#and Samael was Anastasia's child

[mayasaura]

Kiriona said that if she killed Alecto, she would be John's cavalier. That's so interesting to me, because it's the one relationship we've never seen in a necrocav pairing. We've had siblings, lovers, cousins, best friends, coworkers, uncles, servants, and whatever the fuck Babs and Ianthe had going on, but never a parent and child.

Unless.

We still don't know what Samael and Anastasia's relationship was, but we do know now that Anastasia was already a mother before the ascension. Pyrrha painted a nursery for her.

It would be very interesting if Samael had been Anastasia's son.

[burlowbeanie]

Locked Tomb Timeline, as far as I can tell

This is a long one, and a bit of a mess. I'll be making other posts about the fun date coincidences and my speculations about their implications, but I figured I should give some of the actual evidence in one solid chonky post so I can link to it and don't need to repeat myself later on.

(BD = before death of the earth; AR = after resurrection; BM = before millennium, AM = after millennium)

Unspecified Pre-Death of the earth: Foundation of Canaan house/the facility that Jod et al used for the cryogenic experiments. Establishment of Kuiper installation, Uranus platform, Mars installation w/ room for 5 million, the Lucifer Telescope, and fusion batteries (Ntn 14, Ntn 74, Ntn 189)

----------------------------------

Now! Some pre-resurrection numbers!

Before 2 BD: C-- sides with the crew (Ntn 13)

1 BD: Governments shift away from the cyrogenics plan (Ntn 13)

0 BD: Jod destroys the world

------------------------------------

Now, the most unclear section of the timeline: the resurrection and its immediate aftermath.

Augustine, from Htn 176: “Alfred and I were there early enough to found the Koniortos Court on the Fifth, but Lyctors like Cyth wouldn’t be born for years and years, and she spent her whole life suffering Seventh House woo-woo theories regarding the value of hereditary cancer … whereas Mercy is the oldest lag except for me, and she was out hammering at the Eighth House before the paint was even dry on the Resurrection.”

The resurrection occurs a few weeks after the death of the earth (Ntn 396). Then things get a bit hazy. We know the approximate order of the resurrections of the original ten disciples, but not how far apart they were staggered - was it minutes? Months? Years?

Similarly, Cyrus/Val and Anastasia/Samael are implied to have showed up before Cytherea/Loveday, when Cytherea was almost 30 years old. Both cavaliers have last names associated with their house, which suggests that either the third and ninth were established enough to at least have a small population by the time that they went to Canaan House, or that they took those names/were given those names later on.

Cytherea-as-Dulcinea says that she "dreamed of being a 9th nun" at age 13, and it's unclear if she's speaking as herself or as Dulcinea or how much she was lying as either persona (Gtn 104). Thus, we don't know if the ninth house was established by the time she went to Canaan House, though it seems like the sort of hint that both Cytherea and Muir would have had a fun time dropping.

Thus, while it is possible/seems probably many/most of the houses were established by the time that any of the newer disciples showed up, especially Cytherea, that is unconfirmed. However, it took until at least 30 years after the resurrection, probably more, for all 16 of the disciples to gather.

A rough order of events during this time, some of which may overlap:

Original disciples resurrected

New disciples arrive

Lyctors ascend; Anastasia fails

Alecto is put in the tomb and Cassiopeia dies

The lyctors and Jod flee to the Mithraeum, leaving the system

Particular questions that remain and would help clarify things:

Were Anastasia, Samael, Cyrus, Valancy, and Loveday born or resurrected? It seems like Cytherea was likely born.

When did Anastasia have a child and found the tombkeeper line?

When did Pyrrha (or G1deon!Pyrrha) paint a nursury? Was it the same time she visited Anastasia "before she got settled" (Ntn 85)? Was Anastasia's child the birth she assisted at (Ntn 121)?

When was the ninth founded? When was the prison installation founded? Was there anything on the ninth before Anastasia was told to prepare for Alecto's imprisonment? Samael seems to have been born or resurrected after the ninth was founded, unless he was given his name later?

-------------------

After resurrection: Actual Numbers. Once we get like 100-200 years out from the resurrection, things start to get clearer. Not clear, but clearer.

100 AR: God names himself Gaius (Htn 521). Is this when Cytherea ascends, since she is given credit for the "naming oneself after one's cavalier" thing? Or was that some God bullshit?

200 AR: Alecto put in tomb (Htn 478)

4000 AR: source gram comes from sixth house to BOE (Htn 529)

5000 AR: BOE comes to the attention of jod and the lyctors; they may have existed beforehand but been unable to find the houses/be found (Htn 154). Augustine begins questioning the purpose of the empire (Htn 483).

Moving into the thousand years before the events of the series:

9000 AR/ 1000 BM: Matthias Nonius lives (Gtn 53)

750-700 BM: New Rho contract drawn up (Ntn 206)

519ish BM: beginning planning of dios apate major (Htn 474)

300 BM: Cyth gets angry (Gtn 402). Last contact between second and first houses (Gtn 456).

100 BM: Jod leaves the Mithraeum (Htn 81).

80 BM: Jod joins the Erebos (Htn 81)

40-39 BM: G1deon starts to really annoy Augustine, who speaking in 1 AM states: “He has caused me more pain over these last scant forty years than I dare to admit" (Htn 268). I think Wake makes the most sense as an explanation for this, though it's off by about five years.

34 BM: Wake reinvigorates BOE (Htn 154). Ortus born? That’s a fun coincidence that means nothing.

30 BM: Mercy thinks Jod should have returned to the Mithraeum then (Htn 81).

25-24 BM: BOE finds out about resurrection beasts (Htn 275) because Wake talks to G1deon (Ntn 155)

21 BM: G1 begins his (final) pursuit of wake (Htn 469)

Sometime after 300 BM, most likely 20 BM, Cytherea teaches BOE about steles and obelisks (Ntn 155)

20 BM approximately, presumably, could be earlier: Augustine and Mercy talk to BOE. BOE gets accurate fleet schematics for the first time in a hundred years and eventually the location of the mithraeum, though those were probably earlier with Cytherea and two decades later with Cytherea!Wake respectively (Ntn 155)

19 BM: Isaac’s dad killed by terrorists on [redacted], presumably BOE (Gtn 459). Mercy and Augustine are “talking” (Htn 87); Dios apate major. Mercy sees Cytherea for the last time and Cytherea laughs so much she insults Mercy (Htn 120), which is an understandable response given that Mercy may have described the dios apate major plan and/or requested her involvement. Mercy sees Sarpedon as a young soldier (about 20 years PM; close enough and matches up with dios apate) (Htn 81).

19–18 BM: Wake dies (Htn 88). Gideon born. Creche massacre.

17 BM: Harrow born.

14 BM Gideon’s first escape attempt (Gtn 24)

13 BM: Gideon is not a necromancer confirmed (Gtn 24)

10 BM: Augustine sees Cytherea for the last time (Htn 120). Wake’s bones get put on rotation (Htn 476).

9-8 BM: Harrow is suicidal. Harrow opens the tomb. Harrow hears/sees the body. Onset of psychosis. Unclear in what order (Htn 49, 247).

7 BM: (Harrow is still suicidal but sees the body?). Harrow and Gideon fight (Htn 477). Gideon sees Harrow opening the tomb. Her parents kill themselves. Gideon gets nightmares about being in the tomb (Gtn 202).

5 BM: Harrow starts puppeting (?girl wtf?? What was going on in the intervening two years???) (Gtn 348). Last ninth house chaplains and adepts are lost in action (Htn 81).

2 BM: Gideon enters Drearburgh for the last time

1 BM: Number 7 estimated five years from the Mithraeum (Htn 125).

0 BM, with rough approximates:

Month 1-3: prepping for Canaan house

Month 4: Canaan house

Month 5: harrow throws up; Camilla nonverbal

Canaan house recovery missions from the emperor and BOE — what the fuck. Who got there first. How and why did they miss the other people. Seems like BOE got there, intentionally left H and I but took G’s body??????????

Month 6: Harrow and Ianthe arrive on the Mithraeum

Month 8: Harrow kills her 13th planet with Mercy. It’s desert and triple-sunned. Wake makes posthumous contact with BOE (Ntn 155).

Month 9-10: When Judith says she begins writing her report; she’s with BOE on a wooded double(potentially triple?)-sunned planet. At one point several weeks (or months?) later Mercy shows up. According to Judith, that is. Judith honey I might need to recuse your testimony for somehow being more of an unreliable narrator than the lobotomized traumatized psychotic unmedicated half-dead triple-haunted 201-souled Harrowhark Nonagesimus. Then I could bump this back to month 8 which would make more sense.

Month 10: Harrow catches G1d!Pyrrah with Cytherea!Wake

Between Month 10 and Month 12: Harrow turns 18. Harrow discovers G1d can drain thanergy. Harrow makes soup. Harrow makes Ianthe’s arm. Dios apate minor.

Month 12: Harrow finds Cam and Pal on a wooded planet and sees Judith. Judith tries to warn Harrow about Mercy’s involvement.

Mercy ditches her for unspecified business. I suspect this is when she meets with We Suffer? Was this when she heals Judith?

1 AM

Month 2: death of the emperor. Quick undeath of the emperor. Nona born(?)

Month 5: Station Red-As-Blood abandoned (Ntn 152). The demons show up on Antioch (Ntn 448).

Month (6?): Nona gets a job (Ntn 41).

Month 7: nona gets shot, cam/pal fusion reveal (Ntn 105 through the end of the chapter)

Month 8: events of Ntn

[xenart]

No because I can’t stop thinking about the themes of childhood in the locked tomb, I’m not sure if its like, a byproduct of other themes, or if it’s all building to something- the mere existence of Nona seems to imply the latter- but it cant escape notice that a huge portion of the characters in the Locked Tomb universe seem to have been denied childhood.

The Lyctors quite literally never were children, they were reborn with no memory of their prior lives. Their sociopath behavior is not just a byproduct of their age but the fact that they literally do not remember ever being  nurtured or cared for. I don’t think its a coincidence that the Cythera and Loveday were the last to ascend, and Anastasia and Samael *didn’t* ascend, and they were 4 of the 6 saints to remember their childhoods (no clue on what Cyrus and Valency thought of it afaik)

 The Nine Houses in of themselves do not seem designed to provide a nurturing childhood. Children start preparing for their life of war early, doubly so if they are born with necromantic ability. We do see some examples of nurturing, but we see even more of children thrown into war before puberty, and children being born to become batteries. The one house we know for a fact was dedicated to protecting children till they turned 18 is the ninth house, and the plot of the series arguably begins with the decision to betray that dedication.

Harrow is described as being insanely unchildlike from birth, being able to sit silently in pews for hours.

I feel like if there is a thesis statement on the series relationship to childhood in the books so far, it comes from the scene where Ortus apologies for not looking out for Harrow:

“She was the Reverend Daughter. She was beyond pity, beyond the tenderness of a member of her congregation rendering her down into a neglected child. The problem was that she had never been a child; she and Gideon had become women before their time, and watched each other’s childhood crumble away like so much dust.”

It’s been said before that a large part of the series seems to reflect love as pity, caring for someone when they’re in a wretched shameful state, when help is truly needed and people answer the call and do it with kindness. Childhood is when this type of love is most given, when we are our most vulnerable and our care is given most unconditionally.

And the fact that Nona’s story is so important to the series that it was worth expanding the trilogy to a quartet for her- it speaks to me that it was very important for her to experience that kind of nurturing love on a personal level, as a human. A lot has changed since John locked Alecto away, but the biggest difference- the one John doesn’t even know about -is that his Revenant Beast now has an inner child.

[jackayline]

my open locked tomb questions *spoilers*

the tomb is open and these questions are too! Can you help me answer them or speculate some wacky theories?

The River 

What exactly happened to the River at the end of Nona and why? What is the tower?

Where are the people who disappeared into the stoma? (Augustine, Ulysses...) What exactly is hell, metaphysically?

What exactly IS the stoma?

Is the King over the River who Abigail mentions in HtN a different entity from Jod?

What happened to Mattias Nonias and Ortus after they went the fight the RB? Did they just go into the River? What happens when people go into the River though

Metaphysics of the First House and the Resurrection 

What exactly happened with everyone's memories? Why does Pyrrha remember some stuff e.g. Gideon's original name (she calls him G-- near the end of NtN) but Augustine and Mercy don't remember John's original eye color?

So Jod can't die unless killed by Alecto? Can he actually be killed by RBs or is it really just a sham?

Can Jod actually resurrect people now or does he need Alecto? I mean we've seen him basically resurrect Gideon Prime but was he technically still alive, just... in bits? Can Alecto resurrect without Jod?

Did Jod repopulate the Ninth like he promised Harrow? What happened these people?

It seems like the people who were going to repopulate the Ninth were like... being suspended in cryoanimation. Who are these people? Are they like, people got put into cryo right after the Resurrection?

Would Jod have just killed everyone after the trials at Canaan house if they hadn't died, ascended, or disappeared anyway? Is it possible he's tried to make new Lyctors before and he just disappears everyone after they fail?

What exactly would happen if Jod went to the First House?

Why can't you send or receive transmissions to/from the First House?

Stole the eyes of my soulmate (Lyctor things)

Why does Nona have golden eyes if Kiriona is a revenant? Is it because she has Alecto's soul?

Where is Gideon Nav's soul? Is it still in Harrow or in Gideon's revenant body?

Was Nona three people in one body?

What exactly happened to Anastasia and Samael? What kind of Lyctorhood did they achieve?

Paul???? So many Paul questions, what is Paul like? Like what is their inner experience of selfhood like? Was Paul always there since Pal entered Cam's body?

House Histories

Why is Canaan house like that? Like it was built as a replica--a replica of what? Or was it more like an homage to Earth? How much of pre-Resurrection like... culture and history was kept?

Who founded the 7th house if Cyth and Loveday were already of the 7th pre-Lyctor? 

Resurrection beasts & Alecto

Did Harrow just hallucinate the Body or did Alecto somehow impart a fragment of her soul when Harrow was a child? I think it's really just that Harrow hallucinated the body...

Why were Alecto's eyes like that (creepy black all the way around)? Is it just Aesthetic?

Inconsistent resurrection beast count?

Unseen character dynamics

What were Ulysses and Titania like, exactly?

What exactly was the dynamic between Alfred and Cristabel? Like why were they a bad influence on each other?

Critical plot questions

How did Harrow get into Alecto's body? (My answer for this is that she travelled through the River instead of going back into her own body. But like... how did the body switch happen?)

How did Harrow's body (Nona) get to Cam+pal and Pyrrha? How did Pyrrha get to Cam+pal? Did I just miss something in NtN?

How did Gideon's body with Gideon's soul (?) which was in Harrow get to the Emperor? Because I thought BoE had Gideon's body? Was it that Gideon's soul DIDN'T get to the emperor but her body did?

What is the role of the Messenger? Who exactly is Aim?

What are the creepy monsters that invaded the Ninth and that Colum Asht turned into? Are they RB related? Heralds? Are they from the stoma? (I think it's the latter?)

What happened to the trillionaires? Are they actually out there or has Jod just been running from his own demons?

Are we ever going to see the Gang from school again?

[jbm04]

Was thinking about Anastasia asking John to kill her after the failed attempt at Lyctorhood with Samael. He said something about still having something for her to do.

What if initially, that something wasn't actually building a tomb and guarding a body? (Which I think I think was meant for him, not for Alecto. Or that was part of the lie anyways).

What if he just sort of semi-banished Alecto to the Ninth and asked Anastasia to watch her? Anastasia learned a lot about Alecto in that time. Probably learned her true nature. And Alecto could have maybe taught Anastasia to want to live again? Kind of mirroring Harrowhark's situation with the body?

I'm not sure what their relationship was. I'm not totally sold on Anastasia and Alecto having been in love. It's definitely possible. For some reason my instinct says Anastasia was more like a mother figure to Alecto? Though I admit, I think this could make the found family situation in NtN seem less unique.

I don't believe that Anastasia was in on the con though. I don't think it was her intention to entomb Alecto. I think she was tricked too.

In some long forgotten previous post I imagined that Anastasia buried herself in the tomb in an attempt to stop John from going through with it at the last minute. She served John the ultimatum of, "stop this or you'll have to bury us both". Then John just buried them both. She likely starved to death in that tomb with a sleeping Alecto. John's shame isn't only that he killed Samael. He likely killed Anastasia too.

Also, Anastasia would have had a child by this point so someone would have had to explained to this kid why mommy isn't coming home.

[paradoxcase]

Chapter 51, 52, 53, and Epilogue of Harrow the Ninth

Sorry I kept this for so long, had a bad couple of days and also, it's just a lot of stuff

And then she discovered that her dad is actually the most important person in her world, and that he was never going to come for her because he didn't know she existed, and wasn't any better than the people she wanted him to rescue her from

On another note, I'd live to hear more childhood Gideon/Harrow fighting

So this is the fight that was described back in Gideon the Ninth just before Harrow opened the Tomb, and yeah, this must have been what drove her to do that, if she came to the Tomb directly with Gideon's blood under her fingernails. I think they both must have envied each other, in different ways

On the reread, I am wondering now, what kind of person, or, I guess, entity, was Alecto anyway, and why did Pyrrha alone not hate her? And I guess John, although I think he had other reasons for wanting to keep her around, and he also described her as a monster to Harrow way back when. These descriptions don't really seem to match with Harrow's hallucinations of her, so now I'm back to wondering if they were just hallucinations and not a secondary haunting or something like that

I missed this on the initial reread, but I think I see now - Anastasia would have died when John killed Samael if she had succeeded in attaining Lyctorhood the proper way, with both people still alive in different bodies. So, because John did attain Lyctorhood that way with Alecto, killing Alecto will kill John, even though he apparently can't be killed due to harm to his own physical body at all. So that's why they were breaking into the Tomb - they were going to kill Alecto and thereby kill John, and that's why they wanted Wake to help out with evacuating people, because they thought they would have to do that after John died. How long have they been plotting to kill John? And I gather than Cytherea must have been in on this plan also, if she also recognized what Gideon's eye color meant, since if she wasn't in on the plan she wouldn't have known that John's child was alive on Pluto. And when the plan failed, she tried her thing at Canaan House instead

What's most interesting to me about this is that as far as the official story that John told his Lyctors goes, the Tomb was just a place for him to bury Alecto, who had some sentimental connection to. Meanwhile, in the Nine Houses, the mythology is that the Tomb houses the Emperor's ancient enemy, and opening it will cause him to die and bring about the apocalypse, and that's actually correct, well, if that's what happens when John dies, anyway, if Alecto is killed John will die. But the Lyctors don't know this, or at least aren't supposed to know it. I wonder if the mythology started because Anastasia understood what true Lyctorhood was, and that Alecto was John's cavalier, and therefore also knew the real purpose of the Tomb, so she started this mythology based on that? And meanwhile the Lyctors never heard about it because the Ninth House rarely winds up in the Cohort and probably no one else is that interested in talking about the Tomb

So Augustine thinks she's become a full Lyctor and doesn't realize that it's just Gideon in control of her body now. Mercy definitely realized it was just Gideon, and so did Pyrrha, though

So are we meant to believe that John was born as a regular human being in the 21st century or whatever with Gideon's eyes and there's no like, magic or anything behind that color, just genetics? It's now being described in ways that make it seem entirely inhuman

I wonder if she would have chosen to use Corona instead of Naberius if she knew there was a way for her to wind up alive at the end of the process?

What is John looking for? I get that he seems to be mad at BOE for whatever happened to Earth/humanity, but is there also something he's looking for?

I'm also not terribly clear on why Augustine thinks ending this war will absolve John as far as he's concerned? Like, those things don't seem related. This thing about the actual secret of Lyctorhood is a lie that John told his Lyctors, like, a personal grievance between them, I'm not sure what it has to do with John's conflict with BOE or whatever greivances happened over Earth and all of humanity dying. It doesn't sound like John lied to them about that, if we can believe what's been said so far in this chapter, quitting the war won't actually fix anything that Augustine is mad at John about

So this is the payoff from the line about how the only reason for Mercy to be so specialized in anatomy is to kill a Lyctor?

I wonder how true this actually is? When John comes back, he says that not much happened and only the Sixth House would maybe experience anything, but again, the sun isn't destined to become a black hole, so I've got to wonder if even what John said is accurate for the consequences to the system?

But it is interesting, that in setting out to kill John, Mercy and Augustine effectively decided that they were going to sacrifice everyone else in order to avenge their cavaliers, because that is what they thought would happen

I think this maybe explains her actions at the end of the book. She's probably a little mad at John, but I don't think she's mourning Naberius, whereas she has friends and family back on the Third, probably, and to the best of her knowledge Corona is still in the Nine Houses system. It's not that she's particularly loyal to John, I think she just obviously doesn't think killing John is worth it if it means that all those other people have to die, too

Was the Cristabel and Alfred thing then that she convinced him to agree to die for Augustine? From what Augustine said in the last chapter it seems like he maybe attained Lyctorhood under kind of similar circumstances to how Harrow did

Way back at the beginning of Gideon the Ninth, zenosanalytic reblogged one of these posts from me and said something about black romance with respect to griddlehark, but I don't think their relationship is actually at all like black romance? There's way too much of Gideon sacrificing herself for Harrow, which is not how black romance works. But this, this feels like good old traditional Homestuck-style black romance right here

Originally I thought this was going to be "you should know that John can't actually die and he's about to come back to life" but in retrospect it was definitely going to be "you should know that Gideon is dead and I'm actually just Pyrrha now"

So all that stuff about how he was so sorry and how could he be granted absolution and that he'll do anything and so forth, it seems like that was bullshit actually, because Mercy said "you can gain absolution by dying" and he was mad about that. Like, Harrow almost killed Gideon/Pyrrha earlier in this book because they were trying to kill her and one of them at least was like "you know what, I deserved that" but John is mad, he doesn't think he deserved that, despite what he said earlier, I don't think he actually thinks he did anything wrong at all. He lied to them "because it was easier", you don't really do something you really regret just because it was easier. Maybe he thinks he's being a nice person by telling them that he really regrets killing the cavaliers and misses them and so forth, but I don't think he actually regrets it very much

I'm not sure I see what the point of John pretending he was vulnerable would be? Unless this was all just about not bleeding so that the blood ward couldn't be tampered with? Or the fact that he resembles a resurrection beast to the stoma, probably because his cavalier was a resurrection beast?

She means it, too. Unlike Ianthe, Gideon is perfectly happy to send John to literal hell for terrorizing Harrow even if it means that the entire Nine Houses will be destroyed, and probably the fact that Crux will die too is just a bonus

I guess that last bit is a quote?

I remember way back when when Augustine told Mercy that he was John's favorite, and that if he killed Mercy he'd be forgiven, whereas Mercy wouldn't be forgiven for killing him, and that's not exactly what happened, but John knows that Augustine 100% plotted to kill him, and was ok with killing him even if it meant killing everyone in the Nine Houses too, and even if Augustine accepts John's forgiveness here he will only be behaving because he knows John could kill him whenever he wants to and Augustine can't kill John, and John is still willing to live with that situation if Augustine will obey him out of fear, so I think Augustine was in fact right about that, John must either like or just plain need Augustine to a huge extent to make this offer, I think

I missed this the first time, too, but from this I gather that John's god-powers do not actually work in the River, for some reason? If they did, I would imagine he would have just killed Augustine the same way he killed Mercy

This doesn't seem to have ever been clarified?

So at the beginning of the book, Harrow didn't need to breathe because she was in the River, not because she was Lyctor

So I guess this is saying that Gideon and Pyrrha properly switched eye color, like John and Alecto did, and now that it's Pyrrha here, she has Gideon's original eyes, whereas hers were originally the green. But I don't think they switched eye color every time Pyrrha was fronting or whatever, because the other Lyctors would have noticed that. It only happened now that Gideon is dead

Also, since Gideon himself wasn't aware that Pyrrha was still around, I guess when the incinerator thing happened, the person who got almost killed by Wake and who talked to Harrow after being rescued was Pyrrha, and Gideon was the one who she talked to after the fact, who didn't remember anything. From his perspective, he just blacked out sometimes and forgot things he'd done and that had happened to him. I remember that Pyrrha wasn't healing the way Harrow thought she should be in that scene - was that because she was Pyrrha at that point and not Gideon?

I don't think the same thing happened to them as what happened with Harrow and Gideon, though, because isn't Gideon Nav mainly around only because of what Harrow did to her brain?

I love that the book sets up this wild and dramatic straight relationship between Gideon and Wake and immediately is like "just kidding, it was lesbians all the way down!" Magnus and Abigail are the only people who are allowed to be straight in this story. Palamedes can have a little, as a treat, I guess

This whole thing where Augustine tries to wrestle John into the stoma and winds up getting sucked in himself is just a callback from when they talked about that happening to Ulysses, right? Augustine wasn't willing to rick this to kill Number Seven, but he's willing to risk it to kill John

Is that... a Miette reference? This is absolutely the worst possible place for there to be a Miette reference

Is this a hallucination? Or somehow real?

Gideon says she died, but she also says she died like a half a dozen separate times in the last few chapters, so who really knows?

Something that I think is actually really great about this ending is that throughout this whole book, Mercy and Augustine have been treading this line between being mildly amusing and just being irritating, at no point could I say I actually liked those characters and would care if they died. But somehow, at the end of the book, they do things that are actually, genuinely heroic and principled (after a fashion, they really were ok with killing all of the Nine Houses) and none of it was remotely out of character at all and now I like these characters and am sad that they are dead. Like forget "kill your darlings" the new hot writing tip is to kill the annoying character that the reader hates and make them genuinely sad about that anyway. And Mercy never even got to have her precisely-planned 24-minute funeral after all

So possibly Gideon is not actually dead, or not dead in the sense that most of the other cavaliers are dead, and I'm guessing Pyrrha is probably also not dead in that sense. So did this actually happen to them as a result of how Harrow achieved Lyctorhood, and not because of the brain surgery?

This is so great and wholesome after John's whole thing of "oh, I just didn't tell you because it was easier that way

Ok, so, 1) why would Gideon be responsible for whatever is going on right now, and why would Harrow think she was involved, and 2) how does Harrow know that's not a real publication, Gideon doesn't really strike me as the kind of person who reuses jokes with multiple different people

As for the epilogue:

What I'm getting from this is that someone new (I guess probably Nona) is now in Harrow's body, and Harrow's body and probably also Pyrrha have wound up in BOE somewhere, with modern technology, which is totally possible since you can travel large distances in the River, and she's living with Pyrrha and Camilla and someone else who might be Judith or Corona, or might be Palamedes with a new body or something, and they are trying to see if they can get either Harrow's soul or Gideon's to resurface and it's unclear what has happened to both of them. And I guess Nona still has Harrow's magic healing ability, and they have to hide that Nona is/was a necromancer, because this is BOE

Also, I've now realized why tumblr is full of Locked Tomb posts about people who have names like Hot Sauce, because this is now BOE and everyone has names like that, the Dramatis Personae of the next book is going to be a hoot, I can tell

It looks like there's some back matter in this book, including As Yet Unsent. Is the As Yet Unsent in the back of this book the whole story, or is it an excerpt from a longer thing that I should go hunt down somewhere else?

[lawnjarts]

someone shared a drawing of the Anastasia monument and it really inspired me to draw what i always picture in my head.i dont remember any actual descriptions from the book. so here she is: sword symbolizing guarding the tomb, basic clothes cause shes a humble nun, the child cause shes the mother of the ninth, and samaels chain, the end clutched close to her heart. and shes a little larger than life. pose from here

[sluttyprinceundying]

Lyctors' Names Pre-Resurrection, i.e. my silly headcanons based on little if anything at all

Samael: Samuel? We don't know much about his personality. I don't remember him being mentioned much in the John monologues although I don;t have NtN in front of me right this second.

Anastasia: Second generation I think.

Cristabel: Clare/Clair/Claire. Isn't it such a very nunly name? And Cristabel sacrificed herself (twice!) to help someone else -see- a necromantic truth of the soul. To aid someone's clear sight.

Mercymorn: Mary? Augustine would call her Molly and it would annoy her to no end. Also Mercymorn tried to be the egg donor for Bomb, i.e. the woman who bore God's child, although it didn't work out very well.

Loveday: see below

Cytherea: she's early second gen according to Augustine so was she even there?

Nigella: Nicole, called Nicky/Nikki.

Cassiopeia:

Augustine and Alfred: love that they're both A names. Twins are so weird. Anyway: I got nothin'. Alan and Allen.

Titania and Ulysses: were dead by the time John knew them.

Cyrus: Chad. oh., you know. Although apparently he's second gen. BUT IF HE WASN'T--

Valancy: was second gen too I believe.

Pyrrha: Penelope--she's been keeping Gideon's home fires burning for ten thousand years, isn't that enough?

G1deon: Gary. Based on me thinking it's funny.

[arithmonym]

a reticent spectre

[read on AO3]

After Nona tumbled forward onto the icy dead breast of the Body — after the child’s game ended with the family dissolved — Paul faced the woman who was left behind. They said, “I’m sorry. For what it’s worth.”

“I knew this was happening months ago,” said Pyrrha, addressing her remark somewhere to their side. She didn’t know whether Paul’s words were an apology or an expression of their condolences, and frankly, she didn’t care. Neither would change a damned thing.

She avoided their gaze out of an exhausted sense of self-preservation. Pyrrha was no stranger to grief, but she was unwilling to confront the curious mixture of their eyes: the clear grey irises, the cool grey-brown pupils. Even now, she struggled to reconcile that the original shades belonged to Sextus and Hect, respectively, rather than the other way around.

Such was the hand she’d been dealt: Pyrrha only knew the Sixth as imperfect Lyctors. They only knew her as the former cavalier whom the Lyctoral well had chewed up and spat back out. Now, she didn’t know them at all. Just when she carved out an understanding of the world, it changed; but at least this was typical. Pyrrha was used to being left behind.

“You said that before,” Paul noted. “Months, plural?”

Pyrrha wouldn’t elaborate on the timeline if they weren’t smart enough to figure it out for themselves. Even as a newly-minted Lyctor — louder than God’s revolver and twice as shiny, so to speak — Paul could never know everything. Better they learned that now, before their ego got them in trouble.

She hadn’t realized that Camilla and Palamedes heard her mumbling, though, in the deep tunnel before the creation of Paul. She narrowed her eyes, more curious than upset. “How did you know that?”

Paul shrugged, and the line of their shoulders was all wrong. “They were keeping an eye on you still. Both of them could read lips.” Almost apologetically: “When the circle closed around them, they lost sight of you and Nona by the truck.”

Pyrrha laughed humorlessly. It was only the second year of the new myriad, but it didn’t feel presumptive to call this the understatement of the century.

“See, that’s where you’re wrong,” said Pyrrha. “Sextus and Hect were given the opportunity to kill themselves — to merge into one being in the most flagrant display of enmeshment I’ve ever seen — and they lost sight of everything else in the universe. No offense.”

Paul tilted their head, conceding the point. If Pyrrha thought this would dispel their flat demeanor — would pierce through their strangely-distant shell to reveal there were soft, chewy bits beneath — she would be disappointed. Luckily, Pyrrha had never been an optimist.

“No offense taken,” said Paul easily. “I mentioned their rainy-day back up plans. This was the best option, given their circumstances. I’ll only apologize that it was unpleasant to watch.”

The worst thing was, they sounded like they meant it.

“Again with the understatement,” said Pyrrha before she could stop herself. “It was gruesome. It was terrible. It was goddamned ghastly.”

Paul countered: “So is traditional childbirth.”

Pyrrha gestured to the mint green walls of the Anastasian, which were still dimly illuminated by the glowing beetles. “Some ninety-odd centuries ago, this was a nursery. I painted the walls. I helped deliver the baby. Gravid carry is out of fashion on the Sixth, but let me assure you: I didn’t smell Anastasia’s burning flesh when the first Reverend Daughter was born.”

Unconsciously, Paul’s hand drifted to their head, to the charred inch of hair that still remained. “That came earlier, didn’t it? When Anastasia and her cavalier attempted Grand Lysis?”

“Samael,” said Pyrrha distantly. “I called him Sam.” Then: “I wasn’t there. They only invited John as their witness.”

“But?” Paul prompted.

For the first time, they sounded expectant. Engaged. Their eyes bored into hers before Pyrrha even registered that she’d turned to look at them directly. A low coil of dread was rising in her stomach.

“There’s no way you could have known that,” she said.

Paul grimaced. “I see why she described this explanation as ‘complicated,’” they said, mostly to themselves. Then, louder: “If we consider that the River has two shores—”

They faltered. Entirely by accident, Paul had stumbled upon the crack in their own shell. They halted in their tracks, and as Pyrrha watched, their expression flooded with despair.

“Oh, God,” they breathed, looking perfectly wretched. “Dulcinea.”

They sank to the ground as if their legs could no longer support their weight. Paul’s hands rose to Camilla’s charred hair again, but this time, they tugged. Hard.

Paul was neither Camilla nor Palamedes, but Pyrrha, damn her, had a soft spot for them still. She sank to the floor beside them. She said: “Tell me what’s wrong.”

Those strange new eyes were bright with tears, but Paul’s gaze was as piercing as ever when they asked: “Pyrrha, did they ever tell you about Dulcie?”

Pyrrha shook her head, even though Paul’s tone indicated they already knew the answer. She’d allowed the Sixth to keep their secrets as they floored it towards self-destruction. Too many secrets, maybe.

Paul screwed their eyes shut. They drew their knees to their chest and hid their face, rocking ever so slightly. It was the most emblematic gesture of Camilla or Palamedes, singular, that she had seen since their fusion. Pyrrha almost wanted to look away, to give them their privacy — but if she wasn’t there for them now, who knew when they’d next open up.

“Right,” Paul said eventually. “To answer your question, I need to tell you about Dulcinea Septimus, the first woman that Camilla and Palamedes loved.”

Pyrrha listened silently as Paul laid themselves bare. They detailed the years of letters. The misguided marriage proposal. The rejection they felt at Canaan House when Dulcinea treated them like strangers.

Despite herself, she could see how it all culminated in Palamedes’s radical thanergeric fission, even as Paul shuddered and fell silent when they reached that part. The wound was still raw, even with the new composition of their soul, and she didn’t think that was solely Hect’s influence.

It didn’t surprise Pyrrha that the Sixth had fallen in single-minded love with the same woman. She would be a hypocrite, otherwise.

Even now, Pyrrha would struggle to characterize the relationship between Camilla and Palamedes. They were necromancer and cavalier, of course; but a love like theirs eclipsed the ordinary bounds of the term. Typical categorizations of ‘romantic’ and ‘platonic’ no longer applied.

In the end, she thought a Pre-Resurrection poet said it best: Love, to them, was like a religion. It was terrifying.

And then there was all the grief that Camilla and Palamedes shared. Pyrrha was privy to it, but she’d been blinded by the tragedy in front of her. She’d assumed that all of their mourning was for their other half, unaware of the other loss preceding it.

Pyrrha wrapped an arm around Paul’s shoulders. They shuddered but allowed the gesture. Their eyes were very far away.

“Dulcinea sounded like one hell of a woman,” said Pyrrha eventually. “I’m surprised they never mentioned her.”

Even as she spoke the last sentence, it rang false. It wasn’t that Pyrrha was naïve; she knew Camilla and Palamedes had lived a life before New Rho. But whenever they were together, the three of them skirted around its edges in furtive little stops and starts. Hell, a week ago, Pyrrha hadn’t known that Camilla had a sister.

Paul didn’t comment on her misstep. Their voice was low and dull when they said: “We failed her.”

Pyrrha didn’t think much of the pronoun. In the scant few hours that she’d known Paul, she’d known them to switch between I, we, and they near-interchangeably.

“There was nothing you could’ve done,” she said gently. “You said it yourself, Dulcinea was dead before Cytherea got to Canaan House.”

Paul shook their head. “No, Dve. You don’t understand. I failed Dulcinea, just by virtue of my existence. Palamedes met her when he was battling for the soul of Naberius Tern.”

This should’ve been impossible, but Pyrrha stayed silent. Neither Camilla nor Palamedes were liars, and Paul’s shoulders were shaking beneath her arm.

Their face was stony and emotionless, but again, their cheeks were wet with silent tears. Paul reached out for Pyrrha’s hands, taking one between their own.

“Dulcinea isn’t in the River anymore, and she won’t be ever again,” they whispered. “Palamedes promised to find her on the shore, but I am Palamedes now, and Camilla, too. I’m the sum of their souls — I’m the sum of their love — and I can submerge myself in the River but never cross. Merely by loving her, I added to her torments. Indelibly and irrevocably.”

What the hell could she say to a statement like that? Words wouldn’t suffice, not really; so Pyrrha made a terrible decision instead. She tilted up their chin with her free hand, allowing Paul to keep the other.

Paul’s eyes were wide, but they nodded, granting their permission. Pyrrha lightly touched her forehead to theirs, and they closed their eyes.

“Welcome to the horrors of love, kid,” said Pyrrha, not unkindly, and she kissed them on the mouth.

[felidaefatigue]

OH OHHHHH fucked up tlt thought. potential tw cause doing a trans to some genders + talking pregnancy. this absolutely is not a theory or speculation I just had a thought and wanted to run with it. a river bubble au at best if you will.

samael as afab and the chain of samael is 100% his pelvis and combo it with my "john sabotaged their lyctorhood cause anastasia samael was pregnant n john thought he was in the right to prevent that sacrifice and the Anastasia keeps the pelVIS to use as a WEAPON to beat the shit out of god with the part of her cavalier that held the child god killed him fOR aaaa i love horrible morbid character torture im sorry

[mayasaura]

So I was looking back at old unanswered questions like why Samuel and Anastasia were the ones that didn't join in on the ascension madhouse that took everyone else. I raise the speculation that it was a parent child dynamic. Everyone else were siblings, friends, lovers. Which are more equal in terms of sacrifice if either side sacrifices themselves as opposed to how child sacrificing for a parent doesn't work while parent for child does. Just a different dynamic.

Yeeess!! I love the idea that Samael was Anastasia's kid.

Like you said, it's a different vibe. And it's one of the only major relationships that isn't represented by any known necrocav pair. Plus it would so so beautifully ironic if the Ninth were founded on the refusal to sacrifice a child.

[adolin]

do you have any anastasia thoughts/theories?

Some! First of all, I firmly believe that she was hot just based on vibes. This is very important to me.

Various thoughts / headcanons, in no particular order:

She was the first of the Second Gen disciples, and arrived at Canaan House before Cyrus and Valancy.

I’m absolutely never ever letting go of the fact that she created Teacher by Frankestening together a bunch of souls. (Terrifying! And hot). Also, her  research notes are the reason why the Reverend Parents were able to make sure Harrow was born a necromancer.

I think she was born on the Eight! Because her work focused on souls, but also because the fact that the Eight fucking hates that the Ninth exists takes on a delicious ironic tinge in this case.

I think Samael wasn’t the father of her child, but I don’t feel super strongly about it. Also, I’m neutral on the theory that she was pregnant when she tried to ascend, but again I wouldn’t mind it at all if it turned out to be true!

The child who suceeded her as a Tombkeeper was born after she left Canaan House but ngl I like that theory going around that Samael may have been her son. I don’t think it’s super likely but it’d be cool if it was.

Theory corner! This is more wild speculation that vibes.

I wrote a long-ish post on what I think happened during Anastasia’s failed Lyctoral ascension here (tl;dr: she tapped into Alecto’s power and backfired /IMO) and I stand by most of it except I think there’s a nonzero chance Anastasia may have made her attempt even before G1deon and Pyrrha did.

Another theory I’m fond of: I think she walled herself into the Tomb so that the thanergy from her death would add an extra boost to the wards. John tells Harrow that it’s not true that the wards have to be maintained since he set them himself, but I think he might be unaware that Anastasia messed with them after he’d already left the system, years after they were set up.

(To be clear, I think Anastasia walked into the tomb, walled it in and killed herself for the thanergy boost when she was Crux-aged or close to it, not that she pulled a Cristabel immolated herself on Alecto’s coffin)

My wild guess is that she added a failsafe that would trap in anyone who entered the inner chamber if they weren’t of the Tombkeeper line. It wouldn’t trap anyone who can travel through the River, ofc, but I think that if Wake had been able to open the Tomb she would never have gotten back out.

[theaologies]

If Harrow is descended from Anastasia what is the likeliness that she’s descended from Anastasia and Samael both.

I know there’s the thought that when Pyrrha mentions painting a nursery on the Ninth it could have been the nursery that all of the kids died in but what if the nursery was for Anastasia and Samael’s child.

There is so much taboo over a necromancer and cavalier marrying- especially, it seems, on the Ninth. Harrow expresses her dismay over Abigail and Magnus being married but ultimately dismisses it as being okay, specifically because they were married before Magnus became her cavalier.

Obviously the taboo probably stems largely from the lyctoral process being fucked up and it would be fucked up extremely for your spouse to have to die for you and you consume their soul but what if it’s even more so because of what happened to Anastasia and Samael. What if they got it all correct, a la Camilla and Palamedes, but at the last moment Anastasia panicked because she couldn’t bring herself to kill her soulmate- which lead to John having to kill Samael or risk losing them both.

We know they weren’t performing the eight fold word under duress, as the other lyctors and cavs had, because Augustine notes this and brings up how he could never understand how they didn’t get it right, after they had spent so much time studying it. However, we don’t know if they were attempting to do what John and Alecto had done or what Cam and Pal ended up doing.

I can’t stop thinking about Alecto, turning to Anastasia’s bones, and expressing her sorrow over what happened to Samael.

Anyway I love tragedy and also the idea that Harrow is descended from both would be Lyctor and Cavalier.

[iviarellereads]

Nona the Ninth, Epilogue

(Curious what I'm doing here? Read this post! For detail on The Locked Tomb coverage and the index, read this one! Like what you see? Send me a Ko-Fi.)

(First House icon) In which some things never change.

(Before I continue, go back to the Guest List, the poem that follows it. "You held aloft the sword. / I still love y")

When the rock that had been made meat awoke in a body, it cried aloud, saying—You.

It breaks the chains on its wrists and ankles, the wrists and ankles breaking with the chains. The chains around its neck collapse when it lifts its head and cries, so reminiscent of our dear and only just departed, "Ah, ah, ah."(1)

One of the children(2) seems to offer violence, raising her weapon, but "the black-eyed infant"(3) chides her, and they banter.(4) Alecto rises from the altar, and hits Ianthe with her empty broken hand, forgetting the sword in the other. Ianthe isn't dead, but thrown into the water "like a detestable thing."(5)

And many skeletons emerged from the bones of the bier, and from the walls of the tomb, but when the sword was raised, they fled. When the broken feet touched the stone around the tomb, they were mended, and when the broken hands raised the sword they were mended also, but the body itself was not fully awake, and stumbled on the steps at the bier, crying, John, John; but did not fall.

Some dead children on the shore are "striving loudly" with the living children, and Alecto doesn't know what happened when she hears a voice call her name, and she remembers, and wakes fully.

And Alecto said, Pyrrha, he laid me down as an appeasement to them; he fed you to them as an appeasement to them; but he has never appeased me, and now all he has done was teach me how to die.(6) But Pyrrha did not hear above the noise.

Alecto remembers a vow, and turns back to the other child next to her, raising her sword… but her black eyes awaken another memory, one she had once dreamed, and she stays her sword.

Harrow says she's loved Alecto her whole life, with her whole soul and her whole strength, and she is ready to be destroyed, for she loves still.(7)

Alecto was angry, and raised her up, and kissed her. The child did not cry out, though blood fell from her lips and tongue, and she was wounded sore. For Alecto knew not how to kiss, except such as it involved the mouth and teeth. And Alecto said to her, Why are you not appeased? That is how meat loves meat.(8)

But the blood makes Alecto understand, and she confirms with Harrow that she is the tomb-keeper's line, unbroken. Alecto says she's "very sorry about Samael"(9) and when Harrow doesn't answer, Alecto continues that she swore a vow of service to Anastasia, a favour,(10) which now passes to Harrow as her heir. Harrow protests that she is tainted and lowly, but Alecto kneels and offers her sword, placing Harrow's hand on the blade to seal the vow again in blood, which makes Harrow weak but she doesn't swoon.

Which strength pleased Alecto, who said: Notwithstanding, I offer you my service. To which a voice on the opposite side of the shore was raised, exceeding wroth, and Alecto heard it shout in a very great shout: Get in line, thou big slut.(11) * * * Afterward Alecto went down to the ship(12) and stood before John, purposing to travel through the River, and was grieved to find it yet dead.(13) John was asleep, and not in his garments, unshaved and still drunken. The child who accepted the blade and thereupon fainted with hunger and thirst was thrown over one of Alecto’s arms,(14) a deep sleep like death upon her, and in Alecto’s other hand was the iron sword. And so Alecto took that iron sword, and with one hand pierced John’s chest with it, even to the heart. At which John awakened and said, Annabel, good morning.(15)

=====

(1) It has been brought to my attention that this, coming from Alecto (and previously from Nona, but this is the first time it becomes truly referential) could very well be part of the bridge from Barbie Girl, by Aqua, the so-controversial song. "Come on barbie, let's go party" "Ah-ah-ah-yeah." (2) For they are all children, all her children in a way, but none can hold an inch's length of life to her. (3) Harrow, awake and returned. (4) I'm not just pasting all of this as direct quotes, but referenced memes I see: two-halves dead is hard to source but it feels familiar and not just from my prior read of this book; "then perish" is a classic ye olde Tumblr meme. (5) I love to see Ianthe succeed but I also love to see her treated this way? I just love to see her. I love all the messy women Muir included in her story. So much. (6) The resonance with Nona and the way her last week was spent learning to die. I just. (7) I find this absolutely fascinating as the fulcrum of the scene. John's love is possessive, dominant, commanding, and Alecto grows more and more angry with him and his way. Harrow's love is open, an offering of everything she has and is, and Alecto stays her blade. There's a thesis in here, once AtN is released, I just know it. (8) This book is so quotable, I swear. (9) Here come the theories about Samael being one of Anastasia's children. We now have confirmation that Harrow is of her genetic line, so, the baby room from two chapters ago, that Pyrrha painted mint green. But, some people out there have assembled very compelling evidence that Samael may also have been Anastasia's child, hence the sorrowful apology… and possibly the vow of service. (10) And so we come to how Alecto the First becomes… Alecto the Ninth, coming hopefully in 2024. (11) Kiriona-Gideon, never ever change. <3<3 (12) Down to what ship? How did she travel? (13) The River is DEAD? How and why and what--- THE RIVER IS DEAD?! Long live the Tower, it seems. (14) So Alecto brought Harrow along just to… hang out in her spare arm. Right. Sure. (15) And that beginning poem again. Only, did he really send Kiriona to wake her? ALECTO THE NINTH WHEN?!

But really. That's all.

Hell Will Break Loose In ALECTO THE NINTH

[lady-harrowhark]

Re: Samael being anastasia's son, if her feelings towards John may have been leaning towards some kind of betrayal as with the other lyctors- idk whether she would have the contextual knowledge But, samael meaning poison of god would be a Really Interesting name to give your child...

Ofc depends on when Samael would've been born but I'm very attached to Anastasia playing a kind of long game dismantling of John through her attempt at perfect lyctorhood, creation of the ninth house, worship of alecto etc

Sorry for the long ask hope its not unintelligible!

It is not unintelligible at all. In fact, it is very intelligible :) and tbh I am the last person you should apologize to about length or coherence. I mean. You saw that post lmao.

I definitely agree with you - if there wasn't already resentment before Samael's death, I'd be surprised if there wasn't any after, even if she outwardly kept it locked down. Especially if she was close with Alecto, which I suspect she was based on the fact that we have Alecto asking for her in the moments leading up to her being imprisoned in the tomb. We don't know the details leading up to that, but if there was some kind of conflict between John and Alecto (which the other Lyctors may have been embroiled in as well), Anastasia might have been on Alecto's side, so to speak. Especially if she was piecing together what was going on, I can imagine that losing both Samael and Alecto to John's shenanigans would certainly be grounds to start plotting ways to undermine him. There are so many unknowns about the timeline of events that could completely shift things in any given direction, though.

I'm really really curious to learn more about her and the founding of the Ninth and their veneration of the Tomb/Alecto... I think one of the pieces that really gets missed in a lot of analysis around the religious themes in the series is that John is explicitly not God. He's a man who has positioned himself as God, and has let others treat him as such, either via his passivity or through active encouragement. I think we're going to see a lot more exploration of Alecto as the true God figure of the series in AtN; we've already started down that path with Harrow at the end of NtN. I suspect Harrow had been piecing this together prior to the events of GtN, and if Anastasia was the one setting up this entire culture and religious tradition centering on the Tomb... well. I'm very curious to find out what she knew.

[toooceanblue]

Has anyone put together a specific timeline as far as when Anastasia and Samael attempted Lyctorhood, when the ninth house was founded, when Alecto was locked away, and when the nursery was built (presumably Anastasia's child?)