#also if you're not queer you were especially not queerbaited

[theuserformerlyknownaslockwie]

while we're at it if everyone is openly queer you can't have been queerbaited hun it's just called disappointment

[smartie-chan]

Long rambling incoming in 3,2,1...

I know that I'm not really any kind of big celebrity in the Stobotnik world. The only thing I've got going for myself is the fact that I've been there since the very beginning, with my one 'I'm so proud of this community' Meme getting a like or two every full moon or so. It's also been a hot second since I've written a Stobotnik Fic, and yet, I've never really left the fandom. Far from it.

So boooooy, when that trailer dropped, let's just say, I've been going wild! That being said, I have calmed down a tiny bit and woud like to share my two cents with you all.

Especially since, considering how gay the trailer was, I've noticed people kind of leaning into either of two camps.

Team 1: They might actually make it canon y'all. This is not a drill!!!!

or

Team 2: This is the most intense queerbaiting I've ever seen, but fuck it, take my money!

Now, I will tell you where I'm standing at the end of things, but let's talk facts before I do, shall we?

I know Jim & Lee were having fun on set during Movie 1, but I doubt either of them expected us all to get quite this feral over these two evil man. In fact, I'm not sure what their plans were for Agent Stone in general. I'd love to believe that they saw us freaking the fuck out and decided to make Stone a big part of the sequels because of that. But then I look at the Robotnik Mushroom Planet scene and think: They gave this man an actual stone to hold onto, going so far as to carve Stone's face into said stone, just so he could pretend he wasn't alone and Stone was still with him. Clearly, Robotinik was never willing to admit that he cared, admit that there could be someone who he had allowed to get close, given that there had never been anyone before who had cared enough about HIM, so why should HE make the mistake of caring about someone else either. Cause, you know, it's easier to pretend there's noone than admit that there could be, just to realise that you were wrong actually. And yet. Despite all that he held onto Stone the stone, like his life depended on it. I love that scene because it's hella gay, but I love it even more because it's amazing writing, giving us the payoff for the forshadwed "I won't miss you when you're gone" scene from way back when. They didn't have to do that. And yet they made that choice. Included that moment for a reason. So I'd love to think that even back then, they were very willing to play with the dynamic of them going forward.

Clearly things and plans changed After Movie 1 , after we saw these two and made Stobotnik as big as it is. I'll talk about movie 2 in a hot second, but let's return to the way they promoted 2 first. Cause THAT was CLEARLY queerbaiting ... or was it... ? For you see, they knew what they were doing, they knew how to get us all excited , posting this on Valentine, letting Sonic make a heart, drawing the whole thing in a romantic light, going so far as to include bi-lighting in the trailer. On top of the latte art that was designed to get us queers to show up. I saw that art, freaked out and showed it to all of my friends. One friend, let's call her Barbara, smiled at me, like you smile at somone who still believes in the Easter Bunny and told me she hoped I knew they were playing with me. In fact, she was kind of dissapointed I allowed them to get to me so much. And I KNEW. I knew they were trying to bait me. I'm not stupid. This isn't the first time I've been queerbaited after all. And it won't be the last time, that's for sure. And yet, I didn't care because I loved that they acknowledged us. Loved that they were willing to give us something, even if it wasn't actually real and they were clearly NEVER going to include actual ship latte art of Stone & Robotnik together. Cause that would be gay. Haha. And those two totally weren't gay. Ain't I right? :)) Queer rep has gotten more common and yet, so has queerbaiting. Cause nowadays the chance that something could be actually made canon is way more likely than it was, let's say, 15 years ago. So companies love to use that, love playing into that even more. Like, do I have to remind you all what they were doing for the Deadpool & Wolverine movie marketing ??? Just saying.

As much as I love Lee and as much as we're loosing our marbels every time he as much as winks in our direction, I'll not be using any of his posts as evidence for the points I'm about to make further down. Cause, you know, at the end of the day, he's just one of us as well. Another shipper. A hella supportive shipper who may or may not have had a hand in the way he portrayed Stone, but still. Love you Lee. Thank you for having our back!

So now. Movie 2. And the godforsaken Maid Dress Scene. I hope we are all proud of ourselves. Cause that scene was our doing. I promise you, promise you!!! they didn't have that planned before the fandom happend. They saw us and were like "You can have this. As a treat :3". Personally I didn't freak out as much as the rest of you all, but I'm glad you guys had fun. It was a gift to us after all, so I guess it's fine if we enjoyed it. Jokes aside though, let's get back to what movie 2 did, even though they may or may not have realised it at the time. As in: They made Stobotnik canon. What do you mean by canon, Smartie?????, you might ask. And I'll answer, cause it's simple: I mean canon, as in canon. Yes, that's right. Stobotnik has been canon for a while... or... at least 50% of it. Let's get back to the Latte, shall we? Back then I thought they were making fun of us. Queerbaiting at it's finest. And then the movie happend and Stone confessed his love right then and there for the world to see, basically drawing fanart into Robotnik's caffe for who knows how long and Robotnik? That stupid -3000 IQ genius knew. He fucking knew!! Has always known and was either unwilling to read between the lines or mistook the affection for simple loyalty. Not-Spoiler: It's the later by the way, because we have that deleted scene. That beautiful deleted scene. But let's get back to the art for a second. Because I was basically dying in my seat. And I didn't think people were talking about it enough, cause it was the proof, not that stupid maid outfit that was simply put in as a joke that audiences were supposed to laugh at. But this. This! The whole scene were Stone was lovesick and heartbroken, drawing art of his lost non-lover, the way the life returned to his eyes the second said man returned, on top of literally all of him for the rest of the movie prooved one thing to me: Agent Stone was in love with Dr. Robotnik. It's clear he's never said so out loud, and for a good reason, but he didn't have to. It was so obvious anyone with an IQ lower than 299 could have seen. Just a shame that that one 300 IQ guy couldn't. So now, deleted scene time. Woopwoop. :P Recall how they had planned to make Stone even more in love and heart-eyed - JESUS CHRIST MY GUY - but went for an alternative scene instead? In case you aren't familiar with the scene, it's basically Stone telling Robotnik how he's followed his guide-lines, making the Stone Comic Canon, how he's made sure noone touched his babies, how he's known he'd return, how he's waited for him all this time cause he knew KNEW he'd come back and for a second there Robotnik doesn't know what to say. He looks that man in the eyes and for a split second he wonders, questions, and then... then he's scared. Scared of what that could mean. Scared that he could actually mean something to someone and he panics and decides to use violence to laugh it off, to refelect, to pretend that in that moment, he didn't actually feel something. That Stone didn't make him feel ... vulnerable. Because at that point, he cares too. He's not ready to admit it, at least not without having to joke about it. But he does. He does!! And the thought of it being mutual scares him. Probably more than anything ever has. Because if he allows this, this feeling to settle and bloom, he's got to admit that this, whatever it is, has the power to destroy and hurt him. And he can't do that. Maybe not again. Maybe not ever. Not now. Not now that he's what... 40? and has found peace with the fact that he'll die alone.

I know they were leaning into Stobotnik a lot, but they also... kind of didn't, following the natural consequences of the stuff they had set up in the prior movie, allowing Robotnik to go through an actual character arc. It's subtle, and he's still and asshole - always wil be - but that doesn't change the fact that his arc still exists and is actually very well done. Stone doesn't really have that obvious of an arc. Because it's not really much of an arc, we're just learning more about him, fleshing out his character. The only thing we know for certain is, that he adores and loves Robotnik and that he's willing to betray everyone and everything for him. Even if Robotnik never loves him back. He's accepted that, as long as he's alowed a place at his side.

And now, my fellow shippers, movie 3. Or rather, pre-movie 3. And the much discussed question: Are we getting queerbaited? Well, that depends how you define queerbaiting, doesn't it? Is it queerbaiting if it's unrequited love? Cause that's our current standpoint. Stone has found his doctor, nursed him back to health, lived with him, been by his side for months (years) and the only thing that is standing in their way now is: Robotnik's feelings. They have great build-up, put this man on a path, shown us how he's grown and now all that's left is to see, how they'll decide to finish his story. If I look at all that's happend up to this point, from a writing/writer stand-point, I'd say, that it would make sense for Robotnik to admit, that he cares. Cause that has been his arc, his journey. To admit that yes: He doesn't care about humanity, but he does care about Stone. Has for a very long while in fact. Be that platonic, or romantic. Doing literally anything else would not make sense at that point and would actually be an insult to their own work. And their writing has been pretty solid, so I'm confident we will get something. Especially since... I HAVE seen the leaks. Now, storyboards are just that. Something from early development, something that could change. Which is why I'd normally ignore them.... iiiiiiiif it weren't for that one line from the trailer. That one. fucking. line. That made me realise: Holy shit, those mad lads are doing it. They are finishing Robotnik's arc. That's when I understood why Team 1 was loosing their marbels. Because,

SPOILER!!!!! he is going to admi it. He is going to admit it to himself, and he's gonna do something so wild and crazy it scares me more than you understand. The only question is. Will he surive to tell the tale? And if he does, will he be brave enough to share that admission with Stone?

END OF SPOILER

I don't have links to the storyboard. In retrospect, I should have saved them. But what's done is done. Not that I cod delete the knowledge of what I've seen even if I tried. People seem hesitant to tell people all they have seen, cause those of us who have, and know the Sonic 2 story seem to have a good understanding of what and when that spoiler is taking place. And especially what outcome it seems to be leading into. But, if anyone asks, I am willing to share what it was I saw. If you really wanna know. If you are truly sure.

That being said. How do I feel about Stobotnik? I don't think we're getting a kiss. But I think (and hope) we're gonna get a moment. A moment of Robotnik being open, of him sharing that Stone means somethig to him. They even have the potential to include a joke here, of Stone perhaps attempting to hug Robotnik, for him to allow it for 3 seconds or so, only for him to punch Stone and say something along the lines of: "Okay, that's enough." You know, something close to the High Five moment, just THIS TIME they actually do the high five (or hug). You can have the feels and the joke. It's still Robotnik after all. It's what I'm hoping for, actually, cause I don't think Robotnik is ready for THAT admission quite yet. A hug though? That I could see.

I know we still have to fight against being exploited and played with, but that being said, I don't think love confessions have to always be that huge thing, that clashing of tongues and body parts. They can also be soft and quite. A moment of vulnerability and trust. Of openness. In fact, if Robotnik were to allow Stone a hug, it would be even more impactful than a kiss could ever be. He's hugging Gerald in the trailer, so they have shown me that they are not afraid to make this man hug.

It gives me hope. And it - and the leaks - are the reason why I'm Team 1. I think we could actually get canon Stobotnik you all. And I'm so hyped you don't understand. Let's see what Stobotnik marketing they are going to feed us over the next few months. I, for one, am looking forward to it. ^-^

Live long and prosper 🥚🖤🪨

[peachjagiya]

I don't think this Talk about tae queerbating comes from him beeing supportive. It comes from some people not liking how he mentioned/ talked about JK in chapter 2.

i agree that it was a little bit obvious that he purposfully was mentioning jk, but its makes sense since they were releasing at the same time.

I dont see any problem with this, since a lot of members who were putting music out around the same time were present in the others Promo (tiktoks, e.g. Just now hobi and Jin )

The only moment which i wasnt the biggest fan of, was tae congratulating JK and jm on their Nr. 1 on hot 100. This was so long after after they got it to be 100% without ulerior motive. I get that he is a Artist and that is his Work and that he has his own goals, but i wish he didnt say it like that

I'm sorry but this is a disingenuous and context-free take on what happened with the Hot100 congratulations.

I had to look it up because I couldn't find what you meant at first.

I found it in the end. Layover release date appearance on Melon Radio's Hybe Labels show episode 34:

https://x.com/seokjinbit/status/1700035006272569401?t=tezC_KS5utqz-G2FgwHjPw&s=19

That is the audio of him congratulating them.

Here's the Korean subs:

지민이와 전국 에는 빌보드 핫 101 위까지 하면서 많은 축하 를 받게 됐습니다. 이아!

Here's the English translation:

Jiminie and Jungkookie received a lot of congratulations when they reached number 1 on Billboard Hot 100. eeyaa.

This was 8th September 2023.

Jungkook hit Billboard hot100 with Seven on 24th July and Jimin earlier with Like Crazy on 8th April.

"so long after they got it" is actually just under a month and a half for Jungkook and 5 months after Jimin. It's pretty dang close to Jungkook's hot100 #1.

(if he hadn't mentioned Jimin, we would be having a conversation about that instead because we're always on the lookout for ways in which Tae is wrong.)

But actually... to be super sure, let's see the full context of what he said. I found this video with a transcript but no audio:

Here's the pertinent bit in context:

This is the first time I'm releasing a solo album thus I became the last soloist of BTS. Until now, all the other members have released solo albums in their own styles, showcasing their charm and showcasing their own music. Wow! Jimin and Jungkook received congratulations when they topped the Billboard Hot100 chart.

So... his comment about them reaching Hot100 is perfectly in line with what he was talking about. He's gone solo, everybody else has gone solo, some of them got Hot100 number ones even. Where's the problem here? It completely explains why the congratulations happened at that time. It wasn't a live congratulations, it was a contextual one.

i agree that it was a little bit obvious that he purposfully was mentioning jk

So this overreaction to a very very very innocuous Tae comment and also this "purposefully" mentioning JK comment... Call me crazy but I feel like you aren't here in good faith.

Hope you're sending the same asks to Yoongi blogs for "purposefully" mentioning Jimin a lot and vice versa?

Tae is JK's closest member. JK is Tae's. Not even a debate. That's why Tae talks about him. It's why JK talks about Tae in HIS interviews. It's why Yoongi talks about Jimin and Jimin talks about Yoongi. Because it's how their life actually is.

Or is it only "purposefully" and with "ulterior motive" when Tae does it?

Finally, real people can't queerbait. Especially not in nations where there is limited power behind the queer voice. I'm gonna keep saying it. 👍

[rainbowsky]

Hi rainbowsky! I'm a new-ish (autumn 2023) Yizhan fan - it's been so much fun to explore and read everything available, your blog included! I really enjoy your opinions and insights. I have a question and a request. Question: When CQL first started airing, what were people saying about the relationship between WWX and LZ in the show, and about the actors playing them? Did the CP start right away? Request: Then later on, when the BTS started appearing (when was that - after the show finished airing, right?), what were people saying about the real interactions between the two actors? Were people shocked? Amazed? Even more curious? I can imagine social media was on fire! But I'd like to hear from someone who "lived" through it in real time. Please give me a description of what it was like - especially what your thoughts and feeling were as you saw it happening. I wish I could have been there! Thank you!

Hi Blbrave! Thanks so much, I'm glad you're enjoying my blog!

This is all a very, very long time ago, but I'll do my best to share what I can remember.

Actually, the CP started before the show began airing. The supertopics were opened during filming in 2018. I think this was inevitable, given that the series is based on a BL story. Of course fans of the novel will go into all of this with an eye toward the two characters and, by extension, GG and DD.

Similarly, as the show was airing of course there were a large number of viewers who knew it was a BL and viewed it as a BL at that time, even though it was being billed as a martial brotherhood series. There was a lot of analysis from fans trying to spot various ways that the production team managed to get around censorship and signal the queer romance between WWX and LWJ.

Others have done far better, more comprehensive analysis of all that than I could ever do, but it's so long ago I don't know where those posts might have gone. Some of this was discussed in my post about queerbaiting, so you can look there for more info.

As I said in that post, one of their smartest ways of highlighting the queer relationship was to downplay romance between the straight characters. We never see a straight couple doing something that we don’t also see LWJ and WWX doing. Yanli's wedding happens off camera, yet we see LWJ and WWX do their bows on camera. There’s never a kiss or any kind of PDA between straight characters, yet we see LWJ and WWX in each other’s arms throughout the series.

We got a gay kiss:

We got gay sex:

There was also the headband repeatedly being described as the domain of only family and spouses, and the various ways they connected it with WWX. WWX grabbing it when he was possessing the paperman, and also at one point being tied to LWJ by the wrist with the headband - all of this signalling that WWX was a spousal figure for LWJ.

There was the drunk scene with LWJ giving WWX chickens (a wedding tradition in China).

And many more examples I won't get into.

There were many of those types of things in the series, and they were discussed enthusiastically at the time. However, I don't think there were many bystanders who made those connections. It was primarily fans of the books/show (i.e. those who appreciated it as a BL story and not as a bromance/friendship story) who saw and discussed those hints.

I know the idea that anyone could be so oblivious to the gay subtext throughout the story that they miss the queerness entirely is hard to get one's head around, but straight viewers usually just see WWX and LWJ as best friends and sworn martial brothers. The show could never have been made or aired if that wasn't the case.

In fact, newer fans might not be aware that there was a lot of controversy during filming because of leaked early attempts to create a straight romance between Wei Wuxian and Wen Qing. Some relationship-building scenes between them were filmed, and at one point in the BTS GG is heard complaining about the straight romance and saying that all those scenes should be deleted.

In the production team's defense, there was doubt at the time about whether the show could air given its source material as a BL novel. They likely had investors and backers pressuring them to make sure that the story was unambiguously straight.

Fans of the novel made a massive uproar about it, threatening to boycott the series. The backlash was so extreme that it became a bigger threat to the success of the show, and the straight romance was killed. We all owe a lot to those agitators! 😅

The BTS

The BTS clips were first discussed in an Untamed press conference (that section of the interview starts at around 36:30). The producer said that in the future some of the behind-the-scenes moments would be shared. GG and DD exchanged a glance and looked extremely uncomfortable with it.

A lot of turtles find that clip funny, and laugh about what GG and DD might 'have to hide', but I have never understood how fans can find GG and DD's discomfort funny.

It might surprise some newer turtles to hear that there were moments where GG and DD appeared to be uncomfortable with the BTS, but there were.

Another moment happened in an interview where GG and DD were asked to explain a BTS scene of the two of them in the boat, where GG is lying in DD's lap. DD turns to the interviewer with a shocked and displeased look on his face and says, "They released this?"

There were other moments as well, but I haven't kept a comprehensive record of all that. This happened long before I clued in on how quickly clips can disappear in this fandom.

I believe that it is totally normal to have mixed feelings about the BTS, and I believe GG and DD are no exception to that. No doubt they enjoy some of the clips and feel uncomfortable about some of them, just like many turtles (myself included).

There were official BTS clips released during promo, but the unofficial BTS clips didn't come until later. I talked in more detail about the unofficial BTS and how they came to be released here.

The unofficial clips began being released by fansites in the fall of 2020. It would be hard to overstate how different the atmosphere around them was to what it is now. Now it's quite common to find BTS clips all over the place, both in C-social media and on international sites like YouTube and Instagram.

However, back in 2020 they were extremely hard to get ahold of, and sharing them outside of where they were initially released was strictly forbidden and frowned upon by fans. In fact, if you dig back through my 2020 posts I'm sure you'll find many posts where I admonish people not to share the BTS clips, and where I bitch about people sharing them without authorization. I also answered a lot of asks about these issues at the time (just one example).

Times have changed a lot, and now everyone is sharing them all very freely without any concerns.

The situation was a lot different back then:

GG and DD had gained a tremendous amount of popularity from the show, but their reputations and careers were not yet fully established and secure.

227 was still an active concern that was still making news and still impacting GG's life directly. He had not yet recovered from any of it and was still mostly lying low. He was constantly being attacked and antis were constantly out to get him.

The Untamed was still fresh and current, and being discussed regularly in the media. Because filming was still fairly recent, what happened during filming would still run the risk of impacting GG and DD's lives and careers.

Fans were coming under very close scrutiny because of 227 and other fandom-related scandals. The government was starting to crack down heavily on fandom culture.

This was all uncharted territory. No one knew how the BTS might be received, or how it might impact GG and DD. Fans were very freaked out about the possibility of anything compromising getting leaked and harming the boys.

No doubt fansites were also worried about how fans might respond to some of the releases, and wanted to ensure they didn't upset or anger fans, or stir up more excitement than could be safely contained within the fandom.

All of this contributed to a climate of extreme caution and secrecy around the release of BTS clips.

We never knew when one might be released, and when they were released they were typically only put online for a few minutes, then deleted. This was all done in an effort to limit the exposure of these clips primarily to turtles who have GGDD's best interests in mind.

The clips were heavily watermarked and overlaid with visual and audio curses that 'reuploaders must die!' ('banyun biss', which I'm sure most of you have encountered in some of the clips you've seen).

Early clips were heavily watermarked.

Those who missed out were out of luck. It was extremely socially unacceptable to re-share clips once they'd been deleted. Those who missed out would have to rely on recaps and transcripts from those who had seen the clips. Fans took to staying up all hours watching and waiting for a release.

Back in those days people tried to save every clip they could, hoarding them greedily. Turtles' phones were filling up with large video files. It's funny to think about now, because the clips are everywhere and so easy to find these days, but back then it was a whole Thing.

The initial releases were sporadic and quite tame as fansites dipped their toes in the water of how all this would be received. Gradually over time clips became more frequent and stayed up longer, and some of the more salacious stuff began being released. Those clips were often accompanied by hilarious intro images.

(For those who don't get it, it's the PornHub logo).

Of course all of the clips were heavily discussed as they came out, and a clearer picture of GG and DD's relationship and of their experience of filming began to take shape over time. Some of the fake rumors (such as the 49 fake candies and the CPN that GG designed a racing suit for DD) were gradually proved to be true as these clips were released. However, that was mostly confined to fandom circles.

There were occasionally times when these clips or their content would cross over into the mainstream and start trending on Weibo. In many of those cases, the hotsearches would be bought and pushed by antis of GG and DD who want to see them cancelled. At those times turtles would jump into action to wash those topics and replace them with mundane, unrelated content.

There were fan theories and fake rumors about GG and DD's reaction to the clips. Sometimes when new clips were released GG and DD would be seen online and turtles assumed they were watching them. Of course, considering the clips featured them, it's highly likely that they did eagerly await releases just like the rest of us.

I suspect that it was likely a mixed bag for them. Some clips might have really stressed them out either upon initial release or after reactions began to emerge, while others likely made them laugh and feel nostalgic about filming.

A large percentage of BXG light banners and slogans came directly out of the BTS, some of which you can see GG and DD discussing in LRLG rumors.

Dumplings, rice noodles, 3+2 biscuits (cr @knivescharade in this post), discussed in this LRLG rumor.

There were definitely a few scandals and close calls that came out of the unofficial BTS, and solos and antis frequently tried to use them against GG and DD and tried to spin negative narratives about their relationship using disingenuous takes and edits of them (they still do to this day).

For example, the clip where GG tells DD that he prefers a natural look to idol makeup was used against GG at the time, and antis tried to make it seem like GG was homophobic and that GG was against men wearing makeup. Some of the clips where they were playfighting or bickering were used to try to create a narrative that they hated each other. That kind of thing.

BTS and fan service

One of the most common questions I've gotten about the BTS - and I still often get this question - is, "Aren't the BTS just acted out/scripted as fan service to promote the show?"

There are a few reasons people have this question in their minds.

Solos #1 narrative about GGDD is that their CP was just for the show and the BTS was all fan service, and nothing about their relationship is real. They push this claim very aggressively on social media anytime GGDD or The Untamed is discussed, and new fans will almost always encounter those claims in this way.

CP fan service is a normal part of how dramas are promoted, so people familiar with Asian dramas will often immediately jump to that assumption about GG and DD and about the BTS.

Heteronormativity leads many people to immediately dismiss the possibility of a gay relationship, which leads them to try to come up with other explanations for those clips.

People naturally have a hard time believing what they're seeing with some of those clips. Some of it is pretty jaw-dropping and it's understandable that some people will be skeptical.

However, there are a lot of really good reasons why these clips are obviously not fan service.

For one thing, the show was billed as a martial brotherhood, not as a romance. Some of the official BTS clearly did try to appeal to CP and MDZS fans and could be counted as fan service, but those weren't even the ones BXG are most excited about. (There is a playlist of some of the official BTS clips here).

The most exciting stuff was never released during promo, and almost none of it is overtly romantic. A lot of it is really crude and totally unreleasable as promo. GG and DD are lewd, crude and often rude in ways that only two people who are really close could ever get away with. In many cases it's the casual way GG and DD constantly cross polite social boundaries with each other that shows their intimacy, rather than anything overtly sweet or romantic.

A lot of it is also totally incomprehensible to regular audiences. You have to be a turtle digging deeply into GGDD to understand the significance of most of it. For example the way GG took care of DD on his birthday, or the way DD constantly bargained and haggled with GG to get him to eat more.

Most importantly, if it was all fan service then why did GG and DD never do any joint CP endorsements? The entire point of doing that type of fan service is to make a buck. Other drama CP - including BL - do this all the time.

And it doesn't make sense that a production that was as low budget as The Untamed could afford to have the two lead actors learn a whole second set of lines and do a whole second performance that never ended up getting released.

And of course, none of that explains why the bulk of the BTS clips ended up in the hands of fans and released years after the show finished airing. A lot of it still has never been released to this day.

I've often joked that if the BTS were scripted they were far more complex, more melodramatic and better written than the drama itself. You just can't come up with this stuff in a writer's room. 😅

Anyway, this post got a bit long but hopefully it gives you a bit more of a picture of what it was all like at the time. Sorry, I guess I didn't talk much about my own feelings/reactions, but hopefully you can get somewhat of a sense.

Overall it was exciting, but I also had some deep reservations about it all (and got a lot of hate mail for voicing those feelings, too). Keep in mind this wasn't long after 227, so I think it's understandable that I was feeling very wary about everything.

But that's all water under the bridge now. It's been many years, and if the BTS were going to harm GGDD it would have already happened. I think it's all pretty safe territory now.

Edit: some more of my thoughts and feelings at the time:

One of the most exciting things for me about the BTS clips was seeing so many of the fake rumors being proved true. There were a lot of rumors (including the 49 fake candies) that I totally scoffed at when I first heard about them, only to later find via the BTS clips that I had been totally wrong about them and that these things had actually happened, and even crazier things were gradually revealed.

Things were changing pretty rapidly for a while there now that I think about it.

Learning more about their relationship and seeing just how much they looked out for each other was another big one for me. Also the timeline. The BTS really reinforced my belief in The Devil's Timeline (the belief that they got together prior to filming).

But overall that was a very different time in the fandom as well. There were always so many candies coming out, not just BTS clips but things that came out of GG and DD's activities and social media posts. It was a really really busy time in the fandom.

Since then there has been a government crackdown on fandom culture, on the entertainment industry, on LGBTQ etc. in China, plus DD's split with Nike and him having to delete a lot of his GG candy posts from his Weibo account.

Things are so different now, and unfortunately a lot of it for the worse. Being a turtle is not always easy, and I'm sure being GG and DD can't always be easy either. We make it work, but I do sometimes look back wistfully on the freer, more exciting times in the fandom.

More such times could come in the future. We just have to keep moving forward and hope for the best.

Somewhat related: I did a semi-comprehensive post about GG and DD's reaction to turtles here.

[vroomvroomwee]

I think OFMD has a much much bigger impact than we realise.

Recently, there's indeed been an increase in diversity, especially with queer characters, in media. But it's always somehow along the lines of pushing a little bit just to test the waters, just enough so that people will think you're progressive, while not daring to anger the Conservative audience. Somehow, dancing on the line between inclusive and not diverging from the norm which creates a sort of compromise if you will, a product that doesn't give either side what it wants.

The people who are searching for themselves in these modern characters are left shallow, are left to settle with the barest minimum, inclusivity that's half-assed and not so much well intentioned as it is a cashgrab to lure you in.

And David Jenkins completely swerved around that. He decided he's not going to play that game of fetch with his fans. No no no. He went all out. No more pretense. No more selfishness and greed. And this next part that I'm going to mention is the point of the post.

David Jenkins cracked his audiences. He disected their brains and figured out their wants and wishes. These past couple decades, ever since franchises like POTC, Harry Potter, and Marvel came out, Hollywood has understood this notion where it believes people want to see quality rather than soul. That it wants to see big explosions and high-tech suits and resolution upped to the max. That might have been the case up to several years ago, but lately, with new audiences coming up, these things have changed.

Now that everything in the real world is continuously and relentlessly going to shit from every direction, with newer generations getting a picture of what's to come and wanting no part in it, losing hope every day, people don't really care about those things anymore. They don't care about how big your budget is or how oscar-worthy your movie is. They care about comfort. They care about safety. They care about love.

And David Jenkins realised that. He realised it much much sooner than some big studios are still failing to do. We all realise the show didn't have much of a budget, hell it doesn't even give a shit about historical accuracy or consistency. But what it did care about were realistic characters. Characters who have different personalities (unlike every new Marvel character lately), who are complex and nuanced, who have different body types, different genders, different nationalities, different races, different sexualities. Everyone is their own person. Everyone has a history and a reason for their actions. And not just that but the WAY David gave a giant fuck you to every queerbait show and movie was impressive and BOLD as fuck. He saw that game of playpretense and decided he didn't want any part in it. Because quite frankly, it's cruel. And by caring about his audiences he managed to take the entire world by storm

Finally, the world might realise what viewers are actually looking for. It's not millions and millions of dollars spent on making the most expensive and grand movie of the year. Its love. It's comfort. This man basically brought a new renaissance to film making. And I cencerely hope studios realise what this means (and also start paying their workers!!)

[azaharinflames]

I can see the show slowly banking away from the queer arc. A soft retcon of Bucks bisexuality would also be perfect to continue baiting without having to either follow through or fear queerbait accusations again. Buck continues to only date women from now on, they never mention his sexuality ever yet Oliver is free to play Buck as queer as he always wanted. And by that I think he meant sending horny looks Eddies way to keep his base happy and engaged. It's really win/win for them. They got all the cloud for it last season, they could bait for another 15 seasons now all while not having to actually put any thought in how to tell a queer story.

Hi, Nonnie! Thanks for the ask.

See, in my mind, there are again two creatures:

One agrees with you, and definitely believes from now on Buck will only have female LIs. Most likely short relationships to keep Buck as the eternal bachelor of the series (like @unfuckablebogtroll said, have him be the Olivia Benson of 911), and then they'll put together a last-minute LI once they know the series is canceled (perhaps a female LI no one really knows, like Natalia, perhaps Tommy in a rushed right-person-wrong-time SL. I can definitely see both). If someone asks, well - he's bi! so him dating women exclusively doesn't erase that. Which, true, but in this context it is all much trickier than that.

One that disagrees with you, if anything because I don't want to become too negative or too cynical*. Because, yeah, sure, they can move on from Buck's bisexuality, but that is an insane bad look on them. If they still want to be praised and be recognised for their diversity and inclusion, it won't be it. Because, as I said, as much as a bisexual person is still bisexual even if they only date people from the opposite sex, fact is that in television things are trickier. Because it isn't as easy as just knowing something, they have to show it. Things are held to a different standard, and that's just the name of the game. So if Buck were to only date women moving forward, that would mean 1. a bad look on them, kinda like they lured their queer audience in (some of which had given up on the series already), only to bait them and 2. I honestly believe they would face some serious backlash for this. Of course, I cannot say this will happen, but I would be surprised if it hadn't.

All in all, we know there is a rebound in the near future, and I will be honest, I'm fully expecting that rebound to be a woman. I will be pleasantly surprised if he rebounds with a man - as much as we know the relationship is very short-lived, as Tim has already warned.

We'll see - I'm one of them that believes that, for Buck, it's either growing back together with Tommy, or nothing. And nothing as in - he'll be the eternal bachelor until the series ends, because I truly believe they won't be able to find a LI that tops Tommy, or one the audience falls half in love with, in comparison to how much they loved Tommy. So. I might be wrong on this one, but I truly think that, long-term, it's either getting back together with Tommy, or a string of half-assed and unfulfilling LI until the very end of the series.

Oh! I also want to add - I don't see the 'throwing glances' at Eddie, mostly because I want to believe they are not that stupid. They're playing a dangerous game and are currently toying a very thin line here. We know they don't have plans to have Buddie happen, but if they actively start baiting their audience, it will look extremely bad on them.

My inbox is open for ranting, venting, or discussing! And if you wanna talk more things than 911, it is open for that as well!

Take care <3

*Disclaimer: not saying that you are being too negative or cynical. I 100% understand where you're coming from, especially after the way the show has dealt with all of this in the last few weeks. I see what you're saying and I partly agree with it.

[readandwritesilver]

wwdits spoilers

if u disagree that's okay and i see you and i hear you however i fully don't think being canon was ever nandermo's future. there were a few things about the finale that i didn't like generally but nandermo isn't one of them. both these characters are so complex and maybe if we're talking about how going back the last 2-3 seasons should have been strictured differently then yeah sure there are definitely ways the story could have been told where some kind of definitive romantic conclusion made sense but at some point we're just talking about a different show.

yes i thought the plotline with nandor and the guide was really weird. yes i wish last season and especially this season had the emotional intensity and serious moments/plots of seasons past. but even if both those things were true i still don't think oh look we confessed our love now we are kissing yayyyy was the ending they deserved😭😭 seeing people comparing it to like supernatural or whatever other [insert queerbait here] just. idk i feel the pain that is being expressed and i understand deeply the place that it is coming from but i think calling nandermo queerbait is very misguided. those characters are both explictly queer. and they explicitly care about eachother a lot. they are also both explicitly not in a place for that kind of ending to be a legitimately satisfying conclusion.

the whole point of the finale is that life is going to go on (literally) infinitely for these characters. all the vampires are going to be there for a very long time. guillermo has grown exponentially in the last six years and while he doesn't know exactly what he wants to do with himself, he has a much clearer picture of who he is in the first place and we can feel sure he's going to make descisions according to that. nandor literally says to him when they're leaving canon capital, you're not just a human anymore, you can't ever just go back to that life, and he's right. they are both going to live their lives, and sometimes they'll be together and sometimes they won't, and eventually maybe they'll figure out something that works between them and maybe they won't.

i love nandor and guillermo together. i have written i think around 40,000 words just on the subject and made countless more posts on here. this isn't about the quality of them as a pairing, it's about telling a story, and i just don't think that was the story wwdits needed to tell in order to have a good conclusion.

tldr i think season six had a lot of sloppy moments and there are a lot of things about the season as a whole that i found disappointing, however nandermo not going canon wasn't one of them

[pseudophan]

i am a phannie since 2014. and i had a strong "they used to date but now they don't" belief before they came out. around 2016.-2017. i fell into the trap of anti-s, basically dan and phil phans that were quite popular on tumblr, but still really critical of them, especially dan for "queerbaiting". i am also gay, so they actually made sense to me and made me dislike dan because i rlly thought he was doing it just because tumblr was really popular still and his fanbase was queer.. looking back at it.. real people just can't queerbait! it's a fiction term only! but that also comes down to ppl not really seeing youtubers/influencers as actual people lol. crazy times

it's really interesting to hear from all of you who got influenced by the really bitter bloggers from back in the day. i remember complaining about it and getting told off cause "people are allowed to have opinions and you can be critical of dnp" which is such a horseshit comeback bc this is exactly the problem!! people were upset by dnp "taking advantage of their audience and the shipping" and shit and my point was always ok if you think they're doing that then sure, you're allowed to think whatever, but it was based on nothing but vibes and to then base your entire social media presence on bitching about it is only going to convince others you've got a point, and that's a dangerous concept when again you are fully just making shit up! soooo many phannies got disillusioned with dnp around that time and a lot of it stemmed from wanting answers and refusing to accept there might be very legitimate reasons for us not receiving said answers. and sure i could understand being a bit annoyed at dan for various things he'd say and do but it was like.. if your annoyance with dan is enough for you to be that angry at them all the time then perhaps you should just step away rather than Make Shit Up to justify your anger, you know?

i'm sorry they got in your head, i genuinely feel so bad any of that shit happened because it was so so very unnecessary, but it's fascinating to hear about it now on the other side of it all and realising these really bitter phannies had the exact influence i feared they would. idk, i'm very much a proponent of it's your blog you can post what you want, but at a certain point people would benefit from thinking twice before pulling everyone else down into their misery

[asexual-fandom-queen]

Look, am I probably going to get myself in trouble making this post? Sure, but I accept that, because I actually do have to say it. Tommy breaking up with Buck is not homophobic what the fuck are you guys talking about??? You know part of asking for queer representation and queer storylines is that you get representation and storylines right??? Queer characters have as much right to be complex and flawed as straight characters. Not to mention that this energy is nowhere to be found for the female love interests of Buck's who haven't worked out. Tommy Kinard is getting fucked over by a prejudiced narrative but Taylor Kelly wasn't? But Abby Clark wasn't????

Tommy broke up with Buck when things got serious for reasons that are beautifully in character, especially when you consider that we don't actually know Tommy that well. He is not a main character. He's not even a supporting character. Still, what we do get to know about him completely supports the behavior we see. We know that his relationship with his father was strained growing up, that he spent his young adult years as a closeted (maybe even to himself) gay man in a homophobic work environment, that all these formative experiences were traumatic enough to push him into a relationship with a woman that was serious enough to lead to getting engaged. Which means it's only been what, seven or eight years, since Tommy's come into himself enough to live his truth? That's just not enough time to be over it.

Tommy Kinard, and the broader purpose his character serves, is to be a mirror to Abby and for his and Buck's relationship to mirror Abby and Buck's relationship, and the 9-1-1 writers are executing that perfectly. Because let's not forget, Tommy is not a real person. Every week, the writers have 43 minutes to tell their stories, and that just does not allow for every character to be at the center of their own narrative. Tommy's character is a tool to explore Buck's character. This is not a unique phenomenon. Karen is a tool to explore Hen's character. Michael was a tool to explore Athena's character.

And it happens to straight characters, too. You think Marisol No Last Name was a character that existed outside of her relationship with Eddie? Did Doug exist outside Maddie? Does Sue exist outside the walls of 9-1-1 dispatch? I mean, in fandom they can. The thing about the transformative power of fandom is that we take the underdeveloped and we expand on it. We pull at threads the writers, in 43 minutes, just can't. And because they can't, they also don't always - or even often - intend to.

We are making more of this than it is. It's in our heads. And that's not wrong. But my god, we cannot be holding the narrative responsible for a thing it's just not doing. Your attachment to this fanon version of Tommy you've created, and to the fanon version of Buck and Tommy's relationship, is on you. And you're allowed to be sad that canon isn't playing out the way you would have chosen if you were the one telling the story. What you don't get to do is call it homophobic because it's just not.

And the thing is, I know this is the trauma talking. To borrow Josh's analogy, this is a question of pre-Glee fans watching a post-Glee story. We remember Sterek, and we remember Destiel, and we remember McDanno, and we remember Rizzisles.

But the reality is, for every queerbaited ship that didn't go canon, the trauma runs deeper. Because we also remember Caroline Forbes' gay father deciding he'd rather die than "be a vampire." We remember Mulan walking away from Aurora and letting her have her prince. We remember Tara dying in Willow's arms, and we remember Lexa dying in Clarke's. So it's hard to watch a queer romance, especially one involving a character that we've spent seven seasons headcanoning as queer before his coming out, end.

The thing is, this is a queer relationship ending on a beautifully queer show. They aren't shoving their gay under the rug. This isn't a brief queer chapter in the book they opened purely to pander and that is now slamming shut. Hen and Karen are right there. Buck is still there. Michael may no longer be on our screens, but while he was, he and David were also treated with care and grace.

Just because we remember how it used to be doesn't mean that's what's happening now. Tommy is a plot device exploring Buck's first queer relationship, but not because it's a queer relationship. Tommy is a character whose purpose is to move Buck's arc forward because sometimes that's all a character has the capacity to be in the confines of a story that gets to be told for 43 minutes 18 times a television season.

And having Tommy be Abby's ex, as a narrative device, is brilliant. Having him walk away from Buck the same way Abby did is brilliant. Seeing those parallels and highlighting them, from a writing standpoint, is brilliant.

Buck's relationship with Abby allowed him to become Buck 2.0. She was a partner who shaped him and helped him grow in a deeply profound way. And just because she left him in a way that was hurtful and driven by her own trauma doesn't negate that. It also doesn't make her a cartoon villain.

For the same reason, Tommy walking away from Buck in a way that's hurtful and driven by his own trauma doesn't make him a cartoon villain. But it is clever writing. It bookends Buck's transformation into Ready For A Relationship Buck with his transformation into Bringing His Whole Self Into A Relationship Buck. And linking Abby and Tommy with a history of their own affirms for the audience that that's what this narrative arc was always about.

And who knows, maybe Buck and Tommy will get their romcom arc. Maybe Tommy does come back. Maybe he grows past his trauma and the defenses he's put up to survive in a world that raised him to hate himself. If he does, I won't be unhappy about it. But I also won't consider it the righting of some profound wrong. Because nothing about Tommy's arc, or the arc of the Bucktommy relationship, has been wrong.

[misty-feathers]

nahhh cause what even was the wwdits finale,,,,

spoilers under the cut but i've got thoughts

the whole gag of the episode was "haha there's been literally no character development" which is just. untrue??? and yeah i get that it was meant to be a joke but every single one of the characters had pretty satisfying arcs, and we did get invested in them, and it's almost like the finale is saying none of that mattered at all, in the end. and even for guillermo, who isn't a vampire and actually was aging and growing through the series, they completely overshadowed his monologue with something inconsequential and stupid. and then they tried to walk back seasons worth of development by having guillermo say that nandor is always going to be master to him. hello?? guillermo has been trying so hard to assert his independence from the familiar position, repeatedly insisting that he's not a familiar. so where in the world is "you're always master to me" coming from??? especially since they had talked literally one episode ago about being equal partners in their crime-fighting venture.

the crime-fighting thing also felt like it came out of nowhere -- like the writers ran out of ideas for what nandor and guillermo would do after the end of the cannon capital storyline.

also the whole nadja hypnosis and nandor and guillermo in the bed scene,,,, it is twenty-twenty-four!! when are showrunners going to stop making fun of the fans who ship queer ships? it wasn't quite as bad, but it genuinely felt the same as when supernatural introduced becky rosen or made the in-universe "fans" seem dumb for thinking it could possibly have a queer interpretation. the wwdits writers are saying to the viewer, "you don't care about the story, only about your ship. to you, the ideal ending is the stupid overused cliche that it was all a dream, as long as nandor and guillermo are romantically involved." which is absolutely RICH considering the fact that there was definitely queerbaiting going on and they were actively encouraging the shippers. and then to have nadja explicitly say that the viewer's iq would be reduced.

to be clear, i would've been happy if nandermo went canon or if it didn't, as long as it made narrative sense. but this just didn't.

also, why in the world would they make the guide maga? genuinely i have no idea, nothing else to say about it beyond just. what????

ultimately, it was such a disappointment especially because the series was mostly excellent. but for this last episode, instead of laughing with us, the writers are laughing at us.

[findafight]

It is tiring to be regarded as a 'homophobe' when you claim to not like a queer ship or say you do not think a queer ship is going to be canon & should not go canon. ST fandom has this type of fans especially Bylers and recently Ronancers. Sorry that I do not think Byler has a chance of being wrapped up in a nice way when the writers actively refused to even breakup Mileven in this season and intentionally added a confession scene on the show from Mike to El. We literally have 1 season left with everything else going on in a limited time frame but I am expected to be okay with the possible resolution of this whole thing, and should expect a nice wrap up where we supposedly will see Mileven break up, Mike and El moving on from each other, there will be a time for them to adjust to that, for Mike to consider dating Will HECK even for Will to consider confessing and dating Mike, for the writers to make that all believable to the audience in a nice way within the narrative.... and I am expected to like Ronance when Stobin is one of the most important platonic relationships on the show and we canonically know Nancy and Steve's break up was bad, and that Steve still has feelings for Nancy. I want to see representation, I really do but it feels like the fandom itself is bending any logic and sensibility to make a ship seem reasonable and make sense within the narrative... when it really does not.

God. Yeah. Like sure queer people can have internalized homophobia or intra community basis (like bi/a/trans phobia) etc but to say someone's a bigot just because they don't like the a fictional ship, or even that they just don't think it will be canon, is just silly and causing problems on purpose.

The intense blr shippers have really turned me off the ship, honestly. I have a few asks from them saved as drafts just to get them out of my inbox, and they're saying the same as others "we're fighting homophobia" "you're just as bad as people saying why don't we shut up about blr and ship mlvn if you don't think this has been part of a grand and epic master plan for the greatest romance ever" as well as just not understanding what the very specific phenomena of queerbaiting is, all telling me I don't belong in the ship because I don't ship it correctly. So. Makes me feel bad and really disappointed. People who ship mlvn (which my original post was also tagged, because it discusses them too) DIDNT come to my inbox and call me names or a fake shipper when I said I thought they should break up. Make of that what you will.

As much as Will and Mike getting together would mean to people, putting that much emotional weight and expectation and emphasis on a single aspect of a show, a single ship, is not healthy. It also, if it does happen, will not be the epic romance planned from the start they think it is. (We remember tjlc, right?? RIGHT??) If it happens it will possibly be slap dash and rushed, because you're right. There's a lot happening, the show struggles with ending/starting romances, and they are NOT the only characters that matter. The breathing room required for both Mike and El AND the audience to make the breakup feel real and that enough time has passed to not make Mike look like an asshole for immediately dating his ex's brother (and for Will not to look like an ass for dating his sister's ex?!?) Is now insufficient given how short the seasons are, and as you said, they should've broken up in S4 to pull that off.

And then the fandom would likely feel a bit cheated after building it up so much in their heads, only for it to be a bit of a flop. But I guess a lot of people don't mind how Nancy and Jonathan got together, so with the way some of the people in my inbox were talking about El then it could be like that too. Just. Not giving a shit if someone, a character I personally love, was really hurt and betrayed by her recently ex boyfriend and her BROTHER.

Pretending it was all fine because romantic love is the most important thing ever to them I guess. When it's not, especially in the show! Non romantic bonds are so important to these characters! It would just ruin it for me, because what I was originally saying was that Will, Mike, and El all mean so much to each other and actively try to not hurt one another (even if the do accidentally or end up hurting themselves) and that, because Will and El are siblings now, Will might think twice about dating Mike so soon after he broke up with El. It would make them look cold hearted and selfish tbh. That's why a good ending would be Will feeling comfortable enough to come out, and being accepted by his friends. (All of them not just Mike) and that final emphasis on the Party as a whole rather than individual Romo relationships.

It's actually very important to consider other people's feelings in everyday life, I think. Sure, ultimately they shouldn't dictate all your actions, but there will be consequences for some of them. They can lose friendships, or other relationships. It can also make a character look REALLY BAD.

For rnce, people go on about how Robin absolutely does not need to consider Steve's feelings in pursuing a girl. (Ignoring other issues people have with the ship that have nothing to do with Steve, lol) And sure. Okay. For every girl but the one that broke his heart, cheated on him, and who he still has feelings for that Robin herself encouraged. People are out here saying they could be endgame without completely ruining stobin's friendship like huh??? Do they understand Robin "what if we just combined" Buckley? Do they not care about the most important relationship in her life? Do they not care about her beyond how she can hype up Nancy instead of one of those icky boys?

A problem I have with rnce is that a lot of the writing saying it could be canon (which, lbr, it won't be. While I think blr may be canon just in a kind of disappointing way, I don't think there's any chance of rnce happening, especially with Vickie right there blushing and flirting with Robin) only focuses on how it would be good for Nancy, or if it's trying to make it seem good for Robin ignores their personalities and other relationships. Like Nancy isn't annoyed by Robin until Robin's speech gets them into Penherst, or that Nancy wasn't dismissive of Robin's ideas, and Robin wasn't clearly nervous and apologizing for being annoying in order to get Nancy to like her (tbh I think Nancy should have been the one pursuing a friendship with Robin instead of the other way around but alas). Tbh I could go on about how Nancy and her relationships and her needs/wants inside those are often misdirected? Misidentified? By fandom, and how that feeds into Robin being reduced to someone who supports Nancy (which, if people complain about Robin considering her bffs feelings about her dating someone, shouldn't they complain about her becoming a glorified cheerleader for Nancy...oh. it's because it's romantic. And some parts of this fandom value that most.) In rnce, which strips Robin of her personality and makes it boring. But this is already long haha (Not to mention it'd be super weird for Nancy to be dating her ex she cheated on and never actually told she cheated on him's best friend. Awkward!!)

I used to not mind rnce that much, tbh. I didn't get it and did think it was weird but the art was cute! And now it's sort of an alarm bells for people being weird about stobin.

Steve and Robin's relationship, like so many platonic relationships but more glaring with just how obsessed with each other they are, is often devalued by the fandom by virtue of the idea that a romantic partner needs/should be someone's number 1. Even though those two want to combine, and are seen taking active roles in trying to get them a romantic relationship, and are really the first person the other felt they could be completely themself around. They're the most important person to the other, regardless of their romantic relationship status.

[utilitycaster]

not to be all “only i like my blorbo correctly”, but i’m fully convinced that certain people would hate Imogen as a character if they actually engaged with her outside of “conventionally attractive sadgirl that’s one half of an aesthetically pleasing queer ship”. fully believe that if she looked like Chetney or Ashton or even Fearne, and didn’t come with a prepackaged ship, people would be forced to look at her as the complex, unique loose cannon that she is

Hey anon, I agree with much of this and I hope you don't mind if I go on what might be one of my weirder tangents/theories but this has been percolating for a few weeks and I think I've cracked the secret to one of the more toxic segments of the fandom.

I definitely think that if Imogen were not a woman, a lot of people would hate her (granted, a different group of people who hate her now would probably like her more if she were a man, because misogyny is extremely extant outside of the bubble, and even a little bit within the bubble, that is Tumblr). However, they'd be fine if she looked like Fearne...but many wouldn't be fine if she were also played by Ashley. Or yeah, if she weren't easily shipped with Marisha's character.

Here's the deal. When I and a number of other people were like "oh hey! Imogen is not really taking other people's feelings into consideration and is being rather insensitive about the Ruby Vanguard, given that they've killed half the party, particularly since she's literally known Laudna like 10 times longer than she's know her mother was alive" the attitude was "wow, you hate Imogen, you hate women, you're so unfair" and yet now, at a table that is half women (and a group of characters that literally has only one man) everyone who thought I hate Imogen and how if she were a man everyone would care is now literally just mostly ignoring her (and honestly like, everything) and instead constantly whining about how they miss Laudna. Which is frankly weak as hell, like, anyone who's loved Pike or Yasha is like "oh you must be new here", and at least people talking about Travis being missing during the gap between Bertrand's death and Chetney's arrival were making good memes. But I digress.

My theory, which I do admit is the most tin-foil hat I think I've gone, comes from some polls I've seen circulating complaining about queerbaiting in past shows, and also my recent interest in Glee as ground zero of really horrible fandom behaviors (thanks to people who have provided insight into that!) Anyway. I recently learned that apparently Quinn and Rachel was a really popular ship, for reasons I cannot, for the sake of what little decorum and kindness I am maintaining here, speculate on. Setting aside that this is not queerbaiting and it's wildly inappropriate and damaging to say it was, given that this show was full of queer characters and Quinn was shown hooking up with a woman, this has in fact clicked into place for me why people constantly ship Marisha and Laura's characters despite chemistry that is inconsistent at best and tepid on average. It's not terribly hard to draw lines from Quinn to Vex and Rachel to Keyleth, especially if you consider how fanon tends to handle these archetypes. Then they transferred this to just Laura and Marisha's characters in general, and here we are, and man if it hasn't gotten even more flavorless with every transfer.

So anyway yeah a lot of people really don't like Imogen much as a character unless they can project onto her, but because she's half of The Ship, they also will not tolerate any exploration of her flaws that could threaten The Ship and so they need to remove her agency and blame it on various rocks instead of Imogen being cranky and impatient as a person (like, again, if you want to interpret her powers as chronic pain, why are you not allowed to grant her the same complexity as Ashton, who is also cranky and impulsive?) But really the kicker is that if Marisha isn't physically onscreen, they start acting like a cat you locked out of the bathroom and simultaneously forget they're supposed to care about or enjoy Imogen as an individual.

[spicybylerpolls]

As a queer person I am definitely happy when celebrities openly talk about being queer because every voice that openly talks about the queer experience is still much needed in societies where queerphobia currently seems to not be decreasing. But I am honestly tired that the majority of people, including queer people, still seem to have a "straight until proven otherwise" mindset. Celebrities owe fans no disclosure about their sexuality which can be a very intimate topic for some - and they may want to protect their (potential) partner because even when it comes to "straight-passing" relationships, internet randos get absolutely vile especially when a celebrity's partner is only semi-famous / not-famous-at-all. Afaik Finn only went public with his past girlfriend because people threatened to doxx her and all the time there were fake rumours that she was a groomer.

Back to the point: I think people should just assume celebrities are unlabelled unless they make very clear comments about their sexuality. For example people have accused Billie Eilish of queerbaiting for years, I barely saw anybody say "Leave her alone, maybe she is still figuring out her sexuality or maybe she is a queer woman but she does not want to make a big deal out of it". The Billie Eilish is queerbaiting voices were always louder. And then when Billie explicitly confirmed that she is queer, I only saw takes that were like "I always knew it, it was sooo obvious". Of course there is nothing wrong with suspecting that some people are queer but I think this parading of "I always knew it" is quite weird.

I think there is nothing wrong with wanting openly queer celebrities, especially if their public persona is very appealing for you. But in the end wanting a specific celebrity to explicitly label their sexuality can be quite harmful - especially if they are actually queer but have had already very shocking experiences with queerphobia or their partner's exposure to the public before. There are thankfully numerous other outspoken queer celebrities and activities whom you can proudly look up to.

Yeah, these are all valid points!

I think it's especially important to note that contrary to popular belief, real people can't queerbait. And also no one, celebrity or civilian, owes anyone an explanation for their actions that might be seen as queer. The Billie situation was always so weird to me because she definitely was explicitly flagging for years and wasn't all that subtle about it IMO, but people on the Internet took that to mean she was a straight girl "queerbaiting" instead of an unlabeled, most likely queer girl exploring her sexuality in peace. And that was really dumb.

However, I don't think anyone here is actually wanting a specific celebrity to label their sexuality if they don't want to/aren't ready to. Wanting someone to be queer/wondering if someone is queer based on subtle things you notice is very different from what you said. It's more like people are rooting for Finn rather than against him.

People always bring up the Kit Connor situation, but I think there's a very big difference between maliciously forcing someone to come out because you're accusing them of "queerbaiting" if they don't do so and simply looking at someone and going, "Huh! Maybe?"

No one's marching to Canada or to the ST set and going, "See these receipts! We know you are queer! Why won't you just admit it?" No one's even accusing Finn of queerbaiting in the first place. It seems like the curiosity here is not out of malice, but out of genuine joy and genuine excitement and genuine interest. Speaking as an outsider, gaylors often get a bad rap, but they want her to be queer because they see a queer reading in her lyrics and hope they can connect with their favorite artist on a deeper identity level. That impulse itself doesn't seem bad.

On a poll that a recent anon sent in, a significant portion of Bylers selected, "I secretly want Finn to be queer, but I don't want to get my hopes up or jinx it." That clearly comes from a different place than malice or ill-intent. I think some people are speculators at heart, and even if they don't have a platform to do so, they will absolutely speculate in their heads. And some people are the exact opposite, and they seem to feel that speculation is always wrong.

Personally, I know there have been many artists I've loved who give off queer vibes either in their presentation or their lyrics despite not confirming their sexuality, and in these cases I've also felt the same way. And I don't think this impulse is unique to Finn in the ST fandom either. Look how many people got excited when Sadie hinted she was queer when she posted a comment on ig that said she loved girl in red btw ;). Honestly, I believe this type of soft launching will continue to be more and more common as the way of the classical YouTube hard-launch coming out video becomes more and more obsolete.

[lokielly]

is it just me or does anyone else ever think about the hit queer media will take because of how quick people are to call things queerbait?

tl;dr: there's something so good about a slowburn that we won't get with queer media if don't allow these relationships to develop slowly, rather than fast so that you as a writer don't get accused of queerbaiting.

of course, i'm not saying queerbait doesn't happen. we do see it frequently. this is why i think people are too quick when it comes to calling things queerbait, because a lot of people have experienced it so much they're traumatized by it in a way. it's just there are a lot of things that aren't queerbait too.

my perspective here is that a lot of my favorite ships took 5-7 seasons to get together. and those ships are SO GOOD. because you see their relationship develop and they grow as people together before even acknowledging their feelings for each other at times. it's so cool and overall just very human.

i've never had this experience with queer characters because it's always so much faster (and a lot of that comes down to queer, especially sapphic, shows being cancelled). i think a lot of writers do this though because people will accuse them of queerbaiting. i remember hearing that people though ed and stede were queerbait at first. and now i'm seeing this with nandor and guillermo (both canonically queer characters on a show with other canonically queer characters, which i feel immediately disqualifies it as baiting). i'm not the biggest nandermo shipper in the world, but i feel like i could be if this plays out even longer. it's already good and complex because of it taking longer to play out (also, they don't have to end up together at all for it to be a canonically queer relationship btw. the show could end with guillermo being like "i hate you nandor i don't know why i was ever in love with you" or whatever and it would still be good. but that's a topic for another day).

this is all also on top of tv already killing the slowburn by taking such a huge fall from sitcoms having ~25 episodes per season to now like... 10 if you're lucky. so please i beg. don't kill the slowburn even further it's already on life support.

haiii :3 silly little ramble time for those of you that are reading under the cut... enjoy my internal monologue.

i promise btw that i'm not saying any of this to be mean to anyone that has called things queerbaiting that i said aren't in this post. i understand why people are quick to pull that term; this community is so traumatized as a whole. i just never watched any queer media until i was 20 years old so i've never gone through being queerbaited and my standards are all based on the heterosexual couples i watched on tv.

funnily enough, the reason why i never sought out queer media despite knowing i was queer since i was like 14 was because of knowing that it wouldn't be slow and that it would be too?? on the nose?? if that's the right phrase? our flag means death was the first thing that felt complex enough while still being a comedy, weirdly. then came a league of their own. and that's really all i've watched besides wwdits but like... i'm not watching wwdits bc i'm invested in nandermo so. that's different. idk why i started telling my story abt my relationship w queer media. but yeah. i need depth. not just "we're gay and in love"

[canichangemyblogname]

With about five days left of Pride Month, I want people to keep something in mind going forward: supporting queer rights in the public and political sphere does not mean you have created a safe and welcoming environment for queer people, especially in private spheres.

Glass closet jokes, implying real people can "queerbait," discourse around whether "straights" can be at pride, and comments like "are you sure you're not just a [insert any identity other than queer]" make personal spaces inhospitable to queerness and personal expression.

Glass closet jokes are often made at the expense of people who are gender non-conforming in some fashion. They reinforce stereotypes and gendered norms. People point to "stereotypical behavior" for evidence that they knew you were queer and, in the process, reinforce queerphobic ideas about how queer people act and present themselves. EX 1: me being told, "The closet is glass. I mean, you dress like a lesbian." Explain to me how a lesbian dresses without relying on misogynistic gender norms and lesbophobic stereotypes of queer women. EX 2: my (straight male) friend being told, "You paint your nails? Shit, there's no closet at this point. Just come out, bro." Explain to me how painting nails is gay without using gender norms to police men's self-expression and without resorting to queerphobic stereotypes. People need to do more to unlearn the idea that personal fashion taste is evidence of queerness.

Implying that real people can queerbait also polices self-expression. Real people might be closeted. Real people might be cis het and gender non-conforming. Real people will resist categorization and classification. Real people will not fit perfectly into societal ideas on how a man or woman should dress or present themselves. And real people should not feel pressured to present as the most stereotypical version of their assigned gender or "straightness," lest they be bombarded with people critiquing their choices and spamming their photos with comments that read "egg moment" or "deNile is not just a river in Egypt" or "I know something you don't 🧚‍♀️ 💅." These types of comments are all just repackaged homophobia and transphobia. No one owes you coming out, and no one owes you conformity.

Discourse around whether "straights" can be at pride similarly ignores how some people are closeted and how queer people aren't going to act as how you think queer people "should." Recently, I saw a TikTok video of a pride event where a seemingly well-meaning individual was telling cis het people that they should not be at pride, all while videoing "couples" she assumed were "straight." First, don't video people without their consent. Second, this ignores the fact that there are queer people who date queer people of the opposite gender. For example, m/f bi couples and T4T couples exist. Third, this ignores the fact that there are gender non-conforming trans people. Trans people do not owe you SRS or HRT, or gender conformity. Fourth, this also ignores how there are gender non-conforming people in wLw and mLm relationships who often get mistaken for the opposite sex.

(EDIT: There is a conversation to be had between queer people about how LGBTQ+ safe spaces are becoming popular spots for people who are often offended by queerness or the assumption they might be queer. That conversation does not revolve around what I was critiquing here. That conversation instead revolves around how these are safe spaces, so if you don't like queerness, if queerness makes you uncomfortable, and if you are made uneasy by the assumption you might be queer in a queer space, then leave these spaces alone. I can personally attest that no one is offended by- say- an "ally" [me before I was out] sitting in a gay bar because they are their friends' designated driver.)

"Are you sure" questions straight-up invalidate an individual's identity. When someone "comes out" to you, it's not because they have just made a huge, new revelation about themselves or are possibly still unsure of themselves. Rather, it means they have deemed you safe enough to know about their identity or sexuality. They already knew this about themselves and likely have for some time. There is a good chance others know this about them, too. You are neither the first nor the last person they will tell. I have been asked by cis queers and cis hets alike, "Are you sure you're not just a woman who just hates femininity?" Yes. My gender and sexuality are not a result of what I wear or how "masculine" I am. And who said I hate femininity?

[eviltothecore13]

willsker (will/wesker I think?) and wenclair :3

Basically I STRONGLY headcanon that these two were in a relationship at some point, and while by the time canon starts Will is married to Annette (and I like that relationship and don't want to break it up or put actual cheating in there), Wesker and Will are still very close in a very queer way. And I alternate between yelling about how Wesker trusts Will with his life, going all "wait, technically, Wesker is the undead monster that Will the mad scientist reanimated", and writing silly ficlets with banter and Will complaining about the snow. (I haven't been through the whole ship tag in...a while...but I have done so, and there are some great ones in there but also still not enough, especially when we filter out the ones with Wesker characterisation that's very jarring to me, or the ones heavily based around cheating, and the ones where it's unrequited...)

I like their dynamic, I love how they grew closer over season 1, they're fun, I enjoy the ship... also saw a great post about the werewolf transformation+rescue scene paralleling Gomez rescuing Morticia in the first film, and there's also potential to contrast between Tyler (who transforms into a murderous monster--which would normally be something Wednesday would be into--but who kills people for motivations based in bigotry/resentment of a marginalised group and/or following orders from a bigot--very much not an Addams thing) vs Enid (who transforms into a much cooler monster and beats Tyler in a fight, and does it to protect someone she cares about, which is far more Addams)...

But at the same time, while they're compatible in some ways (Enid being kind and accepting for the most part towards Wednesday, and Wednesday encouraging Enid to stand up for herself more) and certainly have a great friendship by the end of s1, when it comes to them ending up in a long-term romantic relationship... there's definitely content I enjoy and if it happened in canon I'd be very happy about it, but I'm not 100% sure how much I definitively ship it yet. Their interests are very different, so when they're not investigating a murder I do wonder just what they'd do together. And I can also see the argument for it being a qpr rather than romantic. When it comes to my own fics, I still don't know if I want Wednesday to end up in a romantic relationship with Enid, in a qpr with Enid, with Joel, married to Lucas from the musical, married to a genderswapped version of Lucas from the musical, or what, and I'm just waiting to see how future seasons of the show develop things.

I'm also a bit...eh...about the insistence from some corners of the fandom that if they don't get together it's inherently queerbaiting (I think it would at this point be queerbaiting if they were both depicted as definitively straight and forced into boring straight relationships, and I am concerned about the possibility of that, but there are lots of ways to depict one or both as queer even without the two of them ending up in a definitively canon romantic relationship), and I'm outright uncomfortable with the "they MUST both be lesbians, if they're not both lesbians this show SUCKS AND IS HOMOPHOBIC, Wednesday could DEFINITELY never be into MEN I mean look at her she is OBVIOUSLY a lesbian and if you think otherwise you're wrong" I've occasionally encountered because like...bi people exist and depicting a character as bi isn't homophobic or "less representation" than her being a lesbian. And if anything there's more evidence in canon for Wednesday being bi than there is for her being either exclusively gay or straight (not that I really see any Addams as straight), since she's definitely interested in boys in various other adaptations but some productions of the musical have made her also into girls. The idea that she cannot be bi or it would be homophobic for her to be bi is just really uncomfortable to me.

Anyway it's a ship with great potential but also not one I'm insistent on as the only good option for her?