#Pit Madness

[ayamari-no-goshi]

Okay, we gotta talk about Pit Madness in the comics.

I keep seeing a bunch of people saying it’s not real. Problem. It is. It’s just rarely brought up.

It might not be the earliest reference, but we have this panel with Talia talking about how madness seizes him after dipping in the Lazarus Pit

Batman #244 (1972)

But this isn’t the only time we get reference to this. The panel below also talks about lore of the Lazarus Pits and again mentions that madness.

Batman: Bane of the Demon. Issue 3 (1998)

This gets referenced again in Hush when Bruce is fighting who he thinks is someone pretending to be Jason having been resurrected in the Pits during Hush.

Bruce is thinking about how he almost out Jason in a Pit after his death, but due to the madness the Pit can cause and Jason’s injuries to the head, he thought against it.

Batman # 618 - I think it’s volume 11 in the Hush omnibus (2003)

We see a reference to it again regarding Jason in the Lost Days. What’s super interesting here is that Talia states the Pits did NOT drive Jason mad, but Ra’s warns her that it’s possible the madness can occur up to years after a person’s dip.

I find this particular one fascinating, simply because of the lore that Pit Madness can take hold decades after a dip in a Pit.

Red Hood: the Lost Days #2 (2010)

Now, regarding Jason. There has NEVER been any concrete proof he’s suffered from Pit Madness. It’s very popular as a head cannon simply because Jason’s characterization is so all over the place.

Edit: Please keep in mind Jason was calm, cool, collected, and conniving in Under the Red Hood. Saying he’s Pit Mad there takes away all of the impact and gets rid of his motivations. Please be aware of this.

Now, that’s not saying there’s not a connection between Jason and the Pits. There was an entire arc in Red Hood and the Outlaws (2010) regarding this which also deals with Jason’s time with the All-Caste.

I still haven’t gotten around to reading that part, but it’s where the permanent augmentation theories come from. Oh, and Jason can canonically make constructs from Lazarus Water. Ra’s can too, but yeah… it’s a thing.

Red Hood and the Outlaws 2010 #27 (Released in 2014)

But while there’s no confirmation Jason’s dealt with Pit Madness, you know who has? Cass

Batgirl 1 #72 or 73 (2006)

Cass was revived after taking a blow for someone. And Shiva revived her, but there’s no permanence to it. And to my knowledge, I could be wrong since I’m not as familiar with her runs, this is the only time it gets referenced with her.

But going back to my original point that started this: Pit Madness is real. It’s just rarely seen in the comics. And if you want to use it, that’s fine - just be careful about its use since you can ruin characterization with it.

Edit 2: while there isn’t much of Pit Madness seen in the comics, it does seem to wear off over time. We also know a dip in the Pit temporarily increases brain power and physical strength/ability.

We also know that there’s a Lazarus Pit under Gotham and that its waters leech into Gotham’s water supply.

That’s referenced in Teen Titans vol. 3 issues 40-41 (2007) - forgive me. I don’t feel like looking up those panels

[imthenextrobin]

hc that everyone in the bat family bullies Jason over his “pit madness”

it started as a dumb rumor a goon started after swearing up and down that, while Red Hood was shooting at them, his eyes started glowing green.

it then snowballs into other people, including civilians, sharing their stories, all claiming that the Red Hood would “crash out” (as explained by one teenage boy) and get glowy eyes.

of course, when Duke overhears this at school, he immediately jumps in, telling a random friend group that he once saw Red Hood curse out a wall, yelling about his madness.

The group continues to spread the rumor, now with a name known as “Pit Madness”

When the rest of the batfam hear about this, some assume it’s an actual thing that Jason hid from them. Bruce, Dick, and Tim all start brainstorming ways they can help Jason, with Damian sitting in the back, shaking his head and groaning into his hands.

Of course they would later figure out it was just a rumor started in a random school that just got out of hand. (Duke was sweating in the background of that family meeting, hoping they didn’t know it was him that instigated it)

That doesn’t stop them from bullying Jason about it!

[raynetheinsane]

Pit madness isnt real, it has never been real, and it never will be real.

However, the batfam thinks its real.

Jason has extreme PTSD and he reacts like someone with extreme PTSD. There is no magical mindfuck happening.

However, Bruce (and the rest of the Bats) couldn’t just accept that Jason is this way now, that he has deepset mental issues that affect him heavily. Bruce can’t accept that Jason “Robin is Magic” Todd is no longer that kid and he needs some kind of reasoning for why Jason is no longer that kid.

So he turns towards “Pit Madness” and affect of the Lazuras Pit that never existed (shown my Talia and Ra’s not being filled with rage all the time) but Bruce has deluded himself and the rest of the family into thinking it exists.

Jason, also needs a reason to believe that he isn’t extremely traumatized and in need of extreme help, so he believes the Pit Madness. He believes that its a result of the Pit and not the trauma he went through because that is simply easier.

[im-totally-not-an-alien-2]

Jason has been feeling like crap lately. He's been avoiding the other bats more than usual and rarely wants to do anything other than sleep, even his hobbies and his night job have been falling to the sidelines.

He insists hes not depressed, just really tired, but Leslie and any other doctor hes seen hasn't found anything wrong. It wasn't until the bats kidnapped him and put him through intensive testing that they discovered what was wrong.

"Jason. You're pregnant."

Jason stared at Dick like he'd grown a second head. "I'm not trans Dickiebird."

Tim came over with a tablet, "The ultrasound doesn't lie." Sure enough the tablet showed a little fetus growing in his gut. What the hell. He wasn't even showing???

"Jason." Bruces gruff voice made him glare in the big bad bats direction, "Do you know who the father is?"

"Hell if I know! I haven't even slept with anyone in the past few months!" He seethed.

Bruce furrowed his brow, "Then do you know of anythin you might have come into contact with that might have done this?"

Jason flopped his back down onto the examination table with a groan, "If i knew I would have already gotten it when I started feeling wierd."

"What about a person?" Tim asked, "Do you think a mad scientist or magic user could have something to do with it?"

Jason stared at him with wide eyes, "Oh my god."

Tim blinked, "What?"

"Oh my god." Jason grabbed his stuff and practically flew to his motorcycle, fully intending on finding that glowy white haired "meta" that cured his pit madness. &$!% it all made sense now.

Cue Red Hood nearly busting Dannys door down while the latter was busy making mac-n-cheese. Danny opened his mouth, likely to make a quip, only for Jason to beat him to the punch, "You got me pregnant, you @$$!"

------

Aka theres a few prompts where Jason gets danny preggo but not many of the reverse, which I feel is a crime

[deadbeetleblog]

love that pit madness doesn exist ,jason just perturbed like that

[necrotic-nephilim]

"--but why should I let you go when you look so pretty like this?" w/JayTim

send a quote and a ship and I'll write a short fic!

this one was such a fun pick, anon. i will warn you, this one has some... very dark dialogue. the JayTim is absolutely unrequited, but Tim is forced in a situation where he has no other choice bc of some Ra's tomfoolery. you *could* read into there being Ra'sTim as well, but that's not the focus, it's just 2.8k of unhinged JayTim. enjoy <3

Tim had lost count of the days.

He was pretty sure he was somewhere in the range of ten days and two weeks. He couldn’t use how often he was fed as a gauge when it seemed purposefully sporadic to throw him off. There were no windows in his cell.

Not that it looked like a cell, but Tim insisted on mentally calling it one, mostly for fear of Stockholm Syndrome getting the best of him. No matter how large the bed was, with an ornate carved cedar headboard and cotton sheets. No matter the plush carpets and en suite bathroom with a gloriously large shower with limitless hot water. No matter the shelf full of books to keep him entertained and patterned wallpaper.

This was still a prison. Tim was still forcibly attached to the bed by a long chain connecting to a thick metal cuff around his wrist he’d yet to figure out how to pick.

Tim had to let himself believe the lock could be picked. He had to hold onto hope there was some kind of escape.

The real contrast of the lavish room wasn’t the chain, though. It was Tim’s current state, naked and questionably close to bleeding out.

Not that it would matter if Tim died.

Ra’s al Ghul had already revived him with a Lazarus Pit at least four times, and he had made it clear he had no qualms doing it again. And again.

Tim went with ‘at least’ as a mental marker, because he was certain the Lazarus Pit was starting to influence his mental state.

However many times it took, repeating the vicious cycle of coming in to torture Tim until his body gave out, then giving him a violent, unwanted rebirth. Each time, Tim was pretty sure he lost a piece of himself, somewhere deep in those glowing waters.

He was sure he’d been angrier and fighting harder to break free once. Now, that anger was drifting somewhere in the Pit, far out of Tim’s reach. Tim had heard that rapid repeated exposure to the waters of Lazarus could have degrading effects on one’s mental state.

But he never thought he would learn that firsthand.

Instead of fighting and clawing at the wrist cuff like Tim had been doing for days, he just laid on the bed, sprawled out and staining the chartreuse sheets a bright crimson, staring at the cuff. One time, Tim had clawed at the cuff until his nails ripped out of their beds and he was biting a pillow in pain, watching his skin shred trying to pull it apart.

Those injuries, much like his feral desperation, were washed away now. Every scar Tim had earned over the years was gone now. He was losing pieces of himself.

After his next death, Tim promised himself he’d redouble his escape efforts. Run his hands along the walls again, test the door frame, find something that he must’ve missed his first dozen tries. He wasn’t going to let himself rot here and be changed into someone else, just wearing the corpse of Tim Drake.

Ra’s could take a lot of things, but he couldn’t have Tim’s humanity.

For now, though, Tim was just going to lay in the bed, breathing as shallowly as he could. All his body’s survival instincts were in overdrive, making him light-headed and his heartbeat a rapid, fluttering thing, trying desperately to hold on. He had yet to figure out how to get his body to let go of those responses yet.

Because the worst part wasn’t dying. The worst part was the animalistic attempt to survive that came just before his body gave out. Tim’s mind had fought alongside his body the first time he died. The second time too.

By the third, Tim had just naively hoped Ra’s would let him stay dead.

Now, Tim was just tired and waiting for it to be over with.

Just when Tim was considering getting up and trying to speed up the process, he heard a commotion. He lifted his head and squinted.

The ninjas who brought his food were always so silent in how they moved that Tim couldn’t hear them even when they were in the room. So the running feet, the yelling-

The gunshots.

Definitely a fight. Tim snapped back to reality. He sat up as fast he could, trying not to let his body dip and sway the way his perception did. It had crossed Tim’s mind, that rescue would come at some point. But he refused to hold onto it as anything other than a futile last hope.

And even now, it didn’t feel real.

No one who would save Tim used guns. The ninjas definitely didn’t use guns either. Tim carefully wrapped the chain around his fist. Whatever energy was left in his body was better spent fighting like hell than just laying there and accepting death.

The door to Tim’s room slammed open and Tim sucked in a breath.

Of all the people it could’ve been.

“Look at that,” a smug, modulated voice crowed. “I’m the lucky guy who actually found your sorry ass.”

Jason Todd reached up and pulled his Red Hood helmet off, shaking his hair loose. Tim didn’t like the look of his smile.

Granted, he didn’t like the look of Jason Todd in general, but that was beside the point.

“What are you doing here?” Tim hissed through clenched teeth.

Jason just shrugged, walking into the room with slow, casual steps. “Bats wanted to find you bad. Bad enough he was willing to call me and offer a truce if I helped storm the stronghouse.” He shrugged like it meant nothing to him. “Looks like you’re lucky I said yes. You’re already half dead.”

“Others are here?” Tim’s breath caught on his hope.

“The whole fucking calvary.” Noises of a brawl sounded in the distance and Jason spread his hands, as if his point was proven. He took another step forward just as a ninja ran into the room, sword raised and charging Jason. Before Tim could warn him, Jason shot the person in the head over his shoulder, making them drop to the floor. A full-bodied flinch went through Tim at the sight of blood spraying the beautiful wallpaper. With an annoyed huff, Jason turned and kicked the door shut.

He didn’t signal for backup. Tim’s skin prickled at the sight of the shut door and Jason stalking toward him.

“This is the part where you say thank you,” Jason prompted lazily, getting within an arm’s reach of Tim. Tim couldn’t stop his body from recoiling, eyes flicking down to the dead body on the floor. “Oh come on. Now’s not the time to worry about morals. I gave them a quick death. You should be thanking me for that too.”

“I’ll thank you when you get me out of this,” Tim said, lifting his arm to show the cuff. He pressed his palm against the cut on his chest, the one responsible for most of his blood loss. Ra’s had blamed Tim for that one, saying it was his fault for squirming too much. Tim knew better, though. He knew every drag of Ra’s’ blade was always exact and purposeful.

Jason tilted his head to the side and leaned in close. He smiled with tiger teeth and snake eyes. “See, I would but-” his eyes dragged up and down Tim’s battered form- “why should I let you go when you look so pretty like this?”

Tim was suddenly all too aware of how naked he was, skin prickling. He grabbed a handful of sheets and yanked them over his lap, trying to cover himself. Jason made no move to stop him, just watching the motion of Tim’s arm as it grasped for a crude attempt at modesty.

“You said Bruce is here,” Tim chose his words carefully, trying not to show fear. He was better than being afraid of Jason of all people. He blamed the worst of his feelings on the vulnerable state he was already in. His fingers clenched the sheets to hide the way they shook.

“He’s around somewhere,” Jason waved his gun in the air dismissively. “But he’s not here, is he?” Another wave of the gun to gesture to the room. Jason’s eyes flicked down to the gushing chest wound. “You really need to cauterize that.”

“Do I look like I have something to cauterize it with?” Tim shot back, sluggishly. He didn’t let Jason distract him from the real point. “If you try anything, I’ll-”

“You’ll what?” Jason rolled his eyes. He searched around his utility belt, pulling out a lighter and a knife. “Tattle to Bruce? Fight me?” He snorted. “I don’t know which is more amusingly unrealistic.” He flicked the lighter on and held it under the knife.

Tim watched the blade heat up, eyes widening. “You’re not going to-”

“You’ve got a better idea?” Jason arched an eyebrow. “It’ll really piss B off if you fucking die.”

“Won’t be the first time,” Tim muttered under his breath. He cringed as soon as the words came out. That was too much information to be giving to Jason.

Another cruel snort came from Jason. “You got your own taste of the Pit, didn’t you?”

“No,” Tim tried to lie, shifting a bit.

“You did,” Jason hummed. He leaned in even closer, until his face took up Tim’s entire field of vision. “Trust me, I recognize the look in your eyes. Hold still.”

That was the only warning Tim got before a red hot blade was pressed against his skin. Tim opened his mouth to scream against the burning pain, but gloved fingers were shoved into his mouth to muffle the noise.

Tim tried to bite down on Jason’s fingers hard enough to break them, but the gloves were too thick and his body was too weak. All he could do was glare and grasp at the sheets.

The look in Jason’s gaze was terrifying. His lips held a slight smile and he looked hungry, eating up all of Tim’s tormented noises. Tim’s pain was a feast for Jason’s sadism. Tim was struggling just to stay alive and Jason looked like he was having the time of his life, licking his lips and swallowing hard.

Tim was starting to think maybe he preferred Ra’s over this.

Finally, Jason pulled the knife off of Tim’s searing skin and Tim sagged in relief. He almost fell over before Jason caught him around the waist, pressing Tim against his suit. Blood smeared over Jason’s jacket.

His fingers were still in Tim’s mouth.

Tim tried to speak around them but Jason just forced his fingers in deeper, making Tim gag.

“I could probably sneak out with you, you know,” Jason whispered into Tim’s ear. “Tell Bruce I got bored and left. They’d just think it was a bust.”

TIm had never understood Jason’s complex over him. He knew it was something he wanted to avoid at all costs. With Ra’s, Tim could at least find the root of the obsession.

With Jason, not so much.

He was always breathing down Tim’s neck and trying to get a rise out of Tim. Wanting Tim to work with him, pay attention to him, anything he could get. It reminded Tim of trying to tame a needy dog.

This was a step too far, though.

This made it all make sense in ways Tim regretted knowing as soon as it hit him. He twisted his head around until he managed to spit out Jason’s fingers, coughing.

“You don’t have Ra’s’ manpower,” Tim bit out the words. He tugged hard and uselessly against his cuff. “You couldn’t hold me for long.”

“Sounds like a challenge,” Jason hummed. “Tell me, Drake, you pissed off enough to actually try to kill me, yet? Or do you need another dunk?”

“Give me that knife and find out,” Tim curled his hand into a fist. He was bluffing. Just the thought of killing someone nauseated Tim, his eyes briefly flickering over to the dead body on the floor.

No amount of the Lazarus Pit could turn Tim into that. A cold-blooded killer who didn’t even look before he shot. Tim was better than that.

He was better than Jason.

He just had to distract Jason long enough to find where he kept his lock-picking tool, stab him in the eye with it, and then break free and find anyone else.

Maybe Tim was against murder, but there was just enough cold rage in him to crave bloody violence. He squirreled away his logical thoughts on the matter, for now. The situation warranted just a bit of brutality.

Someone had to teach Jason that he didn’t always get to have what he wanted.

Jason dared to groan softly. “Tempting. So fucking tempting. How would you kill me, Drake? Would you gut me? Slit my throat?” He sounded far too into the idea of it. The knife in his hand started trailing up Tim’s bare back. Not deep enough to cut, but still leaving goosebumps of fear in its threatening wake. “We borrow enough Lazarus water and we can take turns killing each other.”

“Borrow,” Tim echoed the word with an incredulous laugh. “Like Ra’s would let you.”

Jason’s laughter was sickening. “Didn’t plan on asking permission.” He paused, just as the knife dragged up to the base of Tim’s skull. “I’m serious, you know.” His voice got quieter. “I’d do it if you wanted to.”

“Kill each other?” TIm’s heart was pounding. He was doing the exact opposite of getting himself out of this situation. He was sinking deeper and deeper into Jason’s clawed grip and didn’t know where the escape route was anymore. He couldn’t pull away from the hold, with the knife pressed where it was. He definitely couldn’t fight Jason like this.

Tim was trapped in what he was pretty sure was a prison of his own making.

“Kill, kiss, fuck.” Jason shrugged. “I’ll take any of the above.”

Tim swallowed down blood and bile. “You couldn’t handle me.” He couldn’t show fear. More than couldn’t, he refused to. Giving Jason his fear would just spur Jason on more. Or maybe piss him off to the point of just killing Tim and leaving him there.

Now, with the teetering edge of Tim’s sanity under Jason’s scrutiny, Tim was positive he’d shatter if he got dipped in those green waters again. And he refused to let Jason keep the pieces left of Tim to himself.

He was not going out like this.

“Wanna bet?” Jason asked. “Winner takes all.”

He sounded insane. He probably was.

And he wasn’t letting Tim dance around a lack of an answer any longer. The tip the knife started to press harder until blood was trickling down his spine.

Placating Jason seemed to be the obvious and smartest survival method. If Tim faked it long enough, he’d have to have an opening sooner or later.

“If you can keep me alive long enough to get the hell out of here, then we’ll talk,” Tim chose his words as carefully as he could. He kept his tone light, in a way that was practically teasing. He hoped it was enough.

Jason practically preened, his whole body shivering against Tim’s. He lifted the knife from Tim’s neck to reach for his belt. Tim was able to suppress his sigh of relief, hearing the lock on his cuff click.

“Can you stand?” Jason asked, pulling away to stand up, but still keeping a hand on Tim’s shoulder. Possessively, almost.

Tim gave him a withering look. “Do I look like I can stand?”

“Good point.” Jason shrugged. He lifted Tim almost too easily, an arm around Tim’s waist to haul him off the bed, forcing the sheet to fall away. “God.” Jason paused for just a moment, looking over Tim’s naked form. It made Tim felt studied under a microscope in a way that made him want to crawl out of his skin.

He’d just signed a deal with the devil, and he was already regretting it.

Jason managed to snap out of it and carried Tim toward the door. Tim just held onto Jason’s neck for support and closed his eyes, trying to convince himself he hadn’t just made the stupidest decision of his life. He could still distantly hear other Bats fighting off ninjas. Salvation so close to Tim, yet still out of reach. Jason easily stepped over all of the dead bodies as they slunk through the hallways, away from the noise and into the darkness.

Tim couldn't escape the awful chill crawling down his spine; pressed against someone who was possibly more psychotic than the madman he was being promised escape from, grandeur illusions traded for the ugly truth of Jason's desire. His flicker of hope felt like it was being snuffed out by every heavy step of Jason’s boots. The best he could pray for was for Jason to give him a cell as nice as the one they were leaving behind. 

Out of one den of vipers and into another.

[frozenrogue89]

Pit Madness makes Jason more violent.

Red Hood is fiercely protective of and cares deeply for children.

Tim is Sad Baby.

Therefore, I raise the argument that the Titans Tower incident was an unfortunate case of Pit Mad Jason Todd having an extreme case of cuteness aggression.

[brucewaynehater101]

Hmm... If Jason was affected by Pit Madness, would it be attached to his body or his soul?

If he were to body swap with someone, would the Pit Madness follow him to the new body, or would it stay with his body?

Because his body was the one to be dipped, but it is magical/mystical. It also has power over life and death, so that's theoretically the realm of souls.... Yet, it heals bodies.

[dannyphannypack]

oh hear me out on this one . yknow the ectoplasmic filtration thing that is literally canon to danny phantom? what if when danny doesn’t clean it the ectoplasm that makes up the portal starts becoming corrupted and danny starts getting moodier … and what if he gets really busy and stressed out and forgets and suddenly starts snapping at sam and tucker and picking fights with students and being a little too rough on ghosts .. what if an improperly filtered ghost portal becomes the equivalent of lazarus pits … just a thought

[grahambaham]

So I've been complaining about “pit madness” a lot lately and I’d like to clear up that I don’t mind it being used as a plot device sometimes. Like, for example, Dark Matter by mysterycyclone uses it to create more conflict for Peter who we see struggling with it. I like that. That’s a cool way of adding to the dc universe, as long as it’s acknowledged as not canon and made for the purposes of the fic.

What I most certainly do have a problem with is using it as abuse apologia, as someone who read my earlier post called it. 99% of the time the pit madness is introduced as a way to excuse the actions of people under the influence of it, no matter how bad, making it so that the victims of that madness cannot blame the person who did all those things because it wasn’t really them. Fans of Jason are always the ones doing that because they can’t like a character who isn’t a perfect goody two shoes and have to find new ways to victimise and excuse him. It also makes it easy for the other Gotham/Bludhaven vigilantes, like Bruce Dick and Tim, to forgive him and be able to easily accept him back into the family without acknowledging that they’ve ever been wronged by Jason in the first place.

It happens in other media and fandoms too. Using any sort of implied mind control or emotional manipulation or just mental illness of characters to excuse the hurt they’ve caused.

As a plot device for fics though, that’s not used as abuse apologia or shit like that? Love it. It’s always super interesting to see, especially when new and interesting characters are shown as “under its influence”. Btw the excusing and stuff isn’t just about Jason, it’d be utter dog shit if they used it as an excuse for these other characters to do horrible things and be easily forgiven or whatever, so this isn’t Jason specific.

[deadsetobsessions]

I like the idea of the pit madness, I do. It’s one of my favorite topics. The potential for angst in a supernatural rage driving Jason’s actions and effectively putting him in the backseat of his mind during one of the rage fits is tempting.

But I also adore the idea of Gotham just having zombies be a regular thing. I adore the idea of Jason coming back and digging himself out of his grave out of sheer spite and trauma, all in the name of revenge. The only thing in his head is kill the Joker and nothing else. But he’s like a mini, breakable Grundy, and the League of Assassins coming in with the pit just to heal him and wind him up against the bats.

I like the idea that he got validated, at least in his intentions of murder and that he really took a dip in the dark side, to the point where he brutally beats/almost murder Tim (a child) because he truly does not care past killing the joker. I like the idea of Jason loosing what made him a good Robin and then finding it again and instead of killing himself to be that bright child, he reigns himself and his hatred in in order to stop hurting the people he loves.

Like he’s justified in his anger, but I like that it takes a while until he realizes he’s not justified in his actions (some of them, at least). I want Jason to choose to be ruthless, to be evil. I want him to voluntarily hurt Tim and make that decision with a clear mind. I want Jason to look at his life and choose the less lethal way and to own up to his actions without the shield of the Pit Madness.

Like, good isn’t something that comes easily to an adult. Jason’s no longer the kid he was when good was always the answer. We have to choose it, actively. I think Jason would be a good reflection of that.

[nana-mizu-shiki]

That would go over well.

"....Comes in a little box, you can put your homicidal tendencies in there for a bit, until we find a better container...."

"I am rocking this big brother thing. Up top.”

These are from different chapters but I love them all the same. I've been Dying to read Revived Tim & Jay Fluff. Just them Bonding over the trauma of dying. This fix even has JokerJr.!Tim !! I definitely recommend so far, I often don't finish long fics, and this one's 25 ch.'s, but I love it for how far I have read as of now.

[doraambrose]

Something that I'm starting to hate is the whole "Jason's eyes glow green when he's angry" or that his eyes are blue/green, but mostly the first point. It's just not true and it's kind of stupid tbh. If there's any actual canon evidence that he has had green eyes or glowing green eyes, please let me know, but I'm like 90% sure that most, if not all, canon comics have him with just regular blue eyes.

And also, I don't like "pit madness". It's weird and as much as I love jason, it's like a stupid excuse for some of his more vile behaviors. He did the things he did because he's mentally ill and has some hard-core ptsd and trauma and nobody to help him through it. Those actions were all him, not because of the Lazarus pit.

Honestly, anything involving jason being superhuman or permanently affected by the pit in that way needs to just disappear. He's just a dude, an impressive one with amazing skills, but still just a human dude, with mental illness and some hard-core daddy issues...and mommy issues let's be real.

Thank you for coming to my Ted talk

[ghost-bxrd]

The other idea I vaguely mentioned. I personally am fond of my idea that Jason would kidnap Tim as Red Hood, not to hurt Dick or Bruce... but because his time in the League has made him decide that Tim needs to go through training that Bruce and Dick would never allow. After all, Bruce and Dick went through extensive training, training that Jason now knows, from his own training in the League of Assassins, hurts. They both survived. Jason didn't. Therefore... Tim needs to undergo the same type of horrific training that the three of them have. So that he doesn't die... so that he doesn't die permanently anyway. Not while Jason has access to a Pit. Not if Jason can work out exactly what made Talons unkillable.

Tim needs to be trained, even if it kills him. It's the only way for him to stay alive.

I know this isn't as focused on Dick. But this version of Jason, a version that isn't angry but concerned and willing to act on that concern in some very dark ways... I thought it would interest you too.

Oh yeah okay uh this one’s a little too dark for me I’ll admit ._.

And I don’t think Jason would ever go to such lengths. The pit madness (my beloved) would more likely than not fuel him to attack Tim. But long term torture as ‘training’… I don’t really see Jason succumbing to that here. >.<

[im-totally-not-an-alien-2]

Danny and Damian twins au where Danny died and became a halfa on a mission to kill Vlad Masters. He succeeded but the portal blew up with him inside it due to some of the machines in the lab being damaged in the fight that happened not too long ago.

Danyal gets stuck in the Infinite Realms with amnesia and wanders around helping people and learning things about this new world like a video game protagonist.

Damian thinks he'll never get to see his baby brother again and blames himself since it was his job as the older brother to protect him. Damian life continues as normal and he eventually meets Jon otherwise known as superboy.

Jon reminded him so much of his late brother. It hurt. Damian found himself testing the boy just to make sure this wasn't a cruel trick or some sort by throwing things at him that Danyal definitely would have dodged or asking "innocent" questions. Even after he was satisfied that Jon wasn't a clone or anything he found himself more or less trying to turn Jon into Danyal. He offered him Daniel's favorite snacks and to play his favorite things and even got confused for a second when Jon didn't immediately know what he was talking about when Damian mentioned the constellations above Damians childhood home.

It wasn't even like Jon physically resembled Danyal either. Sure they both had black hair and blue eyes-as compared to Damians green- but it was thier personalities that confused him and threatened to drag him into the deep sea of grief he had kept bottled up in his heart all these years.

He needed to get away from Jon.

His heart wouldn't let him.

It was in Damians 14th year of life that his brothers and sister died. Unable to cope with this he brings them to the Lazarus pit where Jason attempted to stop him from reviving the rest of thier siblings in fear they would turn out like him.

Somehow the both of them got thrown/ fell into the pit with the bodies and something unexpected happened. Sure, thier siblings were revived and screaming but they were now on a floating island in a wierd green dimention that looked suspiciously like Lazarus water.

[cologona]

I need a pit madness fic for Talia so bad