#The story of Demeter and Persephone is so tragic

[deadbaguette]

Doomed mothers in greek mythology they could never make me hate you (Demeter, Thetis, Clytemnestra, Penelope, Andromache, etc)

[kurzler]

psst. "feminist" retelling writers. yes, i'm talking to you. i have a gift for you: here are some interesting women from greek mythology that you can write about that are NOT medusa, persephone or clytemnestra! there ARE other women, shocking i know!

-medea: she literally killed her brother and her children, i thought "female rage" girlies would be all over her

-danae: her life is so crazy, imagine being imprisoned by you father, getting impregnated by a god, being locked in a box and left to die at sea and then basically becoming a hostage to a king while your son is sent to kill a monster. and she's one of the only ones who, to my knowledge, actually gets a happy ending!

-atalanta: basically the only female hero in greek mythology!! and she was an argonaut!! c'mon now there is so much potential here, why does nobody care for atalanta

-the amazons: penthesilea! hippolyta! literally any of them! you're telling me there is a whole society of female warriors and so called feminist writers aren't jumping at the opportunity??

-hecuba: such a tragic and interesting figure, being the queen of troy, she lost her whole family in the war, i wish more people explored her relationship with her children (especially paris) and apollo

-andromache: i'm shocked andromache isn't more popular with the "tragic female characters" people, she literally lost everything basically because of men

-cassandra: i know cassandra is fairly popular, but i love her so much and i want more people to explore her relationship with her family, every dynamic has the possibility to be SO interesting

-electra: this whole family is a MESS and yet i see people mainly focusing on clytemnestra (with iphigenia), but not exploring the relationship between electra and clytemnestra is such a missed opportunity

-helen: i just want the focus of her story to be shifted from paris to the other people in her life, like her daughter hermione! how did they rebuild their relationship after troy? or her sister clytemnestra! what happened to her bond after the murder of agamemnon? or her brothers, castor and pollux! there is so much untapped potential

-demeter: there is a story about a mother's grief for her daughter, her journey looking for her, her anger, and yet every retelling of the homeric hymn to DEMETER focuses HADES to make him a dark romance mafia boss?? come on

and more!

conclusion: i'm tired of seeing the same stories being retold over and over again when there are so many characters to explore

[malusokay]

The Pomegranate Plague of Gen Z Poets

First, it was the moon. Then cigarettes. Then, girls by windows, ethereal in their ruin. Now? Pomegranates. (from my substack)

If you’ve spent enough time around poetry circles, you’ve seen it before. The doomed love, the Persephone complex, the vaguely sacrificial undertones. And, of course, the fruit.

The Persephone Myth (The Popular Version)

So you think you know the story: Persephone, wreathed in flowers, is stolen by Hades, dragged screaming into the Underworld. Her mother, Demeter, weeps and starves the earth in protest. Zeus, eventually deciding this is a problem, orders Persephone’s return—but oops, she ate six pomegranate seeds, so now she’s doomed forever.

That’s the version that survives in girl poetry, anyway.

What Promegerants Girls won’t tell you? The actual myth is a mess. There is no single, definitive version—just fragments, scraps stitched together across centuries. And the pomegranate seed detail?

It barely even shows up.

What We Actually Have:

• Persephone’s myth wasn’t even originally Greek. The story of a goddess being dragged into the underworld predates Greek mythology entirely.

• In Mesopotamian myth, Ishtar (Inanna) descends into the underworld to confront Ereshkigal, queen of the dead. She is stripped of her power and trapped, only escaping by offering someone else in her place—a theme that later appears in Persephone’s myth. This suggests Persephone’s story wasn’t a Greek invention but an adaptation of older Near Eastern fertility-death-rebirth cycles.

• Despoina (“the Mistress”) was worshipped before Persephone—and before Hades was even relevant. In older, pre-Olympian cult traditions, Despoina was the actual chthonic goddess of the underworld. She was venerated alongside Demeter and was probably a far more powerful, independent figure before later mythology reduced Persephone to “Hades’ wife.” Despoina’s cult was deliberately secretive, meaning much of her lore is lost—but she was deeply tied to the Eleusinian Mysteries, which were about life, death, and rebirth, not tragic romance.

• Hades wasn’t even a major figure in early versions of the myth. Before he was written in as “the husband,” the underworld was associated more with Gaia (Earth) and Nyx (Night). Hades’ later dominance in the story came as Olympian mythology reshaped older chthonic traditions.

• Persephone was originally Kore (“the Maiden”)—not a tragic heroine, but an archetype of the life-death-rebirth cycle tied to agriculture. She wasn’t a person; she was a function. The whole point was that she disappears, then re-emerges—her personality was secondary to the cosmic process she represented. Only much later did people start treating her as an individual.

• Hesiod’s Theogony (~8th century BCE), one of the oldest Greek texts, barely mentions Persephone. To him, she’s just Hades’ wife, no backstory necessary. This matters because it shows that her abduction wasn’t even a central myth at first—it developed later.

• The Homeric Hymn to Demeter (~7th century BCE) is our earliest and most detailed source. But forget romance—it’s a political nightmare. Hades kidnaps Persephone (the Greek verb used, ἁρπάζ��, literally means “to snatch away”—no courtship, no tragic longing). Demeter shuts down the harvest, and Zeus steps in not out of fatherly love, but because no crops mean no sacrifices, and no sacrifices mean starving gods.

The pomegranate? One sentence. Persephone eats something in the Underworld, so she has to stay. That’s it. The number of seeds? Not even mentioned. The whole “I bit into a pomegranate and now I am bound to darkness forever ”dramatics? A complete invention.

• Ovid’s Metamorphoses (~8 CE) is where we finally get the six seeds detail—but Ovid was Roman, writing centuries after the Greek versions had already evolved. His retelling heightens the drama, turning Persephone into a tragic, doomed figure rather than a cosmic force tied to ritual.

• Later Orphic traditions tried to clean it up, recasting Persephone as the mother of Zagreus (a god later merged with Dionysus), tying her to death, rebirth, and mystery cults. At this point, the myth had already spiralled into layers of mysticism.

• Persephone wasn’t always tragic—she became terrifying. The helpless waif image is a modern fabrication. The ancient sources tell a different story—one where Persephone is feared, not mourned.

• In Euripides’ Helen (412 BCE), she is invoked as a vengeful queen of the dead.

• In Homer’s Odyssey (Book 10), Odysseus fears Persephone’s wrath during his necromantic ritual—she is powerful enough to control the dead without Hades.

• Hecate was Persephone’s underworld counterpart and guide. In later versions, Hecate leads Persephone back to the upper world, further reinforcing Hecate’s enduring role in the chthonic realm.

• In Roman tradition, Proserpina (Persephone) was linked to Libera, a goddess of wild fertility and ecstatic rites. This completely contradicts the modern image of her as a fragile, tragic figure.

The Pomegranate Wasn’t Inherently Tragic

• In Hippocratic medical texts, pomegranate juice was used for contraception and abortion remedies—a practical, everyday association, not one of doom.

• In Pliny the Elder’s Natural History (1st century CE), pomegranates were used to treat fevers and digestive issues. No poetic suffering, just ancient medicine.

• In Greek funerary practices, pomegranates symbolised rebirth, not entrapment. They weren’t about being bound to darkness forever—they were about the cycle of life continuing.

Why This Completely Destroys the Promegerants Version of Persephone

1. The myth is about agriculture and divine power, not doomed love. The earliest versions barely mention Hades—this was Demeter’s story, a myth about the life cycle, cosmic balance, and the survival of humanity.

2. Persephone wasn’t always Persephone. She was Kore, an agricultural symbol, not a tragic heroine. Her function came first, her personality second. The idea of her as a fully realised, suffering individual came centuries later.

3. She wasn’t even the first queen of the underworld. Despoina was worshipped before her—an older, more powerful chthonic goddess with nothing to do with victimhood or romance.

4. The pomegranate was never central to the original myth. It’s a tiny, passing detail used as an explanation for why Persephone had to stay in the Underworld. The number of seeds? A Roman invention.

5. The whole myth wasn’t even Greek to begin with. It likely evolved from Mesopotamian myths like Ishtar’s descent, meaning the Promegerants version is a distortion of a distortion.

6. Persephone wasn’t a victim—she was a force of nature. The later versions of her myth don’t show her as tragic—they show her as terrifying. She was a queen who ruled the dead, feared even by heroes. If Promegerants Girls really wanted to stay true to the myth, they wouldn’t write about Persephone tragically eating seeds—they’d write about her punishing mortals for disturbing the dead.

From Chthonic Queen to Tragic Girlcore

The Promegerants version of Persephone strips her of her original role and reduces her to an aesthetic prop. In the oldest sources, she isn’t even a person—she’s a cosmic force, an idea before she’s a character.

Persephone was never just a tragic girl in a dark room with red-stained lips. She was a goddess of cycles, a ritual figure whose presence dictated the survival of humanity. The oldest myths barely even cared about her personal emotions—because that wasn’t the point.

And the pomegranate? Once a symbol of fertility and power, now just a moody Tumblr metaphor for doomed relationships. Would the ancient Greeks recognize Promegerants Persephone?

Absolutely not.

They’d probably assume she was some mediocre Roman poet’s overdramatic rewrite.

In other words: the version we cling to is a late, Romanized, overly romanticised distortion of a much darker and weirder myth—one that was never about love, tragedy, or women choosing their suffering.

Why Has This Myth Been Hijacked?

Because it’s too easy. The modern interpretation lets poets turn Persephone into:

• A stolen innocence narrative—without engaging with its actual horror.

• A tragic queen figure—without ever giving her power.

• A martyr for womanhood—as if eating a fruit were some grand metaphor for the inevitability of suffering.

But Persephone’s story was never about being loved and ruined.

It was about bargaining, power, and gods who don’t care about human grief.

The Pomegranate Problem™

At this point, the pomegranate isn’t a symbol—it’s a decorative prop.

Its original meanings—fertility, power, the tension between life and death—have been stripped away, replaced with moody girlhood aesthetics.

Poets don’t use it because they understand its history. They use it because it sounds expensive—like a fruit for people who romanticise heartbreak in foreign cities.

But if your poem still works after swapping “pomegranate” for “grapes”, then what are we even doing here?

Read This Before You Write Another Pomegranate Poem

• Homer’s Odyssey → Pomegranates appear in King Alcinous’ eternal orchard, a symbol of wealth, abundance, and divine favour. Not doom.

• Euripides’ Ion → Associated with Aphrodite, symbolising fertility, passion, and desire. Again—not doom.

• Aristophanes’ Lysistrata → Used as an innuendo for female sexuality (which, frankly, would make for a far more interesting poem).

• Dionysian Mysteries → Linked to ecstatic rites, resurrection cults, and the cycle of life and death. If you want to write about pomegranates and darkness, this would actually make sense.

• Roman Religion → Sacred to Juno, particularly in marriage and childbirth rituals, reinforcing their connection to fertility and renewal, not suffering.

• Theophrastus’ Enquiry into Plants → Describes pomegranates as a cultivated luxury fruit, prized for its sweetness, medicinal properties, and status.

• Herodotus’ Histories → Mentions Persian warriors decorating their spears with pomegranates, symbolising strength, fertility, and victory.

• Pausanias’ Description of Greece → Describes pomegranate offerings at Demeter’s sanctuaries, representing fertility, rebirth, and ritual purification—never suffering.

• Plutarch’s Moralia → Links pomegranates to beauty, sensuality, and indulgence in Greek and Roman culture—so, more hedonistic pleasure, less tragic metaphor.

Next time someone writes about a pomegranate-stained mouth, ask them if they mean Persephone or Aristophanes’ sex jokes.

How to Write a Pomegranate Poem That Survives Scrutiny

If you must use it, at least be rigorous. If you’re going full Persephone-core, then be specific. Make it about something real.

Tell us if the juice stains the sheets, if the seeds taste like metal, if they stick between your teeth like regret.

Don’t just drop in “pomegranate” and expect us to do the heavy lifting.

Or consider letting the myth go.

There are so many other symbols, so many richer, underused classical references.

And If You’re Tired of the Pomegranate, Try These Instead

there’s a whole world of classical symbols that carry just as much weight—without the overuse. Here are a few:

Chthonic & Underworld Imagery:

• Asphodel – The ghostly, liminal flowers of the underworld in Greek myth, growing where souls linger. Less overdone than pomegranates, just as eerie.

• Lethe – The river of forgetfulness. Its waters erase memory, a far more unsettling metaphor for loss than a single piece of fruit.

• Orphic Gold Leaves – Real funeral tablets placed with the dead, inscribed with guidance for navigating the afterlife. The ultimate memento mori.

• Owls – Athena’s symbol, but also a nocturnal watcher associated with wisdom, death, and the unknown.

Fertility, Desire & Ruin:

• Fig Trees – Symbolizing sensuality, abundance, and decay (the Greeks also had fig-wood coffins).

• Laurel Wreaths – Victory and poetic ambition, but also a crown of temporary glory—since laurel leaves wither fast.

• Myrrh – A resin used for perfume and burial rites, evoking both seduction and decay. (Also linked to Myrrha, who was cursed to fall in love with her own father. Greek myths were wild.)

Dionysian Madness & Ecstasy:

• Thyrsus – A staff tipped with ivy and pinecones, wielded by Dionysus and his followers. Represents intoxication, divine frenzy, and the thin line between revelry and destruction.

• Ivy – Unlike flowers, it never dies in winter. Clings, suffocates, overtakes. A more interesting metaphor for entanglement than Persephone’s six seeds.

If you must use a pomegranate, at least make it bleed. But if you’re ready for something richer—there are so many other symbols waiting.

[boymanmaletheshequel]

One facet of Hellenistic and Roman, /Greco Roman paganism that I’ve always found extremely interesting to me, is how inherently human and relatable it’s gods, and their correlating counterparts are, especially when compared to deities in other ancient religions. They are divine, of course, this is made clear enough, but they all have aspects and traits to them that are inherently human. Rage, lust, joy, love, conflict. They represent, if nothing else, key elements of humanity and the human condition, which is something that no other ancient religion I’ve studied quite compares to in the same way. And not only that, but their relationship to people and humans as gods is clearly very symbiotic. They rely on their subjects for their fulfillment, interact with them directly on a regular basis, and often times even respect and revere them as not necessarily always equals, but as at the very least, creatures worthy of their consideration and respect, sometimes even falling in love with, and baring children with them. This is something that doesn’t really happen in any other ancient religion I’ve seen, sure, there are aspects of it in them, but not nearly are they portrayed as objectively or centrally as they are in Hellenism and Roman paganism. Each god represents some aspect of humanity in ways that are inherently non-Devine, Aphrodite is a lover, sometimes desperate to a vulnerable degree you wouldn’t expect a god to be. Dionysus is regularly consumed by madness as a result of his addiction and mental illness, and falls into spirals of depravity that are hauntingly ungodly. Artemis hunts even though she doesn’t need to, she respects her body as a goddess woman just as much as any human woman would, and fights back just as violently as well. Apollo finds much of his joy and happiness through the humans he falls in love with, and faces much of his suffering and sadness through them as well. Persephone fucking dies. maybe not literally in the sense of human, medical death, but absolutely metaphorically, and the grief her mother Demeter experiences is so inherently human, and so shockingly, gut wrenchingly tragic, that it is pretty obvious that this is what her story is meant to represent: a divine allegory for death and grief, an element that so many religions completely separate from their deities. Even Zeus, the primary deity, is a father figure who’s connection and relativity to fatherhood as seen in human men is almost identical. and if it weren’t for the pre-established lore and status of him as a an extremely powerful deity, there are moments in his Mythos where you might even forget that he’s a god, an all powerful, all divine, objectively non human god to begin with. I think it’s what makes Hellenism so emotional and so drawing to me, and to many other pagans, it’s a relationship that is mutual, and relatable, which is an element that is lacking in so many religions, even the major ones like Christianity and Islam. Yes, there are still elements of this in those religions, but it always feels like the stories constantly hammer in the fact that they are divine, so divine, so utterly unrelatable, so inherently disconnected from their subjects and their plights as a superior enitity, that there’s a limit to how connected one can feel to them. In hellenismos, this limit doesn’t seem to exist, and that’s something that makes it so much more personal and fascinating to me than any other religion I’ve studied. The gods are us, and we are the gods. At the end of the day, I think that’s what all religions should be about, and ultimately, are about, wether we realize it or not.

[a-mythologynerd]

Alex Stern, Darlington, and Dante in Hell

DISCLAIMER: Okay so I'm realizing this post might have several parts as I'm only like half way through the Cantos and there are definitely more connections (i.e. Alex waking up on the second trip to Hell in the river of boiling blood and the 7th circle of Hell.) Also, people literally write whole ass academic articles about intertextuality and I do not have that much free time so if anyone is scholar of Dante please feel free to chime in. So. Also this is so long. I am both sorry and begging you to make the hours typing and looking into this worth it.

Okay, so as most folks know and probably connected, Dante's Inferno starts with:

"At one point midway on our path in life, I came around and found myself now searching through a dark wood, the right way blurred and lost" -Inferno, Canto 1, lines 1-3

and when Team Murder awakes they find themselves in a similar orchard:

"She looked up and realized she was staring through the branches of a tree, many trees. She was in some kind of forest... no, an orchard, the branches black and glittering and heavily laden with fruit, its skin darkest purple." -Hell Bent, pg. 271

Now this is also connected to the Tree of Knowledge by Dawes (pg. 272) and of course we get some Hymn of Demeter like pomegranates from the orchard of Hades that Persephone eats.

But Leigh Bardugo in her many connections of cthonic stories (love Darlington's line about who is Dante, Virgil, Beatrice, Orpheus, and Eurydice) is of course pulling directly from the Inferno in more ways than the opening. In Dante's Inferno, of which I am no expert, as Dante is being guided through the underworld by Virgil he passes through several circles of hell each focused on the punishment of a certain sin and sinner.

Now Darlington is trapped in Hell after being eaten by the Hell Beast, specifically because he mercy killed his grandfather and is therefore a murderer. But here's the thing. He's not punished for murder. He's sent to Golgarot who is a demon prince of greed.

"Turner tapped the book he was reading. 'You thought Darlington got eaten, right? By Mammon?' 'Maybe,' Dawes said cautiously. 'There are a lot of demons associated with greed. Devils. Gods.' Greed is a sin in every language. That was what Darlington had said. Sandow's hunger for money. Darlington's desire for knowledge." -Hell Bent pg. 311

Darlington is ambitious. This goes as far as his Hell vision from Golgarot. He doesn't dream of tenure or just a filled house or feeling like the hero. My guy dreams of being able to know everything ever in a never ending symposium where he also has traveled the world and absorbed the wisdom of mystics and scholars by simply touching them. That's not just ambition that drives someone to train and hone himself for adventures to come, that's greed. And his mortal soul's punishment is tragic and narratively fitting surrounded by the ruins of a legacy he has barely been keeping afloat with odd jobs and his bare hands:

"He had a rock in his hands, and as they watched, he lugged it over to what might have been the beginning or end of a wall and laid it carefully atop the other stones...He didn't stop moving, didn't alter his gaze...Darlington didn't break his stride, but Alex could see his chest rising and falling as if he was fighting for air. 'Please,' he gritted out. 'Can't...stop.'" -Hell Bent pg. 277

Except it's more than just narratively fitting. It's quite similar punishment for greed and avarice Dante describes in the 4th circle of hell where the guilty push stones or weights (depending on the translation) over and over again and do not speak to Dante and Virgil, other souls guilty of anger and melancholy babble nonsense. The Canto begins with Plutus, the Greek and Roman god of riches, wealth, and abundance, speaking nonsense words to Virgil and Dante. Virgil, a great speaker himself, responds in telling him to be silent and calls him a wolf. The Commentary in my translation by Robin Kirkpatrick discusses how Dante equates greed and the pursuit of specifically money as a pervision of intelligence. The lack of speech and inability to speak in contrast to Virgil is as Kirkpatrick puts it,

"Dante combines an irrepressible linguistic inventiveness with a profound sense that corruptions of mind and sensibility are directly reflected in corrupted applications of language, or in the lessening of a capacity for coherent thought and word...Intelligence here is reduced to the rolling of boulders, a subjection of mind and energy to mere materiality."- Commentary and Notes, pg. 341-342

And um. Yeah.

"Darlington had been frightening to the shades of the Veil and even to himself. It had been...If he was honest, it had been exhilarating. He had been a creature of the mind since he was a boy– languages, history, science. The rest of it, the training he'd put himself through–fighting, swordplay, even acrobatics– had all been in service to the future adventures he'd been sure he would have. But the great invitation had never come...And now? Was he human enough? He had been able to sit at the table and hold a conversation. He hadn't growled at anyone or broken any furniture, but it hadn't been easy. Demons were not thinking creatures. They operated on instinct, driven by their appetites. He had prided himself on being nothing like that. Never rash. Guided by reason. But now he wanted in a way he never had. He had been tempted to bury his face in his soup bowl and lap at it like a greedy animal. He wanted to place himself between Alex's legs now and do the same to her." -Hell Bent, pg. 414

and

"He had been prepared to speak, a quote from... His demon mind couldn't manage it. He remembered Alex with her book of poems. Hart Crane. He grasped at the words." -Hell Bent, pg. 465

But the connection doesn't stop there. Dante sees several beasts when he first enters the woods. They are warped versions of a leopard, a lion, and a wolf. One is a leopard who is often interpreted as a representation of lust, the other is lion for pride, and finally and most relevant to us, a wolf for greed. The wolf that Virgil calls Plutus. The wolves that guard Golgarot's realm that are not quite wolves. That chase our Team Murder and become their demons.

So. Long story short. Darlington and his demon form are not just a metaphor for beast like animal instincts of the inhuman. It's another reflection of greed and what in pursuing it and worshiping it, leaves one without human reason, speech, the mind. All things that define Darlington and he sees as integral to his personhood. Except his greed in pursuing those very things of knowledge and magic and wisdom and the unknown leave him with less than he started with. And its tragic and amazing and I need to read more analyses of Inferno and the rest of the Comedy and the third book needs to come out so we can see how else Leigh Bardugo combined the circles of hell and New Haven.

[likethexan]

rate all the greek mytho married couples from most to least interesting (or your favorite to least favorite, depends on you!)

For fun I’ve split them into four categories:

The Really Interesting category, made their relationship everyone’s problem:

- Zeus and Hera (duh)

- Helen and Menelaus (happy ending)

- Helen and Paris (oof! ending)

- Odysseus and Penelope (has a whole word dedicated to their like-minded thinking)

- Rhea and Cronus (tragedy and cannibalism)

- Jason and Medea (tragedy and filicide)

- Clytemnestra and Agamemnon (tragedy and filicide and mariticide and matricide and misogyny and and OH gods-)

- Peleus and Thetis (the arranged mortal marriage blues, but in my head Thetis immortalized Peleus somehow by force and keeps him in her attic) (Because gods be damned if she will be the only one doomed to grieve Achilles)

- Orpheus and Eurydice (mf really went to hell for her and still didn’t get her back :<)

- Hector and Andromache (relatively the most normal ones in this category but still very tragic. Like don’t even ask.)

- Hecuba and Priam (them too)

The Really Cute couple category, bonus if it took them long to get there:

- Hephaestus and Aglaia

- Eros and Psyche

- Dionysus and Ariadne

- Perseus and Andromeda (they kinda remind me of Prince Philip and Aurora which is cute)

- Hebe and Heracles (listennn. they’re cute and important to the Heracles-Hera feud ending)

- Hippomenes and Atalanta (RIP Meleager)

- Philemon and Baucis (one of my fave Zeus myths)

- Alcestis and Admetus (Orpheus and Eurydice but with a happy ending thanks to the interference of Apollo)

- Iphis and Ianthe (trans man rep is good someone PLEASE write about them)

- Tethys and Oceanus (placing them here idc they are cute in my head!! The only titan couple who survived rip to Coeus/Phoebe and all the failed marriages thanks to the Titanomachy)

The Uhhh… Okay Category

- Hades and Persephone (placing them here because while I do think their relationship is interesting AND I find good various retellings of them (excluding LO) like Hades Supergiant, Hadestown, etc I long for more neutral/nuanced takes on the kidnapping, not just by their romance (or lack of romance) but Demeter’s role in the story to be more respected. (It also can’t be helped that HxP has the most over saturated greek mythology content everywhere that people get tired of seeing them, especially portrayed as the “only good greek myth couple” like okay get outta here)

- Gaia and Uranus (I like them, their relationship is clearly important for Cronus’ succession story, but their conflict to me seems so.. short lived? Like you have your son castrate your husband for imprisoning your less appealing babies but now the strife is gone and you work together to tell your son he is destined to be overthrown by his son and telling your grandson to cannibalize his wife as good advice??? Like good for them ig but Rhea and Cronus just do it better imo)

- Hypnos and Pasithea (getting ur wife from a deal with her mom that makes you commit treason by inducing your king with sleep… nothing sketchy about this at allll) (but maybe they’re cute and functional besides that who knows)

- Ceyx and Alcyone (in one version they didn’t do it, in the other they’re just… very dumb to call themselves Zeus and Hera.)

- Procris and Cephalus (eos RUINS lives)

- Hephaestus and Aphrodite (lets be glad it ended bc while they are interesting and Hephaestus did make their marital strife public, I just think they had a better relationship after the divorce)

The Kinda Boring category (to me, subjectively, put down the pitchforks)

- Poseidon and Amphitrite (do they have one myth together that isn’t the Delphin seduction myth… Amphitrite is nice to Poseidon’s worst son. That’s. That’s kinda it. I wish we had more, like how they are with their children or literally anything else to depict a dynamic between them. Especially since they ARE supposed to be the king and queen of the sea. But nope. At least with Oceanus and Tethys they’re both obscure in their personalities so headcanoning stuff is fun to me. Poseidon having a well established personality and Amphitrite… oh dear Amphitrite…)

- Cadmus and Harmonia (they’re a couple in order become ascendants of more tragic humans like Actaeon, Semele and that’s it. They become Snakes in the end to repent for Cadmus’ mistake. Nothing really about their relationship with each other)

- Deucalion and Pyrrha (The Greek rendition of Christianity’s Noah’s Ark and yeah. Thats it)

[aliciavance4228]

Unpopular Opinion: Demeter Did Nothing Wrong

Alright, maybe the title isn't 100% accurate since she almost wiped the entire human race from earth, but you got the idea.

The thing with Demeter is that nowdays she is demonized/villainized all the time. And the most ironic part is that she is demonized by feminists, which leaves me quite confused, considering the fact that she would technically be a great example of female strength, especially when raporting to "Homeric Hymns to Demeter". But before discussing the myth of seasons, let's talk about her background story:

One thing that is certain about Demeter is that she had horrible experiences with almost all men from her life. Her father ate her. Poseidon raped her disguised as a horse. Zeus raped her as well (which led to the birth of Persephone). Iasion was one of the few men from her life who loved and respected her, and whom she lived with for a while before Zeus became jealous and killed him; yes, he is THAT much of a d-

The only one of her brothers who didn’t hurt her in any way at that time was Hades. And if you take into account the versions of the myths in which Hades was born before her that means that he was the one who took care of her as well during the time when they were trapped in their father's stomach. So it is pretty much implied that he was the only one of The Big Three whom she trusted the most, which makes the discovery that he was the one who kidnapped her daughter even more tragic.

Now, about "Homeric Hymns to Demeter": first of all I want to point out the fact that this myth isn't about Hades and Persephone. They are mostly mentioned in this story rather than actually playing an active role in it, because they have more of a symbolic value above it all. Wheter Persephone came to love Hades in time or despised him for the rest of her eternity is irrelevant, because this myth is not about her but Demeter.

Demeter had already faced some disturbing experiences even before Persephone was kidnapped. And considering the fact that her own daughter was a result of SA, it makes perfect sense why she would be protective towards her and raise her outside of Mount Olympus; every woman that was raped would fear that her daughter would face the same cruel fate.

About the abduction part: it is revealed to us at the beginning that Hades asked Zeus if he can marry his daughter, and he agreed. Hades only needed the approval of the father in order to wed her. Back in the Ancient Greece, especially in the Athens, people had a very patriarchal view on marriage. On short: the marriage would be usually planned between the groom and the father of the bride, her mother not knowing anything about what was going on until her daughter was already taken away from her. This myth is a representation of how the Patriarchy was a dominant system even among deities, with Zeus as its supreme figure.

At this point, the myth of seasons can be already considered a comfort story for mothers who had to endure the loss of their daughters either through death or marriage. This myth, however, has a lighter note as well, and that because Demeter, instead of accepting the fate of her daughter, left her anger free and did anything she could so that she would ultimately convince Zeus to give her daughter back, the last solution being leaving hundreds of humans dying of cold and hunger. This part basically shows how even a patriarchal figure like Zeus can be defeated by a mother's rage (or pure female rage, take it as you wish). Even though this myth is supposed to tell us just how seasons appeared, it can also be used as a moral lesson for men: it is better to consult with your wife and daughter before making a decision, or else there will be GREAT CONSEQUENCES.

And finally, one moment that is indeed very touching yet most people are ignoring for some reason is when her mother Rhea appears in front of her and starts to comfort her after she found out that Persephone ate the promeganate seeds, showing how a mother's mouring over her daughter was a common feeling among most female deities from Greek Mythology.

Now, is Demeter perfect? Absolutely not. And that is okay, because instead of that she is supposed to show in this myth a lot of humane and realistic nuances about what being a woman is like. She is a complex character, and completely demonizing her just because you ship Hades and Persephone is quite disturbing in my honest opinion. Wheter or not you like this couple (I won't condemn you because they are still one of the most stable relationships from Greek Mythology, but that basically shows just how f*cked up myths are in general lmao but anyway....), you have to understand the fact that the "Beauty and Beast" and "A mother's love will always conquer" are two tropes that can co-exist, and that things aren’t just black-and-white.

[crazylittlejester]

Saw the post about the Chain and their god domains and my greek mythos obsessed brain got scritched so here is the Chain as Greek gods/mythos:

Time: The old man gave me such a hard time. absolutely going insane over him. He’s Hades. being one of the big three (this fucker split the timeline (almost like how the underworld is split)). Ive never finished MM or OoT but i believe the lore is that all the masks are possessed to put it simply, thus the spirits granting link his power, making Time a maestro of the dead. Many interpretations of hades also depict him as cunning, a trickster, while also being stern, much like our resident little shit (affectionate). Hermes was a big contender here for that reason.

Sky: This was a toss up but im gonna have to say Zeus honestly, mister Godslayer himself. less of a connection between their personalities honestly and more just focusing on their similar dynamics, skills, and symbolism. Obviously we have our favorite lightning motif, plus the position of leadership they both share - in the sense that zeus is more or less the leader of the gods and sky being the ‘leader’ so to speak of the timeline. Plus the parallels between demise and kronos, and zeus/sky’s respective roles there. It was between the big man or persephone.

Twilight: Artemis!! Our very literal leader of the pack. Goddess of the hunt, patron of animals, domain over the moon (cough twilight cough). Though, Demeter and hestia were fighting me here, the fursona won over the country bumpkin sadge.

Warriors: You are Athena! badass in the arena! /ref. Honestly, i feel like i should be assigning them their ‘obvious’ gods and then give them one that attaches to them more symbolically. Yes, everyone’s favorite captain is THE captain goddess. Cunning, strategist, warhead, intelligent, and alot of people forget that Athena is both charismatic and incredibly physically beautiful, in most adaptations. she was in the lineup for paris and guided the trojan war. I forget who it was on here that is a big “wars = helen of troy” truther but theyre absolutely so correct.

Legend: Also a tricky toss up, but i ultimately landed on apollo. Apollo’s known for being a sort of jack of all trades god, between his dominion over the sun, medicine, music, archery, and more. With the vet’s all encompassing experience, with his multitude of instruments and proficiencies in different magical items it made sense. Me, personally, I loved the stories of apollos shape-shifting mortal ventures more than say zeus or any of the other gods. Also, depending on your characterization of the vet, their supposed personalities line up quite well, with apollo being charming and somewhat arrogant/snarky with others

Hyrule: This feels left-field but rulie gets to be Persephone! Adept with magic, goddess of fertility and the harvest and just general growth (of nature), with the double edge of being the queen of the underworld. Ugh im so obsessed with downfall duo rulie is so tragic. left with a desolate wasteland, yet (depending on characterization) ushering in and doing his damndest to nurture life and growth. I love the headcanons where rulie is a survivalist through and through, proficiencies in botany and herbology, respect for the land and its inhabitants. 

Wild: Demeter! Wild is of the land, they are one and the same. The way his world is absolutely teeming with life, and the way he is molded to adapt and live with the land to complete his adventure,,, ugh its too good. He is the most in tune with the wolves, the bees, the cows, the reeds, the flowers, the dragons, the spirits, they ARE him. he woke up with NOTHING, except a vast land full to bursting with life and lessons. 

Four: Hephaestus, obviously. dont get me wrong, I love four so much, but anything else felt blasphemous (The way i could write essays about it—). He is the god of blacksmithing, if i assigned him anything else i fear he may just manage to kill me. 

Wind: Notos! God of the east Wind, known for the bringing of summer, cyclones, and warmth. love that funky little whirlwind hes so fun and spunky. being a god of wind was so on the nose it was too good. I didnt ever consider poseidon, winds too squishy and fluid for that. this kid is bouncing around like a cat 5 hurricane he is the wind, he is free (to cause chaos).

Ugh i love yapping about the mythologies. i may do this again except with minor gods/demigods (i will get back to that legend-achilles parallel i swear). I hope this was amusing to you

OKAY OKAY GO OFF!!!!

(I’m a huge Wars = Helen of Troy truther, I ain’t the only one, but I’ve yapped about it a lot akdkkdk)

you absolutely ate this up on my god i agree i agree i agree i agree. LEGEND AND ACHILLES?? SIGN ME THE FUCK UP IF YOU EVER FEEL LIKE YAPPIN ABOUT THAT THE FLOOR IS YOURS AND THE ASK BOX IS OPEN ID LOVE TO HEAR IT

[1dfanfictionbookcovers]

Young & Beautiful by Velvetoscar ( @mizzwilde ) - 

Covers here, here, here and here

favourite quotes:

The italic quotes are Oscar Wilde’s quotes that are part of the story.

Perhaps that’s why he’s only a shell—he’s too much for himself.

[…]if Harry is indeed ‘damaged’ or whatnot, how is Louis to know if he’s even able to be ‘saved’? What if it’s too late? What if what’s been broken just can’t be fixed, and in concerning himself for this hot mess of a boy, Louis just embarks on a dead-end journey of useless stress and concern?

Harry’s somewhere beyond the realm of existence, in the dark corners that get forgotten or shunned, and he’s far away from everybody, so far away[…]

[…]and sometimes, when he’s quoting some novel or poet or author or whateverthefuck, the tragically beautiful words match the tragically beautiful prisms in Harry’s eyes[…]

I knew nothing but shadows and I thought them to be real.

Behind every exquisite thing that existed, there was something tragic.

You will always be fond of me. I represent to you all the sins you never had the courage to commit.

Harry Styles may be assembled from destruction. But how could something so genuinely beautiful be created by someone who was ‘evil’? By someone who supposedly had nothing left inside?

“Persephone has returned to Hades.” […] “The last leaf has fallen,” he says simply, pointing to the ground. “Demeter’s weeping because her daughter’s returned to the underworld.”  […] “Louis purses his lips before walking over to the fallen leaf, plucking it up from the ground. Harry’s head snaps to him. “What are you doing?” “Keeping hold of it, then.” “Why?” he asks, startled. “In case she ever misses Persephone, I’ll show it to her”

Because I understand that it doesn’t have to be perfect to be liked

I’m well aware that I’m not weak, Ireland. Well aware. But there’s nothing weak about caring about somebody and showing them compassion. All right? There’s a strength in that, even.

So he watches Harry scramble around looking for answers, his face slack and perfect and the very portrait of a Shakespeare tragedy. It’s like watching the final scene of Hamlet, all within his features. A mass murder, a total destruction, a bloodbath. Except Louis thinks Harry is probably Ophelia and he’s probably already drowned.

Truth be told, Harry probably really is made of delicate pottery. With tiny, tiny cracks covering the surface.

He’s shaded and tired. He looks like a poem. One of those mournfully beautiful ones with short, unfamiliar words that sound ethereal when spoken and completely nonsensical when thought. The kind you find in the back of the book and dog-ear because you want to poke at it a bit later, when your head’s a bit clearer. Written by a Romantic poet with a name that sounds like a soft breath and a reputation.

It’s sort of like when there’s a wildflower that sprouts from an errant crack in concrete—a small, glorious splash of color that struggles through the mundane and changes the world with its simplistic perfection. That’s what Harry’s smiles are like.

“I’m sick of discussing the world, Louis. I’m going to forget the world.” A pause. “You’re welcome to forget it with me, if you like.”

But Louis finds that he wants to paint him. With colors and textures that haven’t even been invented.

The sun escapes from Harry’s lips.

“That doesn’t make sense,” he whispers. “You make me want to not make sense”

Just because someone like you exists… You made me fall in love with the world again.

The curves of your lips rewrite history

“The moon knows,” is what he says, breath colored in liquor and a smile. […]“The moon knows that we’re in love.”

You have shown me color in a world of gray and you are cruel, Louis Tomlinson, for you take the color with you every moment that you’re not beside me.  You are cruel because I will gladly suffer until the world has returned.

[meggannn]

a brief analysis on hades npcs' favorite blood sibling

this is not a popularity contest. this is my attempt at analyzing if certain characters prefer a certain sibling based on the info we have now.

prefers mel:

artemis. she likes zag of course, but this is obvious.

this is sad and ofc horrendously unfair to zag, but as predicted, so far hades does speak to mel with more respect than he did zag for most of hades 1, as evidenced by him already calling her "daughter" not "girl." perhaps hades's relationship with zag has changed significantly post-game, and obviously the circumstances and baggage of zag's upbringing (which hades was responsible for) vs hades meeting mel for the first time as a capable young woman are very different, but. yeah.

this is a guess, but i'm gonna say hermes likes her more as well, although only just. he's eager to get her to olympus and they've just been in contact for longer as he's a friend to the silver sisters. however i do think that there's an argument to be made that zag prioritizes speed over mel, both in character and gameplay, so hermes might relate to that with zag more.

possibly charon. i might have put him in the "no preference" category, because i don't think mel being able to understand him better necessarily means he likes her more, but i do think that he might prefer mel juuuuuuust barely only because he offers her loyalty cards without her needing to beat his ass lmao. there is no shoplifting option for mel yet so if it is added, i might change my mind, but so far i don't think she'd be the type to do it anyway.

possibly aphrodite but if so, it's not by much imo. she definitely likes zag, but says to mel "you look like you can break some hearts even without my aid" which sounds like approval of mel's messy situationships lol. to me her nicknames "little godling" vs "gorgeous" kind of implies the slightest more fondness of mel but again, not by much.

prefers zag:

chaos. outwardly asked "where's your more fun brother :/" and explicitly once told mel to shut up lol. also because i think a being called primordial chaos is understandably more interested in a story of "snarky, rebellious kid runs away from home and shakes up family status quo while blasting his way through the underworld" rather than "perfectionist does what she's told/tries to set the world in order." obviously chaos still supports mel, but definitely finds zag more interesting. chaos had to specifically set up trials for mel to get entertainment out of her lol.

skelly. one of my theories as to what's going on with skelly is that he's cosplaying his living self just for shits and giggles because it's a war, but also like. it's skelly lol so who knows. i think his personality in 1 is more his "natural self" which so far we've only seen come out around zag.

cerberus. :/

no preference:

homer. i know homer describes them differently (zag as a lazy, responsibility-avoiding slob vs mel as a tragic duty-focused, orphan princess), but i think that's not because homer prefers mel, but because he's crafting his diction to the story being told. hades 1 is a story with a twist wherein he reveals a laid-back prince is actually just lonely and misses his mom (imo he describes zag much more sympathetically as time goes on), but hades 2 is a war story and mel has been raised as a soldier all her life, so his tone is just different with mel from the offset. it's not fun to make light of her because the stakes are higher.

demeter: the real answer is persephone, persephone is her favorite lol. imo she seems just glad to have alive grandkids.

poseidon and zeus? haven't seemed to notice a preference so far from either of them. they have a more pressing reason to support mel because war and all, but also artemis mentions they don't really believe she can do it, which makes sense, but it makes me wonder if their support with mel is a bit patronizing, or like "well what have we got to lose." they also don't seem particularly worried about zag missing of course but i think these two have so many nieces and nephews and relatives that any preference they have between mel or zag is miniscule.

theories on returning characters we haven't seen yet:

prefers zag: nyx (just due to her raising him... but a case can be made for mel due to the silver sisters/mel living in shadow/hecate's relationship with nyx), dionysus (party boys), achilles & patroclus (probably), sisyphus & orpheus (power of friendship), thanatos & meg (obvious), asterius (respect for their many battles)

prefers mel: athena (level-headed warrior women), ares (a witch assassin groomed specifically for war? "go ahead and torture my family, but i will still come back to kill you over and over again"? absolutely), eurydice (cooking gal pals), theseus (please god it'd be so funny)

no preference: idk dusa? and hopefully persephone. the kids need a parent who doesn't have a favorite. i do think she will always have a soft spot for zag because he found and brought her home, but also i'm sure persephone will also want to spend a lot of one-on-one time gardening with her daughter.

[mask131]

Do you think Persephone ever cheated on Hades with Adonis or anyone else?

Hi! Sorry for how long this took to answer, I was quite busy and your question isn't an easy on to answer.

When it comes to asking such a thing, what I think is probably of no use or interest... I know some people love to make headcanons for mythologies, but of course at this point one can make up everything and anything and claim it's "true". When looking to answer a question about what a deity did or did not do, one must look at the texts.

And in the case of Persephone... In the versions of Adonis' legend in which she gets involved, it is made pretty clear she has something for him. A form of love and desire. Now, I know that some people used the vagueness and shortness of the expressions used in the old texts to push forward the idea that maybe Persephone had more motherly love and feelings for Adonis, given she raised him and refused to give him back to Aphrodite (a bit in a reversal of the Demeter-Persephone legend), which would put an interesting spin on the Aphrodite vs Persephone trial, opposing romantic love and motherly love and reflecting the two ways a woman could exist in relationship to a man in Ancient Greece (mother/family or lover/bride)... But it is more widely agreed and accepted, given the way it is framed, the context of it all and how it is clear a LOT of deities are lusting after Adonis, that Persephone fell in love with him in the romantic sense.

However if we agree that Persephone had a thing for Adonis (despite Adonis clearly preferring Aphrodite), it leads to one big, big question... What of Hades? In the texts in which Persephone fights for Aphrodite, even bringing it up for judgement to Zeus, Hades is nowhere to be seen, despite Persephone being his wife... One could read it as Hades not caring much for it all and allowing his wife to have a lover. Which is... debatable. It is doubtful in the sense of how the Ancient Greeks considered marriage, and yet it can also be likely given how weird weddings and romances are among the Greek gods. So did Persephone "cheat" on Hades with Adonis? Well it is left unclear and there's a big hole open for interpretation... Was Hades aware or not? Did anything happen or not? Did Adonis reciprocate Persephone's feelings? Hades' absence and Adonis favorizing Aphrodite leads to a LOT of possibilities...

If you have to ask me and if I had to make a theory (and that would be my only opinion here - though I do mention I am NOT an expert in the Adonis legend), I believe this apparition of Persephone as a singular goddess, as a sole queen of the Underworld with no Hades by her side, but also as a friend-turned-rival of Aphrodite, is due to the origins of Adonis.

Adonis is the (almost) direct Greek adaptation of the Mesopotamian myth of Adon/Tammuz/Dumuzid, a figure of a "dying-then-resurrected vegetation god" that has crossed various civilizations and mythologies, and is usually depicted as part of the tragic love story with a goddess... Inanna, Ishtar, Astarte, all names and identities of a same "divine character" or "goddess archetype" that led to the Greek Aphrodite. But where is Persephone in all that? Well it seems, or I can suggest, that Persephone in the myth of Adonis is actually also a transposition of a Mesopotamian goddess - more precisely Ereshkigal, the lady of the Underworld. Just like how Persephone is here unusually depicted as a "sole power" (traditionally Persephone is always paired with Hades somehow), Ereshkigal was the dominant queen of the Underworld often appearing alone (Nergal as her husband was apparently a late addition) ; but more importantly, just like how in the Greek myth we find an opposition between Aphrodite (love) and Persephone (death) fighting over vegetation (Adonis), Mesopotamian myths are underwoven with the rivalry and opposition between Inanna (Lady of Heaven, goddess of life) and Ereshkigal (Lady of the Underworld, keeper of the deceased). A rivalry between two "sisters" which is most famously illustrated by the tale of the "Descent of Inanna into the Underworld", win which Inanna challenges her sister's power (and fails miserably to conquer her realm)... but more interestingly, a tale which ends with Inanna sending her Adonis equivalent (Dumuzid) to his death/her sister, resulting in a cycle of him coming and going between the living and the dead...

Of course, I am not an expert on Persephone or Adonis, so I might be dead wrong, but given what I know about comparative mythology, the evolution of the goddesses figures, and some of the roots of the legend, this is my suggestion: that Persephone's role here is basically a distant heritage of the role of Ereshkigal in other mythologies. Now how would that fit with the Persephone we know from the Hades-ravishing tale? Or the one from the cults and worship? I can't really answer, but it is an interesting "hole" to explore in the narrative continuity of Greek mythology

[gemsofthegalaxy]

ive made several posts about this subject before but im gonna make another one because i read a post and i agreed with parts of it lol

i absolutely get why people dislike retellings of The Rape of Persephone that make Demeter into a villain, I do too. but I think it's worthwhile to acknowledge why "Persephone wanted to stay in the Underworld with Hades and devised a way to do it" became such a prevalant.... myth.... about the myth, which was not actually mentioned

Although their meet-cute was not so cute, Persephone and Hades are one of the most functional couples in popular Greek Myth, and while the origin story is much more about Demeter and her grief, I suspect a lot of people latch not onto the whole story but onto Persephone and her nature-goth spring queen vibes. i know she was instantly my favourite Goddess when I was a teenager, whereas Demeter was only kind of on my radar. And, again, in the other stories that feature Hades and Persephone they are relatively unproblematic (lol) in comparison to other couples, for example, Hera and Zeus and the numerous infidelities and such, so they are well-liked for that reason too.

So, if Persephone and Hades are such a happy couple, we have to reconcile that with their origin being tragic and also not really about the two of them that much, moreso being about Demeter... which is I think why it was easy to run with the (historically false) idea that Persephone played a part in the scheme to have her stay intentionally. if they loved each other, why wouldn't she want to stay?

my thing is- you could have Persephone want to stay in Hades without Demeter being overbearing and a total helicopter mom the way others tend to depict her... yeah, she gets a little extreme in her grief, but it's not directed towards Persephone in the way it is in some of the retellings I've read. idk. i love Hades and Persephone but they are hard to "adapt", as it were, and I don't like people making Demeter into a monster but i understand why it can be hard to make sense of the different aspects of their relationship (esp if people are hearing it third hand rather than reading the Hymn to Demeter themselves)

[incorrect-riordanverse]

Hi. Sorry, if this is anyoing. I find Rick Riordan's portray of some of the gods, and goddess interesting, and like le, not all but some. For exemple I really like Hestia, Horus, Seth, Artemis, Nephthys, Thoth, Bess, Tawaret, Anubis, Apollo, and Hermes (I can't really have an openion about how he portrays the Norse gods, because the Magnus series haven't been translated to my language yet, and buying and ordering books in English here costs a lot of money, so I have to wait (there is a gossip that they will publish it, but they say this sainc at least 3, or 4 years)) . And I have to thank Rick Riordan's books that I got into mythology, and started learning it, and that I new want to write stories based on it, and started watching Overly Sarcastic Productions. But there is a need to criticis how he portray some gods, and goddess, and then there is also a something that both him, other writers, and people who talk about mythologys forget.

One problem is Demeter. She didn't tried to kill everyone, so they give her daughter back, the reason why everything almost died was her sadness. The sadness of the mother when they child gets married is a thing (for both sons, and daughters at least I heard it), which is a somewhat common thing, even if the realetionship of the child, and they partner is healthy. I was at my cusins wedding, and my mother said that she will cry aty wedding. This is because they child, is no longer a child, but an adult. Yes I know that in the story can mean something else, because of it's age. But I still think that "Demeter sadness", would be a lot more better then "Demeter tried to kill everyone, so she can get her daughter back because she is an opsesed mother".

Next problem is Hera. I don't want to excuse her actions, by any means. She married Zeus, because he raped her, and out of shame because of it. And this marriage her only source of pride, and probably a way to try to get rid of the shame she feels. Zeus's affers brings her the feeling of shame back. It gives more deapht, portays Hera more humeanly, and is more acuret to mythology (there is just this one version of this myth). And with good write this could be writen in a way that no justify what she does to Zues's other victoms.

Next problem is Zeus's portray. I think the only thing I have to say, is that Zeus is the only gods who doesn't have any version where he don't rape someone. (the only god who don't raped, or kidnaped anyone in any versions is Ares.)

Next problem there is no cannon, and many myths have many defrent version. This is true for Medusa's origin story. In some versions she was a monster from birth, alongside her sisters, in other version she was once a human. We all know this version but it has two version. One where Poseidon rapes Medusa in Athena's temple, then Athena cursed her to punish her. And in the other older version Medusa consented to the act. And there are many more versions of almost every myth, in all mythologys, and I think this can be interesting thing when it cames to writing stories based on mythologys.

Sorry if I sound stupid, or anyoing, and sorry that this is long. I just wanted to write this for so long. And sorry for the grammar, and spelling mistakes English is not my first language.

TW: mentions of SA, rape.

I completely forgot I had an inbox for a while so idk how long this has been here but I’ve finally got around to it! I find this sort of discourse very interesting, and I agree for the most part with what you’re saying!

I heavily dislike interpretations that villainise Demeter in Persephone and Hades’ story too. Lots of modern retellings do this to romanticise Persephone and Hades, and its quite sad (and frustrating). Demeter freezing the crops is such a powerful story about a mother’s love, and its tragic that its been so twisted in modern retellings of the myth. Web comics like ‘Lore Olympus’ and ‘Punderworld’ come to mind for this, but (and maybe this is because of my ass memory of the series… it’s been a while since I read it) I don’t remember Persephone and Demeter’s story being touched on much in the Riordan’s books. I feel like it may have, but I can’t remember explicitly. I remember Hades and Persephone’s relationship being quite rocky though!

I hear what you’re saying about Hera too! She’s been under a lot of fire recently and I know the PJO series plays a large part in that! I can think of ‘Blood of Zeus’ being another factor in this villainising narrative of her, and even though there were some efforts to make the audience view her as sympathetic in that show, it seemed a little backhanded (overemotional woman blinded with rage and taking it out on the wrong people). I agree that it seemed a bit much to portray her as a villain in the series, but I’ll raise two things:

PJO was a series created with children or young teens as the target audience. so the series can’t be that loyal to the original myth, considering how dark it is.

Hera was a good antagonist, and her values and motives in the series were the most accurate to how the Greek gods actually were at the time. They simply did not view mortals as anywhere close to equals, but tools to bring glory to their names. They looked after them as long as they served their interests. A lot of her ‘hate’ stems from the fandom’s misogyny, I believe. It also doesn’t help that the other Greek gods in the series were reduced to caricatures of what they actually were, such as Ares (mean and violent), Aphrodite (shallow and vain), Hades (cold and distant) and Poseidon (cool swag fish dad ig). In all honesty, I understood Hera’s motives the most and I think she was written pretty well. I don’t understand why the fandom hates her so badly unless it’s misogyny or the fact that she was too good of a villain, and felt like a real threat to the characters (the Greek gods were badass, but super scary!).

However, there was that book that Riordan did write about the Greek gods that no doubt contributed to Hera’s ridiculing (that being ‘Percy Jackson and the Greek Gods’ told in the perspective of Percy). He mentioned Zeus ‘tricking’ Hera into marrying him, but disregarded the seriousness of it and continued to make fun of her. I understand its still a kids book so he couldn’t do much, as well as its in character for Percy to ridicule her, but still… I see why some people get upset at that portrayal of her as well. Especially because Hera has had a long-winded past of being villainised and made fun of for her actions, which all stem from deep-rooted misogyny.

Zeus’ portrayal fits hand-in-hand with Hera’s, to be honest. Riordan couldn’t explicitly show how he actually was, so he omitted some stuff, which was fine. It’s funny you make that point about Ares being the only god who never encroached the boundaries of his lovers, because he’s depicted as a misogynist in the series towards his daughter. Which irks me a lot.

Medua’s depictions are also very contested. I believe, and I don’t know if I’m 100% correct, but I’m pretty sure that in the original Greek myth, Medusa had always been a gorgon, and was never human. The myth of Medusa being raped by Poseidon in Athena’s temple is a Roman adaptation, and I think that story is the more popular interpretation currently. I also think that’s the story Riordan was kind of going with, considering he wrote Medusa in the first book to be in love with Poseidon (and in the original myth they had no sexual relationship). Which is… yeah. Disgusting. Again, not saying that Riordan should’ve strictly stuck to that very graphic interpretation, but he didn’t have to portray her like that. And this could’ve been avoided if he did enough research on more interpretations of the myth.

All in all, I don’t think Riordan was genuinely malicious, just ignorant to the implications his portrayals of the gods would have. There’s also the fact that he probably didn’t know how big of a hit Percy Jackson would be, and how much influence it would have over general media surrounding Greek mythology (mostly Greek mythology, but Norse and Egyptian too!). I wasn’t even aware of how problematic it was until this account started gaining a larger following, and so I also had to do research on the topic myself! There’s an assumption that Greek gods don’t have influence over people today, but there are some out there who worship them, and we shouldn’t dismiss that because its a smaller religion.

Thank you for this ask! You weren’t being annoying at all, I love long asks 🫶🫶

[sapphire-weapon]

Clive, hush. Not only is it appropriate to give you the title of Mythos, but it’s one that you should’ve reclaimed and taken for yourself. In fact, I don’t know why Ultima even gave you that title. It’s kind of like naming a kid “Roger Stabbington” and then being surprised when he says “ok” and stabs people.

FFXVI had a lot of storytelling problems, but one of the issues that stands out the most is the refusal to explain the whole Mythos/Logos thing. There’s ATL entries about them, sure, but they’re kind of the most barebones, reductive explanations as to why those particular words/titles were chosen for Clive.

It’s time for me to put my “I was raised in an obnoxiously Greek family” hat back on once again and -- just as I did with the Hades II trailer -- break down all of the dumb ancient Greek nonsense being thrown at us in a video game.

“Mythos” isn’t actually a word that’s meant to be used as a title. The word “mythos” in and of itself refers to one of two things, depending on how it’s being used:

1. the compilation of folklore around a particular subject. For example, there’s the very famous myth of Hades and Persephone’s marriage, but there’s a whole mythos around the explanation of why seasons exist, and Demeter’s mourning of the loss of her daughter is only part of that mythos.

2. the plot of an ancient Greek tragedy -- just in general. The mythos of the story should have some sort of reversal (either the story starts off with the protagonist in a good place and ends with them in a bad one, or vice versa), and the intention should be to evoke fear or pity from the audience. Aristotle believed that the most tragic of stories were those involving violence between friends and/or family (and who does that sound like?) -- and, the worse the tragedy, the stronger the mythos.

So, to use the word “mythos” as a title implies that the person holding this title carries with them the legends and stories born from the hearts of mankind -- the “reason” behind mankind’s existence -- and then, through great tragedy, will become a legend in and of themselves.

Yeah, that kinda sounds like Clive, doesn’t it?

Ultima’s a fuckin idiot moron for naming him that and then expecting him to become anything else.

Another fun fact about the word “mythos” and how it relates to Greek tragedies, though:

Greek tragedies were historically performed in worship of Dionysus, who was the god of pleasure and indulgence. So, for Clive to be the human embodiment of Mythos, that means that his very existence serves the purpose of exalting carnal pleasure.

Clive Rosfield is actually, literally just personified sex appeal. He, himself is not a walking libido, per se -- but he’s meant to inspire that in everyone around him.

And he kind of does, considering how many characters in-game want to polish his knob.

Anyway. We’re getting off track I WANT HIM TO GIVE ME SADDLE SORES THAT LAST AT LEAST THREE DAYS

The word “logos” is also not meant to be a title -- and, to be completely honest, I don’t feel like it works the way that the devs wanted it to work. Like, it’s fine. It’s serviceable. But it doesn’t exactly fit what Clive becomes the way that Mythos does.

A more modern interpretation of what the word “logos” means would probably be The Discourse(TM). Logos is the use of logic and reason to explain the nature of the world and mankind’s role in it. Aristotle basically thought of logos as being the thing that sets humans apart from animals -- it’s our sense of self and our ability to think objectively enough to create an actual moral compass.

So, basically, by calling Clive “Logos” Ultima’s just saying he’s attained free will and learned to think rationally on his own -- but that’s also a very basic bitch way of thinking about logos as a concept.

And it’s not as clean of a fit for him as Mythos is, considering that it wasn’t exactly Clive’s sense of self that got him to where he was (he spends like 85% of the game wondering what his purpose is), nor did his attainment of power have anything to do with rational, logical thinking. In fact, the game even goes out of its way to say that Clive is being held up by the faith of those who believe in him, which, I mean --

sure, if you also take into account the whole “Jesus Christ is thought of as being logos incarnate” thing, but like. Then that pulls away from the whole ancient Greek philosophy thing happening and goes into a different metaphor entirely, and everything just gets really muddy.

There are some scholars who believe that the concepts of mythos and logos aren’t mutually exclusive -- and, in fact, that logos actually grew out of mythos. The idea was that people started looking at the myths that they were using and started to apply logic and reason to them in order to get a more nuanced view of the world. But like...

In XVI, mankind started with rational thought when they realized that God (the God that they knew existed and were not just making up as myths) had abandoned them, and then they joined together as a community to create their own image for the world through their use of mythos.

So, I really think the game got it backwards. Clive wasn’t Mythos who became Logos. He was Logos who became Mythos.

But like. Gold star for trying.

I’M JUST SAYING THAT CLIVE HAVING THE TITLE OF “MYTHOS” IS REALLY FUCKING HOT AND EVERY TIME SOMEONE CALLS HIM THAT MY PULSE QUICKENS BECAUSE HE IS LITERALLY SHOULDERING THE HOPES AND DREAMS OF MANKIND AS THE EMBODIMENT OF THE POWER OF HUMAN CREATIVITY IN SERVICE TO A SEX RITUAL

[persephoneism]

I honestly just hate the misconception that Zeus assaulted Demeter. We honestly have no source for that, I'm pretty sure one source says that Zeus came to Demeters bed and that's it?

I'm not sure why this idea is so popular. Maybe it comes from people wanting yo make Demeter even MORE tragic by adding the assault which is just odd.

OR it's because people can't seem to differentiate regional cults who usually had their own beliefs, myths and genealogy. In the Orphic religion (if I remember correctly) Zeus takes the form of a snake and assaults his mother Rhea who gives birth to Persephone. Rhea essentially becomes Demeter and it isn't explained why. People usually ignore the context of regional cults with contradictory stories and try to stick them all together in an attempt to make a cohesive narrative (it never works)

Or maybe people just assume that all Zeus' relationships were not consensual in myth.

There are actual polytheists who even believe that Demeter and Zeus' relationship was non consensual that's how popular the idea is. Maybe my girl just had sex, besides Aphrodite she's the most sexually active of the "traditional" Olympian goddesses

Yes! That's a line from the Theogony; their affair is also brought up in The Iliad, where Zeus names Demeter as one of his favorite lovers. In other texts, both are mentioned as Persephone's parents, but without going into any details about their relationship.

I never got the impression he forced Demeter, and I can't really see how anyone could surmise that from the scarce sources we have on the subject. Also Greeks didn't really shy from describing coerced sexual encounters, even if the victim was a goddess. Women getting tricked, abducted, chased etc etc. We don't have anything of the sort with Demeter and Zeus and no, I do not count Orphism because, like you said, that was originally Rhea (plus I haven't really delved into Orphism enough to decipher why things happen as they do; I've just read some of the Hymns. But much of it seems to be symbolic and allegorical.)

Given how often Zeus is perceived as a villain in online spaces, and written as one in a good chunk of retellings (even those about myths that have nothing to do with him!) I actually do think people are unaware that many of his affairs were consensual. Like, Hera being forced to marry him is such a widespread idea, but that does not occur in any text I'm aware of. In The Iliad, Homer very much implies that they were lovers before they were wed, but you rarely see anyone bringing it up, despite the source for it being, well, Homer, and not some obscure author no one has ever heard of.

Alas, following a religion doesn't mean you've done your research 😞 Demeter is Cool to me because she's not a maiden goddess, but neither is she married; she's out there doing whatever she feels like doing, and nobody is controlling her, or condemning her for living her life.

[shipcestuous]

If people are looking for a good, incestuous webcomic about Greek Mythology, I can't recommend Theia Mania by A-gnosis enough. It's kind of an anthology series, with different stories about different gods, but it's currently in it's Hymn to Demeter arc, so right now there's a lot of focus on the Hades/Persephone relationship going on.

I love it because it's very well-thought-out and well researched, and the author's love for Ancient Greek literature, and history shines through every page. Plus, in it the gods are a big, messy family where everyone's flawed but (while I do have my preferences and it's easy for me to like/sympathize with some characters but not others) no one is a complete monster or a one-dimensional caricature of a villain. There is some incest-negative talk here and there, granted, but I feel it's always very justified by who's saying what and in which circumstances.

At one point, Athena fears (though that's not actually what's happening) that Zeus is going to try and come onto her because... well, I don't want to spoil it because I think the way the author went about the whole "Zeus ate Metis and then Athena came out of his head" thing is really interesting. But anyway, to me that moment feels like it's more about "I thought we were becoming close because you genuinely cared about me as a person and a family member, but now I think you might just you see me as a way to get my mom back, like I don't matter and only she does" or even "I thought you really respected me and cared about me in the platonic way I care about you, but now I suspect for you I might just be another woman to seduce and either discard or keep as a dirty little secret," plus Athena is asexual in a culture where she doesn't really have any tools or resources to help her understand what that means, so at times she's just generally uncomfortable with the way most other gods seem (from her perspective) to be constantly going on about sex and doing crazy, stupid things to get it.

Later on, Persephone is also outraged and upset with Zeus for seducing her and says that's just proof of how fucked-up their family really is... but, again trying not to spoil anything, Zeus deceived her by hiding his identity, thus taking away from her the choice of having sex with *him* or not, and then he kept disrespecting her autonomy and her ability to make her own decisions even while putting her in a very, very tough spot. Which is clearly something that has overall a bigger impact on Persephone than just the idea of having had sex with her dad.

And that's it, really, at least from what I remember. So, in conclusion, the problem is not incest so much as... Zeus.

... okay, no, that was just a joke. XD Zeus does have his good sides, too, and it's not like he's completely incapable of caring about other people, in the end. But the problem is not incest so much as men who treat women like objects, lie to them and hide things from them then expect their trust anyway, think that just because women are open about liking sex or otherwise "not respectable" in some way then they should also be "available" to them specifically, or otherwise disrespect their right to make their own decisions. Which is a point I think the entire comics makes really well, as it doesn't shy away from the problems that come with being a woman in an historical setting like this while at the same time also having plenty of nuanced, flawed female characters who never feel like they're supposed to be perfect little victims just there to show how tragic their suffering is and never have a moment of happiness or fun.

And honestly, I think that's part of what makes A-gnosis' version of Hades/Persephone just so good and engaging. They're uncle and niece, but Persephone isn't uncomfortable with that (unlike with the whole thing with Zeus) because she gets along really well with Hades, they get each other and also each other's perspectives on life, and they respect each other both when it comes to sex (which is also an interesting element on its own, as Persephone is allosexual with a high libido and generally just loves doing it, and feeling sexy, too, while Hades is demisexual and has struggled with understanding what that means to him while feeling like the odd one out among his siblings) and other things. Hades abducts her to take her as his wife after asking permission from Zeus but not her and Demeter, but he doesn't actually want to force her into anything and has a hidden motivation that he discloses right away to Persephone because it involves something that's happening to her that they have previously discussed and they're both worried about, but she's also rightfully angry at him for a bit and bluntly points out to him that he could have tried to find a better way to bring her to the Underworld and work on the problem without other people sticking their noses in their business. They have their own problems but they work through them as two people who care for and are coming to love each other, and on top of that they have very compatible personalities and even sense of humor, and it's so good to see!

Also, he's a grumpy nerd who usually gets along better with the dead (whom he's actually fiercely protective of and cares a great deal about) than the living (who he often doesn't understand, leading him to act dismissive, overly strict, or unapproachable towards them, and who don't usually offer him much understanding and compassion in return) and she's a loner with a noncomformist streak and a punk vibes. Which is an interpretation I'd never really seen before (well, not punk loner Persephone, at least) but now I'm in love with it!

Uh, and also, have you ever wished for an Hades/Persephone romance that treats Demeter as a good mother who dearly loves her daughter instead of an harpy who purposefully keeps her isolated and naive and prevents her from spreading her wings for her own gain? Well, Theia Mania's Demeter is amazing. The comic doesn't go to the opposite extreme of making her the Perfect Mom whose only personality trait is being a mother, either (if I had a nickel for every time I've seen anti Hades/Persephone people clamoring for that while somehow thinking themselves so much more progressive than the Demeter bashers... let's just say, I'd have way more than just two nickels, lol!) and so she ends up as one of the most sympathetic characters in it. She has issues and flaws and she's traumatized (and not just by the Poseidon thing I mentioned above) and, as much as she loves her, she doesn't always really get her daughter, but she's never just an annoying obstacle on the road to Hades/Persephone realizing they want to stay together, she has her own story going on that obviously intersects with theirs but is very much about her. And I just want her to clear up all the misunderstandings between her and Persephone, hopefully reconcile with Hades (she's not okay with him right now both because of his recent actions and because of something else that happened between them in the past), and be happy with her girlfriend (and I mean that in the canonical sense, btw) Hekate!

Sorry for the rant but Theia Mania is the best modern adaptation of Greek Mythology I've read in a while, and I couldn't help but spread the love!!

... er, Theia Mania anon, here again! Just realized I accidentally erase da line in my ask and forgot to rewrite it before sending! I wanted to say there's also a flashback Poseidon/Demeter thing that could maybe also be interpreted as incest-negative, as he... well, let's just say he really doesn't care about her consent, and leave it at that. She understandably feels very violated by this, but because there was a certain chemistry between them at the time and *he* interpreted it as romantic/sexual, he claims she was leading him on/only saying no out loud to protect her honor as an unmarried woman while "really" she wanted him to go on. But again, the point there is not that they're brother and sister, even if personally I got the vibe she *only* saw him as a brother she got along very well with. The point is still that he shouldn't have just taken what he wanted, he should have actually treated her as an equal and respected her wishes, without making up excuses about "what women do" and "what women really think." So, yeah, that's what I was referencing in my comment about Demeter!

How exciting to have something well written to enjoy! I love the sound of all of the nuanced characters and the complicated relationships.

Thanks so much for this detailed rec.