#More just anti masculinity in queer spaces in general

[kirlianradio]

I’m all for transmascs and men being fem but god it drives me crazy when they join in the convo talkin abt how there’s NO issues towards trans masculinity or just masculinity in queer spaces in general.

Your experiences with bigotry are often rooted in how society views you, if the only time masculinity is perceived is mentioning your identity, of course you’re not gonna experience ppl hating your masculinity as often (not that you *don’t* experience it, just that it’s not gonna be the same as a passing transman/mascs blah blah blah)

Like it’s not even just transmen/masc who experience slights against masculinity either. While I definitely have more experience with the transman side based on my own identity there’s definitely others.

it’s ppl saying butch women are ugly disgusting men and a stain on lesbianism “embracing womanhood”, it’s passing transmen getting ostracized from our own community becuz we’re treated like a threat, it’s people being bioessentialist towards transwomen becuz being born a man means you’re “inherently evil”, its pppl who only ever talk abt transmen being masc when they do something they don’t like, it’s nonbinary becoming “womanlite” becuz fem gender nonconformity good and masc gender nonconformity bad!, its ppl who demonize testosterone, bottom surgery, and bottom growth for anyone who gets it, its ppl being abhorrent to cis gay men cuz “they’ll always inherently be just as bad, they don’t understand the true queer experience!”, its ppl using neutral pronouns on binary transmen cuz nonbinary is more “acceptable” than a man, on and on and on and on

Just overall while it’s understandable that the queer community has a complicated relationship with masculinity due to the systematic oppression from the hands of cishet men. Demonizing all masculinity and downplaying masculinity as inherently never having issues DOES end up eliminating the nuance of queer masculinity being a much more complex experience.

Ppl want to boil this down to always solely terf ideology but then it allows the queer community to make an “us vs them” standard and never question their own actions or biases. Anyone who doesn’t use the terf label on their account can spew terf bioessentialism ideology and the queer community eats it up without even noticing. Just fully throwing other queers under the bus.

( And no, before anyone tries it, I’m not saying femininity has no issues. Femininity is something that always systematically gets mistreated in every community based on societal standards. This isn’t me saying masculinity has it worse. I acknowledge there’s also some privileges that do come from masculinity. This is SOLELY me saying that we can acknowledge BOTH experiences issues without ignoring the other. I talk abt queer masculinity because that is *MY* experience so I feel more equipped to talk abt it, that doesn’t mean I don’t care abt the other)

[ugly-anarchist]

Alright, anon, I'm not posting your messages in 3 different posts so lets just break this down here

[Indented text is the anon message. This is going to be long as hell]

butch women and trans men are not oppressed for being masculine, they’re oppressed for being gender nonconforming females (not saying trans men are women, just stating how a patriarchal society sees them).

So, firstly, the thing I'm talking about isn't actually oppression on a systemic level. You're talking about how non-queer society sees us, I'm talking about how other queer people treat us. Butch lesbians have been pushed out of sapphic spaces for a loooong time. Butch lesbians are seen as scary, mean, violent, and inherently abusive within queer spaces. Which stems from a demonization of masculinity. I should know this. I identified as a butch bisexual sapphic for years. I know what this feels like. I was once told that people with "high T levels" are more likely to be abusive, which includes me because I'm intersex and have naturally high T.

Secondly, maybe don't try to define trans men's oppression for them? I'm not a trans guy either but I experience a lot of the same bullshit from society that they do and it's not just "being a gender non-conforming female" it's a lot more complex than that. And also just, in general, a very weird way to say it.

i’ve never heard a masc cis gay man complain about being welcome or not in queer spaces, to the point in which feminine cis gay men have complained about them writing “no sissies, masc4masc” in their bio on dating apps.

I have. I've heard plenty of stories about masc gay men and specifically bi men in queer spaces feeling very unwelcome because they were being treated like a threat. And some gay men being transphobic (because s*ssy is a transmisogynistic slur in this case) or having a preference for other mascs also isn't indicative of mascs being treated well?

Like I know a lot of butch4butches that have that preference specifically because they feel unwelcome or are treated badly by femmes. I don't know how you personally not hearing about it or what some people put on their dating profile proves here.

Also your complete lack of acknowledgement of bi men in this makes me doubt even more that your perspective on this is a valid one because that tells me you either don't know any bi men or you ignore them to such an extent that you forgot they existed.

claiming misandry or anti-masculinity exists is the same as saying that heterophobia exists because straight trans people are treated like shit.

Never said that misandry on its own exists, don't know where you got that.

People are treated like shit based on the fact that they are masc all the time. That is a thing that happens. I have experienced it, I've heard so many stories from other queer people who experience it. I don't know how saying "no you don't, I'm gonna tell you what you really experience" is at all an alright thing to do.

it’s not heterophobia, it’s transphobia/homophobia. in the same way that masc afab people being treated terribly is misogyny and homophobia, and has literally zero to do with misandry/“anti-masculinity”. if anti-masculinity or misandry existed, even straight cis heterosexual men would suffer from it.

So, like, I'm talking about anti-masculinity in the queer community. "If this is true here then it must be true with this different thing" is a really bad argument because you could use that to invalidate anything that is true.

For example: The definition of racism is "prejudice based on race" which technically that definition doesn't exclude white people but you don't see anyone arguing "if racism existed, even white people would suffer from it" or trying to say it's not really about race just to exclude white people. Like, obviously you can't be racist to white people and anyone who claims you can be is just making a bad-faith argument. I am looking pointedly at you when I say that, btw.

also, a lot of radfems are gender nonconforming women/butches and literally campaign for women to drop conformity to the patriarchal concept of femininity. gender critical conservatives are not radical feminists and y’all need to stop conflating the two because no matter what jk rowling says, in practice and in theory, they have very little to do with one another (and hate each other, at that).

There's actually two sides of the "radfem" spectrum and they're both just as bad. There's the ones who hate gender non-conforming women, specifically the ones who go on HRT, and claim they're gender traitors. And then there's the ones which you describe who usually shame women for liking feminine things. Both their beliefs usually go against the whole purpose of gender-nonconformity which is to be yourself and do what makes you happy, society be damned. People who are truly GNC don't judge others for presenting in a way that is typically considered "conforming" to their gender and don't campaign for other people to be like them?

Also... Are you defending radical feminism? Are you a radfem? Because that would make a whole lotta sense.

and one last thing,

Just so you know, this is how this anon began the final message. It is the longest one. Really said "one last thing" then sent me a whole 4 paragraphs.

please stop acting like “people who are attracted to men” are demonized in queer spaces, what a slap in the face to lesbians. the moment they have a little visibility y’all claim they are privileged and somehow bossing around/discriminating against gay men.

Never said that lesbians were the oppressor in this situation. There is no oppressor, it's fully lateral mistreatment. And like.. it's not about just gay men.

Bi women have been pushed out of and demonized within sapphic spaces for decades, actually. I should know. Because again. I'm a bi sapphic. We are seen as a range of things. Pretenders, abusers, invaders, the source of lesbian oppression, tricksters that try to force lesbians to fuck men, or just disgusting. Traitors. Again.

My own mother knows this because before she married my dad she was in sapphic spaces in the 90s. From her personal accounts, bi women were seen as the enemy and a lot of lesbians... weren't even lesbians. They were political lesbians. Women who rejected their attraction to men and only dated other women. Some of them were even straight. And they were considered more of lesbians than bi women were.

Even in the modern age, bi women are expected to shit on their own sexuality. They are expected to say "ew I hate that I like men" and never date or fuck a man to be accepted in queer spaces. Again, I know this because I'M LITERALLY BI.

gay men are literally the face of this community and continually disrespect sapphic/lesbians (see the billie lyric controversy, see the way they’re treating chappel roan, see the way they keep calling women b*tches with no regards on whether we like it or not, see the way they keep fraternizing with straight women that would literally cower in fear if they saw a butch lesbian in real life).

Yeah so misogynistic gay men are in fact a problem but I'm not talking about strictly gay men. I'm talking about the way masculine perceived traits are demonized within queer circles. Come on. I'm pretty sure cis gay men were barely talked about in my original post, why are you fixating on this so hard?

just because somebody who has literally no power over gay men whatsoever and has been traumatized by men her whole life airs out her frustration with her literal lifelong oppressors via tweet or tumblr post, doesn’t mean that suddenly the patriarchy doesn’t exist anymore and has not armed lesbians especially for the past thousands of years.

So I'm talking about the people telling me I'm inherently abusive or more likely to assault people based on the fact that I have high T levels... I'm not talking about people venting about their abuse at the hands of men.

I also never said the patriarchy doesn't exist... I feel like this message isn't about me anyone.

stop painting them as the mean bosses of the community when actually they are a very small, demonized minority who suffers every day at the hands of anyone in the world who likes men (straight women, gay men, even bi women like me).

Fascinating... So... I'm not doing that. Lesbians are not the "mean bosses" of the community. Some are just treating random people shitty for perceived masculine traits with no bearing on truth or reality. A lot of them aren't even lesbians. Like I never said this was a specifically lesbian issue. I said there was a problem in the community in general. So like... all people... not just lesbians.

Also, genuine question: How are you oppressing lesbians for being bi?

it’s such a warped, harmful view and a big stereotype, at that (lesbians are man-haters who hate women’s boyfriends!! what a progressive statement!! never has it been said before, and especially not by homophobic conservatives).

I mean I just didn't say that. I don't know how to respond to this because I just straight up didn't say that.

I just... This isn't about me anymore is it?

Who hurt you?

have some respect for once, a lesbian literally threw the first brick at Stonewall.

So... uh... we don't actually know for 100% certain who threw the first brick. Some say it was Marsha P. Johnson. Some say it was "gay street kids". Even if it was a lesbian... so? Just because one lesbian did a good thing doesn't mean other lesbians are incapable of being dicks to other people?

Idk, man, I never said that lesbians were the source of all evil. I just made a post about my own personal experiences and the experiences of people I know and have seen being talked about. I'm a bi, intersex, non-binary sapphic. I get shit on for the things that people perceive as masculine traits that I have and the fact that I like men. This happens a lot.

I don't know why me saying "hey please stop implying that there is something in my blood that makes me inherently abusive" is lesbophobic. Why is this about lesbians, actually? You made it about lesbians. Why are you using lesbians, a group you've stated you're not a part of, as a gotcha against me? Why are you using lesbians to silence me about my own experiences? Why is that okay?

[taylortruther]

Idk if this is an unpopular opinion or more of an observation: this fandom is very much not normal about gay men. It makes a 100% sense that conversations about homophobia in the fandom mainly are about sapphic swifties, because they are a huge part of the fandom and face intense harassment. Men generally are less prominent within the fandom, so I see why people don't always think about how they are spoken about. However, because of this and the fact that "twitter gays" are enemy of the state for swifties on that platform because of their frequent dislike of Taylor, it can feel like homophobia geared towards gay men is a free for all. And I don't just mean the absolutely horrendous comments people leave on Twitter, but also the way people talk about Joe's "lack" of masculinity or make jokes about him being bi* in a way that reduce (male) bisexuality to something ridiculous. Even the anon you got after somebody said Joe would have been good in Challengers felt (unintentionally) dismissive of him potentially playing a gay role. Why is that? This might also be a tumblr thing where the demographic of the website is a bit different then on twitter, but the fact that one of the main groups that regularly get harrassed by Swifties are gay men is frequently ignored and that rubs me the wrong way, and I think it relates to how the fandom in general talks about gender and sexuality.

*addition: the assumption that Joe must be queer because of his quiet demeanor or the field he works in was huge in the fandom at some point and it has always felt icky to me and very much tied to traditional gender roles, which is something this fandom is very infected by. But this was also very en vogue in gaylor spaces, for obvious reasons, but there is also a convo to be had about how gay women don't always treat gay men with dignity or respect. (Their male privilege is not a catch all excuse.)

you're preaching to the choir here. it stems from the same issues of misogyny and homophobia as the anti-wlw sentiments though. like, it's wrong for women to express sexual desire over another woman, especially one like taylor, whose femininity is pretty paramount to her persona. and in comparison to uber-masculine travis, joe becomes "gay," just like josh kushner was called gay in kaylor circles because of his ~mannerisms~ or perceived lack of masculinity. there are many other things to say about this phenomenon but it should be very obvious to everyone by now that swifties (like the rest of the world, but it's highly visible in this fandom due to who taylor is and how she looks) have very intense opinions about what femininity and masculinity should look like. and if someone in the universe steps out of line then it's criticized pretty openly.

[thecoolerliauditore]

One small thing I think a lot of people seem to have trouble differenciating twink and fem, like they can overlap but they are not interchangeable and one of my biggest complaints about the anti-twink thing is that when most people say it they mena anti-fem. Which... I will not get into it but I will point out that throughout all of western history from greeks looking down on gay men who take on the "feminine" role of bottoming to the edwardians with their "feminine gay men are a third gender" ideas, to the late 20th centurys misguided respectability politics of "straight gay" and "manly gay" and the distane for overtly feminine or camp gay men as offensive that followed, any percieved femininity in men being bad is a time honoured tradition even among queer folk. You even see it within the minor acceptance of gnc aesthetics where femboys and fem androgyny get backlash while bearish men wearing makeup and pink are praised as being more gnc. Kaz Rowe has touched on this topic in their videos on occassion alongside other similar topics. People WILL find a way to rag on men for daring to be feminine even within spaces made for feminine men...

... but that's all getting way too deep into queer history and far away from mcyt fandom, but I think about that a lot whenever I see someone using twinkification to complain about the overtly or implicitely feminine features specifically rather than the boyish and youthful aesthetics of twinks as a whole. There's overlap as you said in being clean shaven and petit but I do not think a lot of people have actually sat down enough to break it down and think about why they dislike those particular features that are often sited. A common example: being short is in fact not a twinkish trait, its a fem trait. This is a general issue of unmasculine = feminine to most people and the lack of acknowledgment of androgyny or ungendered traits. Either youre manly or youre not and if youre not youre fem, and if youre fem and a man especially a gay man that's bad.

I don't think anyone is being overtly misogynistic I just think as the internet spaces are wont to do they've moralized their preferences or examined the social acceptability of them as much as they would like to believe. Its like complaining about dyed hair and pride flags being the default popular option, you are in the counterculture space where those things are finally acceptable and people are allowing themselves to express those traits. Please learn to separate preferences from morality.

.... sorry i went on a tangent I think I dont remember why im here talking about this...

Not much to add except that this is a good add on, and alot of this also acts as another reason I try to emphasize that I don't pass moral judgments based on how people draw characters -- I too have biases I could easily project onto others and what is moral in my worldview could be the opposite for someone else with a different mindset.

FYI I do agree on the young twinkish /=/ fem, using my own designs as examples again I do think my Grian and Scott you could argue are feminized compared to their respective CCs, but I wouldn't call them feminine on their own. I mean there's definitely wiggle room and something there about comparing designs inspired by anime tropes which stem from Japanese beauty standards and conceptualizations of masculinity to maybe some of the whitest men currently walking planet earth but. yeah in my opinion my Grian isn't fem he's just a twink which other people might see as "feminized" -- I just made the assumption anon was at least partially talking about designs like mine because I feel like he's pretty much the standard fanon grian design to me unless the entire grian tag started drawing him with eyelashes whilst I wasn't looking. Psychosexual game of telephone.

But anyway yessss good shout on the queer history, I was actually just on a derek guy thread mentioning the "manly gays" of the 80s who dressed in a way to combat the effeminate reputation gay men had (and thus alienated the gay men who Were feminine). He talked about how a lot of that style has now gone mainstream and been adopted by very homophobic men which is very funny and ironic but also interesting how that loops back into itself.

Also got interested in the videos you mentioned and this was the one I watched (cus I found it first)

LOTS of good points in here I think people should know because this made me realise despite how influential anime is on this fandom, most of the people here aren't necessarily weebs or aware of fujoshi history. Really liked the points about xenophobia and how western BL is held up as "progressive" whereas asian BL is "problematic" in peoples minds as well as the mentioning that a lot of the strongest anti-fujo sentiment comes from people who would very much be considered fujoshi by the men who coined the term. This comment sums it up better than I could, I think.

Because. Yeah. Thinking about that point I talked about awhile back where a lot of the people who I've seen hate on "anime twink grian" have very twinkish designs themselves. It also seems to be a sliding scale of what a "twink" even is, this is a non-fandom example but I was reading this manga with a friend and they called this character a "twink", which I think really emphasizes how a lot of peoples conception of "twink" is more of an amorphous concept than just the body type.

So what you end up with is people who draw very standard Grians and then hate on others for drawing more or less the same design but in a more explicitly anime-inspired style or like. slightly smaller/skinnier.

I'd be interested to hear what your disagreements are with the video cus personally I'm not so sure about the roundabout "But Bad Yaoi is still Bad" stuff which is essentially still the same Good Queer, Bad Queer attitude that haunts so much queer discourse but that's just me. Also not entirely sure about the women liking BL because they like men, nearly all of the fujos I know have very little interest in men irl, but I'm also very much surrounded by queer people so my data is also biased.

REALLY GOOD POINT ABOUT THE TERF/ANTI-FUJO OVERLAP TOO. Not much to add in that regard but it's been something I've noticed and I'm glad I'm not the only one. I remember seeing a lot very. Strange stuff coming from people with rainbow flags in their bio about the creator of the webtoon Boyfriends when I was paying more attenton to webtoons.

I think you mentioned the whole. pushback against twink designs being counter-counterculture awhile back and I think that sums it up really well. Let men be masculine, etc etc

And all of this really doesn't even? Mean much from me I think cus I'd like to think most of my designs although differing from the CCs ARE pretty recognizable as 30+ men with like. very minimal frills (long haired etho clawed out of me kicking and screaming I think). So I really do not have a horse in this race at all lmao I just don't like people trying to police fandom with nebulous assertions of morality, especially when it's like. That video of the hyper-woke dude and the trump fanboy who have different takes about topics but arrive at the same conclusions. Girl just draw your own shit if you don't like luminousslime it really is not that serious and sometimes a specific design just. leaves a deep impression on the fandom consciousness. What I said before about how I appreciate people who just make their own shit instead of complaining that they're not being catered to.

[variousqueerthings]

“one of the top three sexiest robin williams roles” you can’t just leave that in the tag without saying what the others are (but if I’ve missed it OTL)

Okay, okay I admit, I was being mildly flippant because I think robin williams is highly capable of being sexy and armand is a great example, however now that we're here, let us consider the tenets of the sexy robin williams character

EDIT: also at this point, apologies, I was out travelling for a few days, I was not ignoring you. ahem. continuing:

did I come across him as a kid/teenager in a story that made me cry my eyes out

moustache/general hairiness

how queer is he

how well-dressed is he

how anti-authoritarian is he

does he make me laugh

Let's go wild and say every one of these gets rated from 0-10 (with 0 being for example "not at all hairy" and 10 being "sexy motherfucker")

now, here's some of his most well-known ventures

good morning vietnam: he's not got a moustache, because it's the army, but because it's the army his natural anti-authoritarianism is dialled up. he queers the space and goes hard on the camp comedy. loses points for being about americans in vietnam, and he's kind of a pest towards a vietnamese woman to begin with (although he does improve). best out of context line: "we can't say dyke these days, we can't even say lesbian, we have to say woman in comfortable shoes." Also the movie ends on a dorothy/wizard of oz quote. it's definitely not queer, but it's also... a choice.

0 on me crying for him, 3 on his chest peeking out once or twice, 7 on queerness (although I cannot overstate that it's not queer, but it IS him doing great camp as robin williams), 4 on the well-dressed I guess, at least he's not always in khaki, like... 6 on anti-authoritarian, because he's still an american in vietnam, 6 on the laughter because when I laugh I laugh a lot, but some of it ages pooorly = 26 points

dead poets society: the og "teacher you had a crush on, because he affirmed your queer identity and taught you poetry." I have since worked with tutors who taught me poetry and yeah, you do get heart eyes at them, poetry and being heard just does that to you. it's anti-authoritarian of course, it's professor-chic. it's low on the hairiness scale though. of course, it is also very very sad. he's dressed like me 20 years from now.

9 on sobbing scale, 2 on hairiness from memory, 8 on queerness in that whole fucking movie, 7 on well-dressed (this is about my gender okay), 5 on the laughter he's still robin williams even when he's only joking around a little, 8 on anti-authoritarian = 39 points

to wong foo: only in it briefly, canonically bisexual, leaves an impression, however the birdcage gives him more to work with, also... he has a soul patch, it is there, one must see it RIP. however I like that he just appeared in this movie, which was very bold in the way it cast its roles for the time

0 on sobbing scale (for him), 0 on the hair-scale my goodness, 10 for queerness that is a bisexual man (his truest self), 6 on well-dressed yes he's technically well-dressed but I don't like it much, and 5 on anti-authoritarian -- he's a queer so duh but it's not really in the plot for him, 7 on the laughter he's just charming = 28 points

bicentennial man: he's a robot who argues for his right to be considered alive. he's not my personally sexiest robot of all time, but every robot is a sexy robot. this one also made me cry (we're seeing a trend huh).

IIII cannot rate his sexiness in this movie, it's been too long -- will have to rewatch and get back to it

good will hunting: we love a dramatic turn, I wanted to say, but he did a lot of dramatic turns actually. this one might be the most straightforward dramatic that I've watched though. he's got a beard! he's helping out a kid without a lot of opportunities. he's challenging toxic masculinity. we love a sexy bearded man who's making the world a better place, breaking the cycle

yeah I cried at this as a kid 8 points, iiihihihi he has A BEARD 10 points! queer ethos related to breaking the cycle of toxic masculintitty and being someone who's looking at methods of healing and non-nuclear family support networks but not overall super queer on his character's front necessarily 5, 4 on the well-dressed it's worse than dead poets, 7 on anti-authoritarian, hmmm and 4 on laughter... it's still robin williams = 38 points

jumanji: a mess of a person who never shaved before, that's trans man aesthetics forya. he's a bit too busy for me to consider him sexy necessarily, he arrives and immediately man-eating plants, man-hunters (no innuendo intended), floods, and what-have-yous follow. he doesn't have time to be sexy, but that being said...

yes I cried to this movie as a kid 7 on the sad williams, okay he is hairy but is he kempt at all??? still 6, idk if it's queer to be trapped inside a game for most of your life but it'll certainly make you neurodivergent which is queer enough 5, badly dressed (sorry) 3, anti-authoritarian... tricky... he doesn't get on with his strict dad as a kid, he evades a man-hunter (again, no innuendo), he gets arrested by a cop and he continues to roll the dice on a game that wreaks havoc (although he continues to abide by the rules of the game sooo there's a whole essay here, let's just say 5), 4 on the laughter = 30

hon mentions: hook -- makes me cry too hard to even consider sexiness + when I was a kid it was all about dante basco. mrs doubtfire -- the particular kind of drag he does doesn't do it for me, but we love a genderfluid icon. mork&mindy -- I haven't actually seen it, but he seems too baby overall at that point. flubber -- he's got that mad professor type Look, but I've never actually seen it (I saw a trailer over and over on one of my vhs' as a kid), life according garp is a weird fucking movie which is surprisingly trans-positive but also just like... not well-made, I wanna watch what dreams may come

AND FINALLY BIRDCAGE - one of my queerbaby movies I elegantly let the tears fall 7, HIS CHEST HIS FACIAL HAIR HIS ARMS 10/10, 10 ON QUEERNESS, 10 ON DRESS, loses points on the authoritarian because he gives in to his petulant son's demands for heterosexuality BUT gains some back for his speech about being a middleaged fag + standing by his lover at the end 7, YES HE MAKES ME LAUGH 8 = 52

DING DING DING actually Birdcage is robin williams' sexiest role woops are we surprised?

generally: robin williams is underrated as a hairy man tbh, my guy's arms and chest are 👀👀👀👀👀

[eldorr]

Desert Enbian

Plain flag (left), Flag with stripe meanings (right)

This term/flags were originally posted June 5th, 2022.

Last year or so (actually around 2 years now upon re-posting) I made my own take on the lesbian/gay/vincian/enbian flags since I am critinclus/radinclus. However one of the two posts detailing these flags was lost, so I am remaking/renaming them, along with simplifying and cleaning up some stripe meanings.

The original flags I made were 9 stripes, and I didn’t like the way I simplified them into 5 stripes, so I’ve decided to make a simple 6 stripe one. Some of these flags will look very similar to the ones I originally did, and some will look way different.

This flag is coined as a Enbian flag, however anyone who is Q4N (Queer for Enbies/Nonbins), NLN/KLK/XLX, or identifies their attraction to enbies as queer regardless of their own gender or other attractions. (Basically anyone who feels like a enbian, but may not 100% identify with the enbian label for any reason, is allowed to use this flag, as long as they recognize it as the Desert Enbian/Q4N flag. You could call yourself Desert Cenelian/Omni/etc in order to make that connection.)

This flag stands for inclusion and solidarity within the Enbian community, and between the Enbian community, other Q4N communities, and other non-primarily Q4N Queer communities (Lesbians/Vincians/etc). Generally just look at the stripe meanings if you want the general idea, I go into more detail for my reasoning below each meaning. This is a LONG POST.

.

The Stripe meanings:

Top/Vibrant Aubergine Magenta: Aspec Enbian, Monospec Enbian, and Mspec Enbian inclusion and solidarity.

The Desert Enbian flag is radically inclusive of Aspec and Mspec enbians, even though I personally haven’t seen much anti-aspec or anti-mspec stuff coming from Enbian spaces, I do remember one time two people arguing with me that Enbian’s exclusively NLN, of which it never was or will be, so here we are regardless. Monospec Enbians should have solidarity with Aspec and Mspec enbians.

—

Second Stripe/Vibrant Wine Red: Multigender Enbian, Genderfluid Enbian, Genderflux Enbian, Monogender Enbian, Xenogender Enbian, Agender Enbian inclusion and solidarity.

Of course these are not the only genders included under this stripe, however these are some of the more excluded and misunderstood even by general enbian spaces, so they’re here to explicitly say they’re included under this flag. Monogender Enbians should stand with Enbians with more complicated gender identities.

—

Third Stripe/Orangy Red: Pronoun-Non-Conforming Enbian, Gender-Non-Conforming Enbian, Pronoun-Conforming Enbian, Gender-Conforming Enbian Inclusion and Solidarity

This stripe is here due to some exclusion in enbian spaces against feminine, xenine, and masculine enbies; believing that non-binary presentation can’t be masc or fem. This stripe is for explicit inclusion of she/her, he/him, it/its, neopronoun, nounself, emojiself enbians, fem, transfem, transmasc, azalean, carnatian, butch, femme, rosarian, transxen, xenic, amaranthian enbians. Gender and Pronoun conforming enbians should include and have solidarity with non-gender/pronoun conforming enbians.

—

Fourth Stripe/Faded Orange: Enbian and Non-Enbian Q4NB inclusion and solidarity

This stripe is here to include non-enbian Q4N in enbian spaces, conversation, etc. This stripe stands for and includes anyone who has Queer love for enbies, and doesn’t primarily identify as a enbian. This includes saturnic, cenelian, celarsian, hecatolic, turquoian, etc. This stripe can also include enbians who are not explicitly Q4N, and may be NBLNBM/NBLNBW enbians. Non-Enbians are not the enemies of enbians, and enbians should include and have solidarity with other Q4N.

—

Fifth Stripe/Hazel Yellow: Femme Enbian, Futch Enbian, Butch Enbian, Twink Enbian, Otter Enbian, Bear Enbian inclusion and solidarity.

This stripe is here partly for the same reason as stripe number three, however with the added notion that Femme/Futch/Butch are not lesbian exclusive terms, and that Otter/Bear/Twink are not vincian/gay man exclusive terms. There may be many reasons someone would use these terms, Femme/Futch/Butch generally relate to gender-presentation, and Otter/Bear/Twink generally relate to one’s body. Of which there is a lot of fatphobia in queer communities, so this stripe is primarily here to focus on challenging what a enbian “looks like”. Butch and Femme enbians are not the enemies of Futch enbians, and Bear enbians and just as valid in their enbian identity as Otter and Twink enbians. Be inclusive and have solidarity with other enbians, even if they don’t “look like” a enbian. Challenge fatphobia, transphobia, and queermisia in your own communities.

—

Sixth/Last Stripe/Vibrant Dark Olive Green: Otherwise Marginalized Enbian inclusion and solidarity.

Like I mentioned in stripe number five, there is not “look” to being a enbian. This stripe is for the explicit inclusion of otherwise marginalized enbians, whether they be BIPOC, a religious minority, trans, intersex, polyamorous, chronically ill and/or disabled, neurodivergent, fat and/or a bear, etc. Include and have solidarity with other enbians, whether or not they’re like yourself. Challenge bigoted rhetoric in your own communities.

[safety-pin-punk]

Warning about looking for punks in queer spaces, generally speaking: depending on where you are, a LOT of queer spaces are going to be very gentrified and have a lot of anti-punk stuff going on, so just be super aware if you go that route and on the lookout for what spaces are friendly and which ones are run by, like, corporate stuff and nonprofit dipshits.

(I'm actually from the same city as you OP xD which was so funny to notice when I opened your blog and saw it in your bio like wow hella coincidence!!! But yeah we deal with that a lot around here. I started holding my own queer events because so much queer stuff around here was run by people who support cops and work for corporations and stuff so the spaces were full of middle class white people who support them and act uncomfortable when you're too "weird" around them. It's so tiringgg!!!)

BROOOOO

1. It is actually very cool that you are also from Pittsburgh 😎 (I put that in my bio cause I got like 3 asks about it from occasionally using yinz lol)

2. You bring up a good point!! Not all queer spaces are safe spaces. I’ve never actually experienced this in the city itself (but I also dont venture *into* the city too too often), but when I was in college, we had TEA, aka The Everyone Alliance, and it was run my the absolute worst group of queers I had ever met. Like I’m talking hated any ounce of masculinity, queer or otherwise. They hated bi people in straight passing relationships. They were just a nightmare group of people who gathered once a week to find new ways to promote their club while putting down everyone else. I also went to a very christian university that supported this club. So yeah. Be safe out there and do your research.

Though, I’m sure you’ve heard of it, if you haven’t, you should totally check out Blue Moon on Butler Street. One of my favorite places to go on Saturday nights (they do drag shows every Saturday and I think hold drag king shows once a month too). Also also….. you should totally send me more info about the events you put together lol

[thecottageinthedark]

there's nothing intrinsically More Interesting or More Genuine or More Functional about queer relationships.

the difference here is that queer people, in general, are more strongly incentivised to try stuff that's outside the tiny little box of shit that's acceptable to society. and that little box has all kinds of stupid shit in it about relationships. stuff that's hard to see at first because we all grew up in that box and it looked normal.

queer people need to step out of that box at least a bit just to have sex or romance at all. straight people don't.

but, and this is a big but, that doesn't mean that all straight people ever have stayed in the box re how they do sex and romance. there's always gonna be some who realise that they can leave and that outside is better.

and that's a good thing and we should encourage it.

also, m/f relationships are not necessarily straight. bisexuality is a thing. asexuality is a thing. aromanticism is a thing. trans people are a thing.

some people would have led with that but i wanted to make a different point. there's too much snobbery in queer spaces on this site, and not only is it obnoxious, it's got knock-on effects that are actually pretty bad for queer people. exalting our relationships as intrinsically special and holy denies the experiences of people who have been in or still are in shitty queer relationships, whether those are abusive or dysfunctional and unsatisfying in other ways. exalting non-m/f relationships specifically contributes to biphobia and aphobia, and often to a kind of anti-masculinity that is tied in with transandrophobia.

(and yeah I know the original post was talking about fictional ships but those are just the tip of the iceberg here.)

"how can m/f ships be good-" first of all through the power of bisexuality anything is possible so write that down. second of all if we start othering ships based on gender and nothing else we're no better than the opposition. third of all you need to watch more addams family

[obsidianflow]

The Major Issues about anti Mspec Lesbian debacle

SO I’m a little insane and i decided I’d make an entire essay about this because otherwise I wouldn’t be able to sleep!

I’ll preface this by saying that this isn’t room for Anti Mspec Lesbians to get in my notifs and send me shit like ‘ummm actually you’re wrong’ because this is literally just for me anyways, just putting it here so people can see and possibly share thoughts, idk. If you send me anything about how wrong I am that’s really short I’m just going to block you, as a fair warning lmao

1: The whole ‘Lesbian means Non-men loving Non-men’ argument

Now I dont think its hard to see that this is transphobic, but I’ll explain anyways because I like explaining! Now first off, the major thing that’s face value. Non-men is just. A new way to shove nonbinary people back into the binary (Which we all know is the opposite of the entire fucking point) This ‘non-men’ and its counterpart just completely ignores multigendered and fluid gendered people! As well as just.. People with more complex relationships with their masculinity/femininity than just ‘not a man’ and ‘a man’.

And another thing not relating to transphobia now, definitions of these labels _will _vary from person to person. That’s the beauty of queerness, we all define it differently for ourselves! And that’s _okay. _Queerness isn’t, and never has been, about being understandable. Its about comfort, the labels are just there to find other people that are similar to you, and have a community! We’re here for a good time, not laying down and being as understandable to the cishets as we can. Whether or not they can understand us isn’t going to change their feelings about us, a majority of the time. They just say ‘its too weird’ as a way to make fun of us, not an attempt to understand or learn or listen. They don’t care either way.

2: Men can’t be lesbians

I get it if this one feels a little weird, we’ll get through it.

Now, the issue with this is that this is just going to keep queer people out of their own spaces! This doesn’t acknowledge multigendered, genderfluid, people who identify as a man for their own safety, as well as trans men who just don’t feel comfortable identifying as straight (Which I don’t blame them, because a large part of our community demonizes straight people, who would want to be the butt of their peers’ jokes?)

And that’s only a few examples, there’s plenty of experiences I’m sure that aren’t encompassed here. But that’s the thing! There are 8 billion of us on this planet, we’re never going to document every single sexuality experience out there. In general, this is meant to exclude the ‘enemy’, which a lot of people have conveniently made the Male Gender their scapegoat, but it more often than not just excludes other queer people. Which, we understand excluding other queer people isn’t the best idea, right?

3: Men are going to infiltrate our spaces and harm us

Men who feel like they can ‘fix’ lesbians are going to infiltrate your spaces whether you like it or not, but they’re not going to identify as a lesbian to go about doing that. Have you ever heard a story of a man actually doing this to groom lesbians? Because I sure as hell haven’t, and I’m always open to hearing stories about stuff like that.

But unlike that what if, I have heard stories of ‘Cisgender’ men identifying as lesbians and subsequently finding out they’re trans at some point afterwards (or even stories of ‘cisgender’ men identifying as lesbians despite being openly trans!) I’ve Met people from these stories, I’ve talked to them about those stories! There’s an entire phenomena about it at this point, it happens a lot more than you’d think. 

When you base your identity off of being hurt, and only ever stay in that hurt, never look out to better things, you’re just going to harm others. It’s happened time and time again, I’ve seen so many communities that have this same issue. The term Lesbian and generally any other sexuality labels should be based in Loving, not hate of some identity group you’ve been hurt by.

If your sexuality is impacted by your trauma, and other factors of being hurt, that’s okay! What I’m saying is we shouldn’t be morphing entire identity labels to be based only in hate of their abusers, when the original definitions were always based in love and only love. It seems like a waste of a good thing, honestly

4: Just make a new label

I hate to tell you this bud, but making a new label isn’t really going to work for everyone when there’s already a label that’s perfectly applicable. Why would you make a new term if one already works? The only reason I think would be to avoid hate from people who dislike the label you’re using, but that’s more of ‘avoiding getting rocks thrown at you’ than being happy with yourself and defining yourself comfortably. And it’s not even really something you share with absolutely everyone, either. It’s for you primarily. Why should you be conforming to someone else’s ideals just so they’re comfortable, when opposed to you being even more ‘weirdly’ queer than them.

5: I’m not comfortable with someone identifying this way

That’s fine! You don’t need to be comfortable with their identity. But that doesn’t mean its inherently harmful to your identities, that doesn’t make their identity inherently lesbophobic. In general this is an issue that a lot of white queers have, automatically assuming anything that makes them uncomfortable is an attack on them. Not everything is against you just because you’re discomforted by it!!!

6: This is a new label coined by someone on tumblr in 2016

Well my first question, if you’re seriously saying this, is ‘Have you ever actually gone looking for the history about this label? Have you ever researched this label?” Because if you did do any research, you’d probably find that bi dykes have existed since the 80s

I use these posts as a general just place to look at some history stuff, just some stuff I’ve found myself! They include sources, and more information.

<Post 1> <Post 2>

I’d also like to add that if you’re going to argue history, the original definition of lesbian is much closer to the modern definition of sapphic than the modern definition of lesbian. Lesbian meant the queer attraction to women, or generally Not Adhering to Female Gender Roles. It’s very different!

7: Lesbians need to separate from Bisexuals

Yikes. Never got over the lesbian separatism movement, did we?

8: I don’t understand it

That’s fine. You don’t need to understand it! It’s complex, it’s different, it’s strange. Of course you’re not going to fully understand it. That’s okay. All we’re asking here is you open your eyes a bit, and try to be more open towards different experiences. Don’t give into the stupid echo chamber of ‘X is phobic’ without any complex explanation into it. Topics like these that have so much nuance can’t be explained so easily, that in itself feels like more erasure than the mlm flag being similar to the sunset lesbian flag.

Non rebuttals

I haven’t even finished with everything either, because it still goes deeper than just that.

A majority of the people I’ve seen who are anti mspec lesbians are white, which plays a very major role in the whole thing. It just goes on where white cis women are taken more seriously than black trans women, and it all cycles out of control. And the majority of mspec lesbians I’ve met have been POC, my own partner is a POC mspec lesbian! I think at the very least if your side is majority white and the other side is majority POC, there’s something wrong there, and you should be thinking harder about the whole issue. At least start by trying to hear the other side’s argument!

This is just history repeating it’s self, honestly. Queer history has been demolished because of homophobia time and time again, so we don’t know the history and are doomed to repeat it. It happened with trans people, it’s happened with nonbinary people, it’s happened with pretty much every queer identity under the sun. We find a new scapegoat and run off with hating on them, despite us all being queer together. The cycle of hatred is more than a little annoying at this point. Everyone preaches about being so inclusive, and in the same breath rants about mspec lesbians being an issue. That isn’t inclusive, if you’re wondering.

A very major thing I think the Anti Mspec Lesbian side needs to realize is that you can’t make such bold claims as another queer person being against your identity without at least hearing their argument first and genuinely listening. You have to make an effort to listen to them, and deconstruct your own thinking to see if it truly is such. We recognize that people shouldn’t be put in jail without a fair trial, we should probably extend that to each other outside of the courthouse! I personally don’t think someone putting an identity label on themself is phobic of another identity, I think it’s a little absurd that even came around as a concept. It feels like reaching for straws, really.

In general, this doesn’t even go over everything either. Throughout this entire thing, all the arguments I went through, white supremacy is riddled throughout them. The need to have things be understandable, the need to separate, etc. It all very easily comes down being white supremacy.

Anywhoo! That was long. If you have any thoughts, feel free to add on, but here’s my essay

[unhinged-transmasc-man]

• Before everything else: you need to unlearn the thinking that being masculine or a man is a bad thing. You aren’t evil, you aren’t oppressive, and you aren’t betraying anything by being a man. Your actions determine that, not your identity. If ppl around you make you feel bad for being a man, you don’t have to be around those people.

• Speaking of emotions, your anger is not automatically bad now that you identify as a man. You also may cry less, which isn’t a bad thing.

• Don’t deny your own experiences, I know you’re used to being gaslit and denied discussions of pain, but your experiences are valid and anti-transmasculine bigotry is very real.

• Learn to stand up for yourself (assuming it’s safe). If someone who is not a trans man is being bigoted towards you, denying your experiences, or generally being disgusting, you have a right to stand up to them.

• TESTOSTERONE IS NOT POISON!!!! Testosterone is not bad, it will not make you evil. Testosterone and estrogen are morally neutral. Testosterone is what is helping you, it is NOT evil and is in fact very good :]. You’re allowed to be excited about taking testosterone. Do not let the demonization of masculinity in the queer “community” stop you from being proud of yourself.

• You are trans because you are masc/a man. You are allowed to be excited about getting more masculine. You are not celebrating misogyny by becoming a man.

• Going to the gym can genuinely help a lot with masculinizing your body, especially with arms and shoulders (can also help reduce hip size).

• Use Underworks for binders (also called compression shirts), not GC2B. Genuinely amazing quality.

• Makeup can actually help to contour and masculinize your face (make eyebrows darker, appearance or emphasis on facial hair etc). Jewelry can also look masculine. So can long hair.

• It will take a while to feel comfortable in a male identity. You’ll get more comfortable with it as time passes and you get affirmed more often.

• It is really important for you to get friends who are guys. Specifically other transmasc and trans guys. Cis guys too, if you can.

• You likely already have an ideal form of masculinity you want to emulate, based on media you’ve consumed. Explore :]

• If you have a large chest: Do not only wear button down shirts. Wear a tank top or shirt and layer the button down OVER the shirt, it makes you look more rectangular and hides the chest a bit.

• Watch cis guys for how they hold themselves and how they walk and move. Only imitate what you want.

• Medical transition is another puberty. There will be parts you like and parts you don’t.

• You’ll probably be more hungry, most likely have more energy, and will most definitely need to shower more.

• Small things can help with affirming masculinity: BOXERS!!!! Men’s haircare, soap, dress socks, clothing, etc.

• Confidence is half the vibes. Once you get to a certain point, your attitude will determine how people see you.

• Facial hair can vary WILDLY. As with most things in puberty, things will come at different times. My voice dropped a lot within a few months, but facial hair has only really started after a year-and-a half.

• You do not have to be feminine. You do not have to be feminine. You do not have to be feminine. You do not have to be feminine.

• Queerness is not inherently feminine. Masculinity can be and is just as queer. Research the history of trans men and masc queer people.

• You don’t have to change your interests, but any new ones you develop are perfectly fine.

• No one is allowed to discount your previous experiences or current experiences. You’re allowed to tell them to fuck off, no matter their identity or how they weaponize it against you.

• Twitter and Reddit are both awful for trans men/mascs, tumblr is probably the best bc we have an actual voice here.

• Especially if you are a trans man, you may eventually feel that the entire community hates you. Please try and have a strong support network, find spaces (ideally led by and that center trans men/masc people) that value your masculinity and are generally decent. Try and meet irl trans people, ideally older trans people. It will remind you of the solidarity and beautiful history that trans and queer people have as a whole.

• Masculinity and manhood are not a curse, they are a gift. What you do with them is up to you. Being a man is a morally neutral act. I love you <3

A few tips for young trans men/boys, transmascs, anybody who wants tips:

If somebody makes you insecure about your masculinity or manhood, 9/10 times, they're trying to sell you something (and the "something" won't be worth you fretting about)

Wash your face before shaving and use a good shaving cream. Always make sure your razors are sharp

Your body doesn't need to look like a Hollywood star's body. They are most certainly dehydrated, and they are not a realistic depiction of a masculine or male form

Dress in whatever way is most comfortable, including dressing like Adam Sandler

Military-grade is often used as a marketing scheme, save your money

If you aren't happy right now, one day you will be. This is a threat and a promise

Your emotions are not "good" or "bad," they are emotions. Let yourself feel them even if they are uncomfortable

Masculinity and/or being a man are yours to define, and I cannot stress how important it is to have a relationship with your masculinity and/or manhood that is defined by you

You're allowed to have any relationship with your pre-coming out self that you want or makes the most sense with your realization that you're trans

[dunmertitty]

i think one of the more obvious problems with transandrophobia that i don’t really see people talking about (although i do try to avoid that subject in general) is that for any other marginalized group where multiple genders are being oppressed, there’s really no other group that has a specific word for prejudice against the male group? (and no, homophobia doesn’t count because lesbophobia is a type of homophobia). there’s not a specific name for racism against men, there’s not a specific name for ableism against men, there’s not a specific name for bigotry against religious men. even within the queer community, anti-masculism, isn’t about just men; it’s about hating masculinity in any queer people: butches, bears, leather daddies, genderqueer people, trans people of all genders, etc. but all of other these groups have found ways to talk about the differences between the bigotry ppl perceived as men face vs the bigotry ppl perceived as women face. you can talk about transphobia targeting trans men without being weird and creating a transmasc-only community that separates itself from the greater trans community or even the greater lgbtq community. only idiots and transphobes are out there are saying “transmascs don’t experience transphobia”. i just don’t think we need a separate word for trans male specific transphobia. if we can talk about biphobia specific towards bi men and homophobia specific to gay men without making up weird mra words for them then why can’t we also be normal and do the same with transmasc transphobia. it also feels weird and misgendery and honestly pretty transmed-adjacent to ignore the transphobia the rest of the trans community faces in favor of having a male/transmasc only space? also any time another trans man disagrees with you, you talk about how they’re not real trans men or not even real men? toxic masculine incel shit tbh

[googledocsdyke]

Do you have any thoughts/recommended texts for Cas analysis? I genuinely love the dean gender studies and I just wanna know what people might apply to Cas.

yes absolutely!! while dean studies is my first love i also deeply love cas analysis (casnalysis?) and wanna strive to do more of it. here’s some stuff off the top of my head:

1. gender, sexuality, heavenly embodiment

this is much more theological and less psychological than dean’s whole Deal because there’s so much fascinating stuff around how the angels in general experience express and conceptualise gender (@autisticandroids has a good post about angel gender & lily sunder has some regrets) but for cas in particular there’s this fascinating kind of collective fandom agreement (which i DO also agree with) that cas’ own gender kind of is gay man, that he actively chose gay manhood, but also that he’s kind of..... lacking the Insane Genderishness that dean exhibits at all times, even though he actively chose to engage in male gendering and became so comfortable housed Within Jimmy that he, as some post i saw the other day that i can’t find anymore said, “became his own body” when jimmy died. 

like on the one hand there’s an almost-canonical transness to the whole process but it also never feels fully written-into because 1) the supernatural writers for all their insanity are sometimes very boring and *most* of the time only feel interested in narratively expressing angels As Their Vessels anyways and just like leaving convenient spaces around these questions (boldest thing they ever did was hot girl cas which i WISH i had the range to unpack) 2) there’s a vague inevitabilist shrug to the whole thing since they obviously weren’t gonna recast misha collins (though they HAVE tried to get rid of him) and 3) something amorphous about cas’ entire..... personhood? makes him Empty Of Gender as a contrast to dean’s Full Of Gender (i believe it was @deanwinchestergender who said this) and like is it just the juxtaposition to dean/jensen’s whole insane Deal? or something else? 

like he actively chooses the terms of his own embodiment and yet narratively it feels like a shrug. and we’re all like “well obviously even though he’s a celestial being he was always a gay man” and like WHY. i love it idk idk much to think about! and yeah just in general the theological questions of possession and cas genuinely Becoming a man as he iterates himself consciously towards humanity it almost feels like. by doing the most boring things possible with his gender they made it interesting? idk if that makes sense.

2. discipline, free will, metanarratives

cas is like a tool (“i am not a hammer, as you say”) held in constant discipline and surveillance by the system that enmeshes him and it’s really, really fascinating to watch the way the angels hold each other to conformity. especially pre-god they kind of produce each other as foucauldian disciplinary subjects (which i posted about here) in perpetual visibility through angel radio, generating their own and each other’s conformity rather than being directly ruled through like a single centralised source of power. only the spectre of a god. and obviously cas’ whole thing is that he has ALWAYS disobeyed and the narrative affords him this psychological interiority never given to the foucauldian subject, an internal will and desire for freedom in a way that fits more with the liberal subject (super roughly and not with the same pro-capitalist implications but he has this internal drive for self-liberation. 

and that’s also where the metanarrative comes in ofc! i think it was @dykecas who said that cas is a real person written by people who hate him, and there’s this crack in the narrative (mirroring the crack in his chassis) where cas gets in, over and over, despite all the order imposed by the show’s authorfathergod. like we’ve all seen the analysis about how it was Never supposed to be this way they DID try to fire misha collins in 2012 and yet this gay man literally cannot be stopped! i think actually his appearance in scoobynatural is a neat little distillation of this — he drops into this animated world originally with a singular purpose (Save Sam And Dean) the same way he dropped into lazarus rising with a single 3-episode arc (Save Dean). huge hammer behaviour. his “utility” diminishes within the narrative (he finds that he can’t fly in the scooby doo universe) and so he is no longer a tool/means to an end that salvation moves Through. and in the process (and huge creds to @lesbianyuugi for this) he does something ENTIRELY unrelated to his original cas-as-tool aim, and learns, like, the meaning of laughter from shaggy and scooby. WHICH brings me onto the third point

3. love, queer kinship, family-making

HE’S GAY AND HE’S A DAD! i feel like a lot of tumblr throws around the term “found family” in a very flat and tropey way (which is fine it’s cute and fun no matter what!) but like . GOD there’s so much specific stuff going on here. like the way that cas (unintentionally) obliterates the midwestern white christian nuclear family (made incarnate in the novaks) which like could be uniformly portrayed as an act of deep malice and villainy but instead grows to serve as a surrogate (if imperfect/complex, but DEEPLY loving) father figure for the gay daughter who has now escaped that nuclear family/seen it destroyed depending on how you read it? like he remasters the entire concept of fatherhood and it’s a very interesting (if DEEPLY) unintentional subversion of the homewrecking non-nuclear gay trope. cas is so good because his character arc doesn’t say “look, gay people can be normal and have perfect settled families just like you” it says “gay people DON’T have normal settled families actually and they are full of love anyways! or Because of the abnormalcy itself!) 

to cite ziz lesbianyuugi again he DOES queer fatherhood in his parenting of jack particularly because it really is one of the ONLY parent-child relationships in the show that breaks the incessant cycle of abuse and control and cold indifference perpetuated by the authorfathergod (a cycle reified in 15x20 lol). like god’s treatment of cas and his siblings mirrors john’s treatment of sam and dean (particularly dean) mirrors victor’s treatment of krissy and her crew mirrors dean’s later treatment of jack. there is a CONSTANT reiteration of the story of authorfathergod (often a father tightly entwined in biological kinship) treating a child as a mechanism or a tool or a means to an end. and cas looks at ALL that he has suffered and all that he is ever known and chooses constantly to reject it with every piece of love he expresses for his child. and not to sound like the kind of academic people make fun of on twitter but there is an INHERENT queerness to that. gay love will pierce through [the veil of death/the thick silence of abuse/the mechanism of godly control/hegemonic american masculinity] and save the day

anyways here are some very haphazard recs on everything above for further reading:

angels in america (tony kushner)

histrionics of the pulpit: trans tonalities of religious enthusiasm

the public universal friend: religious enthusiasm in revolutionary america

discipline and punish (michel foucault)

friendship as a way of life (michel foucault)

the genesis of blame (recommended by @pietacastiel who has GREAT theology content in general

all about love (bell hooks)

the chapter “when hated characters talk back” in anti-fandom: dislike and hate in the digital age (is actually explicitly about cas)

also cannot recommend enough following the ppl i tagged above!! most of the unlinked stuff is available through http://libgen.li/ and bookshop is a good alternative to amazon if ur american and want physical copies

[figmentof]

Love your meta post and honestly think it all comes down to subverted gender roles. A lot of people really struggle to see ted with his ‘feminine’ personality traits as a romantic lead. They just can’t see why Rebecca might find that appealing. Queer fans are more likely to find that dynamic interesting I guess. I’m sure I read somewhere that the ted/sassy thing was basically written in so that people didn’t desexualise Ted but I don’t think it’s worked. There’s this general expectation that romantic love isn’t part of his story.

Also you just have to look at all the people who were totally blindsided by the Nate story to realise a lot of people just don’t pay attention to foreshadowing. Hopefully if the show starts spelling it out more in S3 more people will be along for the ride.

it's a trip and then some that we really can't escape heteronormativity even when shows are now actively reverting it. i'm in queer fandom spaces so often that i forget that the general public doesn't take men having "feminine" traits and women being more "masculine" well at all

i vaguely remember that trivia was from a podcast where Brendon (or was it Bill) said they noticed Ted's kindness/gentle nature was making him seem too "pure" so they had to throw that part in at the end of 1x07-- HOWEVER, they originally planned on having Rebecca at his door but decided against it because "their relationship was far too important for that". which probably is the closest to canon confirmation that Jason and his writers are fully aware of Ted/Rebecca being a worthy relationship that should go beyond a fling. i wonder if that would give the antis an aneurysm if they heard that, or would they deny it even further? (probably the latter)

there's a critique of lack of media literacy somewhere in there re: Rebecca wants/needs as well as Nate's journey down into darkness but i'm not going to go there today 🤭the irony that the age-old issue of shows putting work into showing and not telling and people not getting the message. it also comes as no surprise how so many people were upset that s2 took a "dark" turn and wasn't funny anymore because s1 seemed so bright and cheery and feel good (which.... what? Ted had a full-blown panic attack did people forget that?)

i wish more people would see the beauty in following the breadcrumbs but for the sake of tedbecca endgame i hope they give us a huge steak in 3x02 and throws their romantic interest in each other at the audience

[transandrobroism]

just from my own experiences i would say that... pre-transition:

- the general widespread negativity towards men in progressive/leftist/queer spaces - especially online - made it harder for me to realise i was trans. a lot of very terf-esque "kill all men" jokes, jokes about men being babies who need to be "housetrained" etc etc. it added up to a general impression that being a woman was "better" and that wanting to be a man was a step down somehow

- i didn't get good sex ed in school so the first i learned about trans people was in my 20s and the focus was mainly on trans women. it took several more years for me to realise that it was even possible to be a trans man. again, the general negative vibe towards any form of masculinity didn't help with this either.

post-transition:

- when i first came out i went through at least three online communities that were also very anti-men. it was hard to find community at all because all the supposedly mixed trans spaces ended up sidelining trans men somehow.

- one community i was in at around the time i came out to myself was for late blooming lesbians that advertised as an open space for nonbinary people, bi people etc. but in reality mods did very little to prevent a culture of "men are bad, attraction to men is bad, nonbinary is only okay if you're femme about it". i ended up leaving. a lesbian i made friends with there ghosted all contact with me when i told her i was a man and wanted to transition.

- i joined a few trans support/trans memes subreddits but they were also dominated by transfems for some reason. that's not bad in and of itself but they had a tendency to post "jokes" about how testosterone is poison and we should put estrogen in the water supply. it got tiring.

- another mixed trans server i joined was also largely trans women. there was a channel specifically for trans men and they had to restrict access after a bunch of transfems started posting long walls of text in there about their own experiences. it's a small thing but it contributed to the general vibe i got that online queer/trans spaces aren't really for transmascs.

- right here on tumblr i had to block several people for things like denying trans men experience any transphobia at all, calling trans men unsafe etc.

- i think people dismiss this kind of thing as a trivial concern but trans men have i think the highest rates of loneliness and suicidal ideation in the whole queer community. and a big part of that is queer spaces skewing femme and being "women and nonbinary" and generally ignoring or actively alienating trans men because masculinity makes people uncomfortable.

- i don't really have a friend group irl at this point because i lost my main friend group when i came out. they were variously transphobic/homophobic and i didn't feel safe coming out to them. some of them also didn't like socialising with men for various personal/cultural reasons and i didn't wanna make them uncomfortable.

- in general it feels very socially acceptable for women to hate on men and say they don't want male friends or don't want to hang out with men. it's like progressive spaces have flipped cultural misogyny on its head and the cool hip position is that men are terrible and it's okay to want to exclude them from spaces. sometimes this gets justified with the line of "well you wanted to be a man..." as if we're expected to take some gender euphoria from being treated with suspicion.

- i still don't reliably pass all the time and still get misgendered. i've experienced misogyny my whole life and still do sometimes in situations where i don't pass

- when i went to change my gender marker on my medical record i was told I'd lose access to things like gyno care because my record says 'M'. i have no idea what would happen if i needed an abortion

- the fear of sexual assault resulting in pregnancy is very real and probably won't go away until i get a hysto

some broader cultural stuff:

- testosterone is a controlled drug which makes getting it harder, and DIYing it harder

- online trans spaces for DIY hrt clamp down hard on anyone talking about DIY testosterone because it's a controlled drug. this is particularly impactful in the UK where we have waiting lists for trans care that are over 3 years long and often a lot longer.

- there is a lot of general fearmongering and negativity about ftm transition even in ftm spaces. it's a lot of "will T make me ugly/angry/hairy" and endless negativity about bottom surgery and how phallo "looks ugly" etc etc. there seems to be a lot of scary misinformation out there about the effects of T.

- the UK actually went through a stretch of several years where they did no ftm bottom surgeries at all. in the whole country no one was getting dick surgery.

- a lot of the current transphobic push has focused on transmascs and the whole "irreversible damage" thing. the transphobic Cass Review specifically mentioned the rising number of transmascs being referred to gender clinics as a cause for alarm, and that review was used to push through a ban on puberty blockers for trans teens.

- in general i feel like... transphobia towards transmascs involves treating us like confused self-hating women who've been brainwashed into mutilating our perfectly healthy bodies. it's a form of transphobia that infantilises us and treats us like we can't make our own decisions. somehow at the same time we're also inducing "rapid onset gender dysphoria" in vulnerable teen girls, apparently, which makes us sound like a weird cult.

- i also hear the "trans men pass easily" urban myth floating around queer spaces a lot which is bonkers to me. binders never worked for me. and you always hear about how unsafe they are to wear for long periods of time and how you can damage your ribs etc. i can't tell if that's true or just more scare stories about how dangerous it is to be transmasc, but either way it's like... if you're pre-top surgery "passing" involves wearing the Scary Compression Garment that will Break Your Ribs which is either a legit health concern or alarmism that serves to make ftm transition sound terrifying

i can't say for sure how much of this is specific to transmascs, but if i had to pick the main themes of anti-transmasculinity it would be: (a) queer spaces really don't like men and masculinity and trans men often get pushed to the margins or excluded entirely; (b) transmasc transition treated as something terrifying and dangerous to ourselves and those around us; and (c) condescending treatment from transphobes who think we're being inherently misogynistic just for transitioning at all.

❗️❗️ This is asked entirely in good faith. This post is intended to open dialogue and help with solidarity and understanding. ❗️❗️

I would like to hear specifically from trans men and trans mascs how the system of [whatever the fuck you call the intersection of transphobia, misogyny, and specifically your gender- whether transandrophobia, isomisogny, antitransmasculinity, transandromisia, transmisandry, or any that I have missed as there are a lot of words to describe similar concepts] uniquely targets and affects you. Things that you feel other demographics do not experience. Reblogs and replies are very encouraged! If you would prefer, you could dm or send an ask to be added anonymously by me.

This is in the spirit of wanting to understand. I am listening. I encourage all non-trans-mascs to not speak on this topic and let trans mascs and trans men do the talking here. Reblog the post to spread it, but please say nothing.

Any and all people who identify as trans men and/or trans mascs are encouraged to participate.

This is not bait to start a fight. I will block without hesitation anyone who is actively being a shithead on this post. I want to hear and uplift your voices by getting it directly from you.

Click this to access the trans fem and trans women version of this post.

Click this to access the nonbinary version of this post.

Click this to access the intersex version of this post.

[baya-ni]

SHADOW’s Queer Coding

I first started exploring this idea of Sk8′s implicit queer rep (as in stuff other than explicit same sex intimacy) in this post.

I know we like to joke that Hiromi is the Token Straight of the protag gang, but I argue that he’s as much an example of queer rep as any of our main characters, albeit in a less conventional and fanservicey way.

So that’s what this post is gonna be, an analysis of Hiromi/SHADOW as a queer figure, how his character fits the Jekyll/Hyde archetype as a metaphor for queerness and The Closet, the similarities between SHADOW as a skatesona and early drag, and how his character represents a larger problem of exclusion within queer fandom spaces.

The 1886 Gothic novella The Strange Case of Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde by Robert Louis Stevenson is the origin of the phrase “Jekyll and Hyde”. What I’m calling the Jekyll/Hyde archetype, refers to the same thing; it refers to duality, to a character who is “outwardly good but sometimes shockingly evil” (as described from the novella’s wiki page).

And the Jekyll/Hyde dynamic has also long been associated with Queerness. The antagonism between Jekyll and Hyde as two sides of the same person resonates with many people as similar to the experience being in the closet, and many many scholars have written about this queer reading of Jekyll and Hyde. Do a quick google search if you don’t believe me.

Hiromi experiences his own Jekyll/Hyde duality through his SHADOW persona, which seems to entirely contradict with Hiromi’s day to day personality.

Whilst Hiromi is sweet, romantic, and generally very cutesy, SHADOW is mean-spirited, sadistic, described as “the anti-hero of the S community.”  And though these two personalities seem entirely at odds, SHADOW doesn’t exist in a vacuum, he’s very much a part of Hiromi. In the show, this manifests as SHADOW’s sabotage moves being all flower themed, as Hiromi works in a flower shop, and how he’ll “step out” of character when playing babysitter to the kids.

Below is passage from an essay titled, “The Homoerotic Architectures of Strange Case of Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde” which reminds me a lot of Hiromi’s character, such that I think his character arc can be read as an allegory for coming out and self acceptance.

The closet, here, is a space not only for secrecy and repression, but also for becoming; it is the space in which queer identities build themselves up from “disused pieces” and attempt to discover the strength needed for presentation to the world. The closet is both a space of profound fear and profound courage—of potentiality and actualization. (Prologue)

Unlike the kid/teen characters, the show’s adult characters all lead double lives. When they aren’t skating, they have day jobs. Kaoru is a calligrapher, Kojiro is a restaurant owner, Ainosuke is a politician/businessman (but tbh his job is just being some rich dude), and Hiromi works in a flower shop.

But of the adult protagonists (so not Ainosuke), Hiromi compartmentalizes the most.

Kojiro leaves his face totally exposed such that he can be recognized both on and off the skate scene. Kaoru at least covers his face, but his trademark pink hair and constant use of Carla doesn’t make it very hard to connect the dots between him and CHERRY. He’s also always with Kojiro in the evenings, so if you don’t recognize him as CHERRY when he’s on his own, you certainly will when you see him interacting with Kojiro/JOE.

Next to these two, Hiromi seems the more adamant at separating his Work from Play.

Even when he’s been clearly found it, he still tries to deny that he and SHADOW are the same person. Miya even uses this to coerce Hiromi into helping him and the boys:

I don’t think it’s a stretch to say that the separation between Hiromi and SHADOW can be interpreted as a metaphor for being in The Closet. As SHADOW, he leads a secret life, one characterized by an tight-knit underground community with a vibrant night scene, where he behaves in ways typically frowned upon by larger society. He worries about being found out and judged by the people close to him.

But in Ep 4, the walls of his Closet begins to come down, or in this case is literally imposed upon by other members of his community, by its younger members, who don’t feel the same need to hide their passion for skateboarding or lead the same kind of double life.

We then see the line between Hiromi and SHADOW begin to blur.

He becomes less of an antagonist, and instead the audience sees him become a mentor and “mother hen” figure for the younger skaters. Later on in Ep 4, we see him casually interacting with the other protags in full SHADOW mode, not as an “anti-hero” but as a friend.  In Ep 6, he acts as a babysitter for the kids, and we see him totally comfortable appearing both in an out of his SHADOW persona throughout their vacation.

And I think that this gradual convergence of Hiromi and SHADOW will culminate in this tournament arc.

There’s something more personal that’s driving SHADOW to do well in this tournament. It’s not just for bragging rights or his pride as a skater, but the results of this tournament is going to have some kind of greater impact on Hiromi’s personal life. Personally, my theory is that Hiromi is using this tournament to prove to himself that he’s worthy enough to ask his manager out on a date.

Hiromi is no longer compartmentalizing, his two lives are overlapping and influencing each other. Recall the essay quote I cited earlier:

The closet... is the space in which queer identities build themselves up from “disused pieces” and attempt to discover the strength needed for presentation to the world... of potentiality and actualization.

This is exactly the case for Hiromi. Through skating, he is piecing together the disparate parts of him such that he can present himself to the world as a more unified and confident being.

And the show presents the very skating community that Hiromi has been working so hard to keep separated from his personal life- Reki, Langa, Miya, Kaoru, and Kojiro- as the catalyst for that becoming.

That, my dear readers, is queer coding if I ever saw it.

But there’s probably gonna be people claiming something along the lines of “But SHADOW can’t be queer rep because he’s Straight!” And I assume that’s because he shows romantic interest in his female manager.

First of all, Bisexuality. Also Ace/aro-spec people. And second of all, SHADOW is Hiromi’s drag persona.

And before anyone can say anything about how Hiromi can’t do drag because he’s straight (assumption) and cis (also an assumption) uhhhh no, fuck you.

Drag didn’t start with RuPaul’s Drag Race, that’s just how it got mainstream. And it’s also how it got so gentrified and transphobic. You heard me. But anyway.

Drag is, and has always been, first and foremost about exaggerated, and oftentimes satirical, gender presentation and performance. It’s about playing with gender norms through artistic dress and theater, not so much to do with sexuality or gender identity.

Literally, what’s the difference here?

SHADOW is a persona of exaggerated masculinity with a punk aesthetic. Regardless of his sexuality or gender identity, Hiromi’s gender performance as SHADOW is drag- that makes him queer representation, change my fucking mind.

Queerness is more than same-sex romance, and by extension, good queer representation is not limited to canonized gay ships. The very word Queer, in it’s ambiguity, is meant to encompass the richly unique experiences of everyone within the LGBTQ+ community.

In my opinion, Queer =/= Gay. I mean, they’re colloquially the same yes and even I use them interchangeably. But for the purpose of this post, they’re not the same, and that’s to argue that Hiromi/SHADOW’s lack of acknowledgement as queer rep illustrates a larger issue of exclusion within fandom.

I mean, this is something we all kinda been knew, but in the case of Sk8 specifically, there are a two main reasons why I think Hiromi is rarely acknowledged as queer rep.

1. He’s not shippable with another male character

Fandom favors mlm ships when it comes to what’s considered good queer rep. And the ultimate mark of good queer rep is explicit acts of romance or intimacy between two male characters. Unlike with any of the other characters in the show, we can’t point to Hiromi and automatically clock him as gay, especially because he expresses romantic interest in a woman.

So by default, he’s less popular, because “Ew Straight People” amirite /s.

2. He’s not attractive

This is really interesting, because like JOE, Hiromi is a beefcake.

But fans don’t thirst over him the same way they do over JOE. Granted, the show really plays up JOE’s muscles in a very strip-teasey way that literally encourages viewers to find him attractive. By contrast, Hiromi is pretty much covered head to toe and he paints his face in theatrical makeup- the point is to look scary, not attractive.

In essence, even though Hiromi engages in “queer behavior” through his SHADOW persona, his queerness isn’t palatable.

But I also think there’s some pretty insidious undercurrents of fetishization going on here, of both Asian people AND gay men. Which is... a whole other thing I really don’t have the capacity to unpack completely.

But basically, Hiromi doesn’t fit into any of the popular BL archetypes so he’s less likely to recognized as Queer. Relatedly, he’s also less often subjected to a fetishistic gaze as other characters. I mean...

So again, fans just don’t find him as appealing. Attractive characters are always more popular than ugly ones.

And I’m sure there are a lot of people who just don’t care for Hiromi’s personality, that’s fine, he does act like an asshole sometimes. But this post is meant to illustrate that queer rep takes multiple forms, and unfortunately I think a lot of media just tends to fall back on stereotypical portrayals of queer people for the sake of broader appeal. And by consequence, the fandom’s idea of what constitutes queer rep narrows to same-sex romance, usually between two cis gay men.

With the release of Ep 9, I know a lot of people queer people are going to find representation in the Kojiro’s whole “unrequited love” thing. But personally, I feel more represented by Hiromi, his journey of self-acceptance and subversive relationship with gender- that’s what resonates with me as a trans person.

And I think it’s important to see that kind of less palatable type of queer representation more acknowledged in fandom, and in Sk8′s fandom especially, because I know the demographics of this fandom lean heavily queer.

But that’s all for now, lemme know what you guys think :)

[22degreehalo]

This is going to sound super fucking dumb and I haven't thought this through yet, but has anyone noticed in a lot of internet queer/progressive spaces this weird sorta pedestalisation of attraction to more masculine people. Like attraction to more masculine/dominant/muscular men and women being treated as inherently more transgressive or cool or whatever than the opposite?

I've seen it in a particular game subreddit where people are constantly complaining about the lack of fanservicey bara/daddy/muscular guys, often to the extent of being dismissive or outright mean towards 'pretty boy' characters. (Pretty boy characters are a bit more common, but not as much as the girls, and definitely not often drawn fanservicely.) Often with the assumption that non-muscular men could not possibly be sexy or desirable, so it's bad for """girls and gays""" to only be shown pretty boys. Hell, we got a femboy character recently and I even saw people complaining that he is 'for the straight guys' when he isn't even the 'literally indistinguishable from a cis girl' type. Likewise there was a meme a while back showing a twinkish catboy character surrounded by versions of a more masculine character, and literally EVERYONE was saying they wanted to be the twink - nobody would admit to finding the twink more attractive. Also see the constant posts about tomboys and muscular women. Posts about big boobed oneesan types are common but often complained about as just horniness, but posts about more moe type cute girls are rare, and moe art/characters are really heavily critiqued.

I've seen the same sort of thing in otome circles. More muscular men are always treated as superior, while girlier looking men tend to be treated very harshly and if they look within 5 years of the main character's age will get criticised for 'looking like a little kid.' Guys who are less dominant are constantly criticised as being 'too perfect' or 'boring'. And even among MCs, literally the only trait anyone ever seems to value is 'not taking any shit.' She HAS to be hyper competent and sassy and sarcastic or she'll get complained about as 'useless' and 'honestly she's so dumb she deserves the way the guys treat her.'

And in general phrases like 'I want her/him to step on me' and similarly submissive terms are everywhere, often treated as like normal and universal. Finally, I've noticed on lolgrindr that people seeking subs are treated with WAY greater harshness and scrutiny than the opposite, and the sub is absolutely filled with boomer style 'lol men suck and don't listen' stuff but reapplied to tops instead. Not to mention the EXTREME insistence that sapphic sexuality is Completely Different from straight male sexuality, which all apparently involves more masculine and dominant women instead.

I'm probably overthinking it but it feels like... a) attraction to or interest in nice, cute people is associated with Straight Male Sexuality and therefore inherently creepy and objectifying, and b) due to the spred of anti-ism any attraction to someone younger (or just younger-looking) than you is associated with pedophilia.

There's a weird almost counter culture aspect, where wanting someone who's kind and suppprtive is evidence of "fragile masculinity" so you have to be self-deprecating/'confidently non-fragile' enough to admit to wanting to be more submissive (e.g. 'I want a woman who can straight up kill me'). And even wanting a more cuter type partner because you yourself are like that, too (subverting dominant/submissive assumptions) just comes across like idk grooming by trying to act like you're innocent??

Also the bias against femboys is 100% at least in part the anti-femme bias that the queer community is known for.

I am probably COMPLETELY wrong here lmao. Obviously I prefer the more cuter type characters, both boys and girls, so I'm oversensitive to this. But. Idk. It feels weird.