#The story of Demeter and Persephone is so tragic

[deadbaguette]

Doomed mothers in greek mythology they could never make me hate you (Demeter, Thetis, Clytemnestra, Penelope, Andromache, etc)

[hermesmoly]

rate all the greek mytho married couples from most to least interesting (or your favorite to least favorite, depends on you!)

For fun I’ve split them into four categories:

The Really Interesting category, made their relationship everyone’s problem:

- Zeus and Hera (duh)

- Helen and Menelaus (happy ending)

- Helen and Paris (oof! ending)

- Odysseus and Penelope (has a whole word dedicated to their like-minded thinking)

- Rhea and Cronus (tragedy and cannibalism)

- Jason and Medea (tragedy and filicide)

- Clytemnestra and Agamemnon (tragedy and filicide and mariticide and matricide and misogyny and and OH gods-)

- Peleus and Thetis (the arranged mortal marriage blues, but in my head Thetis immortalized Peleus somehow by force and keeps him in her attic) (Because gods be damned if she will be the only one doomed to grieve Achilles)

- Orpheus and Eurydice (mf really went to hell for her and still didn’t get her back :<)

- Hector and Andromache (relatively the most normal ones in this category but still very tragic. Like don’t even ask.)

- Hecuba and Priam (them too)

The Really Cute couple category, bonus if it took them long to get there:

- Hephaestus and Aglaia

- Eros and Psyche

- Dionysus and Ariadne

- Perseus and Andromeda (they kinda remind me of Prince Philip and Aurora which is cute)

- Hebe and Heracles (listennn. they’re cute and important to the Heracles-Hera feud ending)

- Hippomenes and Atalanta (RIP Meleager)

- Philemon and Baucis (one of my fave Zeus myths)

- Alcestis and Admetus (Orpheus and Eurydice but with a happy ending thanks to the interference of Apollo)

- Iphis and Ianthe (trans man rep is good someone PLEASE write about them)

- Tethys and Oceanus (placing them here idc they are cute in my head!! The only titan couple who survived rip to Coeus/Phoebe and all the failed marriages thanks to the Titanomachy)

The Uhhh… Okay Category

- Hades and Persephone (placing them here because while I do think their relationship is interesting AND I find good various retellings of them (excluding LO) like Hades Supergiant, Hadestown, etc I long for more neutral/nuanced takes on the kidnapping, not just by their romance (or lack of romance) but Demeter’s role in the story to be more respected. (It also can’t be helped that HxP has the most over saturated greek mythology content everywhere that people get tired of seeing them, especially portrayed as the “only good greek myth couple” like okay get outta here)

- Gaia and Uranus (I like them, their relationship is clearly important for Cronus’ succession story, but their conflict to me seems so.. short lived? Like you have your son castrate your husband for imprisoning your less appealing babies but now the strife is gone and you work together to tell your son he is destined to be overthrown by his son and telling your grandson to cannibalize his wife as good advice??? Like good for them ig but Rhea and Cronus just do it better imo)

- Hypnos and Pasithea (getting ur wife from a deal with her mom that makes you commit treason by inducing your king with sleep… nothing sketchy about this at allll) (but maybe they’re cute and functional besides that who knows)

- Ceyx and Alcyone (in one version they didn’t do it, in the other they’re just… very dumb to call themselves Zeus and Hera.)

- Procris and Cephalus (eos RUINS lives)

- Hephaestus and Aphrodite (lets be glad it ended bc while they are interesting and Hephaestus did make their marital strife public, I just think they had a better relationship after the divorce)

The Kinda Boring category (to me, subjectively, put down the pitchforks)

- Poseidon and Amphitrite (do they have one myth together that isn’t the Delphin seduction myth… Amphitrite is nice to Poseidon’s worst son. That’s. That’s kinda it. I wish we had more, like how they are with their children or literally anything else to depict a dynamic between them. Especially since they ARE supposed to be the king and queen of the sea. But nope. At least with Oceanus and Tethys they’re both obscure in their personalities so headcanoning stuff is fun to me. Poseidon having a well established personality and Amphitrite… oh dear Amphitrite…)

- Cadmus and Harmonia (they’re a couple in order become ascendants of more tragic humans like Actaeon, Semele and that’s it. They become Snakes in the end to repent for Cadmus’ mistake. Nothing really about their relationship with each other)

- Deucalion and Pyrrha (The Greek rendition of Christianity’s Noah’s Ark and yeah. Thats it)

[aliciavance4228]

Unpopular Opinion: Demeter Did Nothing Wrong

Alright, maybe the title isn't 100% accurate since she almost wiped the entire human race from earth, but you got the idea.

The thing with Demeter is that nowdays she is demonized/villainized all the time. And the most ironic part is that she is demonized by feminists, which leaves me quite confused, considering the fact that she would technically be a great example of female strength, especially when raporting to "Homeric Hymns to Demeter". But before discussing the myth of seasons, let's talk about her background story:

One thing that is certain about Demeter is that she had horrible experiences with almost all men from her life. Her father ate her. Poseidon raped her disguised as a horse. Zeus raped her as well (which led to the birth of Persephone). Iasion was one of the few men from her life who loved and respected her, and whom she lived with for a while before Zeus became jealous and killed him; yes, he is THAT much of a d-

The only one of her brothers who didn’t hurt her in any way at that time was Hades. And if you take into account the versions of the myths in which Hades was born before her that means that he was the one who took care of her as well during the time when they were trapped in their father's stomach. So it is pretty much implied that he was the only one of The Big Three whom she trusted the most, which makes the discovery that he was the one who kidnapped her daughter even more tragic.

Now, about "Homeric Hymns to Demeter": first of all I want to point out the fact that this myth isn't about Hades and Persephone. They are mostly mentioned in this story rather than actually playing an active role in it, because they have more of a symbolic value above it all. Wheter Persephone came to love Hades in time or despised him for the rest of her eternity is irrelevant, because this myth is not about her but Demeter.

Demeter had already faced some disturbing experiences even before Persephone was kidnapped. And considering the fact that her own daughter was a result of SA, it makes perfect sense why she would be protective towards her and raise her outside of Mount Olympus; every woman that was raped would fear that her daughter would face the same cruel fate.

About the abduction part: it is revealed to us at the beginning that Hades asked Zeus if he can marry his daughter, and he agreed. Hades only needed the approval of the father in order to wed her. Back in the Ancient Greece, especially in the Athens, people had a very patriarchal view on marriage. On short: the marriage would be usually planned between the groom and the father of the bride, her mother not knowing anything about what was going on until her daughter was already taken away from her. This myth is a representation of how the Patriarchy was a dominant system even among deities, with Zeus as its supreme figure.

At this point, the myth of seasons can be already considered a comfort story for mothers who had to endure the loss of their daughters either through death or marriage. This myth, however, has a lighter note as well, and that because Demeter, instead of accepting the fate of her daughter, left her anger free and did anything she could so that she would ultimately convince Zeus to give her daughter back, the last solution being leaving hundreds of humans dying of cold and hunger. This part basically shows how even a patriarchal figure like Zeus can be defeated by a mother's rage (or pure female rage, take it as you wish). Even though this myth is supposed to tell us just how seasons appeared, it can also be used as a moral lesson for men: it is better to consult with your wife and daughter before making a decision, or else there will be GREAT CONSEQUENCES.

And finally, one moment that is indeed very touching yet most people are ignoring for some reason is when her mother Rhea appears in front of her and starts to comfort her after she found out that Persephone ate the promeganate seeds, showing how a mother's mouring over her daughter was a common feeling among most female deities from Greek Mythology.

Now, is Demeter perfect? Absolutely not. And that is okay, because instead of that she is supposed to show in this myth a lot of humane and realistic nuances about what being a woman is like. She is a complex character, and completely demonizing her just because you ship Hades and Persephone is quite disturbing in my honest opinion. Wheter or not you like this couple (I won't condemn you because they are still one of the most stable relationships from Greek Mythology, but that basically shows just how f*cked up myths are in general lmao but anyway....), you have to understand the fact that the "Beauty and Beast" and "A mother's love will always conquer" are two tropes that can co-exist, and that things aren’t just black-and-white.

[punkeropercyjackson]

Pr*shippers really be like 'Purity Culture is so funny,like just look at all these medias with canon problematic ships!!!' and then the examples they use are like.Lolita(Humbert is an unreliable narrator who's so self-obsessed he victim blames his own stepdaughter who's life he ruined because she was 'irresisteble' and Dolores is played as an extremely tragic victim).Flowers in the Attic(a horror story where the Dollanganger family's incest is potrayed as what traumatized all of them and unwanted).Labyrinth(Jareth is the villain and Sarah never shows any signs of liking him back).Hades and Persephone(the beginner myth was Hymn to Demeter,which is about how women in ancient greece had no power to protect their daughters from older men and how it's bad and Persephone is miserable the whole time,including struggling against Hades' kidnapping and descriptions of her being a little girl).Batman and Robin(there is no evidence from og comics writers that they intended it the dynamic/archetype/trope as a pedestary metaphor and fan spectulation dosen't count because they're not the ones actually writing comics and Devin Grayson has apologized for her misenterpretations and said she wished she'd never written them and that it was fucked up on her part to).Game of Thrones is a popular one too but George R.R Martin is a raging racist and misogynist who employs propaganda and caricatures all over his books and with other badly written and especially positively potrayed examples,this is almost always the same case!!!!Historically and to this day the elements in 'dark romance' are used as punishments for poc and women and woc most of all,including trans ones and just trans people in general and disabled people and every minority fullstop!!!They are objectively not morally neutral and you have to be a really cruel and self-righteous person to ignore that!Fandom history dosen't erase real history.Fiction is not reality but pr*shippers care more about fictional people than real people and that's why they're bad.You're the bad guys in stories too for a reason and your lack of media comprehension is not the fault of your sociatel structurer 'lessers'

[crazylittlejester]

Saw the post about the Chain and their god domains and my greek mythos obsessed brain got scritched so here is the Chain as Greek gods/mythos:

Time: The old man gave me such a hard time. absolutely going insane over him. He’s Hades. being one of the big three (this fucker split the timeline (almost like how the underworld is split)). Ive never finished MM or OoT but i believe the lore is that all the masks are possessed to put it simply, thus the spirits granting link his power, making Time a maestro of the dead. Many interpretations of hades also depict him as cunning, a trickster, while also being stern, much like our resident little shit (affectionate). Hermes was a big contender here for that reason.

Sky: This was a toss up but im gonna have to say Zeus honestly, mister Godslayer himself. less of a connection between their personalities honestly and more just focusing on their similar dynamics, skills, and symbolism. Obviously we have our favorite lightning motif, plus the position of leadership they both share - in the sense that zeus is more or less the leader of the gods and sky being the ‘leader’ so to speak of the timeline. Plus the parallels between demise and kronos, and zeus/sky’s respective roles there. It was between the big man or persephone.

Twilight: Artemis!! Our very literal leader of the pack. Goddess of the hunt, patron of animals, domain over the moon (cough twilight cough). Though, Demeter and hestia were fighting me here, the fursona won over the country bumpkin sadge.

Warriors: You are Athena! badass in the arena! /ref. Honestly, i feel like i should be assigning them their ‘obvious’ gods and then give them one that attaches to them more symbolically. Yes, everyone’s favorite captain is THE captain goddess. Cunning, strategist, warhead, intelligent, and alot of people forget that Athena is both charismatic and incredibly physically beautiful, in most adaptations. she was in the lineup for paris and guided the trojan war. I forget who it was on here that is a big “wars = helen of troy” truther but theyre absolutely so correct.

Legend: Also a tricky toss up, but i ultimately landed on apollo. Apollo’s known for being a sort of jack of all trades god, between his dominion over the sun, medicine, music, archery, and more. With the vet’s all encompassing experience, with his multitude of instruments and proficiencies in different magical items it made sense. Me, personally, I loved the stories of apollos shape-shifting mortal ventures more than say zeus or any of the other gods. Also, depending on your characterization of the vet, their supposed personalities line up quite well, with apollo being charming and somewhat arrogant/snarky with others

Hyrule: This feels left-field but rulie gets to be Persephone! Adept with magic, goddess of fertility and the harvest and just general growth (of nature), with the double edge of being the queen of the underworld. Ugh im so obsessed with downfall duo rulie is so tragic. left with a desolate wasteland, yet (depending on characterization) ushering in and doing his damndest to nurture life and growth. I love the headcanons where rulie is a survivalist through and through, proficiencies in botany and herbology, respect for the land and its inhabitants. 

Wild: Demeter! Wild is of the land, they are one and the same. The way his world is absolutely teeming with life, and the way he is molded to adapt and live with the land to complete his adventure,,, ugh its too good. He is the most in tune with the wolves, the bees, the cows, the reeds, the flowers, the dragons, the spirits, they ARE him. he woke up with NOTHING, except a vast land full to bursting with life and lessons. 

Four: Hephaestus, obviously. dont get me wrong, I love four so much, but anything else felt blasphemous (The way i could write essays about it—). He is the god of blacksmithing, if i assigned him anything else i fear he may just manage to kill me. 

Wind: Notos! God of the east Wind, known for the bringing of summer, cyclones, and warmth. love that funky little whirlwind hes so fun and spunky. being a god of wind was so on the nose it was too good. I didnt ever consider poseidon, winds too squishy and fluid for that. this kid is bouncing around like a cat 5 hurricane he is the wind, he is free (to cause chaos).

Ugh i love yapping about the mythologies. i may do this again except with minor gods/demigods (i will get back to that legend-achilles parallel i swear). I hope this was amusing to you

OKAY OKAY GO OFF!!!!

(I’m a huge Wars = Helen of Troy truther, I ain’t the only one, but I’ve yapped about it a lot akdkkdk)

you absolutely ate this up on my god i agree i agree i agree i agree. LEGEND AND ACHILLES?? SIGN ME THE FUCK UP IF YOU EVER FEEL LIKE YAPPIN ABOUT THAT THE FLOOR IS YOURS AND THE ASK BOX IS OPEN ID LOVE TO HEAR IT

[meggannn]

a brief analysis on hades npcs' favorite blood sibling

this is not a popularity contest. this is my attempt at analyzing if certain characters prefer a certain sibling based on the info we have now.

prefers mel:

artemis. she likes zag of course, but this is obvious.

this is sad and ofc horrendously unfair to zag, but as predicted, so far hades does speak to mel with more respect than he did zag for most of hades 1, as evidenced by him already calling her "daughter" not "girl." perhaps hades's relationship with zag has changed significantly post-game, and obviously the circumstances and baggage of zag's upbringing (which hades was responsible for) vs hades meeting mel for the first time as a capable young woman are very different, but. yeah.

this is a guess, but i'm gonna say hermes likes her more as well, although only just. he's eager to get her to olympus and they've just been in contact for longer as he's a friend to the silver sisters. however i do think that there's an argument to be made that zag prioritizes speed over mel, both in character and gameplay, so hermes might relate to that with zag more.

possibly charon. i might have put him in the "no preference" category, because i don't think mel being able to understand him better necessarily means he likes her more, but i do think that he might prefer mel juuuuuuust barely only because he offers her loyalty cards without her needing to beat his ass lmao. there is no shoplifting option for mel yet so if it is added, i might change my mind, but so far i don't think she'd be the type to do it anyway.

possibly aphrodite but if so, it's not by much imo. she definitely likes zag, but says to mel "you look like you can break some hearts even without my aid" which sounds like approval of mel's messy situationships lol. to me her nicknames "little godling" vs "gorgeous" kind of implies the slightest more fondness of mel but again, not by much.

prefers zag:

chaos. outwardly asked "where's your more fun brother :/" and explicitly once told mel to shut up lol. also because i think a being called primordial chaos is understandably more interested in a story of "snarky, rebellious kid runs away from home and shakes up family status quo while blasting his way through the underworld" rather than "perfectionist does what she's told/tries to set the world in order." obviously chaos still supports mel, but definitely finds zag more interesting. chaos had to specifically set up trials for mel to get entertainment out of her lol.

skelly. one of my theories as to what's going on with skelly is that he's cosplaying his living self just for shits and giggles because it's a war, but also like. it's skelly lol so who knows. i think his personality in 1 is more his "natural self" which so far we've only seen come out around zag.

cerberus. :/

no preference:

homer. i know homer describes them differently (zag as a lazy, responsibility-avoiding slob vs mel as a tragic duty-focused, orphan princess), but i think that's not because homer prefers mel, but because he's crafting his diction to the story being told. hades 1 is a story with a twist wherein he reveals a laid-back prince is actually just lonely and misses his mom (imo he describes zag much more sympathetically as time goes on), but hades 2 is a war story and mel has been raised as a soldier all her life, so his tone is just different with mel from the offset. it's not fun to make light of her because the stakes are higher.

demeter: the real answer is persephone, persephone is her favorite lol. imo she seems just glad to have alive grandkids.

poseidon and zeus? haven't seemed to notice a preference so far from either of them. they have a more pressing reason to support mel because war and all, but also artemis mentions they don't really believe she can do it, which makes sense, but it makes me wonder if their support with mel is a bit patronizing, or like "well what have we got to lose." they also don't seem particularly worried about zag missing of course but i think these two have so many nieces and nephews and relatives that any preference they have between mel or zag is miniscule.

theories on returning characters we haven't seen yet:

prefers zag: nyx (just due to her raising him... but a case can be made for mel due to the silver sisters/mel living in shadow/hecate's relationship with nyx), dionysus (party boys), achilles & patroclus (probably), sisyphus & orpheus (power of friendship), thanatos & meg (obvious), asterius (respect for their many battles)

prefers mel: athena (level-headed warrior women), ares (a witch assassin groomed specifically for war? "go ahead and torture my family, but i will still come back to kill you over and over again"? absolutely), eurydice (cooking gal pals), theseus (please god it'd be so funny)

no preference: idk dusa? and hopefully persephone. the kids need a parent who doesn't have a favorite. i do think she will always have a soft spot for zag because he found and brought her home, but also i'm sure persephone will also want to spend a lot of one-on-one time gardening with her daughter.

[incorrect-riordanverse]

Hi. Sorry, if this is anyoing. I find Rick Riordan's portray of some of the gods, and goddess interesting, and like le, not all but some. For exemple I really like Hestia, Horus, Seth, Artemis, Nephthys, Thoth, Bess, Tawaret, Anubis, Apollo, and Hermes (I can't really have an openion about how he portrays the Norse gods, because the Magnus series haven't been translated to my language yet, and buying and ordering books in English here costs a lot of money, so I have to wait (there is a gossip that they will publish it, but they say this sainc at least 3, or 4 years)) . And I have to thank Rick Riordan's books that I got into mythology, and started learning it, and that I new want to write stories based on it, and started watching Overly Sarcastic Productions. But there is a need to criticis how he portray some gods, and goddess, and then there is also a something that both him, other writers, and people who talk about mythologys forget.

One problem is Demeter. She didn't tried to kill everyone, so they give her daughter back, the reason why everything almost died was her sadness. The sadness of the mother when they child gets married is a thing (for both sons, and daughters at least I heard it), which is a somewhat common thing, even if the realetionship of the child, and they partner is healthy. I was at my cusins wedding, and my mother said that she will cry aty wedding. This is because they child, is no longer a child, but an adult. Yes I know that in the story can mean something else, because of it's age. But I still think that "Demeter sadness", would be a lot more better then "Demeter tried to kill everyone, so she can get her daughter back because she is an opsesed mother".

Next problem is Hera. I don't want to excuse her actions, by any means. She married Zeus, because he raped her, and out of shame because of it. And this marriage her only source of pride, and probably a way to try to get rid of the shame she feels. Zeus's affers brings her the feeling of shame back. It gives more deapht, portays Hera more humeanly, and is more acuret to mythology (there is just this one version of this myth). And with good write this could be writen in a way that no justify what she does to Zues's other victoms.

Next problem is Zeus's portray. I think the only thing I have to say, is that Zeus is the only gods who doesn't have any version where he don't rape someone. (the only god who don't raped, or kidnaped anyone in any versions is Ares.)

Next problem there is no cannon, and many myths have many defrent version. This is true for Medusa's origin story. In some versions she was a monster from birth, alongside her sisters, in other version she was once a human. We all know this version but it has two version. One where Poseidon rapes Medusa in Athena's temple, then Athena cursed her to punish her. And in the other older version Medusa consented to the act. And there are many more versions of almost every myth, in all mythologys, and I think this can be interesting thing when it cames to writing stories based on mythologys.

Sorry if I sound stupid, or anyoing, and sorry that this is long. I just wanted to write this for so long. And sorry for the grammar, and spelling mistakes English is not my first language.

TW: mentions of SA, rape.

I completely forgot I had an inbox for a while so idk how long this has been here but I’ve finally got around to it! I find this sort of discourse very interesting, and I agree for the most part with what you’re saying!

I heavily dislike interpretations that villainise Demeter in Persephone and Hades’ story too. Lots of modern retellings do this to romanticise Persephone and Hades, and its quite sad (and frustrating). Demeter freezing the crops is such a powerful story about a mother’s love, and its tragic that its been so twisted in modern retellings of the myth. Web comics like ‘Lore Olympus’ and ‘Punderworld’ come to mind for this, but (and maybe this is because of my ass memory of the series… it’s been a while since I read it) I don’t remember Persephone and Demeter’s story being touched on much in the Riordan’s books. I feel like it may have, but I can’t remember explicitly. I remember Hades and Persephone’s relationship being quite rocky though!

I hear what you’re saying about Hera too! She’s been under a lot of fire recently and I know the PJO series plays a large part in that! I can think of ‘Blood of Zeus’ being another factor in this villainising narrative of her, and even though there were some efforts to make the audience view her as sympathetic in that show, it seemed a little backhanded (overemotional woman blinded with rage and taking it out on the wrong people). I agree that it seemed a bit much to portray her as a villain in the series, but I’ll raise two things:

PJO was a series created with children or young teens as the target audience. so the series can’t be that loyal to the original myth, considering how dark it is.

Hera was a good antagonist, and her values and motives in the series were the most accurate to how the Greek gods actually were at the time. They simply did not view mortals as anywhere close to equals, but tools to bring glory to their names. They looked after them as long as they served their interests. A lot of her ‘hate’ stems from the fandom’s misogyny, I believe. It also doesn’t help that the other Greek gods in the series were reduced to caricatures of what they actually were, such as Ares (mean and violent), Aphrodite (shallow and vain), Hades (cold and distant) and Poseidon (cool swag fish dad ig). In all honesty, I understood Hera’s motives the most and I think she was written pretty well. I don’t understand why the fandom hates her so badly unless it’s misogyny or the fact that she was too good of a villain, and felt like a real threat to the characters (the Greek gods were badass, but super scary!).

However, there was that book that Riordan did write about the Greek gods that no doubt contributed to Hera’s ridiculing (that being ‘Percy Jackson and the Greek Gods’ told in the perspective of Percy). He mentioned Zeus ‘tricking’ Hera into marrying him, but disregarded the seriousness of it and continued to make fun of her. I understand its still a kids book so he couldn’t do much, as well as its in character for Percy to ridicule her, but still… I see why some people get upset at that portrayal of her as well. Especially because Hera has had a long-winded past of being villainised and made fun of for her actions, which all stem from deep-rooted misogyny.

Zeus’ portrayal fits hand-in-hand with Hera’s, to be honest. Riordan couldn’t explicitly show how he actually was, so he omitted some stuff, which was fine. It’s funny you make that point about Ares being the only god who never encroached the boundaries of his lovers, because he’s depicted as a misogynist in the series towards his daughter. Which irks me a lot.

Medua’s depictions are also very contested. I believe, and I don’t know if I’m 100% correct, but I’m pretty sure that in the original Greek myth, Medusa had always been a gorgon, and was never human. The myth of Medusa being raped by Poseidon in Athena’s temple is a Roman adaptation, and I think that story is the more popular interpretation currently. I also think that’s the story Riordan was kind of going with, considering he wrote Medusa in the first book to be in love with Poseidon (and in the original myth they had no sexual relationship). Which is… yeah. Disgusting. Again, not saying that Riordan should’ve strictly stuck to that very graphic interpretation, but he didn’t have to portray her like that. And this could’ve been avoided if he did enough research on more interpretations of the myth.

All in all, I don’t think Riordan was genuinely malicious, just ignorant to the implications his portrayals of the gods would have. There’s also the fact that he probably didn’t know how big of a hit Percy Jackson would be, and how much influence it would have over general media surrounding Greek mythology (mostly Greek mythology, but Norse and Egyptian too!). I wasn’t even aware of how problematic it was until this account started gaining a larger following, and so I also had to do research on the topic myself! There’s an assumption that Greek gods don’t have influence over people today, but there are some out there who worship them, and we shouldn’t dismiss that because its a smaller religion.

Thank you for this ask! You weren’t being annoying at all, I love long asks 🫶🫶

[sapphire-weapon]

Clive, hush. Not only is it appropriate to give you the title of Mythos, but it’s one that you should’ve reclaimed and taken for yourself. In fact, I don’t know why Ultima even gave you that title. It’s kind of like naming a kid “Roger Stabbington” and then being surprised when he says “ok” and stabs people.

FFXVI had a lot of storytelling problems, but one of the issues that stands out the most is the refusal to explain the whole Mythos/Logos thing. There’s ATL entries about them, sure, but they’re kind of the most barebones, reductive explanations as to why those particular words/titles were chosen for Clive.

It’s time for me to put my “I was raised in an obnoxiously Greek family” hat back on once again and -- just as I did with the Hades II trailer -- break down all of the dumb ancient Greek nonsense being thrown at us in a video game.

“Mythos” isn’t actually a word that’s meant to be used as a title. The word “mythos” in and of itself refers to one of two things, depending on how it’s being used:

1. the compilation of folklore around a particular subject. For example, there’s the very famous myth of Hades and Persephone’s marriage, but there’s a whole mythos around the explanation of why seasons exist, and Demeter’s mourning of the loss of her daughter is only part of that mythos.

2. the plot of an ancient Greek tragedy -- just in general. The mythos of the story should have some sort of reversal (either the story starts off with the protagonist in a good place and ends with them in a bad one, or vice versa), and the intention should be to evoke fear or pity from the audience. Aristotle believed that the most tragic of stories were those involving violence between friends and/or family (and who does that sound like?) -- and, the worse the tragedy, the stronger the mythos.

So, to use the word “mythos” as a title implies that the person holding this title carries with them the legends and stories born from the hearts of mankind -- the “reason” behind mankind’s existence -- and then, through great tragedy, will become a legend in and of themselves.

Yeah, that kinda sounds like Clive, doesn’t it?

Ultima’s a fuckin idiot moron for naming him that and then expecting him to become anything else.

Another fun fact about the word “mythos” and how it relates to Greek tragedies, though:

Greek tragedies were historically performed in worship of Dionysus, who was the god of pleasure and indulgence. So, for Clive to be the human embodiment of Mythos, that means that his very existence serves the purpose of exalting carnal pleasure.

Clive Rosfield is actually, literally just personified sex appeal. He, himself is not a walking libido, per se -- but he’s meant to inspire that in everyone around him.

And he kind of does, considering how many characters in-game want to polish his knob.

Anyway. We’re getting off track I WANT HIM TO GIVE ME SADDLE SORES THAT LAST AT LEAST THREE DAYS

The word “logos” is also not meant to be a title -- and, to be completely honest, I don’t feel like it works the way that the devs wanted it to work. Like, it’s fine. It’s serviceable. But it doesn’t exactly fit what Clive becomes the way that Mythos does.

A more modern interpretation of what the word “logos” means would probably be The Discourse(TM). Logos is the use of logic and reason to explain the nature of the world and mankind’s role in it. Aristotle basically thought of logos as being the thing that sets humans apart from animals -- it’s our sense of self and our ability to think objectively enough to create an actual moral compass.

So, basically, by calling Clive “Logos” Ultima’s just saying he’s attained free will and learned to think rationally on his own -- but that’s also a very basic bitch way of thinking about logos as a concept.

And it’s not as clean of a fit for him as Mythos is, considering that it wasn’t exactly Clive’s sense of self that got him to where he was (he spends like 85% of the game wondering what his purpose is), nor did his attainment of power have anything to do with rational, logical thinking. In fact, the game even goes out of its way to say that Clive is being held up by the faith of those who believe in him, which, I mean --

sure, if you also take into account the whole “Jesus Christ is thought of as being logos incarnate” thing, but like. Then that pulls away from the whole ancient Greek philosophy thing happening and goes into a different metaphor entirely, and everything just gets really muddy.

There are some scholars who believe that the concepts of mythos and logos aren’t mutually exclusive -- and, in fact, that logos actually grew out of mythos. The idea was that people started looking at the myths that they were using and started to apply logic and reason to them in order to get a more nuanced view of the world. But like...

In XVI, mankind started with rational thought when they realized that God (the God that they knew existed and were not just making up as myths) had abandoned them, and then they joined together as a community to create their own image for the world through their use of mythos.

So, I really think the game got it backwards. Clive wasn’t Mythos who became Logos. He was Logos who became Mythos.

But like. Gold star for trying.

I’M JUST SAYING THAT CLIVE HAVING THE TITLE OF “MYTHOS” IS REALLY FUCKING HOT AND EVERY TIME SOMEONE CALLS HIM THAT MY PULSE QUICKENS BECAUSE HE IS LITERALLY SHOULDERING THE HOPES AND DREAMS OF MANKIND AS THE EMBODIMENT OF THE POWER OF HUMAN CREATIVITY IN SERVICE TO A SEX RITUAL

[shipcestuous]

If people are looking for a good, incestuous webcomic about Greek Mythology, I can't recommend Theia Mania by A-gnosis enough. It's kind of an anthology series, with different stories about different gods, but it's currently in it's Hymn to Demeter arc, so right now there's a lot of focus on the Hades/Persephone relationship going on.

I love it because it's very well-thought-out and well researched, and the author's love for Ancient Greek literature, and history shines through every page. Plus, in it the gods are a big, messy family where everyone's flawed but (while I do have my preferences and it's easy for me to like/sympathize with some characters but not others) no one is a complete monster or a one-dimensional caricature of a villain. There is some incest-negative talk here and there, granted, but I feel it's always very justified by who's saying what and in which circumstances.

At one point, Athena fears (though that's not actually what's happening) that Zeus is going to try and come onto her because... well, I don't want to spoil it because I think the way the author went about the whole "Zeus ate Metis and then Athena came out of his head" thing is really interesting. But anyway, to me that moment feels like it's more about "I thought we were becoming close because you genuinely cared about me as a person and a family member, but now I think you might just you see me as a way to get my mom back, like I don't matter and only she does" or even "I thought you really respected me and cared about me in the platonic way I care about you, but now I suspect for you I might just be another woman to seduce and either discard or keep as a dirty little secret," plus Athena is asexual in a culture where she doesn't really have any tools or resources to help her understand what that means, so at times she's just generally uncomfortable with the way most other gods seem (from her perspective) to be constantly going on about sex and doing crazy, stupid things to get it.

Later on, Persephone is also outraged and upset with Zeus for seducing her and says that's just proof of how fucked-up their family really is... but, again trying not to spoil anything, Zeus deceived her by hiding his identity, thus taking away from her the choice of having sex with *him* or not, and then he kept disrespecting her autonomy and her ability to make her own decisions even while putting her in a very, very tough spot. Which is clearly something that has overall a bigger impact on Persephone than just the idea of having had sex with her dad.

And that's it, really, at least from what I remember. So, in conclusion, the problem is not incest so much as... Zeus.

... okay, no, that was just a joke. XD Zeus does have his good sides, too, and it's not like he's completely incapable of caring about other people, in the end. But the problem is not incest so much as men who treat women like objects, lie to them and hide things from them then expect their trust anyway, think that just because women are open about liking sex or otherwise "not respectable" in some way then they should also be "available" to them specifically, or otherwise disrespect their right to make their own decisions. Which is a point I think the entire comics makes really well, as it doesn't shy away from the problems that come with being a woman in an historical setting like this while at the same time also having plenty of nuanced, flawed female characters who never feel like they're supposed to be perfect little victims just there to show how tragic their suffering is and never have a moment of happiness or fun.

And honestly, I think that's part of what makes A-gnosis' version of Hades/Persephone just so good and engaging. They're uncle and niece, but Persephone isn't uncomfortable with that (unlike with the whole thing with Zeus) because she gets along really well with Hades, they get each other and also each other's perspectives on life, and they respect each other both when it comes to sex (which is also an interesting element on its own, as Persephone is allosexual with a high libido and generally just loves doing it, and feeling sexy, too, while Hades is demisexual and has struggled with understanding what that means to him while feeling like the odd one out among his siblings) and other things. Hades abducts her to take her as his wife after asking permission from Zeus but not her and Demeter, but he doesn't actually want to force her into anything and has a hidden motivation that he discloses right away to Persephone because it involves something that's happening to her that they have previously discussed and they're both worried about, but she's also rightfully angry at him for a bit and bluntly points out to him that he could have tried to find a better way to bring her to the Underworld and work on the problem without other people sticking their noses in their business. They have their own problems but they work through them as two people who care for and are coming to love each other, and on top of that they have very compatible personalities and even sense of humor, and it's so good to see!

Also, he's a grumpy nerd who usually gets along better with the dead (whom he's actually fiercely protective of and cares a great deal about) than the living (who he often doesn't understand, leading him to act dismissive, overly strict, or unapproachable towards them, and who don't usually offer him much understanding and compassion in return) and she's a loner with a noncomformist streak and a punk vibes. Which is an interpretation I'd never really seen before (well, not punk loner Persephone, at least) but now I'm in love with it!

Uh, and also, have you ever wished for an Hades/Persephone romance that treats Demeter as a good mother who dearly loves her daughter instead of an harpy who purposefully keeps her isolated and naive and prevents her from spreading her wings for her own gain? Well, Theia Mania's Demeter is amazing. The comic doesn't go to the opposite extreme of making her the Perfect Mom whose only personality trait is being a mother, either (if I had a nickel for every time I've seen anti Hades/Persephone people clamoring for that while somehow thinking themselves so much more progressive than the Demeter bashers... let's just say, I'd have way more than just two nickels, lol!) and so she ends up as one of the most sympathetic characters in it. She has issues and flaws and she's traumatized (and not just by the Poseidon thing I mentioned above) and, as much as she loves her, she doesn't always really get her daughter, but she's never just an annoying obstacle on the road to Hades/Persephone realizing they want to stay together, she has her own story going on that obviously intersects with theirs but is very much about her. And I just want her to clear up all the misunderstandings between her and Persephone, hopefully reconcile with Hades (she's not okay with him right now both because of his recent actions and because of something else that happened between them in the past), and be happy with her girlfriend (and I mean that in the canonical sense, btw) Hekate!

Sorry for the rant but Theia Mania is the best modern adaptation of Greek Mythology I've read in a while, and I couldn't help but spread the love!!

... er, Theia Mania anon, here again! Just realized I accidentally erase da line in my ask and forgot to rewrite it before sending! I wanted to say there's also a flashback Poseidon/Demeter thing that could maybe also be interpreted as incest-negative, as he... well, let's just say he really doesn't care about her consent, and leave it at that. She understandably feels very violated by this, but because there was a certain chemistry between them at the time and *he* interpreted it as romantic/sexual, he claims she was leading him on/only saying no out loud to protect her honor as an unmarried woman while "really" she wanted him to go on. But again, the point there is not that they're brother and sister, even if personally I got the vibe she *only* saw him as a brother she got along very well with. The point is still that he shouldn't have just taken what he wanted, he should have actually treated her as an equal and respected her wishes, without making up excuses about "what women do" and "what women really think." So, yeah, that's what I was referencing in my comment about Demeter!

How exciting to have something well written to enjoy! I love the sound of all of the nuanced characters and the complicated relationships.

Thanks so much for this detailed rec.

[minthe-lover]

Chapter 232 Analysis

I keep liking panels for the complete opposite reason I think rs wants us to. cause holy fuck this panel slaps, it's fucking terrifying. This actually looks like Hades is abducting Persephone and if it was actually written to be that this panel would be great! it isn't perfect.. I hate how bored persephone looks.. which is a problem with basically the first half of the chapter.

She has no emotions in her face.. she doesn't look upset or worried fuck she doesn't even look scared. This is supposed to be this big emotional moment between her, hades and demeter and they don't even say anything to demeter. Like even a sarcastic or sad goodbye... we just get nothing. If any artist want to add some actual emotion onto her face It would make this panel perfect ahuekafh

also the fact that it's reused like four times.. either zoomed in or out. You can see it so badly when it's zoomed out.. cause they didn't really account for the glow at this angle so it looks so awkward.

Now for this weeks discussion on how Demeter is fucking right. Demeter is right! Hades has a history of taking advantage of others while their in pain. Christ even with persephone, she ended up at his house drunk and was clearly extremely emotionally vulnerable and the next morning he tried to have sex with her. He did the same with minthe, you could even say he did the same with hera as it's heavily implied she turned to hades because of her troubled relationship with zeus.

Hades made the choice to propose to Persephone during an emotionally vulnerable time. given how easily they left afterwards it's clear that hades DIDN'T HAVE TO FUCKING PROPOSE. Especially given how persephone made it extremely fucking clear that she wanted to have a longer dating period. All the shit and drama in this whole chapter could have been rightfully avoided if hades just respected persephone wishes with that.

Also again Demeter is right.. because hades choice to propose to Persephone at this time it's extremely fucking likely that the fact demeter was there influenced her answer. Persephone wasn't giving the environment or chance to truly make this decision on her own. of course it was influenced by Demeter and this situation. Acting like it isn't is just.. stupid. Demeter is wrong for pointing out these point, their extremely fucking clear.

Again persephone just looks board and fucking leaves without saying a single thing to her mother. Again it's clear that Demeter is fucking devastated and terrified for her daughter... her story is just so much more emotional and heartbreaking then any sad relationship drama that rs writes for hxp. Rs just keeps making Demeter an objectively more tragic and interesting character then Persephone... the amount of disrespect she gets is just so sad.

Now I don't fully mind a tension release after a heavy moment, but it's just not done well. It's to quick and just doesn't give the problem enough room to breath first. We barely get more of a hand full of panels before persephone is laughing about hades dick being out and we just completely move on.

Good tension release need to let the conflict be it's own thing before letting the characters breath. A good examples are the episodes 12s of bojack horseman, each season ends on a fundamentally positive note. Even after episodes that are some of the more depressing thing you can watch.. the characters are given time to breath, laugh and starts on the next leg of their story. The problem here is that the problem just disappears... The connecting through line is just an eh joke.. it's funny in concept but kinda uncomfortable.. especially when persephone mentions the scared virgins... like people who are very clearly not one you would want your dick out in front of.

Also be greatful I kept my talk of other media I like short... this was like twice as long before ahfuekahke

Now probably the dumbest decision rs has made in a long time is removing persephone green hands. They where a show of her hard work and where at least one physical 'flaw' that she had. They were supposed to be ugly and despite them just looking more just like green gloves most of the time, but it was part of persephone growth and actually made her look different from season 1. Persphone constantly being praised and worshiped for being perfect and having the one thing considered a flaw just be removed cause... it's like demeter is just sad.

Also the missing eyebrow and like fucking blow up doll looking face.. it's just creepy.

Also!! remember that whole shit about how persephone wore white cause purity and demeter.. yeah so it didn't take long for rs to completely fucking forget that. One shes wearing a white scar.. and two shes looking at fucking white wedding dresses. plus small spoilers.. she ends up with a white fucking wedding dress during the actual wedding. It's so fucking clear that was a terrible point and yet rs fails to even try and stand by it.

Also maybe it's just me, but I'm really tired of all the "hehe look this services workers are scared of hades and persephone! how funny! look how terrified they are!" Like there is only so many times I can see this joke before it's just boring and over done. Plus also like is it really a smart idea to draw attention to how much people are terrified of are leads when we're supposed to be routing for them?

uhhh so yeah for the whole xenia source thing... just go read this post by @genericpuff. It makes the point for how this is really dumb way better then I could.

As for the actual plot point.. uhhh it's honestly just more casual sexism from hades. calling demeter 'that women' along with assuming that cause zeus gave permission is all good. Like that is fucked up right? and framing Demeter as bad for being rightfully upset that her daughter is marrying an asshole.

also just.. literally any story besides the hxp one is more interesting, for fuck sake their individual stories are more interesting then any moment they spend together. Like it's such boring romance story that rs is failing to make more interesting... and it sucks cause the story bends to it's will and it draws away from either more interesting romances or just more interesting ideas and characters. Hera is suffering but hades and persephone wedding is more important.. cause yeah..

rs really is just burning down this webtoon.. it sucks and is really just the perfect example of wasted potential.

[ladynicte]

Persephone eventually warms up to Nico, because honestly, Nico is down at the underworld every other day, and spending what little time she actually gets to spend with her husband at their home, being bitter about this kid, is just not worth it.

So she tells herself to go easy on it, at least just a little bit more, and then, eventually they find themselves forced to spend more and more time together, and the kid doesn't really like her, and she doesn't like him either, but they discover there's some things they can agree on.

Some to do with Hades, and the way he runs the place, some to do with the servants, and the shades, the ghosts too.

At some point she even finds herself laughing and nodding along, as Nico complains over some job Demeter had him do during his time on the fields, tending to Persephone's own mother's precious harvest.

She can relate, she realizes it is nice having somebody else around to chitchat about that. Most don't even remember what the surface was like at all anymore.

But, of course, she doesn't preen on him at all.

She's Queen of The Underworld, she's the master of the house, she cannot be seen going so easy on anybody. In the underworld the rulers have a very important reputation to uphold.

Afterwards, the whole mess with the sword happens, because she is Persephone, and she's not about to just sit back while there's outside forces threatening her family like that.

She's smart, she knows she doesn't really have that many options in the underworld if she doesn't want the Hades himself to find out immediately.

So she calls for Nico, that boy Percy Jackson, and that other girl, child of Zeus.

She's sure it be fine, deep down in their realm, hidden away by the darkness, nobody has to know she's getting help from this specific set of demigods.

When she sees Thalia she's reminded of quite a few things relating to Zeus, his wife, and the children that get caught in their crossfire.

Persephone, she has always been fond of the heros, they are brave and passionate, and fun. They are not afraid to chase after what they want. She knows about that.

She's met quite a few heroes, who reached the end of their tragic life stories already, hearing their tales, Hera tended to get involved in their lives more often than not.

More so the ones related to Zeus in any way. Persephone knows the feeling.

When that whole mess is dealt with, she expects maybe more than just some smugness from the kid, at least, it's not like she's ever been very kind to him, but no, it never comes.

Persephone realizes she's now officially been both of the roles she met in her own youth, the bastard child, and the insupportable step-mother.

She was never all that fond of Hera, but she never thought she would ever relate to her, and yet, listening to those heroes's stories.

She realizes maybe she's really been a little bit like Nico's personal Hera.

Not to the same extent of course, but well, aren't there enough bitter godly queens fighting their husbands, and hating their offsprings already.

Neither do the demigods nor the gods need another one.

But still, she's Persephone and she is to be revered, so she doesn't just start being nice for no reason to Nico, but if she does curse him a little, with some actually not so bad things, like sudden flowers that blossom and wither away, just as fast, wherever he steps, or if she grants him some bigger control over the cold he can produce.

If she slips him some secrets about her mother's harvest, and how to best handle it, that she herself had to learn the hard way on her youth.

Who's gonna tell her anything for it.

If it makes her husband happy, to see her more at ease and comfortable in their home, even when Nico drops by, that just means the house as a general is doing better now.

So no, Persephone does not care at all for the child her husband had with that other woman, and godly intervention is completely prohibited.

But, if she knows something is gonna happen, maybe she just so very happens to leave one of her precious pomegranates right where Nico can find them, and if one of her loyal servants just so very happens to be nearby, and lets it slip just how useful those little seeds can be, it's not like anybody really has to find out, right.

[raiffeldrakon123]

Percy Jackson | Ideas #1

So... I had an idea on my mind, and decided to share it. It goes something like this: One day, both Hades and Persephone, unbeknownst to each other, decide to create an Avatar —a term that might change. In essence, an Avatar is a human saved from being stillborn when a god or goddess imbues them with a fragment of their own divinity. This act turns the infant into an extension of the god's being. Gods typically do this when they're bored but too busy to personally engage in entertainment. The Avatar remains unaware of their divine origins, and the god or goddess only gains access to their Avatar’s memories and experiences upon their death.

In this scenario, Hades and Persephone each secretly create an Avatar while apart —Persephone is staying with her mother during the warmer months, and Demeter, as always, tries to keep her and Hades separated. To combat her isolation, Persephone creates her Avatar in secret.

By a strange twist of fate, both Avatars meet while at school. They spend seven years together, eventually marry, and have a child. Tragically, a year after the child's birth, they are murdered and their house is destroyed. With their deaths, Hades and Persephone suddenly receive the flood of memories, emotions, and experiences of their respective Avatars.

Now, Hades and Persephone face a dilemma. Hades had sworn off fathering any more children after the events of World War II and the Great Prophecy, while Persephone had never had a demigod child before. Nervous, Persephone confesses to Hades what she had done, barely giving him a chance to react. To her surprise, Hades isn't angry. Instead, he reveals that something about her story felt familiar—because his Avatar was married to hers.

They are now confronted with a new, even more perplexing problem: Their Avatars had a child together... but what did that mean for the child —and for them?

[chthonicgodling]

Why does Hades loathe Macaria so much? You would think that since Hades and Persephone are the ultimate couple and love each other very much he would love someone that came from that love and would be “the best of both of them? and that she looked like the person he loves most (Persephone) would be an added bonus. Was she even planned? Were they excited to become parents? From what you described of Hades as being a ruthless tyrant king it’s hard to believe he is capable of loving someone. How did he fall in love with Persephone? What attracted each of them to each other ? Or is it much closer to the Greek myth of the abduction of Persephone?

gasps…… okay okay. okay. tearing myself away (BRIEFLY) from clutching eLoki.,,,

..,,to redirect my spotlight to MACI AND FAMILY

seen here awwww cute. several years before disaster(s).

because— I wanna talk about Hades and Maci in depth, have I gotten thoroughly into this before here??? other than my quips and captions??? I dont THINK so, not all in one place?!!! So first, a note -

Elysium!Hades & Seph DO love each other very much; they’re a wonderful couple who are wholly devoted to each other, kind and compassionate to their respective needs, are inseparable (except for when they’re physically separated via ancient accordance rip) and are each other’s best friends!

…they also are terrible parents and should never have had children. JOIN ME ON A WALK THROUGH MACI’S CHILDHOOD, SUPER LONG AND IN DEPTH AND BEHIND THE CUT, a long overdue “reveal” conversation about the slow disintegration of Maci and Hades’ relationship long before the elysiumverse canon events “began” and so a very deep dive into part of Maci’s pre-canon backstory! I actually have a lot of this written out.. somewhere ;) in progress and some of this comes from that wip so!!! One day if you see repeats… shh

This is so, so, so, so long. buckle up

[cw for: every type of abuse basically, wrt of course Thanatos has to be mentioned in here - also a brief mention of Zeus’ assault on Seph when Meli was born. Proceed with general caution this whole thing is overall a tragic and upsetting MESS. ]

the very beginning of Hades and Seph getting together first of all, is pretty much in line with the original myth, though Elysium has always been a story about Maci and so I fully don’t know ~or care anymore~ about all the intricate ins and outs of their details (a lot has been retconned and replaced with…. Blank space lmao ,, It’s not relevant in any way Maci’s parents are such background characters to canon current Elysium soooo-)

here are the details that I know DO exist (and based on my personal staples of Hades/Persephone stories lmao)

….warning this is not a safe space for Demeter apologists

• -Hades and Seph first met each other by happenstance at a gathering on Olympus that Hades was required to attend, the two most sarcastic gods in the crowd of course ended up gravitating towards each other and exchanging some friendly cynical banter before Demeter noticed who her daughter was talking to and dragged her promptly away.

• -Hades was - to his mortification and distress - immediately in love with her. Seph, immediately aware of this and quite tickled by it, was ABSOLUTELY flirting and ABSOLUTELY into him too - but with no real expectation that anything would ever come of it??? Demeter kept her possessively and almost literally under lock and key so let’s be realistic here.

• -upon finding out the scoop about Seph (interrogating Hecate, an old Underworld friend who also had sporadic contact with Demeter enough to gossip💞) Hades was actually quite horrified that Demeter was - like I said - possessively almost literally keeping her under lock and key what the fuck someone should do something about that???? what the fuck????? he—

• …something something something idk whatever BUT the end result of all that outrage + selfish crushy feelings was that he very much DID still kidnap Seph to the Underworld and then just kinda. set her up with a whole room in the palace and gave her awkward space. The kidnapping thing being still canon in here is so crucial to me mainly bc I think it’s the funniest (initially awkwardly platonic) first date in the world

• -Seph was initially PISSED about all that specifically but. got over it fast and fell in love with him lmao something something something etc love story deets whatever whatever. meanwhile Demeter went absolutely ballistic in the mortal world; pomegranate seeds were *DELIBERATELY* ingested; Demeter continued to hold all of earth hostage, Zeus intervened to stop the mass frozen famine but Seph had eaten the food of the dead and couldn’t fully leave so HA — Demeter and Zeus bullied Seph and Hades into signing what the elysiumverse calls The Pomegranate Agreement, dictating Seph’s seasonal location a la mythology, forevermore.

like I said - ultimately - whatever whatever whatever none of that is really important to me anymore and I have no further details to provide. Important result is they’re together happily ever after and here we are. Onto Maci!

One hundred years after Seph and Hades had gotten together, Seph became fixated on the wild and crazy idea of having a baby and approached Hades about it… his response was basically - ugh what, why???

well, because she wanted one, why else? and also INDEED wouldn’t it be so lovely to create something from half of each of them?? wouldn’t it????? please please please please please?????? 🥺🥺🥺 Ultimately, as spring approached, Seph settled with “just take the season to think about it and🥺don’t just say yes because you want me to be happy, I want you to want them too🥺but… please please please🥺”

by the time she returned that autumn, of COURSE Hades said yes and OF COURSE he literally did only say it to appease her. Was Seph aware of this??? Y…yeah probably but mission accomplished it would be fine! HER parent was terrible and HIS parents were terrible so they knew exactly what NOT to do so parenting would be easy, and even with Hades’ clear reluctance “once the baby is here you’ll come around,” she said and. ooooookay fine…. Fineeeeeeee so baby Maci was conceived that very late winter.

(Seph’s pregnancy was mostly spent in the upper world, which was. horrible, and naturally Demeter was BIG MAD and DISGUSTED when she caught on)

Maci, as we know, was born the spitting image of Seph, and all the colors of the Elysian Fields, though with the quirky ability to burst into flame like Tartarus. Hades WAS quite enamored with his daughter when she was tiny. A temporary clause had been added to the Pomegranate Agreement at Hades’ demand, permitting Seph to remain full time in the Underworld with Maci for the first five years of Maci’s life - and then Maci would travel with Seph seasonally ever more.

And those first five years were great! The entire Underworld was obsessed with its first ever heiress and little Princess, and Maci was an absolutely adorable Velcro baby who by the age of five was a hyperactive and bubbly toddler quite accustomed to having everything she ever wanted, and having everyone wrapped around her finger at all time. Including Hades, who - though never AFFECTIONATE or openly emotional it’s just not the way he is - doted upon her in HIS way, showering her with gifts and to the kingdom’s shock PERMITTING her to climb around his throne and follow him all around anywhere he went. as a teeny child he was Maci’s hero 🥺🥺

When Maci was five, Demeter was quick to remind them that the agreement’s clause had ended and so Seph and Maci traveled for the first time together to the upper world, and for the next five years of Maci’s life she was subjected to a MUCH different vibe for half of the year. For six months in the upper world - She was miserable without her dad, missed her home kingdom, and also Demeter and her army of stuck up nymphs were OBNOXIOUS to her, trying constantly to get her to revoke the Underworld and her father lmao aughhhh???

But Maci reacted to this by starting a WAR in return - for six months of the year from ages 5 to 10, Maci, naturally short tempered anyway, smugly picked as many fights as she could, set everything on fire, and generally fought viciously with her obnoxious grandmother both behind Seph’s back and to her face

Meanwhile, the other half of every year was spent back HOME as a happy family, all moods improved with her parents reunited together, in luxury within her familiar palace and kingdom of adoring worshippers. Maci met kiddo!Hypnos & Thanatos when she was 6 and they were 11, and she also spent her time following them dutifully around!

So By the time Maci was 10, Seph petitioned Demeter to allow Maci to choose where SHE would rather spend her time - aaaand by the time Maci was 10, Demeter had utterly given up on ever getting to take her to Olympus and was SO eager to be rid of the little brat. she was beyond relieved when Maci obviously and emphatically decided to stay in the Underworld full time. Her friends were there, her palace was there, and everything was always perfect when she was together with both her parents in the fall-winter, so the choice was obvious.

THIS was the beginning of the end.

Please remember that through Maci’s entire life at this point, she had never gotten to meet the version of Hades that existed when Seph WASN’T there. Hades…. Hm. Okay I was perhaps being harsh when I’d called him a tyrant earlier lmao but.,, you see like.,,

Hades is not… nice. He’s temperamental and quick to anger, where do we think Maci got it from hello. He’s somber and moody and usually scowling-quiet and grim and has no sense of humor and very little patience or tolerance for nonsense. It’s Seph only, somehow, who awakened a lighter side of him, an actual SMILE in him, actual LOVE in him. It’s Seph only that that side comes out around. And with Maci….

Maci by the age of 10 was LOUD and HYPER and NEEDY and BUBBLY and yes just an innocent child who didn’t deserve anything I’m about to write about :( but was tolerable to Hades really with Seph’s consistent laidback patient demeanor there, as she balanced out Maci’s high maintenance hyperactivity. SURE Hades was fond of the parts of Maci that reminded him of his wife but - the older Maci got, the less like Seph she became. Without Seph there as well, Hades would quickly - IMMEDIATELY - realize that he was not only ill equipped to handle Maci, but also utterly uninterested in learning, reverting instead to his standard springtime shutdown.

And so, obliviously, Seph kissed her daughter goodbye for the first spring Maci would spend in the Underworld and then drifted right off, leaving Maci eager and excited to spend six months bonding with her dad but instead!! INSTEAD!! Instead of embracing his daughter to cope with Seph’s absence alongside him together, Hades proceeded to utterly blindside Maci by just….. completely withdrawing. Emotionally - and physically - icing her out entirely.

Like a switch had flipped - Daily, and for six months, TEN YEAR OLD Maci suddenly found herself mostly alone within the halls of their palace, and her rare interactions with her father were newly short and cold.

This was all made worse by the whiplash when Seph came back and everything reverted back to NORMAL!???? Afraid of bursting the bubble that had suddenly returned to her, Maci didn’t say anything at all to her mom about how the year had been and lied that everything had been perfectly fine. Six months later Seph left again and Hades withdrew AGAIN - leaving Maci frustrated once more, but no longer as shell-shocked for round two— she soon became ANGRY.

Reeling from this abandonment oh my god she was just a CHILD Maci turned to her friends for support and….. at this point is when the SECOND circumstance leading to the overall collapse of it all came into play. Because this of course meant that in the absence of Hades’ attention, Maci was turning to her best friend Thanatos for comfort.

this is a story about Maci and Hades so I’m not gonna go too much into the Thanatos specific branches (I can but that’s a story for a different time 🤪). For the sake of this narrative, what is important to remember is that Thanatos had NEVER had her best interests at heart and, by year two, began to *actively* feed into her anxieties and distress about Hades ignoring her. Maci was so angry this time around at her dad that she began to act out around him, and very quickly realized that… oh interesting Hades suddenly noticed her real quick when she was MISBEHAVING. well that changed EVERYTHING. plus —

Thanatos enthusiastically encouraged her to continue picking fights with her father instead of just talking to him. He was trying now deliberately to drive a wedge between them so that he could isolate Maci for his own purposes. Butttt Maci was oblivious to this manipulation and followed his advice and her own instincts.

A good father would have taken this as a wake up call, Maci’s sudden moody rage and attitude and fits of destruction - or at least a good father would have sat her down to talk about what was bothering her, maybe gotten the opportunity to start over with her. But instead, Hades REAL FUCKIN MATURE responded to his preteen daughter goading him on by FALLING FOR THE BAIT and just raging back at her??!?!!?!?

because!!! Hades was temperamental to begin with and was growing more irritated with Maci's behavior... and uh, personality, and presence, day by day. By the time Maci was 11 years old SHE had wholly decided that the best and only way to interact with her father was by provoking him into yelling at her - Thanatos whispering in her ear the whole time that she was right and Hades hated her.

Back then at this point I don’t think Hades HATED her, I think he just…. Had no idea what to do with her!?? Was alarmed and put off by her???? Then made the terrible decision to not get to the bottom of it all, but instead was like “oh the little brat is picking fights WELL I’LL SHOW HER A FIGHT” this is a terrible way to “parent” I literally don’t think Hades ever considered that Maci was a CHILD when reflecting on her behavior

This WENT ON for YEARS and every time Seph came back the two of them - didn’t want to upset her and just, mutually and silently, agreed to pretend like nothing was wrong. though still Maci became a little louder, cockier, meaner, smugly knowing that Hades would never engage while his wife was home. Eventually each springtime as Maci grew into a Troubled Teen, she was making it a point to be as difficult as possible when interacting with her father while Hades just bickered back and things between them got worse and worse.

By the time she was 14, she could barely stand to be in the same room as Hades. the palace shared by just the two of them sat with uncomfortably tense silence, only ever broken by screaming arguments that ended in Hades throwing her out of the palace, or Maci storming out on her own, either way ending up back with Thanatos and Hypnos again. She’d slink back days later even moodier and repeat it all. This had all gotten so fucking bad that by the next year, when she was 15, the tension between them was too much to hide from Seph for the first ever time in the fall.

Seph uhhhhh. uhhhhhhhhhhh. well. F…. felt Maci’s outrageous attitude was blatant even to her, since in Seph’s eyes, Hades could do no wrong, despite clearly being in the wrong. HOWEVER she was still totally horrified to see this shattered relationship out of nowhere (“nowhere”). She pushed Hades to build Maci her Elysium palace (!!) as a peace offering and a 16th birthday present, which he.,, reluctantly did. But then Maci, wThanatos in her ear AGAIN, rejected it obnoxiously and furiously, - this was a last straw for Hades, spurring their worst and biggest fight to date by that point. Seph sOMEHOW MADE THE DECISION TO STAY NEUTRAL BETWEEN THEM - Maci, mentally, began to crack in the worst way. After like seven straight years of this there was something inside her beginning to claw in desperation with a frantic, anxious need to be loved, and seen by someone, anyone, rising in desperation. In the background of all this with Hades, Thanatos had been flaunting an endless string of girlfriends in her face which didn’t help anything either and Maci both felt like she was completely alone and TERRIFIED to BE alone??

all of this was the perfect storm for what happened next - much of this I think might be common knowledge here idk - in which Maci had a manic breakdown at the age of 17 that spurred her to insanely prostitute herself to literally anyone who’d have her in the Underworld, though instead first being swept straight into the arms of Thanatos, where well. I know we all know this part of the story. Now that Thanatos had successfully separated Maci from her family, his pretenses dropped, and the next four ish years or so consisted of their horrible terrible relationship - again the Thanatos branch is a whole different post, so back to Hades.

For four years, Hades did not bother to notice what was happening to Maci. oh she was quieter now and never around? good thank god 😒 Thanatos was not subtle about it - she was BLEEDING half the time for gods’ sake - Hades was so irritated by her presence by this time that he just. Didn’t pay it any mind. By this point Hades had started to actively dislike Maci, finding her obnoxious and abrasive and telling her so with no regards to the fact that he was the one who’d inadvertently shaped her to be this way. Thanatos once again smugly twisted the knife, pointing out to Maci how little Hades cared and how unlikely it was he would ever notice what was happening to her. There was no evidence to support the contrary so like yeah, clearly Hades didn’t give a shit! by this point though Thanatos was pretty spot on :(

in fact NEITHER of Maci’s parents fucking noticed anything was wrong with her personal life oh my god. The gravity of the nightmare Maci was living in sank in whenever she was alone with her thoughts, so she did everything she could to avoid ever being alone and distracted herself by seducing anyone across the Underworld, and soon she was spending all of her time in random beds or with Thanatos and was rarely at her home palace - and who the fuck knows if her parents even noticed that she was a touch more withdrawn, a touch angrier, a touch cagier or whether they had heard the rumors about her activities cause neither of them ever addressed her about it!!

eventually it all came to a head when Thanatos tried to very credibly actually kill Maci, the shock of which jarred her enough to (trigger an entire physical brawl between them, but while that was happening) send Hypnos for help, and with Seph arriving to witness this horrific scene first hand at long last she and Hades found out the crimes that Thanatos had committed against their own daughter.

Thanatos was brought to “court” made up of the King and Queen, Maci to tell her side of the story, Hypnos to tell his, and Nyx herself, Elder Primordial Titan Goddess of the Underworld and Thanatos/Hypnos’ mother. As Maci went through describing the past many years - her own activities through the underworld and her abuse at the hands of thanatos Seph was utterly horrified— and Hades though initially somehow SKEPTICAL, as this conference went on there was absolutely no denying the injuries that they could all see, nor the fact that Seph could vouch for what she had personally seen just that afternoon, and since by this point Thanatos had dropped his demeanor of charm there was quickly no denying that this was all the awful truth. Hades settled into anger over the general notion that anyone would betray the royal family in such a way, (less over Maci specifically being harmed, but his daughter was his property - yeesh ugh - no matter how grating he found her to be, so how dare he), bbbbbut his demeanor soon seemed more troubled in a different way the more this talk went on. Finally when it was over and all eyes turned to the King for his verdict, he unexpectedly sent everyone away except Maci, and the two of them had a final confrontation one on one.

Aaaaand here is where Hades solemnly explained to Maci that since Thanatos was a Death God, one of only two in eternity’s existence, there was nothing he could comfortably do to punish him, lest he risk the collapse of the functioning of the Underworld. At this point no one had any idea that removing Thanatos would generate a new death (Neo, 2,000 years in the future)!!

then!! as Maci listened in horror, unable to believe what she was hearing!! Hades turned on her.

demanding to know how could she choose to get involved with this situation, knowing Thanatos was essentially untouchable? What exactly did she expect him to do to fix this now? Hades turned vicious, falling back into their pattern of relationship - had she done this on purpose to make a scene and be the center of attention again, wasn’t that just oh so typical of her? And for that matter how dare she prostitute herself across the Underworld, making a fool out of the King? He spat that he had always assumed she could take care of herself, but now it was clear that she was not capable of it, and again, what did she possibly expect him to do now that she had ruined her own life, and allowed Thanatos to take advantage of her stupidity?

For once, Maci did not respond to Hades’ provocation with matching vitriol. Instead, sensing that his mind was not yet completely made up, with another piece of her shattering inside, she’d tried to plead to Hades' sensibilities as her father and not just the King, begging him not to do this to her. But the longer Hades went on without responding, the more Maci's temper began to boil, rising in sheer desperation even while tears welled in her eyes until finally she snapped at him that it was some move to send everyone away first, lest Persephone find out what a heartless fucking monster he was - and ohhhhh the second the words were out of her mouth, Hades' gaze turned ice cold and Maci immediately knew he WAS petty enough for her to have sealed her own fate. He reconvened the group. Maci started to cry.

to the shock of everyone gathered including Thanatos himself, Hades formally announced that Thanatos would be free to go.

Ignoring Maci sobbing next to him, Hades issued a proclamation to serve as a restraining order, barring Thanatos from interacting with her ever again. This would serve as Thanatos’ singular punishment (one that he barely obeyed, mind you). Then, ignoring the furious disbelief of Persephone on his other side, Hades went on to issue a further proclamation – citing Maci’s clear inability to responsibly handle herself, effective immediately until further notice the Underworld’s population as a whole would be ordered to embargo her, and in fact anyone caught interacting with her would be personally imprisoned. As Maci wailed and screamed and pleaded to deaf ears; as Seph sat disgusted and outraged at her husband but unwilling to override him; as Thanatos bowed to the King, recollecting himself at once into his simpering, smirking demeanor; Hades offered no apologies, and he exited without looking back aaaND BELIEVE IT OR NOT THIS IS STILL NOT THE END SHOULD I KEEP GOING!! OKAY I WILL!

Quite obviously this is something that Maci has never forgiven Hades for, and something that Hades has never regretted not at all, he would do the same thing again if he had to. Hades’ priorities are his kingdom - his wife. The end. Sorry Maci. Necessary sacrifices sometimes must be made, and why risk the kingdom to appease the ungrateful brat he’d spawned against his better judgement, the ungrateful brat who took pleasure in deliberately pushing all of his buttons??

Still - STILL!!! This wasn’t quite the last straw!! it did all get a little worse— at the risk of going on and on and on and on and on for a million years I’ll summarize, or try to. Right afterwards.,,, Due to the way Hades had chosen to handle the situation, he and Seph were now fighting - as oblivious and aloof as she could be, Seph did love Maci and felt that Hades had utterly failed her— so they fought, and when news of this conflict reached Olympus it was then that Zeus took advantage of the space between them to trick and assault Seph, conceiving Melinoe. This did cause the immediate end of Hades and Seph’s argument. Now with this new wretched child that Zeus had left for them, Hades took on sole “childcare” duties for baby Melinoe and pushed Maci to assist him, all during this embargo period he’d forced her into. Fearing that Maci and Melinoe could reunite against him in their shared mistreatment, Hades pivoted to lovebomb an utterly shattered and fully isolated Maci, manipulating her onto “his side” so that they could mistreat baby Melinoe together (yes! This is INSANE!)— until accidentally her evil side took over, creating OrigiMel. When Hades IMMEDIATELY turned on Maci and tried to blame her completely for Melinoe’s rise in power, Maci realized she’d been played for a fool by her father. (With eight years having passed, even while secluded within the palace, Maci had regained the ability to put on a show of bold confidence, and she had fucking had enough, so threatening to expose the fact that Hades was the monster who had made OrigiMel, Maci demanded he lift the embargo that still stood and let her do as she pleased. Annoyed at how all of this had gone on, Hades agreed.)

For the majority of Maci’s life following, Hades’ relationship with her continued to be tense and strained and bitter despite the two of them tersely cohabitating in the big palace but the absolute absolute absolute last straw for Maci took place 2,000 years later when Tory came into the picture.

Now with entering the canon Elysium’verse - YES ALL OF THAT IS PRE-CANON STUFF - once again the Tory thread is a whole nother novel cause their relationship story was an everlasting series of horrors but the final horror preceding their marriage was Hades, finding out at last that his horrible, embarassing, disappointing scourge of a goddess he was forced to call daughter had the audacity to DATE A MORTAL?!?!?! Chthonic gods don’t DO things like that, the Underworld isn’t OLYMPUS. the most taboo thing she could have ever done - How DARE SHE.

Hades tried to kill Tory.

Not like, threatened to have him killed, either - I mean in the sense of, “literally was strangling him to death over a cliff until Maci showed up and physically saved his life, and then Hades SHOVED THEM BOTH OFF THAT CLIFF AND TORY QUITE LITERALLY WOULD HAVE DIED IF SEPH HADNT SHOWN UP ON MACI’S SIDE ONE SINGLE BRIEF TIME, TO CATCH THEM BOTH”

….so…..

i ……… wonder why Maci and Hades don’t get along.

This was the end of their relationship ever again, obviously. Immediately afterwards Maci married Tory and she has not even spoken to her father in literal years, one of the last ever times being when Neo was born, a courtesy introduction and only because Hades was viciously and petulantly spreading rumors that Neo was probably not even Tory’s baby anyway (HELLO?????? WHO DOES THIS WTF?). Hades has not met any of Maci’s other children, to this date. Maci doesn’t miss him and never thinks about him, genuinely— though she’s never REALLY dealt with dissecting her childhood so maybe that’s a crisis for later….. one day.

Seph and Maci still have a relationship, though Seph remains always cheerfully distant and Maci hasn’t ever thought about processing any latent mommy issues to be affected by that not when Hades exists fgkfkff. Seph is starry eyed and 🤪fucking delusional🤪 and her greatest wish is for her husband and her daughter to make amends (HELLOOOOOOO WHAT THE FUCK) . Maci loves her mom she does and Seph loves her and her grandkids! But Maci knows in her heart of hearts that if asked to choose between her and Hades, Seph would choose Hades every time. The literal only time EVER she blatantly took Maci’s side was that one time ^ up there that Tory almost died.

And so….. here we are. 🤗 at the end!

I hope this novel length essay answers your questions! and I’m sorry I have limited info about Elysium!Hades/Seph theyre!! just not a focus for me lmao!! This is the Maci show and she is absolutely a product of her tragically awful upbringing - but those two deities responsible for her awful upbringing are merely that, avenues to explore Maci only.

………..BUT at least Hades didn’t murder his grandchildren so Odin still sweeps. NEXT!

[antiloreolympus]

5 Anti LO Asks

(Note: All of these asks are before episode 206 (Season 2 finale) so some may be dated.) 1. to me if the narrative was just honest hades is a shitty person then id probably love how awful he is, but no instead it's rachel insisting he's actually this perfect romantic lead and everything he does is good and just when thats not true?? like I don't think she means it to be this way, but it (hopefully accidentally) comes across as her excusing/romanticizing a predatory, abusive man who borderline gr//ms persephone into being his "perfect' bride and we're just not supposed to notice.

2. I would think, bc Persephone wanted to use the trial to distract from her crimes to instead be like "look! i'll be the white savior and free the good slaves!" I have thought Hades, in the 10+ years she'd been away would have, maybe, implemented that system? To make the place more equal and see her plan come to fruition? But I guess he would rather make the slaves work even MORE and make everyone else miserable than even do ONE decent thing for once. He's literally so awful it's insane.

3. I don’t know if I’ll be able to articulate this, but Zeus and Minthe are more “enjoyable” antagonists than Persphone and Hades as protagonist.

With Minthe and Zeus, I feel like their characters are more well rounded? Minthe hates Persephone, but stands up to Thetis when she needed to and broke it off with Thanatos when Hades agreed to be more serious committed relationship. But also her goals and motives are clear, and recognizes her flaws even if it doesn’t always push her to be better (but honestly the way hades forced her out, I too would lose my shit) Zeus is a cheating, scum bag husband, paranoid king. But he does love (most) his family, like his new relationship with Artemis I adore because of what Artemis has been through and I love how she’s not even fully comfortable with him either. Zeus isn’t even half wrong to be paranoid about Persephone, he now know he has an air plotting against him (with reason for his mother getting banished) and Zeus knew that Persephone and Apollo are somewhat associated with each other.

Zeus and Minthe have done some terrible things BUT they’ve stayed true to their character and have even had better development. And it too less time too compared to Persephone and Hades.

Persephone-I don’t know where to begin with her character. At first we believe she didn’t have real friends because all the nymphs were lowkey spies of Demeter and Artemis was her real female friend (was she being classist because she’s a goddess?) (she also seems to heavily favor Hermes) but season two she did have 2 friends that were murdered and at the end of season two these two friends didn’t have names. Nor did we learn anything about them personally other than Persephone made them (what were they like? How could we tell them apart from Persephone and each other, they’re both highlighter pink). Persephone is first semester into school and is studying biology I think. After hanging out with Hades for like 3 weeks or something she wants a law major and become a citizen of the underworld (EVEN THO SHE JUST MOVED IN WITH ARTEMIS) she has HUNDREDS OF YEARS TO LIVE JUST FINISH THE FIRST DEGREE YOUVE BEEN IN CLASS FOR 2 weeks. And then Persephone doesn’t fully realize her actions on situations even when characters point them out to her. Her class mates “are you sleeping to the top” Minthe “my ex will spoil you like he did me” Zeus “you can’t get what you want just like my brother use to do with you.” Hades literally shielded Persephone from the law for a long ass time, they shared a bed, Persephone is the first paid intern, she has new clothes, tried take out, bunch of pens, lingerie (gross coming from an old man), all thanks to Hades! And are those characters wrong? NO! Sure the context of each comment wasn’t good, but they’re not wrong.

AND THEN HADES? WHAT IS HE SUPPOSE TO BE, tragic oldest lonely sibling past, beginning of the story misunderstood/bad man/lonely, to mess, to groomer predator, to obsessive “I will burn the world down if I can’t get my barely legal wife sorry I mean gf” What I can’t get behind his character is we’re never shown him enjoying Minthe as a partner, yet he picked her, and apparently has begged her to stay, but we never see him actually enjoying her company which makes it so hard for me to take his part of the relationship seriously. I’m sorry RS if you want to sell me their relationship I gotta see them actually happy where he’s not fantasying about a pink highlighter.  And then his relationship with his family, I don’t like him as a Hera/cheater even tho Leuce is also in Greek mythology (if there was a first love route) how does he feel fine being around Zeus?How do Hera and him not look at each other in disgust and further more Persephone is Hera’s niece who is still hella young by their standards . Hades is also dick as a boss and king. He’s literally giving special treatment to the hot young (unqualified) intern. And treated his (assume older than Persephone) foster son like shit. BUT WERE SUPPOSE TO ROOT FOR THIS CHARACTER???

4. Regardless of what her intentions are (and for the life of me I don't get how Rachel thinks making Hades OWNING SLAVES is a good idea) slavery to even non-Americans is tied to the subjugation and abuse of BIPOC people, especially Africans. I'm not saying she is racist, but can you really blame anyone for thinking so when she writes and glorifies stuff like this? Donating once to a BLM charity when it was popular to do so two years ago doesn't change the fact she's doing this in 20-goddamn-22.

5. I think one of the issues with Lore Olympus is that it started (well as an original anyway) 4 years ago and like. Not much has happened at all??? Like no wonder people get tired and stop reading this comic 

[thaliajoy-blog]

The Persephone modern retelling & why I get it (unprompted mini essay at 8 am)

So there are people who don't like retelling of greek myths, especially the most recent trend of "feminist retellings" that have sprung up these past years with works like Madeline Miller's Circe and Rachel Smythe's Lore Olympus. And there are some very understandable critiques of such works. The Persephone & Hades retellings are quite something in that regard ; it's been criticized for making a story about a girl being kidnapped & a grieving mother looking for her all over the earth into the story of a forbidden romance between complete opposites where the grieving mother becomes a "bitchy" helicopter parent and one of the main obstacles to the romance. So, was that kind of retelling, a sort of re-appropriation of the myth, a messy mistake ? Is it misogynistic ? Is it simply tasteless & bad ?

Well, the way I look at it, Persephone is kidnapped in the original myth, but never really escape the man who took her. She is forever bound to him as his wife, and must go to him each year for a certain amount of time. She goes back to her mother in the end but we know she's still "his". In a sense, Persephone is trapped in the paradoxical role of child (to Demeter, to whom she's "Kore", the maiden, and under whose protection she is originally), and wife (to Hades, a man she didn't choose). It's kind of an incomfortable in-between. So essentially...this myth doesn't have a happy ending, and Persephone is largely without agency, she is tricked at every turn. The people with real agency are Demeter and Hades, and the other gods involved in the quarrel. And in the end, Demeter loses something and Hades gains something. In short, women aren't really winning in this myth. They can only snatch a compromise from the people in power (Zeus & Hades, really), and that compromise is not a compensation at all for the wrongs done to them. There is a real power to the original myth, a solidarity between women, like with Hecate helping Demeter, but all that grief has quite the frustrating ending.

So, I guess that's how Hades turns into a boyfriend/lover rather than being a kidnapper who gets what he wanted in the end. The modern retellings need to spin things away from that pretty tragic ending, and give Persephone a happy ending. They need to refocus Persephone as well & give her more agency in what is happening. And they do that in part by tapping in the subtext of the story - the story of a girl who becomes a woman, who "eats the pomegranate" and divides her attention between her family and her lover. The story of a girl who "leaves the nest" and falls for/dates someone her parents disapprove of, leading to pretty memorable quarrels. It becomes a story of adolescent rebellion, of teenage girlhood. So like, this story is being reappropriated by people who express through it the experience of teenage girls, or of young women. And I get that, and that's why I don't really find this reframing misogynistic, even if Hades gets arguably white washed and Demeter loses her star role in favor of a much less flattering one - the parent. Since Persephone is the center, Demeter is the authority, and through the teenage lens, she's kind of guaranteed to be portrayed as overbearing and essentially an obstacle, if not an antagonist. Persephone can't really "emancipate" herself from Hades, or the myth is broken if she does, so in order to give her some agency she must emancipate herself from the other thing that defines her - girlhood, her role as "Kore", and her mother's protection. This twist on the myth kind of wants to cut the ties with childhood for good, and make Persephone embrace her role as the "Queen of the Underworld" a bit more, which gives her more importance and in some ways, more autonomy (especially since Hades is no longer an antagonist).

[chiimaera]

‘ try me. ’ // @ persephone

MORTALS WERE SIMPLE CREATURES, their survival was fickle and ever under threat since they had reached beyond their means. whispers of the infinity stones in the human realm had been a surprise, along with the merry little band of heroes they seemed to throw at every problem that arose. it was so predictable that it took very little effort to find herself the concern of the season. the daughter of demeter was not the sweet little girl that her mother still believed her to be. the tragic story of persephone had pervaded the human realm, used as a cautionary tale for little girls to mind their mothers and keep away from men who might snatch them away. a tale that was believed so deeply that it had been far too easy to fool their so called protectors.

the air was thick with smoke and rebellion, mortal voices raised in war cries and chanting protest rhymes. the streets of new york were filled with their discontent, shouting and picketing at the steps of their institutions. she couldnt help but bask in the nostalgia — though that time there had been more rope and guillotines. her mother had very disappointed in her 'silly tantrum', riling up the mortals just to watch the chaos. boredom picked away at her sanity along with the ache of longing that never seemed to dull this time of year.

that was under she heard her name in a familiar baritone.

the goddess spun around, her flouncy pastel dress fluttering unmarred by the destruction that surrounded them. the street was vacant save for the man with the metal arm and his spangled flying companion. the moment that her gaze fell on the ever so serious expression on her husbands faces, the barren dry trees began to flourish and bloom around them. the dead flowers on stoops and balconies finally began to stand, home gardens bearing their vegetables and fruit. it was the middle of summer yet the surrounding fields and mountains had been stripped of their color — until now.

persephone grinned prettily, running toward @unseenking until she could fling herself into his arms. the chaos around them seemed to stop, the two mortal heroes watching in disbelief. if she had just been in a battle, no one would have known it. her attention was completely raptured by the man in her arms, eyes bright with elation and adoration that the spring blooms paled in comparison. that was until she realized that her husband was not reciprocating her joy. not that he was one to be jumping into someones arms — or smiling for that matter. her smile fell a bit, forming more of a pout.

" you wont understand— "

" try me "

her pout deepened, glancing back at the heroes who had picked themselves off the ground to stare in confusion. buildings were cracked, cars destroyed, glass and plaster glittered the pavement. she was not allowed to meddle in mortal affairs, her duties were to bring the spring so that the world kept turning. instead she had stripped this side of the country of its fertility, letting everything wilt and die. moods fell into depression, food became scarce. when faced with adversity that could not be controlled, mortals tended to rebel against those in power, grasping for solutions. so she offered herself as one.

worship of the old gods had dwindled with the passage of time, was it so wrong to remind them? yet they both knew that was not the reason for her meddling. not really. persephone looked up at her husband, arms still around his neck on her tip toes. despite being barefoot in the streets of new york, the soles of her feet had no markings, cuts or dirt.

" i missed you, my love, and i was so bored, " the blonde whined. a curse escaped the metal armed man, his anger held back by a hand to the chest stopping him. the goddess smiled with a sweetness that made her dangerous, hiding the cunning queen of the underworld under its bright sincerity. " historically speaking, the gods are supposed to test mortal heroes, are they not? "