#Prophecies in Tolkien

[eri-pl]

Assuming the Valar were real and legit

..I can't write polls properly: "Manwe and Varda" means "Manwe or Varda", sorry.

[dfwbwfbbwfbwf]

@eri-pl I'm sure you'll have thoughts on this.

[radicalposture]

TOM BOMBADIL 2: CIVIL WAR

[tarantula-hawk-wasp]

My obsession with Glorfindel prophesying the demise of the witch king of angmar prevails

[middle-earth-mythopoeia]

Comparing the Doom of Mandos and Morgoth’s curse

There are remarkable similarities between the Doom of Mandos and Morgoth’s curse against Húrin.

“But upon all whom you love my thought shall weigh as a cloud of Doom, and it shall bring them down into darkness and despair. Wherever they go, evil shall arise. Whenever they speak, their words shall bring ill counsel. Whatsoever they do shall turn against them. They shall die without hope, cursing both life and death.” — Morgoth’s curse

“On the House of Fëanor the wrath of the Valar lieth from the West unto the uttermost East, and upon all that will follow them it shall be laid also. Their Oath shall drive them, and yet betray them, and ever snatch away the very treasures that they have sworn to pursue. To evil end shall all things turn that they begin well… For blood ye shall render blood, and beyond Aman ye shall dwell in Death’s shadow. For though Eru appointed to you to die not in Eä, and no sickness may assail you, yet slain ye may be, and slain ye shall be: by weapon and by torment and by grief…” — The Doom of Mandos

Did Mandos lay a curse on the Noldor? Reading these quotes side by side, the answer might appear to be yes.

But despite the line “upon all that will follow them it shall be laid also”, not all the Noldor who left Valinor met the same fates: many of them died tragic deaths, but not all (Idril and Galadriel, for instance), whereas the work of Morgoth’s curse on Húrin’s family is clear.

And the words of the Doom of Mandos, in large part, describe what Fëanor and his sons have already inflicted on themselves by swearing the Oath (“Their Oath shall drive them, and yet betray them”), and the natural consequence of going to Beleriand, where the Noldor intend to make war (“slain ye may be, and slain ye shall be”).

There is also the conditional nature of the Doom of Mandos: the Noldor are told that if they do not stay and repent, then this doom will be laid on them. Morgoth, needless to say, doesn’t give Húrin a choice.

Another difference is the Doom of Mandos was issued in response to the Kinslaying (“Ye have spilled the blood of your kindred unrighteously and have stained the land of Aman”), whereas Morgoth’s curse was issued in response to Húrin’s heroic resistance against him.

For all of these reasons I think the Doom of Mandos is more accurately called a prophecy, not a curse, but nevertheless it was called both of these things: the Curse of Mandos and the Prophecy of the North.

I don’t believe that Mandos cursed the Noldor—but what if some of them believed he did? What if there were debates among the Noldor as to which of these things it was: prophecy or curse? I can see some of them believing it was a curse, especially the Fëanorians, who already think the Valar are tyrants.

Fëanor also believed that the Valar wanted to let Men to supplant the Elves in Middle-earth, and in light of this, he probably saw the Doom of Mandos as further proof: “And those that endure in Middle-earth and come not to Mandos shall grow weary of the world as with a great burden, and shall wane, and become as shadows of regret before the younger race that cometh after.”

Perhaps it was even Fëanor who named it the Curse of Mandos.

But what can account for the similarities between the words of Morgoth’s curse and the Doom of Mandos? And where did the words of the curse come from? The Doom of Mandos was heard by many, but Morgoth’s curse was heard only by Húrin. Did he recount it to the Elves? Or did Elvish historians write the words that they believe Morgoth would have said, knowingly or unknowingly making his curse similar to the Doom of Mandos? Or did Morgoth himself know the words of the Doom of Mandos, and knowingly or unknowingly mirror it? All are intriguing possibilities.

There is another interesting connection between the Doom of Mandos and Morgoth’s curse: Gondolin. The Book of Lost Tales gives an early version of the Doom of Mandos ending with the words “Great is the fall of Gondolin.” Gondolin was also the reason Morgoth cursed Húrin: because he would not reveal its location. But when Húrin was freed, he went to the mountains surrounding Gondolin and called out to Turgon, and “Morgoth smiled, and knew now clearly in what region Turgon dwelt” (The War of the Jewels). So the Doom of Mandos prophesied that Gondolin would fall, and Morgoth’s curse helped bring about its fall.

[hauntedvulcan]

I've seen quite a few posts about which fictional characters people associate with The Prophecy so I raise to you Turin Turambar. I think it would fit him

He is quite literally cursed. Everyone he loves dies

[woe-begotten-spirit]

bad and naughty elves get put in The Halls of Mandos to atone for their crimes

[whats-in-a-sentence]

Over the land there lies a long shadow,

westward reaching wings of darkness.

The Tower trembles; to the tombs of kings

doom approaches. The Dead awaken;

for the hour is come for the oathbreakers:

at the Stone of Erech they shall stand again

and hear there a horn in the hills ringing.

Whose horn shall it be? Who shall call them

from the grey twilight, the forgotten people?

The heir of him to whom the oath they swore.

From the North shall he come, need shall drive him:

he shall pass the Door to the Paths of the Dead.

"The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King" - J.R.R. Tolkien

[tenth-sentence]

'Yet the shadow of Mandos lies on you also,' said Melian.

"The Silmarillion" - J.R.R. Tolkien

[tlaquetzqui]

You know…Dwarves can in hand take or away cast the Silmarils, without activating the oath? It says Elda or Aftercomer, doesn’t say anything about Adopted.

[eri-pl]

So, the Doom of the Noldor

Isn't very strict, to put it politely.

Tears unnumbered ye shall shed; and the Valar will fence Valinor against you, and shut you out, so that not even the echo of your lamentation shall pass over the mountains.

...except that one time when Manwe sends an eagle to Fingon to save Maedhros (both kinslayers) precisely because of Fingon's lamentations prayer...

On the House of Fëanor the wrath of the Valar lieth from the West unto the uttermost East, and upon all that will follow them it shall be laid also. Their Oath shall drive them, and yet betray them, and ever snatch away the very treasures that they have sworn to pursue.

...except that one time M&M actually get the Silmarils. Yes, it's kind of ambiguous with this wording, because they do lose them eventually. But still, this 'prophecy' seems a little misleading here.

To evil end shall all things turn that they begin well; and by treason of kin unto kin, and the fear of treason, shall this come to pass.

...except Galadriel's woodland realm, which, sure, fades but doesn't end up evil. Also, Celebrimbor technically wasn't betrayed by his kin, and definitely in was not fear of treason what killed him...

The rest is ok, but even three mistakes— Even one mistake would prove that it wasn't Namo speaking those words. Namo makes no mistakes, doesn't lie, doesn't joke and doesn't use hyperboles. (Yes, that's headcanon.)

Namo is too omniscient to not be literal.

Many of you will say I'm being picky, and the eagle doesn't count or the words meant something else, and Galadriel wasn't with the Noldor but went separately (per later writings) or something.

Anyway, I'm pretty strict-minded when it comes to prophecies and I really don't think Namo would be that imprecise. Must have been one of his Maiar or whatever.

[joncronshawauthor]

The Role of Prophecy in Epic Fantasy: A Soothsayer’s Guide to Unraveling Destiny

“It is a truth universally acknowledged, that a fantasy novel in possession of a good prophecy, must be in want of a destiny.” – (Almost) Jane Austen It’s no secret that every epic fantasy author worth their salt toys with the notion of prophecy. It’s the narrative equivalent of a spicy curry on a chilly, winter’s night. It warms you up, gets your heart racing, and if done well, leaves you…

[anghraine]

I know this has been noticed before, but Glorfindel delivering a prophecy about the Witch-king's destruction does not mean that Glorfindel is laying down the law about the Witch-king's vulnerability. Glorfindel in no way has that ability. He's struck by foresight about how the Witch-king will eventually fall and knows it won't be by the hand of "man." This doesn't mean any non-man/Man on the battlefield could have done it, or that Merry or Éowyn have some special "not a man" powers or abilities vs the Witch-king, but that Glorfindel prophetically knows the person/people who are going to end up doing it will not be men in any sense.

The ambiguity of Glorfindel's use of "man" here works really well for the English text, I'd say. In Tolkien's usage especially, "man" can mean "the species of humanity" or "adult male person," allowing for Glorfindel's prophecy to refer to Merry or Éowyn or both, but definitely not to Eärnur (an adult male and a human, however special).

BUT ALSO to be a pedantic nerd (when am I not?):

In-story the direct context of Glorfindel's prophecy is Glorfindel trying to convince Eärnur of Gondor not to pursue the Witch-king in Gondor's campaign against Angmar after the destruction of Arthedain. Glorfindel held him back at the time by telling him that he wasn't destined to defeat the Witch-king. But Glorfindel is a High Elf out of Valinor and Eärnur is a Númenórean prince of Gondor. Even by the end of the age, it's still very likely that a conversation between two such people would be in Sindarin or Quenya, and this interaction happens long before then.

This matters because, while the man/Man ambiguity works really well on a literary/meta level in English with what ends up happening, in the world of the story it wouldn't have been delivered in a language that actually contains that ambiguity (even Common may not, for all we know, but is unlikely to have been used here anyway). So, for instance, if Glorfindel was speaking to Eärnur in Quenya, he would have likely used either nér (adult male) or atan (human being), depending on which he actually meant.

From everything I've read of Tolkien's thoughts on the defeat of the Witch-king, I personally think it's likely that the prophecy would have referred to Éowyn rather than Merry, instrumental as he was.

But weirdly, this actually makes a lot of sense for the characters as well, IMO. Given how extremely unusual it appears to be for women of any species to be in direct combat in the regions where the Nazgûl are mainly active in the Third Age, it fits the Witch-king's overconfidence if he understood it to refer to gender and regarded himself as no more likely to be slain by a male Elf or dwarf or wizard than by Eärnur. And that would also fit with the uncertainty that strikes him when Éowyn declares that she's a woman.

So, in-story, I think the prophecy actually is about her and, more broadly, about gender.

[quinn10121012]

“Then all halted and stood still, and from end to end of the hosts of the Noldor the voice was heard speaking the curse and prophecy which is called the prophecy of the North, and the Doom of the Noldor.” - the Silmarillion, J.R.R. Tolkien

[selkiesstories]

The primary issue is that Martin and many others focus on Aragorn when they should be focusing on the hobbits. Aragorn is arguably a figure out of a story even within the world of Lord of the Rings. We don’t need to know the minutiae of his rule because everything the hobbits have observed about him has told us that the greater world of Men is in good hands. We do need to see the hobbits’ journey home as they, without any supernatural help, deal with Saruman’s rule of the Shire and rebuild. Aragorn’s Tax Plan (TM) is The Scouring of the Shire.

everyone who doesn't include the full quote when mocking GRRM's "what was Aragorn's tax policy" rhetorical question owes me $200