#The hobbit analysis

[meteors-lotr]

Bard totally thought Bilbo and Thorin were married

I’m back on my bs

So I remembered yesterday that the dwarves like totally lied straight to Bard’s face when they first met him, saying that they were going across the lake cause they were visiting their relatives in the iron hills. Now who knows how much of that he believed, but ya know, he didn’t ask many questions at least

So sure, cool. Couple of dwarves traveling between the blue mountains and the iron hills, nothing strange about that, they’re dwarves. But amongst the bearded little dudes, there’s a Hobbit. Hobbits, who famously rarely travel anywhere, much less as far as the iron hills. What is he doing so far from home?

But since none of the dwarves said anything akin to “Also this hobbit is traveling with us, just for convenience”, then it must mean that the hobbit is with them. Apart of the group, apart of the family. And unless one of these dwarves have adopted the little dude, which would be highly unlikely, he must be apart of the family in some other way. And what’a the most common way to enter a family? Marriage.

So the Hobbit, Bilbo as he introduces himself as, is probably married to one of the dwarves. But who? Well, he’s seen standing very close to the brooding one with dark hair and short beard. The brooding dwarf in fact rarely leaves his side, always standing on the ready to protect the little one.

And in the town square, when the brooding one (Thorin, rightful king of Erebor) needs someone to vouch for him, who is the first to pipe up but the hobbit, speaking highly of the young king, with adoration and hope in his eyes.

But not only did Bard probably think the two were married, no he also probably thought he was witnessing their divorce first hand on top of the wall of Erebor. Probably one of the weirdest couples he’s ever met, and his town had the unibrow guy hooking up with Stephen Fry.

[shirefantasies]

I keep rewatching the Desolation of Smaug and have to ask… when Gandalf finds Thráin and they talk about Thorin, am I the only one upset that Thráin does not only not mention Dís, but neither does he talk about Frerin, who (how I understand the timeline) he believes is alive as well?

YESSSS! That’s a gripe I have about the movies for sure- they completely erased Thorin’s family. It was convenient for his portrayal and their ease to pretend like it was just him despite that A canonically not being true and B removing the potential to have a good female character not to mention a female dwarf! Even a flashback with Dis would have been so cool and female representation in the hobbit would have been neat! Like…use the canon lady instead of making up a bullshit love triangle pawn lmaos (no hate to Evangeline, she didn’t want that either and did great with what she had to do). I’m a Dis truther. A Dis kisser dare I say. If Dis has no fans I’m dead 😤⚔️

[shirefantasies]

This analysis is amazing and I’m LIVING for it! Never have I read this much up on it other than wondering about some of these things. I agree, I love our boy jirt bUT killing the whole line always felt to me a little…counterintuitive to the whole original goal of the story? Like obviously Erebor is reclaimed and showing war and rule as bittersweet things is great, maybe this is Thorin’s literal life’s work, but part of it was restoring the glory of his family line and gaining their honor. Dís is barely mentioned and Fili and Kili get a very brief throwaway death and that kills me 😫

Mary Sue Dain 💀😂 again, odd choice to go on about how this character is sooooo much better than your og main character, like weird flex??? The Hobbit is an amazing story for sure, but the sudden shift always threw me and I think this explains it. It was like he said don’t look at those guys you’ve been paying attention to *Will Smith meme* look at this one! And the princes just deserved a better death than ‘oh yeah they fell in battle too’ to ensure a character we don’t care about as much gets to reign… odd narrative choice/payoff for readers’ investment imo!

I won’t get too started about the patriarchal dwarves thing 😂 but we all know how much they respect the rare jewels that are dwarf women even if the lines happen to go through male relatives/names! That feels like such a copout but I digress. Thank you OP and just both accounts for having this conversation and doing a bunch of research on things to articulate things way better than a lot of us could have 😁

Just reread The Hobbit 😩 and I stand by my opinion:

📣 Bilbo would have stayed in Erebor if Thorin didn’t die 📣

[nolonger-roses]

No because I can't stop thinking about the exchange when Thorin had dragon sickness and Bilbo was facing him on top of the mountain. Especially when he said "the dwarf I met in Bag-end would never have gone back to his word. Would never have doubted the loyalty of his kin!"

The thing is he is talking about that Thorin, not the one in the top of the Carrock when he finally accepted him or stopped being so reserved or any version of him later. Not the Thorin he was able to reach, know and love. He is refering to the same dwarf that told him he didn't belong, that he ran away in the tunels and that he was lost. He meant the one who was mean to him.

And I think that even then, Bilbo saw the beauty within him. He saw something in him that made him stay and, with time, he was able to touch his soul in a way no one did. And Thorin knew this, that's why he was so heart-broken on that scene.

[spinnenpfote6]

I just re-read some pages of The Fellowship Of The Ring and I don't get why so many people take issue with around-20-y/o Elijah Wood being cast. While Frodo Baggins is indeed canonically about 50 years old, the book specifically mentions how he looks like someone fresh out of his teens because he kept the One Ring for multiple years, which is known to keep their owner young and fresh (at least at the beginning until they rapidly age after getting rid of it) - not to mention that since hobbits age slower than humans, Frodo would only be in maybe his 30s. On one page we are being told that multiple people gossip and wonder about how young he still looks, including Gandalf. So if anything, you could say that Elijah Wood was too skinny or too attractive (though I do think he looks like Frodo is described), but not too young.

And I actually like that he looks young because it not only does it make him look cute and innocent, but we also get the notion of someone who has had a relatively quiet and happy, sheltered life before (aside from the terrible death of his parents) and of someone who is visibly sensitive and innocent and gets taken care of a lot. The BIGGEST reason I like his young looks however, is the parallel to young soldiers who are ripped out of their homes by outer forces, by older men who are the ones who started the wars. Young soldiers whose lives are practically destroyed before they even really begin, just like Frodo's - even if he's already half a century old. He comes back traumatized and sick/disabled having saved the world but having lost so much. Most likely his innocence too.

[fantasyinallforms]

I like to just stare at this 3-second long scene because it speaks volumes. Here it is again slowed down and zoomed in.

Thorin immediately moves to Bilbo. Nori looks back not just for confirmation but also because it looks like Thoirn might step in front of Bilbo but he doesn't. Bilbo and Thorin lock eyes you can see it in how Bilbo's eyes are glued to Thorin's face. Look at Nori very carefully because he does a little double-take at the look Thorin is giving Bilbo. Instead, Thorin assumes a defensive position behind Bilbo after nodding for him to continue.

Now take the above scene. Bilbo looks bewildered and completely out of his element. Why wouldn't he? He's never seen a town built for men. They are about to head into a more open area. Thorin hates areas like this look at the disdain on his face. He moves around Bilbo bracketing him into the middle of the company so he is in the safest possible spot.

[maeofthenoldor]

As Tolkien often observed; “names often generate a story” and always nearly contributed or suggested something of the nature or personality of the character, thing or place that has been named. Yet the most intriguing name he has created in my opinion, is the main protagonist of “The Hobbit” Bilbo Baggins who is the hero of the classic tale, and despite being seen as such, his name holds interesting and contradicting connotations. For Baggins suggests harmless, humble and well- contented characters (though with criminal undertones!) Yet the name Bilbo suggests an individual who is sharp, intelligent and even dangerous….

The family name of Bilbo is  “Baggins” which derives from a double source-the English Somerset surname Bagg, which means “moneybag” or “wealthy.” The term “Baggins" itself means “afternoon tea or snack between meals” and at first is appropriate in describing our well off  hobbit. Initially he is presented as a mildly comic, home-loving, upper middle class “gentle hobbit” who seems harmless and composed enough, if given to some annoyance. He is mostly concerned with his mothers dishes, doilies, domestic comforts and food. However, once recruited by Thorin and his Company, we see the respectable gentle hobbit reveal his true colours- he is an excellent and highly skilled burglar.

Tolkien has maintained that his tales are often inspired by names and words from the real world, and indeed, in the jargon of the nineteenth-and early twentieth century criminal underworld there were a cluster of names around the term “bag” and forms of theft. “To bag” means to capture, to acquire, or to steal. “A baggage man” is an outlaw who carries off the loot and a “bagman” is the man who collects and distributes gold on the behalf of others by dishonest means or purposes.

His surname not only characterises himself, but also plots out the narrative for the story. For in the hobbit we discover Baggins is hired by Dwarves to bag the Arkenstone. He then becomes the baggage man who carries off the loot. When he realises Thorin has fallen under the gold sickness, he becomes the bagman and is dishonest to the newly crowned king, distributing the Arkenstone to Thrandruil and Bard. After the Battle Of The Five Armies he hands out the treasure to those who are rightfully in need of it, and thus ends him being the bagman.

Another aspect of Bilbo Baggins character can be revealed by the analysis of his first name. The word “Bilbo” entered the English language in the late sixteenth century as a name for a short and deadly piercing sword of the kind once made in the Spanish port city of Bilbao where the name derives from. This is an excellent description of Bilbo's elvish sword (often called a letter opener) named “Sting.” Found in the troll hoard, Bilbo's “bilbo” can pierce through any animal hide that would break any other sword. In The Hobbit however, it is the hero's sharp wit rather than his sword that gives Bilbo his sharpness. Bilbo's well-honed wits allow him to survive the journey and to trick monsters, a dragon  and to get himself out of bad situations. 

When we put these two names together as Bilbo Baggins, we fully understand the two aspects of his character, showing someone who is dangerously witty, but ultimately good and humble to a fault. If we want to dig deeper into how these names also affected the events of the Lord Of The Rings, one has to look no further than Frodo Baggins.

 Along with the Baggins family name, further “baggage” is passed on to Bilbo's nephew and heir, Frodo Baggins who in the context of the one ring is a link to another underworld occupation; the bagger or the bag thief. This bagger or bag thief has nothing to do with baggage, but is derived from the French word bauge, meaning “ring.” A bagger then, is a thief who specialises in stealing rings by seizing a victim's hand and stripping off its rings. It had common usage in Britain's criminal underworld between 1890 to 1940. The Baggins name holds the idea and plot for both The Hobbit and Lord Of The Rings. For Bilbo's skill as a burglar, one might say that in the perspective of outsiders, the Baggins baggers of Bag End, Bilbo and Frodo, are naturally born ring thieves.

[fizzyxcustard]

How would Thorin comfort his lover? Both when it’s related to physical pain/injury and emotional distress

Please and thank you! 🩵🩵

Thorin, in my mind, shows his love through touch. Comforting his lover would mean touching her gently, whether her hand, arm, face, or maybe something a little more intimate, like a leg, when no one is looking.

Obviously physical injury may be a little more difficult, but Thorin would tend to her wounds himself, not wanting touch from anyone else. I imagine him being a little jealous in that respect. Not overly, but something he can’t help himself feel.

Apart from touch, he is a gift giver. He’d shower her with flowers, trinkets and even food. Then he’d encourage her to rest, not take on extra duties, and remain beside her. ♥️

Thank you for asking, love! Thoroughly enjoyed answering this.

[thorinsghivashel]

Thorin Oakenshield can be considered a tragic character.

Analyzing Thorin Oakenshield as a tragic character through the lens of Greek tragedy provides a deeper understanding of his narrative arc and character development. Here’s a detailed analysis based on the principles of Greek tragedy:

Characteristics of Greek Tragedy

Noble Stature:

Greek tragedies typically feature protagonists of noble birth or high status.

Thorin's Noble Stature: Thorin is the rightful heir to the throne of Erebor, which establishes his noble lineage and royal status.

Hamartia (Tragic Flaw):

A tragic hero possesses a flaw or makes a mistake that leads to their downfall.

Thorin's Hamartia: Thorin's tragic flaw is his overwhelming greed and obsession with reclaiming the treasure of Erebor, particularly the Arkenstone. This greed blinds him to reason and leads to irrational decisions and conflicts.

Hubris (Excessive Pride):

Many Greek tragic heroes exhibit hubris, an excessive pride that often leads to their downfall.

Thorin's Hubris: Thorin's pride in his lineage and destiny to reclaim Erebor contributes to his downfall. His refusal to share the treasure and his stubbornness in negotiations with other parties reflect this hubris.

Peripeteia (Reversal of Fortune):

The hero's fortunes change dramatically, usually from good to bad.

Thorin's Peripeteia: Thorin's initial success in reclaiming Erebor turns sour as his greed alienates allies, causes internal strife, and leads to the siege of the Lonely Mountain. His fall from a respected leader to a paranoid and isolated figure marks this reversal.

Anagnorisis (Recognition):

The hero realizes their flaw or the true nature of their situation, often too late to avoid the consequences.

Thorin's Anagnorisis: Thorin experiences a moment of clarity on his deathbed, recognizing the destructive power of his greed and seeking reconciliation with Bilbo and others he wronged.

Catharsis:

The audience experiences a purging of emotions, particularly pity and fear, through the hero’s journey.

Catharsis in Thorin's Story: Thorin's tragic arc elicits pity for his internal struggle and ultimate downfall, and fear of the destructive nature of unchecked greed and pride. His redemption at the end provides a bittersweet closure.

[usespeciesanalysisontomrawling]

USE SPECIES ANALYSIS ON TOM RAWLING - THE ZERG

GOLLUM FROM THE HOBBIT MOVIES BASED UPON BOOKS BY J.R.R. TOLKIEN

[lauramkaye]

you know when you think about it

Hobbit/LOTR is basically Tolkien's Fantasy AU Fix-it for WWI.

Sometimes I think of him serving in the trenches and foxholes of the Somme and then later inventing a different kind of shelter under the earth: one that is warm and bright and full of comfort, with a full larder and a cheery fire and a little green door.

One of the things that I very much love about humans is the way that we can take the things that hurt us and look for ways to transform them into something that can bolster us, even if they are only ideas. Even if they are only stories.

In a hole in the ground there lived a hobbit.

[electricabsolution]

im so obsessed with how similar Thorin and Boromir are despite being in two completely different stories. their whole arcs are SO similar, from beginning to end. especially the end.

the whole prince of a failing kingdom vibe … makes them both pretty grim even if they don’t always act that way. Boromir isnt going to be king exactly, but the fact that his father is (just) the steward puts him in the same sort of listless position that Thorin is in to me. there’s uncertainty. (and, in that, loss of hope.)

Thorin gets obsessed with the arkenstone, similar to how Boromir becomes swayed by the ring. they’re the two main characters who become “““bad guys”””.

however. ignoring all of that, it’s the nature of their death scenes thats really striking, in the sense that they’re both purposefully short. empty.

im talking about the book versions here, by the way. they do die heroically in battle! and we root for them! but Tolkien does not let us watch at all.

in the Hobbit, the narrative follows Bilbo during the battle, where he meets an already dying Thorin. same in TTT, it follows Aragorn to find Boromir already riddled with arrows. we aren’t privy to the fights themselves.

the movies show the epic battles, of course they do! its gripping and emotional. but Tolkien is writing about war, from personal experience. he’s telling the readers that we shouldn’t want to read about something that horrific. so he doesn’t allow it to be entertainment.

how many enemies they killed in battle, or what sick fighting moves they made were not deemed important enough for Tolkien to write about. what was important, though, were the connections they made with other people before they died. that although their burdens were too much, and they made mistakes along the way, they still have friends there to remind them that there is still hope for a better future. even if it’s difficult to see.

[theriu]

Interpreting Bilbo’s Speech

As an editor whose job requires the ability to untangle confusing sentences, I maintain that Bilbo’s speech at his 111th birthday party was actually genuine and complimentary. Let’s break this down.

“Alas, eleventy-one years is far too short a time to live among such excellent and admirable hobbits. I don't know half of you half as well as I should like, and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve." 

“I don’t know half of you as well as I should like” can be translated as “Half of you are people I don’t know as well as I wish I did. I wish I knew you at least half again as much as I do.” Literally, “I wish I’d gotten to know you better.”

“I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.” He may not have a deep affection for this less-than-50% of the party-goers, but he acknowledges that they deserve twice as much respect and appreciation as what he gave them during their acquaintance. Literally, “I know there’s more to be appreciated about you than I knew of or that I am capable of appreciating.”

Note: Since he clearly knows THIS half well enough to know they deserve more of his respect and affection than what he gave them, we are probably safe to presume that they are the opposite half from the first group, who he wishes he had gotten to know better. (Although there is probably some crossover). (This part gets into Math a little bit, which is NOT my specialty as an editor.)

So, if we take his first sentence literally—“Alas, eleventy-one years is far too short a time to live among such excellent and admirable hobbits”—then the whole statement is actually quite genuine. For all his grumbling and muttering about his various neighbors’ and relations’ failings or annoyances, Bilbo really does respect and admire many of them, and he is wise enough to know that there’s more to appreciate in the people he doesn’t care for or didn’t know well than he has managed to discover in his short lifetime with them.

But of course this is Bilbo, so he wrapped it up in a mind-bending riddle and left everyone wondering if they’d been insulted before he abruptly vanished, leaving the party in chaos.

In conclusion: Bilbo’s way of handling the awkwardness of being sincere to a large group of people involves tying his compliments into a knot and then running away forever while they’re distracted untangling it.

I’m not saying this is the healthiest way of dealing with the mortifying ordeal of being known, but it does feel very Bilbo.

[meadowsofmay]

so, i am one film in of my the hobbit re-watch and it's interesting how they portrayed each dwarf visually. there's quite an amount of fighting which showcases us the way they act: who's the fighter and who's the carer, who's the leader and who's the follower, who's the mind and who's the brutal force. but — their appearance does tell a huge part of the untold story about who they are and what are their roles in the company.

while re-watching 'an unexpected journey' i had an opportunity to pay closer attention to fili and kili:

and if i still didn't know a single thing about them aside basics and was asked «who's going to be the next king?», i'd say fili without hesitation, based only on the visual.

fili is put together. he might even seem to be somewhat arrogant with his facial expressions. and visual implications of him being the mature one are in his braids, his still growing beard but already braided mustache.

in comparison to kili — fili has a little bit of the weight that the age brings on him.

one of the reasons why we might sympathise alot with kili is because kili feels young. his appearance screams that he is the youngest: long unbraided/barely braided hair and those bangs, strands of hair over his face in a way to make it look rounder and cuter. we see kili act impulsively, him being all over the place with attachement and trust, him being childishly loud and stupidly brave. and his appearance really makes sense of that.

the relationships between durin's are also quite interesting to look at:

the thing with fili is not just him being the oldest of the brothers, for also because he is prepared/taught to be mature one. we hear it quickly in action during the departure from laketown but richard also said in the appendices that thorin prepares fili to be the next to the throne. and i think, he used the word «groomed» which might mean that they're at the beginning of the process that is not exactly wanted by one of the sides. hence, why i am using «prepared/taught to» — fili is still young and dumb at times but he is ahead of kili on the ride of growing up. because he has to. he is, again, more put together but he has alot of weaponry that he carries on him in order to be prepared for any sort of fight. he learns skills and hence the reason he still has huge assignment of blades to chose from.

fili is also less confrontational with thorin. kill is really open and honest about his feelings towards thorin's actions, for example in the scenes where thorin is unfair to bilbo. seems like kili really did get attached to the hobbit and was not shy to be judgemental.

also desperate for he is still young and doesn't really understand the meaning of calculated decisions and compromises.

fili usually keeps to the side, be it because he observes, has less confrontational character or just knows not to interfere when thorin gets moody. when kili jokes on bilbo — fili just plays along. when thorin starts to berate them it's kili who's ashamed but fili is just there. he is so done with thorin, it seems, he doesn't have it in him to react.

observing kili's behavior we can say that kili looks up to thorin in a more sincere, childish way. thorin is the hero of his childhood dreams, for he is the dwarf who took up on the role of his father while juggling all of his other duties. kili wants to impress thorin, wants to be good for him too, it shows in a way he jumps into fights hot-headed. and he is often ashamed when he disappoints him.

fili, on the other hand, just does what thorin says because he knows thorin will want of him exactly that. he learned a lot from and of thorin, he knows how to operate under his command. in a way, he might start to see thorin more as a leader rather than a father figure.

and it might be for another post but we see fili get openly confrontational only in 'the desolation of smaug' and only because kili is in danger. no matter how important it is for thorin to raise a king out of him, fili is still going to put his brother first.

he protests:

first time is when thorin rushes everyone on the river bank while kili needs healer's attention because of his leg.

second time — when thorin wants fili to go with them to erebor and fili choses to stay in laketown with kili who's gotten worse. thorin needs fili there with them because he is the next in line. fili's priorities lie with his brother. and that's probably the most loud conflict fili had with thorin in the whole trilogy. that was the conflict of interests.

the most loud conflict kili had with thorin, though, is in 'the battle of the five armies' when he finally had enough of thorin hiding behind a wall while the rest are dying for them. he almost lost respect for thorin and that was his last attempt to bring him to his senses because this thorin was not his childhood hero, was not the person he looks up to and the matter at hand wasn't just his foul character. it was the conflict of morals.

and i find that beautiful.

[autailome]

The answer to Gollum's time riddle is the Ring, from Exploring J.R.R. Tolkien's The Hobbit by Corey Olsen

[dungeons-and-dictions]

It’s Analysis Friday, Middle Earth Music Edition!

If you’re up-to-date on adaptions of Tolkien’s work, there is not an adaptation that goes without presenting a song or 10. The scholar, writer, and linguist loved music! But he didn’t include songs for the sake of it. Tolkien loved songs so much that he made music carry themes, story, and his world itself.

At the start of the Silmarillion, it reads like the Bible’s creation account. Eru Iluvatar sang the Ainur(gods and spirits), Eä(universe), and Arda (earth) into existence. Likewise, Melkor disrupts the song with his own strange one, corrupting other Ainur and introducing darkness to the world.

Words carry great power in Arda, and songs are often powerful prayers. Many of Sauron’s schemes hinge on manipulating others’ desires and insecurities. Finrod defeated Sauron through song. And Disa’s failed attempt to get the mountains to bring back the sunlight was very poignant to me last week because of the relevance song has in Middle Earth.

Tolkien’s Songs on the Screen

Hobbit (Rankin-Bass) - 7

Lord of the Rings (Bakshi) - 1

Return of the King (Rankin-Bass) - 3

Lord of the Rings (Jackson) - 6, 2, 2

Hobbit (Jackson) - 2, 0, 0

Rings of Power (up to S2E4) - 5?

For more Tolkien music:

BBC Radio Dramatization of LotR

LotR Musical (apparently quite bad (jk, it’s officially on my to-watch list now thanks to the comments!) mixes Tolkien’s songs with original ones)

Andy Serkis’ LotR audiobook readings

Clamavi de Profundis - family music group that adapts fantasy songs, lots of Tolkien!

For a universe that doesn’t act as a musical, there’s rich lore hidden inside its music!