#Tziganes

[fidjiefidjie]

Bon Soir 💙🎸👌🎸💙

Yul Brynner & Aliocha Dimitrievitch 🎶 Two Guitars

Live :The Ed Sullivan Show

[balanchine-ballet-master]

Mira Nadon and Aarón Sanz in Balanchine's Errante (formerly Tzigane), Fall 2024.

Photo: Erin Baiano

[rillabrooke]

the much-anticipated sequel, my top 3 violin concerto movements:

bruch - no. 1: iii. finale, allegro energico

sibelius - iii. allegro, ma non tanto

dvorak - iii. finale, allego giocoso, ma non troppo

i have a type.

[miss-m-calling]

Mira Nadon in George Balanchine's Errante (formerly Tzigane), New York City Ballet, 2024

Photos by Erin Baiano

[ebodinphotos]

Générations Tsiganes

©2015 : EBodinPhotography Site : https://ebodinphotography.com/ (pensez à laisser un message dans le livre d'or)

[tomoleary]

Jules Chéret - Johann Strauss' 1877 opérette La Tzigane at the Théâtre de la Renaissance in Paris

Source (65MP)

[femb0y-joker]

celebrating Rromani culture: (⁠ ⁠ꈍ⁠ᴗ⁠ꈍ⁠)

having to read all the nasty comments from butthurt gadje: ಠ⁠﹏⁠ಠ

[simeon-lovergirl]

Hola @fliaky96 te respondo mencionandote aquí para no saturar los comentarios (de todas formas te menciono a ti @leidensygdom por si quieres aprender más del tema) y responderte parte por parte, espero que leas todo ya que me estoy tomando mi tiempo para educarte debidamente. Así que leelo con una mente abierta, paciencia y calma. Sé que es largo, pero no quería que hubiera nada sin aclarar, y en los comentarios hay un límite de palabras.

"@simeon-lovergirl el término "romaní" hace referencia a los gitanos procedente de rumanía."

No. El "término" Romani, es una palabra en nuestro propio idioma (que se llama romani, romano o romanes), que literalmente significa persona, refiriéndose a personas de nuestro propio grupo (es decir, rom), y dependiendo de donde seas, las personas no Romani se llaman de una forma u otra (payo, gadze).

Nos llevamos llamando así desde hace mucho más de mil años, incluso antes de salir de la India, de donde procedemos y recibimos el nombre de Rom por ser de una casta baja en el sistema de castas indio. Y Rumanía como tal se unificó como reino en 1881, así que no, no hace referencia a nosotros siendo procedentes de Rumanía.

Mucha gente cree que venimos de Rumanía porque estuvimos esclavizados allí por más de 500 años, por eso es que también a día de hoy es uno de los países con más Rom del mundo.

"No somos una raza, porque para empezar el ser humano NO se clasifica como razas."

El ser humano desde el principio de los tiempos ha clasificado a otros humanos con diferentes razas dependiendo de su apariencia, y eso se ve claramente en el racismo que hay en el mundo a día de hoy. Literalmente estás comentando en un post sobre el racismo que pasamos en los medios de comunicación y nuestra mala representación con raíces racistas. Así que mientras el racismo exista, sí que existen las "razas". Socialmente hablando.

"Y no, no todos los gitanos somos romaníes. Una parte muy grande de gitanos procede del sur de la India, siendo el indú uno de los idiomas más detectables en el caló."

Y sí, todos los gitanos somos Romanes. Y nuestro origen es del NORTE de la India, la zona actual de Punjab, Rajasthan y Pakistan. Y por si no lo sabías, el Caló proviene de la mezcla del Romanes (nuestro idioma original, que proviene directamente del sánscrito y se parece mucho al indú como tú bien dices) con el Español al ser nuestro idioma original un idioma prohibido con el castigo de cortarnos la lengua y orejas si lo hablábamos, razón por la que en España ahora mismo es un idioma muerto, siendo los Calés (sí, incluyendo a los de Portugal y el norte de Francia, ya que España siguió los consejos de Portugal con los castigos que ellos impusieron, y los del Norte de Fracia provienen de España así que es otro tanto de lo mismo) el único grupo de Rom que no hablamos nuestro propio idioma, aunque últimamente hay muchos Calés jóvenes que están estudiando nuestro idioma.

"Se estima que la mayoría de gitanos españoles (calés) son de dicha procedencia, por ende, no somos romaníes."

No creo que haga falta que repita que somos Romanes (y no romanies, el plural en nuestro idioma es Romanes), por exactamente la misma razón que dices que no lo somos. Porque prevenimos de India y en su sistema se castas ese era el nombre de una de las más bajas, de la que formabamos parte.

"@simeon-lovergirl a su vez, la palabra "gitano" viene de "egipciano", pues por la apariencia, se creía que eramos procedientes de Egipto." "Romaní" es correcto para todo aquellos pueblos (que no razas) cuya procedencia fuera rumana. De la misma forma, a los gitanos de Andalucía se les puede llamar tambien gaché."

Tienes razón, proviene de egiptano, con lo cual sin darte cuenta me estás dando la razón. ¿Por qué nos llamarían así? Porque pensaban que veníamos de Egipto por nuestro tono de piel al proceder de India, no de Rumanía, dónde son blancos. Por eso el término racista, la slur, "gitano", está mal.

No es referente a los Rom de Rumanía, su grupo tiene varios nombres dependiendo de qué parte de Rumanía sean. Los Rudari son principalmente de Rumanía.

Y, ¿cómo van a llamarse gaché los Rom? Ese término, gaché, gachí o gachó, proviene de la palabra gadze, que es la palabra que la mayoría de Rom usa, y que nosotros en un principio usábamos (de ahí que la palabra se haya convertido en gaché con el paso de los años), para referirnos a personas no Rom, o lo que es lo mismo: payos, jambos.

"@simeon-lovergirl en 1921, el 8 de abril, lo que se busca es unificar a todos los romá. Y es que, Romaní, a pesar de no ser exacto, puede usarse como sinónimo, mas en el mandato no declaran "gypsy" como Slur: 8 de abril de 1971: hace 50 años, nacía la Unión Romaní Internacional http://www.presenciagitana.org/Entrevista-J-P-CourrierBalkans2021ES.pdf"

Investiga un poco más, sí que fue declarada una slur después de la segunda guerra mundial, puede que no con la palabra slur como tal ya que es un término reciente. Fue en el 71, no el 21, que se hizo el primer congreso Romani en el que se declaró como una palabra ofensiva que siemlre se utilizó para oprimirnos, y se declara que no es nuestro nombre, ya que nuestro único nombre es Romani, lo que es básicamente decir que esa palabra (gypsy y todas sus traducciones), es una slur.

Sino, ¿por qué se llamaría "Unión Romani Internacional"? Porque sabían que nuestro nombre es Romani, no gitano, gypsy, tzigan, cigan, y un sinfín de nombres que son traducciones los unos de los otros y que se han utilizado para oprimirnos y discriminarnos racialmente.

"@simeon-lovergirl Lo que pasa en usa, es el mal uso de la palabra. Prefirieron hacerla una slur en lugar de aprender a usarla bien. Hay otras palabras que han tenido una historia similar. El punto es el mismo: Aunque sean sinónimos, Romaní hace referencia a Rumanía, y no todos los PUEBLOS proceden de allí."

Lo que pasa es que en USA, no como en otras comunidades (tostoshispanohablantetostos), respetan el hecho de que no se puede usar bajo ninguna circunstancia si no eres Rom.

Las otras palabras que han tenido una historia similar, como lo son la nword o la palabra "indios" para referirse a los nativos americanos, "esquim*al" para los inuit, se han considerado una slur y se ha respetado, cosa que es fácil de hacer, solo tienes que dejar de decir una palabra que es ofensiva, racista y opresora para decir el verdadero nombre del grupo de personas.

Y no hay ningún punto en lo que estás diciendo, no son sinónimos. Repito que es una palabra que se ha usado desde que salimos de India y hasta el día de hoy, para oprimirnos, racializarnos y discriminarnos.

Otra vez digo que no creo que haga falta que repita que LA PALABRA ROMANI NO PROVIENE DE RUMANÍA, NOSOTROS NOS LLEVAMOS LLAMANDO ASÍ DESDE MÁS DE MIL AÑOS ANTES DE QUE RUMANÍA TOMASE ESE NOMBRE.

Procedemos de India, y allí nos dieron ese nombre.

Supongo que sabes o entiendes el inglés así que te dejo una cuenta de un Rom rumano (y sí, se puede ser los dos así como tú y yo somos Rom españoles), que hace vídeos educativos y habla de estos temas. Yo ya lo siento pero si esto ya no te ha entrado en la cabeza, paso de intentar volver a explicártelo porque parece que esto es hablar con una pared. Si quieres discutirlo, háblalo con él. Se llama @/florida.florian en tiktok.

Que tengas una buena noche, primo.

[nextposition1]

Après un mois et demi de coupure estivale, c’est le retour de notre chronique hebdomadaire. L’atelier radio ouvre à nouveau ses portes et ses micros chaque lundi après-midi sur l’Adamant. Au menu de cette chronique un texte de Patrice, l’Ours ; des nouvelles du collectif Hôpital qui cherche encore son nom par Fatima, une soirée rugby/pizza sur l’Adamant le vendredi 08 septembre pour l’ouverture de la coupe du monde, Damien chroniquera les matchs dans les chroniques à venir ; une histoire de malentendus au bar avec Anna, on ne sait plus qui tient le bar… Un coucou à Alain qui avait conseillé un livre à Fatima, « Quand tu écouteras cette chanson » de Lola Lafon, des annonces de spectacles et enfin un texte de Laurent, Le Moulin. Tout ça sur un air tzigane, un chant basque ramené par Guillaume, des animaux de basse cour dont on se demande bien ce qu’ils font là. Une chronique menée haut la main à la guitare par Wilfried.

merci à Marie pour son écoute lors du montage.ours

[qldqueerboy]

Your loyalty to those that you love is questioned today. It’s a sicking feeling placed upon you but there is little that you can do. Nothing comes easy today in dealing with the matter at hand other than confronting the hypocrisy of their affection towards you.

[herrling]

got normies doomscrolling, need help

[sillysealll]

Dont mind Nightwing in 4K, here’s my vision

[From bottom left to right]

Dick : mom look at me !

Mary : where did you put your shoes my son ?

I was waiting to get out of the boat and there was a lil kid (around a year or two idk I suck at estimating ages) who was playing around, very excited bc he was probably tired from the trip and he started trying to do forward rolls and his father kept stopping him by grabbing him and all and it was making the kid laugh

and anyway I’m so deep into dc that I immediately thought of toddler Dick learning to do forward rolls and absolutely wanting to do it everywhere he goes or when he has to wait and his parents have to stop him because "no Dickie you can’t do that in the middle of the waiting room". And Dick is just laughing and keeps trying to do it while his parents try to stop him desperately

And he’d do that with every new tricks he’d learn.. imagine when he was taught about hands stand or somersaults

Obviously this habit continues after Bruce takes him in

It’s just Dick has always been an acrobat at heart every since he knew how to walk and you can’t blame him for living up to his mother’s nickname for him

[trilobiter]

I'm all about Maurice Ravel today.

[gacougnol]

ROBERT DOISNEAU

Le petit tzigane de Montreuil, 1950

[whencyclopedia]

Romani

Romani is an umbrella term used to describe a diverse ethnolinguistic group of people with a historical presence in Europe and West Asia. The historically common term 'Gypsy' is based on the myth that they came from Egypt. In reality, the ancestors of the Romani migrated out of India in the 1st millennium CE.

During the European colonization of the New World, the first Romani arrived in the Americas as a result of slavery or deportation by European colonial powers. Romani immigrants began to voluntarily settle in North and South America in the 19th century. In the present, Romani communities are found throughout the world. Romani people share language and certain cultural similarities but encompass a wide range of social, cultural, and ethnic diversity.

Names & Identity

For most of history, there was no universal name for the Romani in their own language; different groups of Romani speakers and their descendants used different names for themselves and each other. The closest thing to an endonym in the Romani language is the word Rom/Romni, meaning a man or woman. In the present day, 'Romani' and 'Roma' are the most widely accepted umbrella terms for groups who speak or historically spoke Romani and have a common origin in the Indian subcontinent.

However, the Romani label is a modern invention intended to make it easier to discuss the overlapping history and experience of these groups and was not used this way prior to the 20th century. For most of history, there was no unified Romani identity or nation. The label is applied by historians to more conveniently refer to a number of communities which shared language and some cultural habits, but it should not be taken to mean that these groups were unified or homogenous. Contrary to the stereotype of Romani keeping themselves separate from society at large, European Romani were intimately connected to their neighbours and possessed a flexible cultural identity.

Different groups of Romani speakers have historically used their own endonyms. 'Roma' is widely used among Romani originating in Central and Eastern Europe. The Finnish Kaale and the Calé of the Iberian peninsula use names derived from kalo (meaning "black" in Romani). Other notable peoples include the Sinti of northwestern Europe, the Manouche of France and Belgium, and the Romanichal found in English-speaking countries. Many Romani clans and subgroups have been known by their historical professions, such as the Kalderash (lit. "coppersmiths").

Several names have been given to the Romani by outsiders, often based on misconceptions about them. The English word 'Gypsy' comes from the myth that the Romani originated in Egypt. Over time, it came to be used broadly for many nomadic or semi-nomadic groups in Eurasia. In the modern day, the term 'Gypsy' is often considered offensive, although it is used by some Romani. Gypsy is often used academically as an umbrella term to include both Romani and other nomadic peoples historically labeled 'Gypsies.'

Numerous European languages use words derived from the Greek word Atsingani or Athingani to describe Romani, such as the French Tzigane or Portuguese Cigano. The original Greek likely derives from Athinganoi, the name of a heretical Christian sect in the Byzantine Empire, and may have been applied to the Romani due to their foreign religious practices or association with fortune-telling.

The history of the Romani is intertwined with that of other minority groups, particularly nomadic peoples of Europe and the Middle East. The Lom of Armenia and the Dom found throughout North Africa and the Middle East share commonalities with Romani and likely share an Indian origin. The Romani, Domari, and Lomavren languages are thought to have originated from the same group of Central Indian languages. The term Gypsy has historically also been applied to other European nomadic peoples such as Irish Travellers and the Yenish of Western Europe, who have different origins than the Romani.

Continue reading...

[dykepuffs]

Hello! Hope I'm not bothering you but I found your post about "How Do I Make My Fictional Gypsies Not Racist?" and I wanted to ask you something if it's ok with you. The post cached my attention because you use the term gypsy with easiness and I'm curious about how it's that, because as far as the internet says it's a derogatory term.

It's not the first time I've seen somebody use that word, but the person who used it was Roma, if I remember correctly.

This is absolutely not to accuse you of anything, I just want to know your perspective! Thank you and have a nice day!

Hallo!

Yes, I hoped I'd answered this is my main post but, I'll answer it more explicitly and from more angles here - It'll be in sections because I have a lot of thoughts and they're not in any particular order.

I won't be using asterisks to obscure any words in this post, because precision is important and I don't want to leave any ambiguities about which words I mean, so CN for words for Romani people that are often derogatory, for the rest of the post.

1) Is Gypsy a derogatory word?

Gypsy is an untranslatable word, in that the exact lexical field covered by "Gypsy" isn't matched by any words in other languages. Sometimes, people translate tzigane, gitano, zigeuner, cíkanská etc as "Gypsy" but that's really imprecise and causes more problems - These words aren't all calques or related.

The ones which sound broadly like "sigan" (Cigan, tzigane, zigeuner, cíkanský etc) most likely come via the Balkans and the Ancient Greek word "Athinganoi/Athinganos" - Unambiguously a rude word, untouchable, a caste of itinerant fortune-tellers in the Byzantine Empire, which was applied much in the same way as "Tink/tinker" was applied to Scottish and Irish Travellers - a trade as a synecdoche of a people, and specifically a stigmatised trade at that. And they usually are very much derogatory words (but even then - you will meet Roma living in Romania and Hungary and Czechia etc who do use those words for themselves, and they will have as complicated a relationship with them as we do with Gypsy)

Gypsy... We're less sure. We know it comes from "Egyptians", first applied in Scotland and England to recent Romani migrants in the late 1400s or early 1500s (We see it in the naming of the Egyptians Acts in 1501 and 1531, which refer to both Egyptians and "Counterfeit Egyptians" - Meaning those Romani people, and the local Britons who lived with them, travelled with them and did the same itinerant trades. Presumably, the "Counterfeit Egyptians" of the previous 500 years intermixing with Romani people are why modern Romany (Romanichal, Angloromany, English Travellers, whatever you call us) are so pale compared to southern and eastern European Roma.

But why "Egyptians", we aren't really sure. Top contenders are:

1) The Romani people deliberately passed themselves off as Coptic Egyptians, hoping for welcome as fellow-Christians.

2) Local Britons mistook these brightly-dressed dark-skinned people, speaking an unknown language, for Egyptians.

3) To someone who spoke English, and maybe could recognise French, Dutch, Latin or other especially northern European trading languages, the Romanes language of the time that was closer to Hindi, with Greek and Romanian loanwords, would sound unintelligible - We think that's where we get the English word "Jibberish" and "Jibber" from, from the Romanes word "chib/jib"-"Language". But, potentially, does "Gypsy" come from "Jib-sy", taking the common English slang format of adding "-ies" "-sie" to the end of something to make a name for something from a feature of it (Like "walky-talky" for a portable two way radio, "bluey" to describe a merled dog, "pinky" for a mouse or rabbit before it has fur, "Geordie" and "Cockney" and various other local demonyms) - Potentially we are "The ones that speak the chib" - "the chibsies".

4) It was related to a preexisting racial slur, the idea of "Egyptian" to mean a bizarre, foreign, alien version of something- Hermetics were often called "Egyptian" around the same period, because of their strange rites and beliefs, which were popularly associated with Egypt (As was Hermes Trismagestus).

5) The port area in the Netherlands where they sailed to Scotland from was potentially "Little Egypt" and they were named as such for their port of departure, as migrations are often named for their port of arrival, or departure, or the boat they came on - like talking about Plymouth colonists, Windrush generation, Ellis Island immigrants.

What we do know though, is that the first people that the word Gypsy was applied to, were the ancestors of the modern English-speaking Romany and Kale people of Scotland, England and Wales (ie, my personal ancestors) - Most of whom use "Gypsy" as their preferred word to describe themselves. (Further complications: Other Traveller groups in the UK who also in some contexts will call themselves Gypsies, Water-Gypsies, Irish Gypsies, Gypsy Travellers, who may or may not see themselves as Romani but who often have interlaced family trees and traditions with Romanichal and Kale families.)

Personally, as a Romany Gypsy I usually call myself a Gypsy in English for two reasons:

1) Because in singular, I'd have to choose rom/rawni - not just man/woman but also husband/wife, because our words for adult man/adult woman are the same as the word for husband/wife, and I usually don't want to do that; I'm unmarried, but too old to call myself chavo, and I usually don't want to be explicit about my gender in that way anyway.

2) because the other words for us in English are Romani loanwords. The Romani language is still stigmatised in England, and doubly so Angloromanes, our paralanguage/mixed-language/creole - Children raised speaking it are described as being in "linguistic poverty", we are disciplined at school for "speaking in code" (i still have a speech impediment in Romanes that I don't have in English, after being tortured and humiliated by teachers at school for speaking Romanes. Even getting out a couple of words, I stutter and fail, from shame) - and the police and courts describe our language as "thieves' cant" and further punish us for speaking it, they still treat people speaking it as evidence of planning crimes, a final vestige of those Egyptians Acts which levied the death sentence on anyone speaking Romany.

So when a gorjer prefers that I call myself Rromani rather than Gypsy, I hear that as a demand to perform my language for them, for their titillation and for their comfort, so that they can try to forget that for hundreds of years we have been executed, imprisoned, transported, beaten, and treated as second class citizens, for speaking our language. So, no, gorjers don't get to hear one single beautiful word of our language, they can hear "Gypsy" and their ears can burn with the shame of what they still do to us.

So is Gypsy a word that gorjers should use?

Context matters.

Are you talking about an organisation like the Gypsy Lore Society, or a modern Gypsy And Traveller Exchange, or things made by us like Gypsy Pegs, Gypsy Flowers, Gypsy Bangles, Gypsy Jazz? Go for it, use the capital G, in the same way as you capitalise French food, German engineering, Ukrainian poetry. If an organisation describes itself as being for Roma, don't assume that you can translate that to 'for Gypsies', but likewise you can't assume that 'for Gypsies' can be translated to 'for Roma' - All Roma are Romani, not all Romani are Roma (As in, they might be Sinti, Manouche, Roma, Romanisael, Kale, Romany... etc).

Do you want to describe something made by gorjers as Gypsy-like, or describe a gorjer as being like a Gypsy... Then don't.

There is probably a second post to write about this, on the theory of "Gypsy-ing", how the archetype of the Gypsy is created and applied to populations in different ways, but this is already very long and very tiring so, thank you for bearing with me this far!