#also I don’t really get the Shuro hate

[monsterboyblood]

With every episode of dungeon meshi that comes out I believe more and more that Laios is the best autistic representation to have ever been written and I mean that so genuinely.

I don’t really feel qualified to fully discuss his dynamic with Shuro, but that episode was one of the first moments where I realised how actually well Laios’ autism is written because finally a series is showing the actual socially disabling aspects of being autistic. Laios didn’t pick up on Shuro’s social cues because he assumed they’d be the same as everyone else he knew at the time, which just happened not to be the case, and while he does get frustrated that Shuro didn’t try to talk to him about it more directly, he still understands and doesn’t hold any malice toward him for simply existing in a way that was unfamiliar to him, I’m really excited to see where their relationship goes from here because I don’t think I’ve ever seen a dynamic like theirs ever.

And then there’s the griffin soup thing which is what really got me because his suggestion to cook and eat the griffin was literally my exact thought after hearing Senshi’s backstory, and I was actually kinda shocked for a second that Chilchuck and Marcille were so horrified by the idea cause like. In my head Laios was completely right and it was exactly the thing I would’ve suggested in that situation.

This post doesn’t really have a point or anything it’s just I few thoughts I had after watching the griffin episode. I think it’s just nice to have a character who’s undeniably autistic where their autism is A) not the entire reason they exist, B) not used to excuse any negative traits or interactions they have and C) not used in a “this character is a total weirdo what a freak point and laugh” type of way.

[fuu-miku]

"Dungeon Meshi is the first time I've seen this frustration and the resultant voluntary isolation from other people portrayed in media so candidly. Laios' anger is not downplayed or written to be easily palatable, either."

Oh my god someone said it. I didn’t know how to articulate this aspect of it but yes

Represention of Autistic Frustration in Laios Dungeon Meshi

Like many other autistic people, I related strongly to Laios Touden while reading Dungeon Meshi. This post isn't going to spend time disputing whether he displays autistic traits or not—while I could do that, I want to focus on why specifically his portrayal struck a chord with me in a way the writing of most other autistic-coded characters has not.

Disclaimer: as the above suggests, this post is strongly informed by my own experiences as an autistic person, as well as the experiences of my neurodivergent friends with whom I have spoken about this subject. I want to clarify that in no way am I asserting my personal experience to be some Universal Autistic Experience. This post is about why Laios' character feels distinct and significant to me in regard to autistic representation, and while I'm at it, I do feel that I have interesting things to say about autistic representation in media generally. This also got a bit long, so I'm sticking it under a read more. Spoilers for up to the end of chapter 88 below.

The thing that stands out most to me in regard to Laios' characterisation is the open anger he displays when someone points out his inability to read other people. This comes up prominently in his interactions with "Shuro" (Toshiro Nakamoto):

The frustration pictured above (Laios continuing to physically tussle with Toshiro, using crude language toward him) becomes even more notable when you remember that this is Laios, who, outside of these interactions, is not easily fazed and often exists as a lighthearted contrast to the rest of the cast. Then we get to Laios' nightmare.

In Falin's words: "Nightmares love emotional wounds. Wounds you hold in your heart. Things that give you stress, or things that were traumatic for you. They aggravate memories like that and cause the dreamer to have terrible dreams." (chapter 42, page 10.) (damn. i'm properly citing for this post and everything.)

Thus, Laios' nightmare establishes an important fact: even if he is unable to recognise social blunders while he's making them, he's at least subconsciously aware that other people operate on a different wavelength to him, and that he's an outsider in many of his social circles (both past and present). His dream-father's disparaging words stress the impact this has had upon his ability to live up to the expectations set out for him, and we also get a panel of kids who smirk at him (presumably former bullies to some degree). Toshiro's appearance only hammers home how much Laios is still both humiliated and angered by his misunderstanding of their relationship.

I've thought a lot about anger as concomitant to the autistic experience. When autistic representation portrays ostracization, it's generally from an angle of the autistic character being upset at how conforming to neurotypical norms doesn't come easily to them; as a result, they express a desire to 'get better' at meeting neurotypical standards, a desire to become more 'normal' (whether the writing implies this is a good thing or not). In contrast, not once does Laios go, "I need to perform better in my social interactions, and try to care less about monsters, because that's what other people find weird." His frustration is directed outward rather than inward, and as a result, it's the people around him who are framed as nonsensical.

The Winged Lion starts delineating Laios' anger, and Laios' reaction is to think to himself, "It can sense all my thoughts, huh?" (chapter 88, page 16.) This is the scene that really resonated with me. I'm not saying I have never felt the desire to conform to neurotypical norms that is borne from insecurity, but primarily, I know that I don't want to work toward becoming 'normal'—I don't want to change myself for people who follow rules I find nonsensical. It's the difference between, "Oh god, why can't I get it," and, "WHY CAN'T YOU GET IT?" (phrasing here courtesy of my friend Miles @dogwoodbite). And for me personally, Dungeon Meshi is the first time I've seen this frustration and the resultant voluntary isolation from other people portrayed in media so candidly. Laios' anger is not downplayed or written to be easily palatable, either.

The culmination of Laios' frustrations in this scene wherein we learn that Laios has fantasised about "a pack of monsters attacking a village" drives home just how alienated he really feels. I need not go into his wish to become a monster himself, redolent of how many autistic people identify/have identified with non-humans to some degree as a result of a percieved disconnect from society (when I was younger, I wanted to be a robot. I still kind of do.)

Obviously, wishing death upon other people is a weighty thing, but the unfiltered nature of this page is what deeply resonated with me. The Winged Lion is laying Laios' deepest and most transgressive desires bare, and they are desires that are a product of lifelong ostracization by others (whether intentional or unintentional). This is the brand of anger I'm familiar with, and that my neurodivergent friends express being familiar with, but that I haven't seen portrayed in writing so explicitly before—in fact, it surprised me because most well-meaning autistic representation I've experienced veers toward infantilisation in trying make the autistic character's struggles easy for neurotypicals to sympathise with.

Let's also not neglect the symbolism inherent to Laios' daydream. "A pack of monsters attacking a village". Functionally, monsters are Laios' special interest—he percieves everything first and foremost through his passion for monsters. His daydream of monsters attacking—killing—humans, is fundamentally a daydream of the world he understands (monsters) overthrowing the world that is so illogical to him, that has repeatedly shunned him (other people). I joked to my friends that it's an autistic power fantasy, and it actually sort of is. And in it, his identity is aligned with that of the monsters, while his anger manifests in a palpable dissociation from the rest of humanity. This is one manga page. It's brief. It's also very, very raw to me. I think about it often.

To conclude, I love Laios Dungeon Meshi. This portrayal of open frustration in an autistic character meant a lot to me, and I hope I've sufficiently outlined why. Also, feel free to recommend media with autistic representation in the notes if you've read this far—I would really like to see if there is more of this nature. Thank you for reading. I'm very tired and should probably sleep now.

[sabertoothwalrus]

There’s something I love love loveeee about Laios and how badly he wants to be cool.

Let me preface with this: in general, I believe the harder you try to be cool, the less cool you actually are. The less you care what people think about you, if you’re “cringe” or “weird”, the more likely people will perceive you as confident and self-assured.

There are countless pieces of media where characters try to fit in with some group, change every part of themself to look/act like what they’re “supposed” to be, and end up miserable, often realizing the people they’re trying to impress aren’t worth the trouble.

I’ve experienced this in my own life too! Sometimes when I go out I wear a rainbow propeller cap! Cause I think it’s funny and silly and!! I ALWAYS get compliments!! I don’t wear it to be cool, I wear it because it makes me happy. And people overall have a positive reaction to it. it’s a huge contrast to when I was teenager and didn’t really put as much of myself into my appearance/wardrobe, and barely left any kind of impression on people.

So anyway, let’s get into it.

Laios… he’s been hurt so badly by people. He resented humanity for it. And yet, he still yearns for the approval of others. He wants FRIENDS!!!! and was angry and frustrated to learn his perception of his relationship with Shuro was so drastically different than Shuro’s!!!!

He KNEW that people were put-off by his love of monsters. Up until Falin got eaten, he deliberately suppressed how much he talked about it with others. He probably thought by not talking about monsters so much, it was working!! He was doing all the Right Things now! So Shuro confessing he always hated him was a huge blow.

But the reality is, he loves monsters. And most importantly, he loves cool monsters. He fantasizes about what would make the Ultimate Monster.

He feels very strongly about what he considers “cool” as well. He finds all aspects of monsters fascinating, but can still be HORRIBLY underwhelmed when they look too lame for his tastes.

He knows most people don’t feel the same way he does. He knows his “cool” is everyone else’s “weird”. It’s so tragically sweet how he latches onto Kabru the moment he shows interest in monsters, and takes every opportunity to infodump about them to him.

He wants people to find monsters as cool as he does!! But, he also wants people to think he’s as cool as he finds monsters.

Like!!! djkfghadkfjg IT DOESN'T EVEN BOTHER HIM WHEN PEOPLE HAVE A WRONG IMPRESSION OF HIM! He's FLATTERED by it. It's almost like, at this point, it doesn't matter to him if people don't like him. People can not like him and still think he's cool.

And my favorite thing is, it works. Laios IS cool as fuck. You KNOW he thought he looked so badass when he did this and he was RIGHT:

And yet, this is him trying very hard to look cool. But it's Laios's version of cool. It's almost contradictory, in that sense. Cause he knows people still don't get it. Like. He wants to be cool. He doesn't care about the "normal" ways to be cool. He thinks his cringe thing is cool. He does his cringe thing, that people very much do still think is cringe. So you would think that, since he wants people to think he's cool, he would not do the cringe thing. But he wore the pelt because he thought it was cool. And people clapped and cheered for him anyway.

is what he's doing really so different than this? ^

YAYYYYY WOOO GO LAIOS YOURE SO COOL!!!!!!!

[imaybe5tupid]

On the hidden repressed suburban white emo boy darkness in Laios’ heart

LET ME BE CLEAR: i like Laios, this is not a hate post, his flaws and darker parts of who he is round out his character and make him the character I love. Also this isn’t proper meta or analysis just my literal sleepy off the cuff rambling

I think Laios can be very comfortably summed up as someone who feels he was never indulged and the person he is in the series grew over those scars. I really enjoy how much Laios genuinely has a lot of darkness in his heart his emo-boy ness is really underrated. He canonically thought of (and is implied to sometimes still think of) his bullies (and sometimes people in general) like this

Aside being autistic, well into his 20s Laios really inhabits this very imo teenage mindset/outlook thats a combination of outsider and contrarian (the latter secretly). And the Winged Lion sees this immediately for what it is, this idea of being an alienated outsider due to your unique understanding of the world (I don’t mean Laios thinks hes like a nobel prize winner but more that he has a lot of resentment for how the things he’s interested in are not valued in the way he values them) and the percieved dull conformism of others (eg. his father), and how these feelings of his come from a deliberate (as in i feel hes actively trying to make himself think this as a coping mechanism) lack of intellectual and emotional curiosity about people or things that he’s unable to box into this Different category i.e the grass is always greener (of course in addition to his Traumas). For example monsters obviously, but also his fascination with Toshiro’s foreignness, like the island was probably full of strong cool warrior types but they weren’t so distinctly “exotic” (unfortunate but true 😔, many such cases see Japanism and also ironically cause thats how i hc the toudens, the way scandinavia is weirdly idolised by a great deal of the world, or even the way people will see an indie movie set in like small town absolutely anywhere else in the world from where they are and be like waow so cool and different unlike my LAME hometown imagine that meme of the ships thats like their barbaric practices etc.) and an emblem of this cool different world that he could idealise and escape into.  Shuro represents a kind of escapist fantasy for Laios, like in addition to just being (to Laios) This Super Nice Guy Who Always Saves Me And Says Yes To Me And Never Gets Mad, he’s also Nothing Like Those Boors from the village/school/ the military. And he probably dgaf about Rin or like Eastern diaspora in Melini and would say offensive things to them running along the lines of what he said to Lycion (“so you only look different on the outside, nothing is different internally , how disappointing”). Like you can compare Kabru’s curiosity towards people which is driven by a genuine passion for humanity, to Laios’ at times objectifying curiosity toward Shuro which is shaped by the pain of the past and immediately see the sickness in the head Laios has lol. Unconsciously, Laios I think can also be a deeply self-centred guy at his core (evidenced by the nature of his curse at the end of the story too haha).

[oodlesofweird]

Shuro thoughts (1201 words)

If i had to assign a term to Shuro that describes his character, it’d probably be ‘a lack of connection with others’, many of shuro’s relationships in dungeon meshi follow a similar pattern, in that they're all very neutral. He feels like he’ll constantly be in his dad’s shadow no matter what he does, leading to him not trying much, along with some resentment towards him. There’s also his relationship with Maizuru,who was one of the more positive figures in his life who he ends up blocking out as he grows older. Even his relationship with Hien is kinda. Nonexistent. They used to be quite close when they were kids, but their friendship eventually deteriorated when they grew older. 

It makes sense since the difference in status is more prevalent, but this made me think about how he reflects Laois. Even though they both have similar upbringings, with fathers who are in a leadership role which they would benefit from. Laios is still ostracized from the rest of his village, and pretty early on ends up leaving to become a soldier, where he ends up even more ostracized. It’s only when he leaves the army and goes to the island, that he becomes an adventurer and meets his party, where he finds companions who he’s on mostly friendly terms with. Despite everything he’s able to create his own life outside of his family. 

Meanwhile Shuro has presumably lived with his family up until he gets sent off on his adventure. He’s constantly in his fathers shadow, and everyone that he’s surrounded with is in some way related to his father. The retainers are all employed under his father and are more or less lended to him. Even when he leaves for the island, he’s still connected to him by the quest that he’s sent on, and his retainers that follow him. He doesn’t come to the island for himself, it’s for a competition arranged by his dad.

Another way that they’re foils is through their siblings. Laios’s relationship to Falin is incredibly important to the story. They both clearly love each other and left home to find their own path side by side. But Shuro and his siblings have a large distance between them. It’s never stated why, but I don’t think it’s made better by the whole, competition for inheritance thing. I think it’s also interesting how Laios’s adventure brings him closer to Falin. While Shuro’s takes him away from his brothers, furthering the gap between them.

Even in laios’s party, where he’s able to make connections with people not from his home, he still can’t really connect with others. Namari and Chilchuck both drink after work, Falin and Marcille are besties and all get along pretty well. They’re all comfortable enough with each other to speak their mind and jokingly riff on each other, all except for Shuro, whose relationship with them is much more like co workers. 

It’s the same in his old party. Hien and Benichidori are able to form a friendship with each other, and Tade forms a friendship with Izutsumi. But Shuro is distant from them all, to the point where him going “you guys did a good job, I’m sorry I dragged you guys down here” is enough to bring Maizuru to tears and confuse the hell out of them all. While Laios’s party criticizes him pretty openly, Shuro’s party instead just goes with what he does.

One similarity between him and Laios that I didn't really notice until now is that they both lack real friends, just for different reasons. Laios can’t find real friends because he can't read social cues or socialize well with other people, but he still tries to reach out to people even if things end up sour. Meanwhile Shuro doesn't have friends because he doesn't try to connect with other people, he's passive and only makes connections if they come to him first, ending in friendships that he’s not even happy with.

I also think it's interesting how he has a special relationship with both Touden siblings, just that one is out of love and one is out of hate 💀 Both of these relationships lead to him breaking out of his passive personality and making his own decisions instead of just moving through the motions. By falling in love with Falin, he makes the decision of finally leaving the party in order to form his own rescue team. Due to his hatred of Laios, he ends up getting into a fist fight and finally showing his true emotions and feelings. Both Touden siblings influence Shuro to make active decisions throughout the story (Proposing to Falin, leaving the party, deciding to turn marcille in, fighting Laios, etc). Even though these are bad decisions, (proposing to someone without any kind of romantic relationship first, fist fighting someone while half your party is dead), they are still him finding a voice. Both Laios and Falin make Shuro break away from what's expected and make his own path, even if it's very brief, and even if those decisions were very stupid.

Even though Shuro’s whole reason for coming to this island is the quest he’s sent on by his father, we don't really get much of that in the main manga, instead more focus is put on his relationship with Laios and Falin, (something something even narratively he finds his own path by having an arc based on his relationships instead of his quest). If he had an arc in the manga, I presume it would be around him finally understanding Laios? And eventually repairing the relationship between them and forming a real relationship (Though honestly i'm not sure about this). But nonetheless i think Shuro’s relationship with Laios does improve, even though he says he hates Laios, he also admits that he's envious of him. 

The two of them have personalities that fundamentally clash with each other while reflecting the other. Shuros passiveness and Laios' lack of observation skills basically guarantee their relationship would go south, but they do manage to pick up the pieces, after beating the shit out of each other. 

Laios and Shuro have a genuine talk where Shuro admits his envy, and even offers Laios a way to escape to the east, despite not being asked to. And in the final chapters, Shuro ends up hugging Laios with a genuine smile, despite not being comfortable with physical contact. Even though the two had a rough fight, their relationship manages to recover and become somewhat positive. 

By the end of the story, even though it's implied that Falin rejected Shuro (good for her), he's still on good terms with the Toudens. He finally makes his own decisions and speaks, and even though things got kinda ugly, he's still able to have a positive relationship with Laios and Falin, not as besties or as a married couple, but just as fellow people. He finally finds his voice and speaks up, end creates connections by the end of it. 

If anyone would like to add more to this or has points they wanna bring up please do ^^, these are just my disorganized thoughts that i finally wrote down.

[casualfruit]

As much as I understand the fandom’s general negative reaction to Shuro, I can’t help but feel bad for him. I’ve been both Laios and Shuro in that situation. It’s heartbreaking to suddenly find out that someone you considered a close friend actually hates you; it’s agonizing to be friends with someone you can’t stand, but don’t have the guts to tell them how you really feel. Then the repressed frustration finally reaches critical mass and explodes out all at once, making an already painful experience that much worse for both parties.

I was raised on the idea that if you don’t have anything nice to say, you shouldn’t say anything at all—and telling someone you don’t like them is not nice. Even the calmest, most non-judgemental declaration that I don’t want to be someone’s friend comes with a boatload of guilt. At the same time, I know that the longer I wait, the more hurtful it will be—I’ve also been on the other side of this predicament, and it was devastating—which also makes me feel extremely guilty.

When I find myself in an unwanted friendship, I often find myself acting like Shuro: dropping subtle hints and slowly trying to distance myself until the other person either takes the hint or just moves on. It’s even worse when you share mutual friends because that can cause an entire friend group schism, which means even more people get hurt by this one sour relationship. You might even get ousted from the group altogether (again, this has happened to me), or the other person might get ousted, which comes with yet more guilt. Is it even worth it at that point? Maybe it’s better to silently tolerate this one person for the sake of maintaining the peace. I know it’s selfish, I know it’s not fair, but it feels so much easier to stay quiet and nod along than to have a confrontation and risk losing a huge part of your support system.

Combine that with the fact that Shuro is/was in love with Falin… god, I really have no idea what I’d do in that situation.

TL;DR Shuro isn’t evil, he was stuck in a difficult position and badly mishandled it due to his upbringing and his desire to maintain a positive relationship with Falin (and presumably everyone else aside from Laios)

[fumifooms]

Marchil crumbs part 5

Part 1 - Part 2 - part 3 - part 4 - part 6 - part 7

The anime has come and since I have my shipping goggles on I am going to notice so much. This part will be less spoilery for anime onlys (tho if you want to see me talk about why I ship them and why they’re complementary this is not a good part to start with haha). Edit: After completing this part I can confirm it’s fully anime-onlys friendly and spoiler-free! For manga veterans though there are still some fun tidbits to be found, some recontextualisations and new extra content.

Holy shit guys they’re mirroring each other in the mural and reaching out to each other AND looking towards each other?!!!! Their pose is so striking and like perfectly align?! Which means it was so intentional and the staff wanted to highlight them (for an aesthetic and/or narrative purpose I’m sure but it happened)! I will never let this go we won so fucking hard let’s goooooo we are so back

Character foils!! Dynamic duo!!

Soulmates!!

In the opening at 1:16 he looks at her to see if she’s really going to it as the most critical of monster food & muster up courage to dig into it himself lmao… "Marcille doesn’t look too grossed out, she’s picky so this food must be fine then" Aka treating her as a poison taster/good cuisine judge lmao

Doodle from the animation director (source). I should translate it but I’m procrastinating on it so uh director’s brotp? Anyways they hanging out look at them :]

Laios is thinking to himself there (he’s the one saying the subs), and in the meantime Marcille and Chilchuck talk, likely figuring out the money situation. Strategizing duo back at it again not wasting a second

In the beginning of ep 1, when Marcille is rambling about where they could go to get food and what to grab, Chilchuck listens with a big smile & even closes his eyes as they walk. The implication is that he’s thinking about food, but man the scene hits different now that it’s voiced and I remember that indeed Chilchuck is closing his eyes to her voice and enjoying hearing her talk and ramble. I may be too far gone into the marchil pit

I feel like already they’ve come far from when Chilchuck dreaded being alone with Shuro and Marcille, waiting for the Toudens and Namari to arrive.

Ok this might actually be smth I’m gonna complain about but I feel like blushes have been drawn too vividly so far. Why does Chilchuck look like he’s confessing when he tells her she’s not a burden and he didn’t mean to make her feel that way. It almost comes across as "Woah she cares what I think?" 💀 The banter ensuing is of course also great

Ep 2 was an episode centered on them both that had the "Magic/Traps are my domain, don’t interfere!" parallel… And now with ep 3 we’re back to them being haters together. That’s her emotional support man

In ep 4, it doesn’t show well with a screenshot but when Senshi talks about his unmanned vegetable stand with a treasure chest, while in the manga Marcille and Chilchuck both think the same thing, "That’s why that treasure chest akways had money in it…", but in the anime instead they literally finish each other’s thought. Talk about being on the same wavelength.

Ep 5 is a marchil goldmine actually, it showcases perfectly how much of a package deal they are lol. Always sticking close to each other. Glancing at each other during meals… They literally nod at each other before they try a bite to steel themselves. They exchange a serious thoughtful glance when Laios talks about Falin truly being gone atm. They argue a bit but they go right back to sitting right next to each other after the meal <3 My god I can’t deal with them they are so…… "Hate this bitch, not my friend" 3 secs later "Heyy bestie!!" Also he’s worried he brought her mood down after mentioning Falin. Made a post about ep 5 collecting even more screenshots.

Episode 6 my hero my beloved… Again I made a post about the ep collecting all my screenshots here, and even a clip! But this IS the marchil crumbs masterpost thus I must collect the major ones here as well. First of all, fun staff drawings for the first screening!

I already posted a screenshot from the trailer of when Chil had his head on his knees sitting next to her, but after seeing episode 5 I think it’s a fun and interesting trend to notice that they sit next to each other way unnecessarily close wow. They continue to banter a ton, she continues to be very casual with touch, and they’re really cute! I love just how much Marcille blushed damn- It’s really cute too when you remember with the bicorn chapter that Chilchuck teases Marcille BECAUSE he enjoys getting a rise out of her, flustering her and seeing her reactions. I support the teasing -> laughing because her reaction is over the top all-Chilchuck economy. Also she apologizes for having let him go alone and be gone for so long by helping him with sewing his cowl… Cuties

She looked so happy when he opened up about his age!… And then seemed… Disappointed? When he "truly was just a kid". "So you really are a kid! How boring…" This implies that her intent was to tease him for funsies… Ok lads we reached 30 pics see you next post, I’m gonna cover the "wake up clumsy head" manga-anime differences and we’re gonna go back to our usual spoilers yummy schedule.

Here’s Marcille cosplaying as a succubus in the newest Daydream Hour… She may not be a half-foot or have deep-set eyes but let’s be real I think he’d explode

part 6 here!!

[beastenraged]

The thing is though, Shuro doesn’t hate Laios for the same thing he loves in Falin. They both have enthusiastic interest in monsters and animals. This isn’t Shuro’s problem with Laios. I can’t recall anytime Falin is shown being overly talkative to the point of wearing someone out, which Laios does constantly. Falin in comparison is quiet and reserved, much like Shuro himself is. I don’t see his attraction to her but frustration with Laios as hypocritical at all because they have similar interests but very different personalities which that post doesn’t acknowledge at all

I could go on and on about differences in presentation and socialization in autism between girls and boys, but I'll cut it short.

Marcille thought that Falin would react to the monster eating fest the same way Laios did: namely with excitement and interest.

Falin is also the type of individual that thinks "he has a really good dog impression" is an excellent compliment. Much like her brother.

Otherwise, there is really one big difference between them as you noted: Laios is loud and Falin is quiet.

Toshiro doesn't like the loudness, so he views all Laios' other traits as negative as well, because that's how human brains work, we sort everything in the same box.

Toshiro thinks the quietness is sweet, so all of the features that Falin shares with her brother get to be attractive and sweet.

The statement from that post about autistic qualities being good or not depends on how attractive people find it is still fundamentally correct. The situation is just not simply one-to-one as many people are taking it.

[siallysblog]

and speaking on dungeon meshi, my mother is also watching haha! (Fault on for watching on the tv when visiting my parents) her review so far:

Part 1 when we watched together:

“Why they have a kid with them?” “Hm? Oh no mom i don’t think that’s it… they’re like rpg… he’s probably some magic race.” “Such big ears….”

“Is this their work?” “Mhm i guess again it’s like rpg… d&d i used to play with my friends here remember? They get send into missions.” “….thats not a real job…” “well i mean they just got fired.”

(3 eps in) “this show is gross…” “you could stop watching?” “….no.”

part 2 iconic (to me!) texts and stuff she said on the phone with me (not in order):

“I thought they were going to have sex” (farcille bath scene)

“I think Laois is in love with the dwarf” (idek…)

“NOT HIM AGAIN I HATE HIM” (she really hates Kabru for some reason)

“He’s really pretty” (she’s confused about Kabru now)

“actually no he looks like a girl” (Oh ok nevermind)

“He likes Falin? (Her just now recently with the last ep that aired about Shuro.) “yes mom…” “since when?!”

“There was no need to see her boobs just now… at least it had feathers over it.”

[dandyleyen]

Watching Dungeon Meshi

Episode 17

-

Now that I’ve had a moment to cool off (episode just finished), I can calm down and say that I don’t hate Shuro but that I still do greatly dislike him. He’s a dick.

Maybe he gets better later on if we see him again, but Jesus Christ. Sorry, as someone who is autistic and has had an incredibly difficult time with social cues it’s just rough. I’ve been in Laios’ place in this situation and it hurts.

As a follow up, I think it’s wild that he seems to love Falin so much to the point of proposing while having this much contempt for her brother. Falin clearly adores her brother. Also, Falin and Laios are honestly incredibly similar. They’re clearly their own separate people, but they are quite similar still. ALSO. He proposed out of nowhere, according to what they said in the ep,,,, which means that his communication skills are clearly not the best ? So he really has no business beig mad at Laios for not picking up on little communication things when he doesn’t clearly state how he feels.

Separate point but Kabru is such a little weirdo ? Love him. I can finally see why so many people were upset with his character and angry with him for what he did to Falin. I was momentarily upset but also he was 100% in the right for that, especially given that she had wiped out most of the group. He also seems to just really hate monsters in general

[smallraindrops-blog]

I started watching Dungeon meshi a few days ago (and I started the manga), and Hades 2 reawakened my fixation on the games.

(Potential spoilers for Dungeon meshi?)

So seeing the Fanart of Hades characters as Dungeon meshi characters has me gnawing on my enclosure. Falin Hypnos, my beloved.

That's said I keep thinking of an au for WMFTD where Y/n is in Falins' role and Hypnos is in Marcille.

All this boils down to dragon Y/n and necromancer Hypnos being even more obsessed devoted and in love with one another. :) (You brought me back even though the ones we love most told you not to, I came back wrong, but I know I still love you. You did the unthinkable, and now I am forever indebted to you. You are mine, and I am yours.)

As for the other characters, I think Zagreus would be Laois (brotherly bond and instead of food, his thing would be filling Achilles codex and fishing), while not fulling matching characters I think Thanatos would be in Chilchuck role, and for Senshi... I'm not sure. You could put Meg there not because she necessarily fits as Senshi but to keep her with Zagreus and Thanatos, a knight, maybe? I was thinking of putting Achilles in Senshi's place because it just seems fitting. (And the Angst potential)

But aaa, that's all for rambling. I hope you enjoyed it and have a good day!

I enjoyed your rambling! ^-^ also on mobile. sorry for mistakes.

Putting my reply under a readmore.

But yes I love that line between devotion and obsession because that line might be thinner than love/hate. Also don’t cross that stuff out! That is the goooood shit. 🤌

As for the role for people to play:

Zagreus

Zagreus as Laois fits really well, methinks. It works bc part of the reasons Zag left the house was because he felt like he didn’t fit in.

I think with Y/N getting nom on and leaving Zagreus behind would only increase that feeling of isolation for him.

especially if the others kinda blame him for what happened. ( also maybe the dragon could be a hydra? so in place of feathers, y/n ends up with those horns things? And fangs? )

Maybe Achilles’ codex could still be greek monsters along greek gods and Zagreus having his own personal one for all the different kinds of fishes and the many ways to cook them.

If it was up to Zagreus, they would eat fishes for every meal. The others veto it very quickly.

Thanatos

I actually he would be a great fit for the chilchuck role. Both of them would much rather keep work and personal life separate.

also while Thanatos can fight and fairly well, he is not a skilled/trained combatant like Meg or Y/N would be.

so letting him have a role where he focuses on overall safety and solving puzzles would really let his natural skills shine.

also since y/n isn’t a healer, it would help Hypnos to have someone who also has the skills and patience needed for healing spells.

also I think the fights between Zagreus and him about not being reckless and learning to trust the eachother could be interesting.

Megaera

She could fill in for the Namari/Shuro role. She just didn’t leave the group since she had personal reasons to want to stay ( but it could be interesting if she did leave after Y/N became a sandwich bc the whole episode with her was one of my favorite)

especially if she ends up getting her sisters to help find y/n

it would also help bc while Zagreus is learning how to fight, the lost of skills and knowledge of combat after Y/N got nibble on would be huge blow to the group.

It also possible she felt some guilt for what happened to y/n as well but still blames Zag which could have some fun tension/fights.

As for the senshi’s role, I love the idea of it being achilles, but if I may suggest another character, I think Dusa would be a good fit for the role.

She already shown to be super helpful and has skill in domestic tasks along with being an outcast. Like the group find her and she ends up helping out by showing Zagreus how to de-bone and cook the many different fishes. Along with dealing various monster and gods since she lived in the dungeon for so long.

She would also be a friend of Zagreus while being a neutral third party, something the group desperately needs.

Achilles just wouldn’t be able to stay calm or listen if he lost his son. He would likely get everyone killed along with himself before saving Y/N. Especially if Pat is no longer in the picture.

So maybe…

Tall man Pat and Achilles adopted little Y/N, who might have elf or something else in him but no one knows for sure. As y/n get a little older, his parents began working in the dungeon together, leaving him with Persephone and baby zag. Y/n would start studying fighting skills so he could join his parents sooner.

Something happened, monster or demon and it left Y/n alone with baby Zag, hiding until his parents found them.

So Patroclus and Achilles takes Zag in and they grow up as brothers.

Somethings happened to Patroclus and Achilles, the only thing found of them were ruined gear along with Achilles’ bloody and torn codex. maybe that was part of the reasons the brothers decided to go down there. To try get some answers.

I think hypnos would be unsure at first but seeing the deep pain Y/N’s eyes would make him agree. Also only because hypnos totally thought Y/N as a great friend, nothing more. Nope. He definitely doesn’t get jealous when he caught Meg staring at Y/N a few times.

and he totally doesn’t cozy up to y/n whenever he got cold in the dungeon. Or share more snacks with y/n or fuss over Y/N more when he is doing the healing magic.

They formed the group and everything seemed to be going well.

Then y/n became an ‘all you can eat special’ and the journey began.

And like Hypnos might be going a little crazy bc he just lost his best friend, someone he knew as a boy then as a man and he just really wanted his best friend back. That was all.

Then they finally got y/n back and hypnos knew he was being clingy but y/n didn’t to mind, even letting hypnos hold on to him for far longer than appropriate and hypnos just didn’t want to let go. Maybe they share quiet, gentle kisses when alone together, promising to talk more when they got out of the dungeon.

Then shit goes sideway.

Hydra!y/n is huge, powerful, quick moving and terrifying. With dozens of little hydra following him around. ( kinda like the harpies kinda did with Falin.)

But he seemed to recognize Hypnos, he touched Hypnos’ chin like he did before they shared those kisses. And he was able to say Zagreus’ name.

Also lol imagine poor hypnos during that shirt ripping part with y/n.

So Hypnos can totally bring Y/N back to normal. Totally. He is not crying thank you very much. No, he didn’t want a tissue, Dusa but thank you.

And yeah lol. Thanks for letting me ramble lol.

[cooking-mama-meshi]

(Sorry in advance op I ment to write a small response to the comments/tags of this funny post and ended up writing abit of an essay)

Man the Shuro hate I’m seeing here is really unfortunate- and is kinda rubbing me the wrong way. I’m not even a huge Shuro fan, but I feel like there is some simplification and reduction happening here.

Obviously ppl are allowed to like and dislike characters as they please- I’m not policing anyone’s personal opinion on a fictional character. However it feels like a lot of ppl are demonizing him, therefore ignoring one of the main themes of the entire story. There are no “bad guys” and “good guys” in dungeon meshi. Most ppl don’t deliberately want to harm others. Even the main antagonist, the Winged Lion, is simply acting on the base desire of *hunger*. However it’s by persuing their desires, people are put in positions of conflict. They have to make difficult choices, and miscommunication happens.

Over all, miscommunication is a very difficult trope to pull off in writing, and can often be very frustrating for an audience if not done well. But when miscommunication and misunderstanding happens in Dungeon Meshi, it’s my favorite parts. Because it feels so human.

The way Ryoko Kui writes makes the world of dungeon meshi feel *incredibly* life like and relatable in a way not many pieces of media are able to capture. I feel like it is a disservice to Ryoko Kui’s effective and deliberate writing to reduce Shuro to “Neurotypical + bad.”

I understand the impulse, especially as someone who is Neurodivergent. The big fight between Shuro and Laios hit very close to home and is very relatable as someone who was often on Laios’s side of the argument. But it’s also probably one of my favorite moments in the entire series. Because it’s written *so* well. While yes, Shuro should’ve voiced his growing frustration with Laois before it boiled over- it’s hard to communicate!! Especially when you know said person isnt trying to be rude (and racist)! Especially if that person is ur coworker! Especially if that person is the brother of the girl you love! And *especially* if you’ve been raised in a royal court where every interaction has more weight and meaning. It’s hard!!! It’s a very real and human interaction and to call Shuro a bad person because of it is kinda reductive.

Next, I want to discuss shuro’s proposal to Falin. A lot of ppl in the tags dislike him for proposing/ “getting in the way” of Farcille. I am a huge farcille shipper, I love their dynamic- I could write a book about those lesbians. BUT, I actually really like that Shuro proposed to Falin. It shows how different his culture is, compared to the Toudens. It also is an example of how Falin’s autistic traits are seen by others vs Laios’s traits. It’s really interesting!! Plus he’s not getting ‘in the way’ of farcille, because Falin literally isn’t interested in the slightest. And I love that! I think it’s a really interesting story beat for Falin, who is a huge people pleaser, being put in a position where she has to voice her own wants!!

TLDR; I just think there is a lot more depth to Shuro than general fandom wants to acknowledge- and every character Ryoko Kui writes.

The funniest part about seeing a bunch of Marcille x Falin on tumblr and then reading the manga is you get absolutely whiplashed by the fact that apparently there's a man who's desperately in love with Falin and is also trying to rescue her. A man that literally no one in the fandom ever mentions lol

[britcision]

… I’ll tell you what Shuro did differently than Namari or Chilchuck

He had a meltdown

Like that’s it

Chilchuck and Namari think about Laios being awkward but don’t really say it, but when he was physically and emotionally exhausted, half starved, and literally just watched the woman he loves kill his trusted companions because Laios reached her first

He snapped, yelled a bunch of hurtful shit that is almost certainly not the literal truth, and hit Laios back after Laios slapped him

People wanna call him ableist after this man, the absolute pinnacle of emotional repression restraint, failed to perform his emotions appropriately one time, so now he’s the bad guy

And yeah, I get this is a trigger for a lot of people, and extremely upsetting for a whole lot more, but y’all specifically are the ones that Ryoko Kui wrote this interaction and the entire rest of Laios and Shuro’s relationship for

Laios understands Toshiro is overwrought and at his worst, physically and mentally. He gives Shuro the one thing we all need; grace and understanding (which, given how many times he has desperately fucking needed those things and been denied? Bold of y’all to ignore)

He doesn’t hold it against him because again, Shuro is a fucking wreck right now, and they talk about the future.

The future, where Toshiro explicitly tells him “if you ever need me all you have to do is call.”

They don’t have a verbal affirmation “I’m sorry, I value your friendship more than that, I didn’t really mean I hated you”, because that would kill Toshiro in ways the dungeon magic could not fix, but they don’t have to

Because they’re still ride or die

Toshiro doesn’t take a single bite of food until after Laios has beaten him into the ground and we know for a fact he’s not been taking care of himself since three days before Falin was first eaten. Because that’s when they ran out of food, which caused the near TPK

He’s autistic as hell, drinks his fear respect women juice every day, and never once pushed Falin’s boundaries, and nor would he ever

That bell is not a trite reconciliation or throw away bit.

That bell, the trust, the friendship, the love between Laios and Toshiro, is going to change the entire fucking story. It got its own shot of just the bell and nothing else.

The message was never “Toshiro is an evil and bad person who just decided Laios is evil because he’s socially awkward!!!” (That’s Kabru’s story although he’s also not evil and bad because of that)

It was “your friendship can survive your worst days”

If Laios doesn’t have to be perfect 24/7, neither does Shuro. Now for the love of fuck someone please tell him that

The Shuro hate because of the latest episode is pouring in and I cannot even begin to tell you how upsetting it is to see someone who is so much like me be berated by people for being so called "ableist" and "misogynistic" and simply "the worst". He is a product of his environment (a different country, which means a different culture), and sure his love for Falin may be one-sided, but it is still love, and it's love enough he's risking hunger and sleeplessness and self care to find her. Even Chilchuck pointed out that him proposing spontaneously is just something people in his country do. He is not shallow with his love. The same can be seen with his frustration with Laios. It's borned out of miscommunication and cultural differences, and it is clear, very clear, at the end of the episode that he cares deeply for both Laios and Falin. He's envious of Laios's personable and straightforward nature, and he admitted to it. He gave Laios a way out (via the magic bell) and promised to give him his aid when Laios is in trouble. He is a complex and well-written character, and he deserves more than just people shallowly trashing on him.

Also Shuro is also autistic to me but in a different way Laios is ✌️ Come on: hyperfocusing at the cost of your health? Relying on social cues to predict how people think? Too awkward to correct Laios from the fact that he's been saying his name wrong the entire time (his real name is Toshiro)?

Edit: Honestly? Genuinely? I also think a lot of the hate that Shuro receives also borderlines antagonistic because he's "getting in the way of Farcille" (he has not shown any creepy attitude towards Falin) and racist. Genuinely I think a lot of American/Western fans are super racist towards Shuro. He's angry at Laios's mistakes the same way Chilchuck and Namari do (overstepping boundaries, being ignorant of cues, etc) but nobody thinks twice about giving Chilchuck and Namari the pass. How come this repressed man from the equivalent of fucking Feudal Japan gets the boot? Is it because he fought Laios out of fear and the trauma of seeing his team die and his love interest be made into a monster thanks to dark magic? Does his apology and offer to help not count? You people are hypocrites.

[britcision]

Hey by the way I just wanna throw this out there because I’ve been thinking about it

Just… some analysis but also commentary on said feeling about people telling you you’ve always annoyed them below the cut

Shuro’s in one hell of an overwrought mental state right now. The woman he loves has not only died, he arrived too late to revive her and learns that the people who did revive her MAJORLY fucked up

They’re probably going to have to mercy kill her, and he doesn’t know if she can ever be revived, because Laios beat him down here

(Don’t worry about how anything might actually have gone if Shuro got there first it’s irrelevant, the point is he’s overstimulated and in a shitty place)

Why is this relevant?

Because he probably doesn’t actually mean what he’s saying

He’s lashing out at the first and closest target, and trying to make all of his problems Laios’ fault in case that makes them go away, and frankly probably didn’t actually expect Laios to pay attention to the “we were never friends” when he is explicitly saying “I’m going to kill you and bring Marcille to justice”

When neurotypicals say things like “I never actually liked you you’ve always annoyed me”, it is very rarely The Secret Truth And Everything Else Was Fake

It’s an exaggeration, and yeah, it is meant to be hurtful, but if it’s said in a heated moment like this? It’s probably not worth going back and trying to evaluate every interaction you ever had, looking for clues

Because it’s probably not true. Your friends that you spend a lot of time with probably have a choice in spending that time with you specifically, or someone else (or alone)

If they keep choosing to spend time with you, there’s something about you that’s worth it, even if you have some annoying qualities

And yeah, we can all be annoying - including your neurotypical friends

Those right there are the hurty panels, because it’s a pretty big trigger for a lot of people; that your friends never really liked you

But the important panels come later on

There’s the actual frustration underneath (and listen I don’t actually think Shuro’s neurotypical I think he’s been forcibly taught heavy masking by his dad)

“You’re the only one who gets to act totally sincere all the time, and everyone else has to take on the burden of dealing with you.”

High masking friend to low masking friend behaviour. And again, once the fight is over and they’ve calmed down, Shuro can name what he’s actually feeling.

It’s not that Laios has always only annoyed him and he faked the whole friendship. It’s that he’s frustrated, spiralling, and jealous of how uncomplicated Laios makes all these complex issues seem by being blunt

Because for Laios (for a lot of us), it is simple. Say what you mean and mean what you say. Why wouldn’t you just tell someone if you were annoyed by them?

Well, if you’re used to having the burden of managing other peoples’ feelings for them, for one. What if your friend gets angry when you try and tell them they’ve annoyed you? What if they blow it into a bigger fight?

And the really important part of all of this, and I swear it’s part of why we got this whole fight and heart punch in the first place:

Shuro 1000% guaranteed does not hate Laios for always being annoying. He’s still in a pretty shitty place, but he’s had his meltdown, blown off some steam, and when it comes to the actual truth?

They’re still ride or die

If Laios survives the dungeon, with or without Falin, Shuro will ride to the rescue and do what he can to keep them safe

(And possibly still narc on Marcille’s ass, he made no promises there)

If someone you love and trust says they’ve always hated you in a heated fight, or that you’ve always been annoying, you don’t have to believe them

Because once everyone has calmed down, if you can ask again “hey, did you really mean that? I’d like to not annoy you, can we fix it?”

Yeah, they’re probably not going to have the massive list of all your personal failings that the trigger puts in your head (if they do, well, you’re probably better not being friends because that is petty bitch behaviour that we do not stan)

They might have a couple things they don’t like

You might have a couple things they do too

Then you can decide together if you wanna keep hanging out anyway and try and do better

Deadass though, having a completely frank discussion, when neither of you are upset, will get you much closer to the truth than a screaming fight

Anger is a liar and will push you to say whatever you think will hurt the worst, no matter how you really feel

The truth is never that black and white, or that easy

Tl;dr: never trust what someone says when you’re fighting more than what they say when you’re calm

You’re not going to get a real answer until the adrenaline fades, and a very honest “I still like you and would like to be friends” is a pretty solid first step once you’ve both calmed down

Do not let the squirrel brain hold onto and covet words spoken in anger to hurt you. Kick that spiral in the ass and hey, if you talk about it calmly later and it turns out it was true? At least you know now and won’t waste more time on it

But that’s gotta be better than just taking it as read, holding onto it, resenting the person, and losing them as a friend anyway

Oh god, this chapter is hurting me.... the adhd/autism feeling of not realizing that you're upsetting and annoying the people around you until they treat you like you're a bad guy for doing it.... aaaaaaa

[nonbinarytoast]

Honestly I’m just gonna put a basic understanding of Dungeon Meshi below the cut for anyone not interested in watching it but what’s to read this (do not read if you are planning to watch, this will have spoilers)

Dungeon Meshi is kind of like D&D in the sense that they’re going through a multi layer dungeon the whole time. There’s all the typical fantasy races like dwarves, elves, half-foot, all that stuff. They call humans Tall-Mans also.

Below is a list of the characters you need to know, their races, their abilities, and a fun fact.

Laois — Tall-man, can use sword, and is INCREDIBLY autistic coded.

Marcille — elf (half-elf?), user of black magic (plus fire), also very lesbian.

Falin — Tall-man, user of not black magic, Marcille’s lesbian girlfriend and Laios’s sister.

Senshi — dwarf, he makes food (he can fight the food), has been living in the dungeon since before it was officially discovered.

Izutsumi — beast-man (cat girl), nimble and quick with sharp claws, hates everyone

Chilichuck — Half-foot, is tiny so can easily check for traps, has reassured the party many times that despite his height of 3’7 he is 29.

Thistle — elf, user of all magics (including black) (mostly black), most likely has a really good bromance with Delgal

Delgal — Tall-man, leadership skills I guess, former king of the golden country who’s been dead for I don’t know how many years (thistle is in denial) (also he’s just insane)

Lore you need to know:

Falin was eaten by a red dragon before the story begins. The reason they (Laois, Marcille, Chilchuck) went back into the dungeon was so that they could resurrect her and get her back. They had to go as soon as possible because they could only resurrect her before she got digested, and because of this, didn’t have enough food or supplies for the journey.

That’s when they met Senshi, who started cooking monsters for them and letting them feed off the dungeon, forgoing any cost or debts that they might have had to have.

When they get to the red dragon, they realize that Falin has already been digested because of the dragons strange activity and constant motion. This causes Marcille to reveal her secret, that she uses black magic, which is highly forbidden for what it can do.

The group assembles the only thing left of Falin, her bones, and Marcille does a black magic ritual that brings her back to life. The problem with this is that the ritual Marcille used intertwined Falin and the red dragons souls, making it so she still had some of the red dragon instinct in her. And some of that instinct was to follow Thistle.

Thistle has been looking for his childhood friend, king Delgal, for hundreds of years now. He had sent the red dragon to go out and find him. And Falin now has to answer that order. Thistle transforms Falin into a beast of feathers and scales and sends her off, once again, to find Delgal.

With Falin gone again and the groups moral low, they start to trudge back upwards until they run into an old friend, and eventually, a new one. This old friend, Shuro, has an attendant named Izutsumi, who thinks that maybe Laois’s party can help cure her curse.

Izutsumi has been cursed into being a beast man, meaning she’s part cat. She used to be a human, and she longs to be normal again instead of some house pet, but the curse binding her is tight, and they can’t get it off. She stays with them anyway because she thinks Thistle, (the mad mage, as most people call him) might be able to break her curse. Also, she’s starting to like them.

They meet a couple people, get a couple clues, and keep going to try and defeat Thistle and get Falin back. All with a delicious meal every day! (Thank you Senshi) (we love you Senshi)

Thats all that’s on Netflix and I haven’t read the manga so we’re starting right there and I hope I don’t commit a crime against canon.

If once I finished Dungeon Meshi I wrote a malevolent crossover…….

The probability that people would read it is pretty low………..

BUT THAT DOESNT MATTER BECAUSE ARTHUR WILL EAT FOOD!!!!

[cassiefisherdrake]

Just want to back up the reply above. I’m also not disabled in terms of movement yet Divinity is my go-to weapon for raiding. Trace rifles are my favourite weapon type - Wavesplitter is my number one favourite weapon in the entire game. It’s fun for me to use Divinity for boss DPS and I love being the go-to Divinity user. But here’s the thing…

You don’t need to be disabled for Divinity use to be worthwhile. You don’t need to be disabled for any mobility or accessibility tool to be worthwhile.

Like OP said, having Divinity opens up DPS weapon options for more than just disabled folks: it opens up DPS weapon options for casual players, for new players, and even for veteran players who can’t commit as much time to the game for getting every god roll. This is also predicated on the fact that god roll DPS weapons change. And they change often. Whisper of the Worm and Xenophage went from being the DPS weapon of choice when I first started raiding to being non-viable for total party use (i.e., 1-2 can use them but it won’t get you very far). Meta weapon usage often changes season to season, making them even less accessible to a majority of players.

I also hate the fact that this (imo, really stupid) Divinity Drama started from a standpoint of “aim is trivialized by Divinity usage” and “raids should be harder.” Like, if you want to play a harder raid, play the Master version of the raid. That’s what the master version was created for! Aim and meta weapons matter more there by default!

IMO, Divinity shouldn’t be nerfed. I don’t want it to be nerfed and I genuinely think nerfing it would be a disservice. It’s an important accessibility tool not only for disabled folks, but new players, casual players, veterans who don’t focus on having god rolls or meta weapons, and players of all degrees who just have a hard time (physically or otherwise) switching between weapons. Even if it was nerfed to 15-20%, boss damage would also have to be addressed and lowered, meaning it still ends up in the same position as before: with elite players wanting it nerfed because it trivializes aim / it makes it too easy and everyone else’s wishes being ignored as elites argue about it.

I think the true answer lies not in nerfing Divinity but in either making MORE weapons viable for DPS meta or in making DPS not the point of defeating the boss. Instead of DPS being the focus, getting the raid mechanics correct should be the focus! And raids have been steadily moving this direction anyway: Last Wish had Shuro Chi and the Vault, which focused hardly at all on completing a high DPS check and more on doing the task at hand correctly. Deep Stone Crypt is also predominantly not about DPS until the final fight against Taniks (and even then not as heavily as Warpriest or Oryx in King’s Fall): the sparrow run in the blizzard, breaching Crypt Security, surviving the orbital descent, and even duelling Atrax to an extent. Vault of Glass has some high DPS checks with Templar and Atheon, but most it’s about getting the mechanics correct. Vow of the Disciple is the same: there’s a descent DPS check with the Caretaker and a high one for Rhulk, but still a decent majority of the raid is about getting the mechanics right: dashing through the open on the Shard skiff while fighting off Scorn in the open, learning and activating the Acquisition Room symbols, stumbling through the dark trying to find symbols while your friends babysit the Caretaker, and then reading and activating the correct pillars to make Rhulk go to the dancefloor.

Raids shouldn’t (just) be about DPS. It sucks that high DPS checks have come back into the spotlight with King’s Fall with every single one of it’s bosses having a high check, as a lot of other raids have begun focusing more on mechanics and puzzle-solving than DPS. If DPS didn’t matter as much so everyone could use whatever weapons they wanted/felt comfortable with and there were, say, Grandmaster raids for the elites to grind their teeth on, I think it’d be a lot more fun for everyone.

How does Divinity help with the way disabled folk play, other than moving the crit spot? /genq /polite

Well, first, moving the crit spot is a huge help in of itself. That alone turns the weapon into something incredibly helpful.

But outside of that, the debuff is instrumental with helping players who have a hard time playing for long periods of time. This help is two-fold. First, players with disabilities tend to generally not have a lot of time to play; disabilities come with various pains and issues that prevent you from spending 8 hours in the game every day. Players who can't exactly play every day due to various disabilities and issues will be less likely to have a surplus of god roll weapons and options to choose from. If you don't have the best weapons, your damage can be lacking and sometimes entirely insufficient. Divinity debuff helps with that. With the debuff (and a more accessible crit spot), suddenly not having the best heavy linear fusion isn't so much of a problem.

On top of that, it helps with damage from shots that don't miss. Yes, Divinity bubble is large and the crit spot is easy to hit, but even with that, some people still have a hard time hitting all of their shots. Any shots that they do hit will do increased damage which helps. Sometimes missing the crit bubble is not even anything you can really prevent as some bosses move a lot and some of them have swarming adds running towards you and either flinching you or eating your shots. My tracking rockets and supers have entirely missed not just the Divinity bubble, but whole bosses (Warpriest straight up jiggling out of the way behind a rock.....). The debuff makes sure that whatever you do hit, possibly with less effective weapons, will do enough damage.

The second way it helps is that some people just don't feel comfortable doing dps or don't like it and can't contribute in a way that matters. Divinity is an option for those players to use instead. A disabled person that struggles doing dps on bosses can instead use Divinity. Divinity is very accessible to use; you don't need superb aim to activate the bubble and apply the debuff and you are also only required to focus on one thing during dps. A lot of disabled people have a hard time juggling multiple roles during dps on top of actually hitting their shots for maximum damage output. By using Divinity, they can contribute and they also help other members of their team, thus feeling more useful and having a role during the part of the activity that they may struggle with otherwise.

There are also other specific niche situation. I've mentioned Golgoroth before. Divinity doesn't exactly help a lot with the crit spot on Golgoroth. However, it does apply the debuff so whatever he's being hit with, even if it's not optimal, will do increased damage. This is from personal experience: I have an incredibly difficult time seeing things during the dps phase on Golgoroth. His crit spot is in his stomach and he moves. It's very difficult to see if you have problems with vision, which I do. The colour of the arena also doesn't help and neither does the visual clutter of Golgoroth's venom and unstable light debuff + the swarming adds that flinch (or Taken phalanxes that boop you). I love using Div for Golgoroth! It means I don't have to worry about hitting the crit spot myself and I buff damage for those around me who are better at hitting his crit spot than me. It's very relieving to know that I can just take Div and be useful if I'm having especially hard time doing enough dps.

Another perhaps niche situation is that for a lot of disabled people, gaming tends to be focused on familiarity and habit. Some people learn to use some weapons better and have a hard time being told to swap, leading to decreased damage output. For example, I've mentioned before, but I have a "comfort" loadout which isn't exactly the best dps-wise; Witherhoard, Funnelweb and my crafted auto-loading rocket launcher. I can quickly swap between these weapons and minimise reload time (reloading bothers me a lot). If I have to take something else, I start messing up. I swap in the wrong order, I missclick things, I miss shots. This increases anxiety. For some, it may straight up not be possible to use "better" weapons instead of their own comfort weapons that they are familiar with; various motor skill issues and various disabilities tied to hands and hand-eye coordination can make it almost entirely impossible for someone to just switch to the meta loadout. This means that someone is likely to be using a less optimal dps option due to their disability. Div debuff helps make that person not entirely useless because the debuff increases damage of their less optimal loadout.

It may seem like these situations are few and far between and not very common, but they are not. There are hundreds of other situations that I don't even know about that affect players with various disabilities and ruin their experience with the game AND their chances to attempt certain activities, as well as to improve. If you can't start, you can't train to improve. A lot of accessibility options aren't even needed forever! Sometimes people move past them, but they are essential at least for the beginning to ease people into the activity and help them while they're struggling the most.

With that said, I don't really think slightly nerfind the debuff percentage would be very noticeable. It currently gives 30% debuff. If it were 20% or 15%, it would still be a useful weapon for the purpose of accessibility and those that need it would likely not notice a significant difference. I don't see how that nerf is entirely needed, but if so, decreasing the debuff % is fine with me. Outright removing it entirely not so much.

Again, not something I think is an incredible priority; Divinity is still a special raid exotic and only about 5% of the population even have it (and who knows how many are using it regularly; I use mine very sporadically). But if Bungie has data to prove that it needs tuning (and they said they will look into it long before this drama), slightly decreasing the debuff wouldn't be the worst outcome. I wish this discussion didn't start by people insisting that "aim should matter more" and "not everyone should be able to complete activities." It leaves an incredibly sour taste in everyone's mouth. By telling people that Divinity "trivialises aim," those who have a hard time raiding even with Div can feel understandably upset and excluded from the conversation, especially when their "bad aim" is a result of something they have no control over.

One thing that I agree with Salta over this is when he said that he thinks raid boss health would need to be looked at if they remove the debuff entirely. Some bosses really have unreasonably high health and it makes boss fights tedious with very little variety in what can be done during the dps phase. People also feel like Divinity is necessary for those bosses because they don't want to do 4 rotations of mechanics to finish the boss; prolonged encounters increase the chance of fatigue and deaths, wasting rezes and leading to wipes and having to start over. This is also especially problematic for people with disabilities who may need more breaks and may have a hard time focusing on an encounter for too long. Any option that shortens the strain on players with disabilities is good in my book.

I hope this helps and that it isn't too much to read through! There's a lot more stuff that I haven't touched on at all. If anyone wants to add their reasons for how Div helps them, feel free to leave a reply!