#Théoden

[fantasyinallforms]

Tonight, we remember one who lent his enormous talent to telling the story we have all come to love. Hail, the victorious dead!

May the Simbelmynë cover his tomb as it did the tomb of the one he so accurately portrayed.

Bernard Hill Dec 17, 1944 - May 5, 2024

[autistook]

Rest in Peace, Bernard Hill 🤍🕊

[dindjarism]

REST IN PEACE, BERNARD HILL (1944–2024) THE LORD OF THE RINGS: THE RETURN OF THE KING (2003)

[from-the-coffee-shop-in-edoras]

Bernard Hill said once that he came up with the line, “No parent should have to bury their child.” And, no, it’s not canonical, but it’s absolutely what the story needed. It’s what the character needed. Hell, it’s what we needed. It’s a better and more compelling and more relatable and more moving and more empathetic film for having that emotion expressed. It was such a simple idea, but such an important one. And we needed him to get it. May the simbelmynë always bloom on your place of rest, Mr. Hill.

[dagordagorath]

For he was a gentle heart and a great king and kept his oaths; and he rose out of the shadows to a last fair morning.

[verecunda]

‘I say, Théoden King: shall we have peace and friendship, you and I? It is ours to command.’ ‘We will have peace,’ said Théoden at last thickly and with an effort. Several of the Riders cried out gladly. Théoden held up his hand. ‘Yes, we will have peace,’ he said, now in a clear voice, ‘we will have peace, when you and all your works have perished – and the works of your dark master to whom you would deliver us. You are a liar, Saruman, and a corrupter of men’s hearts. You hold out your hand to me, and I perceive only a finger of the claw of Mordor. Cruel and cold! Even if your war on me was just – as it was not, for were you ten times as wise you would have no right to rule me and mine for your own profit as you desired – even so, what will you say of your torches in Westfold and the children that lie dead there? And they hewed Háma’s body before the gates of the Hornburg, after he was dead. When you hang from a gibbet at your window for the sport of your own crows, I will have peace with you and Orthanc. So much for the House of Eorl. A lesser son of great sires am I, but I do not need to lick your fingers. Turn elsewhither. But I fear your voice has lost its charm.’

[lukedanger]

I have some thoughts on Héra's "death" line at the climax of War of the Rohirrim and how it relates to Rohan's story during the War of the Ring.

Spoilers below for the movie!

When Héra tells Wulf that she was promised to death on the siege tower, I think that she was genuinely expecting to die there. Even if the plan went perfectly, she would be isolated from the Hornburg (as the siege tower's gangplank burned down) surrounded by an enemy army. Even if Fréaláf showed up, which to her is still a big if on timing if nothing else, that is not a situation one can reasonably expect to survive.

Yet, it's the only hope her people have to escape. She might die, but the rest would live if she could keep enough attention on her. Is this not what Théoden would do centuries later, first on the ramp of the Hornburg drawing the attention of the Uruk-Hai? Then again at Pelennor Fields, one probably last charge to try and win survival for their people. Failing that, at least choosing to die on their own terms instead of waiting for their turn to fall.

Is that not why Théoden's riders cheered "death!" at the enemy as they charged, throwing back the fear Mordor sought to spread back at its hosts? That they had accepted it and were ready to meet it? Is that not what the ideal of a warrior is so often touted as, fighting because they love what stands behind their aegis?

Héra may not have been fighting the same kind of existential war that Théoden was, but the same kind of courage was needed. Even if it all went well, I doubt she had any expectations of surviving that night. She nearly didn't, even with Fréaláf arriving and utterly terrorizing the Dunlending host into such a panicked rout. Yet, it was the way she could save those under her charge.

The moment she rode out onto the tower's gangplank, Héra truly promised herself to death.

[nathsketch]

Extremely sad news today with the passing of our beloved Bernard Hill.

“Arise!! Arise, Riders of Théoden!”

“The horn of Helm Hammerhand shall sound in the deep one last time.”

He will go to his fathers. And even in their mighty company he shall not now be ashamed. 🗡️🐴👑

Forth, Eorlingas!!

[bretwalda-lamnguin]

I know it’s a woobification thing but it’s so weird seeing posts about how Faramir is this poor victim of abuse who Éowyn has to look after and protect. 

She’s had it so much worse than he has! She would have killed to have Faramir’s life. Faramir is taken seriously and accorded his due honour by his father. He is given positions of command and authority and always taken seriously. At all times he maintains his agency.

His relationship with Denethor is very toxic and unhealthy, but Denethor never forgets him and takes him seriously enough to argue with him rather than dismissing or ignoring him. Faramir has never had to live under constant threat of violence as a result of abuse or neglect from his immediate family. 

The same cannot be said for Éowyn. By the time we meet her she is chronically depressed and approaching suicidal. She has lived for years under the threat of sexual violence at the hands of Grima and has been consistently failed by the men in her family. 

She has had to put aside her own life for years to care for Théoden, an increasingly thankless and demeaning task, and when he no longer needs her he almost forgets she exists until he’s dying. Háma has to remind Théoden of her existence at one point. 

This isn’t a call to woobify Éowyn-she wouldn’t want your pity! But we should acknowledge just how horrible her life has been up to that point, and people like Théoden let that happen.

[anghraine]

Another Tolkien rant before I (finally!!) go back to BG3:

By and large, heredity and ethnicity in Tolkien cannot be understood through blood quantum logic. I don't think this is even seriously debatable, really—it does not work.

Yes, Imrahil of Dol Amroth is many generations removed from his nearest Elvish ancestor. Yes, he's still visibly part-Silvan to someone like Legolas, and is Silvan-style pretty to everyone else, and his sister was mystically susceptible to Mordor's miasma and died of sea-longing.

Yes, Théoden has as much Númenórean ancestry as Eldacar, a literal Númenórean King of Gondor, and has the same Elvish ancestor as Imrahil. No, Théoden is not a Dúnadan and does not inherit Silvan features. Tolkien specifically contrasted the visible Silvan Elvish heritage of Imrahil and his nephews Boromir and Faramir with Théoden and Éomer's lack of them, though in some versions, Éomer inherited remarkable height from his Númenórean ancestry (but not specifically Elvish qualities like beardlessness).

The only known member of the House of Eorl to markedly inherit the distinctive Elvish appearance of the House of Dol Amroth is Elfwinë, son of Imrahil's daughter Lothíriel as well as of Éomer, and Elfwinë's appearance is attributed firmly to Lothíriel-Imrahil rather than Théodwyn-Morwen.

Aragorn and Denethor are descendants of Elendil removed by dozens of generations, and Elendil himself was many generations removed from Elros. Aragorn and Denethor's common heritage and special status results in a strong resemblance and kinship between these incredibly distant cousins, including innate beardlessness and various powers inherited from Lúthien, and a connection to the Maiar presumably derived from Lúthien's mother Melian (great-great-grandmother of their very distant ancestor Elros).

Galadriel has one Noldo grandparent (half as much Noldorin heritage as Théoden has Númenórean). She has ties to her Telerin and Vanyarin kin and inherits some of their traits (most notably her silvery-gold hair), but she is very fundamentally a Noldo.

Túrin Turambar is a member—and indeed, heir—of the House of Hador via patrilineality. However, he's strongly coded as Bëorian in every other way because of his powerful resemblance to his very Bëorian mother, while his sister Niënor is the reverse, identified strongly with Hadorian women and linked to their father, whom she never met.

Elrond and Elros have more Elvish heritage than anything else, but are defined as half-Elves regardless of choosing mortality or immortality. In The Nature of Middle-earth, Tolkien casually drops the bombshell that Elros's children with his presumably mortal partner also received a choice of mortality vs immortality (and then in true Tolkien style, breezed onto other, less interesting points). Elrond and his sons with fully Elvish Celebrían are referred to as Númenóreans as well as Elves, with Elladan and Elrohir scrupulously excluded from being classed as Elves on multiple occasions. Their sister Arwen, meanwhile, is a half-Elf regardless of how much literal mortal heritage she has but also is identified with the Eldar in a way they never are.

There's a letter that Tolkien received in which a fan asks how Aragorn, a descendant of Fíriel of Gondor, could be considered of pure Númenórean ancestry when Fíriel was a descendant of Eldacar, the "impure" king whose maternal heritage kicked off the Kinstrife. Tolkien's response is essentially a polite eyeroll (and understandably for sure), but it's not like ancestry that remote (or far more so) doesn't regularly linger.

The point, I guess, is that there's no hard and fast rule here that determines "real" ethnicity in Middle-earth or who inherits what narrative identification. It's clearly not dependent on purebloodedness (gross rhetoric anyway, but also can't be reconciled with ... like, anything we see). It's not based on upbringing or culture alone. Túrin and Niënor, for instance, are powerfully identified with the Edain narratively despite their upbringings. Their double cousin Tuor, however, is a more ambiguous figure in terms of the Elves, whom he loves and lives among and possibly even joins in immortality—yet Tuor's half-Elf son Eärendil, whose cultural background is overwhelmingly Elvish, is naturally aligned with Men and only chooses immortality for his wife's sake.

Elladan and Elrohir, as mentioned above, are sons of an Elf, Celebrían, and of Elrond, a half-Elf who chose immortality and established a largely Elvish community at Rivendell. But the twins have a centuries-long affinity with their mortal Dúnadan kin and delay choosing a kindred to be counted among long after Arwen's choice.

Patrilineal heritages are more often than not given priority, which has nothing to do with how much of X blood someone has, only which side it comes from. Queen Morwen's children and descendants are emphatically Rohirrim who don't ping Legolas's Elvishness radar (though Elfwinë might, later on; we're not told). King Eldacar is firmly treated as a Dúnadan with no shortening of lifespan or signs of Northern heritage. Finwë's children and grandchildren are definitionally Noldor.

But this is by no means absolutely the case. The Elvishness of the line of Dol Amroth is not only inherited from Mithrellas, a woman, but passes to some extent to Boromir and Faramir through their mother Finduilas. Denethor and Aragorn's descent from Elros primarily comes through Silmariën, a woman (and also through Rían daughter of Barahir and Morwen daughter of Belecthor for Denethor, and Fíriel daughter of Ondoher for Aragorn). And of course, Elros's part-Maia heritage that lingers among his descendants for thousands of years derives from women, Lúthien and Melian.

So there's not some straightforward system or rule that will tell you when a near or remote ancestor "matters" when it comes to determining a character's identity, either to the character or to how they're handled by the narrative. Sometimes a single grandparent, or great-grandparent, or more distant ancestor, is fundamental to how a character is treated by the story and understands themself. Sometimes a character is so completely identified with one parent that the entire other half of their heritage is negligible to how they're framed by the story and see themself. It depends!

[hail-theoden-king]

[cilil]

Headcanon: Oromë personally welcomed Théoden when he came to Mandos and bid him farewell when he went beyond the world. He was so proud of him

[autistook]

Bernard Hill

1944 - 2024

[from-the-coffee-shop-in-edoras]

I’m already firmly on record that I like the way Théodred’s death is handled in the movies much better than the books. Getting to see Théoden not only acknowledge his son’s death but actually grieve him is SO necessary, both to recognizing Théodred’s importance to the narrative and to rounding out Théoden’s emotions, making clear a lot of his motives in all that follows. We all talk a lot about the scene of Théoden at the barrows and the “no parent should have to bury their child” line, but I was looking at a little clip from Helm’s Deep today and I think it should also go on the list of ways that we see Théoden caring about Théodred in the movies.

It’s in the infamous “call for aid” argument with Aragorn, where Théoden gives us, “Where was Gondor when the Westfold fell? Where was Gondor when our enemies closed in around us?” But that’s not all. He starts a third question — “Where was Gon—” — and abruptly cuts himself off before finishing it. And those unspoken words must have been “Where was Gondor when my son was taken from me?” Except he can’t bring himself to say those words out loud, because they come with painful truths. That he, too, failed Théodred. That he has no better answer to the question, “Where was I when my son was killed?” That no matter what happens now, he can never get Théodred back.

Gondor is an easy target for that anger and distress, but a good chunk of it is anger and distress at himself. He can’t speak those words, with all that they mean, but he’s absolutely thinking them. Because the man loved his son.

[dagordagorath]

15 March: The Battle of the Pelennor Fields

[thranduilofsmirkwood]

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