#This being that people don't treat trans mens issues seriously

[2prince2sparkle]

Losing my mind hearing that people think being punitively misgendered as they/ them only happens to she/her trans women and not also he/ him trans men

Edit: glad I dug through the shitty comments enough to find op saying she didn't mean the phrasing of a particular sentence to imply this didn't happen to trans men, she wasn't expecting the post to blow up and was just writing about the things she's experiencing in a casual rant way. Internet ok sometimes. (Still other people in the comments thinking the above though.)

[batmanisagatewaydrug]

The "what if a cishet romantic man wanted to come to queer meetings" thing was one of the things that helped me (a trans man) see how marginalised men's masculinity is weaponised against us. Because the hypothetical cishet aro man isn't being constructed as dangerous because he's feminine or related to womanhood in any way; he's constructed because his deviance means he's "missing" something that's "supposed to keep the bad parts of men in check". This isn't to say that aro women don't get shit, they absolutely do, it was just a real turning point in my personal understanding of marginalised masculinities

yeah specifically re: the deviance factor, I remember a lot of the strawman arguments around the hypothetical cisgender heterosexual allosexual aromantic man being "allowed" in queer spaces hinged on the assumption that this man would also be a pseudo sexual predator bent on hooking up with as many women as possible and then using his aromantic status as an excuse to ghost or otherwise treat them badly. frequently this came with speculation that cishet men would falsely claim aromantic identity, so as to have a built-in excuse for such behavior and shut down any potential objections.

which is like. I mean, it's bullshit for a lot of reasons.

one of the most egregious issues to me is the audacity of people acting like hanging out in a queer space with the intent of having sex is some kind of evil invasive force, as if many queer spaces, historically, have no been organized around the principal of trying to fuck and be fucked, and as if plenty of those hookups haven't led to ghostings or breakups exactly as careless and hurtful as the proposed scenario involving our cis allo aro man would be, but it's supposedly worse because he's? a yucky man? the increasing distrust of sexual attraction in many young, allegedly left-leaning spaces is its own alarming beast and I don't want to get into the whole thing here, but jesus christ.

I just. I cannot take seriously the idea that I'm supposed to be threatened by a man who MIGHT exist and MIGHT want to have sex with someone, and make any serious decisions based on the specter of this guy possibly being out there somewhere. get a grip.

[transfemme-shelterdog]

i'm still thinking about that argument about how "trans men are men and therefore get treated better, and saying other is denying the patriarchy" because WHAT?

are we not forgetting that not all men have the same access to male privilege? disabled men do not have the same access to male privilege. men of color don't, either– historically, black men have been called "boys" because they were denied manhood. cis gay men don't have the same access to male privilege either. while this is all on varying scales and can depend on the individual– the fact is that, if you don't fit into the cishet white able-bodied notion of hegemonic masculinity, then you don't have the same access to male privilege.

and this is assuming that trans men are even SEEN as men, which we by and large are not. it sucks, but it's true: even if we are from an individual standpoint, we aren't from a societal standpoint. privilege is not on an individual level. privilege is structural. if trans men had male privilege, where are the trans male politicians on the state and federal level? where are the trans male landlords and billionaires? ...yeah, exactly.

it's insane to me that we even have to argue about this.

The issue is that people take "macro" theory, and apply it to "micro".

For example, sociology. It's usually macro level (studies society as a whole), while psychology is typically micro level (studies the individual) [outliers of course exist such as family sociology, and group psychology, but I digress]

Patriarchy and male privilege, is a macro level theory. Men, as a whole, usually have access to certain privileges that women usually don't. For example, being taken seriously by your doctor when you say "Hey doc, this hurts, I think something may be wrong". Too many horror stories of women dying of stage 4 cancer or bleeding to death because the doctor wrote her off as being "dramatic". You don't see this often with men.

But, it's not a theory that can be applied to individual men, as the human experience is too complex to slap a macro theory onto it.

That's the issue. These people assume that general theories about privilege can be applied to each and every single male, whether cis, trans, disabled, POC, white, etc, when in fact, the theory around privilege and patriarchy wasn't built for micro level application.

These people are trying to force a round peg into a square hole.

[velvetvexations]

Mother Velvet I just saw someone being very wrong about transandrophobia and I am being soooooo strong by resisting my desire to message them with a correction. I want, very badly, to (gently) correct their misunderstanding of what transandrophobia is and what people are actually arguing for. Unfortunately I am also of the knowledge that this is probably not a misunderstanding and that they would not listen to anything I say, and that even a gentle "hey that's not what people talking about transandrophobia are saying, that's not the conversation being had" would cause an argument that does more damage to me than just seeing them be wrong in the first place.

I want to say, no, transandrophobia isn't about men being the PRIMARY target of misogyny, that's not what we're saying! I won't say nobody is saying that because someone inevitably will have bad ideas about things, but the broad conversation around transandrophobia is that transphobes see us as women trying to be men and treating us with both misogyny (for being a woman incorrectly, and just having been born female to begin with), and malgendering us (for the crime of trying to be men, which is ontologically impossible for a silly wombyn to do and therefore must be corrected by showing that Dumb Idiot Baby Girl how impossible it is to ever really be a man). It is not, really, seriously not, about how transmascs are the real primary target of misogyny and everyone else is just collateral. It is not us wanting to be the victim, or wanting to barge into marginalized spaces and control the conversation to make it All About Men. It is not trying to argue that misandry is a systemic force. It is not equivalent to being an MRA blaming feminism for the suffering of men.

People talk a lot about how transmascs have a "toxic masculinity problem" and think that it's, like, some inherent aspect of being a man, or that we're trying so hard to be men that we uncritically repeat and reinforce toxic masculinity. As if trans people of all stripes aren't forced to perform the highest standards of their gender in order to be recognized as their gender, as if it's somehow unheard of for trans men to be forced to perform the height of masculinity in order to be recognized as men. Trans men are held to a higher standard of masculinity than cis men because we have to prove to the transphobe that we're "real" men! Cis men already have to perform masculinity to an extreme degree under threat of degendering, do people think that just doesn't exist for trans men? That it isn't worse for us (compared to the cis man) because degendering is misgendering and we have to fight tooth and nail for every shred of recognition as men? The only problem people are willing to accept transmascs have is the toxic masculinity issue, and that is at best seen as a very bad personal failing (and at worst an inherent aspect of Being A Man, and so also a personal failing for anyone who would "want" to be a man; the thought, even from other trans people, is that we "chose" this and so it's the bed we must lie in). Because we are men, because men have no problems, because transmascs trying to discuss their experiences with misogyny are just trying to take from women, trying to control the conversation and deny the reality that others are targeted too.

The idea that transandrophobia is saying we're the primary targets of misogyny is wrong, and I'm being so restrained by not saying anything to that person, not trying to correct them, because even though it's eating me up inside I would be even more hurt by whatever they say to dig in their heels as a response to me. (I sincerely hate that my autism will not let me let go of this stuff! I wish it would stop and that I could see people have Different or even Factually Wrong Opinions about the world without feeling personally betrayed but here I fucking am I guess; this isn't the first time I've come to your inbox to vent about it, I don't have anywhere to talk about these feelings so all I have been able to do with them is suffer through them until I can shove them into the little box in the back of my brain and hope I don't get intrusive reminders of them)

Y'know, I've experienced a lot of transphobic violence, from the emotional to physical. I was kicked out of my home by family members. I had to fight to be accepted as I am, and still have to fight because I don't pass, can't bind my GGG-cup breasts for medical reasons, am too disabled, too short, too mentally ill, too autistic. I was prepared for that, I knew I would be fighting an uphill battle. Trauma doesn't work right for me, I don't find stuff traumatic that should be, and do find stuff traumatic that shouldn't be; because I was prepared, because I knew what I was getting into and knew I would be happier as a man anyway, I have not been traumatized by the transphobia I have faced.

What I was not prepared for, what has stuck with me longer and hurt me more than being thrown out of my own home or threatened or beaten, was how other trans people treated me. How alone I was in a support club for the trans community at my university, in a class about trans art with nothing to show for trans men but boys don't cry and a drag race supercut from the professor's boyfriend, being told I was the wrong kind of trans for the community around me, that nobody knew what to do with me, and treated me like I was an invader desecrating some sacred soil.

In trying to talk about my suffering, I am taking up valuable space that could be given to someone else, someone who is not a man. In talking about the issues I have faced within the trans community, I am attacking trans women, trying to steal misogyny and claim I'm the primary target. It doesn't matter what I say, how gently I try to correct them, how much proof I have that those are not the conversations or goals of discussion, because that's what they want to believe about transmascs. That's the vision of transandrophobia they have. There is no way for me to change the mind of someone who willfully misinterprets what I'm saying.

I'll at least put this in the tag this so people can see it. <3

Transandrophobes are constantly assuming the most bad faith interpretations of what's being said and it's so exhausting even to observe. They're unthinking zombies reblogging second-hand shit about terms they have zero understanding of. It's infuriating just to observe let alone experience first hand.

[sualne]

i kind of want to ramble a bit about being underweight and the way people treated me changed as i socially transitioned and aged.

for quick context i was literally born underweight, i'd been starving to death in the womb and needed to get out early, a doctor even said it was too late, that i was already dead, that was not the case.

anyway for as long as i remember people would always comment on how thin i was, as a kid it didn't mean much but approaching puberty the "you need to eat more" turned into "people would kill to have a body like yours" comments about having a wasp waist among more disturbing ones, i socially transitioned as 16, i was getting those comment at 12. i still got remarks about how i should gain weight but it was always accompanied by this "but not too much, you need to stay thin, thin is good." sentiment so gaining weight was never truly seen as an actual emergency, something that should actually happen, it was more of a reflex sort of comment, people didn't mean it too seriously.

that changed when people started seeing me as a man, suddenly i was not so thin and fragile, so feminine and pretty i was visibly weak and unmanly and that pisses the shit out of other (older) men. now people really meant it when they say i should gain weight but unlike before that vaguely "i'm worried for your health (but you look much better like this anyway so don't change it)" sentiment disappeared, it was all about performing masculinity properly, about becoming a muscular big strong manly man. you see it all the time, thinness being associated with femininity, even trans people who should know better keeps on going "wow so gender" to people who are only just being thin and otherwise pretty damn conforming. obviously a lot of this depends where you live.

now this also the moment i need to mention thinphobia isn't a thing, people don't actually care about the fact that you're thin, it's about failing to meet gender role's standards and looking visibly sick which get people Really uncomfortable, they don't want to be reminded disabled & chronically ill people exist. fatphobia is genuinely and purely about hating the fact that fat people exist, they don't actually give the slightest shit about possible health issues they're just dipshits, those are excuses to pretend it's justified so they can feel better about themselves, it's also systemic and get people killed all the time. doctor might tell me gaining some weight couldn't do me any bad but they've never insisted it was the sole and only reason for every single one of my issues, they usually don't even mention it all.

i don't have a point or conclusion for this.

[sickofthis666]

Man, I miss when tumblr wasn’t the "t4t" website. Now we only got girld*ck jokes and trans rights are the only social issue that's worth mentionning, apparently. It's obvious if only by seeing the amount of posts, pinned posts, and bios with the mention "terfs/transphobes dni".

As an afterthought, some may add racists, ableists and/or homophobics to their little list. Sexism doesn't even appear.

Reading users bios, it's like everyone on this website is trans now - see also, reblogs of people's own post years later with the mention "im a girl now :3" - even though statistically, they're... what? 2% of the population?

Meanwhile somehow half of said population doesn't deserve to fight for their rights. BLM vanished but fear not, TLM is there. Online feminism peaked in 2016 with "the future is female" and #MeToo ended with a lot of calling out by victims but very little consequences for the abusers.

Your brain won't explode if you campaign for more than one cause at a time, I promise.

Old sexism was "your biology determines your behavior". New sexism is "your behavior determines your biology". Same result. Same harmful stereotypes. Some things are meant to harm, no matter how much you want to reclaim them or have fun sounding quirky by using insults/politically incorrect language. No, calling yourself a slut doesn't change from a man calling you that, because the very definition of that word is harmful. An insult doesn't stop being an insult because you enjoy it or because you decided to interpret it in a way that fits you, like religious leaders interprets scripture in a way that fits their interest.

We were supposed to get rid of the idea that women enjoying sex like men do is shameful, bad, disgusting, unnatural. We were supposed to make it neutral, just the way men get to have it, but nooo, you guys wanted to be quirky, rules breakers, special. Somehow you're convinced that doing the complete opposite of what society commonly deems acceptable automatically makes you cool, Good, right, and better than the others. It doesn't! It's not a dichotomy! Same thing with whore. Calling a man that moves his hands when he talks or has a high pitch or exaggerated manners "effeminate" makes you a misogynist and a homophobe, actually.

P*rn doesn't automatically becomes Good and healthy just because society frowns down upon it. Degrading women became a trend. God forbids you kinkshame, but somehow mocking vanilla sex is great, actually. Obviously vanilla must be Bad since it's the opposite of porn, and we all decided at some point that porn was Good. Can’t find f/m erotica on this website that doesn't include at least One sentence specifying how the woman is degraded/seen like a toy/less than human by the man. It's Very Important.

The solution to "women shouldn't have to wear make up to be considered seriously/human" wasn’t "women like their cage actually", it was destroying the cage or put the men in it with us. Cause that is the definition of gender equality. Treating men and women the same regardless of gender.

Hijab will never be feminist as long as men don't wear it too. It's the difference of treatment, simply because of gender, that is sexism/misogyny. The intention of the wearer doesn't matter - the result does.

"Taking your husband's last name isn’t sexist because *I* would be honored to do it" affirmed a woman to me - Since when does sexism mean "mentality/behavior/outfit/etc that all women as a mindhive dislike"? Oh wait - it doesnt - never did; it means difference of treatment between genders, overwhelmingly balanced in favor of men. The day men don't see taking your wife's last name as emasculating, degrading, insulting, belittling, diminishing, disgracing, shameful; the day they take their wife's last name spontaneously, almost systematically, the way women do; the day merely suggesting the idea to them isn’t preposterous;

the day women don't see taking your husband's name, as honorable, normal, the bare minimum, the day women stop taking their husband's name almost systematically, because it's an evidence in their eyes; the day women are not pushed to take their husband's name because it makes administration's work easier, because it's the only way for them to prove that they're related to their children - when i was a little kid, school staff once refused to let me leave with my mom at the end of the day simply because, since she hadn't taken my father's name, obviously she couldnt possibly be my legitimate mother; that "incident" lead to her renounciating her own name; before that, she hadn't entertained the thought; - the day french civil service stops differentiating between Nom d'épouse (wife name) and Nom de jeune fille (maiden name), making marriage an event so decisive in a woman's life that it changes her status; whereas men are born, live and die with only one name, their own, and no one else's.

That day only, we'll be able to affirm that this part of society/culture/custom is not sexist anymore.

In favor of men, not because I hate men, or because women need someone to blame, or because men are inherently evil, but in favor of men because men have been ruling society for thousands of years. Our kings are men. Our presidents are men. Our Prime Ministers are men. Our religious leaders are men. Our CEOs are men. Billionaires are men. The most powerful and/or rich on this earth are men. And people in power, in a logical conclusion, decides measures that will favor themselves over others.

Feminity isn’t real. Masculinity isn’t real. Just like the economy, or borders, it's something humans made up. And yet it would never cross your mind to romanticize or fantasize about those concepts.

Boomers' sexism says "if you're a woman, you must act feminine." Gen Z's sexism says "If you're feminine, you must be a woman."

Feminism says "You'll always be a woman no matter what - but so what? You can do whatever you want."

This website is full of selfrighteous, full of themselves assholes who pretends to be Better than everyone else because they're sooo tolerent, sooo inclusive, they condemn nazis and terfs - but mostly terfs. Terfs never commited murders, contrary to neonazis/white supremacists/incels, but that is but a detail my friend - vigorously, they boycott JKR absolutely - but not their favorite rapist male artists/authors/actors/singers -, they have the moral High Ground. Yet the second they smell an Enemy, someone who doesn't adopt 100% of their causes, verbatim, no holds barred! Anything goes! Death threats, rape threats, stalking, doxxing, going after family members... calling The Other, the Villain - of course they're the villain, since I am the Good Guy and they're against Me! - names, a loser, ugly, fat, a virgin, who can’t get laid/p*ssy. Yes I said Asexuals were a part of the community, what does this have to do with anything? Death and rape threats are okay if they come from My mouth!

[woman-respecter]

the similarities between hatred of women and hatred of jews is crazy because misogyny and antisemitism are both treated as "a weapon meant to silence" and if people especially on the left are accused of either, they immediately jump to "everything is antisemitism/misogyny now🙄"

of course this applies to all hatreds but it's worse for us because to the left racism is inherently important (even though they are RACIST AS FUCK) but misogyny and antisemitism to them feels made up and stupid lol (in some cases people even treat homophobia this way by saying you can play straight but you can't hide your race).

i wish i could put this better but the example that comes to mind is leftist men. leftist men do not take misogyny or antisemitism seriously (or anything tbh). when i talk to "leftist" men in music forums and i tell them hey you're being misogynistic (women have to teach them how to be human beings apparently), they go "nooo i can't be. also. white women like taylor swift cry misogyny all the time!" THIS PISSES ME OFF SO BAD.

it gets worse. this one time a gay guy tried to tell me he couldn't be misogynistic because he had a stan account for women LOL. he also said "women on stan twitter call everything misogyny when it comes to their faves". so? SO?! (off topic but as a lesbian, queer culture is so misogynistic and it's such a shame because yes this does include drag queens/trans people but how can we even try to fix it when you have the conservatives on one side and the terfs on the other ugh. i want to criticize my people without those groups thinking i'm one of them! this is a serious issue because every time i do, a transphobe appears like fawk off but then other queers don't want to acknowledge the misogyny)

i could go on and on but anyways i hate men and the gay community is a mess!

oh yes i feel this completely, i feel like misogyny and antisemitism are so much more widely accepted than any other type of bigotry on the left and it drives me crazy. at this point it’s almost REQUIRED to belittle women/jews to be taken seriously as a leftist.

and holy shit many such cases of those leftist male “music fans” with terminal taylor swift derangemenr syndrome that use her as a target/excuse for misogyny. i kinda wish all of them were tied to a chair and forced to listen to me! until they blow their brains out

[butch-bakugo]

Its not a shock to me that most "transandrophobia doesn't exist" people are trans women, mostly white trans women. They have a very specific image of what a trans man looks like and it's only two categories: the hyper fem, tits out, make up, twink trans man who doesn't pass nor try to and the hyper masculine, bearded, t'd up, all the surgeries, big buff trans man who you could never clock. They genuinely think every "transandrophobia truther" is lieing about not getting privileges they don't fucking have.

They genuinely believe every trans man passes and therefore we get male privilege and they get backed up by trans men who do pass and think a cis man making rape jokes with them and asking about their lift set is male privilege. Lemme shatter the illusion because as much as you like to scream about some wide spread privilege that doesn't exist, most trans people, in general, do not pass. This is especially true for trans men due to the hyperfocus society puts on feminine features. I have never met a fully passing trans man and I've met over a hundred personally irl. never. I know they exist but the fact y'all think we, en masse, get male privilege is factually just fucking wrong.

Trans men are not more acceptable or palatable to transphobes. Trans men are not more likely to pass. Trans men in mass do not get male privilege by virtue of our lack of passing and our medical history. Most trans men are still affected by the gender pay gap and thus can not afford surgeries.

You do not acknowledge the existence of non-passing trans men, only uphold the voices of trans men who pass and have the money for surgeries (a small percentage) then wonder why trans men laugh in your face when you make claims about male privilege we do not experience.

We are more likely to be conversionally raped than you. We are more like to be forcibly detransioned than you. We are more likely to experience domestic violence than you. We are more likely to experience hate crimes than you.

Trans men's hyper visibility in online spaces dose not transfer to real life visibility. You are more likely to see white cis gay men and white trans women in any media or ever mentioned than even white cis lesbians or white trans men. Your rhetoric is the origin of the "theyfab" myth. Our issues are invisible to you cause you do not care about other trans people besides yourself and other transfems. Everyone and their trans mother knows about transmysogny and the issues you personally face yet you expect trans men to be silent about their issues and feel like they should be silent because they are men. Trans men are more likely to experience litterally all forms of violence over trans women in every single avenue of violence that exists; religious, sexual, domestic, familial, etc. We are more likely to be stopped and abused before we socially transtion than anyone else due to hyper vigilance of society over afabs. You can scream all you'd like about how we only bring up our sex/the gender we are often raised as when it's convenient but you always ignore those often traumatizing experiences when it's convenient for you.

Many Transmascs and trans men had a traumatizing upbringing because society views us as "bad women" and " bad women" get treated so much worse and by many more angles than "bad men" specifically because we were forcibly assigned as women. You take advantage of a lack of nuance in the community by trying to group us with cis men specifically because you group yourself with cis women. News flash, neither of us and our experiences should be grouped with ANY cis group because we do not have cisgendered experiences.

I seriously think you think you are the most oppressed group in the trans community and you are not, not by a long shot. You are not the most oppressed group in the transgender community and that's a statistical fact. The most oppressed group, by far, are two spirits and cultural genders by virtue of them being inherently indigenous and indigenous people being the most oppressed race of people in the community regardless of the location they are indigenous to.

You are literally taking advantage of the things that were drilled into transmascs at a young age to be seen and not heard and to be quiet and let others talk, that they are lesser than everyone. Everyday there's a new story in the community of a cis man or a trans woman getting a trans man/masc pregnant to hurt them or force them off t or to detransion, this is not a fucking accident. You are not men, no one ever said you were, but you sure love to silence them like they do.

I'm not quiet, you do not intimately know our issues the same way we do not intimately know yours, You don't get to tell us what we do and don't experience and the fact you'd rather cry wolf and suspiciously call us "bitches" than hear us out, tells me everything i need to know. That alt right to trans woman pipeline you said you escaped? Yeah, you didn't. Ur just an alt right trans woman, Try Again.

[starstuffandalotofcoffee]

hey, can we avoid absolute statements about "terf" being "meaningless"? obviously it gets misused and distorted, like many other terms. but in reality there are many feminist-identified cis people who explicitly or implicitly see trans people's existence as anti-feminist and unworthy of feminist goals. the right has successfully exploited this view to pull people into their generally transphobic agenda, but the phenomenon also exists on the left, even among those who otherwise call themselves trans allies. if we want the left to defend trans people, be a political home for trans people, we all have more reason than ever to notice and resist this type of thinking. please let's keep a little perspective.

I mean this very seriously: I do not know who you are at all, and I have not made any original posts. This is a conversation you should be having with OP.

With that said, this post, which I assume is the one you're talking about, is literally saying "call people transphobes if they are transphobic." Period. End of Sentence. It does not say "this is exclusively a right-wing phenomenon." It does not say "you should not call out transphobia in feminist spaces." The issue is that many people have successfully conflated being a transphobic radical feminist with being a feminist at all, or alternately conflate being a general run of the mill shithead rightwing transphobe with being a radical feminist. It is horrifyingly common for people online to call outright "we must get up the birthrate/women are property" types "terfs" instead of "misogynist homophobic transphobes".

like...OP, for example, has been a big proponent of 4B. and you know what, I have complicated feelings about that because I'm someone in my mid-30s who really didn't think I wanted children until quite recently, and am single and am having a lot of difficult personal considerations that this election has complicated even further. but I do support women who are choosing 4B. and that includes trans women. And it is people from the left who are attacking 4B as transphobic (vs. people on the right who are just attacking it bc they are misogynists who think women should submit to men) even though it is about avoiding sex and children and marriage with men. If you think that trans women are women then you should automatically think that trans women can be 4B and can be partners of people who are 4B. If you see the word "woman" and don't automatically assume it means "trans women" that is on you, and in fact I think it will be more effective to fight these transphobic self-identified feminists by, instead of acting in bad faith and assuming that whenever any feminist says "men" they mean "cis men and trans women" and therefore by extension assuming all feminists are inherently transphobic unless they shout from the rooftops "NO, WHEN I SAY WOMEN I ALSO MEAN TRANS WOMEN", using the word "women" and assuming anyone who isn't a violent bigot knows that trans women are part of that group.

(obviously if you are trans I understand that you might need to do a calculus based on context clues, in the same way that any oppressed minority needs to confirm that spaces do in fact include them. It is not different than how I as a Jewish woman need to sus out if non-denominational/secular/interfaith means "not anti-semitic"; this post is not about that.)

There are people who identify as radical feminists who are trans-exclusive. I personally think TERF is not a useful term anymore BECAUSE if you are not for ALL bodily autonomy for ALL women you are not a feminist. Being trans-exclusive should, in my opinion, take away your feminism card. We should treat them as transphobic infiltrators in feminist spaces, and not as feminists of any kind, radical or otherwise, and we should call them transphobes. That is what I mean, and that's what I think OP means. It is not a denial that there are self-identified feminists who are virulently transphobic (and specifically transmisogynist). It is saying "we need to stop calling these assholes feminists and start using the word 'transphobe' across the board, regardless of the other political beliefs they may have or claim to have." When it's not uncommon for people to call both Putin a TERF AND actual trans people who (correctly) point out that "uterus-havers" is a really alienating way to talk about people who can potentially get pregnant TERFs, yeah, I think it's worth retiring the term. This isn't a denial of the reality; it's saying that the specific word isn't used to reflect that reality in a meaningful way.

[mr-ribbit]

"um I've experienced misogyny too so actually I'm NOT out of line for telling you to shut your stupid bitch mouth and stop whining about your problems"

people who experience misogyny can absolutely perpetuate and perform misogyny

people who experience misogyny can absolutely be unaware of what forms misogyny takes for others

people who experience misogyny can absolutely have ulterior motives and biases that make them feel justified about subjecting other people to more misogyny

fucked up: using your status as someone who is a woman, seen as a woman, treated as a woman, or otherwise affected by misogyny as an excuse to be completely immune to criticism about your misogynistic behavior

cool: using your status as someone affected by misogyny to show solidarity to others also affected by it, take misogyny seriously when you see it, and try your best to unlearn misogynistic behaviors youre capable of wielding against others

as a tme person that does experience misogyny on a regular basis, I fucking hate misogyny. why would I ever want to wield that against another person for any reason, no matter what I thought about them? it's not okay. it's not solidarity. it's objectively hypocrisy and it fucking sucks to be willing to do that to someone else.

why the fuck do I legitimately see people on this website claiming that they can't be misogynistic (usually just bc they're afab) while saying shit like "stop complaining about men so much it hurts their feelings" "Not All Men are oppressors" "omg calm down stop over reacting" "ugh I'm so sick of hearing them talk about this" "they just won't shut their mouths!" "stop arguing and let's have sex" "you should really be nicer if you want people to listen to you"

like literally all of these are examples I've seen TODAY, not to mention hundreds of other times every week

so are you all gonna keep being radicalized by literal misogynists or are you gonna suck it up and show some fucking compassion when discussing issues you don't understand or disagree with? are you gonna join the oppressors you claim you aren't a part of, or are you going to actually read that trans woman's post next time before dismissing her as crazy and uninformed? are you even going to try to think about her point or are you going to tell her to get back in the kitchen on anon? are you going to pretend you're an expert on all forms of sexism or are you going to genuinely try to listen, share, and make a nicer world?

[daydreamodyssey]

This ended up being longer than I planned, so I'm sorry beforehand. It was about a whatever video of a girl using heightism, saying something stupid but possibly insidious, and me reflecting on our culture toward smallness, particularly with men and how it deals with gender.

(There's a fun present for those who read the whole thing, I promise!)

I saw a tiktok of a girl candidly and cheerfully saying she'd never date a short guy (5'8 or below, she was 5'2) because of a Napoleon complex.

Standard stuff, though still crossing into prejudice.

But then she goes off, in a chipper mood, about deleting them. That really stuck with me.

Best scenario, she just means deleting them off dating sites. Which is still crass and wouldn't fly if she said something similar about other attributes.

Worst scenario, which wouldn't be the first time I heard it, she means literally and physically delete them. She was talking to a guy out on the streets too, so this isn't done terminally online jerk. A lot of women saying they want men dead isn't cute or funny.

I hope people understand that having a preference or having a bad history with whatever group are different than this rhetoric. Even if that person can control something, as opposed to the near permanence of height, it shouldn't mean this group is inherently bad. The issue is the personality, not how long your limbs are or what genes you have. It's a really weird bioessentialism that says if you look different than your gender norm, you are a suspect and a creep in waiting.

There's also this other connection with many men smaller than (the US) average being men of color, which can have a racist and nativist tone. And since height can be affected by the environment, along with making many short people less likely to have high paying jobs and roles, there's probably a classist element, too. A lot of trans men are also short if you want to include transphobia, who already get barely any acknowledgement about how they're treated.

With a lot of women saying "it's in our genes or brains," and one I saw saying for short men to Stay In The Gym, there is this unspoken rule that men MUST be large and dominant or they're not seriously men. With the whole obsession over genetics and strong men, there is a dangerous overlap with trad and fascist ideals, especially with how radical right wing propaganda works (in the 30s/40s and now with the Chad Trad shit).

I don't think a lot of people, men or women, consciously think about this stuff. They could just be shallow assholes. But smallness is almost always seen as infantilism or criminality with no nuance in humanizing, let alone respect as lovers and workers. Maybe there's some taboo part of our private brain that still latches onto "big = strong against predators and rivals" and we don't want to admit and question it like with women and how we judge their looks.

When people say Napoleon complex, it's always vague, like it can mean anything from being aggressive to just being confident to someone taller. It doesn't mean anything and it just causes a Catch 22; you either accept your place on the arbitrary social ladder or you're insecure and in the spotlight. You can't win because you're not supposed to win.

For every short jerk, there's also a tall jerk. A tall jerk who has popularity, fans, girls, money, and literally more weight to throw around. Am I surprised there's a preference? No. I can still be upset about it because I'm human and I'm naturally going to be mad at things that feel unfair and need leverage. And I'm going to be upset when it feels ignored or derided because people don't want to admit they have biases that are more socially acceptable. I'm going to be upset that I and others who are around my height or even shorter have to push limits every day just be treated equally. I can't imagine having dwarfism and seeing these videos or hearing others on the street.

I hear pretty much everything from "short men are rapists for wanting women to be attracted to them" to eugenics and wanting us just dead. There's definitely other traits that compound the toll on a person (weight for myself) that can be greater or lesser, but it's definitely consistent and I've been seeing it rise over the years after some acceptance in the mid '10s.

We need to have honest conversations and reflections about our relationship with size and what it means to be a man. If you want to abolish the patriarchy but still insult a guy because he doesn't look as big and strong and dominant as other men, then you're playing the same side as the men in power or manosphere chuds. The amount of radfems I see hating short men is honestly funny. Like there's no tall misogynists or abusers out there.

If short men, or just A short man messed you up, I'm sorry you had to go through that. But it wasn't like he was infected with the Small Virus, he might've been just a jerk, the same way tall people might be jerks. Just understand that you're overlooking many people because of a bad experience and how dangerously close that mentality is when applying to other people, or toward yourself.

If you read long enough, I congratulate you, and I offer you this one hell of a title I saw in a flea market the other day.

[fellasleepinbaltimore]

sometimes I get scared I don't know my family. I think I know how I am in a sense and in the future that might include making certain... hormonal changes yk if I ever get to that point but honestly I'm not rushing into anything and I'm not thinking too much about the future I think just the next year or two is as far forward as I can think. well anyway I'm sort of scared my family wouldn't be as accepting as I think they would be.

when I came out as gay my family didn't care but that was in like 2014, in a liberal state granted culturally it wouldn't be accepted but like I know I was lucky in a lot of ways but I also think being gay was easier to understand and accept yk. I get the sentiment that they'd accept me as I am, yk no matter what they'd have love for me. but I don't know if they'd understand me and I still have doubts they'd accept it.

like I've heard my dad talk about trans people before, he thinks nbs are like ridiculous and I honestly don't know that I've heard him talk about trans issues like seriously it's always as a joke like "pronouns now a days" or "well we don't know if he says he's a woman, you don't know how he identifies" and to me yeah this seems like at best he doesn't take it seriously or get it and at worst he doesn't believe trans people exist and thinks they're being ridiculous snowflakes or something. but it's also like my dad makes those jokes like he's called me a fag jokingly before and I'm not trying to be like "my dad isn't homophobic I swear" it would be easier to think he was but he isn't that's just how he is he thinks saying the most offensive anti pc culture thing is funny. I can't really say he's an ally tho? and idk how he treats other gay men but honestly I think sometimes... it rubs him the wrong way like in his heart I think there's a part of him that doesn't get it and doesn't like operate from an understanding that like gay people make up a fundamental part of the world. like it feels like a it doesn't really affect me so I don't think about it, my kids gay tho and I don't really care but I'm not putting any work in to like understand them or they're situation.

like the other day I got called a fag and I didn't tell him bc like I just didn't think he'd say the right thing like idk I thought he'd be like maybe they weren't saying it to you or idk what he even could have said but it feels like something I'd tell my father if I thought my father got it.

so if I were to like yk make the change I genuinely don't know how he'd react I think on one hand he'd think it was ridiculous like I mean when I did the gender marker (tbh I shouldn't have don't but honestly I needed to like have something to like idk y'all know what I mean) and he was like why'd you do that?! and I was like cos I wanted to and we didn't talk about it

and like I said I just don't think he gets it and I don't think he's interested in getting it by any means like. I don't think he cares what it's like to be a gay man or anything or a trans woman or whatever I don't know that idk

and he's said he doesn't care it isn't any of his business or whatever like I told him I was bi and he was like okay?? fuck do I care and like idk if that's like ughhh LIKE TOLERANCE IS NOT SUPPORT and it's not even tolerance it's apathy but like I know he's not apathetic either?? bc clearly he cares a little? so like idk he's the one I mostly worried about and that's mostly bc I live with him.

like I didnt even come out to him I came out to my siblings and my mom and that's it. I was living with my mom at the time so it felt more important to tell them and I cared more about their feelings and acceptance than my dad but mostly I was afraid to tell him so I didn't. but now I live with him and this is a kinda more hot button thing than being gay? kinda? not really tho I guess but idk. and no one like would be able to defend me bc they probably don't get it either! so it's like.

on one hand I feel like everyone would be relatively cool with trans shit but on the other hand I can see it being a like bigger subject especially if it was like me transitioning yk. like my dad doesn't care about like most of my friend or anything like that like I don't think he'd care much or at least he wouldn't say anything like he's usually polite or filters hisself so it's like idk he wouldn't like flip out on anyone I knew but it's also like I'm just I wish I could be sure he was a safe person like that's it

like I haven't even told anyone in my family really I'm nonbinary or what to change my name or any of that like it's just like... it feels so nitpicky to explain like when I was younger it's like yeah it mattered for them to know but now it's like if they don't get me they don't get it but maybe I'm afraid to say something too like I don't wanna have the conversation with them about what it means or what I'm really thinking about bc it's like I don't want to be told im being dramatic or clueless.

and he's kinda right like it doesn't really matter that much but also it's just a bullshit cop out to not have to talk about it like... I would have to draw a line and distance myself and pretend to be someone or something else with my family like... he thinks coming out is dumb it's no one's business and I agree it is no one's business but when you tell someone ur queer it's so they understand you better bc your understanding is important... and I don't think he gets it

I think my siblings would be ok with it like the idea and such they might not be perfect but yk they'd try I think and I think my mom would too even my stepdad might and I don't think my dad would reject me I just think he'd stand in the corner saying "alright if you say so" and then id have to endure transphobic jokes

and it doesn't matter how I feel. and as long as he's not paying for it I'm sure he wouldn't care.

[bubbelpop2]

Making my own post because someone disagreed with me and blocked me (which is fine)

I'm an intersex, autistic, queer leftist commie that was determined female at birth. (I hate that term but it's what I was labeled as) And I feel too afraid of women and men to show my pain in public sometimes. I feel compelled to perform masculinity in a certain way in front of people who believe men shouldn't cry or have problems that they can't solve. I have internal misandry.

And I've also experienced misandry from terfs, and from conservative clowns. I believe that men's issues under the patriarchy need to be taken seriously. I think we need to listen to men. We need to listen to trans men, cis men, intersex men, we need to listen to male leaning nonbinaries, other nonbinaries, and we need to listen to trans women who are considered men by transphobes and conservative clowns. We need to listen to trans women who grew up being so negatively affected by the patriarchy and so emotionally damaged by it, in so many ways.

And we deserve terminology for It. Misandry. Trans-Misogyny. Trans-androphobia. Men's rights. Trans rights. Women's rights. Feminism.

All of these terms have been used by stupid people for stupid things. Including feminism being used by terfs. Feminism needs to include trans women, and trans men, and cis men, and people of all genders. It should be about equality. The fact that it's called feminism doesn't mean that it's not about equality. I'm clearly not an uneducated conservative Christian 4chan loser just because I believe the term "misandry" has a real place. Misandry is a real thing. It hurts men. And it hurts me, and I'm a man. I deserve the ability to talk about the ways the patriarchy hurts me without others thinking I'm complaining about women getting treated equally. Because I'm not. My use of the term isn't about women. Anybody of any gender is capable of misandry, and perpetuating the issues of toxic masculinity under patriarchy.

I need to be able to talk about my experiences that hurt me. And so do other men of all kinds. And also people who aren't men who have experienced misandry. It's not about complaining that women get special treatment for their emotions. It's not about complaining that women are sensitive. It's about talking about how most men are expected by everyone, including themselves, to keep their mental health issues In-between them and their gun. They're not taught to articulate feelings. Literal actual children, four year olds that are crying, are punished for expressing upset emotions because they're boys. They're punished in school, by their peers and their teachers, for having upset or sad or angry emotions. They're not taught to breathe and cope and seek help for regulation.

These are real, actual, genuine issues that I try to help other men unravel and heal from. And I deserve to be able to talk about it in a way that's not just "toxic masculinity" because that implies that this phenomena is only perpetuated by toxic men. Which simply isn't true. Even the healthiest neurotypical mother is capable of it. She's capable of punishing a boy, a child, for crying. She's capable of demeaning him for having emotional issues. Capable of downplaying him, telling him to "just deal with it", and she's also very very capable of ignoring her husband's boundaries. Ignoring his comfort. Ignoring his emotional needs, and reducing his emotional needs down to sex and food and television. Which is disgusting.

I deserve to be able to use the term misandry without people thinking I'm a fourchan loser incel that hates women. I don't. I have a fear of them, because I've been abused by them. Both at home, in school, and at work. I've been made extremely uncomfortable by them, too. By this one girl my age who was really pushy when she was flirting with me, and made me feel unsafe enough that I needed to say "I have a girlfriend" (i did not)

[velvetvexations]

I think the idea of "binary privilege" is very caught up in a certain idea of privilege that is all or nothing and Adds tangible benefits as opposed to simply meaning someone doesn't face a specific form of harm. There's multiple types of privilege imo and there's some where it's like ok yeah it's a privilege not to face X but not in a way that truly confers Active benefits. Like do transmascs on average have the "privilege" of not primarily facing transmisogyny specifically? Kinda. But does that make transmascs "privileged"? Not really. Like transfemmes on average have the "privilege" of not primarily facing transandrophobia but same as vice versa, but it's like okay is it a privilege to be facing a different but similar form of oppression? It's like asking which is the privilege, hypervisibility or hyperinvisibility, but neither is actually, truly privilege. Or for a more specific example, is it a privilege to have transmisogynystic caricatures in media to know that trans women are a thing in a way that leads to knowing you're trans but also causes emotional harm, or never finding out about the concept of trans men and not being able to conceptualize of ftm transition which leads to never knowing what you are which causes emotional harm. Neither benefits the person who ends up harmed by society, but it is Technically a privilege not to face one even if you do face the other.

Then for nonbinary people and exorsexism, binary people do, often, not face certain struggles that nonbinary people often do, and should keep that in mind. Binary people have the option to be gendered correctly by m/f paperwork and the like and can more easily exist in the framework of cis minds, etc, but that doesn't make them not trans or erase other negative things they face. There's no absolutes in this. Many binary trans people will face issues that nonbinary trans people don't and vice versa. It's simply a difference to keep in mind, but it's not an oppressed/oppressor privilege dynamic like some privileges are. The no nuance view of privilege just erases positive conversations that can be had that can help strengthen the fight against transphobia of all types.

Following up on the ask that I just sent about privilege having many contexts and meanings for binary privilege discussion, I saw someone else compare it to abled vs disabled dynamics and I think in this case it's far more comparable to like, invisible vs visible disabilities where both are disabled but because it's in different ways, they face different struggles in different situations. Like one could argue (incorrectly) that it's a privilege for handicapped spaces to exist whereas accomodations for many other disabilities don't exist but like that's stupid and accomodations for that kind of physical disability arent actually treated any more seriously/face different struggles. Like someone who can't access a certain space due to disabilities doesn't matter if it's because there's no stairs or because the strobe lights would cause meltdown/seizure/etc , either way, they can't enter the building, and people's responses could range from ignoring them to taking them seriously depending on their personal bias. Some people will accommodate visible physical disabilities but not invisible ones and some will do the opposite. More often, they're shitty across the board. Having Some spaces take Some groups more seriously in Some ways Sometimes doesn't mean they're privileged, and this applies to both "sides". One group just faces one side of a double edged sword and the other faces the other side. Both are wounded.

All very good words, anon! I wish I had more to say but once again I feel I am more platforming people and learning from them wrt this.

[radkindoffeminist]

I have a lot of issues with your pinned post and if you are willing to have a respectful discussion in dm's or whatever I will gladly explain my rationale on several of the points you made but I think you are really missing the point of inclusive language.

Yes, there are people who attack individual women for calling themselves "pregnant women" instead of "pregnant people." The reality is that there is always someone out there arguing for the stupidest possible version of any belief in existence. But that isn't the point of inclusive language.

The reason it's actually important isn't about validating people, it's about people getting access to the healthcare they need. If you, as a woman, go to a gynecologist looking for help with birth control, or pregnancy, or menstrual issues, etc etc you're not going to be turned away because "you're a woman, not a person." (This is NOT the same as not being taken seriously btw. Before you bring up that argument.) But trans men can and have been turned away from those procedures because "this treatment is for women/you can't possibly have [insert issue here], you're a man." Basically, read Stone Butch Blues I am begging.

Individual women can call themselves women as much as they want, but in medical settings it's important to use inclusive (and accurate!) language. "People who can get pregnant" acknowledges that there are women who are too young or old to get pregnant, or lack certain organs necessary for it, while including people who aren't women that can. And by the way, there are plenty of trans people who do encourage the use of inclusive language when it comes to male healthcare and are frustrated by terms like "womxn" being popularized.

You say you don't hate trans people or want us to come to harm? Help us protect our access to basic healthcare.

Jesus fucking Christ.

Medical inclusivity? Really? What makes you think that just turning from ‘pregnant women’ to ‘pregnant people’ is going to make people recognise that there are female people who don’t identify as women who can still get pregnant? Like, is that really going to be such a big problem in the medical community that actually we need to change all of our language because that alone will make doctors recognise that trans men can also get pregnant?

Moreover, even if I accept the above -that the language needs to change to accommodate trans people, especially as it seems like disagreeing with you about this makes you think that I want trans people to be harmed but I’ll deal with that later- why should it mean that I’m not allowed to be offended by this language change when it forces me to address myself and other women by our organs? This is especially offensive towards women who have a long history of being treated as a walking baby-maker/uterus/vagina. You only picked pregnant person in your example, but there are so many other terms I’ve seen: uterus owner, vagina haver, menstruator, etc. Why is my offence taken as hate on trans people? There are so many other terms which could be used which are significantly less offensive but those ones aren’t chosen, just the ones where we’re forced to refer to ourselves by our organs. Women, AFAB non-binary people, and trans men, for one.

Finally, if the actual argument that you’re going with is because it’s necessary for medical reasons then why is it only women who are targeted with this language? I literally don’t care that some people are encouraging the male equivalents because the reality of the situation is that these terms are directed almost exclusively towards women. There are so many examples of sites which use this language for women while men are still male! It just goes to show how deeply misogynistic this all is and how it was always meant to dehumanise women and separate us from our sex and our sex class.

You’ve basically just said ‘it’s better and more inclusive to trans people so shut up about being offended about it because if you disagree then you want harm to come to trans people’. You’re never going to care about my arguments or my feelings on this subject because all you’re going to do is say that I just hate trans people and want them to be hurt if I disagree. You don’t care about the fact that this language is deeply misogynistic and targets women. You just want us to shut up, accept it, and feel bad for being offended.

[computerpeople]

i wish i could figure out how to put how i feel about misogyny into words. i think a lot about it's role in my existence as a transman and i wish it was easier to talk about. i hate all the arguments about "all men includes trans men" or "but but but but transmen are except from hating men right?!" or whatever because thats never been an issue for me i guess. if someone hates all men im either included or unincluded depending on their definition, and im fine with that, i don't really care. as a transmasc, i am both able to perpetuate misogyny and also be a victim of it.

my issue is that everything i have ever done and will do will be wrapped in a blanket of misogyny. growing up i was a tomboy, and an ugly girl. i knew those things abouyt myself from the get go, probably because i was put into ballet at a very very young age (1-2 years old) and that taught me many things about myself, mosrly about how i don't fit in with other girls. i was assumed to be a lesbian by my parents, and confirmed this after i started dating my now ex boyfriend, who was also openly a lesbian at the time. and that followed me for years. no one around me cared that we were two transmascs, that we used boy names and he/him pronouns and were more openly transgender than anything else. we were the middleschools raging bulldyke couple. we were called carpet munchers and dykes and forced to sit apart from eachother in classes because us being next to eachother caused too much upheaval in OTHER students. he was able to transition easily, with social support, because he had money, he had loving parents, and most importantly: he was skinny and attractive. when people began to take his identity more seriously, they didn't spare me the same grace. i was still seen as an ugly, fat girl dating a guy out of my league, i had people tell me he only dated me because id accept his gender, that i was a fujo for wanting to date him, etc etc. all while i was also openly trans. i got misgendered, i was the ugly girl. he got to be a boy.

nothings changed. im 22 years old, im on testosterone, and i am still treated like an inconvenient, shitty, loud tomboyish ugly girl. i am constantly sexually harrassed by people who think it is attractive that i am openly an ugly girl. they ask me to have sex with them, to see if they "like men" but i know what they want. theyh want to bang me as a woman. they want to use me as a woman. they comment on me when i get on my knees, saying thats where i belong and where i should remember my place is. they slap me on the ass to get a feel and tell me its because thats what "boys" do to eachother. they call me ugly, they say every single unadulterated thing they ever want to say to a woman to me, because its cool right? im just one of the boys? so that gives them free reign to say all that shit to me? to cop a feel? bros just hug eachother all the time, i swear im not trying to feel where your nipples are in your binder. ignore me shifting you around, its unrelated. i am seen as stupid, i am seen as lesser, and i am seen as a sex toy. an ugly girl who thinks shes "strong" enough to handle the boys, andf theyll make sure i learn how stupid and ugly i am for thinking that. theyll make sure i get put back in my place.

i am not seen as a guy. i don't think that'll ever be my truth. i am seen as an ugly girl, and it will continue to follow me for the rest of my life. i wish that testosterone was not seen as this magic, amazing drug that makes everyone pass. i have been on it. ive grown my facial hair. ive deepened my voice. but i am seen as nothing but an ugly girl who forgot to shave. an ugly girl who needs to be reminded who i am.