#Mary Renault

[renaultphile]

This is such a great source! Although it is 'borrow unavailable' on the Internet Archive it is still searchable.

This really makes me wonder how much of this other material Mary Renault was aware of when she featured the Phaedrus so prominently in The Charioteer. This passage particularly struck me:

Even in the Phaedrus, Lysias’ speech and Socrates’ first speech flesh out serious and specific reflections on the harm that the wrong kind of pederasty could do a boy, suggesting that the concept of Platonic love was developed as a response to widespread censure. Texts such as the comic fragment 3.29 show that even in Plato’s own day, some were skeptical whether such a chaste pederasty could exist in reality; later satirical texts (6.48, 9.38, 10.10) take it for granted that these philosophical pretensions were fraudulent covers.

Greek homosexual activity, despite popular misconceptions, was not restricted to man-boy pairs. Vase-painting shows numerous scenes where there is little or no apparent difference in age between the young wooer and his object of courtship as well as graphic scenes of sexual experimentation between youths. Early poets such as Theognis (1.41, 1.65) and Pindar (1.86) make it clear that youths were attracted to and slept with other youths of the same age. Plato tells us that the young Charmides’ beauty provoked the admiration and love of everyone present, even the youngest boys (5.4.154). In the Phaedrus, Socrates quotes the proverb “youth delights youth” to imply that young men would prefer companions of their own age to older lovers (5.9.240). Xenophon shows Critobulus in love with Cleinias, a youth of the same age or perhaps even a bit older (5.8.4.23). Timarchus’ lover, Misgolas, appears to be the same age (4.7.49). In the Hellenistic period Meleager attests that boys were attractive to boys (6.40), and Quintilian worries about older boys corrupting younger boys in Roman schools (9.34).

Homosexuality In Greece And Rome: A Sourcebook of Basic Documents, edited by Thomas K. Hubbard

Sources referenced below the cut:

Theogonis 1.41

In youth you can sleep the night through with a friend,*

Unloading the desire for lusty action,

And you can go wooing and sing to a flute-girl’s tune—

No other thing is more thrilling than these

For men and women. What are wealth and honor to me?

Pleasure conquers all—and merrily.

Mindless men and fools weep for the dying

Instead of the blossom of youth that’s falling.

*The Greek makes it clear that the friend is an age-equal.

Theogonis 1.65

Boy, since the goddess Cypris gave you a lusty

Grace, and your beauty’s every boy’s concern,*

Listen to these words and for my sake take them to heart—

Knowing how hard it is for a man to bear desire.

*In other words, Cyrnus’ beauty arouses desire even among boys his own age.

Pindar 1.86

When Ephyrean¹ choristers pour out

My sweet voice around the Peneius,²

I expect by my songs to make the crowned Hippocleas

Still more splendid to look upon to both his age-mates and older men,

And a heartthrob for young maids. For

Different loves tickle the fancies of different folks.

Whatever each man reaches for,

If he wins it, let him hold as his desire an ambition near at hand;

Things a year in the future are impossible to foreknow.³

I have relied on the kind hospitality of Thorax, who, bustling about for my sake,

Yoked this four-horse chariot of the Muses,⁴

Favoring one who favors him, giving willing guidance to one who guides him.

To one who tests it, gold is revealed on the touchstone—

So too an upright mind.⁵

¹Ephyre was an ancient name of the Thessalian city of Krannon.

²The main river of Thessaly.

³The poet appears to be exhorting the boy not to be tempted by the other erotic opportunities that may be presented to him in his newly acquired glory, but to stick with his present good, namely Thorax.

⁴This expression is probably a metaphor for commissioning the present poem.

⁵In other words, Thorax’ virtue and devotion are proven by commissioning this poem (putting his gold to the test).

Plato 5.4.154

[...] You mustn’t judge by me, my friend. I’m a broken yardstick as far as handsome people are concerned, because practically everyone of that age strikes me as beautiful. But even so, at the moment Charmides came in he seemed to me to be amazing in stature and appearance, and everyone there looked to me to be in love with him, they were so astonished and confused by his entrance, and many other lovers followed in his train. That men of my age should have been affected this way was natural enough, but I noticed that even the small boys fixed their eyes upon him and no one of them, not even the littlest, looked at anyone else, but all gazed at him as if he were a statue. And Chaerephon called to me and said, “Well, Socrates, what do you think of the young man? Hasn’t he a splendid face?”

Plato 5.9.240

[...] But besides being harmful to his boyfriend, a lover is simply disgusting to spend the day with. ‘Youth delights youth,’ as the old proverb runs—because, I suppose, friendship grows from similarity, as boys of the same age go after the same pleasures. But you can even have too much of people your own age.

Xenophon 5.8.4.23

Hermogenes said, “Socrates, I do not consider it appropriate for you to overlook the fact that Critobulus has been so driven out of his senses by love.”

“Do you think,” said Socrates, “that he has been in this condition ever since he associated with me?”

“If not, since when?”

“Do you not see that the soft hair has recently crept alongside this one’s ears, while it already climbs from Cleinias’ chin towards the back.* Critobulus here was mightily inflamed before, when he went to the same school as Cleinias, [...]

*This suggests that Critobulus and Cleinias were both adolescents: if anything, Cleinias may have actually been a bit older. However, the interpretation of the Greek is disputed: others take the reference to be to hair on the nape of Cleinias’ neck. And 2.3 tells us that Critobulus is already married! Perhaps Critobulus is exaggerating his youthful appearance to imagine him-self as more like his beloved.

Aeschines 4.7.49

I want to say something else in advance, in case Misgolas obeys the laws and your authority. There are men who by their nature differ from others in their physical appearance as far as age is concerned. There are some men who though young appear mature and older, while others though old when one counts the years seem positively young. Misgolas is one of these. He is in fact a contemporary of mine and was an ephebe¹ with me; we are both in our forty-fifth year. And I myself have all these grey hairs that you see, but he doesn’t. Why do I give this advance warning? So that when you suddenly see him you will not be surprised and mentally respond: “Heracles! He is not much older than Timarchus!”² For it is a fact both that his appearance is naturally like this and that Timarchus was already a youth when Misgolas had relations with him. . . .

¹This refers to mandatory military service between the ages of eighteen and twenty.

²In fact, Timarchus seems also to be at least 45 at the time of this speech, judging from his service on the Council in 361 (mentioned in section 109); one had to be at least 30 to serve. Aeschines is apparently attempting to confuse the jurors and make Timarchus seem younger than Misgolas, whereas they were in fact the same age. Some commentators suspect textual corruption and think Aeschines and Misgolas were 54 rather than 45.

Meleager 6.40

Delicate Diodorus, casting a flame upon his young age-mates,

Has been caught by the flirtatious eyes of Timarion,*

And retains the sweet-bitter weapon of Eros. Truly, in this I see

A new wonder. Fire blazes bright burned by fire.

*A female courtesan.

Quintilian 9.34

I do not approve of younger and older boys sitting together in a classroom. For even if such a man as one would want is set over their studies and character and can keep the young modest, the weak should still be separated from the stronger, and not only the charge of moral turpitude, but even the suspicion of it should be avoided. I have considered that these matters should be briefly noted. That the teacher himself and his school be free from the worst vices I think hardly even needs to be said. And if there is anyone who in selecting a teacher does not avoid obvious moral misconduct, let him know that if this factor has been overlooked, everything else we try to devise for the benefit of the young is utterly futile.

[marcheriest]

kottabos (commission for a dear friend)

[nvd94]

‘You must tell me when I say the Persian wrongly. Don’t be afraid to correct me, or I shall never learn.’

I said I had thought he would never love me. I did not beg him to take me with him wherever he was going; I did not think so far. I was like a traveler in the desert,who comes to water.

The persian Boy- Mary Renault

[elishanelsonfanacct]

i love you / i fear you / i need you

mary renault, the national, white oleander, maggie nelson, heathers: the musical, margaret atwood, nikita kadan, jenny holzer, margaret atwood, ida aplebroog, simone weil (tr. arthur wills), richard siken, unknown, unknown, angela carter, the sopranos, mary oliver

[haveyoureadthisqueerbook]

[bb-8]

The Charioteer unabridged 1988 audiobook, narrated by Davina Porter

I've finished recording the cassettes, cleaning up the audio, and stitching the whole thing together! I've had to split it into two parts (each around 7.5 hours).

The tape was corrupted in 2 places near the end of chapter 6 that I have cleaned up as best as possible, but if there are any other issues with the content or playing/downloading it, please let me know!

To download the audiobook directly, here is a link to a Google Drive folder containing both audio files.

And I've also uploaded it to the Internet Archive, just in case something happens to the Drive. You can find a link to it here.

[catilinas]

if you don’t have weird freudian shit going on with your scapegoatable heir what’s even the point

[the-hearth-and-the-wild]

All tragedies deal with fated meetings; how else could there be a play? Fate deals its stroke; sorrow is purged, or turned to rejoicing; there is death, or triumph; there has been a meeting, and a change. No one will ever make a tragedy—and that is as well, for one could not bear it—whose grief is that the principals never met.

Mary Renault, The Mask of Apollo

[eldhuug]

My favourite book :-))

[alovelywaytospendanevening]

English-language covers of Mary Renault's The Charioteer, first published in 1953.

[monti-moth]

I only make memes about mildly obscure queer fiction written prior to 1970, thanks

[jeannereames]

POLL about Hephaistion

Redoing the Hephaistion poll after several answers reminded me you all are children of the internet. 😊 There wasn’t an internet until I was in my 20s, and even online bulletin boards weren’t much of a thing until I could legally drink. So, I removed a bunch of novels that were getting no votes to add several new options. (Edit to add: the only reason I left my own is that it got 2 votes in the prior poll; I'm not that egotistical.) I’d forgotten about Horrible Histories, which has a big following.

If you’ve already voted, please vote again. I deleted the prior poll. If you choose an option that asks you to specify, I’d love it if you’d do so in tags or comments (I'm honestly very curious about public history). These are in chronological order. Kinda. Left off fanfic as most people go to it after developing a fascination, and the old Pothos site + forum, once huge, has seriously dwindled. If either fits you, put it in tags.

PLEASE REPOST for wider responses.

[nothatsmi]

Considering you too are a fan of two very good book series (aftg and trc) do you happen to have any recs?

Hi Thank you for your trust.

I wouldn't say I have a rec that's in the same vibe as these two but i DO have a book rec, I read this a few weeks ago and it's really really really good, now please welcome on stage

The charioteer, by Mary Renault

It's a queer 1953 novel with everything one needs (hospitalized soldiers, male nurses, pretentious and/or mentally unstable queer friends, poetry books, windy countryside, sailors).

I would make fanart of it if I had free time. Hopefully someday I will.

Anyway, go read the the book, its's 100% worth it.

[alphab3tmafia]

been talking with Mary renault... we agree with these

[haveyoureadthisqueerbook]

[bb-8]

So I found the cassettes for the 1988 audiobook and made an impulse purchase! Would anyone be interested in me digitising these and uploading them?