#You don't have to love Charlie

[enixamyram]

So some people (constantly) claim Charlie is "pushed aside in favour of the men". Let's take a brief run through of the role she plays in each episode:

Episode 1 - Major role as she goes to talk to Adam about sinners and heaven.

Episode 2 - Key role of introducing Sir Pentious to the hotel and encouraging him to join.

Episode 3 - Major role of having trouble with her relationship with Vaggie and the hotel.

Episode 4 - Minor role in an episode that explored Angel's story a bit.

Episode 5 - Major role exploring her issues with her father.

Episode 6 - Major role going up to heaven to fight for her beliefs.

Episode 7 - Major role dealing with her feelings for Vaggie as well as trying to protect her hotel.

Episode 8 - Major role in the final showdown against heaven.

Seems to me that in "critics" eyes, giving a male character any kind of scene is apparently stealing focus. Which, to me, comes across like they're the ones obsessed with the male characters and ignoring Charlie, not Viv.

[imagine-to-be-a-pike]

I will never forgive fandom how unfair it is about Arthur

Dark Merlin It's usually good angst. You know, Merlin had had enough. Dark Arthur? Arthur is a fucking rapist, a monster.

Merlin guilty? Merlin feeling guilty and comforted by the entire cast. Arthur guilty? Arthur doing the worst things possible and someone razing him to the ground

Merlin always gets these nice things. always flowers, courtship, everything. Found family? Everyone comforts Merlin because big bad Arthur. (literally almost every Merlin "found family" is everyone loves Merlin and treats Arthur like shit)

Merlin gets an apology. Arthur? My parents will love me faster than someone will apologize to Arthur in fanfiction.

"suicidal, self-harming Merlin" but Arthur has no right to have mental problems (a whole lot of people have wanted him dead since he was born)

Protectivr knights? Always about Merlin.

Even the fucking omegaverse. Alpha Merlin is a nice calm creature who pretends to be a beta. Alpha Arthur... wild animal, keep Merlin in a cage.

No. Just no.

(forever grateful to those stupid British people that arthur never told merlin he was fat. because the fandom understands that something is a comedy if merlin says it. if arthur it would be ,,abuse")

[a-dauntless-daffodil]

remember how charlie started dating her gf back when she thought vaggie was a sinner who'd earned a place in hell, and then she found out the gf used to be a murder angel and got angry / hurt bc SHE tells vaggie everything so why didn't vaggie trust her with the angel thing??? does vaggie not really LOVE her????? oh yeah and murder bad too whatever- OH WAIT SO VAGGIE /DOES/ LOVE HER!? fuck yeah who cares about murder! the angel gf's wings are hot and charlie Will Hug Her

what im saying is... charlie doesn't just TALK about the fluffy vague idea of redemption

she's been living it this whole time

we see her CHOOSE to stay with vaggie even after having the exact terrible bad things vaggie did shoved in her face. there's no "she's just naive" excuse here

she knows. her kindness and hope doesn't come from a LACK of knowing how bad things or people can be

but that was vaggie's past. charlie talks about a breach of trust, of vaggie not trusting her with the truth, of the fear that other things between them hadn't been true too- Those are all PRESENT vaggie issues. they're all questions about the woman vaggie is NOW, and what kind of relationship charlie has with her, today

even charlie's line wondering if vaggie would've told her about an angel's weakness- it's not, "oh you're still one of them", it's "now i know there was something else important that you didn't tell me"

it's so quiet. that kind of, amazing moment. where charlie just unravels the whole idea of sin and flicks it away, like a speck of dust

being reminded of how many ways vaggie SHOWS who she is and who CHARLIE is to her, that settles charlie, answers all her worries and questions (she can trust vaggie) (vaggie is in this with her no matter what)- because none of them, those fears and pains, were about what vaggie had been

that's how the hotel can work. it's built on something REALLY strong- it's built on charlie honestly meaning what she says, and vaggie truly actively being her partner in it

we can't SEE that happening without looking at THEM

(we see people not taking them, or charlie, seriously- and getting fucked up when they Find Out)

them being and staying together is proof that the hotel can work, that angels can sin and seek redemption, that people- even sinners- can change

and when they change there'll be at least one place where they can BE that new person

at the hazbin hotel

[celtrist]

I really want to see a more fucked up version of Charlie in canon. Like, okay, I am a die-hard for sweet bubbly girls in media. But I always see how some people make Charlie actually, oh I dunno... demonic? And it's so refreshing for her type of character. I could honestly see her having low empathy (and we kinda see this with how she handled Angel's situation or even Vaggie's nervousness about taking control on an activity). An exploration of that trait (if it was intended) would be interesting to see for a protagonist, especially when her main goal is about helping others. I would love to see her actually have a level of difficulty in understanding others' feelings from the other residents, sinners, and even her father.

But give her a fucked up side. Not a "she gets more power when she's angey uwu", but a "oh, she's a little fucked in the head". It would give so much to her character that she just doesn't have.

@/murmurmurena (don't wanna bother them so slash there we go) has some fun ideas with Charlie. I highly encourage people to check their stuff out! So many fun dark ideas with her character while also still keeping to her canon personality pretty well! Personally, I think Charlie being a bit more naive to her own messed up traits would work best but her also being aware of these traits can make for some interesting character for her.

THIS FIC, "A Game Between You and I". RIGHT HERE WITH THE FIRST CHAPTER. A bit of spoil for the fic here: but I love how they handled Charlie’s absolute ignorance as to why the idea of Russian roulette is horrifying to Angel Dust. It doesn't feel like her being intentionally malicious or aware that she's the odd man out here. This is also a pretty old fic going by only the pilot, but the point still stands that it was such a fun take for her character!

Charlie is one of my favorite characters in the show in part of the POTENTIAL she could have as being the most bubbly sweetheart character while also being the most messed up character in the show. I can't say I have strong confidence with the show's writing and fully expect them to stick with Charlie being the "nice girl but oh no, don't get her angry or she gets scarwy". Which isn't bad for a character mind you, there's just so much more potential to Charlie outside of that trope, especially when you get into the theories of her either being a doll, Roo's biological daughter, or what have you. And for the MAIN CHARACTER of the show, it would be not only interesting but also bring the spotlight back to her.

There's really no question that the side characters steal the show, particularly all the male characters. If I'm honest, Charlie does not feel like she gets a lot of love from the show itself when she's supposed to be the main character. She feels far more flat compared to the rest of the characters (again, the male cast in this "female-lead" show has more depth than most of the female cast currently. I wouldn't be pointing this tidbit concerning the genders of characters if it weren't for the fact Viv defended Helluva's lack of development with their female cast by saying "Hazbin is a female-lead show and Helluva is a male-lead" and Hazbin ended up with it not feeling female lead (to me) and the male cast just completely stealing the show. I don't normally care about gender stuff, especially since I do personally lean interest towards male characters. But using one show as a defense for poor development of the female characters, and then that show not really holding up with no very interesting well-developed feeling female characters irritates me. It's just very clear that these shows don't seem to care much about the female cast :/)

If you like how Charlie is written that's totally fine. PERSONALLY, I just think they're missing so much opportunity with her character by just making her the standard female character type. I honestly don't have a lot of faith they'll actually do something with Charlie's character though. She's a pretty static character in S1 being the same from start to end. Not changing or learning anything to create any development. What does the end of season Charlie do that start of season Charlie wouldn't do? Fight back? Because we see with the pilot (which is the “first episode”) that Charlie does fight people if pushed like with Katie Killjoy and even Valentino. Static characters can work in media depending on the show or their role. But Charlie is the MC of a show about “bettering one's self”. So to have her as a static with not a lot of strong dilemmas for herself (like we see with Angel Husk Al and even Vox) seems silly. Plus, considering Hazbin is telling a whole story and it's not a fun episodic thing, characters are expected to grow on some level. Or else, what was the point of their hero's journey?

[the-wayside]

Pavel gets it.

Grief, real grief for a loved one looks different for everyone but as far as I know, for someone truly loved, it's not just ugly crying, it's wave after wave that twists you up and makes your tears run over again. It's a kind of crying that doesn't come from your brain but deep inside where they made you.

Charlie changed Babe. His very heart is crying for him. Wordlessness made visible. There are few actors/characters that I've seen who are genuinely distraught how I'd expect and Babe is one of them. It's heartbreaking and perfect.

[diseaseriddencube]

normal people: alastor is aggressive with lucifer because he's actually under the control of lilith and needs to keep him away/help charlie or sth

me: alastor is aggressive with lucifer because he saw someone with two ounces more power than him, someone who could help charlie more than he has and show him up as worthless, and he Is Not Having Any Of That anyways do you wanna hear my npd headcanons and why he is actually me and

[royalarchivist]

Slimecicle: Hey, do you know what- do you know what the mask does, dude? It keeps the toxicity out, man, and it keeps the clean air in. So we put those masks on, we take a deep breath. Bolas bolas. I'm going to give you guys a new contract too. You know what it is? It's gonna be at the top of your list. It says, "HAVE FUN." It says "Have fun."

For anyone feeling Strong Negative Opinions about Purgatory or any particular character, please remember these wise words from Charlie Slimecicle.

[pigeonstab]

veryyyyyy old sketch of Enoch

[rosielav]

Do you like fun?? Do you like whimsy??? How about mice???

Boy, do I have two games for you!! Both hacks of the Lasers + Feelings system, each game is one page, rp heavy, and can be played by small and large groups alike!

16 Mice in a Mech features the Mousey Mech Brigade and their many adventures! Create your perfect mousey crew, customize your mech, and pick from multiple customizable mission objectives!

16 Mice Make Soup (AKA MouSoup) is the culmination of two decades of watching cooking shows and wishing they weren't always so mean to each other. In this collaborative competition, you and your fellow MouChefs work together to create unique and unforgettable dishes using their customized Special Ingredient, but don't forget, at least one round MUST feature soup!!

I'm currently sitting at 247 + 189 sales respectively, and would absolutely love to hit 250 + 200 this month!! Since it is free+, I don't expect to make much/any $$, I just would love to share my silly little mouse games with as many people as possible 🐁

Thank you for your time! Keep Calm and Mouse On!!

[somegrumpynerd]

Sometimes I just

[vaggieslefteye]

HELL'S GREATEST DAD ↳ from Hazbin Hotel Season One (2024): 1x05 - "Dad Beat Dad"

[kerryweaverlesbian]

Mary and Jo (closeted lesbians to even themselves) freshly resurrected hanging out with Charlie for a hunt and Mary asks "so how did you know you were a lesbian?" and Charlie's like "Uh. I guess it was that I kept getting into these really intense female 'friendships' where I wanted them around all the time and I'd get distracted thinking about them kissing me. I don't know, I kind of always knew."

And Mary and Jo nod along like that makes sense to them but as soon as Charlie leaves for a moment to flirt with someone cute across the bar, Mary whispers to Jo "isn't that how everyone feels about women?" and Jo is like "yeah that's definitely how I feel about women. And I'm straight. She must not know. Should we tell her?"

"No, maybe she was just embarrassed about the real reason and made up a different one. Lesbians can make friends like straight women too."

"Yeah, ha, because if feeling that way makes you a lesbian-"

"-yeah! That would've made what me and Ada had a romantic thing. Which it obviously wasn't-"

"Right, and who hasn't gotten distracted thinking about kissing women, it's just obvious that we'd be better at it than men."

"-Or me and Lata-"

"It doesn't mean anything."

"...or me and Anna now that I think about it..."

"Two sets of boobs squishing together, who wouldn't be into it."

They both look up when Charlie laughs loudly from across the bar, then both watch her make out with the woman she's been flirting with for longer than politeness allows. Charlie looks like a good kisser.

Jo says, shifting a little on her barstool, "Well. at least we know she is into women."

"Yeah," Mary feels strangely tingly, and takes a sip of whiskey so she can retroactively blame it on that, "Glad she knows who she is."

[dennisboobs]

i love seeing normies chardenning, like yesss... please speak more on their friendship, this is fascinating to me....

[smile-files]

the alliance........ from left to right: baseball, suitcase, nickel, and balloon!

(i was trying to find a way to represent balloon's name and i came upon a lucky medium: given how he was a jerk in ii1 and nickel continued to see him as such, i imagine he'd just call him "bully" from then on, even after they became friends -- and it sounds like the word "balloon", no?)

[celtrist]

SLIGHT SPOILERS AHEAD BUT NOTHING TOO OBVIOUS (I would've waited a week but this one is pretty vague spoiler wise so...): I feel like most people might think she was being unfairly harsh in part due to her being a teenager and not understanding things. But I also think that's partially not giving her enough credit. I personally think she's very right in her actions, if not a bit melodramatic. I've said it before, and I'll say it again: It is very clear Stolas LOVES Octavia, but his loving and caring about her does not make him a good father. As viewers, we haven't been given any reason that Octavia should forgive Stolas. She seems kind of absent in his life and we've seen him prioritize things like Blitz over her (they make it a point several times in the show with the Asmodeus song and Lulu Land). They've kind of kept alluding to how Stolas does, in action, love Blitz more and doesn't pay enough attention to Octavia. And the show doesn't put a lot of effort into showing him trying to be better in this. He SAYS he is, but actions speak louder than words (and in a show, it's 9/10 times better to show it, not tell it). There hasn't been a moment in the show that shows Stolas putting in effort to mend his relationship with Octavia when we know it's important to him. And granted, yes, they have only so much time and episodes. But by the same token, there are episodes they could've not done (cherubs and Fizzaroli episodes) that could've put focus on Octavia and Stolas' relationship. Stolas' and Octavia's relationship feels more important than the day in the life of Fizz (and I like Fizz and his forgiving Blitz adds to that story, but we didn't need to see his life with Mammon).

If they want to keep hammering in the issues between Octavia and Stolas, then they also need to show the two mending (or bonding) on screen for it to feel fair for Octavia to forgive and trust him. We can't just say "off-screen stuff" as a resolution when this relationship is consistently shown to be rough and needs work. It's like if a show kept showing a couple being terrible for each other, but they keep mentioning stuff they did off-screen that tells us the relationship is good. That's not good writing! And while I have plenty of critiques for Helluva's and Hazbin's writing, I don't feel like they'd try to pull the "they solved it off-screen" thing. I don't think they'd be SLOW about it, but I think they'd at least show us on-screen stuff with it.

While I do think Stolas was in a difficult situation, you can't deny he's not a very good father (he wasn't even aware of her interests until the Lulu Land episode). Like, he can love her all he wants, but if he's not there for her, he's not there. And we haven't been given many reasons for him NOT to be there for her. You can't really name a lot of things Stolas has done in recent times for her that we've been allowed to see. The only part of their relationship we've seen is that they do care for each other but it needs work. I think it's obvious she's gonna forgive Stolas, just in part because he does genuinely want to do better by her and they DID have a good relationship when she was younger. And I think that's a good route to go with it (especially if they make a parallel of Octavia forgiving and trusting Stolas while Barbie chooses to keep hating Blitz).

I feel like people can be a bit lenient on Stolas because he's depressed and was in a loveless forced marriage with a woman while being gay, but I don't think that's fair for a character like Octavia then to have her feelings brushed off. Like there's certainly wiggle room to be sure, but it shouldn't mean we should ignore his actions and forgive him for everything he does. Stolas did do wrong and it makes me happy to see that there are consequences to his actions (good or bad). We've seen him keep flirting with Blitz over spending time with his daughter. These are things we DO see on screen. I do think Octavia was harsh, it's not like I don't (like with her reaction to the pills), but we as viewers haven't been given much reason for Octavia to forgive Stolas so easily. We haven't seen them have a good relationship really. Hell, we haven't even been shown them having a BAD relationship really. But the times we do get, it often shows the rough, bad side of it. Yes, she's 17 so her emotions are a bit wild and everything, and while I don't think she fully understands all the complexities, I also don't think she's a baby. Like... she's not an idiot. Teenagers have the capability to understand some of these things, she's not 5. Octavia wasn't JUST upset about the pills, she's upset because the man who said would always be there for her kept leaving for the imp he had an affair with. She's upset because he keeps being dishonest with her. Stolas has done far more for Blitz than we have seen him do for Octavia. I think the pills and that he's never told her about them was just the final straw of everything.

I don't think it's fair to say "Octavia doesn't know better" when she's 17. The show has hammered in the point that his actions have not = how he feels for Octavia very well. That, or just neglected to show any good bonding moments between them or anything that didn't involve Octavia having to forgive Stolas (as any Octavia episode had Stolas ignoring her and then saying sorry. Which would maybe be fine if they showed more to their relationship outside of that).

Rambled more than I thought I would for the series I have way less interest in, haha. But I don't really care for the "Stolas did nothing wrong" attitude I see some people have when Stolas has done things wrong. He was in an unfortunate situation to be sure, but he can still do wrong things (by all accounts, him cheating on Stella was wrong on a moral level). I LIKE Stolas' character too btw, and I like how messy he is. But I feel like a lot of people are gonna brush off Octavia's view as "she doesn't know any better" or just that she was being unfair about everything when I don't think that's fair to her. She was harsh, yes. I think the pill thing she doesn't understand entirely, but she's 17 not stupid. And there's more than just the pills that Octavia has reason to be mad about concerning her father that I think people don't wanna acknowledge. Maybe I'm talking nonsense though? I don't know, I really haven't been convinced about some of Stolas' actions, even if again his situation was messy/complicated.

[bitseventimes]

thing about sunny is when you take the stuff they do for each other seriously you start seeing how much they truly care about eachother, they would die and kill for one another, they all have some appalling codependency problems but at the core of it it's all love and care, and i'm enamoured by it bc it shows that you don't have to be perfect or beautiful or have your life all sorted out for someone to care about you, or to take care of someone.

it's like. you see this gang of assholes shunned by society who barely know how to stay afloat and who seemingly hate each other but when you look through the façade you realize there's some deeply fanfic trope level love behaviours in there and you go oh so it doesn't have to be perfect, I don't need to make my life the perfect scenario, to construct beautiful aesthetics or thought out meet-cutes, it's all in the grit of real life. sometimes you spend your days fighting with your best friend but he still peels apples for you and makes you tea, sometimes he offhandedly encourages you to keep trying to read and you don't even have to acknowledge it, but it's there! it's not always the focus point, almost never is, actually, but at the core of it all, it's always present.