But to pick a specific scene, see C9:

The kind of love where one person projects on another, the manga has shown us again and again, the kind of love that is lies, results in this. It cannot end happily, for anybody. If Ruby and Aqua end up dating for real, my next bet is that the story ends in tragedy, because that's the only end for that kind of love in Oshi no Ko.

Akane - Love is Lying

To Akane, love is an act - a lie. But hear me out, this is markedly different from Ruby's position. Akane, I think, is actually the closest of the main characters to Ai's mindset. She doesn't feel that she understands love, but she wants it, so she actively cultivates an image of herself that can show love. We know this well, of course, given her actions at the end of LoveNow. She creates a persona of love in chapter 28, much like Ai describes in 4.

And believes that regardless of the artificiality of it, she can keep up the act forever: to earn love through the act is to earn it in reality.

So you may be asking: what is the difference between what Akane is doing, and what Ruby is doing? Well, the difference is in the intention. It is not the lies that are the important part, but the lying - neither Akane nor Ai felt they knew how to love, but their desire to love, their care for others, that was all real love. The performance they put on for others was not an impersonal pedestal, but an active effort done for another's sake. It may be lying, but it is an act of love nonetheless.

If Aqua/Akane was the endgame ship of Oshi no Ko, it would be a simultaneous validation and rejection of Ai's worldview. Yes, if you care enough, lying can be love, if you are willing to forge that connection. But, in this paradigm, Ai's mistake was lying one-sidedly, to a faceless crowd. The crowd cannot return your love, not in a way other than idolization, and we discussed how that turns out in Ruby's entry. Akane's relationship, on the other hand, is much less one-sided and unhealthy, because she lies for Aqua's sake alone, and doesn't hide that she's doing it. As such, her performance can be recognized and appreciated as such, and he can reach back and return her love.

As such, while the lying is a performance, their relationship isn't a lie. The two of them start to see each other's real selves. The dynamic of two people who don't really understand love or how to love, performing a relationship together until they can learn how to do it together, is a sweet one. I could actually totally see this as the main relationship of Oshi no Ko.

But the actions of the characters make clear what the issue is in this kind of love. The seeds of this breakdown are set in chapter 72, which is ironically one of the ones that sets the dynamic up - even as they are trying to create an equal relationship, Akane decides to lie to him for his own good. After all, their relationship has already been established on the basis of lies. To lie for someone else's sake is inherently a one sided choice, and while in chapter 28 we can see it as a cute start to a relationship, it comes back around in a much more harmful way here:

which pays off in their grand breakup in chapter 98. Akane is willing to one-sidedly make the choice to kill Hikaru for Aqua's sake. Aqua, in return, refuses to let her make that choice, tracking her position, then stopping her and cutting her off for her own safety. While Akane is the one who calls him out for this, neither of them are treating the other as someone with agency, and both are making choices for the other. As such, in Oshi no Ko, lying cannot be love - you cannot impose your love on another.

Kana - Love is Sincerity

Kana, differently than Ruby and Akane, is defined in her moments of honesty and sincerity. She is an actress, yes, but even her acting is a kind that emphasizes her true self. There's too many pages to post here, but chapters 60-63 talk all about this directly - her modern acting is about hiding herself in order to aid others, but her best acting is when she ignores everybody else and acts to her heart's desire.

This same sincerity is what forms the basis of the Aqua/Kana ship. Unlike the two above ships, which are on some level founded on artifice, many of the moments between Kana and Aqua are focused on moments where they are each acting as their truest selves. Chapters where they interact, like 30 and 117, show that they both have an easy rapport, acting thoughtlessly and honestly. Chapter 40 points this out directly: Kana has the ability to draw Aqua out of his depressed and overthinking mindset, letting him be his unrestrained self.

This is similar to Ai's own actions in chapter 4. Though she normally puts on a facade and acts out love for the cameras and crowds, the one moment that she is truly recognized as smiling is the moment she accidentally lets slip, and shows true love for her children:

As such, Aqua/Kana serves as a complete repudiation of Ai's mindset. She was wrong that one can lie to love. The only way to love is to be honest, the only time she was able to honestly express love was the moment she died, when she was able to tell her children she loved them. If you aren't sure how to love, you must reach out honestly and you will find it. No act or performance can be love, no matter how well meant.

If this is the ship the manga ends on, which it could be, the message would be that love is in baring oneself to others. Hiding from others with lies, even when well intentioned, like Aqua does to Kana before chapter 107, is a mistake, and to love truly you need to face up to your own feelings and see the other person directly.

Finale

So, what does this all mean? It means that the romantic love demonstrated in the three ships are unavoidably intertwined with the story's ideas about love as a whole. However, his isn't necessarily a foolproof prediction of what the author plans to do next, or what ship the story endorses. Though obviously I think some of these are much more supported by the series than others, until we reach the end it is still possible that things will change, and it could go with any of these, or none of them. This is merely the lens in which I interpret the romantic interactions in the text.

In fact, it's entirely possible that the series ends with no romantic resolution at all, rejecting all three above views on love. After all, while the romantic relationships are undeniably important to the narrative, the love that started this whole story was Ai's familial love for her children - thus, I wouldn't be surprised if platonic love between family and friends will be the most important in resolving it. In any case, the question of how to love is a key part of the series, and will have to be resolved by the story's end.

#oshi no ko #ruby hoshino #akane kurokawa #kana arima #ai hoshino #aqua hoshino #step.animanga #step.blogger

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theultimatekamehamehavoc · 24 days ago

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Finished Chapter 2! SPOILERS AHEAD! I must say that this chapter oddly made me dislike Makoto a bit. I genuinely thought I'd potentially dislike Byakuya in some ways more, perhaps feel a bit more upset at him than I do. On the contrary though, Makoto sucks in some ways. Which, don't get me wrong. Makoto deserves to be a flawed individual!! Golly though. For one, he really is a normie in some ways with how little he knows. How he asks so many unneeded questions, specifically when he was being dragged around by Byakuya which I get to some extent. He was very much disoriented from the whole ordeal, struggling to figure out why Byakuya of all people was interested in him specifically in regards of sleuthing about for the investigation. At the same time though, he needs to quit it with the rhetorical reciting questions that almost parrot what the other person just said. I get it's probably a bad habit of his but he need to get a grip about it. I can only extent sympathy for so long. Being a bit intentionally dramatic here by the way, but it sometimes feels like a tension killer or that it makes Makoto look a bit too dense. Don't get me started on the whole "rope" debacle too. Like, UUUUUGH! It's so obviously the extension cord Byakuya used in the library! So very obvious! Like, Byakuya took his time to bring Makoto to the library and I get Byakuya was being stubborn and not letting Makoto look at anything other than what he wanted him to look at. But it's so OBVIOUS!!! Though, I suppose I can blame a bit of this on the game design to some extent. Certainly doesn't make Makoto look smarter by any means. Maybe it's that denial where I can see Makoto's smarts shine in the trials so I feel like I'm internally being a bit harsh on him. I've seen others call him dense after all and I DO wanna look at Makoto in a positive light. I don't wanna be hating on the little bastard after all. It does get on my nerves sometimes though. and I can't lie to myself about that. Furthermore, the fact that I had to progress the trial by Hangman's Gambit-ing a slur for schizophrenic people regarding Genocide Jack. On a meta level, I get that doing D.I.D is a bit short and the full term is probably too long to do for just the second dang trial. Definitely not an excuse to use a slur that has no means being here though. Also though, in an in-world explanation, damnit, Makoto. You sure do have some shit you gotta sort out if that's what you're internally describing Jack as who, by the way, does not have schizophrenia. D.I.D and schizophrenia are very much not the same disorder. You called D.I.D a split personality multiple times which shows you know the difference. And, I can get it to some extent that, yes. This game is from the 2000s. The 2000s was definitely a more ableist time where terminology like that was flung around like it was nothing. So, in a sense of historical accuracy, I can understand why he might have said this word. I must also mention though that this isn't the first time Makoto was unnecessarily cruel to the others internally in his head. Thus, this certainly feels a bit more like a pattern of behavior for him. This is all interesting to me though with how much I've seen this side of Makoto ignored in some ways. He's surprisingly more judgmental than I feel some give him credit for. From internally thinking Taka was annoying when he first met him to finding Hifumi weird for his interests in Hifumi's own Free-time events (which I get. Hifumi isn't exactly written in the nicest light. Don't blame him for that. I blame the dated writing). I find this aspect of Makoto so intriguing though. In a way, Byakuya, the asshole of the group who dislikes everyone and mentions multiple times how he plans on following through with a murder, is less judgmental than Makoto. He said himself not to judge others by your own standards before the murder, during the investigation, and after the trial like he was the narrator of a children's book giving the moral of the story.

Fascinating...

#danganronpa #danganronpa trigger happy havoc #trigger happy havoc #danganronpa makoto #makoto naegi #danganronpa byakuya #byakuya togami #danganronpa spoilers #dr spoilers #thh spoilers #spoiler warning #lowkey would have gone and screenshotted the whole “makoto naegi makes me write a slur in a minigame” moment btw #i was in such shock though and it was only near the end of the gameplay i started screenshotting so my bad on that!#and don't worry. i WILL have a dedicated post (or two) about byakuya in this chapter to some extent. how can i not hahah!#pardon the image quality btw. no professional here unfortunately and my phone quality can be a mixed bag #like i love my boy byakuya but i can in no good consious just leave him off the hook. he did a bad thing. no regret in what he did either #no wondering what he did. and i must ramble on what he did. cus it was a bad thing. and i totally am not referencing anything #nor did i try my best to use specific wording in regards to byakuya's bad thing in chapter 2 of the game... totally #havoc rambles #text sector

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brujahinaskirt · 2 years ago

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Just some lil' thangs you might not notice about the level of detail RDR2 puts into Arthur's interactions with horses if you aren't personally experienced with horses:

[Sorry if this has been done! I couldn't find a post like it in recent tumblr history, and hope I can at least add some thoughts that haven't been analyzed to death already!]

(First, a note about me: I was raised on a quarter horse ranch and trained by a cadre of old-school cowboys in the Western tradition. Some of them were excellent teachers and some of them were crabby-faced bastards who thought "horsemanship" = engaging in a constant war with your horse... which gives me a little insight into positive and negative horsemanship styles on display in RDR2.)

(Second, thanks to fellow horsegirl @mangocats for helping me compile this list!)

(Third, a simple note to say that although I playfully use the term "horsegirl" in this post, the notes here apply to any gender. Same goes for the use of terms like "horsemen," which is not commonly used in the Western equestrian world to indicate a rider's real gender.)

Now, without further ado:

Press X to Calm. Arthur uses a tried-and-true low-stress, gradual escalation method of approaching and calming a spooked horse that begins with establishing physical contact with one hand and slowly increasing contact until the horse is fully calm and is once more amenable to human direction & commands. This is usually a preferable method to getting a frightened horse under control imo, but it's a "soft hand" method, and not something you always see in machismo-loaded equestrian circles. I've written about this a little in another meta post, so I won't get too deeply into it here.

Overall Horsemanship Style. You'll notice that while he does occasionally drive them hard in emergencies such as escaping the law or chasing a train, Arthur never "forces" his horses to comply with commands; in other words, he doesn't use his strength to try and bully a horse into doing something, like crossing a river, or physically punish a horse to "desensitize" it. "Forcing" horses to do things using tack designed to create discomfort or using raw bodily intimidation + fear & pain-motivated negative reinforcement is a tragically common tradition in old-school Western riding (and still advocated by some popular TV equestrians whom I think are straight-up animal abusers... if you know you know). It's dismal, but for a lot of the cowboys I know/knew, when a horse isn't obeying, you need to "show it who's boss." Arthur never approaches animals this way. By contrast, especially for the time period, he is exceedingly patient with horses and animals in general. We can even see this in his dialogue to wild horses; when they gradually calm down after the initial "breaking in" process, Arthur usually says something companionable like, "See, we're friends now."

And a sub-point on that: Horsemanship Temperament. Arthur never gets mad at or yells at his horse. Even when he gets chucked to the ground, he'll yell DAMN, THAT HURT, and then it's back to trying to calm the spooked horse. Which is exactly the right attitude to have. (Though if you've never been hurled face-first into a pile of sun-baked manure because your horse saw, idk, a twig on the road, you might not appreciate how even-tempered a character Arthur is for never succumbing to the temptation to yell, "COME ONNNN GIVE ME A BREAK IT'S A STICK YOU SILLY BITCH!")

Horse responsiveness. The horse emotional cues in this game are incredible, from their reactions to other animals and weather events to their reactions to Arthur. You can see the horse's neck muscles tense and relax when being calmed, their eyes changing in size, their head drop and raise in response to the reins, and their annoyance seeping through with stomps and pinned ears well before they start to spook. When Arthur speaks to his horses, you can even see a subtle ear flick backwards as they listen to him. When he gives certain commands (such as a mild squeeze of the knees to speed up a bit), a calm and attentive horse will often issue an affirmative snort; this is incredibly lifelike and essentially a "roger roger" between horse and rider. I was also impressed that Arthur uses his thighs and his knees to cue his horse more than his heels. Usually you just see the dramatic heel cues in in video games, but in real life, a rider gently but firmly squeezes their knees/thighs far more often than laying into their horse with boot heels, which is a fabulous way to get sent to the moon. One thing I would have liked to see is more riderless idle horse animations. Lazy or bored horses do a very classic pose where they rest their weight on one side, cock a hip out, and jauntily kick a back hoof up. It would have been right at home at the hitching posts in RDR2, and the horses are otherwise so lifelike, I find myself missing this little pose.

Historical bits. As players, we don't have much choice with this, since Rockstar matched bits to saddles rather than letting us customize them. With that disclaimer out of the way: Arthur uses a wide range of bits, some of them much harsher than others, designed to offer more control over a difficult horse's head through pressure points within the mouth. This is historically sound and far from obsolete in modern horsemanship, though I would certainly avoid using some of the harsher bits in RDR2 on my horses to avoid hurting them accidentally. That said, it's important to note that "harsh" control bits (like those wickedly straight-shanked bits you see with some of the cooler saddle styles) aren't instantly or automatically painful. While many of us modern horsegirls may frown upon the just-for-the-hell-of-it use of many styles of old-school, Wild West bit, in the hands of an experienced horseman with a good sense of appropriate rein pressure (which we can assume Arthur is), even a curb bit should not be a tool of pain. In the hands of a novice, however, some of those bits would absolutely hurt a poor horse's mouth and are typically reserved for troublesome (potentially dangerous) animals who may need to be curtailed quickly. I'm assuming Rockstar chose them for style more than characterization... but I do wince when I see those hard stops with the straight shanks, every time.

Horsetalk. We all know Arthur baby talks horses, and that his babble to his horse increases in affection with bonding level and varies a little depending on the horse's sex. But he also does something peculiar and frankly delightful with his vocal modulation on certain horse chatter lines. In those moments where he seems to go a little vibrato, warbling his voice as he talks ("waiaiaiaiaiaiaiat! come bahahahahack!" he calls after a fleeing mustang), Arthur is actually mimicking calming/positive horse sounds (usually a friendly nicker or a greeting whinny) in an attempt to communicate in horse language. While I think a TON of horsegirls have secretly nickered at our horses when no one else is around the stable, making horse noises at your horse is not a "traditional" training technique, and imo is something other gang members would definitely make fun of him for. It is also very adorable. I wanted to add that while horses are excellent at noise commands (like whistles, clucks, kisses, etc.), they usually aren't very good at identifying spoken word commands, including their own names. Therefore, the majority of the talking Arthur does to his horse is just free companionable chatter, much like we babble to our house pets. The command is in the cluck, the leg pressure, the yah, the rein slap; it's not the spoken, "Come on, girl, here we go!" That's just Arthur being a horsegirl.

Saddle checks. If you pay close attention, in cutscenes and in the map, Arthur will occasionally reach down and test various pieces of his saddle. This is particularly true with checking the cinches (those big straps that loop behind the front legs and under the belly), which good riders often do, as saddles can adjust during a ride. Straps that are too tight or too loose will cause a horse discomfort, since they change the way the saddle rests upon them and distributes the rider's weight. You can even watch the saddle shift when Arthur mounts and dismounts, reflecting the changed distribution in weight! This honestly floored me the first time I saw it. Rockstar really consulted people who know their stuff.

Bad Habits. IMO, Arthur's a little slouch-backed in the saddle. This is noticeably worse if he's hungry or sleepy, but even well-fed and rested, his shoulders drop and curve out his spine more than is ideal. This won't hurt his horse, but it will come back to bite him directly in the lower back as he ages, and I argue it's probably biting him in the ass a little now. (More on that below.) Arthur's "behind the horse" etiquette isn't particularly lifelike. In RDR2 (as in life), sometimes idling or benignly messing around behind a horse will cause them to randomly kick, and any equestrian knows not to hang out aimlessly in the kick zone. IRL, if you're about to walk close behind a horse, it's good etiquette to reach out and gently lay a hand on a horse's hip to let them know you're going to pass behind them before you step into the kick zone. I would have liked to see an animation for this, but I'd guess this would have been a real pain to animate without "locking" Arthur in place (as with the petting and brushing animations), so I can't really count this against him in good conscience. He also holds his reins in a full fist rather than between the appropriate fingers. This is a novice mistake, but I'm guessing this is an animation choice more than a characterization one, because I can't imagine getting those wobbly rein physics to rest perfectly between a model's wee little fingers. Which brings us to...

Reins. Arthur keeps a pretty tight (though not oppressive) grip on the reins when he has a horse in motion, facilitating quick communication from rider to horse and increased emotional response from the horse, and he tends to use both reins when he isn't holding something else. This increases control and often allows for clearer communication between horse and rider in comparison to the laxer "rein knot" one-handed Western style. More on that point: Arthur sometimes holds the reins in one hand. This is not lazy horsemanship, but rather a mainstay of the Western riding tradition; holding the reins in one hand allows for a rider to keep one hand free for whatever they might need... usually rope/weapons. Using two hands, one rein in each, does deliver much more refined control (especially with a nervous or inexperienced horse), which is why you often see Arthur switch between one- and two-handed riding. Rockstar also makes the clever choice to make reins “stretchy” so they move with the neck and simulate rider give and restraint, rather than having them just flop around at a static length. This makes reining feel a lot more dynamic and responsive, in my opinion.

Bareback vs. Saddle: To Rockstar's credit, riders' carriage when bareback is entirely different from the saddle carriage animations, and displays a lower center of gravity.

This note is a bummer, but it is, I feel, an important one to know. Arthur is WAY TOO BIG to ride a significant number of horses in the game. Horses are not bikes or cars. In real life, it's extremely important to consider a rider's weight and height and general carriage when matching them with a horse, especially for long-distance rides... and unfortunately, Arthur is prohibitively huge. If I saw a man Arthur's size astride that teeny little Morgan, boots tips damn near dragging, I'd give him a piece of my damn mind. That said, it's just a video game, so if you love that white Arabian or that sweet little Morgan, ride without shame; you are not hurting a pixel horse! But if you're into max realism or a horse an experienced rider like Arthur might conceivably choose for himself, go for something larger, leggier, and stronger. Though Rockstar fictionalized their breeds a little bit, I think one of their taller well-balanced styles like the Dutch warmblood, standardbred, Hungarian, Andalusian, or even one of those svelte Americanized Belgians suits Arthur much more comfortably. Online's Kladruber would also be an excellent choice for Arthur. (Ain't nobody saying SHIT to Arthur Morgan on a heavy breed like a Shire, though they aren't well suited for everyday long-distance all-terrain riding, and I feel sympathy pains about that leg spread just thinking about it. Speaking of...)

Real talk about Arthur's "swagger": Though I'm 100% sure it's a dominance thing for some crusty ol' cowboys, most equestrians don't saunter around Like That TM because they are listening to Rod Stewart croon If You Want My Body And You Think I'm Sexy at all times. That "swagger" is just... well... to be blunt, it's sort of what happens to your gait after you spend all day with your legs straddling a big animal moving on rough terrain. Hang out with some adults who have ridden horses daily since they were wee beans and they'll tell you allllll about what it can do to your posture. Contrary to cowboy jokes, it's not so much about being bowlegged (which is massively exaggerated as it pertains to horseback riding) as it is about lowering one's center of gravity to compensate for things like muscle strain, spinal compression, and lower back pain. Due to the high impact nature of riding, many career horsepeople develop chronic back problems and "swaggers," and for some it's eventually more comfortable to ride than to walk. Not saying you can't hc an Arthur who struts his stuff, of course! Just saying that, for those of you who might struggle to reconcile Arthur's blisteringly low self-esteem in his physical appearance with his "swagger," here's a horse world answer.

Knights Templar'ing it. This is another bummer for a ton of cute fanfic scenes, but riding two-to-a saddle is really not good for a horse. It's not just about raw weight, but about the distribution of that weight and where the pressure rests on a horse's back/organs. A bean like Little Jack sitting right in Arthur's lap isn't going to add too much stress to a horse big enough to carry a tanky dude like Arthur comfortably, but a whole second adult sitting behind a saddle is a very different story. Imagine the difference between carrying someone piggyback versus having someone stand on your spine! It's all about the position. Larger breeds can tolerate riding double for a while, but it should not be done for long distances, and it definitely should not be done if a rider expects to need heavy exertion from the horse. Adults riding double doesn't happen too often in RDR2 (usually just during an emergency), so this isn't a critique of Rockstar or Arthur; it's more so a helpful realism note for fanworks. An experienced horsegirl like Arthur is sure not to ride double casually. Pro-tip: If you want someone to teach your (non-bean-sized) OC how to ride a horse, consider having the teacher controlling the horse from the ground via a lead/lunge line while your OC sits in the saddle.

Oof, that smarts... When Arthur picks up hay bales with short sleeves on/bare hands, he makes a soundless "OOF OOOH EEEE OUCH" face. The first time I saw this, I absolutely lost it with glee. Anyone who has moved hay (or straw; they're different!) with bare arms knows how prickly and scratchy and itchy it is, and it's loving little touches like this that make RDR2's horses feel so darn real.

That's all I can think of for now! I hope this list was at least somewhat helpful, even if it's far from an all-encompassing resource on horsey stuff in RDR2. Happy riding, meatverse horsegirls & virtual horsegirls, and remember to always thank your horse :)

#rdr2 #red dead redemption #arthur morgan #horsegirl gamergirl hours #long post #redmeta

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percheduphere · 11 months ago

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honestly I'm more at a loss when people say sylki is canon. I am...very confused by what people mean by that. they were never anything romantic together? I honestly feel like I've missed a whole season of the show when that gets said. that's not from a shipping standpoint; that's from nothing happening that'd make them "canon"

like, to ship sylki is still to ship something that isn't and didn't become "canon". it's still wanting something that didn't happen between them

like, even if sylvie was an intended "love interest" (was she? even? on the basis of her being a woman that loki connects with?), I don't call that alone a romantic relationship between them being "canon". Like, if elizabeth bennet and mr darcy never became anything, they're not "canon". that's just something that could have been but wasn't.

they were never actually anything?

LET'S TALK ABOUT "CANON" & BISEXUAL REPRESENTATION, THE SERIES' MIDPOINT & THE THEME OF BETRAYAL, AND THE SUBJECTIVITY OF ROMANCE

I've been sitting on this inbox comment/ask for a long time because I wanted to make sure I respond in a way that feels productive, kind, and doesn't step on other fans' joy. Having said that, as a Lokius shipper, I think it's really important for Lokius shippers and Sylki shippers to unite on at least one subject and that's positive bisexual representation. This isn't meant to be a harsh reply--I understand what the anon is saying from their point of view--but I also want to delineate between canon and personal interpretation/taste.

I also want to note that it's unfair to disavow Mobius and Sylvie's impact on Loki, Loki's impact on each of them as a result of his individual relationships with them, and thus the impact Mobius and Sylvie have on one another separate from Loki. Doing so really halves the overall richness of the story, and taking this into account is why my metas are so annoyingly long. This one, in particular, is a mess but hopefully I've managed to wrangle it into some kind of coherence that addresses the anon ask that is respectful to Sylki. Fear not, Lokius shippers, I discuss Lokius in this post, too. But first, let's talk about canon and bisexual representation ...

CANON AND BISEXUAL REPRESENTATION

Canon is often defined as: 1.) what is actually written in text (as opposed to subtext), AND 2.) what the creator(s) verbally confirm.

I've said before and I'll keep repeating: the most important aspect of art is art's relationship with the reader/viewer. Individual interpretation is what escalates a medium to a deeply personal and, at times, spiritual level. Art is supposed to make us think and feel. We're supposed to interact with it and do with it what we will. This is particularly important when we consider that much of consumable art is hampered by the demands of capitalism. Fan-interpretation democratizes what people without power want to see and hear, whereas canon (especially mass media canon) often self-censures to sell to the widest audience.

From the creators' standpoint, Sylvie has always been intended to be Loki's romantic interest, and Loki was always intended to have romantic feelings for her. This is what the creators tell us. Whether or not one likes Sylvie and Loki together is subjective.

As for the text, the plot between Loki and Sylvie has the markers of a romance, albeit one that doesn't come into full fruition. By full fruition, I mean a happy ending with each character affirming one's love for the other and committing to being together. Now, a relationship doesn't have to be successful or reciprocal to be considered romantic. Heck, it can be absolutely toxic and still be romantic. Whether or not the plot is convincing in its execution of romance, however, is also subjective.

What romance requires is: 1.) at least one of the characters desiring the other, and 2.) at least one of the characters willing to sacrifice for the other. Sacrifices don't have to be big, either. They can be small and cumulative.

Canonically, Loki fulfills both of these romantic requirements for Sylvie. (More on Sylvie below).

Subtextually (that is, not canon as defined above), Loki and Mobius fulfill both of these requirements for one another.

I'm gonna soap box for the next two paragraphs, so you can skip over this if that's not your jam. Both romances, canonical and subtextual, can exist concurrently without erasing the existence of the other. Even if Loki and Mobius had miraculously become canon in S2 (it's Disney, this never would have happened but let's explore the hypothetical), that doesn't erase Loki's former romance with Sylvie in S1. To erase that history is bisexual erasure, which isn't okay. Likewise, quashing the importance of queer subtext in order to "kill the other ship" isn't okay either, as it reinforces optical heteronormative romance in mass media and is also a form of bisexual erasure.

What's more important than either ship "winning" is the positive portrayal of a bisexual character. This means a character who demonstrates genuine love and devotion to people of more than one gender. If we accept the canon AND the subtext (we don't have to like it; Sylki's not my cup of tea personally, but I accept it as real), Loki fulfills positive bisexual representation, however restrained that representation may be. The social goal is to get to the point where a media juggernaut like Disney allows its franchise characters to experience relationships with more than one gender canonically and positively. We're not there yet and I'll probably be dead before Disney ever gets there, but Loki can be seen as a historical stepping stone distinct from Aziraphale and Crowley (Good Omens) and Steve Bonnet and Edward Teach (Our Flag Means Death).

(NOTE: Polyamory is a whole separate subject matter, which I'm won't get into here.)

ON SYLVIE

There's fan dispute over Sylvie's interest in Loki. I've previously written meta on Sylvie's sexuality and how she responds to Loki's romantic advances here. In S1, while she starts off frustrated, I think Sylvie slowly develops interest and was cautiously hopeful that she and Loki could figure out their futures together. Loki has been consistent about wanting to be with Sylvie and supporting her up until the necessary plot conflict of the series midpoint (S1E6; the S1 finale). This midpoint is the root cause for why Loki and Sylvie's relationship becomes strained. Again, this doesn't mean that the romance never existed--the plotpoints are there--but it does mean Loki's character development got in the way.

So let's talk about the series' midpoint and the interplay of Mobius, Loki, and Sylvie's mutual impact. The three are so deeply entangled that it's worth untangling their cause and effect on one another.

THE SERIES' MIDPOINT & THE THEME OF BETRAYAL

I keep stressing in my other metas that the series' midpoint (S1E6) is the most critical. Structurally, midpoints are where the story turns. Midpoints occur on multiple scales: at the episode level (typically in acts 3 or 5, depending on how the screenwriter divides their screenplay), at the season level, and at the series level. Midpoints are what provide the overall narrative and character arcs with movement.

As a whole, there are 3 key midpoints in the entire series:

1.) S1E2/E3 - When Loki betrays Mobius for Sylvie (midpoint of S1)

2.) S1E6 - When Loki betrays Sylvie for the "bigger picture" (midpoint of the whole series)

3.) S2E3/E4 - When it's revealed HWR betrayed Renslayer; Victory Timely is brought into the mix, and Sylvie reluctantly joins the TVA (midpoint of S2)

There is another betrayal that runs near-concurrently with #2, which is Mobius's betrayal of Renslayer (it begins in S1E4 and continues into the S1 finale). Thematically, we can take Loki's betrayal of Sylvie and Mobius's betrayal of Renslayer as mirrors of one another because these are the only betrayals that are motivated by good rather than selfishness. The selfish betrayals of #1 and #3 bookend betrayal #2 to highlight the beginning Loki's readiness to become a hero in S1E6. Where S1 focuses on Loki exploring who he is, S2 focuses on the hero Loki will become. S1E6 therefore serves as Loki's turn, his launching point to get to where he lands in S2E6. The story is really well-structured!

The poetic irony is that Loki's S1E6 betrayal was not an act of villainy, but an act of character growth.

There is plot set-up for Loki's betrayal of Sylvie, and that set-up is 2-pronged: 1.) from Sylvie's end, her misinterpretation of Loki's intentions, and 2.) from Mobius's end, the provision of unconditional friendship. Building up to these prongs are S1E1 - S1E3, in which Loki's self-interest and impulsivity are emphasized. S1E4 pivots Loki from self-interest and impulsivity to consideration for others and caution. Sylvie did not bear witness to Loki and Mobius's interactions in S1E1-S1E2 and S1E4 in the time loop chamber. She has no context for why Loki would hesitate killing HWR. I'll discuss this more under "Prong 2".

PRONG 1: SYLVIE'S MISINTERPRETATION

In the scene below (S1E5), Sylvie makes an assumption about what Loki wants and Loki admits via subtext that ruling a timeline actually won't make him happy.

Sylvie smiles in response, implying she understands what Loki means, however Loki often speaks in double-meanings (he cannot be trusted) and Sylvie has doubts (she cannot trust). From Sylvie's point-of-view, Loki has discussed the desire to rule with her 3 times (writers' magic 3s again). Above is the third. The previous 2 are:

1.) In their first confrontation in S1E2, when Loki offers Sylvie the opportunity to be his lieutenant. (Can't find the gif of this. Grr ...)

2.) On Lamentis (S1E3) in the scene below:

By S1E6, Loki has no interest in rule.

He's honest when he says he's worried about the greater ramifications of killing HWR. Sylvie doesn't believe him. The question is how did Loki arrive at this point in his character arc? Why slow down now? Why worry about the consequences now?

The answer is in S1E4.

PRONG 2: MOBIUS'S UNCONDITIONAL FRIENDSHIP

It's established in S1E1 that Mobius knows Loki better than Loki knows himself and consequently better than Sylvie knows Loki. A lot of Mobius-haters despise Mobius's cold confrontational tactics but it is those same tactics that force Loki to self-reflect. And to be clear, Mobius uses cruelty in S1E1 because 2012 Loki would not believe in, let alone listen to, softness and compassion. Cruelty is a language 2012 Loki understands, therefore Mobius communicates with him on that level to get him to listen and start thinking about the answers to the hard questions.

Not exactly the gif I wanted, but close enough. In this scene, Mobius wonders why Loki, who "has so much range", wants a throne. He then asks Loki, what's next? The implication of these questions is that Mobius knows Loki will never be satisfied. He knows, deep down, a throne is a poor substitute for what Loki really wants: love, acceptance, and companionship.

Mobius's tone is mocking, his note that Loki has a wide range is complimentary, and the question is serious. Further, and this important, Mobius gives Loki respect in conjunction with his cruelty, his compliments, and his seriousness by acknowledging Loki's intelligence ("I am smart"; "I know") and his potential to be more than a villain ("That's not how I see it"). Understandably, this strange, dizzying mix of seemingly contradictory truths puts Loki off-balance.

Their tenuous allyship becomes a friendship in Mobius's eyes near the end of S1E2. Mobius is practically squeeing about Loki's multiple breakthroughs and how well they work together to Renslayer:

And Loki genuinely looks excited to help Mobius. Look at that fist-pump. Mobius doesn't see it, he's ahead of Loki, so his enthusiasm isn't an act. The seeds of mutual trust (rather than doubt) have been planted.

Unfortunately, Loki's poor impulse control and need to hedge his bets out of self-interest lead him to betraying Mobius. Both Sylvie and Mobius take Loki's betrayals poorly.

The key difference is that Mobius cannot resist the desire to trust Loki, to want to be his friend. This desire creates Mobius's doubt in Renslayer, which in turn leads to his betrayal of her.

Forgiveness isn't easy. It requires the ability to accept disagreements and another person's shortcomings. It requires good will, faith, and a willingness to move on. It requires compromise and, at times, letting go entirely.

Mobius torturing Loki with the Sif memory loop was awful. His personal hurt is directly tied to the below admission, which informs Loki what Mobius thought of their relationship:

And that revelation startles him. It forces him to evaluate his actions that led to Mobius saying such a thing (impulsivity; self-interest). Loki, who doesn't want to be alone, desires Mobius's friendship.

So when Mobius returns to Loki with an olive branch ...

Loki offers Mobius an olive branch of his own by affirming the friendship Mobius believed in but felt betrayed by.

Thus, Loki and Mobius accept each other's olive branches. They forgive each other and repair their relationship from there. This is critical thematically because Loki and Mobius each extend olive branches to Sylvie and Renslayer respectively, both of whom reject those olive branches more than once. Sylvie and Renslayer represent opposite ends of the chaos versus order ideology, for which neither is willing to compromise. Loki and Mobius also start out at opposite ends before meeting in the middle.

Sylvie unfortunately does not know anything about Loki's interactions with Mobius and how those interactions have impacted Loki's motivations. She doesn't know that Loki wants to "slow down and think about this" because the last time he acted on impulse, it turned out he almost threw Mobius's friendship out the window without realizing he had his friendship in the first place.

For her, the seeds of doubt have already been planted: Loki betrayed the TVA to pursue her, Loki expressed shock at Sylvie's desire to "walk away" rather than taking advantage of the "ultimate power vacuum" once the TVA is destroyed, he expresses the desire to rule 3 times. Therefore, it's perfectly reasonable for Sylvie to assume Loki would betray her for power even though she had hopes to the contrary. Romantic tragedy? Absolutely. Believable? Depends on who you ask and what your personal taste is.

There must be some kind of sentiment on Sylvie's part, however, because she chooses not to kill Loki. Instead, she kisses him goodbye and throws him through a time door.

Mobius's friendship is therefore the catalyst for everything that unravels between Loki and Sylvie in S1E6 (the series' midpoint). I think it's safe to interpret Sylvie's tearing into Mobius in S2E4 as not only due to being in the TVA and having all her traumas brought to the surface, but also due to experiencing jealousy. This level of anger matches Mobius's outrage about Sylvie in S1E4! Note, however, that this interpretation of Sylvie's interaction with Mobius is subtext. Subtext goes many ways!

THE SUBJECTIVITY OF ROMANCE

Are Loki and Sylvie a believable romance? It depends on your taste.

A fictional couple's overall successful reception by the audience (which is rarely if ever 100%) is contingent on a few things:

1.) Character development

2.) Story execution

3.) Chemistry between the actors

Reception and interpretation of the above are all subjective. In addition to these elements, another important factor is couple trope. Depending on your preference, some tropes might be nope while others are yum. You might even like most tropes but the actor chemistry, character development, and/or plot are just not doing it for you.

Loki and Mobius follow the tropes of:

Opposites attract/Complementary set

Sunshine and cynic

Enemies to allies to friends to lovers

Sherlock and Watson

Slow burn

Ride or Die

Loki and Sylvie, on the other hand, follow the tropes of:

Exceptionally similar but with key differences/Matching Set

BAMF duo

Enemies to allies to lovers

Bonnie and Clyde

Fast and passionate

Ride or Die

Loki and Sylvie's romantic dynamic may be compared to the following couples in other media:

Batman and Catwoman

Jack Sparrow and Angelica Teach

Benedict and Beatrice

If you notice, they all have very similar personality traits. They also fight and fight a LOT. It's part of their charm and can add to their chemistry.

Personally, I didn't feel any chemistry between Loki and Sylvie, I didn't feel like there was enough warmth between them, and I really wanted Loki to be loved by someone who makes an effort to understand him rather understanding his core traits off the bat by being the same entity. Loki and Mobius hit all the right story beats for me. Tom and Owen's chemistry as actors is remarkable. I'm also a sucker for ball of sunshine and cynic dynamics.

But that's just me. That doesn't mean I don't see what the creators tried to do with Loki and Sylvie in terms of plot, character development, and couple tropes. Some people felt chemistry between Tom and Sophia, others (like me) didn't. Whatever the case, the canon exists and the romantic tropes are there. I just feel the subtextual romance between Loki and Mobius is stronger and that, again, is my subjective judgment.

#loki #lokius #mobius #loki series #loki season 2 #loki meta #my meta #asks #sylvie #loki analysis #my analysis

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fadelbison · 1 year ago

Text

The 25th hour and the kindness Boston unwittingly pays forward to Sand

The 25th hour is such a neat yet complex concept. The fact that Sand's episode is called 'The Extra Hour' and that this extremely rigid, disciplined man's 25th hour is Ray is at once heartwarming and gut wrenching. I've seen multiple people discuss what the 25th hour is and most interpretations were to my surprise very positive! In fact, when I think back to my reaction to the start of the episode I thought it was delightful! What a delightfully irrational way for Sand to think of Ray's role in his life, for a delightfully irrational man who really needs a little bit of magic and fairy tale in his life. And yet by the end no matter how you slice it, the only thing about the 25th hour that stays absolute till the end is that it's not real. There's no such thing as a 25th hour. Whatever was happening between them was happening entirely within the 24 hours of their lives and neither were able admit to it. There is a separate meta to be written about how there are elements of healing in their relationship - definitely for Ray and maybe even for Sand who benefits from being near someone who prescribes to whatever the opposite of his 'The Grind and Hustle' lifestyle is. But there are two sides to every coin and the side that Sand had completely blinded himself to even thought it was all right there - long before Boston showed up - is that Ray is an addict. And the way Ray chases the pleasure impulse of Sand's company is - more than just a little mildly concerning. Both times that they engage in anything sexual is Sand giving and Ray receiving, but more importantly Ray talking Sand into it - not in any way that is even remotely close to coercive but doesn't it niggle at the back of your head a little - just how good Ray is at getting Sand to do things for him? I could let the list run from protecting him, cooking for him, driving him, putting on his helmet for him, dressing him, taking him to concerts all such wonderful beautiful, heartwarming, wounded inner child healing things and yet...there are patterns. 'Thank you for saving my life' once is beautiful, sexy, gut wrenchingly vulnerable. But twice?

The guy did have a bottle so it could have been dangerous and his target could have been Ray's head but he also could have smashed it on a table to scare him, on his back, heck he could have been going for Sand too. Doesn't Ray have a tendency to slightly embellish situations to make himself more sympathetic?

My boy Sand has literally been on the receiving end of it adjfkldshjf. Further, when Sand is aiming to bash the guy's head in turn Ray makes zero moves to stop him. Sand could get into a lot of trouble for intervening here and injuring a random customer while he's not bar security and P'Yo and her boyfriend are the only ones actually concerned about Sand here.

Ray is so turned on by his man going all psycho to protect him (understandable) that his only thought is to fuck him (also very very understandable) but he's just gotten so good at asking for it

Incredibly, incredibly good

And he knows how much Sand eats it up

He knows it turns Sand on, uses it repeatedly in the context of sex. In fact it's the only way we've watched him initiate sex this episode

And worst of all, in the times that Sand doesn't quite take the bait Ray knows how to frame it so that it somehow still becomes Sand's idea, Sand's initiative:

And this scene is so mind bogglingly sexy that I was legit SCREAMING because Ray is being SO sneaky and he's an addict and you can see it from a mile away and imagine being Sand and horny and turned on by how much people need you and then having the cutest puppy of a man constantly wagging his tail at you and needing you and being so generous about how much he appreciates you and constantly telling you how big and strong you are and how you're such a great protector like help this man he is so entirely caught in the web that Ray is spinning. I was so into it but I was also like alarm bells ringing like 'Fire! Fire! Fire!' Sand this is exactly the fire that you were once conscious of playing with but he's totally been blinded to it - how could he not be??? Ray is an addict but he's also a creature made entirely of love, what defenses can Sand possibly have against Ray's innocence and sincerity? This has already gotten so long that I need to stop here or my mind will explode but there's more to be said here about how that scene where Boston outs Ray's crush plays out and Ray's complete inability to reach out and comfort Sand. What I can end this part with is that - Sand really, really needed to hear it. Boston's whole 'Sand deserves to know' thing might have been the shittiest cover to his real motivations of just totally fucking up Ray's life but he's not wrong about this. Boston is not wrong about the farce of Sand and Ray's relationship that he so mercilessly calls out. The 25th hour isn't real and Sand knows it. The show is very heavy handed about it and it fits so goddamn well with my Sand and Mew don't exist on the same paradigm of Ray's life idea that I have been peddling since Ep2

#ofts meta #sandray meta #only friends the series #ofts #sandray #nani's hot takes #god i have more meta inside me than i have time #i might write some of them anyway #but also feel free to ask about things too if you're curious

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lord-squiggletits · 1 year ago

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IDW Megatron and Optimus weren't friends before the war. Here's why that makes their ship dynamic more interesting.

One comment I've heard among people comparing IDW1 MegOP to other continuities of MegOP is (paraphrased) that since they weren't friends before the war, there isn't as much material to ship them with/they don't have an established dynamic/they don't have ~*history*~ that makes them be the bitter exes we all know and love them to be.

In this meta post, I'm going to contend that the IDW1 MegOP lack of friendship before the war is actually a benefit to their dynamic in this continuity, not a negative. Although they didn't get a lot of time together before the war in terms of quantity, the quality of their interactions and the weight it gave their future rivalry is due to the tragic nature of their relationship: They saw a glimpse of each other at their best in their youth, but like a tragic myth of old, circumstances conspired to keep them apart, traumatize them, and turn them into people who couldn't trust or reconcile with each other.

The IDW MegOP's first meeting is like a fated encounter, almost as if it was destined to happen. The way that one single brush can change the entire course of history.

I like to call this a "love at first sight" moment because, although they're not in love, it has this sort of storybook magical quality to it where this one single moment has a lot of weight. This one moment where they saw each other at their best and could have a positive interaction.

When I say that they met each other "at their best" here, I'm referring to Megatron's pacifistic essays and poetry that represent his pure revolutionary spirit and care for Cybertron, and Orion's trait of showing kindness and encouraging individual freedom despite his position of authority. The way that their first encounter was so brief and unassuming makes us, the readers, yearn for more. Doesn't Megatron's silent glance behind him in that final panel make you wonder what he's thinking? They only had that one brief talk at the rodion police station but it went on to ricohet the rest of their lives. Orion started thinking about the corruption of the system due to Megatron's writing. Megatron looked back at Orion with curiosity/lingering feeling after he was escorted out of the station. Even Megatron being put on Messatine was indirectly due to Orion, since Orion delivered that speech on his behalf.

It's almost like literal chemistry, where two particles bumping into each other once can cause a chain reaction of other particles bumping and bumping and bumping until suddenly those two particles are back together.

It's a sort of magical real life scenario where you meet a stranger just once but something they did or said to you makes you remember it and think about it for a long time afterwards. except in this case the MegOPs are (un?)lucky enough to meet again. And they start a war.

I also really like that Megatron and Orion/Optimus spent most of their pre-war backstory apart from each other, because I feel like it makes them stronger characters individually instead of making all of their most important moments be about each other. This is more of a comment on fandom than canon, but many romantic stories fall into a pitfall of a relationship where the two people obsessed with each other: their romance is the most important relationship they have; the entire plot revolves around whether they're happy or upset with each other, it can even make their relationship seem unhealthy and like they have no meaningful relationships outside of their romance. In terms of MOP in other continuities, I feel that putting too much emphasis on their friendship kind of cheapens the worldbuilding and political conflict. True, it's nice when the personal and political intersect in the MegOP's lives, but sometimes I feel (especially in fanon) that the "they were friends but then they disagreed and now they're not friends" concept sometimes ends up being written as if this one simple friendship conflict was the basis of a whole war.

The benefit of IDW1 MegOP is that because they spend their pre-war time apart from each other, they develop separately as people and end up transforming into someone different from their "love at first sight" moment. I like that Orion had relationships with people like Shockwave, Roller, and Zeta, and Megatron had his student/teacher relationship with Terminus and the whole arena thing happening.

Both Megatron and Orion went through traumatizing events during this time period that changed their worldviews for the worse and made them more cynical. Megatron suffered an attempted brainwashing, losing his mentor, his first killing, then being stuck in the arena. Orion went through the loss of Shockwave to a fate worse than death, then the disappearance of his best friend Roller, then worked for Zeta and began to doubt in his ideals/goodness as a leader. In that time between the MegOP's first encounter and their ensuing encounters in a military conflict, they came back as very different people than the first glimpse they got of each other.

Since they only had that ONE first glimpse they had of each other, then met again only to be disappointed by each other's fall from grace (in each others' eyes), this sets up a lot of angst. They wonder if that first glimpse of each other was really true or if it was a lie. Should they trust in those "good" versions of each other they saw so long ago? Do those people even exist? Are they or were they ever worth believing in? Does that man I saw still exist or did I just WANT to see something good in him? That man ruined my life and I hate him for fighting against me, he's a hypocrite. I thought that man was a good person, but he's betrayed the hopes I had by becoming a violent criminal warlord/working for the evil government I thought he opposed.

It sort of has the vibes of a "love at first sight" story gone wrong where their first encounter was kind (I like to imagine Megatron was touched or at least curious about Orion, a cop, telling him to keep writing and be vocal) but then they descended into their worst selves. They only had that one small glimpse of each other at their best but now they're in a scenario where they can only be enemies.

The longing and disappointment is more obvious on Orion's part about Megatron, because Orion got this shining glimpse of Megatron at his best and most passionate, only to encounter Megatron again and all those good parts have been buried to leave only his worst. Megatron's POV about OP isn't really shown, but I feel like it could be interesting to write headcanons about it. How did Megatron feel about Orion making that speech on his behalf? Getting moved to Messatine because Orion made him so public, and all the bad things that happened there?

Yes, their first encounter was brief and they didn't really have a personal relationship before the war. But that brief encounter changed the trajectory of their entire lives. When you combine that with the fact that they saw each other as their "ideal selves", it creates that valid obsession between Megatron and Optimus. It is kind of unhealthy LMAO, because they do kind of become obsessed with each other based on an incomplete view of the other as a person. But then the war happens and they keep having personal and professional encounters that would give them opportunities to meet (such as in diplomacy meetings like Tyrest's peace negotiations and other political things that come with war). And those repeated meetings would only cause them to get to know each other better. Then you get into more mythical/legend-like story dynamics where Megatron and OP have to learn how the other thinks tactically, and their tactical knowledge becomes so intimate they start understanding how the other thinks and it's very dramatic lol. The typical our-enmity-is-so-deep-it-could-be-love enemies to lovers fare.

TLDR:

Circumstances outside of their control drove them apart, made them into different people, and kept them from becoming friends. It makes IDW MegOP feel legendary or mythical, like some sort of epic Greek tragedy of two people who were always 🤏 this close to being friends. There's longing there, and tragedy, imagining what might have been if they'd only been able to talk again, or if they had somehow been able to influence each other before they went down the bad path (violence and crime for Megatron, following Zeta and becoming Prime for Orion/Optimus). But despite that, their natural chemistry perseveres, and they talk to/about each other in a way that shows they still think of each other even when apart.

#megop #idw megop #megatron/optimus prime #opmeg #transformers meta #squiggposting #in short i love them lmao #i didn't even compile all the evidence i couldve i got lazy. but since most of this is under a readmore #i can always update it at some later point i suppose #also i admit i was slightly peeved and that was part of why i made this post #the megops don't need to have a prewar history to have an interesting dynamic #if that was the case then g1 and tfa megop wouldn't be as popular as they are and those dudes had zero relationship outside of being enemie #anyways. i dumped this in a friend's dms and pretty much copied it here #edited it. then added some screenshots. but the longer i look at it the dumber i feel so tadaaaaah #mtmte

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numericalbridge · 4 months ago

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One headcanon that i just can't agree with is the idea that Darius would/should just stay at home post canon and care only about Hunter and Eber, at best other close friends and whoever he is shipped with, but not about anyone or anything else.

Like, yeah, obviously there are people who are the closest to him, and i definitely think he would need to take a break and revaluate his position as the former Coven Head and take a real vacation for once, but Darius is just so flanderized in the fandom into one direction or another, and i just don't vibe with it. And yes, i understand that sometimes it's simply the result of what people want to focus on in fanworks, but i've also seen it spelled out as headcanons in general, like 'oh, Darius hates all the kids for real and only Hunter is the exception', or 'Darius actually can't stand other people other than his loved ones' (and not in the sense that he is easily annoyed, or it is difficult for him to interact with others, but fully, for real).

First, I am pretty sure Dana herself had said in one interview that Darius wants to care about his loved ones but also to help others in general. And you can see it in the show too - Raine says specifically that he was 'protecting' them even though they were not close at the time of ER, Darius laments how 'we' (the rebels) were too late during the DoU, hinting that he always wanted to save the whole Isles ("but he gave up for Eber" you might say, well, my first meta was about what i think of 'Darius easily chose Eber over the Isles' interpretations - Post). So in one way or another he probably would want to help others post canon as well.

Second, he clearly has several interests and, of course, his passion for abominations that he would likely want to continue to persue. He also seems to be quite happy to conduct Raine's ceremony, so he might also enjoy the role of a public figure in general.

And third and probably the most important thing for me, it just fits the narrative of the show better if Darius opens up to other people who are not the closest to him. Yes, found family is great, but it is not the only thing that matters. There are many instances in the series where it is shown how important community is or how its absense is damaging - and not only to the kids but to adult characters too - and i think it is a very deliberate choice, and one of the good things about toh. (And by that i don't mean - and i don't think the show means either - that every character should become an extrovert and completely change personality, or that every character should like and interact with everyone, it can mean different things).

The biggest example is Eda - she starts the show isolated, and while it's not her fault, in season 1 she is, as Luz had put it, individualistic. But through getting to know Luz, Eda not only develops better relationships within her own found family, but she goes from only agreeing to help Bump in the school because it will help Luz and being distantly playfull at best towards other kids, to trying to reach out to Hunter and to mentor Edric in season 2, and finally to opening her own school; she goes from not wanting to free the conformatorium prisoners to saving a wild witch in ER. Yes, the paternalistic conformity of the EC is shown to be bad, but personal isolation and individualism are also not good. And the same happens with others too. The Bat Queen not only opens up to the palisman adoption program but praises the good qualities of the kids when they tell their wishes. Alador improves his relationship with his children, but he also works on using his inventions for the good of the Isles in the epilogue. It is at least implied that if Camila and Luz had bigger support from the adults around them, and Camila had more friends other than her husband to help her, their life after his death would've been easier. Not as noticable with Raine because of how their arc is written (/negative), but it is at least hinted in the ER that their rebellion wasn't very sucessful because of how small it was. This is more headcanon-y, but i can easily see how Lilith's single-minded focus on finding the cure for her sister caused her to ignore the harm done by the EC. And then, of course there are villains like Belos and Odalia whose focus on the family is twisted.

So, i really don't know why Darius's development should go in a different direction and be focused on isolating rather than opening up to more people - in one way or another, it can take different forms, and doesn't mean that he can't be a private person. It doesn't even mean that he must be a public figure (although i think he might be happy in a position like that), he might just sit and write more text books. But I think getting to mentor someone like Willow (not in abominations but in general sense) or Jerbo would be good for him too.

(And tbh with the way Darius's grief over his mentor was twisted into bitterness, and how he seemed to be very much not over his broken friendship with Alador and possibly Odalia (maybe even Raine) for so long, i can see an interpretation where it would be healing for him to learn to expand his circle and through that to learn how to easier let go of his grievances and adjust to change.)

#darius deamonne #toh darius #the owl house #toh meta #long post #darius rewatch meta

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raayllum · 1 year ago

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Callum 🤝 Stoick

“For you, my dear, anything.”

Everyone loves to draw comparisons between Callum and Hiccup (when they’re pretty fundamentally different people beyond the obvious surface level similarities) but sleep on this comparison! Love it

Gonna go on a deep dive cause Hiccup is one of my favourite characters ever but I've never written meta about him so

In some ways, Hiccup and Callum are similar - especially in terms of how they present. They're both goofy, more than a little awkward, deeply curious and compassionate, extremely loyal once you've earned/have their loyalty, a bit flighty and sometimes focused too much on the big picture in lieu of missing the little things. They both grew up feeling like the wrong fit for their environment/culture and it takes bonding with a mysterious, dangerous enemy and subsequent life changing adventure for them to start figuring out where they belong (and how). I think they'd get along splendidly and would absolutely show off flying tricks

However, they are also radically different, mostly because Hiccup is far more rebellious (and particularly in early HTTYD1) far more selfish than Callum is.

Due to a vicious cycle of "I want to prove myself to the village" -> "I mess up" -> "Village is annoyed by me" and a lack of other tangible options of places and circumstances to go into, Hiccup is about as bullheaded as it gets. Even before he meets Toothless, he's not super concerned about being a Viking according to his people's standards, and we don't know if he actually tried at being a traditional Viking very hard before he switched to machinery and inventing (I've also leaned towards not, but that's up for interpretation). He simply wants them to recognize that he can be a Viking, too, by his own standards - and in some ways better and more effectively than they can because he's using his smarts and not just his ('nonexistent') brawn. He's effectively beholden to no one but himself, especially since his relationship with his father is so strained and Gobber does his best, but is understandably not a perfect substitute / cannot be everything a 15 year old boy needs or wants to have socially. This is also why Stoic's scoldings are so ineffective, because pre-Toothless Hiccup doesn't really care that much if he royally mucks things up for the Village time and time again if it's in pursuit of praise/recognition - which is not entirely unreasonable (we all want attention/positive reinforcement) particularly for a teenager, but it is short sighted and immature.

Then he meets Toothless, and learns 1) how to put something and someone else heavily above his own wants & needs, and 2) how to contribute to the village in a way that would be beneficial for everyone, not just the people (beginning of the movie)/himself, or for the dragons/himself (when he was planning to run away), but for all of them, irregardless of himself. This journey is ultimately what's culminated in the third movie by finally living up to his father ("How do you become someone that great, that brave, that selfless?") by willing to do with Toothless what Stoic was willing to do with him: to let him go, so that he'd be Safe. The first thing Hiccup ever did, that set him on an entirely new path after all, was to set a dragon free. I always thought it was very fitting that was his final act as well.

And it's this journey from selfish slightly sarcastic but intelligent, sympathetically immature teenager to a wiser, selfless, less independent but more reliable adult, aided by the events of the films, the memory/inspiration of his father, everything about Toothless and his love/support of Hiccup, and Astrid being about as devoted to Berk as it gets (which is absolutely something Hiccup needs) that allows him to be a great Chief. He's able to put the greater good of his family and people above what he may personally want in the short term ("I was so busy thinking about the world that I wanted, I didn't think about what you needed") to prioritize his goals in the long term ("And we'll guard the secret until the time comes that dragons can return in peace").

And due to all of this, Callum starts out in a fundamentally different place, because he always has an internal and externally imposed responsibility from the start: Ezran. "Take care of your brother," are Harrow's final, parting words to him, after all, and we see Callum take this with him throughout the series, whether it's trying to be assassinated in Ezran's place, promising to return and help him once Zym is brought home, or rushing to defend him when he thinks there's another plot against the king. This is also where we see Callum's selective loyalty creep in. While Callum would make a great general due to his tactician skills and ability to think ahead, he is ultimately too reckless and obsessive to make a good king - or in the Hiccup comparison, Chief. Although both are leadership roles, having Ezran / others there to temper him occasionally as a general is crucial - he needs that safety net (or someone to tell him to keep his eyes on the road) which him being the final authority on the throne would not provide ("I may be queen but even I can't stop those two when they've set their minds on something") that not being on the throne can marginally provide. This is also one of the reasons why I don't think either Callum or Rayla are really suited to a long term life at court / as royalty, but post for another day <3

Callum also has more of a temper and more of a nasty temper toward his loved ones as well that Hiccup really doesn't have a shred of - he'll be sarcastic and a bit snippy but he'll never aim for the jugular, y'know? (Hiccup is also more marginally prone to self blame probably because he's grown up enough to take full responsibility for his actions after a childhood of mostly shirking/dismissing them, but like side tangent)

So like Callum's consistent sense of responsibility keeps him tempered and more mild mannered and less rebellious (and him and Harrow have a much better relationship than pre-HTTYD1 Hiccup and Stoick, which absolutely helps; each may have resembled each other more in HTTYD2 esque dynamic if Harrow had lived to see Callum mature / grow into himself a bit more) but also leaves him far more selectively loyal / focused on his own bubble most of the time.

Like Hiccup is just loyal enough (aided by Astrid) to his People to like be able to do the ins and outs and enjoy it overall? And I've never gotten the same sense from Callum at any point in the series (which "I'm beholden to my inner circle, not some silly kingdom" - thank you TOX). And I do think the way Callum would want to change the world is more magic based - teaching other people how to connect and harness magic - is more in line for him overall but again: post for another day (and we'll have to see where canon goes). Because of Toothless, Hiccup's bubble expands to Astrid and the gang and his father, fully, and stays expanded; Toothless gave him the family & support he needed to no longer need Toothless to stay in the same manner. For Callum, his bubble is Ezran, expands to Rayla as well over the course of arc 1 at first because of Ezran and because of their own bond - and it doesn't really expand with the same intensity to basically anyone else (see Callum being worried, sure, about Soren in 4x06/4x07 but also a lot more focused in general in how Soren's absence is affecting Rayla and thereby focusing on reassuring her)

Callum is also just way more of a loose canon, at least to me. Trying out the lightning spell just because in 1x05 with no safety net, staying way too long at the Great Bookery in 5x04 when they absolutely could've just come back after stopping Aaravos and co., and again: he just has an edge to him that Hiccup doesn't? It's hard to describe and I don't think there's necessarily a reason behind besides "they're two different characters with accordingly different characterizations" but I can't see Hiccup doing dark magic or being tempted by it - even if it was to save Toothless, or something? He's just too much of a bleeding heart/animal lover and a lot more Ezran on that level

Long characterization aside, I actually think Rayla and Hiccup are probably more similar in that rebellious / witty streak to your disappointed more restrictive tougher mentor (Runaan, Stoick) but that Callum 100% has Stoick's devotion to Valka down pat. "For you my dear, anything," the slow approach in asking but not assuming she'll be his wife again, the forgiveness and understanding of Valka and Rayla staying away all that time, the "I don't want another. Your mother was the only woman for me. She was the love of my life" excuse me while I go cry.

#httyd #how to train your dragon #thanks for asking #analysis series #analysis #mandaloriandragontrainer #characterization #tdp #the dragon prince #tdp callum

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fromtheseventhhell · 2 years ago

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I will say that it’s not surprising for book Sansa fans to dislike GRRM’s writing because he doesn’t write her coherently at all, and treats her as more of a camera than anything. Not to mention he pairs her with too many much older men (I hate Sansa’s ships but GRRM clearly write Sansan as romantic). I’ve always thought that GRRM’s writing for Sansa’s chapters is some of his weakest. He doesn’t know how to handle this character. But her fans can’t admit that because then they would be admitting that the parts they love from the books is all the headcanons they made up instead of just being like “yeah I made up someone more interesting and complex because the book is weak and shallow in this area”. That’s why Sansa fans actively get offended when people bring up canon moments and canon quotes from her arc that go against the delusional metas they’ve read.

I have to agree, although for me the issue is with Sansa's characterization itself rather than the quality of writing in her chapters. I think George has done a great job with writing the plot surrounding her and she offers an interesting perspective on things, similar to how we get Catelyn's POV on Robb's war. The issue is that George expanded her role but he doesn't seem to have a solid idea of what he wants to do with her character. She hasn't become more active with her increased story presence. She does have moments that influence the plot but most of those aren't intentional and come in the form of her revealing information to the wrong person (i.e. telling Cersei of Ned's plans and Dontos of the Tyrells'). She hasn't learned or grown as much as her "peers" have and a lot of her chapters do have her used as a "camera" to show what's going on with non-POV characters. I think her character gets overshadowed by the plots she's involved in. George uses her to introduce and hide the plotting of others which is interesting to read, but it also leaves Sansa in a position where she just isn't meant to grow and learn like other characters. If we knew about, say, Littlefinger's true intentions from the very beginning then things wouldn't be as interesting.

To me, her strongest characterization was in AGOT, which makes sense because her role in that book is the one George created her for. She got to be directly contrasted with Arya and overall, I think her relationships with other characters are where we've seen her grow the most. I hate how George has written her relationships with all of these older men, but I do think her relationships with them (platonic) are an interesting showcase of her character. With Sandor and Tyrion, for example, we see Sansa confronting her shallow ideas of beauty and knighthood. With Littlefinger, he uses her as a pawn and manipulates her, but he's also teaching her and potentially handing her the tools of his own undoing. The issue is that a lot of people don't look at how she's actually written and assign her growth she doesn't have. I can understand the urge and I genuinely believe that if Sansa had the same level of growth as others, she would be one of the best characters in the books. She will undoubtedly continue to grow in the last two books but for where the fandom wants her to be, George would need to give her four books worth of development in a few chapters which seems...unlikely.

I do agree that there's an issue with her stans getting angry when confronted with the book content. I've had people get upset with me for simply mentioning that Sansa was a part of LF's plot to poison SW. Her stans want her to simultaneously be the smartest character in the books while also being the purest, most naive character in existence. If you "insult" her intelligence then you're misogynistic but saying that she knows something that she was basically outright told is also bad. A really frustrating attitude that comes from her stans being unhappy with how she's actually written in the books. I think a lot of it comes from people wanting her book plot to line up with the show, but there's just no way that's happening. The sooner her stans come to terms with that and learn to like how she's actually written, the better.

#ask #anon #asoiaf #why people want her to have her show characterization is beyond me...she shows more intelligence in book 1 than she does in season 8 #they basically took away everything that made her Sansa and just turned her into generic /smart emotionless female character/#Sansa /courtesy is a Lady's armor/ Stark would never so openly show her disdain towards Dany her whole thing is charm and grace💀#anti sansa stans #I don't feel like I said anything to get mad at but just in case

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itsclydebitches · 2 years ago

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Clyde, I’m angry because they’re doing it again. They had the opportunity to make a complex situation and they’re making black and white again, Clyde. I’m not happy. I’m very angry, Clyde. The fact that Jaune isn’t allowed to lash out for a second when a village he was protecting was destroyed while Ruby can bitch and moan about a burden she placed on her shoulders really makes me fucking angry, Clyde. Duck this SHOW. Christ.

I feel you 🤣

I do understand the fans - RWDE included - who are fully anti-Jaune because yeah, in the grand scheme of things it's a problem that he is again allowed to hog the emotional spotlight when we've got a cast of four to develop. But within the non-meta context of the story and what we have to work with... hard agree. My problem with the focus of Ruby's meltdown isn't simply that she's complaining about something she actively took from others with horrific consequences (though that is a huge part of it), but that it's explicitly pitted against the death of Jaune's village. Yes, we can infer that Ruby is upset about a lot of things - like Penny - but that's not what's written in this scene. So what you end up with is:

Jaune: I'm lashing out because the family I've been protecting for years in my unimaginable isolation have all been killed and my supposed friends are calling me crazy and won't even acknowledge that this is a true loss

Ruby: I'm lashing out because my self-imposed leadership has gotten too hard for me to handle and my teammates haven't noticed that I'm crumbling under the authority I demanded others grant me

The middle part of that is the only part of Ruby's meltdown I agree with - yes, her teammates have been awful to her since landing in Ever After and I HATE that Yang's sisterhood/Weiss' partnership/Blake's supposed pride in Ruby have all but disappeared - but that's only a small part of her underlying complaint which is... that she got what she wanted? Ruby wanted to call the shots and now she's pissed that people expect her to call the shots. Like yeah, you can (and often should) write a character who regrets their choices, but if they don't acknowledge their agency in those choices (which Ruby veeeery much hasn't) they just come across as a selfish asshole. Which is also a great archetype! ... just maybe not in the supposedly innocent, pure soul meant to be a pretty simplistically good hero?

Then you toss in the fact that Ruby's meltdown is contrasted with Jaune's and things look so much worse. Ruby is regretting her own choices. Jaune is grieving countless deaths at the hands of an established villain and the narrative's uncomfortable suicide metaphor. These are not the same. These are not even CLOSE to comparable and the only way you can try to weigh them equally is if you a) toss in all Ruby's trauma which explicitly isn't brought up or b) buy into her idea that the Paper Pleasers are "make believe" and therefore their loss is of no emotional consequence. Sorry, but that doesn't work for me in a story that (originally) positioned Penny as a person despite not being human AND in an episode that JUST had the girls prioritizing the Paper Pleasers' perspective over Jaune's. The story can't criticize Jaune for not listening to the highly-articulate, autonomous beings and then also claim they're nothing but insignificant figments of his imagination. It's one or the other. If the Paper Pleasers are "human" enough to treat their desire to die with respect, than they're "human" enough for Jaune to grieve the hell out of when they're gone. Plus, I know a lot of people won't buy into this because we didn't see the relationship develop on screen, but Jaune spent years with these non-human people who act innocent and silly and a little bit "dumb" sometimes. That sounds a lot like Penny! If Ruby is subtexually lashing out because she's still grieving a non-human friend she had for a year and two-ish months... why would we expect Jaune's grief to be any less after loosing a whole village of those friends after years of living together? He's grieving countless Pennys all at the same time, after all that time being alone. This basically takes Ruby's situation and magnifies it by a hundred: what if you had LOTS of friends die and the world ACTUALLY forced you into being the hero (Jaune becoming the Rusted Knight) and instead of just being ignored for two days, you were without your friends and family for two decades?

Seriously, Jaune's situation is a lot like Ruby's situation just with trauma squared - right down to him being a leader - except he didn't bring much of this down on his own head. Having these two meltdowns in the same scene isn't just a problem because Jaune gets more emotional screentime, it's a problem because I can't take Ruby seriously compared to the insane horrors Jaune is enduring beside her.

#rwde #rwby #mymetas

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adickaboutspoons · 1 year ago

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bad writing where? I don't think you know what bad writing is and I have doubts you understand the core of the characters.

Hi Nonnie! Girl, how ARE you? Because you seem to be taking it awfully personally that I am not enjoying this season as much as you are. To be perfectly clear, if you ARE, I'm DELIRIOUSLY happy for you! I wish I was too! I was SO looking forward to it! And even though I didn't care for some stuff here and there for the first half of the season, there was a LOT that I LOVED, and I was still holding out hope for the rest of the season! After the last 3 episodes, I am decidedly less optimistic. I'm glad to tell you exactly why, and At Great Length, because that's kind of just What I Do, but here's the thing... It's ok if you like a thing that other people don't. It doesn't reflect poorly on you as a person. You don't have to defend a thing that you like as though it was an extention of yourself. Also? You and I don't have to agree. There's room for interpretation. I have mine, but that doesn't make it Objective Truth. My positions are only as good as I can offer coherent, well-supported arguements to back them up. I like doing that. I think it's fun. You may still not be convinced. That's ok. I don't need you to agree with me. And, frankly, you don't even need to worry about other people agreeing with me. I am small potatoes. I have maybe two posts ever that have made it into the low thousands in terms of notes - not reblogs, but notes cumulative. Most of my original stuff don't even break triple digits. Believe me NO ONE is rushing to espouse the doctrine of spoondick llc. And that's fine. So I'm gonna go ahead and give you the benefit of the doubt that you're asking genuine questions and not just lashing out. But I'm also gonna put my answers below a cut. Because, frankly, you may not entirely agree with me, but you also may not be able to unsee some of the things I point out once I do, and I don't want to take your enjoyment of the show away from you.

So second claim first: that I don't understand the core of the characters. I mean... I have written quite a lot and at length about these characters and their motivations. I mean, each of those is a link to a different meta I've written, and it's not even close to all of them. Which reminds me - I need to update my pinned page. So while you may not agree with my interpretations, at the v. least, you can't argue that I haven't put SOME thought into the matter. With regard to bad writing, the qualifiers may vary from person to person, but to me, it mainly comes down to three interconnected things: Inconsistency, telling rather than showing, and contrivance. I feel that there have been a LOT of inconsistencies with the characters, both between seasons and just within season 2 itself. I'm an unapologetic Stede girlie and he IS the main character, so most of my big qualms are with how his character is being butchered handled.

How the are we supposed to square Stede "had multiple breakdowns over Nigel's accidental death and was so traumatized over everything with Chauncy that he walked back to Bridgetown in his bare feet" Bonnet with the man from last night who murdered Ned in cold blood, and then went on to casually set a man on fire and QUIP about it? It's one thing to butch up with a "how to pirate" montage, it's quite another to become a psychopath, completely unbothered by taking a human life.

And about butching up. While I would, and have, argued that a lot of Stede's insecurities in the first season stemmed from insufficient performance of masculinity, I would NOT say that it was because he wanted to BE more typically masc himself - but rather from the way he has been TREATED for being soft, and internalizing the distain and derision of his bullies. Rather, the whole central thesis to his approach to piracy is it's "traditionally a culture of abuse... And my thought is: why? And also, what if it weren’t like that?" He's flattered when Yi Sao clocks his energy as soft. So his mid-season pivot to needing to embrace these "traditional pirate" behaviors? Yeah - I'd say that's a pretty glaring inconsistency.

Speaking of Yi Sao, lets talk about his fight with her. Because Stede in the first season is consistently shown to be a master of improvisation and using his environment and people's underestimation of him to his advantage to overcome stronger and more skilled opponents. He sends Officer Show Daddy rowing back to the British ship with some impromptu mannequins to give the Revenge time to escape after Nigel's death. He uses distraction and supersition to get the upper hand on Izz during their first encounter. He bests Izzy again in the duel using gunpowder to the eyes when he's pinned, and then using what Ed taught him about taking a stab angling to have it happen against a mast he knew would cause Izzy's sword to break. This initially carries over to the second season with Stede using his lowly position in Towels to acclimate people to deeply inhaling the scent he adds to the towels, and later uses that to his advantage to knock out the guards and escape. So it might have been one thing if Stede was in his cups and mourning Ed's departure that led him to getting overly possessive of his remaining crew and pick a fight with Zheng as a parallel of the Art Exhibition scene from season 1, and getting his ass handed to him as a parallel to Mary's attempted murder/an expression of what a deep impact Ed leaving has made on him that his normal strategizing fails him, but instead, he's getting emotional support (from IZZY of all people) and doesn't even seem tipsy, so he's got no reason to fail so profoundly, and it's played as though Yi Sao is RIGHT about him being "a mediocre man who thinks he's exceptional" when he legit JUST bested her with fucking tea towels 4 episodes ago.

Another big inconsistency for me is Stede's attitude toward Ed, over the first half of the season especially. At the end of season 1, we have Stede irrevocably torching his life as a gentleman of leisure to the ground because Mary has helped him to realize that 1) no body's life in improve by him doggedly trying to insert himself into a life he never wanted or chose for himself, and 2) he and Ed are in love with one another, and he should got find Ed about that. Then we get Stede dragging his heels in the Republic of Pirates while he "earns enough money," but his convo with Blackbeard's wanted poster reveals that he's afraid Ed's life is better off without him. Which? Real Chauncy-coded take there (and also, really? When Stede KNOWS that Ed is weary of the pirate life, but the wanted poster and rumor mill suggest he's thrown himself into it full tilt?). I could understand being worried that Ed doesn't love him anymore because Stede broke his heart, but NOT that "his life is better." But still, Stede IS determined to get back to Ed - he's just nervous about what he'll find when he does. He won't stop talking about it to anyone and everyone. He even yeets himself overboard shouting for Ed when he hears that the Red Flag has come across the Revenge. And then he thinks that he's come too late - that Ed is dead. And he manages to forestall his grief over that long enough to effect an escape, but then goes to do his mourning in private. But wonder of wonders! Ed is still alive! Stede didn't lose him after all! Imagine the rapture within his heart! And then he lets Ed leave without so much as offering to come with, when Ed has barely recovered from 1) a coma, & 2) a suicide attempt. It just doesn't make any sense in any possible world.

I also have a big problem with Mr. "Talk it through as a crew" running away from Lucius when he finally started opening up about the traumtic things he's lived through since he got shoved overboard. I've seen some posts suggesting Stede isn't doesn't prioritize or seem to care much about his crew, but that's just demonstrably not true? His first concern on awakening from being gut-stabbed was about his crew. He apologized when he lost his temper about the fuckery (Never heard an apology, Roach? Really?) and incorperated all of their ideas into the final product. Before he bought the treasure map, he inquired and found out there were no oranges for sale in St. Augustine due to a blight. Stede let Olu crash on his couch instead of having him bunk down with the rest of the crew because they were the charter members of the "my crush just left me for their old life" club and misery loves company. Even in the new season, he set aside his grief over Ed until he made sure his crew - INCLUDING the ones he thought were the ones who MURDERED THE LOVE OF HIS LIFE - were safe. So Stede running away from Lucius in his moment of unburdening himself? And it being played for COMEDY? Is not only antithetical to the established character, but to the central thesis of change being effected by the application of loving support that (I THOUGHT) was central to the whole show.

With Ed, it's mostly better, but even he doesn't escape unscathed. I'm absolutely baffled by the suggestion in episode 5 that Ed doesn't know how to be quiet and sit with his feelings when we see him: 1) stimming quietly with his silk after the "donkey" comment until Stede invited him to open up 2) stimming quietly with his silk after the French Boat Party 3) staring broodingly out to sea after the doggy heaven convo 4) isolating himself in the tub after his kraken meltdown 5) quietly sitting and folding socks 6) pillow fort isolation pod 7) standing quiet and alone after the Izzy confrontation, and apparently not seeing anyone until that night 8) stimming with silk before giving Lucius impromptu late night swimming lessons 9) playing with his dollies 10) cry alone in his room multiple times And maybe it's just that Fang doesn't see those times, because, for the most part, Ed self-isolates when he's feeling particularly emotionally vulnerable. But the show frames it as though Fang is correct? Especially in the after-credits scene where we're listening to Ed's non-stop internal monologue as he fails to sit quietly?

There's more with other characters, but, like I said, the categories are overlapping and inform one another, so I'd like to pivot to Tell-Don't-Show. Because whooo boy is there a lot of it going on. The most glaring one to me is Izzy's whole arc. I've seen a lot of people talking about extending unearned grace and how it's for the healing of the crew, not for Izzy, and that the crew are showing that they've embraced the loving support model they experienced under Stede's tenure as captain. But that doesn't change the fact that Izzy was SUCH a dick that even human-ray-of-sunshine-OLU was rooting for Stede to stab him in the duel, and by the end of last season Izzy sold them out to the English and did such a shit job at captaining that the crew (of which Fang and Frenchie were a part) unanimously voted to throw him overboard bound hand-and-foot. SOMETHING must have happened in the interim to move the needle from "gleefully ready to murder him" to "giving him hugs and unconditional positive regard therapy". But whatever it was happened entirely off-camera. We're just being asked to go along with it. And, to me, that's just bad, lazy writing.

The rest of his arc isn't much better, and highlights more of those inconsistencies. Last season, Izzy was openly dismissive and derisive about sharing feelings - it was one of his driving motivations at taking down Ed and inducing the Krakening. And now he seems to have taken the season-1-Lucius role of being the ship's emotional intelligence? Offering coping advice to Lucius. Suggesting to Ed that he should talk his feelings through. Giving support to Stede after Ed left him (again). Where would he even have accrued that skillset? I'm not saying that it's impossible for him to have changed with the loving support of his crew and in the wake of an identity crisis when he has to figure out who he is if not Blackbeard's right-hand man. What I'm saying is that very little of the actual changes happened on camera. And THAT'S what I have a problem with.

Similarly, I have a problem with the whole Yi Sao-Olu-Jim-Archie relationship tangle. Olu didn't even seem to realize Yi Sao was flirting with him until she said as much. I think he was flattered by the attention, and not averse to the idea, but that's not the same thing as being into her in return. And then, when it's relevant to the plot, we're meant to just trust that he's been secretly pining this whole time? Compare to when Jim left - before they'd even kissed. Olu spent his time mooning over the railing, telling everyone how much he missed JIm, getting drunk, and giving away his room. Since he left Yi Sao, there's been not a single word about missing her, not a moment where he even looks slightly broody. We HAVE seen him bonding with Jim and Archie. Hunkering down against the curse on the same bed as Jim and Archie. Dancing with Jim and Archie. Do you see how this LOOKS like the show is possibly moving in a throuple direction? And then we suddenly get Olu saying out of nowhere that he misses Yi Sao, Jim playing matchmaker for them, and Olu announcing that he's going to leave the revenge to be with Yi Sao. Bye, I guess. And this level of Telling-Not-Showing and inconsistency smacks of Contrivance. And Contrivance really feels like the engine that is driving most of the season to me. It looks an awful lot like the writers had an end-goal in mind, and worked backwards to get there, and along the way did all the hand-waving they had to in order to get where they wanted. Gotta have Stede & Zheng team up against Ricky for an Epic Beach Battle that pits Pirates against The Crown, but why would she want him - especially if she thinks he's "a mediocre man who thinks he's exceptional"?

Oh, what if she loses all her ships because Ricky blew them all up with the world's most contrived bombs?

But why wasn't she on the ship?

Well she was beating Stede's ass at the time.

Why was she beating his ass?

Because he picked a fight with her because he was drunk and she was poaching his crew?

Why are some of Stede's crew willing to leave him even though they were literally ride-or-die even when he was trying to find the guy that marooned them?

Oh, Olu's been in love with Yi Sao this whole time, but, like, never fucking mentioned it, just trust us.

Why was he drunk - Stede thinks drinking 'til you puke isn't fun, remember?

Oh, he is getting plied with drinks because all the pirates love him now.

Why do all the pirates love Stede now?

Because he killed some Big Name Pirate.

Stede? "I'm having a bit of a hard time adjusting to being a mur... mur... murderer?" Stede? Are you sure?

Yeah. He's totally butch now.

....How?

He trained on how to be a pirate with Izzy.

Izzy. The guy that conspired with the British specifically to murder Stede Bonnet? Why?

Ed said he needed to work on his "mean voice" and be more dom assertive.

Why would Ed ever say that? He loves that Stede is out there doing things like no one else.

Because Stede doesn't feel like a captain.

Even though he's calling all-hands meetings and mediating crew grievences and rescuing his crew and no one is challenging his authority or even questioning whether his devotion to his boyfriend is possibly compromising his ability to do his job?

...Yes?

But why Izzy? Stede hates Izzy. Izzy hates Stede. Surely these are universal constants.

Izzy's nice now. He's been rehabilitated by the love of the crew.

...How?

Jingly keys.

#I'm gonna stop there because I've already devoted 3 hours to you nonnie #if you don't believe me by now that I'm not just having thoughtless knee-jerk reactions I don't see how I could possibly convince you #anyway lots of love and I hope you're able to keep enjoying the show #but if my grousing is gonna imperil your enjoyment the block button is v. convenient I've been told #ofmd #our flag means death #ofmd s2 spoilers

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